March 20, 2025 • 30 mins
Career setbacks happen to everyone, but how you respond to them determines your professional trajectory and future opportunities.
• The "tube top" comment highlights the importance of getting honest feedback after a rejection
• One word in an interview (describing a workplace as "hostile") can sink your chances if the interviewer takes issue with it
• Remember interviews are two-way conversations - you're also deciding if you want to work there
• Always be kind to gatekeepers (receptionists, assistants) as they can significantly influence hiring decisions
• Give yourself limited time (maybe 30 minutes) to feel disappointed, then refocus on moving forward
• The rearview mirror is small and the windshield is large for a reason - look ahead more than behind
• Building internal networks before positions open strengthens your candidacy when opportunities arise
• "Emotional resonance" with colleagues often matters more than qualifications when candidates are similar
• Congratulate the person who got the job you wanted - it shows maturity and teamwork
• Repeated rejections may indicate blind spots you can't see - seek honest feedback from trusted leaders
• Everyone successful has faced rejection - persistence and continuous improvement lead to eventual success
Thank you for listening! If you found this helpful, please share it with someone who could benefit, leave a review, and subscribe to the Scott Townsend Show on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Previously on the Scott Townsend Show.
One of the things you mentionedalso was asking for feedback.
If you don't get the position,so how do you go about asking
for feedback?
That's you know.
I've done that before and I'vehad unsatisfactory results with
that.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
How so Unsatisfactory ?
In what way?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Oh, number one.
I think you already know whyyou didn't get the job.
I think you kind of sort ofknow already.
You know, but you want somefeedback from others to tell you
what your blind spots are.
You know and see if there'ssomething that you didn't
realize.
Now I did have one person andthey just shot me straight as an
(00:43):
arrow man.
They were just like.
I won't tell you what they said, but it was Next time you
interview here.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Don't come in wearing a tube top.
Don't do it.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I mean it could be ridiculous stuff.
That tube top is a killer.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought to you by
Dietzelman Productions.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, my resume is put on foam because I wanted it
to stand out on their desk.
You know, if they no, thatshould do it.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, use it as a lunch tray or something.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Didn't work, but anyway, you know you try things.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Never know.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
It depends on what you know, what kind of position,
how it was all marketing, youknow, yeah, yeah, if you always
about creativity.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, If you're going to do that, maybe you send a
resume in.
That's like one of thosefathead things, like a giant
thing the size of a door Boy.
That's kind of how you getattention.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, stick it to their wall or their door.
Yeah, people don't know how togive feedback and I think
they're afraid to give feedback.
They're afraid to tell you, uh,maybe, what your blind spot is,
what you're not good at,because they're not good at.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
HR and their HR department may not allow them to
do that I mean like.
so that's very frustrating but,but you know, asking for it
again shows how willing you areto be a team player and to
conform to their expectations,you know, assuming that, um,
they don't have to compromiseanything in the process, and
(02:35):
it's helpful, you know.
So it's helpful to you if youcan get feedback.
So feedback, they say feedbackis a gift.
It absolutely is, uh, but itturned out to be good.
Later I'm interviewing foranother position.
It was another managementposition and I went into the
interview and you know some ofthe typical interview questions
are you know what are some ofthe most difficult circumstances
(02:57):
you know you've found inworking and what would you do to
make it different?
And what would you do to makeit different?
I'm just like, well, I wentinto this one and the management
team there, I would say, was alittle hostile, for whatever
reason.
I'm not sure why.
But here's what I did I juststayed persistent and worked
(03:18):
with them and built a goodrapport with people as I could,
some of those people wound upleaving.
They were replaced with otherpeople who are much easier to
work with and blah, blah, blah.
There was four directorsconducting this interview and
what I found out later because Ithought I had absolutely smoked
(03:41):
that interview I mean I feltlike I'd knocked it because
there's nothing I didn't know,there's nothing I couldn't
articulate well, and what Iheard was one of the people
there was a woman who I kind ofgotten some bad vibe from before
, you know whatever, but she'sshe's zeroed in on the one word
(04:03):
that I used, which was hostile,and she goes.
I don't feel like anybodycoming in here should describe
anything as hostile.
You know they shouldn't do that.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And so.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I, I couldn't, I can't vote for his candidacy.
That's what happened and that,and that's what I was told by
some of the other one of theother directors who was in there
to- he kind of gave me thebackground on it.
I'm like okay.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
One word so.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I'm like, how can I course direct yeah, which was a
question you should ask?
Yeah, and is using that word,you know?
Is it really out of bounds Ifyou're asking me for the most
difficult situation?
And I'm describing why thatsituation was difficult?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
You know I'm not in there dropping the f-bomb or,
you know, saying somethingthat's untoward or something you
know it was professional.
It's keeping it professional,of course, but that that sunk.
To me that felt very unfairyeah but it's also like you know
, if, if they're gonna, ifthey're gonna allow somebody to
be sunk on something like that,you know, do you really want to
be part of that organizationright going to allow?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
somebody to be sunk on, something like that.
