June 25, 2025 • 40 mins
The most famous Hollywood face is everywhere you look. He’s on a super-charged comeback mission including a press junket, a podcast interview and a $300 million movie. But can you solve a problem like Brad Pitt? Mia, Jessie and Holly discuss on today's show.
Also, are you a maximiser or a satisficer? There's a new fascinating personality comparison on why women are more likely to end marriages.
Plus, there's one woman who has had the internet in a chokehold this week. Except… she’s been dead for 25 years. Why is Carolyn Bessette Kennedy all over the place right now and why are so many people feeling furious about it?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia Out Loud, where women come to debrief. I'm
Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
And I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
And here's what's made our agenda for today, Wednesday, the
twenty fifth of June. He's everywhere you look. He's on
a supercharged comebat mission. But how do we solve a
problem like Brad.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Pitt plus, are you a maximizer or a satisficer? The
fascinating theory on why women are more likely to end
marriages and what it has to do with how long
you take to look at the menu at a restaurant.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
And the woman who is obsessing a certain corner of
the Internet this week has been dead for twenty five years.
So why is Carolnbusset Kennedy suddenly everywhere? And why are
so many people feeling furious about it?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
But first, the President of the United States crashed out
this morning. That's another term that might also be called
lost his shit.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Emotional dysregulation.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yes, very emotionally dysregulated in a very reassuring display at
reporters on the White House lawn on the way to
the Netherlands for the NATO summit. This is what he
said about what's unfolding between Iran and Israel, and we
basically have two countries that have been fighting so long
and so hard that they don't know what the fuck
(01:36):
they're doing. You understand that he was upset because twenty
four hours before he'd told the world that he'd sorted
that stuff out. Just like that, everyone had listened to him.
They backed off, they'd gone to their corners. Guess what
they didn't.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
He's the anti war president, right he is.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Mia is Trump less worried about escalating hostilities and casualties
than he is about not getting a certain trophy he's
desperate for.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Well, if you're wondering why he's suddenly so fixated on
peace and why he's branding himself the anti war president,
you might not know. You might have missed the fact
that he's been petitioning to win the Nobel Peace Prize.
Is this real citizens satire? He's actually been nominated five
times over the last five years. You have to get
(02:19):
nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. I'm not sorrying if
you can nominate yourself, but various people have nominated him,
including the Pakistan government this year. He wrote on the
Truth social platform on Friday Night, which he owns conveniently,
he says, no, I won't get a Nobel Peace Prize
no matter what I do, including Russia, Ukraine and Israel
(02:40):
I ran, whatever those outcomes may be. But the people
know and that's all that matters to me.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
That's what you say when you really want to win
something and you're not going to win it, You're like,
I don't care. I didn't care anyway.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I didn't want it.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I didn't even want it. When he really, really really.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Wants stranger things have happened, he could win a Nobel
Peace Prize. I mean if this cease fire hold, which
you know at the time of recording, hopefully it will.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
We're saying a lot of Dick's winging, and what's being lost,
I think is the loss of civilian life in all
of this conflict, and I'm not seeing that in you know,
a lot of the Trump coverage. Civilians are not their government,
and I think I would like to make space. I
think a lot of out louders probably feel like this
for the position of deep grief and distress and an
(03:22):
acknowledgment of just all the innocent people who have lost
their lives and continue to every day. And Trump can
say those words, and he can swear on the lawn
or whatever, but the reality is these are real human
beings with real lives, and the scale of the tragedy
is unimaginable.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
What do we do with a problem like Brad Pitt.
He's everywhere at the minute, looming like a craggy, middle
aged Donnis on billboards, pop up ads, on podcasts, photoshoots,
in my dreams, but not about me. I'm talking about
Brad Pitt because everyone is. He is on the promotional
tour for his first like mega mega movie in decades.
(04:11):
Right f one, you would have seen this about It's
about cars, Jesse, You'd love it.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I'm really into it now that I'm a Formula one expert.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I'm also watching Drive to Survive, so I've got skin
in this game.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
He's also jumping on the very fast bandwagon. It cost
a sickening three hundred million US dollars to make this film.
That's a lot of money, and it's directed by the
same dude, and dude is the word, because these are
real dude movies. Although I have to say I love
this one Top grand Maverick, which is the one that
this guy directed that also cost you know, the GDP
of a small nation, but it made more than one
(04:41):
and a half billion dollars at the box office. And
so that's the kind of pressure that's on a Brad
Pitt at the moment. It's like, if this movie costs
this much, you've got to do a tom cruise and
bring the dollar dollar bills in the door. And that's
why we're seeing him tap dancing everywhere.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
The problem is that this is the first major major
press tour that Pit's done really since this I'm about
to read a couple of lines from a court document
about the incident that is now nine years old between
him and Angelina Jolie and their children on a private
jet going from France to la and I also want
(05:20):
to say that these documents have been read in court.
He has never explicitly denied this happened. He has made
comments Pitt through his lawyers that you know, he feels
like he's been victimized by Jolie and their divorce proceedings,
but he has never denied this account explicitly. Pitt pulled
her into the bathroom and began yelling at her. He
grabbed her by the head and shook her, and then
he grabbed her by the shoulders and pushed her into
(05:41):
the bathroom wall. One of the children, who were between
eight and fifteen at the time, verbally defended Jolie, the
countersuit says, and Pitt lashed out. He lunged at his
own child, and Jolly grabbed him from behind to stop him.
To get Jolie off his back, Pit threw himself backwards
and into the airplane's seat, injuring Jolie's back and elbow.
The children rushed in and all bravely tried to protect
(06:03):
each other. Before it was over, Pitt choked one of
the children and struck another in the face. Now, Pitt
disputes a lot of Jolie's account, and ever since what
happened in their divorce, their relationship been going on a
long time. They had six kids together, and she has
said since that there was other violence in that relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Can I ask you a question about that, because some
people say when this comes up, which in invariably does,
particularly at the moment, they'll say this never went to court,
which is true.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It's quite weedy because the FBI got involved because originally
these were all part of really redacted court documents that
protected the identity of everybody in it, and then that
got leaked and Jolie's thought that there was something dodgy
about that, so then she was bringing a case against
the FBI. It's very like muddy Waters got it. But
what we do know is that Pitt has never explicitly
(06:55):
denied that right that particular incident he said I won't
take through his lawyers. He's never really spoken much about
it at all. To be fair, it's not like he
has been trashing her publicly. The leaks are enormous.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
His people have been really smearing her over a really
long period of time. I think that's pretty well known.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, but she's been I mean, like they're both. I'm
not defending him, but I'm just saying that this is
a very for nine years now, this has been a
very very messy situation. Yeah, he is not saying that
didn't happen. So let's assume, as the courts do, that
that did happen, right, The point I'm trying to make
is that whatever all that he said, she said, is
(07:34):
he did that? Yeah, and so what does that mean? Well,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It certainly seems that way. And it's also worth admitting
to the public record that of their six children, I
think four of them have legally changed their name because
they're over eighteen to drop the pit from their names,
and none of them have been seen publicly with him
since then.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
He's estranged from all his kids, so he's not denying that.
So how do you handle that? Back to the problem
of Brad Pitt, how do you handle the fact that
one of the most famous and high profile love affairs
marriages families of all time fell apart under a huge
dark cloud of abuse allegations. How do you handle that
and go on to be mister three hundred million dollar movie.
(08:15):
That is the question here right in a way what
Pitt has decided to do. It's clear I'm not necessarily
being cynical in this is play. That's not who I
am anymore. Most notably, he's talked about getting sober. There
was a lot of alcohol in that. In the account
of that about him drinking heavily, he says he's got sober,
he's in a AA And this week he went on
(08:36):
Dak Shepherd's Armchair Expert podcast, where he spoke to Dax
and Monica about very little. Actually the words wife would
never mention. The children were never mentioned, and normally Dax
talks a lot about kids because he's a very much
a dad, dad guy. None of that was mentioned. They
talked a lot about cars, but he did reveal Dak
Shepherd that he and Brad are in the same men's
(08:58):
AA group in Hollywood. And this is what Brad said
about Dak's reaching out to him to invite him to
their circle.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
You know, I was in pretty it's pretty much on
my back, yeah, you know, on my knees, and I
was really open to I was trying anything and everyone, anything,
anyone throughout me. It was a particular difficult time. I
needed rebooting. I needed to wake the fuck up in
some areas. And it just meant a lot to me.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So the Hollywood narrative is clear, even without spelling it out.
