June 8, 2025 • 28 mins
Do you ever struggle to say "no" and set boundaries with the people you love?
In this episode of But Are You Happy, Dr. Anastasia Hronis shares a practical, step-by-step guide to setting healthy boundaries without damaging your relationships and tells you exactly what to say.
If you or someone you know needs support, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Both services are available 24/7 for free, confidential mental health support.
Listen to more from the new season of But Are You Happy? here
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
So you're listening to Amma Mea podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
QUICKI Friends Taylor dropping into your feed today for a
listening recommendation.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
But are You Happy is back.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
For another season, ready to tackle all your mental health
questions and qualms. This time, hosts as Shani Dante and
psychologist doctor Anastasia Harnus are here to help fit out
your mental health toolkits with everything we need to face
life's trials and tribulations. Like in the latest episode, Anastasia
teaches us how to do maybe one of the hardest
(00:46):
things ever, and that is saying no, especially to the
people that we love.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Take a listen. We think you'll like this one.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Yeah, that's sounds so fun.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I can't come though, because I have a think tomorrow.
What you have a thing tomorrow?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
But think? What are you doing? Well? I'm just busy tomorrow,
Like I just enblive no, Like we can all hang out,
Like we'll just pick you up at E and we
can all hang out. And I don't want to hang
out with you tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
We don't want to fucking hear out with you tomorrow. Well,
why don't you just see you?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I was busy.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
You just keep asking fucking questions.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It's cold boundaries, stop making mean for those those stress
or Mama Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante, welcome to
But are you happy? Because doom scrolling is its self reflection?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
And I'm doctor Anastasia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Today, we are going to tackle
one of the most common challenges that so many of
my clients are facing. How to say no, especially to
the people we love.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Well. This is a big one that this is something
I see in myself and so many of my friends too,
especially women. Are we going to learn how to say
no with our full body by the end of this
episode one hundred percent? This is actually one of my
favorite things to teach people. Let's get stuck in, okay, Anastasia.
(02:11):
We hear this idea of toxic relationship a lot, But
how do we actually know if we have an unhealthy
dynamic with someone?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, so toxic isn't a clinical definition, right The or
a toxic gets thrown around a lot, for sure, But
I like to use the term sort of an unhealthy
dynamic or an unhealthy relationship. And this can look like
so many different things. Again, there isn't like a one
size fits all answer with this. It can present in
so many different ways. But to give you a couple
of examples as to what an unhealthy dynamic might look like,
(02:44):
it might look like a relationship where there's an imbalance
of power. So one person doesn't necessarily feel like their
voice is heard, like they have the capacity in the
relationship to say no, to speak their mind, to voice
their opinion. There's some sort of imbalance in the relationship
when it comes to power dynamics. It might be that
(03:07):
a person feels like they can't fully be themselves, their
authentic self, like they have to hide parts of their
identity or keep parts of themselves hidden from the other person.
So it's this idea of not being fully accepted for
who we are by our partner or by someone in
a relationship. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that a person
(03:27):
has to like all of us, because being accepted is
different to being liked. You know, I might not like
every part of someone, but I can accept them for
who they are. And I guess again, coming back to
this idea of I need to feel like I can
be myself and I can have a voice. If that
isn't there, then we're really looking at an unhealthy dynamic
(03:49):
in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Essentially, what I'm hearing is at the bottom of it.
If the relationship doesn't have those key foundations of trust
and safety, a lot of things can happen, which I
know we'll dive into a little bit later.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Absolutely, and I love that you use the words trust
and safety because when we think about what a healthy
relationship looks like, or a healthy dynamic looks like on
the flip side, it absolutely is one where we feel
like we have that trust and that security in the
relationship with someone. And the reality is we all have
(04:21):
what we refer to in the psychology world as core
emotional needs. So we all have core physical needs, right
we all need water and food and shelter and protection
from the elements, etc. But we all also have core
emotional needs. So these are things like we all have
the need for secure attachment with other people. We need
(04:45):
to feel safe and securely connected to other people in
our life. We all have the need for being able
to express ourselves emotionally and to have that heard and validated.
By other people, and we all have the need for autonomy,
for competence, for independence, to have a sense of self,
(05:07):
to know who I am in the world and feel
I can express that freely.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
And I really it's kind of extending on to expressing
that freely. I think it's really interesting because when we
think of unhealthy relationships and healthy relating, I feel like
communication is really important. And the reality is in a
healthy relationship you are going to come up against conflict
and disagreements and everything like that. But I think it's
(05:32):
around how do you move through that process?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Absolutely, absolutely, and I think it's important at this point
as well to differentiate between things that are never okay
in a relationship versus dynamics that maybe don't suit us personally.
So we never want to be in a relationship where
we're consistently criticized, put down, called names by our partner
(05:57):
or by a friend, or by anyone we're in some
sort of friendship or relationship with. You know, there are
certainly some no goes that we don't want to accept.
But then there's also the other side where the way
I show up in the world might just be very
fundamentally different to how someone else shows up in the world,
and that creates a lot of friction and tension and conflict.
And it doesn't mean anyone's doing anything wrong. It just
(06:20):
means that the dynamic doesn't work as seamlessly as we
might like it to.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So obviously, for our purposes today, let's drill down on
how to say no, specifically to people we are actually
in some sort of relationship with. You know that can
be family, partners and friends.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah. Absolutely. I have a great example that comes to
mind of someone I worked with. We'll call her Rebecca,
and she found herself in a really challenging dynamic with
her mum. The kind of mother daughter relationship is one
that I and then I hear about a fair bit.
