Little Treat: Jessie Stephens On 'Seize The Yay'

Oh Outlouders, you are going to be a very happy lot because you, friends, have a little treat coming your way today. 

You might have heard of one Jessie Stephens. Our very own clever clogs, author, multiple podcast host and mum is this week's special guest on Mamamia's podcast Seize The Yay, hosted by Sarah Davidson. 

This is your chance to listen in as Jessie and Sarah chat about careers, spill all the behind-the-scenes gossip from Mamamia where Jessie's media career began, and examine the never-ending juggle working parents face. So. Much. Goodness.

It's a really good listen so put your earphones in and enjoy!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mama Meyer acknowledges the
traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
recorded on.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hello out louders, we are bringing you something a bit
special in your feet today. It is a special episode
of Mama MIA's podcast, Sees the Yay.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Who's on it? Jesse?

Speaker 2 (00:29):
I am did you guys get asked? I thought you
would both like to listen to it actually, because it's
really interesting in that the host, Sarah Davidson interviews me.
She speaks to me about such things as you come up,
mayor maybe you come up and I try to just
like really politely talk about our relationship, but career, ambition

(00:52):
and the juggle that all working parents. The podcast is
all about people who have found their version of joy
in their own lives. So Sarah Davidson, Ye, so she
was a lawyer. You've got that hope A moment took
me a moment. She was a lawyer who turned into
an entrepeur word and she basically interviews a variety of

(01:18):
really interesting people for this week about slumming it, their work,
the guest must have canceled, and their play. Look, I
think everyone's going to go viral guys, can you make
this episode also that everyone knows I am please enjoy.
Happiness can't be felt by the other people around you
who are envious. If you think that other people's envy

(01:39):
is going to build you up, it's it's not because
you can't touch that. Like who says you have to
write a book every year? Who says that you've got
to say yes to this incredible opportunity that is going
to tire you out so much that your marriage suffers.
That's my goal when I get those incredible moments, to
actually be able to feel them.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Welcome to the C's the YA Podcast. Busy and happy
are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
one way. So this is a platform to hear and
explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore,
the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days

(02:20):
will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm
Sarah Davidson or Spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned unentrepreneur
who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha
maiden and matcha milkbar. CZA is a series of conversations
on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge,
joy and fulfillment along the way. Yiahborhood, we are back

(02:47):
with a guest episode for you, and I'm thrilled to
have one of Australia's most known and loved voices on
the show this week, the inimitable Jesse Stevens. Many of
you will probably recognize Jesse, or at least recognize her voice,
as one of the hosts of the chart topping podcast
Mamma Mia Out Loud, among many other shows in the
prolific mummamea network of which Jesse is also an executive

(03:09):
editor and which we you may have noticed, are so
excited to have joined recently in a brand new chapter
for CZA. While Jesse is now dominating the airwaves and
has also authored two incredible books, you may not know
that she actually began as a very junior Burger editorial
assistant a decade ago at Mamma Maya and worked her

(03:30):
way up the ranks to become one of the few
people who can say that they've been in the one
workplace for ten years. An example that you don't have
to leave your job or leave your workplace to grow
and find new yea's and one of the coolest parts
of this story. Jesse is an executive editor at Mamma
Mia alongside her twin sister, Claire Stevens, another of Australia's

(03:50):
most known and loved voices that you will likely recognize.
They both study different things in their undergraduate but then
went on to complete a master's of research left academia,
began as editorial assistants together at Mamma Maya, and they
have worked their way up in different but parallel ways.
And the two also have not just brothers, twin brothers.

(04:11):
That's two sets in one family, so it was fascinating
to learn about such a unique and special facet to
her path. Ya Jesse is also just a little bit
ahead of me as a working mum and such a
great source of inspiration, having lent her wisdom on the
Juggle on a chapter of The Juggle, the book by
my dear friend and manager Genevieve Day, who you've heard

(04:33):
from just a couple of episodes ago in our Caesar
Baby episode. Despite having many mutual friends and working in
some of the same circles. I'd actually never chatted to
Jesse before, but you would never know because she is
such an incredible conversationalist. And I hope that you guys
enjoy this one as much as I did. Jesse Stevens,

(04:53):
Welcome to CZA.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
I'm so excited that we made it through multiple reschedules
to sit down and record today, being in similar chapters
of juggling motherhood with work, and that you just completely
understood the logistical che challenges of recording. But I'm also
excited because, of course, you were a voice that most
of Australia already knows and loves. Executive editor and host
at Mama Mia, which is a family CZA is so

(05:20):
thrilled to have recently joined, So absolutely delighted to have
you today.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
It's the relief of having when you have been unreliable
in terms of I have to reschedule because babysitting issues, work, whatever.
The relief of having someone else cancel the next one
is just so good. All my guilt evaporates and I'm like, yes,
I'm not the only one who's stuffed up this scheduling,

(05:45):
so I quite like that I feel like you genuinely
didn't judge.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Me, oh only because I knew I would also reschedule,
just as manager. So I am very proud of us
for making it today.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Me too. It's a miracle.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Well for the very few people who don't already know.
You are the executive editor at Mamma Mia, hosting Mama
Mia out Loud, Canceled, and most recently the Baby Bubble,
as well as having hosted Hello book Club and once
upon a Time, much to my pleasure, True Crime Conversations.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yes, I did that for the first probably two years
I launched it, and I love true crime. I still
love true crime. But after doing it for a few years,
you know, I did some fascinating interviews and I learned
so much, but I felt like I was overstretched, and
that when there's a project, or when there's a thing

(06:35):
that you really care about, like that podcast and giving
the audience quality, then the kindest thing I could do
for them was to hand it over. And so I've
handed it over and to watch it just grow under
hosts that could give it more than I could has
been such a joy. But like I learned so much
doing that project.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
Oh my gosh, I'm so obsessed with true crime, and
I love that you've been able to dip your toe
in so many different things and podcast across many different
topics within the network during your time. But my favorite
thing really is that people walk into your life in
the chapter you're in now, and it's so easy to
assume that you know, it's such a prestigious role as
executive editor, it's easy to assume that it was an

