Vanessa P. Daniel (Ep. 49, 2025 re-broadcast)

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a previously aired conversation (Ep. 25) with Vanessa P. Daniel, social justice activist and organizer, and author of Unrig The Game: What Women Of Color Can Teach Everyone About Winning, offering on-the-ground perspective on the obstacles community, union and electoral activist […]

The post Vanessa P. Daniel (Ep. 49, 2025 re-broadcast) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
If you're a podcaster or you wannalearn more about podcasting, then
you are invited to the K-U-T-K-U-T-XStudios Podcast Meetup on Wednesday,
November 5th, from six to 8:00PM at K UT Public Media Studios.
You'll get a tour of the station anda short presentation about what we're
up to here, but mostly this is aboutmeeting other Austin area podcasters.

(00:22):
There's gonna be free pizza anddrinks, and you can r RSVP and
find out [e-mail] slash.
Podcast.

(00:47):
From the University of Texas at Austin.
KUT Radio.
This is in black America.
Well, John, I have been working in.
Social justice spaces for almost 30 years.
It was 30 years ago that I ran myvery first organizing campaign as
a high school student in Seattle,Washington for ethnic studies.
And um, so I have had the privilegeof working in many different kinds

(01:09):
of movements from labor unions to,to LGBT rights, to reproductive
justice, to um, immigrant rights.
And I want our communities andI want our movements to win.
And I am very clear thatthere is no movement that is.
Worth its salt that is seriousabout winning, but benches.
Its MVPs for no good reason, particularlyin the clutch moment of a big game.

(01:33):
And we are in the fight of ourlives in this moment against
fascism in this country.
We absolutely need our full strengthas movements, and much of that strength
comes from our best and brightest leaders,so many of whom are women of color.
Vanessa Daniels social justice activistand organizer and author of Un Rigged
the Game, what Women of Color CanTeach Everyone about Winning Published

(01:55):
by Random House in this country.
Many of the most significantsocial justice and environmental
victories of our time have beenspearheaded by women of color leaders.
African American women foundedBlack Lives Matter, me Too, and the
US Reproductive Justice Movement.
Three of the most influential socialchange efforts in decades as a former

(02:16):
community and union organizer whostarted one of the largest foundations to
resource women of color led organizing.
Daniels dragged on candidateinterviews with 47 prominent
women of color movement leaders.
She also brings to the book HerOwn Experience at the ham of an
organization to offer an on the groundperspective of obstacles leaders face.

(02:37):
I'm Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And welcometo another edition of In Black America.
On this week's program,un rigged the Game.
What Women of Color Can TeachEveryone about Winning with
Vanessa Daniel in Black America.
You know, in the book I havesomething called the Job Description,
which lists, it's the long list ofthings that women of color leaders.

(02:58):
Are expected to do and putup with in movement, right?
Uh, that is driving a lotof people outta leadership.
But you know, the top five that Iemphasize the most are, uh, the top
five things that are benching us.
One is the invitation onto a glass cliff.
So to lead an organization incrisis, see this all the time of

(03:19):
women of color being brought in whenan organization is in a free fall.
And then expect it to either work ourblack or brown girl magic to save it or
take the fall for somebody else's mess.
This also by the way, looks like KamalaHarris being asked to mount a campaign
with less time than any other candidate.
The number two thing that benches usis the assumption of incompetence,

(03:41):
which causes us to work four timesas hard to be seen as half as
credible, and that weathers ourhealth, uh, our mental and physical
and spiritual health and wellbeing.
For 25 years, Vanessa Daniels workedin social justice movements as a labor
and community organizer and funder.
She founded and served for 17 years asExecutive director of Groundswell Fund.

(04:04):
A living funder of women ofcolor led grassroots organizing.
In her book, I'm Rigged The Game.
Daniel offered guidance on theleadership needed to tackle the social
and economic problems of the future.
Women of color has repeatedly demonstratedhow essential they are in the battle for
social and environmental change from thestreets to the ballot box to Congress.
No other demographic group in this nationstands up more strongly against hate and

(04:28):
more clearly for freedom, climate action,and human rights, and the fight for
democracy, justice, and the environment.
The book declares women of colorare leading on every count.
Despite ample proof that women ofcolor are effective leaders, Daniel
argued that they are unutilized insocial movement work and often lack
full support barriers to movement.