I'm not gonna lie in the therapy room where there
are certain expectations sometimes placed on a daughter to show
(07:01):
up in certain ways, whether that be how she kind
of presents herself in the world. So this person I
worked with, Rebecca, had a lot of expectations from mom
as to how she should look, what she should wear,
how she should interact with other people, but also how
she should contribute as an adult to the family, how
she should help out, how she should help take family
members to doctor's appointments and help them with the groceries
(07:23):
and the shopping, and you know, be available for all
the family lunches and dinners. So there was just a
lot of expectations placed on her and she really struggled
to figure out how to maintain her own independence and
identity and life whilst also keeping that relationship with her mum,
because at the end of the day, it's not like
(07:43):
she wanted to cut mum off. She wanted a happy,
healthy relationship with her, but just struggle to navigate that.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Okay, so there's a lot of Rebecca's tuning in today.
Why is it that we're so inclined to say yes?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
This is a great question because again it comes back
to biology and what we're hardwired. I know, last week
we were talking about emotions and how those are sort
of biologically ingrained dinner us. This desire to say yes
or the desire to not say no is biologically ingrained
in us. And I'll explain why from an evolutionary perspective.
(08:22):
If we think back to the caveman days, it was
really important for us to be part of the pack
for the survival of ourselves and survival of the species.
We needed to be part of the broader group, and
if we weren't, if we were isolated, we were more
vulnerable to threats, would be more likely to be eaten
by a tiger or a lion, or we'd be more
(08:43):
vulnerable in life and it would be harder to survive.
So we have this ingrained sense of wanting to do
what we need to do to stay connected with others. Nowadays,
fast forward, how many hundreds and thousands of years, we
can survive pretty easily without that desire and ingrained need
(09:03):
to be so connected to other people. Right on a
physical level, we can survive. But because it is so
primal that part of us that wants to stay connected,
we find it quite hard to say no, and we
find that we are more inclined to say yes sometimes
when we actually do mean no.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
It's interesting when you say that, because I'm thinking about
how there's so many times where I actually want to
say no, but I say yes. But then in my body,
I'm actually feeling all these different sensations, Like I know
you're talking about the biology of things, is what's going
on in the body, Like is the actual physical symptoms.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Exactly in what you describe where we say yes, but
we actually mean no. We feel that tension, right, And
again I come back to emotions are sources of data
and information. If we're feeling that tension in the gut,
in our body somewhere, I would say to listeners, tune
into that feeling because it's telling you something. It's giving
(10:00):
you some sort of message that there's this conflict internally
happening within you.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So what is the impact of when we say yes
too much?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
It often means that we end up over committing. So
we might be saying yes to too many things and
then we're over committed. But the downside of that is
that maybe we don't end up having time for the
things that actually we really want to do, the things
that align with our values and that are important to
us in our life. So for everything we say yes to,
(10:31):
we essentially sacrifice something else. We only have so much
time in the day and so much kind of energy
that we have to work with through the week. So
by saying yes to certain things, we're also saying no
to others. And the things we say no to might
actually be quite important to us.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
And I think it's really great that you're touching on
values again, because I know we spoke about that last
week and the importance of values and how it's needed
in decision making, but also how it's really relevant in
relationships as well, and how we communicate absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And the other downside of saying yes too often to
things that maybe we don't really want to or don't
feel inclined to, is that over time, we can inadvertently
send ourselves a message that our needs are not important,
that my needs are not valuable or as important as others.
And it's actually a way in which I somehow lose
(11:25):
respect for myself. If I'm not able to communicate to
someone else the know or communicate to someone else what's
important to me and what I need time for, I'm
actually disrespecting myself in the process.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
It also kind of feels like self betrayal too.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Hmmm. Yes, the idea of self betrayal is a really
big one, and I think a really important one for
us to unpack, because it really is this notion that
we don't give ourselves the time and the respect to
fully explore what's important to us and communicate that to others, right,
because there's something to be said for we need to
(12:02):
show and teach others how we want to be treated.
So if we show up in a relationship where we're
constantly saying yes to everything, unless we actually tell that
person no, sometimes they're not going to know that we're
saying yes but meaning no, right, So they're just going
to continue treating us and acting in the way that
(12:22):
they are in the relationship because they don't know any different.
There really is an onus on us to be able
to communicate with others how we want to be treated,
how we want to fit in terms of a dynamic
in a relationship, and what we want from others.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And it kind of feels like with like the flip
side of self betrayal is taking itsself responsibility, Like it
is our responsibility at the end of the day to
be able to communicate that. And I'm interested too, because
I know, Rebecca, you know that's a mother daughter dynamic.
Like have you seen other kinds of relationships where these
kind of behaviors are playing out?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Absolutely, So I use the mother daughter dynamic as a
as a common one, but we see it play out
amongst friends. You know, we might have a friend who's
constantly asking something from us. Maybe it feel a bit
like a one way friendship where the one who's constantly
trying to reach out and organize things with them or
they're constantly asking us for things. We see this in friendships,
we see it in sibling dynamics, we see it in
(13:21):
romantic relationships. It can really play out in any kind
of relationship where there's some degree of intimacy, and when
I say intimacy, I mean emotional intimacy. Self sacrificing is
also a really important part of this conversation because we
might find ourselves in situations where we genuinely feel like
other people's needs are more important than ours. This is
(13:44):
what self sacrificing comes down to, This idea that I
need to give and give to others in order to
feel like I'm a good person. And if I don't
do that, then I feel really bad and guilty about
who I am in relationships.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Oh gosh, I can definitely speak to self sacrifice, and
I can just get out my scroll of all the
times I've done it, and I definitely know that this
is so common among so many women, and I know
for me. I think for me, I'm naturally someone that
does want to put my needs in the backseat and
be of service to, you know, the people that I
love most. And I remember recently I was going through
(14:18):
a really hard time emotionally and I just had to
try and take care of myself. But I remember getting
a miscall from one of my good friends who I
know is really struggling as well. And it was this
moment because I had a friend of mine who was
really honest with me recently. She said, Shany, you need
to actually put yourself first and not keep sacrificing yourself.