(07:17):
overnight success, that it happened, you know, in a really smooth,
straightforward way, that you always knew you wanted to end
up in the media, and it so rarely actually happens
that way. We get to hear you speak about so
many things that are really topical, but rarely get to
hear about, you know, your childhood, or what your earliest
hopes and dreams were. That you ended up studying degrees

(07:38):
that don't necessarily make sense for a career later on
in the media. So let's go back to your childhood,
those early days, your first part time job, you know,
fourteen and nine months your school life. I read an
article you wrote recently about how people's year twelve results
don't necessarily correlate to later on, but you put other
peoples in and not your own. I researched and found

(08:00):
out it was a ninety eight point five, so I
obviously started out very academically strong. So yeah, tell us
about childhood.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's funny you say fourteen and nine months, because I
think there are probably two types of teenagers, and I
was the fourteen and nine months teenager. Definitely wanted a job,
definitely wanted some independence so that I could buy my
own clothes from soup prey, and I worked at a
video shop and Boost Juice was the big was the

(08:31):
big job, and I was never very good at any
of them because my I think I'm hard working, but
I think I'm a bit vague. And I remember once
at Boost, like leaving the till open. I was meant
to close that night, and I think I counted the money,
but I left the money in the till and left
it open. Don't tell Janine Alistair and the person got

(08:55):
there the next morning and like couldn't believe that I'd
done it. Look, no one stole it. But I've just
never been good at the basics. And even when I
started at my mayor a million years later, Claire and
I laughed that you know, you'd be asked to go
and get a handful of coffees and we'd get all
the orders wrong, like, and that's just basic one oh

(09:16):
one attention to detail. There's a real vagueness to my
brain that I wish I could fix, and I'm yet
to be able to do it. But I really enjoyed
that independence, I suppose, And at school I certainly wasn't,
you know, the smartest in my class or like I

(09:37):
remember really loving English and history and all the essay
like subjects. And then it was year eleven that I
thought Claire and I both thought, what would happen if we,
you know, tried our hardest, like really gave something one
hundred percent? And maybe other kids have that with sport
or with art or with certain hobbies, Like kids who

(09:58):
get really good at an instrument. I think it's so
important for your self esteem not to see if you
come first or tenth or whatever, but like, what am
I capable of if I throw everything at this thing?
And so Claire and I just got really focused and
worked hard in year eleven and twelve, and more than anything,

(10:21):
just loved it. We found the harder we worked, the
more we enjoyed it, and you know, that year was brilliant.
It was the first time I'd ever felt like I
guess I felt smart, and I felt like that could
be one of my things. And we went to a
school that wasn't selective or you know, known for being

(10:42):
academic or anything like that. And in year twelve, after
we did our HC and I had not you know
how all the special private schools do, like you get
an estimation of what you're going to get. So all
our friends across the river, they were like, I know
I'm going to get above ninety five. I had no
idea if I was going to get seventy or one hundred,
Like no, no, no sense of it. And then it

(11:06):
was a few weeks before the results came out a
call on my phone from the Department of Studies being like,
you have come first in extension history in the state.
I didn't know there were state rankings. I could not
believe it. And the extension history class we did wasn't
a real class. It was six people that met at

(11:27):
seven o'clock in the morning, and you know, it was
quite self guided. They almost didn't offer it. And so
I came first in the state and Claire came fifth, and.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Just to be clear to everybody, yeah, so it.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Was like Claire came fifth in the state and still
was like I'm the Luga in this family. But it
was just the weirdest end to the year, and there
was all this fuss and Claire and I were on
the front page of the paper because every year they
love a twin story because it's always a bit weird,
the twins that accidentally get the same mark or something.
And that was a high. But then, like a lot

(12:03):
of kids who feel like they succeeded in year twelve,
it was a rude shock. The next five or so
years were really really hard, and of course I think
they were actually, you know, more important and more character
forming than anything before it.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
And I love the article that you wrote about that
sort of intensity of how we approach our year twelve
results at the time, and I think it's only getting
more and more intense for young people each year, and
the pressure that comes with a trying to do the
best that you can, but then when you do get
your score, trying to do you know, as much as

(12:42):
you can with that score, and there's like a hierarchy
of jobs and there's these perceptions of success, and then
there's you know, there's also the siloing of well, I
did humanities, so I'm not, you know, a science person,
so I could never be a scientist if I didn't
want to. And you know, coming from sort of a
historical background, you don't automatically think that that translates to journalism, media, podcasting,

(13:05):
public speaking. You know, it's just so interesting that ultimately
it doesn't matter, just at the time you don't really
know that. So that's why I love hashing through like
what your relationship was to your concept of success and
your goals kind of at the time, but before we
kind of trace through what you actually ended up doing
with such an incredible academic performance. The twin thing, so

(13:28):
the fact that they the fact that you've already said
Claire and I quite a few times, and that obviously
other people externally are always making a big deal about
it from your perspective, and this is probably I think
you probably have been asked about this more than everything else.
But what was it like growing up as a twin
And are your brothers also twins?

Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, so we've got two sets of twins in our family,
and in that way, like people who weren't twins were
weird like in our sense. Not only was it I
don't know what it's like to not be a twin,
but I don't know what it's like to grow up
with anyone who isn't a twin, because in our family,
Mum and Dad were the odd ones out because they
didn't have a twin, losers, such losers. So to have

(14:11):
this built in best friend. And I don't think all
twins are like this, but for both sets of us.
And you know, there's also an innate thing of being
very shy. I see it in my daughter now, there's
a shyness, and I think that it can make you
socially maybe a little bit lazy. And you know, whether

(14:33):
it's your first day of kindergarten or your first day
of year seven, the feeling that everyone else had of
taking a deep breath and going, I've got to put
myself out there, I've got to meet people, and those
really important social skills where you say you know, hi,
Aunt Sarah. I didn't necessarily have to develop those until

(14:53):
maybe earlier adulthood, where I was known as an individual.
But to walk into every room in your whole life
besides someone, it's such a safety blanket, I think, and
a privilege, and in some ways, you know, in year
seven and eight, we got quite badly bullied by a
few girls, and I think that there was a I

(15:16):
look back, maybe there's something a bit intimidating about twins
because they felt like the best friend thing was built
in and it couldn't be infiltrated. So there's this thing
with young girls where they want their person, like there's
this obsession with best friends and they want their one person,
and when it couldn't be clear or eye, it was

