June 18, 2025 • 42 mins
There's a standout star on Duchess Meghan’s latest long-form interview, but surprise... it's not Megs. Enter one Emma Grede: Skims co-founder, Shark Tank guest judge, and the new archetype of the modern girl boss. While Meghan’s business advice is a little on the fluffy side, Emma’s empire—from shapewear to podcasts to philanthropic pledges—has Mia exhausted.
Meanwhile, Holly is bringing Etsy witches back with a dark update. What happens when your Etsy witch dies mid-spell? It happened and the buyer of this magical intervention isn't happy.
Plus, someone returns from therapy with two anxiety hacks that might just change your life... or at least put your performance anxiety on hiatus for a while.
And the debate about a debate: Why are South Australian high schools debating the legitimacy of 'Tradwives'? Jessie's extensive debate career (ages 13-16), has prepared her for this moment.
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- Emma Grede cold-called Kris Jenner with an idea. Now she's worth $600 million.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Maya out Loud, where women come for a debrief.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Meya Friedman, and.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I'm Jesse Stevens. And here's what.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Made our agenda for today, Wednesday, the eighteenth of June,
the Duchess of Megan has sat down for a long
interview about her Girl Boss credentials. But it's the woman
who's interviewing her who we really want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I saw my therapist last week and there are a
couple of helpful tips about anxiety that I wanted to
share with the.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Group and the school debating topic that had parents calling
with complaints.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
But first, in case you missed it. While some people
are using AI to write letters to their landlord or
maybe help them with their grocery lists, others more masochistic
people are turning to chat GPT to find out how
hot they are. People are uploading images of themselves and
asking for unsparing assessments of their looks.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
That is simply none of them. I don't know why
I would none of that.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I wouldn't do that if you threatened me with something.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
But it gets worse because then they're sharing the results
on social media. So they're also in some cases asking
a ID to formulate a plan for them to glow
up or improve their appearance. Now, our big boss Ruth
did this in the service of journalism, Jesse, because none
of us us. What did she say and.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
What was she told? That poor woman.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I will say Ruth has a great face, great face privilege,
but hers came back with thanks for sharing your photo
exclamation mark, enthusiastic pity. While I can't rate or judge
personal appearance, I can say this, your hair is absolutely stunning.
The rich red tone is eye catching, an elegant blah
blah blah blah blah. Oh if you're looking to dial
up the hot factor, this is when it gets bitchy.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Hang on a second. So I thought, like, that's actually
quite lovely.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, it's the complement sandwich, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
So to feel better about myself, I should do this.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
And then just say what are the pretty things? Because
then we've got some feedback.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I don't try to chat GPT being my hype girl.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Okay, do you want to hear how they deliver criticism?
Yeah right, if you're looking to dial up the hot factor,
not that you need to. Here are a few ideas
depending on your vibe. I love how chat JPT speaks
to women, speaks toss like we're all twelve anyway, subtle
glow up tips, and it's got a little fire emoji hair.
You've already got to stand out color. Yeah, we know
you said that a face framing cut or long layers
could add movement and volume, make up a touch more contrast,
(02:42):
a deeper berry lip wardrobe, jewel tones, blah blah blah.
The truth you already look composed, self assured, and completely magnetic. Okay,
so I think that sign me up. It's actually quite nice.
But what I've seen going around on TikTok is people
saying like you could get your eyebrows waxed.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Or like suggesting surgery.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
And I know, but how long until it is? I mean,
this is AI is not a polite person on the
other end, it's just input related, I suppose, And I
think it's dangerous. Isn't it funny how since the advent
of the Internet, it's like porn and am I ugly?
And the two things that human beings seem to gravitate.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
True, because I remember clearly in one of my early
jobs that had access to the Internet on the work computers,
what most people spent their lunch times doing was going
to a site called am I Hot or not dot
com and just putting pictures of themselves up there and
asking it if they were hot. And that was in
the early cutesy days of the Internet. Now, of course,
(03:42):
what's interesting is that all those things that chat gpt
suggested to Ruth Jewel tones Berry lip, she might suddenly
find ads for that in her feed tomorrow. What about
this emerald green sweater? What about this lip blurring product?
It's not as innocent as it was.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
It's sinister, Holly, it is incredibly sinister.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Look, let's not pretend that I didn't break my thumb
listening to the latest interview with Megan Markle or makes
Ussex or whatever we call her these days, because she's
just done a long form interview, which is what we call,
you know, like a proper podcast interview where you sit
down for a long time and like nineteen minutes ninety minutes.
The topics are wide ranging. She did one of these
(04:25):
when as ever and the first season with Love Megan dropped.
Since she sort of broke cover, she's been you know,
lying love for a couple of years. But this year,
since she's been back on the trail with her business,
she's done one of these and then she's done another one,
and she's done it with a podcast called a Spire,
which is hosted by a woman called Emma Greed.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
I think we need a moment to catch everyone up
with who Emm Agreed is, because if you haven't heard
her name yet, you're about to. She has just like
burst onto the scene.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
She has, but she has been around, but more largely
behind the scenes for quite some time. Do you want
a quick cheats on Emma?
Speaker 4 (05:00):
So?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Emma Greed is forty two. She was born in London
to like a single mom, working class, oldest of four kids.
Her mom was why her dad is a make and dissent.
She has hustled, she says, since she was twelve. She
has worked in all kinds of levels of jobs and
then she found her feet in fashion right and in
her sort of twenties and early thirties she was quite
(05:21):
high up making deals between fashion brands and celebrities. So
in the days when you'd be like, we need a
model to sell our sweaters, she was one of the
people who would come in and make the deals for
lots of companies, and then one day she's like, why
don't we just cut out the middle map and with
her husband, YenS, who is himself a very very successful
(05:42):
fashion dude. He is the man behind Framed Denim, for example,
which is a really fancy jeans brand. They have been
the engine really behind a lot of the Kardashians big
brands in particular. So she went to Chris Jenna and
pitched Good American, which is Chloe's size inclusive deni brand,
very affordable, very low price point, very inclusive range. Pitched
(06:05):
that went great guns They're like, oh what about Kim?
What can we do for Kim? They were instrumental in
making Skims.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
And both of those products. I mean, we all know
that celebrity brand extensions exist, but both of those products
are understood to be on their own terms, very good.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Products and very successful. So Skims is rumored to be
worth around four billion dollars, and who owns Skims is
Kim Kardashian. The Greeds and some investors like they have
a slice in that they don't just work for Kim.
In fact, lots of people suggest that Kim really works
for Emma, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And it's been very interesting because Emma is clearly the
business brain and the brand brain behind SKIMS. I think
Kim's official title is like creative director, and it's very
much built in her image. But what's interesting is, as
you say, Holly, she's you know, SKIMS is not new.
It's been around a few years now, five years, I think, yeah,
and so is Good American. But suddenly Emma Greed's got
(07:00):
a podcast. She's doing the rounds of all the other podcasts,
being interviewed. She is making a huge amount of social content,
and it's really interesting because, to be completely shallow, she
looks like she's always been out there, like she's incredibly beautiful,
incredibly stylish, very charismatic.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Great talent.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, and she's she's been a judge on the English
and the American version of Shark Tank for the last
few years, so it's not like this is her first outing.
But it's suddenly gone to a whole other level. And
the rumors are that that is because something about the
contract with Kim and Skims. Chris Jenner is reportedly looking
for other investors, other partners. Whether that relationships sourd or not,
(07:43):
or whether it's just a contractual period where she had
to not talk about Skims publicly and only Kim could.
Who knows. But she's very much having her main character mind.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
She is, and what's really interesting about her is that
she is very and this is what we really wanted
to talk about. She's very girl boss energy right now.
Girl bosses have had a bad rap these last few years,
but Emma is kind of the face of this very
power bit in inverted common vibe that seems to be
back in terms muscle culture, a very hustle So she's
(08:14):
massively hustly. She takes no prisoners. Here's a little bit,
for example, of her talking about some of her philosophies
around business on the immensely successful Diary of a CEO podcast.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Work life balance is your problem. It isn't the employer's responsibility. Look,
I've for kids, and I had to figure out how
I would think about my own ambition balanced with my
parenting estry. And we have to have a level of
honesty about what it takes to be really successful.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
But is it possible to be number one but still
have all of my egains and week?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
No, no, no, If it's possible, tell me.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Who she is and I'll show you a liar.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Don't you love the classical music?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Now?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I know that's Emma's vibe? She is very Kim Kardashian's
get your ass up and work. That is what Emma
is like. Now, our friend Megan Business Lady apparently not
really like that. What did you think about this meeting
of the girl bosses on the Iconic Emma's podcast?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So I listened to the whole thing, ninety minutes of it,
and I also watch some of it on social and
on YouTube, and to me, I felt so many things.
The first I need to unpack them with you guys.