(14:39):
And that was hard to hear. But also I really
trust her wisdom. So I just remember in that moment
when I saw that misscall from a friend, I just
sent her a message and I just said, hey, look
I can't chat right now. I'm really in it. Maybe
just send me a voice message for now and I'll
give you a call back later. And that was really hard,
because it is it is a skill, you know, especially
(14:59):
when you've been so programmed to go the other way.
It takes time.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
But I want to pick up on something you said. Yeah,
because you made this comment about putting yourself first, right,
and we hear this all the time. We've got to
put ourselves first, you know, don't just put other people's
needs first, put yourself first, And I almost want to
reframe that. And I think your example is a great one,
because did you put yourself first or did you put
yourself as equal to the other person? Like, from what
(15:25):
I hear you're describing, you respected yourself and what you needed,
and you respected what the other person was wanting from you,
what your friend was wanting, which was to have some
degree of communication and connection. So I don't know that
you like necessarily put yourself first, And I feel like
people can rebel against that. It feels like a bit
of a selfish thing to do, but we can certainly
put ourselves as equal.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, I actually never heard it like that before. Now
that you've said it, I'm like, oh, that's going to
stick with me because it is a bit of a
reframe there. And also it's a bit like when you're
on the aeroplane. It talks about you can put your
oxygen mask on first. We hear it all the time,
put your own oxygen mask before you put someone else's.
But also what you're communicating is, hey, I need to
have this face for me so then I can be
(16:08):
better and show up in the world and be a
better friend to you. After the shortbreak, doctor Anastasia is
going to teach you exactly how does they know to
loved ones in a healthy way? Stay with us, atas Asia,
how did you teach Rebecca how to reset that dynamic
(16:29):
with her mom? And how do we learn how to
do this with the relationships in our life without burning
any bridges.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
The first thing I taught Rebecca, and the first thing
I would recommend to all our listeners who want to
set some boundaries is learn how to not give an
answer in the moment. So when someone makes a request
from us, it's a really important skill for us to
be able to kind of say I need to get
back to you, or I can't give you an answer
(16:57):
right now. And in the case of Rebecca, she often
felt a lot of pressure and obligations from her mom,
so she really did want to maintain that relationship. It
was really important for her to have a close relationship
with her mom. She felt that pressure in the moment
to just sort of say, yes, Okay, I'll be at
that event, I'll be at the family lunch, I'll take
you to the shops on the weekend. You know, yes,
(17:17):
I'll do all these things. So The first thing we
actually practiced was how to say, I'll have to check.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
And get back to you, okay, I need you to
give us a script. How do we exactly say no.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yes okay? So first up, when we get the request,
we want to try and say I'll have to get
back to you right. And so this might sound something like, firstly,
nurturing the relationship. Always nurture the relationship. If it's an
important one to you, let the person know that. So
if Rebecca's mum is asking her to have lunch on
(17:51):
the weekend with you know, mum and the extended family,
and Rebecca's really not quite sure if she wants to
do that, when Mum calls and asks, Rebecca could say
something like, look, Mom, this sounds really lovely. I love
spending time with the family. I'm just not sure if
right now I'm going to be able to commit to
that for this weekend end. I'm going to need to
just check a few things and get back to you.
(18:12):
But thanks for asking, and I'll let you know right. So,
I want to step away from this idea of us
being like it's a no, like it's a hard no
to you know, no is a complete sentence yes, no
is a complete sentence, but it can come across more
beneficial to the relationship if we can sort of pad
that with nurturing the relationship. So first delay giving a response,
(18:34):
then I would recommend that, you know, at some point
Rebecca gives Mam a call back or text her back
in some way, again nurture the relationship. Hey, mom, I
know you asked me to join you guys for lunch
on the weekend, and it sounds like you're going to
have a really lovely time. I would have liked to
be there, but unfortunately I'm just not going to be
(18:54):
able to make it this weekend. I really appreciate you
reaching out and you know, offering for me to come,
but it's just not going to work with my schedule.
I'm really sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
So it's really interesting because these are really great. But
I'm also thinking about in the first step, moms, if
you get backlash straight away and the like I mean
with Rebecca's mom, I'm just saying, hypothetically, why's of Rebecca's
mom felt really offended. She's like, how what do you
mean you need to go away? Like, because she's noticing
a difference in the dynamic, right, So it can bring
(19:26):
up a lot for other people, like how do you
handle that?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I talk about this notion or technique of being a
bit of a broken record, right, because these are the
instances where we end up saying yes when we actually
meant no, when we feel the pressure, when we feel
like someone's guilt tripping us to say yes to something
when we really don't want to. So I talk about
this idea of being a broken record, and we can
do this really nicely, but it's literally just repeating ourselves
(19:53):
again and again. So it might be something like, I
hear your mom, I know you really wanted me to come. Unfortunately,
I'm just not going to be able to make it.
I get it, Mom, I know you would have really
liked me there. Unfortunately it's just not going to happen
this weekend. Yeah mom, I know, but unfortunately I'm just
not going to be able to make it. So really,
just sticking to your guns and very kindly just repeating
(20:13):
the same thing over and over.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I really love that because the way that you're saying
it is kind of what you're saying around nurturing the relationship,
and you're validating Rebecca's bum's experience where she might feel hurt.
So it's like, how do you do both? Which I
really love? So tell us what the next step is?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yes, okay, So the final step is the negotiation, right,
And this doesn't have to be the final step, right, No,
I can't come to lunch might be the final step.