(04:49):
And those working in them harm allraces and genders, but exactly,
and especially harsh toll on womenof color leaders in black America.
Spoke with Vanessa Daniel,
I come, well, I was born in Chicago, butraised in Seattle, Washington in the.
Eighties and nineties and, uh, grew up inthat city as a half Sri Lankan and half

(05:11):
white kid, uh, in, in that era of time.
And was really influenced by justthe experience of growing up in
that particular brand of racismin the northwest, uh, uh, to,
to go into social justice work.
And so that's where I hail from.

(05:34):
Lived all over the country, butback here now in the Pacific
Northwest in Tacoma, Washington,
it seems that a lot of peoplethat I speak with have some type
of connection to Austin, Texas.
Talk to us about your connection.
I don't have a direct connectionto Austin, Texas, but um, I.
Of course have have fundeddifferent groups in the state
of Texas over the years.

(05:55):
My background is as a community andlabor organizer, and uh, then I spent
about 20 years running a foundationcalled Groundswell Fund, which.
Funded community organizing,particularly work led by women of
color and L-G-B-T-Q, people of colorthroughout the United States across
every major social justice movement.

(06:17):
And that definitely included somegroups in, in the great state of Texas
and a lot of respect and admirationfor those who are working for social
justice and for racial and genderjustice in, uh, states like Texas
and throughout the south because.
As the south goes, so doesthe rest of the country.
So a lot of appreciation and respectfor the work that goes on there.

(06:39):
Well, that's what I was alluding to.
Obviously some women had givenyou courage to do what you do that
were based here in Austin, Texas.
That's what I was, uh,particularly referring to.
Yeah.
I I think that the, the people whoI have supported in, in Austin,
Texas, like the national, uh, Latina.
Institute, um, for reproductivejustice and other groups have

(07:02):
been really, really critical to,to the, to the work nationally.
And, you know, it's been a privilegeto, to be in communication with
the black women's round table andto support black voters matter and
groups that work in states likeTexas and, and throughout the South
give us that, uh, backgroundabout groundswell.

(07:25):
Sure.
Well, when I finished about a decade ofwork as a community and a labor organizer,
I came into philanthropy as a communityfellow, which back in the early two
thousands was one of the only ways thatpeople who have worked on the ground with
communities could come into philanthropy.
And, um, I was introduced to thereproductive justice movement, which

(07:51):
at the time was 15 years old andstarted by black women like Loretta
Ross, the, the Great Loretta Rossand, um, was very inspired to.
Crosswalk by organizing skills intoorganizing resources for this movement.
So, um, ended up raising resourcesand groundswell evolved to become

(08:12):
one of the largest funders of womenof color led or organizing both
electoral and just community-basedorganizing across the country.
And, you know, it is, we moved ahundred million dollars to over 200
organizations across the country,and it was a unique model in that.
The majority of people who held thedecision making power from our board

(08:35):
of directors to our senior staff.
All the way on down were women of colorwho came out of the organizing sector,
who came out of working on the ground inour communities, and, um, was very proud
to have a board of directors that had aexecutive committee that was predominantly
black women who, um, were leaders in, indifferent movements for black liberation.

(08:59):
And, um, that was really,really important to me.
As a non-black woman of color to, toreally invite and receive and, and
honor that kind of guidance, that kindof political clarity and moral clarity
and the guidance of our strategy.
So that was the work of Groundswell.
I, I ran it for, I foundedit and ran it for 17 years.

(09:20):
And, um, it was one of the inspirationsfor this book that I just wrote.
What are some of the other organizationsthat you serve on as on the board?
Oh, that I currently serve on?
Yes.
Um, I currently have the privilegeof serving as co-chair of the
national L-G-B-T-Q Task Force.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, I'm on theadvisory boards of the.