I fucked up. I sorted my shit out. I'm trying
to be a better man. Let's move on. What do
we make of it?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I struggle with that narrative and with men talking about
AA and addiction recovery as this personal triumph without any
acknowledgment of what lays in their wake, whether that is
children and women that are hurt, which often are, and
so it just becomes this really one note narrative. You know,
(09:58):
there's a quote in that interview where he says, when
I've stepped in shit, I'm pretty good at taking responsibility
for it. And it's basically like I'm stubborn, but I
own my failures and blah blah bla, And it comes
off like Brad Pitt deserves a round of applause, right,
And I think that there's a clue in what you
were saying, Holly about sort of the pr machine around
(10:19):
Brad Pitt, which is the three hundred million dollars when
three hundred million dollars hinges on us all not forgiving,
but putting aside the allegations against Brad Pitt, that machine
is going to work really, really hard because he's not
only an actor, but he's a producer. And interestingly, he
was a producer on adolescence and that was quiet. That
(10:41):
was only like a little.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
He produces lots, he produces.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Lots, but I think that he's taken in those instances,
he's taken a bit of a backseat and let the
projects speak for you.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
You can't do that when you're the star, and you
can't do it.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
So you are not going to risk that film bombing
because people go, I can't look at that man for
two hours or whatever. And so I'm finding the stylist
information really interesting. Maya, can you explain to me the
stylist kind of analysis that's coming out?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
So it's interesting. When you think about Brad Pitt, you
would think of a kind of a scruffy you know,
he's a very good looking but not a fashion plate.
He's almost counterprogrammed his good looks. He came up as
this heart throb, and he's always worked against that by
really not paying much attention to his clothes or publicly.
Although in an interview when he was still married to Angelina,
(11:33):
she gave a comment to a reporter who was asking
her about getting ready in all the kids and everything,
and she made a comment which was really interesting. She said,
Brad always takes longer to get ready than me. And
I've thought about that a lot since it became known
in the last few months that for this whole rehabilitation
press tour, he's hired Timothy Chalome's stylist, and that's taking
(11:57):
a big swing. And if you've seen some of the shots,
the guy's what sixty one, I think he's just turned
sixty one. He's dressing in a way that is very
celebrity well main character, main fashion character.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
The tied eye number, which was like a tied eyed
T shirt with like a tight eye pant, and then
like the blue velvet jacket. It's not what we know,
Brad Pitt.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
It's not. And if you were looking at this cynically
or perhaps pragmatically, you would say, how do you draw
attention away from all of this? You have a beautiful girlfriend.
He's got a girlfriend who's been with for quite some
time and names Ines de Ramon. She is a sales
associate for a high and jewelry company. She looks quite
a lot like Ama Clooney actually, and they've been seen
(12:43):
out and about together. They went public about a year ago.
He's outside a lot, so they're being photographed together a lot.
He's drawing a lot of attention with his clothes. There's
a lot for people to be distracted by yeah, and
I think that's very strategic.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
It's so interesting because like a lot of gen X women,
like Brad Pitt is an icon, Like here's an absolute
icon to me. You know, Felmer and Luise. That made
a very big impression at a very impressionable age, and
then you think about the movies that he's been in,
you think about that career. True cancelation, in a way
is when you can, as you said before, Jesse, you
(13:21):
can no longer look at that person without thinking about
a lot of very disturbing shit. That is certainly the
way I feel about Johnny Depp these days. I used
to be a big Johnny Depp fan once upon a time.
I can't. I just can't watch him now being Jack Sparrow,
being anything. Everything about him is it now and I
can't look at him. Brad Pitt is not quite Johnny
(13:43):
Depp character yet. He's not guzzling red wine for breakfast
and winging about being a victim like he's not that
he's going on these kind of shows and a very relatable,
I think, repentant, although he doesn't spell out his like
I'm sorry I did this, I'm sorry I did that.
The whole vibe about AA. It's about taking responsibility for
your fuck ups. He's taking a very repentant thing. But
(14:07):
then I like to play a little game in my head,
which I know is simplistic, but it's called let's imagine
Brad Pitt was a woman, and let's imagine that there
was a very high profile actress who many moons ago
publicly cheated on her much beloved famous husband, went off
and built a family with somebody else. Obviously, the physical
abuse thing is hard to gender flip, but let's imagine
(14:29):
that that marriage fell apart in acrimonious, drawn out things,
and then she was now estranged from her six children
that she'd had in that marriage. Is she getting offered
three hundred million dollar movies? It's laughable, It's not even it's.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Not just estranged. Remember when I think it was his
eldest child posted on Instagram on Father's Day basically being like,
my dad is an asshole. Like he just essentially just
sprayed him on social media. So you can imagine how
those kids kind of feel about him.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
You know this sense, I've got it of it. Jesse
is like, you know, Michelle Obama's when they go low,
we go hi when they split. In custody, Brad got
Hollywood all the reasons that you said, Wow, he's a producer,
his box office, he's clooney, here's the power in that
he was always the power and together they were amazing
(15:22):
and you know, a huge story. But he got custody
of Hollywood, and he also got custody essentially of public opinion,
because there are a lot of people who still have
not forgiven Angelina Jali for what she did to Jennifer Anniston,
even though she wasn't married at the time he was.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
And remember he got up since this happened, and we
didn't know yet about these allegations, but since that happened,
he's won an Oscar and he stood on stage and
he said, I'm going to add this to my Tinder
profile and then he said, oh, a movie about a
divorce and this and a that like really hard like
he made kind of jokes about this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And he was well known to have had a team
of writers when he was on that award circuit. All
his speeches at every awards ceremony were knockout, which is fine,
that's all part of campaigning. But it's so interesting that
he's got this kind of I don't care, you know,
I just happened to be very good looking and very successful.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
But there's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Paddling that goes under the surface. But back to the
low and high. I feel like what Angelina Jolie's done
is that she's chosen the children. So she's the one
that said, I'm not going to speak the truth. I'm
not going to tell people what really happened because I
don't want to distress the children and I want to
protect the children. And she's suffered for that and he hasn't.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Before we move on, can we please talk about this
Simone Ashley story, because I keep saying the headlines everywhere
that she has been doing so much press for this
F one movie. We should say Simone Ashley, she was
in Bridgeton, she was in sex Education. She's really on
the rise, but this F one movie was meant to
be like her big break. And she provided all these
comments to the media. She'd an interview with Variety where
(17:00):
she was like, it's so exciting to be cast in
this movie.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
That's a big break for her. She's very much a
rising star. Was she the love interest or a love interest?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
I don't even know Mayor, and you know why, I
don't know, because she has been completely cut from the film.
People went watched the film after watching her doing all
of this promotional stuff, and she's in the background in
like a couple of shots or whatever, doesn't have any
speaking roles. And what people are really annoyed about is
that they're going, this is a movie predominantly about men,
right like It's f one is very much about men
(17:32):
are in the driver's seat, men are behind the scenes.
A lot of women watch it, but what the director
appeared to do was kind of simone. Ashley did an
exclusive interview with Variety about the film about being cast
in the film in July last year, and then speaking
with Glamour, she was talking about the director and she said,
he was so open to hearing my ideas about the
character and what it means to be a female character
(17:53):
within a story like this. I love seeing more women
in the driver's seat. And then she's been cut.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
The optics of that are terrible. Jesse, did I not
see her on the red carpet for the premere and then.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
She turned up on a red carpet recently, which I
don't fully understand.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
The ball of move.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
It's a ball move because by that point I think
she knew she wasn't in it. I didn't know this
was even a thing. I've heard about actors who turn
up to the premiere watch it and they're like, oh,
I was cut. I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Apparently it's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah. When we went to the Strife screening with the
cast for season two and for season one, they hadn't
seen it before, so they didn't know how much they
were going to be in it, which, yeah, I was
shocked by that too. But oh, Samie Ashley's extraordinary. If
you want to see some of her best work season
two of.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Bridges and oh, she's amazing in a moment, Are you
a maximizer or a satisficer? And if you think I'm
saying that weird, I will explain what that word actually means.
We'll tell you after the break. Are you a maximizer
or a satisficer?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
I keep thinking that you're saying satisfier but with a
speech in perfect can.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I just explain that this is a word that is
a mix of two words, which is satisfier and suffice,
And so that's why there's a wed on the end,
and I'm saying it's slightly wrong every time. I just
think we've got to put that on the table.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
It's not a real word. It's constructed. Yea.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I learned these two terms recently while listening to a
philosopher named Agnes Callard talk about marriage. Have either of
you ever heard an interview with her or read the
New York.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Times profile one time?
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Okay, she's this really interesting philosopher. She's with her husband,
long term relationship, two kids, very happy, happy relationship. She
then goes to work and she starts working with this
new guy. Things are fine, she has an interesting relationship
with him, and then she goes into work one day
and this guy is a little bit younger than her
says I've fallen in love with you.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And she's this in real life.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
This is in real life, this is her real story.