The first thing I felt was absolute exhaustion that now,
in addition to running a business, you also have to
have a podcast giving all of your business wisdom. Look
(09:31):
like a million bucks dress, immaculate, do all these glamorous
photo shoots, make all this social media like, really perform
your work and also be teaching other women how to
do it? Now? I know I used to have a
podcast called Lady startup and I started lady startup and
I used to do that. I get it.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
But in your defense, you don't look a million bucks.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Well, it's true.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
I do what I have to.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
It's like even watching them be interviewed, it's Megan. They're
both wearing fifteen centimeter sky high stilettos.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
But the big part of Emma's brando as aspiration, right,
So if you follow her on social it's private jets,
it's a massive Malibu beach house. It's a different burke
and bag for every time. It's very right. So this
is a very specific asthetic.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
And then Meghan's whole girl boss stick. It's a different
type of girl boss. It's all about I'm also not
missing out on anything with my children, and I like
to make their lunches. It's kind of like the the
traad wife girl boss, and I'm just doing it to
be real and to help other women and to bring joy.
So her girl bossism is completely altruistic. And I find
(10:39):
both of those models for what it takes to be
a female entrepreneur incredibly frustrating.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
I think it just represents the bind that all women
are in. So Megan said a few times that she's
flying the plane while making the plane, which I say every.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Day, and which is true when you're an entrepreneur. That's true,
I have to say. And I've just got to get
this on my chest, all this stuff, and I know
this is what you have to do to promote a business. Now,
she's like being interviewed for nineteen minutes about her wisdom
about starting a business. She's been in business for two seconds.
Netflix are her partner. It hasn't gone that well. She's
(11:14):
started and stopped and renamed and sold out.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
But that is the business. So there's this quote by
Emily Sundberg who says, the aesthetic of work, the performance
of ambition, can be more polished than the business behind it.
It also becomes the attachment point for ads and subscriptions,
and before long, the building in public content is the business.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So I think it's like and that's frustrating.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
But what I meant to say about the flying the
plane is that she's flying the plane, she's making the plane.
You've also got to make content about the making and
flying at the plan.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
And I'm not saying I'm just necessarily frustrated at these
particular women. I'm not at all it's like hate the game,
not the player, the game that women have to perform
their work while they're doing it and look immaculate while
doing it and somehow be our true as Dick and
be helping everybody. The thing with Megan is that her
experience of being in business is so specific to Megan
(12:07):
that it actually it's not it's just not real. It
applies to literally nobody else but Megan.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
I've found em, agreed, the far more interesting player in this.
I know what you mean. And I also think that
Megan is in a bind because if you are a
female business owner, and me you know this better than anyone.
You don't get to just be the CEO. You've got
to be the brand ambassador. You've got to be the face.
You've got to be the personality. You have to be
the promise. And that's why female businesses can be uniquely vulnerable,
(12:36):
because Maya takes one step to the left and the
business is in trouble. And so what we've talked about
is that like having your business attached to a single identity.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So much pressure and I think so so much pressure. Now,
if you can hear the emotion in my voice and
the frustration at my voice.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
I do.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I want it to come across that I am frustrated
at these women. I'm not at all. I've been a
business owner for seventeen years, a co founder with my husband.
It is a lot. And maybe I'm jealous that I
don't have that calm and that wisdom and that confidence,
and I don't look immaculate and I don't make sure
I miss no moments with any child and don't let
(13:15):
anything sleep and make lunches. Maybe I just feel insecure.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
But Emma Greed isn't that. She isn't that for a second.
What Emma Greed is about is she's like, you'll work
your ass off, you'll sacrifice everything, and it will be hard.
I hear your frustration, and I get it. But I
think that actually what we're seeing is different versions of
female bosses. And that's inevitable, right because all the bosses
and all the business owners just used to be dudes.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Do do do doo, dude.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
And they all were called John and they all looked
the same, and nobody gave a shit about their lives.
They just got to live there, spend their money and
have a good time. That's changing for men too. If
you think about one of the most successful podcasts in
the world is Diary of a CEO, Like, how much
time does Stephen Bartlett spend now performing being the really
successful CEO versus actually being the really successful CEO? And
(13:59):
there are others that are ja shetty. There are quite
a lot because now business people, particularly super successful ones,
or certainly ones who appear that way, are the new aspiration.
They used to be a little bit of sort of
sneer about that but or thinking it was boring or
thinking it was unsexy. But now when you think about
every movie star and celebrity and the kind of people
(14:20):
that we used to aspire to, they all want to
be CEOs. Gwyneth Paltrow. So it's almost like, yeah, it's
so interesting. So I think it's inevitable as more women
reach that level, whether they're owning their own businesses and
running them or whether they're just really high up in businesses.
And we don't know the names of lots of female
CEOs who are running businesses, but if they are forward facing,
(14:42):
they're going to look all different ways, don't they.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But they don't. So the ones that we know are
the ones who look hot and the ones who are
comfortable being on TV and doing podcasts and doing those
interviews and posting those glamour shots, and it just feels
like more pressure.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
But you know what that's called is It's called strategy,
and I think that we don't present it. You know,
we talk about unpaid female labor. The unpaid female labor
of having to perform your business while doing it is
something that we see with so many Australian entrepreneurs who
are women. We see it with Laura Henshaw, the CEO
of Kick. Most of her job wouldn't be glamorous, but
part of what she does is showing up on social
(15:17):
media and it's a great business strategy. The same with
Jane Lou from Show Poe. Like, the other person who's
come out is the founder of cosmetics Jamie Kern Lima.
She's launched this podcast.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
And that's who Megan did her interviews. So now I'm
just like, I barely do any of these interviews. Maybe
I'm jealous that I'm not being asked. I don't think
it's that. I think it's more that all these female
CEOs and founders seem to just go on each other's
podcasts about CEOs and founders, And I'm like, when is
anyone getting their work done, because.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I think that's part of the work. Though it's part
of promotion, it's part of strategy. In mind, I.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Get that, but it used to be that the CEO
was different to the person who went out and was
the face and was the all of that. And because
they're different skills, and some people like it and some
people don't, and it's more just I don't know, it
just feels like another thing on your to do list
and the bar being raised even high.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
What we need to remember too, is that still the
funding that goes to female founders is so small, Like
I was reading something about it, and look, the stats
and data is all over the place, but there is
absolutely a gender bias in anything to do with female
owned businesses. And so you can see why these sort
(16:31):
of networks exist. There was a study out of the
University of Virginia that was about how women incur greater
penalties for ethical transgressions. So if there is like the
smallest thing that a woman does wrong, they did this
study and worked out that not only that, but they
need the woman to personally apologize in a way that
if it's a male CEO. They don't. They don't require
(16:54):
the man to take full responsibility for what happened. So
there are all these biases existing. And look, I found
parts of that interview grading, but I was listening to
it going these are two women of color who a
generation or two ago would face and continue to face
systemic barriers in business, and like, this is, in that
(17:15):
way an exciting and maybe progressive conversation.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I also found it quite interesting because most of the
interviews you hear with Megan, or the ones that she's
presenting herself on, are very fluffy. I don't think that
Emma Greed asked about the royal family, didn't talk about
Prince Harry. It was about business, particularly the first half
of it, and I actually found it quite interesting because
it was the first time i'd heard Meghan talk about
why the business name change, why all the stop starts.
(17:39):
And she made the point that a lot of businesses
will go through all that kind of stuff but behind
the scenes. But she can't go through anything behind the
scenes because there is no greater magnifying glass on anyone
than there is on Megan. So when she's like, oh,
and then Netflix came with an offer and we thought
maybe it would be better to do it like that,
so we paused things and we did that. I'm like, well, yeah,
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I kind of I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And I find Emma really interesting, Like I couldn't be
less like her. I don't want to be anything like her,
but as a kind of version of female success in
this moment, she's really interesting and quite refreshing.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
And me, you've talked about this, how when you're in
a position of you know, running a business, there's this
expectation that you'll be sort of charitable and dole out
free advice, right, And there's this idea about mentorship and
may can we get a coffee on Tuesday?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
And we've also got to be a mother because people
are very uncomfortable about women in business. So the way
that they're often attacked is either that they're bad mothers,
or they're not caring enough about, you know, their teams,
or sometimes they're difficult or assertive.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
But the idea is that you will mentor other young
women because that is consistent with our feminine understanding of women.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
And I thought with them, agreed. I thought this is
smart because people expect you to dole out free advice.
Monetize it, like if you're going to sit there and
give out business advice that you've spent your whole career acquiring.
There were, you know, fifty ads that played during that podcast.
She got paid good money to give out.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You also spoke a lot about women not wanting to
talk about money, and she likes to talk about money
because obviously money is a very big motivator for her.
And I've heard her talk about how, you know, the
fat she owns, this big Malibu beach house gives her
exceptional pleasure, which is something that you don't hear particularly
women saying, and that's her vibe. That's what she does.
(19:31):
But she does have a fund where she does give
money to people of color starting business in America. She
is on the Obama Foundation, so she does tick all
those boxes too. But she's very This is the bit
that I'm a bit uncomfortable with this. There's a lot
of people saying that this new version of the girl Boss,
girl Boss is dead, this kind of much more boss
bitch version. And I know that phrases Yucky is very trumpy,
(19:55):
it's trump coded, it's very like eighties greed is good.