(09:43):
Environmental Justice resource collectiveof the Ali Foundation, which is a
group of eight women of color who justfinished advising about 75 million
to go to mostly women of color ledwork in the climate justice space.
I have the privilege of serving onthe brain trust of the Democracy
Frontline Fund, which supports blackled organizing across this country and,

(10:07):
um, among other, among other endeavors.
So it's, it's an honor to be able to.
Serving a volunteercapacity in many of these
and reading your work, it seems like thisis an autobiography, somewhat therapeutic.
What led you to, to takeon this undertaking?
Well, uh, John, I have been working insocial justice spaces for almost 30 years.

(10:31):
It was 30 years ago.
Then I ran my very firstorganizing campaign as a high
school student in Seattle,Washington for ethnic studies and.
Um, so I have had the privilegeof working in many different kinds
of movements from labor unions to,to LGBT rights, to reproductive
justice, to um, immigrant rights, and.
I want our communities andI want our movements to win.

(10:54):
And I am very clear that there is nomovement that is worth its salt that
is serious about winning that benches.
Its MVPs for no good reason, particularlyin the clutch moment of a big game.
And we are in the fight of ourlives in this moment against
fascism in this country.
We absolutely need our fullstrength as movements and.
Much of that strength comes fromour best and brightest leaders, so

(11:17):
many of whom are women of color.
I know I don't need to tell you.
And this program and where you'relocated, that you know, women of color
and black women in particular havebeen the backbone of movements in this
country, and yet we have never had.
A serious conversation in thepublic square about how much our
movements could be winning ifwe truly valued the strategic
brilliance that they're bringing.

(11:38):
And if we stopped making leadershippositions so treacherous for them.
So my inspiration was I wanted towrite a book that would really.
Help draw people's attention to thesuperpowers that they bring to movements.
And I emphasize three in particular.
And then also to the barriers thatwe can all be aware of and lift

(11:59):
to help them do their work better.
When they win, we all win.
And you know, these are very difficulttimes and I came out of this process of
interviewing almost 50 prominent womenof color movement leaders for this book,
feeling very hopeful and feeling very.
Inspired about our ability to win,and I think that that is something

(12:20):
that we all need in these times.
It is so demoralizing as weturn on the news every day.
It is, you know, it.
It is so, um, fear inducing what we'reseeing happening to our country every day.
It is another terrible story.
And so this book that has winning inthe title and that reminds us that we

(12:40):
can win and reminds us that we havean embarrassment of riches right under
our nose in these leaders that we canunlock to help us meet this moment.
Is, I hope, something that isgoing to leave folks inspired.
And that's a lot of the feedback thatI've been getting on the book tour,
uh, on the road is that people feelrenewed and inspired by reading this

(13:00):
and, and, um, in the work they're doingto continue forth, continue building
on the work of our ancestors andthis critical moment in this country,
I guess the elephant in the room, how isthe game being rigged in your opinion?
Yeah, well.
You know, in the book I have somethingcalled the job description, which lists,

(13:22):
it's the long list of things that womenof color leaders are expected to do
and put up with in movement, right?
Uh, that is driving a lotof people outta leadership.
But you know, the top five that Iemphasize the most are, uh, the top
five things that are benching us.
One is the invitation onto a glass cliff.
So to lead an organization in crisis.

(13:43):
And see this all the time of womenof color being brought in when an
organization is in a free fall and thenexpected to either work our black or
brown girl magic to save it or takethe fall for somebody else's mess.
This also, by the way, looks like KamalaHarris being asked to mount a campaign
with less time than any other candidate.
Uh, the, the number two thing that benchesus is the assumption of incompetence,

(14:09):
which causes us to work four times ashard to be seen as half as credible.
And that weathers our health,uh, our mental and physical and
spiritual health and wellbeing.
And it wastes a lot of timeand, and drains our energy.
Uh, the, the.
Leaders that I talked to, um, I'llgive an example of an incredible,