You know, do you really want tobe part of that organization?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
right?
No, the answer is no becausebecause listen, it's an
interview, it's a two-wayconversation and they've got a
decision to make in there.
But but so do you and you.
And just because they make youthe offer, and your goal should
be to get the offer, but thatdoesn't mean you should take it,
or that you know know if youdecide that, yeah, you may
decide that, well, I've gotanother offer, or, you know,
(05:28):
after, after interviewing, Idon't think.
I don't think I'm going tochoose to put myself under a
leadership team that is kind ofstruggling to provide basic
leadership, and I would ratherhave a strong management team,
leadership team, and so I'mgoing to choose not to take this
one I just got a better offerover here and I'm going to take
(05:50):
that one, but you have it's atwo-way thing.
And just because they make it,they don't hold all the cards.
You know, you hold some cardstoo.
So you have a decision to makeyou talked about.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You were talking reflecting on your performance.
Uh, after the interview, talkabout that for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
If I come out of an interview and say, yeah, I was
dressed for success, I kind ofexuded positive attitude and I
addressed everybody politely.
By the way, the gatekeeper isin a process.
When you go into an interview,be nice to the gatekeepers.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Because they can sink you.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And if you don't believe that, then you'll learn
eventually.
But they can sink you and theywill sink you.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That might be the most important thing that's said
in this episode.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, no, stay in the game was the most important
thing, but that's, that's rightup there, I guess.
But that's, that's right upthere, I guess.
But I don't know.
I, I just you just kind of havea a good um feeling, because I
didn't receive any, any negativefeedback from any of the
answers that I gave, other thanmy word choice in describing a
hostile environment as hostile.
You know, I don't know, I don'tknow, or she would have
(06:57):
preferred, maybe she, shepreferred that I would have said
challenging, a superchallenging environment.
Maybe soften it a little bit.
There's always something you canlearn, but in the end it's kind
of also can't take it back.
Some of the stuff is like super, super nitpicky.
I didn't hear.
Well, you didn't know this.
You stumbled on this answer,bob, I didn't stumble on
anything.
(07:18):
Yeah, you know, and I know howto answer the the question in
depth.
If they have any follow-upquestion you, how far down the
rabbit hole do you want to go?
Because I think I know thestuff better than you do.
Now, of course you don't saythat or you shouldn't exude that
, they shouldn't get theimpression that you feel that
way.
But when you really know yourstuff and you answer the
(07:39):
questions well, and you can goas far in depth as they want to.
I think you can say that youpretty much knocked it apart and
read the non-verbals in theroom.
You know, some people are hardto read.
They'll sit there and theywon't change their expression.
Some people, as you're talking,they'll be nodding their head
and smiling and go yeah, youknow, I I thought that one time,
if you get that, that's, andwhen you get those kind of cues
(08:07):
which I did get, um, you knowthose, those are good things and
so you can kind of evaluateyour own performance.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
But you never know until you get the feedback and
you you always have theopportunity to improve something
, no matter what the other thingis uh, going along those lines
is uh, how do you stay positivewhen you come out of a a
situation and you don't getpromoted?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
yeah, and that's staying positive, is staying in
the game.
And if you're not going to staypositive, if you know everybody
experiences disappointment inthe process, so that's what you
feel.
But how you respond is up toyou.
And if you're going to respondin a negative way or, you know,
twist off on somebody, tell themwhat an idiot they are for not
(08:51):
hiring you or go out of thatroom when you get your rejection
, go out and bad mouth if you'repart of the company.
You go out, you bad mouth, youknow people who are in there,
you know you're just not doingthe right things and I would say
in that case they made a gooddecision not to give you the
offer.
You're not ready exactly you'renot ready, yeah, if you, if you
(09:14):
, if you can't stay in the gamelike, if you can't get out of
your own way, you're not ready.
You know, for whatever job theywere just giving you, you
wouldn't be my leading candidateif somebody did that.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
It's okay to be upset , it's natural.
I mean you're disappointed,you're upset.
Maybe even give yourself 30minutes at lunch just to sit in
the car and pound the steeringwheel and you know whatever, but
make sure no one else sees that.
(09:50):
Or you do it with someone whoyou really trust, like your wife
or your husband or whoever agood friend give.
It's a natural reaction, let itout, don't try to bottle it up.
But then, after the 30 minutesis up and this is part of your
playbook maybe is okay, nowwe're done, done.
(10:10):
You got all that out of yoursystem.
We're good.
Okay, we're good, all right.
Yeah, pat them on the bottomand say, okay, get back in the
game yeah, I think yes what doyou think about that?
but?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
but I think, I think you know your human reaction.
You know um, disappointment,you know being angry or
something, that those are allnatural kind of feelings.
But are you going to allow yourfeelings to interfere with your
success?
And if you, I think I thinkit's natural to kind of give
that a little room, kind of workit out of your system or
whatever.
(10:45):
But man don't give it much play,I think you don't really manage
the amount of time you know andyou got to get focused on why
you didn't do well and thinkabout how you're going to course
.