And she looks at him and goes, oh wow, I
think I've fallen in love with you too. She walks
out of that kind of interaction and she goes, what
am I to do? She's a philosopher, right, So she
thinks about this stuff a lot, and she goes up
to her husband a few days later, and goes, I
think I've fallen in love with someone else, and I
don't know what to do. So she just tried kind
(20:07):
of honesty to see what happened. And her husband, also
a philosopher.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
When shout on a mountain, thought.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
About it and just kind of when that happens in relationships, right,
So she leads a husband for this new guy, and
then the interesting point is that she now lives in
a house with her ex husband, the two kids, and
the new.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Guy, and I bet no voice is are raised. There's
just a lot of thoughtful comments there is there is
anyway she's still romantically involved with her ex husband.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
No, no, so they yes, yes, She's like, I love him.
She's got a really interesting view of romantic love where
she's like it's a way of experiencing and exploring a
new identity, like I've become a different person with this
version of And she has this quote that was like,
thinking is something we do out loud with other people anyway,
(21:01):
really mayor on a podcast, exactly right, thinking is something
I do with you bitches. So story is fascinating, and
I recommend you read the New York Times profile. But
she'll about when it comes to marriage. She is a maximizer,
and she thinks that so are most women. A maximizer
is aspirational. They want the absolute best. They want the marriage,
(21:21):
the friendship's, the workplace to be perfect. They think there's
kind of an optimal experience, right. Satisfices, on the other hand,
are good enough people. They settle, they make decisions quickly,
they don't get hung up on the best outcome. And
she says this is why it's often women who end
marriages because they want more whereas men are and this
(21:44):
is enormous generalization content with good enough. And she talks
about this analogy of kind of going to a restaurant
and the menu, and she says that satisfices will take
one look at the menu or they'll say, you know
what you order for me? I don't care, like there
is no optimal decision whatever, And the maximizer will fret
they're the one who looks up the menu before you go,
because they're just like I think I can make the
(22:06):
best decision.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
They need to optimize everything.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yes, exactly right, and get the maximum out of every experience.
Does this ring true to you?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yes, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Are you a maximizer?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
No?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Really, I'm not a maximizer. When I was looking at
the definitions here and they said things like a maximizer,
if they're going to buy a car, a washing machine,
or lunch, they will do all of the research. They
will stew over it because they can't bear the idea
that they might buy the dishwasher and then find out
tomorrow that there's one that has half a star more
(22:39):
rating somewhere. Yeah, that is not me. I am not
even a little bit like that, No way, I reckon.
There are areas in my life where I'm a maximizer,
but I'm not an across the board maximizer. So not
the dishwasher. But yes, lunch, I will walk past twenty
five sandwich shops to go to the one that has
the thing that I deem the best. But I don't
(23:01):
like doing lots of research. I don't like stewing on
things till they're perfect. So no, I don't think I'm
a maximizer. How about you, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I'm also a satisfycer, I think because even though inherently
I think women, as you say, are programmed for self optimization,
Like there's a reason that self help is so big
with women it's women who are constantly trying to optimize.
Improve our appearance, improve our careers, improve our wardrobe, improve
(23:32):
our relationships, improve our friendships, improve our personalities. I think
that's because society tells us, and we've internalized this idea
that we're not good enough and that there's something lacking
in us and that we need to be better. Whereas
I think from a male point of view, they are
(23:52):
told by society that they're pretty great.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, no matter what, no matter how they look, no
matter what they do.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
It's like we're interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
So Callard has written a lot about aspiration, and her
definition of someone being aspirational is as soon as you
get to the point of appreciating that thing that you've
aspired to pretty well, you are sort of itching for
something new.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Oh, in areas of my life one hundred percent. See
I think this unless you are personally programmed. And some
people definitely are to care equally about all the things
and they have to have the best of absolutely everything.
Most of us probably are maximizers in areas we care
about more than others. So like in work, I reckon
I'm probably a maximizer. Like I care a lot, I
(24:35):
work really hard. I'm ambitious, I strive. But if I
put my hand on my heart, could I say I'm
like that in all my relationships, my friendships, my family relationships.
Am I trying every day to be the best friend,
the best partner, the best lover, the best daughter. No.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Experts say, Holly, that you're healthy. Experts say that what
you want is for the high stakes decisions.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Those maybe.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
The high stakes decisions we're meant to be maximizers. And
then for the little things that don't really matter.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Like our relationship.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Exactly, don't worry about those. And experts says that's really
important that maximizers do better but are less happy. And
I found that quite interesting, because I think I'm a maximizer, right.
I think that not in everything, as you say, Holly,
but I certainly think that. I get to a point
and then I start getting itchy again, and then I go,
(25:31):
all right, I've got to maximize. I need to make
this situation or this relationship or whatever more optimal, more perfect.
And I can get quite paralyzed by wanting to make
the perfect decision. But the irony is that even if
you make better decisions, and even if you end up
landing on your feet in a really good job. Because
you did all of that analysis, you're less happy and
(25:53):
satisfices are more happy with shitter decisions. So what's the matter?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Because I think that's true.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I think that sometimes too much choice, too much opportunity,
can make you feel unsatisfied if you always think there's
something better out there, you know, like the person who
orders and then they look at what everybody else got
and they're like, oh damn, yours looks better than mine.
Like I don't hold onto things like I'm just like
I'm the person who looks at the menu like yeah,
(26:21):
that'll do.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
But my partner Brenn is definitely such a fice sung Jesus,
it's been ten minutes and still can't get it right
in that that classic example of menus and it drives
me nuts is will sit down to eat and I
will have looked at it and decided and gone, yeah,
that sounds great, and then he just goes, yeah that
sounds good, me too, And it drives me nuts. I'm
(26:43):
like your own he doesn't care more aspirational. He's also
gonna like whatever it is, you know what I mean, Like,
he's not gonna care I see.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I'm the opposite. So my thing is anyone that takes
too long to order, and I'm just like, just fucking
order anything like I didn't it just because I'm married
to a maximizer who wants everything, has very high standards,
and wants everything to be the best.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
My mum has a mantra that I try to live
by because she knows better than anyone, and she says,
the best decision is the decision you make.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yes, I'm like, don't let perfect be the enemy of
done friends. As the only vegetarian on this podcast, I
have appointed myself our nature correspondent. Okay, well, I don't
care that much about nature, but I care about animals
in particular.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
And I'll have it on the record. I also care
about animals. Do you.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Like to stop eating them? Jesse? That's all I'm going
to say. I have an Orca update.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Were they wearing salmona's hats?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yes? Orca's are killer whales and they have just been
filmed making tools out of kelp to give each other massages.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
No, they worry me, Holly, really clever. They're too clever.
They're cleverer than we are.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
What's happened is that Michael Wice, who is a research
director of the Center for Whale Research in the US,
says that it is certainly the first case of a cetacean,
which is a whale, dolphin, or porpoise, finding an object
in their environment, modifying that object and using it as
a tool, not just any tool, though, a tool for
pleasuring other workers.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
They're evolving too far, they are.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
They getting smarter all the time.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I don't think it's a sexy massage. I think it's
just a nice massage. But they filmed these interactions with
drone cameras in the Salish Sea, which is the Canadian
province of British Columbia in Washington. In case you're wondering
why they do it, doctor Weese says, it's clearly not
just a strange, quirky, one off behavior. It is a
part of their social lives. Yes, no, yes, they're maximizers.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
They're maximizers.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
That's so true. And I've read that they're like highly social.
So what remember recently it was like killer whales kept
attacking boats. It was like contagious. And then if they
want to take over the world, I'd be very concerned,
I think.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
And they were wearing Salmona's hats, weren't they after the break?
If you're wondering why a tall, blonde woman who died
twenty five years ago very tragically is suddenly making people furious,
her name is Carolmbusset Kennedy, and I will be taking
questions in a moment one.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
On limit did it out Loud Access? We drop episodes
every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow
the link at the show notes to get us in
your ears five days a week, and a huge thank
you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Carolyn Bessett Kennedy has long been a fascination among a
certain group of women, of which I am one. She
became very famous in the early nineties when she started
dating and then married JFK. Junior, before they both died
tragically alongside her sister in a plane crash he was
(29:51):
piloting a plane there on their way to Martha's vineyard
in nineteen ninety nine, and ever since then she has
remained this icon of minimalist style that's really emblematic of
the nineties. Hold do you remember much of her from
that time?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I remember that wedding photo, there's only one photo from
their wedding, or there's a very iconic one where they're
coming out of what looks like the most humble little
weatherboard white chapel ever, and she's wearing just this very
simple bias cut dress. And the thing is is at
the time in that certainly in the late eighties, style
(30:28):
was more and more and more and more more like wet.
Celebrity wedding dresses were bigger than a house, you know,
and everything was more like Trump was big, right, so
gold toilets and all that stuff, and she was the antithesis.