The powersuit the heels like and I can see that too,
and the emm agreed of the world make an absolute
point of being completely apolitical, being completely we are across
the aisle like. It's interesting in terms of what it
says about where we're at.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
There's a bit of modeling in terms of I suppose
being the male CEO and if you can't beat them,
join them.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
In a moment. I want to tell you about the
conversation I had with my therapist this week. I'm sure
everyone's going to be very excited. Maybe I need to
talk to about girl Blessing. So last week I had
a conversation with my therapist. I haven't spoken to her
for a while. Fun fact, she's also Jesse's therapists.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
On my therapist, I feel like that's a dilemma my
mother in law style my therapist.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Could you get anymore? Could you get any more?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And meshed makes it hard when I want to talk
about Jesse or when she wants to bitch about me.
I don't know how she balances that. But she's actually
a performance psychologist, so she works with a lot of
actors and performers and podcasters and anyone who has to
sort of have a public face to what they do.
And one of the things that we were talking about
(21:06):
is anxiety. And I have anxiety. I've been medicated for
it for a long time, but that feeling of stress
or tension or even nerves. I was telling her how
I've kind of lost my mojo a bit with podcasting,
and how I've felt like a bit nervous sometimes behind
the microphone, and things that I haven't experienced for a
(21:27):
long time. She gave me two really great tricks for
when you're feeling anxious or nervous or.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Stressed, which appear in everyone's life if you're doing a
meeting or if you're putting your hand up or.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Having to give a speech, or having to go and
have a conversation with your boss or whatever it is.
So both of them are things that affect your body
without you even realizing it. And one is about breathing
and one is about stretching. And that might seem really,
really boring because I know there's lots of box breathing
techniques and all these different techniques, and she said, the
only technique that she's ever been able to retain is
(22:01):
this particular one. She basically said, the principle behind this,
biochemically in your body is the same. We have two
different nervous systems going. The first is the parasympathetic nervous system,
which is about rest and digest and that's activated when
we exhale or when we stretch, because when you think
(22:22):
about it, you can't be in fight or flight mode,
which is our sympathetic nervous system, which gets us ready
to act or do something or face a challenge when
you are stretching, when your muscles are stretched out, or
when you're breathing out. So when you breathe in, that
activates our sympathetic nervous system, which is fight or flight.
(22:43):
And when you breathe out. That's why when you nervous
start breathing.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Faster and quite shallow and you start going.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
So when you breathe out, you've got to breathe out.
You try to make a sound like this.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
It's like ASMR, except I hate it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Okay, sorry, you can make it a bit quiet. You
don't have to make a sound. But the idea is
that you breathe out until like there's literally nothing left
that you're so squished, and then your lungs are a vacuum,
so you don't need to even breathe in. You just
release it fills up, You'll fill up a little bit,
and then you do it again, so you really focus
on the exhale. Now, you can do this while you're driving.
You can do this in a meeting. You don't have
to make the sound, but if you're alone that helps.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
You can do it on stage.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
You can do it on stage. You can do it
right before you go on stage. Right. So that's the
first one. The second one is this idea of stretching,
because it's the same when your shoulders are up and
your tents, that means your sympathetic nervous system is activated.
You are in fight or flight and you're ready to
respond to challenges and stress. So what that does is
it releases cortisol and adrenaline. Same when you're inhaling a
(23:53):
lot to try and calm themselves down, people will often
take a deep breath, but it's actually the opposite that
you should be doing. Should be doing a big exhale.
So what's a stretch that you should be any stretch like,
there's not a special stretch, just anything. When your muscles
are stretched out, your body knows that your muscles are.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Stretched out, You're saying I'm safe.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
You're saying I'm safe. You're saying I can't be about
to run or fight because I'm stretching right. So it's
one of those tricks that circumvents all the business in
your brain and just gives a signal straight to your body.
And I've been using it this week. I wanted to
make sure it worked before I shared it with everyone,
and it really does.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
The breathing thing. If I can find a minute, because
I find that in the car is often the only
kind of alone time I get. If I can take
a minute before I get out and just do the
breathing thing, let's change my life. Makes me think so
much clearer. I remember being told you as well. Yeah,
and I've been told that my big fear is going blank.
We've talked about about this, whether it's on stage or whatever. Basically,
you won't go blank if you're breathing properly. It's like,
(24:55):
if you are properly doing that. When I've gone blank before,
it's because I've stopped breathing and it literally oxygen supply
cuts off and then your brain just goes book and
you can't concentrate. So that's been my one thing, and
I think it's just self fulfilling. It's like I tell myself, Oh,
when I'm breathing, okay, I'm fine, and then I am.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
So let us try these two things if you're stressed
or nervous or feeling anxious in the moment, and let
us know how you.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Go after the break. The debate topic that had parents
very angrily calling the school, We're going to tell you
more about that story you might have missed in a moment.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
There was a story you might have missed last week
that I have been busting to talk to you both about. Right,
it's very divisive and I feel like we're not going
to all agree. Here's what happened. Year nine, students in
South Australia were given a debate topic. Did either of
you do debating at school? No, Holly, you would have
been greater.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I didn't go to the kind of school where you
got to do things right.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
In Australia, all the schools do like they offer it,
but only the uncle kids do it, which is why
I loved it. That's how I spent my Friday nights
doing my debating.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
How about you, may I did a lot of debating,
but not in the formal sense. So I'm a part of.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
A debate with your mom.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, yeah, oh, I did a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I did a lot of debating why I should be
allowed to stay out later stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Yes, well, I did debating, and there's three speakers and
it's very kind of formal anyway. The way it works
is that there's a topic and there's an affirmative team
and a negative team. You don't get to choose.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
I know how debating work.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
No, no, but not everybody.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Not everyone. Yeah, okay, okay, look at you debating. You're
getting angry exactly. Come on, take a deep debating. But
I know what a debate means.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I'm sorry, okay, I stretching.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
The debate topic was that the tradwife movement is good
for women, right, so one team is going to be
given affirmative one.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
I know this is a little bit to eat me up,
but so the way it works, a statement like the tradwife,
and then three of you have to argue, yes, the
tradewrite movement is good for women, and three of you
have to argue, no, the tradwife movement is bad for women.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And you don't get to choose. You don't get that
would annoy people a great deal.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
It would How do the kids that are debating this
and are they boys or girls or mixed?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Year nine so I'm going to say fifteen, fourteen, fifteen
and mixed.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Then came the backlash, so some on social media said
this would force women to argue for their own subjugation.
Ather called the not for profit the organization that does it.
Not for profit called them on the phone, yelled at
them and said this is ridiculous. This is sexist, which
doesn't feel in the spirit of debating. But anyway, debating
South Australia got a shock. They came out and said
(27:55):
that they were using the word tradwife as interchangeable with
a stay at home mother.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, that's their first mistake because anyone who is literate
in the world of tradwives, and I am way too
literate in the word of they are not the same thing.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Explain the difference.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
A state at home mother, which is not a popular
term now anyway, is anyone whose main job is looking
after their kids. Tradwives are literally people whose identity is
very much tied up with a very traditional version of
homemaking that usually also involves making all your food from scratches,
showing any process food, maybe even conventional education a certain way.
(28:34):
Also that part of the tradwife thing, rightly or wrongly,
is that you are subjugated to your husband. The husband
is the head of the house. There is not a
tradwife model where the husband is not the head of
the house. So you also have to have a husband.
So a stay at home mum could be any kind
of family model, any kind of thing. A tradwife is
a very specific.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Thing, And you're right. I was being facetious about Megan,
because tradwives, the idea is you right, they don't earn money.
So it's all about very traditional gender roles, and whether
they do that on the internet or not, it's about
traditional gender roles.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
So the Debating Association actually wrote to schools and said
what we meant was a traditional wife. It is not
about submission to a man inside the home. It's about
someone who stays at home and looks up to kids.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Maya, they feel like a baby wandering into a wood,
like I didn't know that I was going to tread
on a big spike and a bet money. It's like, guys,
I'm talking about trad wife with people getting up, I
will say those they were driving over the spikes.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
About the process of debating, is that your first speaker
one of the first things you do, because there's a
whole there's a whole strategy, there's a whole process. First
thing you gotta do. Definition, you have to get up.
And the worst kind of debates are what we call
definitional debates. And that's when one team defines it as
one thing and the other defines it as something else.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Why is that a bad debate because you're not because.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
You're not arguing the same thing. And often and we
call it. I used to adjudicating for debating as well,
we end up calling it. And even if debate, and
what we do is we say, even if you define
trad wife as blah, I'm going to start arguing on
your terms because otherwise, very unsatisfying, unproductive debate. If we're
just arguing about definitions, which I would say, shouldn't we
(30:19):
all be going back there because the definitional debate. I
don't think some people branding themselves as tradwife mean the
same thing as these tradewives.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Like.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Sitting down and debating the definition of tradwife is an interesting,
important process, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah it is. But the point here, or at least
as far as I see it, is that debating tradwives
is incredibly valid, right they are, just as we just
talked about this sort of girl boss, boss bitch archetype
that seems to be looming at the minute. Tradwife is
definitely another There is a lot of content out there
about that. It is very much an aspirational model of
womanhood that's out there. It is not the same as
(30:54):
I don't have a paying job at the minute and
I'm looking after kids. And the thing is is I
think they thought it was, but it's not. And so
I know that's a definitional debate, but that was their
first mistake.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Maya, would you call the school and make a law comment.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
It was funny because when you first told us about
this this morning in the planning meeting, I was like, Oh,
that's ridiculous. That's just what a debate is. Sometimes you
have to argue things you don't it. Yeah, argue for
things that you don't agree with. That's the whole point.