Correct is 30 minutes or a week.
(11:09):
Whatever you know, whateveryour strategy is, you can never
allow whoever you're engagedwith to see that you know you
have, you have to come off, youhave to present the polished
person that you are.
you know, if you it's kind oflike, you know, when somebody
really kicks you off, you knowand you want to really work it
out, and you write an email, youknow, just go in there and put
(11:30):
everything in there and tellthem what a jerk they are, you
know, and then now you've gotthat out of your system.
Now let's sit down and let'srewrite that email and let's you
know.
but it's kind of like the rearview mirror, kind of little
anecdote.
(11:51):
It's like the rear view mirroris very small and the windshield
is very large, and that's agood representation of how much
time you need to spend lookingback versus looking forward.
So it's natural to bedisappointed, but I would say,
give that as little play in yourhead space as you possibly can
(12:14):
and get focused on what you needto be focused on, which is
responding in a positive way andcontinuing to sell yourself and
keep yourself in the game.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
That's keeping yourself in the game.
Yeah, that's keeping yourself inthe game.
Yeah, you mentioned last weekabout additional training
Toastmasters, things like that.
You might find in your feedbacksession with a trusted advisor,
mentor, whoever that you needsome additional training in
(12:46):
certain areas, and that's got tobe okay, I guess.
I mean, you want to know thatand you need to invest in
yourself.
I think and if that's what'sholding me back if I don't know
Excel very well, or if I don'tknow how to handle conflict
resolution, or I don't know howto speak well like I'm doing
(13:10):
right now it's important thatseek out additional training to
shore up your shortcomings thatprocess never ends.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
you should always be looking for opportunities.
There's always something youcan improve you can always be
done and you can always do itbetter.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Network internally.
What's that all about?
So you don't get promoted.
So what do you do?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
you network internally if you're
interviewing for a jobinternally in your company,
that's awesome because you haveaccess to the company directory,
you know the people and um, youshould take full advantage of
that, and this is reallypre-work.
If you think you're going to beinterested in promotion, don't
wait until or or if you'reinterested in a position that
(14:04):
that comes open.
From time to time, you have anidea where you want to work.
So get to know those people.
Get to know them and makefriends with them.
Help them in any way that youcan.
Set up time and go have coffeewith them.
Don't waste their time.
Find out what kind of thingsare going well for them, what
kinds of things aren't goingwell in their area how you might
(14:26):
be able to help them.
How you might be able to helpYep and those kinds of things,
because you're, you're buildingalliances and friendships in the
process.
I was reading something theother day and and it wasn't on
this topic, but I think his, hisobservation and study applies
(14:46):
here, and that is, whether youthink it's good or bad.
Emotional resonance is morepowerful than truth.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
What's emotional resonance?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
My ability, your ability to emotionally relate to
somebody and build arelationship and good rapport,
is more important than your factor your skill level.
Maybe even the point of thatthing was you would think that
facts for people would be morecompelling than an emotional
(15:23):
argument, and with people that'sactually not the case.
Emotional resonance is morecompelling than fact.
And so in the context of aninterview and building a network
, that emotional resonance whenyou go into the interview and
(15:44):
I'm looking at you and I've hadcoffee with you six times over
the past 18 months and I'vedeveloped a relationship with
you and a friendship with youthose kind of things are kind of
like uh, powerful emotionalconnections with somebody and,
when it comes down to people ofsimilar talent and skill level,
(16:07):
you're going to get the nod ifyou have that kind of because
they they know you're a knownquantity to them.
They already know that you're aculture.
They're not taking any risk byknowing that.
They don't know exactly howyou're going to interact with
the team.
They know that you're not goingto wear your emotions on your
sleeve.
They know that you're going tobe level-headed and methodical
and you care about the companyand you're not just focused on
(16:28):
yourself and everything.
You're there to help them andother people succeed as well.
You're just an excellent teamplayer, and who doesn't want
that?
Everybody wants that, so ifthey already know that about you
, the risk of your candidacyjust went way down.
Now it's all about do you havethe job skill?
Your candidacy just went waydown.
Now it's all about do you havethe job skill.
(16:48):
And it may be that your jobskill is slightly less than
somebody else, but the otherperson doesn't seem to be as as
good of a culture fit, and so,again, you know, the weight goes
to the person who's made thoseconnections, who has done all
the pregame work to besuccessful that just goes.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
So that goes to the getting the job portion.
But why a network if you didn'tget the promotion, why do you
continue the network?
Why?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
why don't I just stay in the game if you know you
don't want to interview anymore.
If you know you don't have anyinterest, then stop.
And if that's the case, youneed to go find yourself another
department, another company orsomething like that.
But if you're thinking, if asimilar job comes up in the
future, do you still want it?
Would you want it?
Nine out of 10 are going to geta rejection, so you got to
(17:43):
decide in advance.
If you want to be successful,how are you going to react if
you're not one of those people?
And just, in a way, it's kindof a numbers game.