(15:38):
quite easy to push us out. And so those years
were really really hard, you know. I remember once we
went to the movies with a bunch of friends and
we're just stop to be invited because they'd been all
this stuff going on. And we got there and they
ran away and hid like this, and they hid and

(15:58):
they played this practical joke, and so we were at
this shopping center like, oh, they've they hid from us,
And we didn't have phones, so we had to call
mom on a public phone and be like, can you
come pick us up? Our friends hid from us, Jessy.
And then later we're like, oh, that was really mean.
How you hit from us? And they were like it
was a joke. You can't take a joke, So.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
It's not awful.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Aren't they awful? They're so so awful, And it's like, oh,
I just think about Learner and hitting those those years
like it, you know, years on, there's like an impact.
I still meet certain people who remind me of this
girl in year eight, and like this kind of alarm
goes off in my head, But I mostly just feel
so lucky that I've had someone to debrief on every

(16:44):
single day of my life with no judgment and no
fear that she's going to go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Oh my gosh, that is the most beautiful description I
have ever heard of twin shit, because I feel like,
I mean, it's so fascinating to anyone who's not a twin.
And I love that you said it was so normalized
for you, and it's I think that's the same with
any defining characteristic of your childhood, is that in all
the ways it's different to everyone else. You don't know that,

(17:10):
and like we don't become aware of that until much later,
and that's when all the like everything starts to kind
of go downhill, once we start the comparison and all
that stuff. But I love that you had firstly no
idea that anyone else was different, but that it has
been so formative and positive in that way. Like it's
so sweet because I feel like sometimes the dialogue is
like the first question so many people ask is like,

(17:32):
have you heard a threesome? Do you chick a boyfriend? Like,
and it's like, no, I want to know what it
was actually like, like, yeah, did you guys get you know,
frustrated if people would confuse you, like in a sense
that fraternal twins don't get How did it change your
identity forming at that age? And I love that you
are actually close because I imagine like at times it
could have gone the other way.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah. I remember in primary school people used to call
us the twins or twinies and we hated it, like
we just felt like we weren't even afforded our own names.
And it's funny because in adulthood we've kind of re
embrace that and being like, oh, that's fine, we are
the twins, maybe because we feel more secure in our

(18:15):
own identities. But there were moments then, I suppose and
maybe same with my brothers, where we felt you feel
like a bit of a freak. Show in that way,
or that people are looking at you and thinking you're
a bit weird, and I didn't love that. And weirdly,
we didn't have any other twins in our year, ever,
whereas my brother's had three sets of twins, and I

(18:38):
think it's probably more common now, but certainly an adulthood,
I've seen what a gift it is as well. And
having Claire now has her baby is nearly eleven months old,
so to have them so close is I didn't realize
when we were pregnant what that would mean.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Oh that's so special, so special, And I'm an awe
of you as well, because I think that it's already
such a difficult, like just that chunk of your life
formative years is so hard to figure out who you are,
and there's so much pressure and so many social norms
and expectations that kind of start to creep in. And

(19:19):
we talk so much about like the comparison trap, but
for you guys there, and I'm always like, well, it
doesn't really matter, because there's no parallel universe. You can't
compare to the you if you would have done something else.
Whereas you guys, it's like there's this living even though
you're separate people. In other people's estimation, it's like, well,
you know, one of them sciencey and one of them's
already like you know, there is this kind of parallel
comparison that I can imagine would be kind of difficult

(19:42):
for people to be like, well, she chose this and
she chose this. But it's beautiful that you ended up
both doing the same masters and somehow both ending up
in the same job and workplace for the same nearly
ten year period, which is incredible, an incredible testament to
you both.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yes, and we actually studied different things. Claire went on
and did I saw psychology and could have gone on
and become a psychologist, like I think it was something
she was thinking about for a while. And then I
did a master's in history and gender studies, and then
we started writing this blog together, which we were just
having lots of fun doing. In twenty twelve, and after

(20:24):
a few years of doing that, Maya Friedman, who owns
One Maya came across it and reached out to us,
and I guess that was the dream. But we've never
really looked forward, Like, never when we started UNI, it
was never like I want to do this and then
when we started at my mayor, it was never like
I want to do this, It was very much like

(20:46):
what do I enjoy doing in this moment. I think
I'm still a bit like that, and there's definitely no
five to ten, fifteen year plan, but we've definitely shown
each other what's possible in different arenas. So I think
the comparison thing probably has been hard at times where

(21:06):
one of us, you know, has had a moment of
six sess and the other is felt a little bit
left out. But Claire recently submitted her first manuscript for
her first book, and I probably I'm not meant to
say this, but screw it or say it. The acknowledgment
at the front is just like to Jesse for showing

(21:26):
me I could, which was so touching because I didn't
realize that by sitting down and going I'm going to
write a book, I taught Claire that it was possible.
Because of course there are other women who have done that.
For me, I would say that watching Holly, my co
host on Mummeer out Loud showed me I could do it.

(21:46):
So I love that idea that it's like you're just
providing a bit of a blueprint of how such a
big project can be done.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
And I think that's why I love this podcast so much,
is because every different pathway and story that I have
the privilege to tell, and I am always trying to
make sure they are as different from each other as possible.
I hope that is one listener's blueprint for them believing
they could do that, because it's just a visibility thing

(22:16):
most of the time that you need to believe someone
else has done it. And I think there is still
this romance around When I was five, I wanted to
go to space, and this was the astronaut that we
had on a couple of weeks ago. She wanted to
go to space from her early early childhood and she
spent her whole life positioning herself to be selected, and

(22:36):
she became an astronaut and she is in Australia's first
astronaut that is astronomically astronomically rare, so rare, and so
I love that you haven't always had that plan. You
haven't needed I think the dots connect anyway, but you
haven't needed to know that necessarily, as you've put one
foot in front of the other exactly and sort of

(22:57):
going following your nose in terms of what interests me
and what brings me joy and the other stuff will follow.
And I've always thought as well that and I think
it's similar with the astronaut aspiration. It's like you can
want something and dream of something, you don't have to