(14:31):
uh, black woman organizer, GloriaWalton, who's nationally recognized.
She now leads the Solutions Project,but talked about working for 13 years
without a real vacation until she endedup in the ER with chest pain and so
many stories that I heard from leaders.
Similar to this about the overwork andthe toll on people's physical health

(14:54):
that it is taking to, to meet theseunreasonable demands and to overcome
the assumption of incompetence.
The number three reason is the expectationto mother and mammy, and this was by
far the biggest pain point that I heardtalking to leaders, and this is the.
Being cast as mean or aggressive ornormal levels of assertiveness that

(15:18):
would be accepted from any other leader.
It's being told you're cold or unfeeling.
Anytime you say no, it is theexpectation that you not just create
an organizational environment that is.
Uh, fair and sustainable, but thatyou create a utopia where no one
ever feels a discomfort or a trigger.
And then the punishment thatis often meted out against

(15:40):
you in the public square.
If you don't deliver on thisimpossible standard, it is the
expectation that you perform.
Uh.
Degree of vulnerability in orderto make people less comfortable
with the specter of a woman ofcolor fully standing in her power.
And I will say that I heard more fromblack women than from any other group

(16:02):
that you know, this, this, this constantand tiresome accusation of being
aggressive or abrasive or mean for.
Just normal levels of, of clarity ofspeaking with clarity, folks saying that
they feel afraid of leaders when, youknow, all leaders did, was have a normal

(16:26):
conversation and state their opinion.
Um, this kind of, uh, stereotypeand expectation really,
really, really weathers people.
The, the fourth is this.
Is being given zero margin for error.
And we all saw this happenwith Claudine Gay at Harvard.
You know, the ear errordoes not need to be real.

(16:46):
It can just be perceived.
And then the last is when you'reattacked, you're abandoned.
And we saw this, for example, with theleaders of the original Women's March.
There were four of them, but only thethree who were women of color were singled
out for attack ads from the NRA thatincited people to threaten their lives.
And they were also dragged acrossthe internet, behind all these

(17:08):
false accusations and rumors.
And no one would return their calls inmovement or, you know, very few people
stepped in there with them to flank them.
People treated them like they wereradioactive and just stepped away.
Then a year later, the story broke bythe New York Times, that it was Russian
bots that were behind that as an attemptto cleave the women's movement, which

(17:30):
because people abandoned them, they weresuccessful at at in that period of time.
So these are just the top five thingsthat very universally are benching
so many women of color leaders.
And, um, you know, I bring thoseup because they're universal.
But of course I have a section ofthe book that's called We Are Not
a Monolith because of course thereare ways that people come for the

(17:53):
next of black women leaders that aredifferent than the ways they come for
the next of Asian women, Arab women,Latinas, and so on and so forth.
So, um, that is important too.
But these are the top five that I heardfrom nearly everyone that I talked to.
This is in Black America.
We'll be back with more ofour conversation in a moment.

(18:14):
If you're a podcaster or you wannalearn more about podcasting, then
you are invited to the K-U-T-K-U-T-XStudios Podcast Meetup on Wednesday,
November 5th, from six to 8:00PM at K UT Public Media Studios.
You'll get a tour of the station anda short presentation about what we're
up to here, but mostly this is aboutmeeting other Austin area podcasters.

(18:36):
There's gonna be free pizzaand drinks, and you can RSVP
and find out [e-mail].
Slash podcast
if you're just joining us, I'm JohnL. Hanson Jr. And you're listening to
In Black America, from K UT Radio andspeaking with Vanessa Daniel, social
justice activist, organized, and authorof Un Rigged The Game, how Women of

(18:57):
Color Can Teach Everyone About Winning.
Ms. Daniel, obviously the 40 womenthat you spoke with for this work was.
During your lifetime and during yourgeneration, are there other women that
you see on the horizon that's gonnapick up that manner than which you
all have carried for such a long time?
Oh, absolutely.