And that's the skill of being a debater, that you
have to be able to debate something regardless of what
you personally believe. But then I read a little bit more.
(31:26):
I read some commentary from Rebecca Sparrow who published an
email on her Facebook page. She's like a writes a
lot about teen girls and school and speaks in schools
about friendship and other things. And this email from someone
who was objecting to it basically said, at a time
when there is the Andrew Tait of it all, and
there are some pretty controversial, troubling ideas we saw in adolescence.
(31:50):
If you look at that as the backdrop here, teachers, schools, parents,
girls and boys are all having a lot of trouble
working with these issues, right about girls and boys. So
to overlay that on it, it almost feels like during
the time of the marriage equality debate, having a debate
(32:12):
about whether same sex marriage should be allowed or whether
same sex marriage is bad for the world, it feels very,
very fraught in a way that is kind of beyond
an action.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
That's such an interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Thing, isn't that the point of debating though, to be
fraud I mean, we would debate things about like lowering
the voting age or whatever, but then climate change or
smoking or vegetarianism. In order to know what you think
about something, and this is a philosophical principle, you need
to be able to put words around the other side.
Speaker 6 (32:45):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
And let's imagine too, that you have a fifteen or
a sixteen year old boy who is like our boy
from adolescence, right, and he has those traditional ideas. What
if he gets the negative and that boy has to
stand up and argue that being a tried wife isn't
good for women, And that's an exercise for him to
consider the other side, and they have to listen to it.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Except he won't. This is what we're learning that people
tend to screen out things they don't agree with and
into things they do agree with.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Well, that's what they do on social media. But the
whole point of a debate is that you actually put
everything on the table and the rules of a debate,
which don't exist on bloody TikTok and on most podcasts
I listen to is that you go, Okay, these are
my arguments, this is my evidence. I'm going to refute
what you said, and I'm not going to bring up
anything personal. I'm going to just talk about the facts
(33:32):
and you come to a conclusion. And I think that
often some middle ground can be found.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So I respect that, and I entirely agree that any
strongly held opinion that you hold, being literate in the
opposition to it is essential, right, I one hundred percent agree,
and I think it's one of the things that we've
lost in public debate. Certainly not the first person say that. However,
I also very much can see what me is saying,
(33:56):
because one of the things that's always troubled me about
debates is that just because you can mount a good
argument doesn't make you right, you know what I mean, Like,
there is no argument in the world that would convey
me of some things just because you are really smart
and really clever and you've cherry picked the right facts
and you've made it laugh. No, no, it doesn't mean
(34:18):
you don't debate it. But the problem with presenting debating
as a competition, where always one size wins and one
side loses is I don't think that proves that the
argument was wrong. So I could never just because of
my own personal prejudices. Probably I would love to be
in a debate about trad wives, but there isn't actually
(34:39):
an argument in the world that would make me think
that it was a wonderful thing for my daughter to
be a tradwife.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
What I mean Jesse playing it out. So the side
that has to argue that trad wives make the world
better and that subjugating women and traditional gender roles are
better for the world, they're just better debaters and they
win exactly. So what message And I know what you're saying,
And again I see both sides, which is why I'm
probably a terrible debater. What message does that send? Because
(35:07):
you're right, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's true. But
when you're talking about kids.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And the boys at school, they're saying to the girls
at school like, tidwives are great, we want that debate.
You guys don't know what you're talking about. Like, I
can see why I'm not saying they shouldn't debate. I
don't think anything should be off the table as such,
but I can see why a school setting with boys
and girls of that age, where as me has already
pointed out, relations are quite fraught, right, don't really want
(35:34):
to bring that into their world. I can understand that,
even though it's really interesting, because I can see that philosophically,
losing the art of debating is a terrible thing. But
I also think that presenting it as a purely competitive
sport almost and dealing with really big life and death
cultural issues is not great for a bunch of fourteen
(35:57):
year olds to live on TikTok.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
I don't think it is life or death cultural. I
think that there are a lot of things that are
currently in the zeitgeist that I would say that is
not for a unite debate, like absolutely, but this one.
If we assume that this is in their world anyway,
that they have to define it, They have to grapple
with it, they have to deal with the facts, they
(36:19):
have to argue whichever way they want to say. It's
good for women or it's bad for women. When someone
wins a debate, it is not because the adjudicator thinks
they were right. It's because of how they fashion the argument.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, exactly so, but it will be interpreted as that
they were right.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
I think that you want to keep these kids engaged
in these topics, right, and a lot of them can
be quite boring and stale, and so I just think
that to me, it is more about the process of
the debate, and I think that both sides have lost
that entirely. And it might be controversial and it might
make for some awkward moments, but at least they are
(36:56):
going with like principled argumentation that isn't you're a girl
and you belong in the kitchen.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
But civil discourse trying to model to kids.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
And I do agree with all of that, and I
think I misspoke before when I said life or death issue,
because you're right, this isn't necessarily But I think the
reason why it takes me there is because it troubles
me a lot that in the world of a fourteen
fifteen year old girl, and obviously I have skin in
this game, there is still some kind of live debate
(37:26):
out there about whether or not she should be allowed
to have autonomy over her choices, and whether or not
she makes money, and whether or not her gender should
define what she does seem upsets me a lot. So
that's probably why I get Mamura and the thing is
is in theory in a lovely theoretical sense. It's great
to debate that, but in the rough and tumble of
(37:49):
a high school, in lots of ways, I agree with you, Jesse,
but I think that the parents who were calling and
the people who were upset, I also can see why
because I don't think I would love it if my
daughter was coming home and saying, you know, we were
on the women should be able to live however they
want to live side, and we lost and now we'll
be you know what I mean? Like I just yes, tricking.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
It's one to really chew over out louders. I'm fascinated
to know what you think. I keep flicking around and around.
You can tell who's the debate here because Holly and
I like but on the other hand, But on the
other hand, we're a very gray area.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Who remembers a conversation we had a couple of weeks
ago about Etsy Witches.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
I do I don't think this one over here was.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
That I wasn't here, but I listened to it was funny.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Quick refresher. Apparently, despite cost of living pressures, et cetera,
quite a lot of people are paying money for witches
on Etsy to solve their problems. Highly reviewed lift curses,
cast attraction spells, etc.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I also love that it's on Etsy. It's not on
air Tasker. No, it's not even on Google. It's on Etsy,
which is like where you go to buy craft home
making crafts.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
So Etsy Witch is now another another thing we can
choose from the menu of life. Problem is you can't
always control your witch. Please listen to this message from
a young man called Stephen Stetks on TikTok about a
district pressing development in which.
Speaker 6 (39:11):
World I think I'm going to cry. My Etsy witch
has died. I have no one to talk to about this,
but I hired this lady from etsay to remove this
ancient generational curse anyway, and she said it would take
about three weeks to kick him. It's been about a month,
so I've not heard anything. So I messaged her the
(39:32):
other day just to say, hey, when is a spell complete?
When can I expect to receive this slow of energy?
And her daughter just messaged me back tonight to say
her mum had died, which is so sad. But at
the same time, does anyone know if this means this
spell is still active. Like I'm not sure if the
(39:54):
spell dies with the witch or what happens, and I
don't want to ask.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I think the spell is in trine. I think she's
cast hopefully she cast it before she died, and very sad.
We're not laughing about the fact that she died.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Very sad.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
It's never happy when summer dies. But I think it's
out there. I think it just maybe has to settle.
I don't know if she has to close it. What
the hell do I know?
Speaker 3 (40:18):
My auntsy witch died is the most uniquely twenty twenty
five sentence.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
I imagine saying that to your grandmother.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I know, I know, And also I just feel like
Stephen and he has a lovely Scottish accent. But it's
like Stephen, this was an inside problem.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Tell everybody no, I think it's a public service because
now everyone has to consider that when they're engaging with
an Etsy.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Wait, you think you can ask for your money back?
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (40:42):
What?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
No?
Speaker 3 (40:44):
No, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
From this stage, this is the kind of etiquette we
need to here.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
When can you get a refund from your auntsy?
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Wear out loudest, That is all we have time for today?