She was very simple, very beautiful. I was thinking it
was a bit depressing in a way, how elevated she
is as an icon because she is like skinny, blonde,
waspy lady. But then I remember my obsession with Gwyneth,
(30:49):
and I told myself to sit down, because she's very Gwyneth, right, Yeah,
like she was very good style before Gwyneth.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Can I ask why we are hearing so much about
her at the moment? She feels very in the ZEITGEI.
So there was that book that's recently come out about her.
You and Amelia were talking.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
About so, I mean her stories actually depletely tragic, because
if you think about Princess Diana and Meghan Markle, like
early Diana without any of the confidence. Meghan Michael's not
quite right in terms of she was very confident and
she was a famous actress, and she's been very comfortable
with public attention, obviously not the trolling. But Carolyn Besset
Kennedy never wanted to be famous. She worked for Calvin
(31:29):
Klein behind the scenes. She never did an interview, I
don't think, and she was absolutely stalked and harassed by paparazzi.
So they lived in New York and she was on
the street everywhere. So there's a very limited number of
photos of her and every outfit that she wore back
in the nineties, you could look at it now, it
would look current now, and it's weirdly always looked current
(31:51):
ever since the early nineties.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
So why am I seeing stuff about like a movie
coming out and people are mad about the movie exactly?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
So what's happened is that Ryan Murphy, who is the
producer of all kinds of huge, big Hollywood things, He's
got a series deal with Netflix. He's making a show
called American Love Story, which is either a series or
a film I'm not sure for streaming about JFK Jr.
And carolmber Set Kennedy because it was hugely part in
(32:21):
that same way when Diana died, all of the world
and the UK went into shock and grief the Kennedys
like American royalty, and when he died tragically and suddenly
all these things about the Kennedy curse and the women
who encountered the Kennedy's and what happens to them. So
there's been absolute public fascination. It was super smart of
him to decide to make this show about them. However,
(32:45):
on the weekend last weekend, he released a series of
photos of the actor and actress who've been cast to play.
A newcomer called Paul Kelly's playing JFK. Junior, and an
actress I'm not familiar with called Sarah Pigeon is playing
carolynber Set Kennedy. Now, he says they were just camera tests.
Everyone went nuts. The color of the hair was wrong,
(33:07):
the burken bag that she was carrying was the clothes
she was wearing. And since then they've started filming on
the streets of New York and people have just ripped
into the actress for not looking right. Karen Beusset, Kennedy's
original hairstylist, a guy called Brad Johns who's retired now.
He came out and said, the hair is completely wrong. Like,
this is a woman who is there's a cult around her,
(33:30):
and I would say I'm part of that.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
The cult is only about what she looks like. Nobody
hardly ever talks about what she was like. You know,
there's a little bit out there about yees new bit neurotic,
maybe there was some you know, like people have speculated
and said lots of uncharitable things, But it's what she
looks like that everybody's particularly obsessed with. So if the
hair color, and it's a very particular rich girl blonde
(33:54):
right of the time, is half a shade wrong, it's
a big deal.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
People feel insulted. People are like, you have all this
reference material, So much of what we know about her
is coded from photos.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
As you said, they all paparatta.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, and some of those outfits still exist, and you know,
various people own them, they've bet some of them being auctioned.
So Ryan Murphy had to address the backlash because it
was really full on a lot of my group chats
with people who are also obsessed with her have lit up.
I'm in a subreddit called John and Carolyn, who has
absolutely gone off. I was in it beforehand, just anyway,
(34:30):
I followed quite a few Instagram accounts. He came out
and said he was clearly quite shocked about all of this,
Ryan Murphy, and he said, Carolyn Bassett is clearly a
religious figure, and it's a religion of her own. When
narrating the story of an unknown individual who falls in
love with the most famous man in the world and
suddenly she can't leave her house, she was constantly photographed
being insulted by the paparazzi. They're doing to our Caroline
(34:52):
what they did to the real life Caroline. It is
unjust cool.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
That's so true.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
This casting thing though, exactly what happened with the Crown.
Remember they cast Diana ELIZABETHA Becky, Yeah, and they got
really mad because they went not.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Been good for this.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
She would have a little bit too old, though, Elizabeth Tibiki.
But you're right. I mean there are a number of actresses,
which of course everyone's always been talking who would you
cast if you were going to cast the actor that
they've chosen. I'm not familiar with her, I don't know
her work. Obviously, Ryan Murphy's pretty good at what he does.
I don't think you would have cast about actress, but
your right hole. It's so coded in how she looks,
(35:28):
and people are upset that she doesn't quite look right.
And then the outfits that she was perhaps wearing on
the street while they were filming. People are saying, it's
like Temu Carolyn Bissett Kennedy that she's wearing like cheap
satin skirt and converse. The thing most people are insulted
by is that they showed her with like a pleath blazer,
a black topic chocolate brown, nasty, cheap kind of bias
(35:51):
cut skirt in satin, and a high top black converse,
and like I could honestly recite to you every outfit
she's ever worn. I could identify them. I could, And
it's like, how can they have got this so wrong?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
There's probably the difference between and maybe what we've seen
now the test stuff, as you say, a very good
costume department and are not so good costume department, Because
the thing is is you can wear someone else's clothes
like I could dresses mea today. Right, But if I
don't have a deep understanding, and Mia obviously has a
very specific style that Mia has about her style, I'm
going to get it wrong. I'm going to get the
shirt's not going to be quite the right kind of oversize,
(36:26):
you know what I mean. There's very specific details, and
surely the really good costumers of the world understand that deeply. Right.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
He says, there's a ten person wardrobe committee, including people
who have these Instagram accounts that have been going for
twenty years. I think because there's a finite number of
photos with her, because she tragically died so young, everybody
is so so ingrained with these images, and anything that
doesn't fit exactly people feel really insulted by. But it's
(36:55):
interesting because it raises these issues of accuracy and taste,
but also of ethics, because Jack Schlosberg, who is JFK
Junior's nephew, the son of his sister, has come out
and said, this is grotesque what Ryan Murphy's doing. Family
of JFK Junior wasn't consulted. Presumably Carolen Bessett's family weren't
consulted either. We hope you're going to donate some money
(37:16):
to the JFK Junior Memorial Fund or whatever it is.
And Ron Murphy came out and said, yes, we did
do that, and he's not trying to upset anyone, but like,
is it is all a bit dicky. And I say,
this is someone who has poured over photos of her
for all these years, and I've been thinking so much
about her poor mother who lost two daughters in that crash,
and one of them was a twin, and her twin
(37:37):
sister is still alive, Lisa Bessett, And yeah, I just
think about them, like we've fetishized the image of this
dead woman and she was a person, as you say, Holly. Anyway,
it's coming out on Netflix, presumably in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Friends Before we Go. Megan Markle has released a rose
or Azam Vernam likes to call it bitch dsl oh, yeah,
do we like a rose?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I love a rose. I have a basic bitch, like
a very dry rose. I will be drinking Meghan's if
I can get my sticky little pause.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I was worried that you would say that, because holy
the cost of the rose plus a seventy five dollars
shipping to the regional town of New South Wales where
you live. Is not a good use of money, and
Maya and I need to intervene.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
How much is more energy?
Speaker 3 (38:25):
I don't even know because it's coming out on the
first of July. And you might ask Jesse, why is
that date significant? Well, let me tell you it would
be Princess Diana's sixty fourth birth.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Speaking of capitalizing on the image, I disagree, as that
was her mother in law.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Some people are going, you know, it's a significant date,
and apparently that's when Meghan and Harry first met off,
first reached out to each other. It's a significant date
for them and their love story. I think it's just summer.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Because is a summer thing. You got to wait for
summer season. The thing is is this is genius on
Megan's part, because every savvy celebrity knows that if you
want the female market release of Bloody Rose, Brad and
Angelina have a Rose. It's been one of the many
things that.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
One thing they can't resolve in their divorce.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
It's good. It's called miravale. I have drunk much of it.
Drew barrmol has one, Kylie Minogue has one, Jessica Parker
has one.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
We have one.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
That's what I was going to say. I think we
should start a rose.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Can we call it bitch.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Anyone's listening and you have a winery or or a
wine manufacturer, We're interested in making our own. Out loud
bitch Diesel come at us, Let's.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Come out massive. Thank you out louders for being with
us here on our Wednesday show where we have traversed
all kinds of territory really from water Rose to Brad
Pitt like I mean really Orcas. It's been a lot
and that's what we hope you expect from us. Thank
you to all of you for listening and to our
team for putting it together. Please remember, if you are
looking at us on social or of course on YouTube,
(39:52):
our studio is a styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com, dot a you to
find out more about that. We're going to be back
in yours tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
But if you want something else to listen to, then
on yesterday's Subscribe episode, Holly and Burnham and I discussed
last meeting theory, and that's about if you've ever had
a relationship or a friendship with someone and you've had
a really monumental last meeting, or you feel like you
keep running into them. I haven't been.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Seeing this on social everywhere. You're going to explain it
to me.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
We're going to explain it. And also, for some reason,
I'm a real sucker for this, and I have some
really creepy coincidental stories that I share. Holly is a
little more skeptical as always. Will pop a link in
the show notes.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
See you tomorrow, Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Shout out to any Mum and me a subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia Out Loud, where women come to debrief. I'm
Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
And I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
And here's what's made our agenda for today, Wednesday, the
twenty fifth of June. He's everywhere you look. He's on
a supercharged comebat mission. But how do we solve a
problem like Brad.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Pitt plus, are you a maximizer or a satisficer? The
fascinating theory on why women are more likely to end
marriages and what it has to do with how long
you take to look at the menu at a restaurant.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
And the woman who is obsessing a certain corner of
the Internet this week has been dead for twenty five years.