But there's things you candefinitely do to improve your
odds and get started about doingit.
And if you're not willing to dothose things, then again you're
not the right person for thejob.
When it comes up again, you'renot the right person for the job
(18:03):
.
When it comes up again, you'rejust not.
So if it's something that'simportant to you, if it's
something that you want, don'tbe viciously mediocre, you know,
get on with it.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I posted that video at the bottom of the show notes
from last week's episode abouthow to get promoted.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, that's such a motivational thing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So you should continue to perform well after
you don't get the job.
Uh, people shouldn't be able tosee even a hiccup in your
performance.
There should not be a blip inthe.
Uh.
The ekg on the radar it's youknow.
It once again is a testament toyour maturity and your skill
(18:47):
level and your foresight.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah forget about what everybody else is saying
about you.
What is your commitment toquality?
What does your brand mean toyou?
It's got to be more than whatsomebody else thinks.
It's got to be what you thinkabout your brand versus about
what what anybody else saysabout you.
Do you have a strong brand?
Build your brand.
I remember it went in thatinterview, by the way, with the,
(19:12):
with the lady who didn't likemy choice of words, um,
describing it to the environmentas hostile.
Um, after the interview, Ifound out, uh, you know who who
was successful and the guy whogot the interview.
I found out, uh, you know whowho was successful and the guy
who got the job uh, I know, Iknew and I agreed that he would
(19:33):
be a good fit for the role I did.
I'm not mad at him, you know,for you know, succeeding in the
process, um, you know he, justthey, they chose him and I
respected that decision.
And you know I still wrote they, they chose him and I respected
that decision.
And you know I still wrote myletter of thanks to those people
.
I did before I found out whatwas going on.
But then, when I found out, youknow that this guy who I know
(19:56):
won't mention his name, butlet's call him Mike.
When I found out that Mike gotthe job over me, I sent Mike a
note and I said hey.
I was also interviewing for thisjob.
You got the job and I offer mycongratulations.
I think you're very deservingand a great fit for your new
(20:21):
role and if there's anything Ican ever do to help you be
successful, reach out and let meknow.
That was it.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Now you're in the 0.00001% Because no one is going
to do that.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, that's a good move, andyou know.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
So I had, I had a good relationship with that guy
and it was a strong relationshipuntil I retired.
I quit, I just decided that Ireally didn't want to be in that
environment for a number ofreasons, and so I decided not to
pursue those kind ofopportunities and I could have
(21:01):
let's talk about that for asecond considering other
opportunities.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
let's talk about that for a second.
Considering other opportunitiesmaybe you should consider some
other opportunities.
If you keep getting turned downfor a position or positions, uh
, maybe, uh, is it a good thingto consider lateral moves or
actually moving to anotherdepartment or jump ship and go
to another company?
If, if, what you're doing andjust just make sure you're doing
(21:29):
it all right and it's notbecause of you, but if you're
doing everything right, shouldyou?
Is it a show of weakness or notstaying in the game If you
start looking for a lateral move, another department or actually
moving to another company?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
If you're continually trying to get a position and
time after time after time,you're getting rejected for the
interview or you're gettingrejected for the job, let's say
something's probably off.
You've got a blind side, mostlikely that you don't see, and
so I think it'd be time for somehonest self-assessment.
(22:09):
And boy, it's hard to findsomebody who'll be honest with
you because they're afraidyou're going to get mad or it's.
It's just hard, like you saidearlier, to give people feedback
.
So you really want to findsomebody who is a good leader,
because a good leader will giveyou good feedback, you know, and
so I think you really shouldpursue that.
(22:30):
But it may be that you're justnot a good fit.
You know.
It's not a good culture fit.
It could be that too, you know.
So you gotta, you gottaconsider all those things.
But something probably, um, butmore than likely, there's
something that you don't seeabout you and your fit and how
you're preparing or notpreparing, whatever.
There's something in there thatyou may be blindsided by.
(22:53):
So when you try to do an honestself-assessment, you may be
continually looking over becauseyou don't see it.
By definition, it's a blindspot.
So you've got to find somebodywho's going to be honest with
you and let you know what thosethings are.
Yeah, I think, if you do thosethings, I think your odds of
success go way up and you becomeyou actually become a better
(23:17):
employee because you're you areperforming at a level, hopefully
, that is ready for the nextlevel, and your attitude is good
and you're a team player andyou're just attractive in all
those ways to a company in avery competitive environment
(23:39):
that needs a good team.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So if you can be that person, you're going to get
your opportunity and promotionstake time and you go through
interviews and whatnot and youget turned down.
And I know I was talking toJordan Roberts about this.
I interviewed her on the showshe's our store manager and she
(24:03):
was talking about how she hadbeen turned down, like all of us
have, for positions that shewas wanting, and so she just
made up her mind that the nexttime I get interviewed, the next
time a promotion or opportunitycomes up, there is absolutely
no way that they can't or can'tnot hire me or however.
(24:26):
However, however, you would saythat that there's no way that
I'm not going to be the personI'm going to.