But if the relationship is important to us and we
want to nurture it and we don't want to burn
those bridges, it might be for Rebecca or for the
person in Rebecca's shoes to think about what an alternative
(20:53):
might be that actually suits her needs. So maybe Rebecca
comes up with another option where she says, you know, look,
unfortunately I'm not going to make family lunch this weekend,
but I'd really love to see you one day through
the week for dinner. Is there a night that you're free,
I'll cook some lasagna and bring it over, you know,
So come up some alternatives to be able to negotiate
if our goal is nurturing that relationship.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So do you think a lot of this is influenced
by society or culture?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Absolutely, we definitely see differences depending on whether people have
grown up in a family dynamic or a culture that's
more sort of individualistic versus collectivists. So what we see
is that in those more individualistic societies and cultures, there
is more of a focus on being able to say
(21:42):
no and putting the boundaries in place, and less of
a focus on repair in relationships. What we see that
collectivist societies and cultures do really well is that they
focus on maintaining and repairing dynamics. The reality is that
we are always going to be faced in our life
with situations where we have to say no to people,
(22:03):
where ruptures occur in a relationship. It's normal and it's natural,
and part of what we need to learn is how
to be able to do that and become okay with it.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So a lot of this is getting comfortable with disappointing
other people.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Right. Absolutely, we're all unique people with different ways of
thinking and being in the world, and that means that
we're going to face conflict in life and we're going
to disappoint people sometimes. That's just a part of it.
And if we're not used to saying no or asserting
our needs with other people, it's probably going to feel
(22:36):
pretty uncomfortable to start with. It's a new different experience
for us, so we might actually find ourselves feeling a
little bit anxious to do it. And if that's the case,
then I advise listeners go back to episode one and
have a listen to how to deal with anxiety and
worry if it comes about guilt tripping.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
So is that is that ab our thing?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Absolutely, we can definitely have the experience of other people
making us feel guilty. And what I want to highlight
here is there is a difference between us feeling guilt
and other people imposing guilt on us. Right, I'm going
to come back. You'll probably hear me say this time
and time again through our episodes that emotions serve a function,
(23:17):
they're important. So if I feel guilt, if I naturally
feel guilt, doesn't feel pleasant, but it's an important emotion
because it tells me that I've done something that goes
against my moral code and my moral compass. So guilt
gives us important information that we've done something that we
don't feel good about, so that we can not do
it again in the future and maybe try and make
(23:38):
some sort of repair and amend. That's very different to
us feeling guilty because someone else has said we should
or made it out as if we should be ashamed
of ourselves for the decision that we've made. So it's
really important in these situations for people to stop and
reflect on is this guilt my own or is it
(24:02):
guilt that someone else is putting on me? Bib bib bib.
I'm having a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Guys, it's time for BRB having a crisis. This is
your opportunity, listeners to get Anastasia's advice and guidance on
your dilemma, challenge or big live question. Today we're hearing
from Ruby.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
My partner's a slow riser and loves easing into the weekend.
I'm the opposite up early, ready to get things done,
and I get restless if the day feels like it's
slipping by. He always says, why do you have to
be in such a rush, But it's not about rushing,
it's just how I'm wired. On top of that, he
watches every football game all weekend. I'm not into it,
and sometimes it feels like I'm sidelined trying to fit
(24:55):
in my own plans. I want to support his interests,
but I also want space for my own. It's tough
finding a balance between spending time together but also feeling
fulfilled in myself on the weekends.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Oh Ruby, this is a tough one, but I think
you're not alone because I've heard a lot of people
talk about this idea of individual identity versus the relationship identity,
and how do I keep space for my own sense
of self and who I am in the world and
in the relationship while also building, developing, and nurturing the relationship,
(25:30):
which forms an identity of its own. What I would
encourage you to do is, maybe, as you can predict,
this involves having a conversation with your partner, but invite
him into the solution right when you talk to him,
share what your thoughts, feelings, and concerns are, and try
and do so using eye statements. I feel this. I
(25:51):
think that this tends to result in more open communication
and the other person doesn't feel as defensive if we
start statements with I. But what I also encourage you
to do is invite him into the solution right. Open
up the challenge that you're facing with him, and invite
(26:13):
him to help you find a solution. So this might
be something like saying, I really value our relationship and
I want us to both feel good in it. How
do you suggest we go about navigating this, so you're
bringing him in so it can be a collaborative approach, because,
as you've highlighted, that balance between individual identity and the
(26:34):
relationship can be a challenging one to get right. And
there's not one clear answer that's going to work every week.
It's probably going to be an ongoing conversation with an
ongoing solution.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Saying no is literally such a skill. Sounds so simple,
but really it's not an asagia. Can you give us
a recap of what we learned today?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Absolutely? First up, it's okay to say no. Second, we
can say no to other people while still maintaining kindness
and rest for the relationship. Third, if saying no feels
hard in the moment, try to opt for a not
right now or I have to get back to you. Lastly,
(27:21):
by saying no, we will have times where others are
disappointed or they feel let down. This is normal and
natural and a part of life. If you value the relationship,
think about what else you can do to contribute to
the relationship that still nurtures it while maintaining your boundary.
Next week, we're tackling a biggie. It's what I hear
(27:42):
about from so many people in my life, not just
my work. We're going to be discussing the quickest and
easiest way to get out of a life rush and
reset when we feel like everything sucks.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
If you have any burning questions, there's a few ways
to get in touch with us links in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal history. The
executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I'm a Shani Dante.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
And I'm doctor Anaesthetia Hornus. The names and stories of
clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
we have links for more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(28:44):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of But Are You Happy?