So why is Carolnbusset Kennedy suddenly everywhere? And why are
so many people feeling furious about it?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
But first, the President of the United States crashed out
this morning. That's another term that might also be called
lost his shit.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Emotional dysregulation.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yes, very emotionally dysregulated in a very reassuring display at
reporters on the White House lawn on the way to
the Netherlands for the NATO summit. This is what he
said about what's unfolding between Iran and Israel, and we
basically have two countries that have been fighting so long
and so hard that they don't know what the fuck
(01:36):
they're doing. You understand that he was upset because twenty
four hours before he'd told the world that he'd sorted
that stuff out. Just like that, everyone had listened to him.
They backed off, they'd gone to their corners. Guess what
they didn't.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
He's the anti war president, right he is.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Mia is Trump less worried about escalating hostilities and casualties
than he is about not getting a certain trophy he's
desperate for.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Well, if you're wondering why he's suddenly so fixated on
peace and why he's branding himself the anti war president,
you might not know. You might have missed the fact
that he's been petitioning to win the Nobel Peace Prize.
Is this real citizens satire? He's actually been nominated five
times over the last five years. You have to get
(02:19):
nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. I'm not sorrying if
you can nominate yourself, but various people have nominated him,
including the Pakistan government this year. He wrote on the
Truth social platform on Friday Night, which he owns conveniently,
he says, no, I won't get a Nobel Peace Prize
no matter what I do, including Russia, Ukraine and Israel
(02:40):
I ran, whatever those outcomes may be. But the people
know and that's all that matters to me.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
That's what you say when you really want to win
something and you're not going to win it, You're like,
I don't care. I didn't care anyway.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I didn't want it.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I didn't even want it. When he really, really really.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Wants stranger things have happened, he could win a Nobel
Peace Prize. I mean if this cease fire hold, which
you know at the time of recording, hopefully it will.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
We're saying a lot of Dick's winging, and what's being lost,
I think is the loss of civilian life in all
of this conflict, and I'm not seeing that in you know,
a lot of the Trump coverage. Civilians are not their government,
and I think I would like to make space. I
think a lot of out louders probably feel like this
for the position of deep grief and distress and an
(03:22):
acknowledgment of just all the innocent people who have lost
their lives and continue to every day. And Trump can
say those words, and he can swear on the lawn
or whatever, but the reality is these are real human
beings with real lives, and the scale of the tragedy
is unimaginable.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
What do we do with a problem like Brad Pitt.
He's everywhere at the minute, looming like a craggy, middle
aged Donnis on billboards, pop up ads, on podcasts, photoshoots,
in my dreams, but not about me. I'm talking about
Brad Pitt because everyone is. He is on the promotional
tour for his first like mega mega movie in decades.
(04:11):
Right f one, you would have seen this about It's
about cars, Jesse, You'd love it.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I'm really into it now that I'm a Formula one expert.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I'm also watching Drive to Survive, so I've got skin
in this game.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
He's also jumping on the very fast bandwagon. It cost
a sickening three hundred million US dollars to make this film.
That's a lot of money, and it's directed by the
same dude, and dude is the word, because these are
real dude movies. Although I have to say I love
this one Top grand Maverick, which is the one that
this guy directed that also cost you know, the GDP
of a small nation, but it made more than one
(04:41):
and a half billion dollars at the box office. And
so that's the kind of pressure that's on a Brad
Pitt at the moment. It's like, if this movie costs
this much, you've got to do a tom cruise and
bring the dollar dollar bills in the door. And that's
why we're seeing him tap dancing everywhere.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
The problem is that this is the first major major
press tour that Pit's done really since this I'm about
to read a couple of lines from a court document
about the incident that is now nine years old between
him and Angelina Jolie and their children on a private
jet going from France to la and I also want
(05:20):
to say that these documents have been read in court.
He has never explicitly denied this happened. He has made
comments Pitt through his lawyers that you know, he feels
like he's been victimized by Jolie and their divorce proceedings,
but he has never denied this account explicitly. Pitt pulled
her into the bathroom and began yelling at her. He
grabbed her by the head and shook her, and then
he grabbed her by the shoulders and pushed her into
(05:41):
the bathroom wall. One of the children, who were between
eight and fifteen at the time, verbally defended Jolie, the
countersuit says, and Pitt lashed out. He lunged at his
own child, and Jolly grabbed him from behind to stop him.
To get Jolie off his back, Pit threw himself backwards
and into the airplane's seat, injuring Jolie's back and elbow.
The children rushed in and all bravely tried to protect
(06:03):
each other. Before it was over, Pitt choked one of
the children and struck another in the face. Now, Pitt
disputes a lot of Jolie's account, and ever since what
happened in their divorce, their relationship been going on a
long time. They had six kids together, and she has
said since that there was other violence in that relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Can I ask you a question about that, because some
people say when this comes up, which in invariably does,
particularly at the moment, they'll say this never went to court,
which is true.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
It's quite weedy because the FBI got involved because originally
these were all part of really redacted court documents that
protected the identity of everybody in it, and then that
got leaked and Jolie's thought that there was something dodgy
about that, so then she was bringing a case against
the FBI. It's very like muddy Waters got it. But
what we do know is that Pitt has never explicitly
(06:55):
denied that right that particular incident he said I won't
take through his lawyers. He's never really spoken much about
it at all. To be fair, it's not like he
has been trashing her publicly. The leaks are enormous.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
His people have been really smearing her over a really
long period of time. I think that's pretty well known.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, but she's been I mean, like they're both. I'm
not defending him, but I'm just saying that this is
a very for nine years now, this has been a
very very messy situation. Yeah, he is not saying that
didn't happen. So let's assume, as the courts do, that
that did happen, right, The point I'm trying to make
is that whatever all that he said, she said, is
(07:34):
he did that? Yeah, and so what does that mean? Well,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It certainly seems that way. And it's also worth admitting
to the public record that of their six children, I
think four of them have legally changed their name because
they're over eighteen to drop the pit from their names,
and none of them have been seen publicly with him
since then.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
He's estranged from all his kids, so he's not denying that.
So how do you handle that? Back to the problem
of Brad Pitt, how do you handle the fact that
one of the most famous and high profile love affairs
marriages families of all time fell apart under a huge
dark cloud of abuse allegations. How do you handle that
and go on to be mister three hundred million dollar movie.
(08:15):
That is the question here right in a way what
Pitt has decided to do. It's clear I'm not necessarily
being cynical in this is play. That's not who I
am anymore. Most notably, he's talked about getting sober. There
was a lot of alcohol in that. In the account
of that about him drinking heavily, he says he's got sober,
he's in a AA And this week he went on
(08:36):
Dak Shepherd's Armchair Expert podcast, where he spoke to Dax
and Monica about very little. Actually the words wife would
never mention. The children were never mentioned, and normally Dax
talks a lot about kids because he's a very much
a dad, dad guy. None of that was mentioned. They
talked a lot about cars, but he did reveal Dak
Shepherd that he and Brad are in the same men's
(08:58):
AA group in Hollywood. And this is what Brad said
about Dak's reaching out to him to invite him to
their circle.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
You know, I was in pretty it's pretty much on
my back, yeah, you know, on my knees, and I
was really open to I was trying anything and everyone, anything,
anyone throughout me. It was a particular difficult time. I
needed rebooting. I needed to wake the fuck up in
some areas. And it just meant a lot to me.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So the Hollywood narrative is clear, even without spelling it out.