(23:20):
believe you can do it yet, Like that's okay. I
think that we've got this thing of like in order
to actually do the thing, we think we've got to
mentally believe in ourselves.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
And I think that's a bit of a lie. It's
like when I started writing a book, no part of
me believed I would finish a book. Yeah, I just
prove to myself. The belief comes after you do the thing,
not before it. And so like I think we can
get focused on kind of eliminating all the self doubt
cognitively and it's like, just do the thing just like

(23:55):
whatever it is. Don't think you've got to get into
the right head space. Same with a podcast, Like if
you'd said to you years ago, oh, you're going to
make this many episodes of a podcast, you'd be like,
I can't do that. I don't have the skills or whatever.
But then you just develop the skills and you look back,
and that's where the self esteem actually comes from.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
I love that. I often refer to the quote even
in my own brain when I've like I'm such a
we become a product of our generation, which is instigratuity.
And it's like, I have this dream. I want the
dream tomorrow, like by nine am, like all before close
a business, like at the latest. You know, I won't
wait years for my dream to come true. We want
everything now, And yeah, I have to remind myself like

(24:35):
you don't have to see the whole staircase to take
the first step. You don't need to see the end
of the story. You just need to start it. And
the naivety actually often works in your favor because if
you knew how hard it would be at the end,
like you wouldn't do it. So it's a good thing
that we all have to start somewhere exactly. This is
my favorite part of your story that firstly, you didn't

(24:56):
necessarily study and get qualified in the thing that you
ended up doing. But secondly, it's very very rare in
this day and age to find anyone who has worked
in the same workplace for nearly ten years. That's incredibly unusual,
but also that you are now an executive editor in
the workplace where you began. And I loved this description
of your first job as an editorial assistant, and the

(25:19):
job description was loading posts. I loaded posts. I was like,
if there's ever been an example of like started from
the bottom. Now I'm here, I was loading posts. Now
I'm an executive editor. You can climb the ladder. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
And I started by like there would be submissions sent
to the inbox, and then I wasn't picking the submissions.
I was then sent them by an editor being like,
can you load this into the back end. So it
was really was putting in images and coming trying with
a headline and SEO and all of that kind of
that kind of stuff. And then I think they actually

(25:57):
didn't have that job for a period. So there was
another job which was basically like filing video. So I
would go into the back and every video that had
been done, it was like tag it with relevant terms,
and I would sit there and tag it and I
was like, I just like being in this office. And
sometimes I would load a posts and I would think,
I think I can write something better than this, Like
I really I don't think much of myself, but I

(26:22):
can do better than this, and so Claire and I
would stay back and write our own stuff, and some
of it got up and some of it absolutely didn't.
And we didn't even have the skills to write a
news story. I had no idea the structure of a
news I wouldn't know what the first sentence should be. Nothing.

(26:43):
I knew how to write nessa. I didn't know how
to write for the internet. And it was only the
generosity of other people in the office who were very
busy and shouldn't have given us the time because that
was not part of their job to sit down and go,
this is how you do it, give us a like
pretty stern feedback about what was and wasn't working, and

(27:07):
we took that on and learn. I don't even I
wouldn't even say I was a particularly quick learner with
that stuff, but I was definitely interested and determined. But
it took like at least a year or two before
I was writing for the site. And then an opportunity
came up on Mummy out Loud. One of the hosts left,

(27:28):
and I think they wanted a younger voice, so they
gave me an opportunity. I was appalling, like I to
talk about Chloe Kardashian story maybe, and I couldn't tell
a story, Like I had no idea how to explain
how this thing happened because I'd never done it before.
But for some reason, they gave me another go. And

(27:50):
I was so nervous and so over prepared and like
so trying to prove how smart I was, and I
would just you know, they eventually gave me another go,
another go, and I got the gig and from there
it's been you know, I think I was maybe weekend
editor for a while, assistant head of content and now

(28:11):
executive editor. Means that I can kind of operate a
little bit of as an island and do the projects
and really own the projects that I love, which at
the moment is podcasting. I just love it.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Well, you are extraordinary at it, which is amazing. But
I bet that telling twenty fifteen Jesse who was loading posts,
that this is where you'd end up. There's just no
way that you could possibly conceive of being like right
at the top of this business where you started sort
of as such a junior. But before we move on

(28:46):
to sort of how you can position yourself in a
business and have that faith to keep trying even if
you don't feel that you're very good at something. At
the beginning you mentioned just then proving that you were
really smart. And I think a lot of where people
go maybe on tangents or diversions or have not misguided

(29:07):
but have chapters that kind of don't really make sense
for them, is where they do fall into trying to
prove things to other people or making decisions from ego
rather than as you mentioned, just like what makes me happy,
what's joyful? And I think that is trying to prove
that you're smart or getting a really good interscore and
feeling like you have to use every point on the
degree that you choose, and then you know you do.

(29:28):
You have a bachelor's degree in modern history and gender
studies and then a master's degree of research, which is
an incredible like not overqualification for what you do, but
it's not necessarily correlating. Yeah, did you ever feel like, oh,
I'm walking away from this kind of very academic investment
of time, Like how how did you reconcile that?

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Definitely? And that's a pool like that research and feeling
like I existed in this certain environment there was actually
definitely and I still sense it from the environment. I
came from a little bit of eyebrow raising.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
I was gonna ask, yeah, a bit of.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
Like seeing as a demotion or like you've sold out
because and this is actually why I found academia flawed,
which everyone I know who works in academia agrees with me,
which is that it is very small, very insular. You
have the most exciting and important research and papers being

(30:30):
published that are so inaccessible to anyone outside of the academy,
and it is an incredible shame because it's really important stuff,
and there's not enough investment in communicating, Like you can
do the best research in the world, but if you're
not able to communicate it to a lot of people,
then did it ever really get written? And that's what

(30:53):
I was frustrated by, is that I would write this
twenty thousand word thesis and I think two people read it.
And so then when you get on the internet and
you can write in an hour an article that a
quarter of a million people read, there is something very
addictive about that. It's like this this sugar rush, and

(31:14):
in a way you can get addicted to that and
see it as more worthwhile, which I don't necessarily think
it is, and I think there's dangers in that. But
I also learned with the you know, with thinking you
need to use everything, you know, every mark that you've
got or every degree that you have. It's like, every

(31:35):
time there's an achievement, there's this thing that we do
where it's like, what's next, What's next, What's next? And
the pressure and the suffocation of that, and whether it's
that you've just done really well in your HC or
you've just had a professional moment, Often those moments like
the scariest because everyone looks at you and they're like,