If you'd like to hear more from Ashani and Anastasia,
there's a link to follow along in our show notes,
and of course The Quickie is back to regular scheduled
programming in your feed at six am tomorrow
So you're listening to Amma Mea podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
QUICKI Friends Taylor dropping into your feed today for a
listening recommendation.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
But are You Happy is back.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
For another season, ready to tackle all your mental health
questions and qualms. This time, hosts as Shani Dante and
psychologist doctor Anastasia Harnus are here to help fit out
your mental health toolkits with everything we need to face
life's trials and tribulations. Like in the latest episode, Anastasia
teaches us how to do maybe one of the hardest
(00:46):
things ever, and that is saying no, especially to the
people that we love.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Take a listen. We think you'll like this one.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Yeah, that's sounds so fun.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I can't come though, because I have a think tomorrow.
What you have a thing tomorrow?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
But think? What are you doing? Well? I'm just busy tomorrow,
Like I just enblive no, Like we can all hang out,
Like we'll just pick you up at E and we
can all hang out. And I don't want to hang
out with you tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
We don't want to fucking hear out with you tomorrow. Well,
why don't you just see you?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I was busy.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
You just keep asking fucking questions.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It's cold boundaries, stop making mean for those those stress
or Mama Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante, welcome to
But are you happy? Because doom scrolling is its self reflection?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
And I'm doctor Anastasia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Today, we are going to tackle
one of the most common challenges that so many of
my clients are facing. How to say no, especially to
the people we love.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Well. This is a big one that this is something
I see in myself and so many of my friends too,
especially women. Are we going to learn how to say
no with our full body by the end of this
episode one hundred percent? This is actually one of my
favorite things to teach people. Let's get stuck in, okay, Anastasia.
(02:11):
We hear this idea of toxic relationship a lot, But
how do we actually know if we have an unhealthy
dynamic with someone?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, so toxic isn't a clinical definition, right The or
a toxic gets thrown around a lot, for sure, But
I like to use the term sort of an unhealthy
dynamic or an unhealthy relationship. And this can look like
so many different things. Again, there isn't like a one
size fits all answer with this. It can present in
so many different ways. But to give you a couple
of examples as to what an unhealthy dynamic might look like,
(02:44):
it might look like a relationship where there's an imbalance
of power. So one person doesn't necessarily feel like their
voice is heard, like they have the capacity in the
relationship to say no, to speak their mind, to voice
their opinion. There's some sort of imbalance in the relationship
when it comes to power dynamics. It might be that
(03:07):
a person feels like they can't fully be themselves, their
authentic self, like they have to hide parts of their
identity or keep parts of themselves hidden from the other person.
So it's this idea of not being fully accepted for
who we are by our partner or by someone in
a relationship. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that a person
(03:27):
has to like all of us, because being accepted is
different to being liked. You know, I might not like
every part of someone, but I can accept them for
who they are. And I guess again, coming back to
this idea of I need to feel like I can
be myself and I can have a voice. If that
isn't there, then we're really looking at an unhealthy dynamic
(03:49):
in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Essentially, what I'm hearing is at the bottom of it.
If the relationship doesn't have those key foundations of trust
and safety, a lot of things can happen, which I
know we'll dive into a little bit later.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Absolutely, and I love that you use the words trust
and safety because when we think about what a healthy
relationship looks like, or a healthy dynamic looks like on
the flip side, it absolutely is one where we feel
like we have that trust and that security in the
relationship with someone. And the reality is we all have
(04:21):
what we refer to in the psychology world as core
emotional needs. So we all have core physical needs, right
we all need water and food and shelter and protection
from the elements, etc. But we all also have core
emotional needs. So these are things like we all have
the need for secure attachment with other people. We need
(04:45):
to feel safe and securely connected to other people in
our life. We all have the need for being able
to express ourselves emotionally and to have that heard and validated.
By other people, and we all have the need for autonomy,
for competence, for independence, to have a sense of self,
(05:07):
to know who I am in the world and feel
I can express that freely.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
And I really it's kind of extending on to expressing
that freely. I think it's really interesting because when we
think of unhealthy relationships and healthy relating, I feel like
communication is really important. And the reality is in a
healthy relationship you are going to come up against conflict
and disagreements and everything like that. But I think it's
(05:32):
around how do you move through that process?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Absolutely, absolutely, and I think it's important at this point
as well to differentiate between things that are never okay
in a relationship versus dynamics that maybe don't suit us personally.
So we never want to be in a relationship where
we're consistently criticized, put down, called names by our partner
(05:57):
or by a friend, or by anyone we're in some
sort of friendship or relationship with. You know, there are
certainly some no goes that we don't want to accept.
But then there's also the other side where the way
I show up in the world might just be very
fundamentally different to how someone else shows up in the world,
and that creates a lot of friction and tension and conflict.
And it doesn't mean anyone's doing anything wrong. It just
(06:20):
means that the dynamic doesn't work as seamlessly as we
might like it to.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So obviously, for our purposes today, let's drill down on
how to say no, specifically to people we are actually
in some sort of relationship with. You know that can
be family, partners and friends.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah. Absolutely. I have a great example that comes to
mind of someone I worked with. We'll call her Rebecca,
and she found herself in a really challenging dynamic with
her mum. The kind of mother daughter relationship is one
that I and then I hear about a fair bit.