Are massive thank you to all of you for listening
to our show, and our wonderful team for putting this
show together. I would also like to remind you that
if you're watching us and you can notice how glorious
our backdrop is.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Or you've seen us in social and you've seen.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Us on socials, our student a stale by furniture from
Fenton and Fenton and you can find out more about
that at Fenton and Fenton dot com dot.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
We'll be back in your ears tomorrow, but first, if.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
You're looking for something else to listen to. On yesterday's
subscriber episode, Holly m and I shared the books that
changed our lives? May or do you have anything you
want to add?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
I was new vitecause I can't read.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
No exactly right exactly, So if you're looking for something
to read right now, or if it started this fantastic
conversation the mum Mind Facebook group, we should share some
of them on Instagram, but go to the Outlouders Facebook
group and there is a thread I was trawling through
last night of everyone sharing the book that changed their life,
and it's it's lovely. That's what you need sometimes, so
they are Jane Austen no, no, no, A lot of
(41:51):
Marcus Zuzak. They're great recommendations. A link, as always, will
be in the show notes. Bye bye bye.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Shout out to any mum and Mia subscribers listening. If
you love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There is a think in the episode
description
Speaker 2 (42:21):
M
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Maya out Loud, where women come for a debrief.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Meya Friedman, and.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I'm Jesse Stevens. And here's what.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Made our agenda for today, Wednesday, the eighteenth of June,
the Duchess of Megan has sat down for a long
interview about her Girl Boss credentials. But it's the woman
who's interviewing her who we really want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I saw my therapist last week and there are a
couple of helpful tips about anxiety that I wanted to
share with the.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Group and the school debating topic that had parents calling
with complaints.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
But first, in case you missed it. While some people
are using AI to write letters to their landlord or
maybe help them with their grocery lists, others more masochistic
people are turning to chat GPT to find out how
hot they are. People are uploading images of themselves and
asking for unsparing assessments of their looks.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
That is simply none of them. I don't know why
I would none of that.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I wouldn't do that if you threatened me with something.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
But it gets worse because then they're sharing the results
on social media. So they're also in some cases asking
a ID to formulate a plan for them to glow
up or improve their appearance. Now, our big boss Ruth
did this in the service of journalism, Jesse, because none
of us us. What did she say and.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
What was she told? That poor woman.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I will say Ruth has a great face, great face privilege,
but hers came back with thanks for sharing your photo
exclamation mark, enthusiastic pity. While I can't rate or judge
personal appearance, I can say this, your hair is absolutely stunning.
The rich red tone is eye catching, an elegant blah
blah blah blah blah. Oh if you're looking to dial
up the hot factor, this is when it gets bitchy.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Hang on a second. So I thought, like, that's actually
quite lovely.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, it's the complement sandwich, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
So to feel better about myself, I should do this.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
And then just say what are the pretty things? Because
then we've got some feedback.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I don't try to chat GPT being my hype girl.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Okay, do you want to hear how they deliver criticism?
Yeah right, if you're looking to dial up the hot factor,
not that you need to. Here are a few ideas
depending on your vibe. I love how chat JPT speaks
to women, speaks toss like we're all twelve anyway, subtle
glow up tips, and it's got a little fire emoji hair.
You've already got to stand out color. Yeah, we know
you said that a face framing cut or long layers
could add movement and volume, make up a touch more contrast,
(02:42):
a deeper berry lip wardrobe, jewel tones, blah blah blah.
The truth you already look composed, self assured, and completely magnetic. Okay,
so I think that sign me up. It's actually quite nice.
But what I've seen going around on TikTok is people
saying like you could get your eyebrows waxed.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Or like suggesting surgery.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
And I know, but how long until it is? I mean,
this is AI is not a polite person on the
other end, it's just input related, I suppose, And I
think it's dangerous. Isn't it funny how since the advent
of the Internet, it's like porn and am I ugly?
And the two things that human beings seem to gravitate.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
True, because I remember clearly in one of my early
jobs that had access to the Internet on the work computers,
what most people spent their lunch times doing was going
to a site called am I Hot or not dot
com and just putting pictures of themselves up there and
asking it if they were hot. And that was in
the early cutesy days of the Internet. Now, of course,
(03:42):
what's interesting is that all those things that chat gpt
suggested to Ruth Jewel tones Berry lip, she might suddenly
find ads for that in her feed tomorrow. What about
this emerald green sweater? What about this lip blurring product?
It's not as innocent as it was.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
It's sinister, Holly, it is incredibly sinister.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Look, let's not pretend that I didn't break my thumb
listening to the latest interview with Megan Markle or makes
Ussex or whatever we call her these days, because she's
just done a long form interview, which is what we call,
you know, like a proper podcast interview where you sit
down for a long time and like nineteen minutes ninety minutes.
The topics are wide ranging. She did one of these
(04:25):
when as ever and the first season with Love Megan dropped.
Since she sort of broke cover, she's been you know,
lying love for a couple of years. But this year,
since she's been back on the trail with her business,
she's done one of these and then she's done another one,
and she's done it with a podcast called a Spire,
which is hosted by a woman called Emma Greed.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
I think we need a moment to catch everyone up
with who Emm Agreed is, because if you haven't heard
her name yet, you're about to. She has just like
burst onto the scene.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
She has, but she has been around, but more largely
behind the scenes for quite some time. Do you want
a quick cheats on Emma?
Speaker 4 (05:00):
So?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Emma Greed is forty two. She was born in London
to like a single mom, working class, oldest of four kids.
Her mom was why her dad is a make and dissent.
She has hustled, she says, since she was twelve. She
has worked in all kinds of levels of jobs and
then she found her feet in fashion right and in
her sort of twenties and early thirties she was quite
(05:21):
high up making deals between fashion brands and celebrities. So
in the days when you'd be like, we need a
model to sell our sweaters, she was one of the
people who would come in and make the deals for
lots of companies, and then one day she's like, why
don't we just cut out the middle map and with
her husband, YenS, who is himself a very very successful
(05:42):
fashion dude. He is the man behind Framed Denim, for example,
which is a really fancy jeans brand. They have been
the engine really behind a lot of the Kardashians big
brands in particular. So she went to Chris Jenna and
pitched Good American, which is Chloe's size inclusive deni brand,
very affordable, very low price point, very inclusive range. Pitched
(06:05):
that went great guns They're like, oh what about Kim?
What can we do for Kim? They were instrumental in
making Skims.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
And both of those products. I mean, we all know
that celebrity brand extensions exist, but both of those products
are understood to be on their own terms, very good.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Products and very successful. So Skims is rumored to be
worth around four billion dollars, and who owns Skims is
Kim Kardashian. The Greeds and some investors like they have
a slice in that they don't just work for Kim.
In fact, lots of people suggest that Kim really works
for Emma, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And it's been very interesting because Emma is clearly the
business brain and the brand brain behind SKIMS. I think
Kim's official title is like creative director, and it's very
much built in her image. But what's interesting is, as
you say, Holly, she's you know, SKIMS is not new.
It's been around a few years now, five years, I think, yeah,
and so is Good American. But suddenly Emma Greed's got
(07:00):
a podcast. She's doing the rounds of all the other podcasts,
being interviewed. She is making a huge amount of social content,
and it's really interesting because, to be completely shallow, she
looks like she's always been out there, like she's incredibly beautiful,
incredibly stylish, very charismatic.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Great talent.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, and she's she's been a judge on the English
and the American version of Shark Tank for the last
few years, so it's not like this is her first outing.
But it's suddenly gone to a whole other level. And
the rumors are that that is because something about the
contract with Kim and Skims. Chris Jenner is reportedly looking
for other investors, other partners. Whether that relationships sourd or not,
(07:43):
or whether it's just a contractual period where she had
to not talk about Skims publicly and only Kim could.
Who knows. But she's very much having her main character mind.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
She is, and what's really interesting about her is that
she is very and this is what we really wanted
to talk about. She's very girl boss energy right now.
Girl bosses have had a bad rap these last few years,
but Emma is kind of the face of this very
power bit in inverted common vibe that seems to be
back in terms muscle culture, a very hustle So she's
(08:14):
massively hustly. She takes no prisoners. Here's a little bit,
for example, of her talking about some of her philosophies
around business on the immensely successful Diary of a CEO podcast.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Work life balance is your problem. It isn't the employer's responsibility. Look,
I've for kids, and I had to figure out how
I would think about my own ambition balanced with my
parenting estry. And we have to have a level of
honesty about what it takes to be really successful.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
But is it possible to be number one but still
have all of my egains and week?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
No, no, no, If it's possible, tell me.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Who she is and I'll show you a liar.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Don't you love the classical music?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Now?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I know that's Emma's vibe? She is very Kim Kardashian's
get your ass up and work. That is what Emma
is like. Now, our friend Megan Business Lady apparently not
really like that. What did you think about this meeting
of the girl bosses on the Iconic Emma's podcast?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So I listened to the whole thing, ninety minutes of it,
and I also watch some of it on social and
on YouTube, and to me, I felt so many things.
The first I need to unpack them with you guys.
The first thing I felt was absolute exhaustion that now,
in addition to running a business, you also have to
have a podcast giving all of your business wisdom. Look
(09:31):
like a million bucks dress, immaculate, do all these glamorous
photo shoots, make all this social media like, really perform
your work and also be teaching other women how to
do it? Now? I know I used to have a
podcast called Lady startup and I started lady startup and
I used to do that. I get it.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
But in your defense, you don't look a million bucks.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Well, it's true.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
I do what I have to.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
It's like even watching them be interviewed, it's Megan. They're
both wearing fifteen centimeter sky high stilettos.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
But the big part of Emma's brando as aspiration, right,
So if you follow her on social it's private jets,
it's a massive Malibu beach house. It's a different burke
and bag for every time. It's very right. So this
is a very specific asthetic.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
And then Meghan's whole girl boss stick. It's a different
type of girl boss. It's all about I'm also not
missing out on anything with my children, and I like
to make their lunches. It's kind of like the the
traad wife girl boss, and I'm just doing it to
be real and to help other women and to bring joy.