(31:56):
how are you going to back this up? And it's like,
oh shit, it's never enough, Like it's I've never finished.
And I think I've learned to kind of let go
of that a little bit now and go, I'm going
to consolidate some of the projects I'm already on and
go and do the best job at this podcast that
I can. But I think that pressure is a real

(32:18):
shame because you never get to actually celebrate some of
those wins.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, totally, totally. It's just the pace of everything is
so fast as well that you feel like you'll fall
out of relevance if you pause for like two seconds
to celebrate the thing that you were actually hard to achieve.
And it's interesting that you did feel a bit of
a raised eyebrow kind of situation because I found that
when I left law and started business. But that was

(32:43):
very heavily eCOM based that it was sort of like, Oh,
what's that cute little thing you're doing on the internet,
like social media? And it was it was definitely until
it started making money and then kind of getting in
the AFR and stuff like that. It was definitely this little, funny,
cute little side thing that I was doing. And even
still though I noticed that, and I've admitted this only
recently because I only realized recently, but I've said it

(33:06):
in a few episodes that I still can't drop the
lawyer turned entrepreneur from my title in my mind because
I'm like, I just need you to know that I
did do that thing. Yeah, and I do have that
side of my personality and I don't do it anymore,
but and I don't think it was a waste of time,
but it's just there. It's just still part of everything,

(33:28):
you know, and it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
I think, yeah, it's I think as women in any
sort of media, people are looking for ways to dismiss
you and call you an idiot, especially if you do
anything on social media. It's like you are vacuous, you
are dumb, you are a sellout. So we feel this

(33:53):
need to like legitimize that, justify that there's actually skill
in it and that you kind of even building a platform.
It's like, it's taken a really really long time to
do pretty much everything in my career, and I I
don't know if I've feel envy, but there are some
people who, like, you know, do have this, whether it's

(34:13):
a breakout book or whether it's something go viral and
they explode. I certainly haven't had that experience. It's been
like a really slow growth of doing you know, the
podcast for a lot of years or whatever. And so
I do kind of feel like, yeah, maybe I've got
to justify why I have a right to say anything

(34:37):
like because and I do actually feel that that's part
of my identity and that we live in a world
that is trying to deny research and facts and objectivity,
which I believe very very strongly in and I think
it's never been more important to argue with data and research.

(34:59):
But yeah, I certainly feel like you can be very
dismissed if you're a woman with any kind of profile.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, it's interesting, the subtle type. How long it took
me to realize that's what I was doing as well?
I just thought it was funny, and now I'm like, oh,
there's some weird psychology going on. I think declar about
that totally. But it's also I think that's another reason
why I kind of labor over these earlier chapters of

(35:28):
people's lives, because they don't get as much airtime because
it's not necessarily what you do right now, but it
is to remind everyone that you did labor over all
of the chapters that you've been in to get to
the position that you're in now. You didn't just walk
into the host role of one of the bigger shows
in Australia and know what to do. Like I was
going back, and your first internship in media was like

(35:50):
MTV in twenty eleven, and then you've done short courses
to upskill. So it's and like you said, when you
first began, you weren't good at podcasting, and I don't
think people believe that they can upskill in a totally
new area. I think they think I've got to be
good at X, or, like I mentioned earlier, the siloing thing.
It's like, I'm not academic, so I can't do this.

(36:10):
Or I'm not creative so I can't do this. It's like,
or you could just find really good mentors and do
some short courses and try and see. And I feel
like you've done that. You've added so many strings to
your bowl along the way to books, writing and producing
a TV show. Like it's been this beautiful progression of

(36:31):
every next level has been a different set of skills.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
And in that way, I think it's the only thing
I think I've done other than And I know it's
very unpopular to say luck, but I do think that
luck plays a part. Is that I have said yes.
I have to my own detriment. I have said yes
when I probably should have said no. But if someone said, hey,
do you want to be a weekend writer and that

(36:57):
means that you work Saturdays and Sundays, I said yes.
When someone said can you work Christmas Day? I said yes.
I wouldn't say yes now because I think that that
has shifted. I think I've earned the right to say no,
But I do not think I would have had any
of those things, even like the TV or the You

(37:19):
might get the opportunity to go into a TV spot
and it's not paid and it's at seven o'clock in
the morning and it's going to take work, but I
said yes because it was something I wanted to get
good at. And I think when you say no to things,
that's a cost, and as long as you know what
that cost is, like own the no. But I definitely

(37:40):
feel like being open to a lot of those things
has helped take me in a very strange direction. And
we talk at work about a ladder and a lattice,
like a ladder is just up. And I was on
that trajectory for a little bit in terms of, oh,
will you be the head of content or the editor
or whatever, and I realized I didn't want to do that,

(38:02):
and so I sidestepped and went, Okay, rather than that,
I'm going to go and do some TV writing and
I'm going to write a book and I'm going to
do some TV spots or whatever. And that made me
feel satisfied. Rather than being the big boss, I have
no desire to be anyone's boss. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
Wow, Okay, So this is one of my favorite realizations
in the kind of matrix of seizing anyone's yea, and
that is that we spend so much of our journey
thinking that bigger and further upwards is better, just necessarily,
like without any other considerations. And same with the hierarchy
of jobs. We think that quitting corporate and working for

(38:44):
yourself is better, Like that's because it's romanticized, and or
being a CEO is better, And like, what I think
people don't realize is that we are not all built
the same. The fabric of what lights you up but
also makes you desperately unhappy, or what is your fear
versus what is your passion? It looks different for everyone else.
So we can't all be CEOs and enjoy it. We

(39:05):
can't all be business owners as enjoy it. And it's
actually normal to think I don't want to be my
boss or I don't like it's the most empowering thing. Ever,
maybe for some people is to say I just don't
need to progress. I'm happy here, and like, I don't
think we allow people to have that realization.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
No, I was reading maybe it's Atomic Habits, It's some
book that I was reading a little while ago that
said the first thing you should choose, rather than like
how much money do I want to make or what
job do I want to do? Or do I want
the promotion, is like what do you want your day
to look like? And then what do you want your
week to look like? And then work backwards from there,

(39:44):
Because I do not want my day to look like meetings.
I don't want my day to look like I'm really
bad at any sort of confrontation, Like if I was
managing someone and there was an issue with performance, I
just can't. It's just not worth how much anxiety it
gives me to give that feedback. I don't want to
be up at six and working late like that's not me.