I fucked up. I sorted my shit out. I'm trying
to be a better man. Let's move on. What do
we make of it?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I struggle with that narrative and with men talking about
AA and addiction recovery as this personal triumph without any
acknowledgment of what lays in their wake, whether that is
children and women that are hurt, which often are, and
so it just becomes this really one note narrative. You know,
(09:58):
there's a quote in that interview where he says, when
I've stepped in shit, I'm pretty good at taking responsibility
for it. And it's basically like I'm stubborn, but I
own my failures and blah blah bla, And it comes
off like Brad Pitt deserves a round of applause, right,
And I think that there's a clue in what you
were saying, Holly about sort of the pr machine around
(10:19):
Brad Pitt, which is the three hundred million dollars when
three hundred million dollars hinges on us all not forgiving,
but putting aside the allegations against Brad Pitt, that machine
is going to work really, really hard because he's not
only an actor, but he's a producer. And interestingly, he
was a producer on adolescence and that was quiet. That
(10:41):
was only like a little.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
He produces lots, he produces.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Lots, but I think that he's taken in those instances,
he's taken a bit of a backseat and let the
projects speak for you.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
You can't do that when you're the star, and you
can't do it.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
So you are not going to risk that film bombing
because people go, I can't look at that man for
two hours or whatever. And so I'm finding the stylist
information really interesting. Maya, can you explain to me the
stylist kind of analysis that's coming out?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
So it's interesting. When you think about Brad Pitt, you
would think of a kind of a scruffy you know,
he's a very good looking but not a fashion plate.
He's almost counterprogrammed his good looks. He came up as
this heart throb, and he's always worked against that by
really not paying much attention to his clothes or publicly.
Although in an interview when he was still married to Angelina,
(11:33):
she gave a comment to a reporter who was asking
her about getting ready in all the kids and everything,
and she made a comment which was really interesting. She said,
Brad always takes longer to get ready than me. And
I've thought about that a lot since it became known
in the last few months that for this whole rehabilitation
press tour, he's hired Timothy Chalome's stylist, and that's taking
(11:57):
a big swing. And if you've seen some of the shots,
the guy's what sixty one, I think he's just turned
sixty one. He's dressing in a way that is very
celebrity well main character, main fashion character.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
The tied eye number, which was like a tied eyed
T shirt with like a tight eye pant, and then
like the blue velvet jacket. It's not what we know,
Brad Pitt.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
It's not. And if you were looking at this cynically
or perhaps pragmatically, you would say, how do you draw
attention away from all of this? You have a beautiful girlfriend.
He's got a girlfriend who's been with for quite some
time and names Ines de Ramon. She is a sales
associate for a high and jewelry company. She looks quite
a lot like Ama Clooney actually, and they've been seen
(12:43):
out and about together. They went public about a year ago.
He's outside a lot, so they're being photographed together a lot.
He's drawing a lot of attention with his clothes. There's
a lot for people to be distracted by yeah, and
I think that's very strategic.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
It's so interesting because like a lot of gen X women,
like Brad Pitt is an icon, Like here's an absolute
icon to me. You know, Felmer and Luise. That made
a very big impression at a very impressionable age, and
then you think about the movies that he's been in,
you think about that career. True cancelation, in a way
is when you can, as you said before, Jesse, you
(13:21):
can no longer look at that person without thinking about
a lot of very disturbing shit. That is certainly the
way I feel about Johnny Depp these days. I used
to be a big Johnny Depp fan once upon a time.
I can't. I just can't watch him now being Jack Sparrow,
being anything. Everything about him is it now and I
can't look at him. Brad Pitt is not quite Johnny
(13:43):
Depp character yet. He's not guzzling red wine for breakfast
and winging about being a victim like he's not that
he's going on these kind of shows and a very relatable,
I think, repentant, although he doesn't spell out his like
I'm sorry I did this, I'm sorry I did that.
The whole vibe about AA. It's about taking responsibility for
your fuck ups. He's taking a very repentant thing. But
(14:07):
then I like to play a little game in my head,
which I know is simplistic, but it's called let's imagine
Brad Pitt was a woman, and let's imagine that there
was a very high profile actress who many moons ago
publicly cheated on her much beloved famous husband, went off
and built a family with somebody else. Obviously, the physical
abuse thing is hard to gender flip, but let's imagine
(14:29):
that that marriage fell apart in acrimonious, drawn out things,
and then she was now estranged from her six children
that she'd had in that marriage. Is she getting offered
three hundred million dollar movies? It's laughable, It's not even it's.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Not just estranged. Remember when I think it was his
eldest child posted on Instagram on Father's Day basically being like,
my dad is an asshole. Like he just essentially just
sprayed him on social media. So you can imagine how
those kids kind of feel about him.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
You know this sense, I've got it of it. Jesse
is like, you know, Michelle Obama's when they go low,
we go hi when they split. In custody, Brad got
Hollywood all the reasons that you said, Wow, he's a producer,
his box office, he's clooney, here's the power in that
he was always the power and together they were amazing
(15:22):
and you know, a huge story. But he got custody
of Hollywood, and he also got custody essentially of public opinion,
because there are a lot of people who still have
not forgiven Angelina Jali for what she did to Jennifer Anniston,
even though she wasn't married at the time he was.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
And remember he got up since this happened, and we
didn't know yet about these allegations, but since that happened,
he's won an Oscar and he stood on stage and
he said, I'm going to add this to my Tinder
profile and then he said, oh, a movie about a
divorce and this and a that like really hard like
he made kind of jokes about this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And he was well known to have had a team
of writers when he was on that award circuit. All
his speeches at every awards ceremony were knockout, which is fine,
that's all part of campaigning. But it's so interesting that
he's got this kind of I don't care, you know,
I just happened to be very good looking and very successful.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
But there's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Paddling that goes under the surface. But back to the
low and high. I feel like what Angelina Jolie's done
is that she's chosen the children. So she's the one
that said, I'm not going to speak the truth. I'm
not going to tell people what really happened because I
don't want to distress the children and I want to
protect the children. And she's suffered for that and he hasn't.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Before we move on, can we please talk about this
Simone Ashley story, because I keep saying the headlines everywhere
that she has been doing so much press for this
F one movie. We should say Simone Ashley, she was
in Bridgeton, she was in sex Education. She's really on
the rise, but this F one movie was meant to
be like her big break. And she provided all these
comments to the media. She'd an interview with Variety where
(17:00):
she was like, it's so exciting to be cast in
this movie.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
That's a big break for her. She's very much a
rising star. Was she the love interest or a love interest?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
I don't even know Mayor, and you know why, I
don't know, because she has been completely cut from the film.
People went watched the film after watching her doing all
of this promotional stuff, and she's in the background in
like a couple of shots or whatever, doesn't have any
speaking roles. And what people are really annoyed about is
that they're going, this is a movie predominantly about men,
right like It's f one is very much about men
(17:32):
are in the driver's seat, men are behind the scenes.
A lot of women watch it, but what the director
appeared to do was kind of simone. Ashley did an
exclusive interview with Variety about the film about being cast
in the film in July last year, and then speaking
with Glamour, she was talking about the director and she said,
he was so open to hearing my ideas about the
character and what it means to be a female character
(17:53):
within a story like this. I love seeing more women
in the driver's seat. And then she's been cut.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
The optics of that are terrible. Jesse, did I not
see her on the red carpet for the premere and then.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
She turned up on a red carpet recently, which I
don't fully understand.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
The ball of move.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
It's a ball move because by that point I think
she knew she wasn't in it. I didn't know this
was even a thing. I've heard about actors who turn
up to the premiere watch it and they're like, oh,
I was cut. I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Apparently it's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah. When we went to the Strife screening with the
cast for season two and for season one, they hadn't
seen it before, so they didn't know how much they
were going to be in it, which, yeah, I was
shocked by that too. But oh, Samie Ashley's extraordinary. If
you want to see some of her best work season
two of.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Bridges and oh, she's amazing in a moment, Are you
a maximizer or a satisficer? And if you think I'm
saying that weird, I will explain what that word actually means.
We'll tell you after the break. Are you a maximizer
or a satisficer?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
I keep thinking that you're saying satisfier but with a
speech in perfect can.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I just explain that this is a word that is
a mix of two words, which is satisfier and suffice,
And so that's why there's a wed on the end,
and I'm saying it's slightly wrong every time. I just
think we've got to put that on the table.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
It's not a real word. It's constructed. Yea.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I learned these two terms recently while listening to a
philosopher named Agnes Callard talk about marriage. Have either of
you ever heard an interview with her or read the
New York.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Times profile one time?
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Okay, she's this really interesting philosopher. She's with her husband,
long term relationship, two kids, very happy, happy relationship. She
then goes to work and she starts working with this
new guy. Things are fine, she has an interesting relationship
with him, and then she goes into work one day
and this guy is a little bit younger than her
says I've fallen in love with you.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And she's this in real life.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
This is in real life, this is her real story.
And she looks at him and goes, oh wow, I
think I've fallen in love with you too. She walks
out of that kind of interaction and she goes, what
am I to do? She's a philosopher, right, So she
thinks about this stuff a lot, and she goes up
to her husband a few days later, and goes, I
think I've fallen in love with someone else, and I
don't know what to do. So she just tried kind
(20:07):
of honesty to see what happened. And her husband, also
a philosopher.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
When shout on a mountain, thought.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
About it and just kind of when that happens in relationships, right,
So she leads a husband for this new guy, and
then the interesting point is that she now lives in
a house with her ex husband, the two kids, and
the new.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Guy, and I bet no voice is are raised. There's
just a lot of thoughtful comments there is there is
anyway she's still romantically involved with her ex husband.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
No, no, so they yes, yes, She's like, I love him.