(19:17):
I mean, I think that.
There is a rich legacy, um, that, thatmy generation, and I'm 47 years old,
we are building on, and I did get tointerview some of my movement elders like
Dolores Huerta, who co-founded the FarmWorkers Union alongside Cesar Chavez.
You know, I sat down and hadconversations with elders like my
mentor, Aisa Douglas and her late greatpartner, Dr. Bernice Johnson, Reagan.

(19:41):
Who of course, were, um, luminariesas part of the civil rights struggle.
And my generation, I think wehave, we have built on that.
So talking to folks like Ashley WoodardHenderson, and, uh, Latasha Brown and
Linda Sarsour, an incredible nationalleaders, but young ones coming up.
You know, I spoke with, you know.
Grace and Mar Martinez,um, who runs United.

(20:03):
We dream, you know, incredibleleader parti and so important
her work, particularly this thismoment when immigrant rights
are so heavily under attack.
But I think that there is, we have justin incredible backbone and bravery coming
up from the younger generation as well,that we have seen across the board from

(20:24):
folks who played an instrumental role in.
Organizing the uprisings, followingthe murder of George Floyd and
Breonna Taylor, to people who havebeen working on the climate justice
front to folks who are, you know,working to fight for the rights of our
immigrant communities in this moment.
So, yes, absolutely.

(20:44):
It, it, it is a multi-generationalreflection in this book on.
On the work and also on, you know,for my generation, how we wanna leave
these positions better and less broken.
For the women of color who are comingup behind us, we want exponentially
less nonsense in their way so thatthey can actually have a clear

(21:06):
runway from which to take flightand their, in their leadership and.
Uh, support the, the workwe're we're gonna do.
I firmly believe that there's not a singlemajor social justice movement in this
country that is going to be able to winat scale without, without getting our.
Our foot off the neck of women ofcolor leaders, we absolutely need

(21:27):
their leadership in order to win atscale in this moment and in the future.
And so this book is not an addendumto the moment, is an imperative to it.
And speaking with these, these women,were there any particular thread in
which they articulated that led them tobecome involved in, in, in, in activism?

(21:48):
Yeah.
I mean, I, I think that.
Every single woman of color in thiscountry shares the experience of battling
this three-headed monster of extractivecapitalism and sexism, and racism.
And you know, these leaders respondedto that experience in their own lives

(22:13):
by deciding to go into movement.
Because, you know, there are people inevery population who, you know, really
answer the call to respond to the, thepain and suffering they've experienced and
that they've seen the women in their livesexperience by taking action to transform
the world so that other people don't haveto experience that to the same degree.

(22:37):
And I think it's incredibly importantin this moment we're in, because
what fascism essentially is, isit, is that three-headed monster.
That is the worst of the historyof this country on steroids.
And so women of color who have beenbattling it, you know, for hundreds of
years for our very survival in the UnitedStates, actually have something to teach

(22:59):
about America, about, about how to fight.
And we can look across and around theglobe and see that the path to fascism has
always been paved with the eroded rightsof three groups, women, LGBT people.
And oppressed racial and ethnic groups.
And every single woman of colorin this country is a member of

(23:21):
at least two of those groups.
And many of us who identify as queer,uh, in movement belong to all three.
And so we are under veryfew illusions that the way.
Through this moment is by keepingour heads down and following orders.
We are highly motivated to fightand I think that fight is something

(23:41):
that we see in the leaders in thisbook, and we see it in, you know,
where the backbone is showing up.
Even in the Democratic party.
When we look at a Jasmine Crockett,when we look at an A OC, when we look
at a Barbara Lee, you know, this is thekind of fight that we all need to be.
Inspired by that we all need torelight our torch on daily so that

(24:02):
we can keep that fire in our belly.
To remember to be brave in this momentand to not capitulate, to timidity and
to obeying in advance and to throwingvulnerable communities under the bus.
Um, we can and must meet this moment.
You talk about the silence of dynamicwomen of color that, uh, leaders face.