I'm firing on all eight and I'min that.
So that means from now untilthe next opportunity, which you
don't know when that's going tobe.
It could be three months fromnow, four months from now or
next week, you don't know.
But okay, so I's going to be.
(24:47):
It could be three months fromnow, four months from now or
next week, you don't know, butOK, so I'm going to be positive,
I'm going to.
You know good networking skills.
I'm going to continue to gettrained, all that stuff you know
just.
And so when that time comes upand there's another opportunity
and you throw in for it.
Opportunity and you throw infor it is like there's no way
(25:11):
I'm not going to hire thisperson because they are just
stack the odds in your favor.
Listen to this podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Listen to it every day some people just have a kind
of like you can look at.
They just have a charmedexistence and they just zoom
straight to the top.
Chances are they do all the allthe um, the right things.
Well, um, and that's the reasonwhy they've gone to the top.
(25:36):
There's naturally good at, theyprobably made a study of it and
they just they're an, a player.
You know, before the other 99of us, like jordan, um, we all
have had disappointments in theprocess.
You can talk to somebody who isa manager.
They're a manager, they're anexecutive, whatever, whatever
level.
All of those people I mean youcan pretty easily say all those
(25:59):
people have tried to get a jobat one time or another and
didn't get it, or were laid offat some time in their career and
and now they've made it, and soevery one of those people can
tell you about rejection and howthey didn't get a position that
they hit energy for.
Yet here they are, they're amanager, they're a director,
they're an executive director,they're their vp, and if they
(26:23):
can do it, they experience thesame thing and you can do it too
.
And so let that beencouragement to you that all
those people to be successful,be successful.
You just have to be persistentand you just have to stay in the
game and you just have to beconstantly improving your game.
That's all there is to it yeah,there's no short of those
things you're going to wind up.
You know everybody's cut out tobe, you know, a top executive
(26:44):
kind of person, or wants to beor wants to be, but everybody
wants to be good at what they do.
I think it's those who reallytry.
You may not have the stuff tobe the absolute best software
engineer, but you can be areally darn good one.
You never stop trying toimprove your own game in what
(27:08):
you do so that you can be thebest you can be.
It may not be the very topperson, but you never know until
you try.
You'll never know how good youcan be at something and you'll
never maximize your ownpotential until you start doing
some of these things right and Ithink a successful career can
be built on that.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Well, that was a good discussion what to do when you
don't get the promotion.
If you have any questions,comments, concerns regarding
this topic, this discussion,send them to scotttownsendinfo
(27:50):
info.
Uh, you know, leave a review,subscribe like, share this
interview with uh, maybe you'vegot kids, college kids college
friends, people that are in thejob market, and you know, or not
, even kids, I mean heck,anybody.
If you're in the marketplace,um, this episode's for you
because you're going to needthis episode at some point.
So, anyway, last few words,turn it over to you.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
These are just some of my things I've learned from
being in the trenches on bothsides of the equation, so people
may find there are other thingsyou know in this process that
somebody could speak to, basedon a different experience.
So this is just mine.
If it's helpful, that's great.
If you don't find it helpful,that's fine too.
This is just my experience andmy experience is different than
other people's.
(28:36):
But I enjoyed the discussion.
I think it's good questions,good discussion.
I do think there's things thatpeople can learn from people who
have been through it before.
Whether they've, you know,succeeded or failed, there's
always something to learn.
So hopefully this, thisdiscussion, will be that right,
that's it okay.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well, for ben townsend.
This is scott townsend.
Thanks for watching, listeningto the scott townsend show.
Have a great day.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Everything's gonna be all right and we'll talk to you
(29:25):
later.
The Scott Townsend Show is aDietz-O-Man production.
For more episodes, visit theScott Townsend Show YouTube
channel, listen on ApplePodcasts or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows you.
Previously on the Scott Townsend Show.
One of the things you mentionedalso was asking for feedback.
If you don't get the position,so how do you go about asking
for feedback?
That's you know.
I've done that before and I'vehad unsatisfactory results with
that.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
How so Unsatisfactory ?
In what way?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Oh, number one.
I think you already know whyyou didn't get the job.
I think you kind of sort ofknow already.
You know, but you want somefeedback from others to tell you
what your blind spots are.
You know and see if there'ssomething that you didn't
realize.
Now I did have one person andthey just shot me straight as an
(00:43):
arrow man.
They were just like.
I won't tell you what they said, but it was Next time you
interview here.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Don't come in wearing a tube top.
Don't do it.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I mean it could be ridiculous stuff.
That tube top is a killer.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought to you by
Dietzelman Productions.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, my resume is put on foam because I wanted it
to stand out on their desk.
You know, if they no, thatshould do it.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, use it as a lunch tray or something.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Didn't work, but anyway, you know you try things.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Never know.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
It depends on what you know, what kind of position,
how it was all marketing, youknow, yeah, yeah, if you always
about creativity.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, If you're going to do that, maybe you send a
resume in.