She's got a really interesting view of romantic love where
she's like it's a way of experiencing and exploring a
new identity, like I've become a different person with this
version of And she has this quote that was like,
thinking is something we do out loud with other people anyway,
(21:01):
really mayor on a podcast, exactly right, thinking is something
I do with you bitches. So story is fascinating, and
I recommend you read the New York Times profile. But
she'll about when it comes to marriage. She is a maximizer,
and she thinks that so are most women. A maximizer
is aspirational. They want the absolute best. They want the marriage,
(21:21):
the friendship's, the workplace to be perfect. They think there's
kind of an optimal experience, right. Satisfices, on the other hand,
are good enough people. They settle, they make decisions quickly,
they don't get hung up on the best outcome. And
she says this is why it's often women who end
marriages because they want more whereas men are and this
(21:44):
is enormous generalization content with good enough. And she talks
about this analogy of kind of going to a restaurant
and the menu, and she says that satisfices will take
one look at the menu or they'll say, you know
what you order for me? I don't care, like there
is no optimal decision whatever, And the maximizer will fret
they're the one who looks up the menu before you go,
because they're just like I think I can make the
(22:06):
best decision.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
They need to optimize everything.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yes, exactly right, and get the maximum out of every experience.
Does this ring true to you?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yes, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Are you a maximizer?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
No?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Really, I'm not a maximizer. When I was looking at
the definitions here and they said things like a maximizer,
if they're going to buy a car, a washing machine,
or lunch, they will do all of the research. They
will stew over it because they can't bear the idea
that they might buy the dishwasher and then find out
tomorrow that there's one that has half a star more
(22:39):
rating somewhere. Yeah, that is not me. I am not
even a little bit like that, No way, I reckon.
There are areas in my life where I'm a maximizer,
but I'm not an across the board maximizer. So not
the dishwasher. But yes, lunch, I will walk past twenty
five sandwich shops to go to the one that has
the thing that I deem the best. But I don't
(23:01):
like doing lots of research. I don't like stewing on
things till they're perfect. So no, I don't think I'm
a maximizer. How about you, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I'm also a satisfycer, I think because even though inherently
I think women, as you say, are programmed for self optimization,
Like there's a reason that self help is so big
with women it's women who are constantly trying to optimize.
Improve our appearance, improve our careers, improve our wardrobe, improve
(23:32):
our relationships, improve our friendships, improve our personalities. I think
that's because society tells us, and we've internalized this idea
that we're not good enough and that there's something lacking
in us and that we need to be better. Whereas
I think from a male point of view, they are
(23:52):
told by society that they're pretty great.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, no matter what, no matter how they look, no
matter what they do.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
It's like we're interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
So Callard has written a lot about aspiration, and her
definition of someone being aspirational is as soon as you
get to the point of appreciating that thing that you've
aspired to pretty well, you are sort of itching for
something new.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Oh, in areas of my life one hundred percent. See
I think this unless you are personally programmed. And some
people definitely are to care equally about all the things
and they have to have the best of absolutely everything.
Most of us probably are maximizers in areas we care
about more than others. So like in work, I reckon
I'm probably a maximizer. Like I care a lot, I
(24:35):
work really hard. I'm ambitious, I strive. But if I
put my hand on my heart, could I say I'm
like that in all my relationships, my friendships, my family relationships.
Am I trying every day to be the best friend,
the best partner, the best lover, the best daughter. No.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Experts say, Holly, that you're healthy. Experts say that what
you want is for the high stakes decisions.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Those maybe.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
The high stakes decisions we're meant to be maximizers. And
then for the little things that don't really matter.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Like our relationship.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Exactly, don't worry about those. And experts says that's really
important that maximizers do better but are less happy. And
I found that quite interesting, because I think I'm a maximizer, right.
I think that not in everything, as you say, Holly,
but I certainly think that. I get to a point
and then I start getting itchy again, and then I go,
(25:31):
all right, I've got to maximize. I need to make
this situation or this relationship or whatever more optimal, more perfect.
And I can get quite paralyzed by wanting to make
the perfect decision. But the irony is that even if
you make better decisions, and even if you end up
landing on your feet in a really good job. Because
you did all of that analysis, you're less happy and
(25:53):
satisfices are more happy with shitter decisions. So what's the matter?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Because I think that's true.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I think that sometimes too much choice, too much opportunity,
can make you feel unsatisfied if you always think there's
something better out there, you know, like the person who
orders and then they look at what everybody else got
and they're like, oh damn, yours looks better than mine.
Like I don't hold onto things like I'm just like
I'm the person who looks at the menu like yeah,
(26:21):
that'll do.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
But my partner Brenn is definitely such a fice sung Jesus,
it's been ten minutes and still can't get it right
in that that classic example of menus and it drives
me nuts is will sit down to eat and I
will have looked at it and decided and gone, yeah,
that sounds great, and then he just goes, yeah that
sounds good, me too, And it drives me nuts. I'm
(26:43):
like your own he doesn't care more aspirational. He's also
gonna like whatever it is, you know what I mean, Like,
he's not gonna care I see.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I'm the opposite. So my thing is anyone that takes
too long to order, and I'm just like, just fucking
order anything like I didn't it just because I'm married
to a maximizer who wants everything, has very high standards,
and wants everything to be the best.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
My mum has a mantra that I try to live
by because she knows better than anyone, and she says,
the best decision is the decision you make.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yes, I'm like, don't let perfect be the enemy of
done friends. As the only vegetarian on this podcast, I
have appointed myself our nature correspondent. Okay, well, I don't
care that much about nature, but I care about animals
in particular.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
And I'll have it on the record. I also care
about animals. Do you.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Like to stop eating them? Jesse? That's all I'm going
to say. I have an Orca update.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Were they wearing salmona's hats?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yes? Orca's are killer whales and they have just been
filmed making tools out of kelp to give each other massages.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
No, they worry me, Holly, really clever. They're too clever.
They're cleverer than we are.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
What's happened is that Michael Wice, who is a research
director of the Center for Whale Research in the US,
says that it is certainly the first case of a cetacean,
which is a whale, dolphin, or porpoise, finding an object
in their environment, modifying that object and using it as
a tool, not just any tool, though, a tool for
pleasuring other workers.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
They're evolving too far, they are.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
They getting smarter all the time.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I don't think it's a sexy massage. I think it's
just a nice massage. But they filmed these interactions with
drone cameras in the Salish Sea, which is the Canadian
province of British Columbia in Washington. In case you're wondering
why they do it, doctor Weese says, it's clearly not
just a strange, quirky, one off behavior. It is a
part of their social lives. Yes, no, yes, they're maximizers.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
They're maximizers.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
That's so true. And I've read that they're like highly social.
So what remember recently it was like killer whales kept
attacking boats. It was like contagious. And then if they
want to take over the world, I'd be very concerned,
I think.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
And they were wearing Salmona's hats, weren't they after the break?
If you're wondering why a tall, blonde woman who died
twenty five years ago very tragically is suddenly making people furious,
her name is Carolmbusset Kennedy, and I will be taking
questions in a moment one.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
On limit did it out Loud Access? We drop episodes
every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow
the link at the show notes to get us in
your ears five days a week, and a huge thank
you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Carolyn Bessett Kennedy has long been a fascination among a
certain group of women, of which I am one. She
became very famous in the early nineties when she started
dating and then married JFK. Junior, before they both died
tragically alongside her sister in a plane crash he was
(29:51):
piloting a plane there on their way to Martha's vineyard
in nineteen ninety nine, and ever since then she has
remained this icon of minimalist style that's really emblematic of
the nineties. Hold do you remember much of her from
that time?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I remember that wedding photo, there's only one photo from
their wedding, or there's a very iconic one where they're
coming out of what looks like the most humble little
weatherboard white chapel ever, and she's wearing just this very
simple bias cut dress. And the thing is is at
the time in that certainly in the late eighties, style
(30:28):
was more and more and more and more more like wet.
Celebrity wedding dresses were bigger than a house, you know,
and everything was more like Trump was big, right, so
gold toilets and all that stuff, and she was the antithesis.
She was very simple, very beautiful. I was thinking it
was a bit depressing in a way, how elevated she
is as an icon because she is like skinny, blonde,
waspy lady. But then I remember my obsession with Gwyneth,
(30:49):
and I told myself to sit down, because she's very Gwyneth, right, Yeah,
like she was very good style before Gwyneth.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Can I ask why we are hearing so much about
her at the moment? She feels very in the ZEITGEI.
So there was that book that's recently come out about her.