(24:23):
Why was it important foryou to break that silence?
Well, I mean, as our movement ancestorJames Baldwin says, you know, nothing
can be changed until it is faced.
Uh, there is a real challenge totalking honestly about the silence
that surrounds the treatment of womenof color leaders in our movements

(24:44):
without talking about the silence.
That's, that is.
Core to rape culture in this country.
And we know that we cannot dismantlerape culture without talking about it.
You know, that's why the Me Toomovement was so critical to begin
to, to begin to actually confrontand, and dismantle that culture and.

(25:08):
When we see leaders like Tarana Burke,who of course coined the phrase Me
Too, and was a catalyst for thiswork, had been in it for decades.
When we see, you know, public figureslike Oprah Winfrey speaking out about
this kind of abuse, that that does startto change, um, change those dynamics.
And by the same token.

(25:28):
You know, this silence where women ofcolor leaders are talking to each other
about these dynamics in the shadowsand it's never addressed in the public
square, does not allow for it to change.
And we need people who are notus to actually unr the game.
You know, I share in the book a story,I've two daughters, but my 13-year-old,

(25:49):
I was at one of her swim meets, andthere was another mother who had fallen
asleep in this holding chair and she.
She was so exhausted, clearly she'dfall asleep, head back, mouth open, and
she had a book across her chest thatsaid what to do when he won't change.
And you know, my point by sharingthat story is that, you know.
The, the notion that, that the peoplewho exhaust women of color movement

(26:12):
leaders should be allowed not tochange while we just study up on how
to become better Jedi and navigatingall this stuff is ridiculous.
So we have to break the silence.
We have to start talking about it.
We have to stop allowing itto be normalized so that it
can actually start to change.
And we have to ask people to get in therewith us and to stop being bystanders too.

(26:34):
The attacks that occur, uh,on women of color leaders,
how can average Americans support yourendeavor and other women of color leaders?
Well, I think each and every person inthis country, um, has an opportunity to
get involved in grassroots organizingfor, for systems change in their.

(26:56):
Uh, neighborhood and intheir city where they live.
Um, if they wanna connect in with nationalefforts, I would encourage people to look
up the Working Families Party, you know,to look up organizations like Black Voters
Matter, get engaged and get involved.
And then when you're in these spaces.
Look for and support women of colorleaders who are really doing the work and

(27:17):
who are truly accountable to communities.
Now, just like all of our skinfolks aren't our kin folks, um,
not every woman of color leader isnecessarily embodying the superpowers
that I talk about in this book.
So it's not about essentializingpeople, um, because Candace Owens
and Nikki Haley, and so we know that,that not everybody is doing the work.

(27:38):
But for the folks who are.
We wanna have their back.
And this book has a ton of concreteways to do that, and I wanna encourage
folks to do that because their freedomis about the liberation of all of us.
And folks can find out more about thebook and about the conversation on
my website, vanessa pier daniel.com.
Um, I'm also on, you know, all thesocials, Vanessa, Priya, Daniel, uh, um,

(28:02):
under that same, under that same name.
So look forward to beingin conversation with folks.
Yeah, there are many, many waysto, to get involved and be in
solidarity with each other.
In this moment, divide andconquer is how they win.
Solidarity is our only path through this.
One final question, Ms. Daniel, youare on tour or just got off tour.
How has it been and and whathas been the response thus far?

(28:23):
Uh, the response has been overwhelming.
I just completed a 10 city tour.
We were sold out in morethan half of the cities.
Um, people are so hungryto have this conversation.
And you know, and I think just excitedto be in community with one another.
We need each other in these times.
Vanessa Daniel, social justiceactivist and organizer and author of

(28:44):
Unrig The Game, What Women of Colorcan Teach Everyone about Winning.
If you have questions, comments,or suggestions as the future
in Black America program.
Email us at in Black [e-mail].
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(29:06):
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though of this station or of theUniversity of Texas at Austin.

(29:28):
Until we have the opportunity againfor Texaco producer David Alvarez.
I'm John L. Hanson, Jr. Thankyou for joining us today.
Please join us again next week.
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(29:49):
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(30:12):
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I'm John L. Hanson, Jr. See you tomorrow.