I'm not gonna lie in the therapy room where there
are certain expectations sometimes placed on a daughter to show
(07:01):
up in certain ways, whether that be how she kind
of presents herself in the world. So this person I
worked with, Rebecca, had a lot of expectations from mom
as to how she should look, what she should wear,
how she should interact with other people, but also how
she should contribute as an adult to the family, how
she should help out, how she should help take family
members to doctor's appointments and help them with the groceries
(07:23):
and the shopping, and you know, be available for all
the family lunches and dinners. So there was just a
lot of expectations placed on her and she really struggled
to figure out how to maintain her own independence and
identity and life whilst also keeping that relationship with her mum,
because at the end of the day, it's not like
(07:43):
she wanted to cut mum off. She wanted a happy,
healthy relationship with her, but just struggle to navigate that.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Okay, so there's a lot of Rebecca's tuning in today.
Why is it that we're so inclined to say yes?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
This is a great question because again it comes back
to biology and what we're hardwired. I know, last week
we were talking about emotions and how those are sort
of biologically ingrained dinner us. This desire to say yes
or the desire to not say no is biologically ingrained
in us. And I'll explain why from an evolutionary perspective.
(08:22):
If we think back to the caveman days, it was
really important for us to be part of the pack
for the survival of ourselves and survival of the species.
We needed to be part of the broader group, and
if we weren't, if we were isolated, we were more
vulnerable to threats, would be more likely to be eaten
by a tiger or a lion, or we'd be more
(08:43):
vulnerable in life and it would be harder to survive.
So we have this ingrained sense of wanting to do
what we need to do to stay connected with others. Nowadays,
fast forward, how many hundreds and thousands of years, we
can survive pretty easily without that desire and ingrained need
(09:03):
to be so connected to other people. Right on a
physical level, we can survive. But because it is so
primal that part of us that wants to stay connected,
we find it quite hard to say no, and we
find that we are more inclined to say yes sometimes
when we actually do mean no.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
It's interesting when you say that, because I'm thinking about
how there's so many times where I actually want to
say no, but I say yes. But then in my body,
I'm actually feeling all these different sensations, Like I know
you're talking about the biology of things, is what's going
on in the body, Like is the actual physical symptoms.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Exactly in what you describe where we say yes, but
we actually mean no. We feel that tension, right, And
again I come back to emotions are sources of data
and information. If we're feeling that tension in the gut,
in our body somewhere, I would say to listeners, tune
into that feeling because it's telling you something. It's giving
(10:00):
you some sort of message that there's this conflict internally
happening within you.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So what is the impact of when we say yes
too much?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
It often means that we end up over committing. So
we might be saying yes to too many things and
then we're over committed. But the downside of that is
that maybe we don't end up having time for the
things that actually we really want to do, the things
that align with our values and that are important to
us in our life. So for everything we say yes to,
(10:31):
we essentially sacrifice something else. We only have so much
time in the day and so much kind of energy
that we have to work with through the week. So
by saying yes to certain things, we're also saying no
to others. And the things we say no to might
actually be quite important to us.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
And I think it's really great that you're touching on
values again, because I know we spoke about that last
week and the importance of values and how it's needed
in decision making, but also how it's really relevant in
relationships as well, and how we communicate absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And the other downside of saying yes too often to
things that maybe we don't really want to or don't
feel inclined to, is that over time, we can inadvertently
send ourselves a message that our needs are not important,
that my needs are not valuable or as important as others.
And it's actually a way in which I somehow lose
(11:25):
respect for myself. If I'm not able to communicate to
someone else the know or communicate to someone else what's
important to me and what I need time for, I'm
actually disrespecting myself in the process.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
It also kind of feels like self betrayal too.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Hmmm. Yes, the idea of self betrayal is a really
big one, and I think a really important one for
us to unpack, because it really is this notion that
we don't give ourselves the time and the respect to
fully explore what's important to us and communicate that to others, right,
because there's something to be said for we need to
(12:02):
show and teach others how we want to be treated.
So if we show up in a relationship where we're
constantly saying yes to everything, unless we actually tell that
person no, sometimes they're not going to know that we're
saying yes but meaning no, right, So they're just going
to continue treating us and acting in the way that
(12:22):
they are in the relationship because they don't know any different.
There really is an onus on us to be able
to communicate with others how we want to be treated,
how we want to fit in terms of a dynamic
in a relationship, and what we want from others.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And it kind of feels like with like the flip
side of self betrayal is taking itsself responsibility, Like it
is our responsibility at the end of the day to
be able to communicate that. And I'm interested too, because
I know, Rebecca, you know that's a mother daughter dynamic.
Like have you seen other kinds of relationships where these
kind of behaviors are playing out?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Absolutely, So I use the mother daughter dynamic as a
as a common one, but we see it play out
amongst friends. You know, we might have a friend who's
constantly asking something from us. Maybe it feel a bit
like a one way friendship where the one who's constantly
trying to reach out and organize things with them or
they're constantly asking us for things. We see this in friendships,
we see it in sibling dynamics, we see it in
(13:21):
romantic relationships. It can really play out in any kind
of relationship where there's some degree of intimacy, and when
I say intimacy, I mean emotional intimacy. Self sacrificing is
also a really important part of this conversation because we
might find ourselves in situations where we genuinely feel like
other people's needs are more important than ours. This is
(13:44):
what self sacrificing comes down to, This idea that I
need to give and give to others in order to
feel like I'm a good person. And if I don't
do that, then I feel really bad and guilty about
who I am in relationships.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Oh gosh, I can definitely speak to self sacrifice, and
I can just get out my scroll of all the
times I've done it, and I definitely know that this
is so common among so many women, and I know
for me. I think for me, I'm naturally someone that
does want to put my needs in the backseat and
be of service to, you know, the people that I
love most. And I remember recently I was going through
(14:18):
a really hard time emotionally and I just had to
try and take care of myself. But I remember getting
a miscall from one of my good friends who I
know is really struggling as well. And it was this
moment because I had a friend of mine who was
really honest with me recently. She said, Shany, you need
to actually put yourself first and not keep sacrificing yourself.