You and Amelia were talking.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
About so, I mean her stories actually depletely tragic, because
if you think about Princess Diana and Meghan Markle, like
early Diana without any of the confidence. Meghan Michael's not
quite right in terms of she was very confident and
she was a famous actress, and she's been very comfortable
with public attention, obviously not the trolling. But Carolyn Besset
Kennedy never wanted to be famous. She worked for Calvin
(31:29):
Klein behind the scenes. She never did an interview, I
don't think, and she was absolutely stalked and harassed by paparazzi.
So they lived in New York and she was on
the street everywhere. So there's a very limited number of
photos of her and every outfit that she wore back
in the nineties, you could look at it now, it
would look current now, and it's weirdly always looked current
(31:51):
ever since the early nineties.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
So why am I seeing stuff about like a movie
coming out and people are mad about the movie exactly?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
So what's happened is that Ryan Murphy, who is the
producer of all kinds of huge, big Hollywood things, He's
got a series deal with Netflix. He's making a show
called American Love Story, which is either a series or
a film I'm not sure for streaming about JFK Jr.
And carolmber Set Kennedy because it was hugely part in
(32:21):
that same way when Diana died, all of the world
and the UK went into shock and grief the Kennedys
like American royalty, and when he died tragically and suddenly
all these things about the Kennedy curse and the women
who encountered the Kennedy's and what happens to them. So
there's been absolute public fascination. It was super smart of
him to decide to make this show about them. However,
(32:45):
on the weekend last weekend, he released a series of
photos of the actor and actress who've been cast to play.
A newcomer called Paul Kelly's playing JFK. Junior, and an
actress I'm not familiar with called Sarah Pigeon is playing
carolynber Set Kennedy. Now, he says they were just camera tests.
Everyone went nuts. The color of the hair was wrong,
(33:07):
the burken bag that she was carrying was the clothes
she was wearing. And since then they've started filming on
the streets of New York and people have just ripped
into the actress for not looking right. Karen Beusset, Kennedy's
original hairstylist, a guy called Brad Johns who's retired now.
He came out and said, the hair is completely wrong. Like,
this is a woman who is there's a cult around her,
(33:30):
and I would say I'm part of that.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
The cult is only about what she looks like. Nobody
hardly ever talks about what she was like. You know,
there's a little bit out there about yees new bit neurotic,
maybe there was some you know, like people have speculated
and said lots of uncharitable things, But it's what she
looks like that everybody's particularly obsessed with. So if the
hair color, and it's a very particular rich girl blonde
(33:54):
right of the time, is half a shade wrong, it's
a big deal.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
People feel insulted. People are like, you have all this
reference material, So much of what we know about her
is coded from photos.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
As you said, they all paparatta.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, and some of those outfits still exist, and you know,
various people own them, they've bet some of them being auctioned.
So Ryan Murphy had to address the backlash because it
was really full on a lot of my group chats
with people who are also obsessed with her have lit up.
I'm in a subreddit called John and Carolyn, who has
absolutely gone off. I was in it beforehand, just anyway,
(34:30):
I followed quite a few Instagram accounts. He came out
and said he was clearly quite shocked about all of this,
Ryan Murphy, and he said, Carolyn Bassett is clearly a
religious figure, and it's a religion of her own. When
narrating the story of an unknown individual who falls in
love with the most famous man in the world and
suddenly she can't leave her house, she was constantly photographed
being insulted by the paparazzi. They're doing to our Caroline
(34:52):
what they did to the real life Caroline. It is
unjust cool.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
That's so true.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
This casting thing though, exactly what happened with the Crown.
Remember they cast Diana ELIZABETHA Becky, Yeah, and they got
really mad because they went not.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Been good for this.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
She would have a little bit too old, though, Elizabeth Tibiki.
But you're right. I mean there are a number of actresses,
which of course everyone's always been talking who would you
cast if you were going to cast the actor that
they've chosen. I'm not familiar with her, I don't know
her work. Obviously, Ryan Murphy's pretty good at what he does.
I don't think you would have cast about actress, but
your right hole. It's so coded in how she looks,
(35:28):
and people are upset that she doesn't quite look right.
And then the outfits that she was perhaps wearing on
the street while they were filming. People are saying, it's
like Temu Carolyn Bissett Kennedy that she's wearing like cheap
satin skirt and converse. The thing most people are insulted
by is that they showed her with like a pleath blazer,
a black topic chocolate brown, nasty, cheap kind of bias
(35:51):
cut skirt in satin, and a high top black converse,
and like I could honestly recite to you every outfit
she's ever worn. I could identify them. I could, And
it's like, how can they have got this so wrong?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
There's probably the difference between and maybe what we've seen
now the test stuff, as you say, a very good
costume department and are not so good costume department, Because
the thing is is you can wear someone else's clothes
like I could dresses mea today. Right, But if I
don't have a deep understanding, and Mia obviously has a
very specific style that Mia has about her style, I'm
going to get it wrong. I'm going to get the
shirt's not going to be quite the right kind of oversize,
(36:26):
you know what I mean. There's very specific details, and
surely the really good costumers of the world understand that deeply. Right.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
He says, there's a ten person wardrobe committee, including people
who have these Instagram accounts that have been going for
twenty years. I think because there's a finite number of
photos with her, because she tragically died so young, everybody
is so so ingrained with these images, and anything that
doesn't fit exactly people feel really insulted by. But it's
(36:55):
interesting because it raises these issues of accuracy and taste,
but also of ethics, because Jack Schlosberg, who is JFK
Junior's nephew, the son of his sister, has come out
and said, this is grotesque what Ryan Murphy's doing. Family
of JFK Junior wasn't consulted. Presumably Carolen Bessett's family weren't
consulted either. We hope you're going to donate some money
(37:16):
to the JFK Junior Memorial Fund or whatever it is.
And Ron Murphy came out and said, yes, we did
do that, and he's not trying to upset anyone, but like,
is it is all a bit dicky. And I say,
this is someone who has poured over photos of her
for all these years, and I've been thinking so much
about her poor mother who lost two daughters in that crash,
and one of them was a twin, and her twin
(37:37):
sister is still alive, Lisa Bessett, And yeah, I just
think about them, like we've fetishized the image of this
dead woman and she was a person, as you say, Holly. Anyway,
it's coming out on Netflix, presumably in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Friends Before we Go. Megan Markle has released a rose
or Azam Vernam likes to call it bitch dsl oh, yeah,
do we like a rose?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I love a rose. I have a basic bitch, like
a very dry rose. I will be drinking Meghan's if
I can get my sticky little pause.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I was worried that you would say that, because holy
the cost of the rose plus a seventy five dollars
shipping to the regional town of New South Wales where
you live. Is not a good use of money, and
Maya and I need to intervene.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
How much is more energy?
Speaker 3 (38:25):
I don't even know because it's coming out on the
first of July. And you might ask Jesse, why is
that date significant? Well, let me tell you it would
be Princess Diana's sixty fourth birth.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Speaking of capitalizing on the image, I disagree, as that
was her mother in law.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Some people are going, you know, it's a significant date,
and apparently that's when Meghan and Harry first met off,
first reached out to each other. It's a significant date
for them and their love story. I think it's just summer.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Because is a summer thing. You got to wait for
summer season. The thing is is this is genius on
Megan's part, because every savvy celebrity knows that if you
want the female market release of Bloody Rose, Brad and
Angelina have a Rose. It's been one of the many
things that.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
One thing they can't resolve in their divorce.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
It's good. It's called miravale. I have drunk much of it.
Drew barrmol has one, Kylie Minogue has one, Jessica Parker
has one.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
We have one.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
That's what I was going to say. I think we
should start a rose.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Can we call it bitch.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Anyone's listening and you have a winery or or a
wine manufacturer, We're interested in making our own. Out loud
bitch Diesel come at us, Let's.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Come out massive. Thank you out louders for being with
us here on our Wednesday show where we have traversed
all kinds of territory really from water Rose to Brad
Pitt like I mean really Orcas. It's been a lot
and that's what we hope you expect from us. Thank
you to all of you for listening and to our
team for putting it together. Please remember, if you are
looking at us on social or of course on YouTube,
(39:52):
our studio is a styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com, dot a you to
find out more about that. We're going to be back
in yours tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
But if you want something else to listen to, then
on yesterday's Subscribe episode, Holly and Burnham and I discussed
last meeting theory, and that's about if you've ever had
a relationship or a friendship with someone and you've had
a really monumental last meeting, or you feel like you
keep running into them. I haven't been.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Seeing this on social everywhere. You're going to explain it
to me.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
We're going to explain it. And also, for some reason,
I'm a real sucker for this, and I have some
really creepy coincidental stories that I share. Holly is a
little more skeptical as always. Will pop a link in
the show notes.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
See you tomorrow, Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Shout out to any Mum and me a subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
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