So her girl bossism is completely altruistic. And I find
(10:39):
both of those models for what it takes to be
a female entrepreneur incredibly frustrating.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
I think it just represents the bind that all women
are in. So Megan said a few times that she's
flying the plane while making the plane, which I say every.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Day, and which is true when you're an entrepreneur. That's true,
I have to say. And I've just got to get
this on my chest, all this stuff, and I know
this is what you have to do to promote a business. Now,
she's like being interviewed for nineteen minutes about her wisdom
about starting a business. She's been in business for two seconds.
Netflix are her partner. It hasn't gone that well. She's
(11:14):
started and stopped and renamed and sold out.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
But that is the business. So there's this quote by
Emily Sundberg who says, the aesthetic of work, the performance
of ambition, can be more polished than the business behind it.
It also becomes the attachment point for ads and subscriptions,
and before long, the building in public content is the business.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So I think it's like and that's frustrating.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
But what I meant to say about the flying the
plane is that she's flying the plane, she's making the plane.
You've also got to make content about the making and
flying at the plan.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
And I'm not saying I'm just necessarily frustrated at these
particular women. I'm not at all it's like hate the game,
not the player, the game that women have to perform
their work while they're doing it and look immaculate while
doing it and somehow be our true as Dick and
be helping everybody. The thing with Megan is that her
experience of being in business is so specific to Megan
(12:07):
that it actually it's not it's just not real. It
applies to literally nobody else but Megan.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
I've found em, agreed, the far more interesting player in this.
I know what you mean. And I also think that
Megan is in a bind because if you are a
female business owner, and me you know this better than anyone.
You don't get to just be the CEO. You've got
to be the brand ambassador. You've got to be the face.
You've got to be the personality. You have to be
the promise. And that's why female businesses can be uniquely vulnerable,
(12:36):
because Maya takes one step to the left and the
business is in trouble. And so what we've talked about
is that like having your business attached to a single identity.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So much pressure and I think so so much pressure. Now,
if you can hear the emotion in my voice and
the frustration at my voice.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
I do.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I want it to come across that I am frustrated
at these women. I'm not at all. I've been a
business owner for seventeen years, a co founder with my husband.
It is a lot. And maybe I'm jealous that I
don't have that calm and that wisdom and that confidence,
and I don't look immaculate and I don't make sure
I miss no moments with any child and don't let
(13:15):
anything sleep and make lunches. Maybe I just feel insecure.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
But Emma Greed isn't that. She isn't that for a second.
What Emma Greed is about is she's like, you'll work
your ass off, you'll sacrifice everything, and it will be hard.
I hear your frustration, and I get it. But I
think that actually what we're seeing is different versions of
female bosses. And that's inevitable, right because all the bosses
and all the business owners just used to be dudes.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Do do do doo, dude.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
And they all were called John and they all looked
the same, and nobody gave a shit about their lives.
They just got to live there, spend their money and
have a good time. That's changing for men too. If
you think about one of the most successful podcasts in
the world is Diary of a CEO, Like, how much
time does Stephen Bartlett spend now performing being the really
successful CEO versus actually being the really successful CEO? And
(13:59):
there are others that are ja shetty. There are quite
a lot because now business people, particularly super successful ones,
or certainly ones who appear that way, are the new aspiration.
They used to be a little bit of sort of
sneer about that but or thinking it was boring or
thinking it was unsexy. But now when you think about
every movie star and celebrity and the kind of people
(14:20):
that we used to aspire to, they all want to
be CEOs. Gwyneth Paltrow. So it's almost like, yeah, it's
so interesting. So I think it's inevitable as more women
reach that level, whether they're owning their own businesses and
running them or whether they're just really high up in businesses.
And we don't know the names of lots of female
CEOs who are running businesses, but if they are forward facing,
(14:42):
they're going to look all different ways, don't they.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But they don't. So the ones that we know are
the ones who look hot and the ones who are
comfortable being on TV and doing podcasts and doing those
interviews and posting those glamour shots, and it just feels
like more pressure.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
But you know what that's called is It's called strategy,
and I think that we don't present it. You know,
we talk about unpaid female labor. The unpaid female labor
of having to perform your business while doing it is
something that we see with so many Australian entrepreneurs who
are women. We see it with Laura Henshaw, the CEO
of Kick. Most of her job wouldn't be glamorous, but
part of what she does is showing up on social
(15:17):
media and it's a great business strategy. The same with
Jane Lou from Show Poe. Like, the other person who's
come out is the founder of cosmetics Jamie Kern Lima.
She's launched this podcast.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
And that's who Megan did her interviews. So now I'm
just like, I barely do any of these interviews. Maybe
I'm jealous that I'm not being asked. I don't think
it's that. I think it's more that all these female
CEOs and founders seem to just go on each other's
podcasts about CEOs and founders, And I'm like, when is
anyone getting their work done, because.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I think that's part of the work. Though it's part
of promotion, it's part of strategy. In mind, I.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Get that, but it used to be that the CEO
was different to the person who went out and was
the face and was the all of that. And because
they're different skills, and some people like it and some
people don't, and it's more just I don't know, it
just feels like another thing on your to do list
and the bar being raised even high.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
What we need to remember too, is that still the
funding that goes to female founders is so small, Like
I was reading something about it, and look, the stats
and data is all over the place, but there is
absolutely a gender bias in anything to do with female
owned businesses. And so you can see why these sort
(16:31):
of networks exist. There was a study out of the
University of Virginia that was about how women incur greater
penalties for ethical transgressions. So if there is like the
smallest thing that a woman does wrong, they did this
study and worked out that not only that, but they
need the woman to personally apologize in a way that
if it's a male CEO. They don't. They don't require
(16:54):
the man to take full responsibility for what happened. So
there are all these biases existing. And look, I found
parts of that interview grading, but I was listening to
it going these are two women of color who a
generation or two ago would face and continue to face
systemic barriers in business, and like, this is, in that
(17:15):
way an exciting and maybe progressive conversation.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I also found it quite interesting because most of the
interviews you hear with Megan, or the ones that she's
presenting herself on, are very fluffy. I don't think that
Emma Greed asked about the royal family, didn't talk about
Prince Harry. It was about business, particularly the first half
of it, and I actually found it quite interesting because
it was the first time i'd heard Meghan talk about
why the business name change, why all the stop starts.
(17:39):
And she made the point that a lot of businesses
will go through all that kind of stuff but behind
the scenes. But she can't go through anything behind the
scenes because there is no greater magnifying glass on anyone
than there is on Megan. So when she's like, oh,
and then Netflix came with an offer and we thought
maybe it would be better to do it like that,
so we paused things and we did that. I'm like, well, yeah,
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I kind of I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And I find Emma really interesting, Like I couldn't be
less like her. I don't want to be anything like her,
but as a kind of version of female success in
this moment, she's really interesting and quite refreshing.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
And me, you've talked about this, how when you're in
a position of you know, running a business, there's this
expectation that you'll be sort of charitable and dole out
free advice, right, And there's this idea about mentorship and
may can we get a coffee on Tuesday?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
And we've also got to be a mother because people
are very uncomfortable about women in business. So the way
that they're often attacked is either that they're bad mothers,
or they're not caring enough about, you know, their teams,
or sometimes they're difficult or assertive.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
But the idea is that you will mentor other young
women because that is consistent with our feminine understanding of women.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
And I thought with them, agreed. I thought this is
smart because people expect you to dole out free advice.
Monetize it, like if you're going to sit there and
give out business advice that you've spent your whole career acquiring.
There were, you know, fifty ads that played during that podcast.
She got paid good money to give out.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You also spoke a lot about women not wanting to
talk about money, and she likes to talk about money
because obviously money is a very big motivator for her.
And I've heard her talk about how, you know, the
fat she owns, this big Malibu beach house gives her
exceptional pleasure, which is something that you don't hear particularly
women saying, and that's her vibe. That's what she does.
(19:31):
But she does have a fund where she does give
money to people of color starting business in America. She
is on the Obama Foundation, so she does tick all
those boxes too. But she's very This is the bit
that I'm a bit uncomfortable with this. There's a lot
of people saying that this new version of the girl Boss,
girl Boss is dead, this kind of much more boss
bitch version. And I know that phrases Yucky is very trumpy,
(19:55):
it's trump coded, it's very like eighties greed is good.
The powersuit the heels like and I can see that too,
and the emm agreed of the world make an absolute
point of being completely apolitical, being completely we are across
the aisle like. It's interesting in terms of what it
says about where we're at.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
There's a bit of modeling in terms of I suppose
being the male CEO and if you can't beat them,
join them.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
In a moment. I want to tell you about the
conversation I had with my therapist this week. I'm sure
everyone's going to be very excited. Maybe I need to
talk to about girl Blessing. So last week I had
a conversation with my therapist. I haven't spoken to her
for a while. Fun fact, she's also Jesse's therapists.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
On my therapist, I feel like that's a dilemma my
mother in law style my therapist.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Could you get anymore? Could you get any more?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And meshed makes it hard when I want to talk
about Jesse or when she wants to bitch about me.