(14:39):
And that was hard to hear. But also I really
trust her wisdom. So I just remember in that moment
when I saw that misscall from a friend, I just
sent her a message and I just said, hey, look
I can't chat right now. I'm really in it. Maybe
just send me a voice message for now and I'll
give you a call back later. And that was really hard,
because it is it is a skill, you know, especially
(14:59):
when you've been so programmed to go the other way.
It takes time.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
But I want to pick up on something you said. Yeah,
because you made this comment about putting yourself first, right,
and we hear this all the time. We've got to
put ourselves first, you know, don't just put other people's
needs first, put yourself first, And I almost want to
reframe that. And I think your example is a great one,
because did you put yourself first or did you put
yourself as equal to the other person? Like, from what
(15:25):
I hear you're describing, you respected yourself and what you needed,
and you respected what the other person was wanting from you,
what your friend was wanting, which was to have some
degree of communication and connection. So I don't know that
you like necessarily put yourself first, And I feel like
people can rebel against that. It feels like a bit
of a selfish thing to do, but we can certainly
put ourselves as equal.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, I actually never heard it like that before. Now
that you've said it, I'm like, oh, that's going to
stick with me because it is a bit of a
reframe there. And also it's a bit like when you're
on the aeroplane. It talks about you can put your
oxygen mask on first. We hear it all the time,
put your own oxygen mask before you put someone else's.
But also what you're communicating is, hey, I need to
have this face for me so then I can be
(16:08):
better and show up in the world and be a
better friend to you. After the shortbreak, doctor Anastasia is
going to teach you exactly how does they know to
loved ones in a healthy way? Stay with us, atas Asia,
how did you teach Rebecca how to reset that dynamic
(16:29):
with her mom? And how do we learn how to
do this with the relationships in our life without burning
any bridges.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
The first thing I taught Rebecca, and the first thing
I would recommend to all our listeners who want to
set some boundaries is learn how to not give an
answer in the moment. So when someone makes a request
from us, it's a really important skill for us to
be able to kind of say I need to get
back to you, or I can't give you an answer
(16:57):
right now. And in the case of Rebecca, she often
felt a lot of pressure and obligations from her mom,
so she really did want to maintain that relationship. It
was really important for her to have a close relationship
with her mom. She felt that pressure in the moment
to just sort of say, yes, Okay, I'll be at
that event, I'll be at the family lunch, I'll take
you to the shops on the weekend. You know, yes,
(17:17):
I'll do all these things. So The first thing we
actually practiced was how to say, I'll have to check.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
And get back to you, okay, I need you to
give us a script. How do we exactly say no.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yes okay? So first up, when we get the request,
we want to try and say I'll have to get
back to you right. And so this might sound something like, firstly,
nurturing the relationship. Always nurture the relationship. If it's an
important one to you, let the person know that. So
if Rebecca's mum is asking her to have lunch on
(17:51):
the weekend with you know, mum and the extended family,
and Rebecca's really not quite sure if she wants to
do that, when Mum calls and asks, Rebecca could say
something like, look, Mom, this sounds really lovely. I love
spending time with the family. I'm just not sure if
right now I'm going to be able to commit to
that for this weekend end. I'm going to need to
just check a few things and get back to you.
(18:12):
But thanks for asking, and I'll let you know right. So,
I want to step away from this idea of us
being like it's a no, like it's a hard no
to you know, no is a complete sentence yes, no
is a complete sentence, but it can come across more
beneficial to the relationship if we can sort of pad
that with nurturing the relationship. So first delay giving a response,
(18:34):
then I would recommend that, you know, at some point
Rebecca gives Mam a call back or text her back
in some way, again nurture the relationship. Hey, mom, I
know you asked me to join you guys for lunch
on the weekend, and it sounds like you're going to
have a really lovely time. I would have liked to
be there, but unfortunately I'm just not going to be
(18:54):
able to make it this weekend. I really appreciate you
reaching out and you know, offering for me to come,
but it's just not going to work with my schedule.
I'm really sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
So it's really interesting because these are really great. But
I'm also thinking about in the first step, moms, if
you get backlash straight away and the like I mean
with Rebecca's mom, I'm just saying, hypothetically, why's of Rebecca's
mom felt really offended. She's like, how what do you
mean you need to go away? Like, because she's noticing
a difference in the dynamic, right, So it can bring
(19:26):
up a lot for other people, like how do you
handle that?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I talk about this notion or technique of being a
bit of a broken record, right, because these are the
instances where we end up saying yes when we actually
meant no, when we feel the pressure, when we feel
like someone's guilt tripping us to say yes to something
when we really don't want to. So I talk about
this idea of being a broken record, and we can
do this really nicely, but it's literally just repeating ourselves
(19:53):
again and again. So it might be something like, I
hear your mom, I know you really wanted me to come. Unfortunately,
I'm just not going to be able to make it.
I get it, Mom, I know you would have really
liked me there. Unfortunately it's just not going to happen
this weekend. Yeah mom, I know, but unfortunately I'm just
not going to be able to make it. So really,
just sticking to your guns and very kindly just repeating
(20:13):
the same thing over and over.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I really love that because the way that you're saying
it is kind of what you're saying around nurturing the relationship,
and you're validating Rebecca's bum's experience where she might feel hurt.
So it's like, how do you do both? Which I
really love? So tell us what the next step is?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yes, okay, So the final step is the negotiation, right,
And this doesn't have to be the final step, right, No,
I can't come to lunch might be the final step.