That's like one of thosefathead things, like a giant
thing the size of a door Boy.
That's kind of how you getattention.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, stick it to their wall or their door.
Yeah, people don't know how togive feedback and I think
they're afraid to give feedback.
They're afraid to tell you, uh,maybe, what your blind spot is,
what you're not good at,because they're not good at.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
HR and their HR department may not allow them to
do that I mean like.
so that's very frustrating but,but you know, asking for it
again shows how willing you areto be a team player and to
conform to their expectations,you know, assuming that, um,
they don't have to compromiseanything in the process, and
(02:35):
it's helpful, you know.
So it's helpful to you if youcan get feedback.
So feedback, they say feedbackis a gift.
It absolutely is, uh, but itturned out to be good.
Later I'm interviewing foranother position.
It was another managementposition and I went into the
interview and you know some ofthe typical interview questions
are you know what are some ofthe most difficult circumstances
(02:57):
you know you've found inworking and what would you do to
make it different?
And what would you do to makeit different?
I'm just like, well, I wentinto this one and the management
team there, I would say, was alittle hostile, for whatever
reason.
I'm not sure why.
But here's what I did I juststayed persistent and worked
(03:18):
with them and built a goodrapport with people as I could,
some of those people wound upleaving.
They were replaced with otherpeople who are much easier to
work with and blah, blah, blah.
There was four directorsconducting this interview and
what I found out later because Ithought I had absolutely smoked
(03:41):
that interview I mean I feltlike I'd knocked it because
there's nothing I didn't know,there's nothing I couldn't
articulate well, and what Iheard was one of the people
there was a woman who I kind ofgotten some bad vibe from before
, you know whatever, but she'sshe's zeroed in on the one word
(04:03):
that I used, which was hostile,and she goes.
I don't feel like anybodycoming in here should describe
anything as hostile.
You know they shouldn't do that.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And so.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I, I couldn't, I can't vote for his candidacy.
That's what happened and that,and that's what I was told by
some of the other one of theother directors who was in there
to- he kind of gave me thebackground on it.
I'm like okay.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
One word so.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I'm like, how can I course direct yeah, which was a
question you should ask?
Yeah, and is using that word,you know?
Is it really out of bounds Ifyou're asking me for the most
difficult situation?
And I'm describing why thatsituation was difficult?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
You know I'm not in there dropping the f-bomb or,
you know, saying somethingthat's untoward or something you
know it was professional.
It's keeping it professional,of course, but that that sunk.
To me that felt very unfairyeah but it's also like you know
, if, if they're gonna, ifthey're gonna allow somebody to
be sunk on something like that,you know, do you really want to
be part of that organizationright going to allow?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
somebody to be sunk on, something like that.
You know, do you really want tobe part of that organization?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
right?
No, the answer is no becausebecause listen, it's an
interview, it's a two-wayconversation and they've got a
decision to make in there.
But but so do you and you.
And just because they make youthe offer, and your goal should
be to get the offer, but thatdoesn't mean you should take it,
or that you know know if youdecide that, yeah, you may
decide that, well, I've gotanother offer, or, you know,
(05:28):
after, after interviewing, Idon't think.
I don't think I'm going tochoose to put myself under a
leadership team that is kind ofstruggling to provide basic
leadership, and I would ratherhave a strong management team,
leadership team, and so I'mgoing to choose not to take this
one I just got a better offerover here and I'm going to take
(05:50):
that one, but you have it's atwo-way thing.
And just because they make it,they don't hold all the cards.
You know, you hold some cardstoo.
So you have a decision to makeyou talked about.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You were talking reflecting on your performance.
Uh, after the interview, talkabout that for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
If I come out of an interview and say, yeah, I was
dressed for success, I kind ofexuded positive attitude and I
addressed everybody politely.
By the way, the gatekeeper isin a process.
When you go into an interview,be nice to the gatekeepers.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Because they can sink you.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And if you don't believe that, then you'll learn
eventually.
But they can sink you and theywill sink you.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That might be the most important thing that's said
in this episode.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, no, stay in the game was the most important
thing, but that's, that's rightup there, I guess.
But that's, that's right upthere, I guess.
But I don't know.
I, I just you just kind of havea a good um feeling, because I
didn't receive any, any negativefeedback from any of the
answers that I gave, other thanmy word choice in describing a
hostile environment as hostile.
You know, I don't know, I don'tknow, or she would have
(06:57):
preferred, maybe she, shepreferred that I would have said
challenging, a superchallenging environment.
Maybe soften it a little bit.
There's always something you canlearn, but in the end it's kind
of also can't take it back.
Some of the stuff is like super, super nitpicky.
I didn't hear.
Well, you didn't know this.
You stumbled on this answer,bob, I didn't stumble on
anything.
(07:18):
Yeah, you know, and I know howto answer the the question in
depth.
If they have any follow-upquestion you, how far down the
rabbit hole do you want to go?
Because I think I know thestuff better than you do.
Now, of course you don't saythat or you shouldn't exude that
, they shouldn't get theimpression that you feel that
way.