(40:09):
And that's been actually more important since I've had a
baby to go What exactly do you want your days
to look like? When do you feel most connected to Luna?
Like there's a threshold at which you lean into work
so much that you feel disconnected and you're just a
nightmare for everyone around you. And you know the money

(40:32):
and the promotion and the career goals can all fit
around it, But if your day is hell, then no
matter what goals you hit your unhappy. So that's kind
of the granular what I've found going back to has
really helped me since having a baby.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Yeah, I love that. I often describe it as like
we all spend our brain, like our thinking time and
goal setting time in the macro like macro my title
to be or what are my macro goals? And unfortunately,
if you leave out the micro of what does that
translate to day to day? That's how people find achieving
their goal sometimes doesn't feel the way that they thought

(41:09):
it would because they didn't consider the micro. So I'm
always like, think about both levels before you decide anything
in your life.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yes, yes, I totally agree.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
When we had the match of business, the pressure to
get into supermarkets was so high because it was like, well,
instantly you become a multimillion dollar business, and why would
you not want to you know, ten times your revenue overnight.
And of course, for Ages, we invested so much money
in that process, thinking that was the logical next step,
and then I realized I left corporate to not do that,

(41:42):
and this is corporatizing the thing that I created. So
I could leave the corporate world and I don't want
to be in a hy best in a factory every
day like it. But the ego of like realizing it's
okay to not try for that next big thing is
I think, really really complex.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, And you've got to create time in your schedule
to enjoy the big moments like I often, you know,
whether it's live shows or submit a book or book publicity.
It's like that stuff of like reaping the rewards for
hard work. If that is all done between other hard

(42:18):
work and you're tired and burnt out and grumpy, then
none of that is fun. Like and I've had that
experience of like being in this situation and looking around
and going, this is a career. I remember going to
this writer's festival, total career goal who I was on
a panel with, who I got to spend time with,

(42:38):
And it was traveling, and I was in this great
hotel and I resented every minute of it because I
wanted to be at home, because I was tired, because
I had stuff I knew I needed to do between everything.
And in that way, it's like, what's the point if
you don't get to have fun at those sorts of moments?
And maybe that means you write a book every five

(43:01):
years rather than a book every year, Like who says
you have to write a book every year? Who says
that you've got to say yes to this, you know,
incredible opportunity that is going to tire you out so
much that your marriage suffers, Like no one, So I, yeah,
have certainly that's my goal when I get those incredible moments,

(43:26):
to actually be able to feel them.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
I love that reminder because I think, Yeah, we think
of everything monetarily and don't consider that that quote of
like if it costs you your peace, it's too expensive,
so it doesn't really matter what you make from it
if you're unhappy, Like what's the point. And You've got
a beautiful chapter in my dear friend Genevieve Day's book
on the Juggle, and there was something you said that
I highlighted and scribbled down because I thought it was

(43:50):
just so valid that you had become ungrateful for objectively
joyful moments. And I think that's when you know you've
pushed it too far when you can't even enjoy the
good bits, so like why have any bits at all?

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yes? And then you become I've got a real thing
about being in moments and thinking I should feel one
way not feeling that way, which is this. I heard
this term recently about emotional perfectionism. I think that's what
I had that I think my emotion should be perfect
every moment, and they're not. And that's been a real
like relief actually, because you look at like, for example,

(44:25):
I went and saw Dolly Alderton recently at the Opera House,
and you look at her in the opera House, and
she sold out the opera House and she looks gorgeous
and what a career. And most people in media would
look at her and go, that is what I want.
But my own life has taught me you have no
idea how she feels you have. It can look so glamorous,

(44:47):
but she might have had the worst day and been
slogging over a script that she submitted that got rejected,
Like you just have no idea, And then someone in
the audience who's just come here and she's been looking
forward to it all week is probably feeling a lot
happier than Dolly on stage, like and who's the winner?
Are Like, happiness can't be felt by the other people

(45:10):
around you who are envious. If you think that other
people's envy is going to build you up, it's not
because you can't touch that. So it's I think realizing
as well as cliche as it is the tiny, tiny
joys that bring you just as much happiness, which is like,

(45:30):
you know, today I'm mostly at home with Luna, and
it'll be the best day of my week. No matter
what else happens, it'll be the best day of my week.
And yeah, that's certainly been a surprise.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
I think, Oh, I love that, and I can't wait
to get to more on Luna and oh my goodness,
you're sixty two and a half hour labor like you
will talk about proving to yourself that you can do
hard things in just a moment, but just wrapping up
the sort of career progression, and particularly the lattice, I
love that analogy. I think that's such a good visual

(46:02):
reminder that it doesn't have to just go upwards in
the sort of complicated matrix, particularly is women that we have,
but just for anyone really of putting yourself forward for
new positions, not believing that you can do them, imposter syndrome,
self doubt, burnout, everything that comes with going, you know,

(46:22):
getting promotions and putting yourself forward for those things. What
has been your You mentioned that you're not always thinking
you know too far ahead? What has been your model
for those moves? For each of those jumps, has it
been like a mentor that you turn to, Like, how
do you even know that it's time for a new role?
How did you decide I want to be an author?
How did you kind of know when the cusp of

(46:44):
a new chapter was happening?