I don't know how she balances that. But she's actually
a performance psychologist, so she works with a lot of
actors and performers and podcasters and anyone who has to
sort of have a public face to what they do.
And one of the things that we were talking about
(21:06):
is anxiety. And I have anxiety. I've been medicated for
it for a long time, but that feeling of stress
or tension or even nerves. I was telling her how
I've kind of lost my mojo a bit with podcasting,
and how I've felt like a bit nervous sometimes behind
the microphone, and things that I haven't experienced for a
(21:27):
long time. She gave me two really great tricks for
when you're feeling anxious or nervous or.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Stressed, which appear in everyone's life if you're doing a
meeting or if you're putting your hand up or.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Having to give a speech, or having to go and
have a conversation with your boss or whatever it is.
So both of them are things that affect your body
without you even realizing it. And one is about breathing
and one is about stretching. And that might seem really,
really boring because I know there's lots of box breathing
techniques and all these different techniques, and she said, the
only technique that she's ever been able to retain is
(22:01):
this particular one. She basically said, the principle behind this,
biochemically in your body is the same. We have two
different nervous systems going. The first is the parasympathetic nervous system,
which is about rest and digest and that's activated when
we exhale or when we stretch, because when you think
(22:22):
about it, you can't be in fight or flight mode,
which is our sympathetic nervous system, which gets us ready
to act or do something or face a challenge when
you are stretching, when your muscles are stretched out, or
when you're breathing out. So when you breathe in, that
activates our sympathetic nervous system, which is fight or flight.
(22:43):
And when you breathe out. That's why when you nervous
start breathing.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Faster and quite shallow and you start going.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
So when you breathe out, you've got to breathe out.
You try to make a sound like this.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
It's like ASMR, except I hate it.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Okay, sorry, you can make it a bit quiet. You
don't have to make a sound. But the idea is
that you breathe out until like there's literally nothing left
that you're so squished, and then your lungs are a vacuum,
so you don't need to even breathe in. You just
release it fills up, You'll fill up a little bit,
and then you do it again, so you really focus
on the exhale. Now, you can do this while you're driving.
You can do this in a meeting. You don't have
to make the sound, but if you're alone that helps.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
You can do it on stage.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
You can do it on stage. You can do it
right before you go on stage. Right. So that's the
first one. The second one is this idea of stretching,
because it's the same when your shoulders are up and
your tents, that means your sympathetic nervous system is activated.
You are in fight or flight and you're ready to
respond to challenges and stress. So what that does is
it releases cortisol and adrenaline. Same when you're inhaling a
(23:53):
lot to try and calm themselves down, people will often
take a deep breath, but it's actually the opposite that
you should be doing. Should be doing a big exhale.
So what's a stretch that you should be any stretch like,
there's not a special stretch, just anything. When your muscles
are stretched out, your body knows that your muscles are.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Stretched out, You're saying I'm safe.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
You're saying I'm safe. You're saying I can't be about
to run or fight because I'm stretching right. So it's
one of those tricks that circumvents all the business in
your brain and just gives a signal straight to your body.
And I've been using it this week. I wanted to
make sure it worked before I shared it with everyone,
and it really does.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
The breathing thing. If I can find a minute, because
I find that in the car is often the only
kind of alone time I get. If I can take
a minute before I get out and just do the
breathing thing, let's change my life. Makes me think so
much clearer. I remember being told you as well. Yeah,
and I've been told that my big fear is going blank.
We've talked about about this, whether it's on stage or whatever. Basically,
you won't go blank if you're breathing properly. It's like,
(24:55):
if you are properly doing that. When I've gone blank before,
it's because I've stopped breathing and it literally oxygen supply
cuts off and then your brain just goes book and
you can't concentrate. So that's been my one thing, and
I think it's just self fulfilling. It's like I tell myself, Oh,
when I'm breathing, okay, I'm fine, and then I am.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
So let us try these two things if you're stressed
or nervous or feeling anxious in the moment, and let
us know how you.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Go after the break. The debate topic that had parents
very angrily calling the school, We're going to tell you
more about that story you might have missed in a moment.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
There was a story you might have missed last week
that I have been busting to talk to you both about. Right,
it's very divisive and I feel like we're not going
to all agree. Here's what happened. Year nine, students in
South Australia were given a debate topic. Did either of
you do debating at school? No, Holly, you would have
been greater.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I didn't go to the kind of school where you
got to do things right.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
In Australia, all the schools do like they offer it,
but only the uncle kids do it, which is why
I loved it. That's how I spent my Friday nights
doing my debating.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
How about you, may I did a lot of debating,
but not in the formal sense. So I'm a part of.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
A debate with your mom.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, yeah, oh, I did a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I did a lot of debating why I should be
allowed to stay out later stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Yes, well, I did debating, and there's three speakers and
it's very kind of formal anyway. The way it works
is that there's a topic and there's an affirmative team
and a negative team. You don't get to choose.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
I know how debating work.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
No, no, but not everybody.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Not everyone. Yeah, okay, okay, look at you debating. You're
getting angry exactly. Come on, take a deep debating. But
I know what a debate means.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I'm sorry, okay, I stretching.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
The debate topic was that the tradwife movement is good
for women, right, so one team is going to be
given affirmative one.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
I know this is a little bit to eat me up,
but so the way it works, a statement like the tradwife,
and then three of you have to argue, yes, the
tradewrite movement is good for women, and three of you
have to argue, no, the tradwife movement is bad for women.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And you don't get to choose. You don't get that
would annoy people a great deal.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
It would How do the kids that are debating this
and are they boys or girls or mixed?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Year nine so I'm going to say fifteen, fourteen, fifteen
and mixed.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Then came the backlash, so some on social media said
this would force women to argue for their own subjugation.
Ather called the not for profit the organization that does it.
Not for profit called them on the phone, yelled at
them and said this is ridiculous. This is sexist, which
doesn't feel in the spirit of debating. But anyway, debating
South Australia got a shock. They came out and said
(27:55):
that they were using the word tradwife as interchangeable with
a stay at home mother.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, that's their first mistake because anyone who is literate
in the world of tradwives, and I am way too
literate in the word of they are not the same thing.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Explain the difference.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
A state at home mother, which is not a popular
term now anyway, is anyone whose main job is looking
after their kids. Tradwives are literally people whose identity is
very much tied up with a very traditional version of
homemaking that usually also involves making all your food from scratches,
showing any process food, maybe even conventional education a certain way.
(28:34):
Also that part of the tradwife thing, rightly or wrongly,
is that you are subjugated to your husband. The husband
is the head of the house. There is not a
tradwife model where the husband is not the head of
the house. So you also have to have a husband.
So a stay at home mum could be any kind
of family model, any kind of thing. A tradwife is
a very specific.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Thing, And you're right. I was being facetious about Megan,
because tradwives, the idea is you right, they don't earn money.
So it's all about very traditional gender roles, and whether
they do that on the internet or not, it's about
traditional gender roles.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
So the Debating Association actually wrote to schools and said
what we meant was a traditional wife. It is not
about submission to a man inside the home. It's about
someone who stays at home and looks up to kids.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Maya, they feel like a baby wandering into a wood,
like I didn't know that I was going to tread
on a big spike and a bet money. It's like, guys,
I'm talking about trad wife with people getting up, I
will say those they were driving over the spikes.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
About the process of debating, is that your first speaker
one of the first things you do, because there's a
whole there's a whole strategy, there's a whole process. First
thing you gotta do. Definition, you have to get up.
And the worst kind of debates are what we call
definitional debates. And that's when one team defines it as
one thing and the other defines it as something else.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Why is that a bad debate because you're not because.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
You're not arguing the same thing. And often and we
call it. I used to adjudicating for debating as well,
we end up calling it. And even if debate, and
what we do is we say, even if you define
trad wife as blah, I'm going to start arguing on
your terms because otherwise, very unsatisfying, unproductive debate. If we're
just arguing about definitions, which I would say, shouldn't we
(30:19):
all be going back there because the definitional debate. I
don't think some people branding themselves as tradwife mean the
same thing as these tradewives.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Like.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Sitting down and debating the definition of tradwife is an interesting,
important process, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah it is. But the point here, or at least
as far as I see it, is that debating tradwives
is incredibly valid, right they are, just as we just
talked about this sort of girl boss, boss bitch archetype
that seems to be looming at the minute. Tradwife is
definitely another There is a lot of content out there
about that. It is very much an aspirational model of
womanhood that's out there. It is not the same as
(30:54):
I don't have a paying job at the minute and
I'm looking after kids. And the thing is is I
think they thought it was, but it's not. And so
I know that's a definitional debate, but that was their
first mistake.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Maya, would you call the school and make a law comment.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
It was funny because when you first told us about
this this morning in the planning meeting, I was like, Oh,
that's ridiculous. That's just what a debate is. Sometimes you
have to argue things you don't it. Yeah, argue for
things that you don't agree with. That's the whole point.
And that's the skill of being a debater, that you
have to be able to debate something regardless of what
you personally believe. But then I read a little bit more.