But when you really know yourstuff and you answer the
(07:39):
questions well, and you can goas far in depth as they want to.
I think you can say that youpretty much knocked it apart and
read the non-verbals in theroom.
You know, some people are hardto read.
They'll sit there and theywon't change their expression.
Some people, as you're talking,they'll be nodding their head
and smiling and go yeah, youknow, I I thought that one time,
if you get that, that's, andwhen you get those kind of cues
(08:07):
which I did get, um, you knowthose, those are good things and
so you can kind of evaluateyour own performance.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
But you never know until you get the feedback and
you you always have theopportunity to improve something
, no matter what the other thingis uh, going along those lines
is uh, how do you stay positivewhen you come out of a a
situation and you don't getpromoted?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
yeah, and that's staying positive, is staying in
the game.
And if you're not going to staypositive, if you know everybody
experiences disappointment inthe process, so that's what you
feel.
But how you respond is up toyou.
And if you're going to respondin a negative way or, you know,
twist off on somebody, tell themwhat an idiot they are for not
(08:51):
hiring you or go out of thatroom when you get your rejection
, go out and bad mouth if you'repart of the company.
You go out, you bad mouth, youknow people who are in there,
you know you're just not doingthe right things and I would say
in that case they made a gooddecision not to give you the
offer.
You're not ready exactly you'renot ready, yeah, if you, if you
(09:14):
, if you can't stay in the gamelike, if you can't get out of
your own way, you're not ready.
You know, for whatever job theywere just giving you, you
wouldn't be my leading candidateif somebody did that.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
It's okay to be upset , it's natural.
I mean you're disappointed,you're upset.
Maybe even give yourself 30minutes at lunch just to sit in
the car and pound the steeringwheel and you know whatever, but
make sure no one else sees that.
(09:50):
Or you do it with someone whoyou really trust, like your wife
or your husband or whoever agood friend give.
It's a natural reaction, let itout, don't try to bottle it up.
But then, after the 30 minutesis up and this is part of your
playbook maybe is okay, nowwe're done, done.
(10:10):
You got all that out of yoursystem.
We're good.
Okay, we're good, all right.
Yeah, pat them on the bottomand say, okay, get back in the
game yeah, I think yes what doyou think about that?
but?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
but I think, I think you know your human reaction.
You know um, disappointment,you know being angry or
something, that those are allnatural kind of feelings.
But are you going to allow yourfeelings to interfere with your
success?
And if you, I think I thinkit's natural to kind of give
that a little room, kind of workit out of your system or
whatever.
(10:45):
But man don't give it much play,I think you don't really manage
the amount of time you know andyou got to get focused on why
you didn't do well and thinkabout how you're going to course
.
Correct is 30 minutes or a week.
(11:09):
Whatever you know, whateveryour strategy is, you can never
allow whoever you're engagedwith to see that you know you
have, you have to come off, youhave to present the polished
person that you are.
you know, if you it's kind oflike, you know, when somebody
really kicks you off, you knowand you want to really work it
out, and you write an email, youknow, just go in there and put
(11:30):
everything in there and tellthem what a jerk they are, you
know, and then now you've gotthat out of your system.
Now let's sit down and let'srewrite that email and let's you
know.
but it's kind of like the rearview mirror, kind of little
anecdote.
(11:51):
It's like the rear view mirroris very small and the windshield
is very large, and that's agood representation of how much
time you need to spend lookingback versus looking forward.
So it's natural to bedisappointed, but I would say,
give that as little play in yourhead space as you possibly can
(12:14):
and get focused on what you needto be focused on, which is
responding in a positive way andcontinuing to sell yourself and
keep yourself in the game.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
That's keeping yourself in the game.
Yeah, that's keeping yourself inthe game.
Yeah, you mentioned last weekabout additional training
Toastmasters, things like that.
You might find in your feedbacksession with a trusted advisor,
mentor, whoever that you needsome additional training in
(12:46):
certain areas, and that's got tobe okay, I guess.
I mean, you want to know thatand you need to invest in
yourself.
I think and if that's what'sholding me back if I don't know
Excel very well, or if I don'tknow how to handle conflict
resolution, or I don't know howto speak well like I'm doing
(13:10):
right now it's important thatseek out additional training to
shore up your shortcomings thatprocess never ends.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
you should always be looking for opportunities.
There's always something youcan improve you can always be
done and you can always do itbetter.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Network internally.
What's that all about?
So you don't get promoted.
So what do you do?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
you network internally if you're
interviewing for a jobinternally in your company,
that's awesome because you haveaccess to the company directory,
you know the people and um, youshould take full advantage of
that, and this is reallypre-work.
If you think you're going to beinterested in promotion, don't
wait until or or if you'reinterested in a position that
(14:04):
that comes open.
From time to time, you have anidea where you want to work.
So get to know those people.
Get to know them and makefriends with them.
Help them in any way that youcan.
Set up time and go have coffeewith them.
Don't waste their time.