Speaker 2 (46:47):
I and this is not necessarily a great model, but
it's true. Is I have used jealousy. So anytime I
feel jealousy, which I am quite a jealous envious person
at something I don't like about myself, But every time

(47:09):
I it, every time I feel it, I go, what
is it that you want? And sometimes if I look
at it really closely and I go, you actually don't
want that, the jealousy of vaporates, which is great. So
it's like sometimes I say something and I'm like, oh,
you said no to that, you actually don't want to
do that, And then you go, ah, oh cool, I'm

(47:29):
actually not jealous. And then other times I go, Okay,
this person has written a book. Oh, this person wrote
a fiction book. I've always want to write a fiction book.
And it's like, oh, great. That was clarifying. You want
to write a fiction book, well, then do it instead
of sitting there stewing on how jealous you feel about
this person or thinking it has anything to do with them,

(47:50):
because it doesn't. It's just your own navigation system of
what's next. And then like I found that with television
as well, and I think it all builds on each other,
Like I wouldn't have been able to write fiction if
I hadn't written nonfiction. That was my putting my toe
in and going can we write a book and playing

(48:13):
with narrative, and then going, I think I've skilled up
to go, Okay, I can write fiction, which is dialogue.
You learn how to write dialogue and then you go
all right, I actually do think I can write for screen,
but there's no way I could have started with screen.
And in saying that, it's like when Claire and I
wrote our first episode of something, we did not know

(48:35):
the program, so it's like everyone was sending us, We're like, oh,
can we just see you like what a script looks like?
Because I was like, what what do you do? Do
you write? Is the name in capitals? Like I've never
I literally have on my bookshelf all the succession scripts
and I've got the script for Fleabag and I've got
the script for normal people. Because I was like, I

(48:57):
need to self teap, like I haven't done a course
in this. I don't know all these people went to
UNI to go and learn to script write, Like I
need to learn in one day how to write a script.
And maybe that comes down to like studying, Like I
quite like that intense getting across something quickly, and a

(49:21):
belief that if you work hard at something you'll be
able to do it. Like I have a very strong
belief in prep that's the only way that I get
over nerves. Is like if I were to go on
stage in an hour, I would probably be really nervous
because like I don't know what I'm going to say.
But if I know what I'm going to say, know

(49:41):
how it's going to go, and I trust my ability
to prepare, I don't trust myself. So that I think
has been a good mantra for me is that like
if you work hard enough, the imposter syndrome or whatever
you want to call it will dissipate because you know

(50:02):
you've put in the hours.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Yeah, it's like giving yourself data points to sort of
rely on yeah exactly, you know, self doubt in Korea
and upskilling it sort of seems like the biggest thing
in your entire life until you become a mum and
then all the problems you thought you have become very

(50:24):
simple and they've become really one dimensional compared to sort
of this whole new thing that you're facing where you're like, oh,
I thought I knew what the word hard meant until now,
and I don't even know. I mean, I had a
C section, so it was like ten minutes and then
it was just kind of done. But sixty two and
a half hours, Like, tell me you didn't have moments
of self doubt like I can't do this? What happened?

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Oh my gosh, that was the whole pregnancy, and I
got perinatal depression and anxiety like I was, I have
a total phobia of pain of being stuck, which is
kind of what labor is, like you are experience that
you can't endbsolutely no belief that I could do that,

(51:13):
And it didn't matter how many women said they'd done it,
because I was like, yeah, yeah, but you're stronger than me.
You don't get it. I'm weak you're strong. I have
no doubt that you did that. I saw my psychologist
during it and he said he kind of got to
the bottom of it and was like, you are scared
that you're going to die. And I was like, I am.
I am scared that I'm going to die when I

(51:35):
give birth, Like I just don't have any faithor in
my body's ability to do it. And so I actually
went in initially and said I need to get a
C section. I'd had a really traumatic experience with pain
where I had been stuck in pain for a long
period prior just a year prior, and I was like,

(51:55):
if I get stuck in pain, I will panic and
I really don't want to panic, and I need to
control what I can. And the obstetrician said, I hear you,
and if that's the choice you want to make, absolutely,
but think about it, like and he said to me,
it's one day of your life, which ironically it wasn't.

(52:17):
I think, let's just keep an eye on this baby
and positioning and measurements, and I think you'll be surprised.
And so I did lots of research. I did the
Bourbon classes, I read all the books, and I went
I think this is important for me to try like that,
it could be quite a big thing if I'm able

(52:40):
to do it. And so me and my my twin
sister both had very very long labors and they just
weren't progressing and kept getting sent home from hospital and
all of that. And then I went in. I got
an epidural. They say to wait till you're like, I
don't know five centimeters. I think I was two, And

(53:01):
I was like, stick it in. I just I have
got let's just I have no pain threshold. Just do it.
And then the apt utual giving birth is the best
experience I've ever had, Like I absolutely loved it, and
I have walked around the world since. And I've been
really careful about talking about this because you do not

(53:23):
earn a birth. My twin sister, with the same body
had a traumatic birth, Like we could not be more identical.
We prepared exactly the same. I didn't earn anything. But
even with her traumatic birth, we've both said, you can
walk around the world a little bit straighter because you're like,
I cannot believe what my body did, whether that is

(53:47):
vaginal c section, however that baby comes out, you're like,
holy shit, Like I didn't know I could grow a
baby and even like look after it and you feel
like a bailout there every minute of every day. But
like that to me has given me more self esteem
than anything I've ever done. Like I just can't be

(54:08):
if that baby, who I think is the most perfect
thing in the world, has anything to do with me,
then like I am great.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
I am the actual shit, Like the actual shit. I
think that's just one thing that's amazing about listening to
you is that in every regard, whether it's like your
childhood or your career or even giving birth, it's your
incredible self awareness. And I think the disconnect for a

(54:39):
lot of people in fulfillment or happiness or whatever you
want to call it with their life is that they
don't just really get in touch with like what am
I good at? What are my incentives? What motivates me?
What doesn't motivate me? Like you know that you to
even be able to articulate that you operate from jealousy,
Like that's a motivator, Like it's you know, you don't

(55:00):
want to be a jealous person, but the fact that
you can use that to your advantage, Like all you
need to know is the fabric that makes up your
exact composition of like filment, and then just build your
life around it. And I think the problem is that
people look at other people's fabric and then make decisions
based on that, and it's like, well, of course horse
riding wasn't going to make you happy because you hate animals,

(55:21):
Like that doesn't make sense, you know exactly, And it's
about that acceptance, Like it's I think being really close
to your siblings helps because even if you don't have
self awareness, they will give it to you. Like no
one will tell me in how many different ways I'm flawed,
like my family will in a very loving way.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
But I think you're absolutely right. It's like we're very
quick to see everyone else's issues and neuroses and diagnose
and narcissism and all of those things that we throw
around without seeing that we have exactly the same level
of shit that we're dealing with. And I think self

(56:02):
awareness gets you a long way. And you know that
self reflection because I've seen like going and seeing a
psychologist and that's because I've had years of knowing that
I'm anxious or having episodes of depression and being able
to work out why that happens and where I get stuck.