(31:26):
I read some commentary from Rebecca Sparrow who published an
email on her Facebook page. She's like a writes a
lot about teen girls and school and speaks in schools
about friendship and other things. And this email from someone
who was objecting to it basically said, at a time
when there is the Andrew Tait of it all, and
there are some pretty controversial, troubling ideas we saw in adolescence.
(31:50):
If you look at that as the backdrop here, teachers, schools, parents,
girls and boys are all having a lot of trouble
working with these issues, right about girls and boys. So
to overlay that on it, it almost feels like during
the time of the marriage equality debate, having a debate
(32:12):
about whether same sex marriage should be allowed or whether
same sex marriage is bad for the world, it feels very,
very fraught in a way that is kind of beyond
an action.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
That's such an interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Thing, isn't that the point of debating though, to be
fraud I mean, we would debate things about like lowering
the voting age or whatever, but then climate change or
smoking or vegetarianism. In order to know what you think
about something, and this is a philosophical principle, you need
to be able to put words around the other side.
Speaker 6 (32:45):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
And let's imagine too, that you have a fifteen or
a sixteen year old boy who is like our boy
from adolescence, right, and he has those traditional ideas. What
if he gets the negative and that boy has to
stand up and argue that being a tried wife isn't
good for women, And that's an exercise for him to
consider the other side, and they have to listen to it.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Except he won't. This is what we're learning that people
tend to screen out things they don't agree with and
into things they do agree with.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Well, that's what they do on social media. But the
whole point of a debate is that you actually put
everything on the table and the rules of a debate,
which don't exist on bloody TikTok and on most podcasts
I listen to is that you go, Okay, these are
my arguments, this is my evidence. I'm going to refute
what you said, and I'm not going to bring up
anything personal. I'm going to just talk about the facts
(33:32):
and you come to a conclusion. And I think that
often some middle ground can be found.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So I respect that, and I entirely agree that any
strongly held opinion that you hold, being literate in the
opposition to it is essential, right, I one hundred percent agree,
and I think it's one of the things that we've
lost in public debate. Certainly not the first person say that. However,
I also very much can see what me is saying,
(33:56):
because one of the things that's always troubled me about
debates is that just because you can mount a good
argument doesn't make you right, you know what I mean, Like,
there is no argument in the world that would convey
me of some things just because you are really smart
and really clever and you've cherry picked the right facts
and you've made it laugh. No, no, it doesn't mean
(34:18):
you don't debate it. But the problem with presenting debating
as a competition, where always one size wins and one
side loses is I don't think that proves that the
argument was wrong. So I could never just because of
my own personal prejudices. Probably I would love to be
in a debate about trad wives, but there isn't actually
(34:39):
an argument in the world that would make me think
that it was a wonderful thing for my daughter to
be a tradwife.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
What I mean Jesse playing it out. So the side
that has to argue that trad wives make the world
better and that subjugating women and traditional gender roles are
better for the world, they're just better debaters and they
win exactly. So what message And I know what you're saying,
And again I see both sides, which is why I'm
probably a terrible debater. What message does that send? Because
(35:07):
you're right, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's true. But
when you're talking about kids.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And the boys at school, they're saying to the girls
at school like, tidwives are great, we want that debate.
You guys don't know what you're talking about. Like, I
can see why I'm not saying they shouldn't debate. I
don't think anything should be off the table as such,
but I can see why a school setting with boys
and girls of that age, where as me has already
pointed out, relations are quite fraught, right, don't really want
(35:34):
to bring that into their world. I can understand that,
even though it's really interesting, because I can see that philosophically,
losing the art of debating is a terrible thing. But
I also think that presenting it as a purely competitive
sport almost and dealing with really big life and death
cultural issues is not great for a bunch of fourteen
(35:57):
year olds to live on TikTok.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
I don't think it is life or death cultural. I
think that there are a lot of things that are
currently in the zeitgeist that I would say that is
not for a unite debate, like absolutely, but this one.
If we assume that this is in their world anyway,
that they have to define it, They have to grapple
with it, they have to deal with the facts, they
(36:19):
have to argue whichever way they want to say. It's
good for women or it's bad for women. When someone
wins a debate, it is not because the adjudicator thinks
they were right. It's because of how they fashion the argument.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, exactly so, but it will be interpreted as that
they were right.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
I think that you want to keep these kids engaged
in these topics, right, and a lot of them can
be quite boring and stale, and so I just think
that to me, it is more about the process of
the debate, and I think that both sides have lost
that entirely. And it might be controversial and it might
make for some awkward moments, but at least they are
(36:56):
going with like principled argumentation that isn't you're a girl
and you belong in the kitchen.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
But civil discourse trying to model to kids.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
And I do agree with all of that, and I
think I misspoke before when I said life or death issue,
because you're right, this isn't necessarily But I think the
reason why it takes me there is because it troubles
me a lot that in the world of a fourteen
fifteen year old girl, and obviously I have skin in
this game, there is still some kind of live debate
(37:26):
out there about whether or not she should be allowed
to have autonomy over her choices, and whether or not
she makes money, and whether or not her gender should
define what she does seem upsets me a lot. So
that's probably why I get Mamura and the thing is
is in theory in a lovely theoretical sense. It's great
to debate that, but in the rough and tumble of
(37:49):
a high school, in lots of ways, I agree with you, Jesse,
but I think that the parents who were calling and
the people who were upset, I also can see why
because I don't think I would love it if my
daughter was coming home and saying, you know, we were
on the women should be able to live however they
want to live side, and we lost and now we'll
be you know what I mean? Like I just yes, tricking.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
It's one to really chew over out louders. I'm fascinated
to know what you think. I keep flicking around and around.
You can tell who's the debate here because Holly and
I like but on the other hand, But on the
other hand, we're a very gray area.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Who remembers a conversation we had a couple of weeks
ago about Etsy Witches.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
I do I don't think this one over here was.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
That I wasn't here, but I listened to it was funny.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Quick refresher. Apparently, despite cost of living pressures, et cetera,
quite a lot of people are paying money for witches
on Etsy to solve their problems. Highly reviewed lift curses,
cast attraction spells, etc.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
I also love that it's on Etsy. It's not on
air Tasker. No, it's not even on Google. It's on Etsy,
which is like where you go to buy craft home
making crafts.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
So Etsy Witch is now another another thing we can
choose from the menu of life. Problem is you can't
always control your witch. Please listen to this message from
a young man called Stephen Stetks on TikTok about a
district pressing development in which.
Speaker 6 (39:11):
World I think I'm going to cry. My Etsy witch
has died. I have no one to talk to about this,
but I hired this lady from etsay to remove this
ancient generational curse anyway, and she said it would take
about three weeks to kick him. It's been about a month,
so I've not heard anything. So I messaged her the
(39:32):
other day just to say, hey, when is a spell complete?
When can I expect to receive this slow of energy?
And her daughter just messaged me back tonight to say
her mum had died, which is so sad. But at
the same time, does anyone know if this means this
spell is still active. Like I'm not sure if the
(39:54):
spell dies with the witch or what happens, and I
don't want to ask.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I think the spell is in trine. I think she's
cast hopefully she cast it before she died, and very sad.
We're not laughing about the fact that she died.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Very sad.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
It's never happy when summer dies. But I think it's
out there. I think it just maybe has to settle.
I don't know if she has to close it. What
the hell do I know?
Speaker 3 (40:18):
My auntsy witch died is the most uniquely twenty twenty
five sentence.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
I imagine saying that to your grandmother.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I know, I know, And also I just feel like
Stephen and he has a lovely Scottish accent. But it's
like Stephen, this was an inside problem.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Tell everybody no, I think it's a public service because
now everyone has to consider that when they're engaging with
an Etsy.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Wait, you think you can ask for your money back?
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (40:42):
What?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
No?
Speaker 3 (40:44):
No, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
From this stage, this is the kind of etiquette we
need to here.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
When can you get a refund from your auntsy?
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Wear out loudest, That is all we have time for today?
Are massive thank you to all of you for listening
to our show, and our wonderful team for putting this
show together. I would also like to remind you that
if you're watching us and you can notice how glorious
our backdrop is.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Or you've seen us in social and you've seen.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Us on socials, our student a stale by furniture from
Fenton and Fenton and you can find out more about
that at Fenton and Fenton dot com dot.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
We'll be back in your ears tomorrow, but first, if.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
You're looking for something else to listen to. On yesterday's
subscriber episode, Holly m and I shared the books that
changed our lives? May or do you have anything you
want to add?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
I was new vitecause I can't read.
Speaker 3 (41:30):
No exactly right exactly, So if you're looking for something
to read right now, or if it started this fantastic
conversation the mum Mind Facebook group, we should share some
of them on Instagram, but go to the Outlouders Facebook
group and there is a thread I was trawling through
last night of everyone sharing the book that changed their life,
and it's it's lovely. That's what you need sometimes, so
they are Jane Austen no, no, no, A lot of
(41:51):
Marcus Zuzak. They're great recommendations. A link, as always, will
be in the show notes. Bye bye bye.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Shout out to any mum and Mia subscribers listening. If
you love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There is a think in the episode
description
Speaker 2 (42:21):
M
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