But if the relationship is important to us and we
want to nurture it and we don't want to burn
those bridges, it might be for Rebecca or for the
person in Rebecca's shoes to think about what an alternative
(20:53):
might be that actually suits her needs. So maybe Rebecca
comes up with another option where she says, you know, look,
unfortunately I'm not going to make family lunch this weekend,
but I'd really love to see you one day through
the week for dinner. Is there a night that you're free,
I'll cook some lasagna and bring it over, you know,
So come up some alternatives to be able to negotiate
if our goal is nurturing that relationship.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So do you think a lot of this is influenced
by society or culture?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Absolutely, we definitely see differences depending on whether people have
grown up in a family dynamic or a culture that's
more sort of individualistic versus collectivists. So what we see
is that in those more individualistic societies and cultures, there
is more of a focus on being able to say
(21:42):
no and putting the boundaries in place, and less of
a focus on repair in relationships. What we see that
collectivist societies and cultures do really well is that they
focus on maintaining and repairing dynamics. The reality is that
we are always going to be faced in our life
with situations where we have to say no to people,
(22:03):
where ruptures occur in a relationship. It's normal and it's natural,
and part of what we need to learn is how
to be able to do that and become okay with it.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So a lot of this is getting comfortable with disappointing
other people.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Right. Absolutely, we're all unique people with different ways of
thinking and being in the world, and that means that
we're going to face conflict in life and we're going
to disappoint people sometimes. That's just a part of it.
And if we're not used to saying no or asserting
our needs with other people, it's probably going to feel
(22:36):
pretty uncomfortable to start with. It's a new different experience
for us, so we might actually find ourselves feeling a
little bit anxious to do it. And if that's the case,
then I advise listeners go back to episode one and
have a listen to how to deal with anxiety and
worry if it comes about guilt tripping.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
So is that is that ab our thing?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Absolutely, we can definitely have the experience of other people
making us feel guilty. And what I want to highlight
here is there is a difference between us feeling guilt
and other people imposing guilt on us. Right, I'm going
to come back. You'll probably hear me say this time
and time again through our episodes that emotions serve a function,
(23:17):
they're important. So if I feel guilt, if I naturally
feel guilt, doesn't feel pleasant, but it's an important emotion
because it tells me that I've done something that goes
against my moral code and my moral compass. So guilt
gives us important information that we've done something that we
don't feel good about, so that we can not do
it again in the future and maybe try and make
(23:38):
some sort of repair and amend. That's very different to
us feeling guilty because someone else has said we should
or made it out as if we should be ashamed
of ourselves for the decision that we've made. So it's
really important in these situations for people to stop and
reflect on is this guilt my own or is it
(24:02):
guilt that someone else is putting on me? Bib bib bib.
I'm having a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Guys, it's time for BRB having a crisis. This is
your opportunity, listeners to get Anastasia's advice and guidance on
your dilemma, challenge or big live question. Today we're hearing
from Ruby.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
My partner's a slow riser and loves easing into the weekend.
I'm the opposite up early, ready to get things done,
and I get restless if the day feels like it's
slipping by. He always says, why do you have to
be in such a rush, But it's not about rushing,
it's just how I'm wired. On top of that, he
watches every football game all weekend. I'm not into it,
and sometimes it feels like I'm sidelined trying to fit
(24:55):
in my own plans. I want to support his interests,
but I also want space for my own. It's tough
finding a balance between spending time together but also feeling
fulfilled in myself on the weekends.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Oh Ruby, this is a tough one, but I think
you're not alone because I've heard a lot of people
talk about this idea of individual identity versus the relationship identity,
and how do I keep space for my own sense
of self and who I am in the world and
in the relationship while also building, developing, and nurturing the relationship,
(25:30):
which forms an identity of its own. What I would
encourage you to do is, maybe, as you can predict,
this involves having a conversation with your partner, but invite
him into the solution right when you talk to him,
share what your thoughts, feelings, and concerns are, and try
and do so using eye statements. I feel this. I
(25:51):
think that this tends to result in more open communication
and the other person doesn't feel as defensive if we
start statements with I. But what I also encourage you
to do is invite him into the solution right. Open
up the challenge that you're facing with him, and invite
(26:13):
him to help you find a solution. So this might
be something like saying, I really value our relationship and
I want us to both feel good in it. How
do you suggest we go about navigating this, so you're
bringing him in so it can be a collaborative approach, because,
as you've highlighted, that balance between individual identity and the
(26:34):
relationship can be a challenging one to get right. And
there's not one clear answer that's going to work every week.
It's probably going to be an ongoing conversation with an
ongoing solution.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Saying no is literally such a skill. Sounds so simple,
but really it's not an asagia. Can you give us
a recap of what we learned today?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Absolutely? First up, it's okay to say no. Second, we
can say no to other people while still maintaining kindness
and rest for the relationship. Third, if saying no feels
hard in the moment, try to opt for a not
right now or I have to get back to you. Lastly,
(27:21):
by saying no, we will have times where others are
disappointed or they feel let down. This is normal and
natural and a part of life. If you value the relationship,
think about what else you can do to contribute to
the relationship that still nurtures it while maintaining your boundary.
Next week, we're tackling a biggie. It's what I hear
(27:42):
about from so many people in my life, not just
my work. We're going to be discussing the quickest and
easiest way to get out of a life rush and
reset when we feel like everything sucks.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
If you have any burning questions, there's a few ways
to get in touch with us links in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal history. The
executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I'm a Shani Dante.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
And I'm doctor Anaesthetia Hornus. The names and stories of
clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
we have links for more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(28:44):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of But Are You Happy?
If you'd like to hear more from Ashani and Anastasia,
there's a link to follow along in our show notes,
and of course The Quickie is back to regular scheduled
programming in your feed at six am tomorrow
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