(56:25):
I can't always see that in the moment, but I
certainly see the value in untangling it after, and sometimes
if it's writing it down. I've found writing really good
for that in terms of processing what's going on. And
even like after giving birth, it was like I didn't
write anything to publish, but like I might just write
in a journal to just understand the complexity of all

(56:47):
the feelings.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah, wow, And now would you say, I mean like
we need a whole nother episode to talk about the
juggle and the way that your goal setting, time management, prioritization,
like self care, all of those things just completely changes
in such a radical way once you have a baby.
Now that Luna's sort of sixteen months, did you say, yeah, yeah,

(57:11):
how are you feeling in terms of are you full
pelt back at work? Do you feel like is there
still the mumfog? Are you like how you feeling with
the juggle?

Speaker 2 (57:23):
Every like every week since I've had Lunar, I would
have a different answer still now, like I think it changes.
Right now, I'm feeling very good because I went away
with my family last weekend. I have It's funny because
a lot of what I do is public facing, right,
So it's like if I'm on a podcast, then my

(57:45):
friends and family will probably see a video of it
on Instagram. What you can't see is how many of
those podcasts I did in one day. So it might
look like I'm working every day, but I'm absolutely not
working every day. It's like I try and have at
least probably one to two days during the week that
can be lunar days and during her naps. I will,

(58:07):
you know, whether it's a bit of script writing or
or other projects I'm working on, I will try and
get that done. But my vision of success has totally
changed and the cost of what projects like, I think
I was very like, very ambitious, and I still am
very ambitious. And I felt it coming back actually because

(58:28):
I think that for a while the ambition did dull,
not in a bad way, but I was just very
focused on as much time as possible with Luna. I'm
feeling it come back because I simply have more time,
and like even the difference between my baby and Clare's
is that she's at an age now where like she'll

(58:49):
sit there and read her book and like she kind
of wants a bit of independence. And that might mean
that I can read a book, or that I can
go and do like I know that she doesn't. There's
just I'm feeling more and more independence, I think. So
at the moment, yeah, I'd probably do like I reckon

(59:09):
three three and a half full days a week of
work and then around naps try and work however I can.
But the big thing has been family. I have enormous
my mother in law, my mum, Like, we have a
nanny who comes a day a week right now, my

(59:31):
father in law and Luca's brother is downstairs with Luna.
Like that has been the greatest, the greatest blessing. There
is no privilege when you have kids like. Family like
that has just made this experience totally different than it
might be if I lived regionally or overseas and had
no support.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
Oh my gosh, I'm the same. My family live within
like four ks or three k's and over every day,
and I just think on those days where I'm not
feeling great and I don't feel like I'm getting the
balance right, I'm just like and I have all that. Imagine. Yeah,
without thatsh how I would.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
Even on the days when you don't need the help,
or you don't call in the help, you do know
it's there, and that's very different. Like imagine not sleeping
waking up and going there is no one I can call.
Knowing that there are people you can call is totally
totally different. Like I just think, yeah, the experience for people,

(01:00:33):
I feel like I've always got to preface everything with
that because I just think i'd have it'd be completely
different if I didn't have that sort.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Yeah, I'm absolutely in the same boat, and it is.
It does allow a big part of your brain the
freedom to just enjoy the experience a lot more because
you're not completely without any break or without any time
to like miss them, you know, it's like absence makes
the heart grow fonder with everything. But I think also

(01:01:01):
in motherhood it's nice to yeah, I mean, once you
first get through that first kind of bit, to be
able to start to miss them and then be so
excited when you get to get to see them again.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Exactly and to know that, you know, I get up
and have this great I get to do breakfast and
we hang out in the morning and we have this
great time before my mom comes and seeing her face
light up when she sees my mom or Luca's mom
is just the greatest joy. And then I get to
run in the door, like after work, and I've never

(01:01:33):
run home from work before, Like I just am so
keen to get back, and I feel like that helps
me to appreciate it, Like it's just so so much fun.
And to see other people what they see in your baby.
To have that shared and to just all of you
marvel at this baby together is like, yeah, it's how

(01:01:56):
our ancestors did it. And I just the loneliness that's
some and I think you feel loneliness regardless, but yeah,
it's definitely different when you've got a real support network.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Well, Jesse, I know today is a lunar day and
I don't want to take any more of your precious time,
but I feel like I could. I've there's so many
things I want to talk. We didn't even touch on strife.
We hardly even got into your books. But I'll include
links to everything in the show notes. And of course
I don't think I need to link one mayor out
loud or any of the shows because I feel like
everyone will already know what they are, but just in case,

(01:02:28):
I will make sure to include all that. But Thank
you so much for your time. It's been such a joy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Thank you for having me, and I've really enjoyed listening
to your podcast and seeing all your work and the
community that you've built. So thank you for everything you've done.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Like I said at the start of this conversation, this
was actually the first time I'd ever sat down to
chat with Jesse, and yet somehow I feel like we
had been friends for a million years. I could tell
her pretty much anything, my deebest, darkest fears, all my vulnerabilities.
She's just one of those warm, intelligent, articulate people that
you just can't hear enough of. I could have chatted
to her for hours and probably will have her back

(01:03:04):
on the show at some point. Definitely going to go
and reread her two books. If you don't follow her already,
you absolutely should. I suspect most of you probably already do.
But in case you don't, I will pop the link
to her page in the show notes, as well as
the link to the shows she hosts on Mamma Maya
and her two beautiful books. In the meantime, I hope
you guys are having a wonderful week. The silly season

(01:03:27):
isn't too silly, too quickly. I feel like it's starting
earlier and earlier every year. It is absolutely wild. But
I hope you're all looking after yourselves and seizing ya.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
How loud as. We hope you enjoyed this episode of
hearing Jesse wang.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
On, hang on, hang on about things. I'm the wonderful
season like this, I know from you. I think Sarah
Davidson is really interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
I like her vibes, I know, And there are great
conversations happening in that podcast feed all the time, So
go over there if you would like to hear more.
If you haven't had a chance to listen to Friday's
episode of Mummer out Loud, we discussed boredom. There is
a link in the show notes. We'll be back in
your ears tomorrow. Bite