Find out what kind of thingsare going well for them, what
kinds of things aren't goingwell in their area how you might
(14:26):
be able to help them.
How you might be able to helpYep and those kinds of things,
because you're, you're buildingalliances and friendships in the
process.
I was reading something theother day and and it wasn't on
this topic, but I think his, hisobservation and study applies
(14:46):
here, and that is, whether youthink it's good or bad.
Emotional resonance is morepowerful than truth.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
What's emotional resonance?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
My ability, your ability to emotionally relate to
somebody and build arelationship and good rapport,
is more important than your factor your skill level.
Maybe even the point of thatthing was you would think that
facts for people would be morecompelling than an emotional
(15:23):
argument, and with people that'sactually not the case.
Emotional resonance is morecompelling than fact.
And so in the context of aninterview and building a network
, that emotional resonance whenyou go into the interview and
(15:44):
I'm looking at you and I've hadcoffee with you six times over
the past 18 months and I'vedeveloped a relationship with
you and a friendship with youthose kind of things are kind of
like uh, powerful emotionalconnections with somebody and,
when it comes down to people ofsimilar talent and skill level,
(16:07):
you're going to get the nod ifyou have that kind of because
they they know you're a knownquantity to them.
They already know that you're aculture.
They're not taking any risk byknowing that.
They don't know exactly howyou're going to interact with
the team.
They know that you're not goingto wear your emotions on your
sleeve.
They know that you're going tobe level-headed and methodical
and you care about the companyand you're not just focused on
(16:28):
yourself and everything.
You're there to help them andother people succeed as well.
You're just an excellent teamplayer, and who doesn't want
that?
Everybody wants that, so ifthey already know that about you
, the risk of your candidacyjust went way down.
Now it's all about do you havethe job skill?
Your candidacy just went waydown.
Now it's all about do you havethe job skill.
(16:48):
And it may be that your jobskill is slightly less than
somebody else, but the otherperson doesn't seem to be as as
good of a culture fit, and so,again, you know, the weight goes
to the person who's made thoseconnections, who has done all
the pregame work to besuccessful that just goes.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
So that goes to the getting the job portion.
But why a network if you didn'tget the promotion, why do you
continue the network?
Why?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
why don't I just stay in the game if you know you
don't want to interview anymore.
If you know you don't have anyinterest, then stop.
And if that's the case, youneed to go find yourself another
department, another company orsomething like that.
But if you're thinking, if asimilar job comes up in the
future, do you still want it?
Would you want it?
Nine out of 10 are going to geta rejection, so you got to
(17:43):
decide in advance.
If you want to be successful,how are you going to react if
you're not one of those people?
And just, in a way, it's kindof a numbers game.
But there's things you candefinitely do to improve your
odds and get started about doingit.
And if you're not willing to dothose things, then again you're
not the right person for thejob.
When it comes up again, you'renot the right person for the job
(18:03):
.
When it comes up again, you'rejust not.
So if it's something that'simportant to you, if it's
something that you want, don'tbe viciously mediocre, you know,
get on with it.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I posted that video at the bottom of the show notes
from last week's episode abouthow to get promoted.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, that's such a motivational thing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So you should continue to perform well after
you don't get the job.
Uh, people shouldn't be able tosee even a hiccup in your
performance.
There should not be a blip inthe.
Uh.
The ekg on the radar it's youknow.
It once again is a testament toyour maturity and your skill
(18:47):
level and your foresight.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah forget about what everybody else is saying
about you.
What is your commitment toquality?
What does your brand mean toyou?
It's got to be more than whatsomebody else thinks.
It's got to be what you thinkabout your brand versus about
what what anybody else saysabout you.
Do you have a strong brand?
Build your brand.
I remember it went in thatinterview, by the way, with the,
(19:12):
with the lady who didn't likemy choice of words, um,
describing it to the environmentas hostile.
Um, after the interview, Ifound out, uh, you know who who
was successful and the guy whogot the interview.
I found out, uh, you know whowho was successful and the guy
who got the job uh, I know, Iknew and I agreed that he would
(19:33):
be a good fit for the role I did.
I'm not mad at him, you know,for you know, succeeding in the
process, um, you know he, justthey, they chose him and I
respected that decision.
And you know I still wrote they, they chose him and I respected
that decision.
And you know I still wrote myletter of thanks to those people
.
I did before I found out whatwas going on.
But then, when I found out, youknow that this guy who I know
(19:56):
won't mention his name, butlet's call him Mike.
When I found out that Mike gotthe job over me, I sent Mike a
note and I said hey.
I was also interviewing for thisjob.
You got the job and I offer mycongratulations.
I think you're very deservingand a great fit for your new
(20:21):
role and if there's anything Ican ever do to help you be
successful, reach out and let meknow.
That was it.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Now you're in the 0.00001% Because no one is going
to do that.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, that's a good move, andyou know.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
So I had, I had a good relationship with that guy
and it was a strong relationshipuntil I retired.
I quit, I just decided that Ireally didn't want to be in that
environment for a number ofreasons, and so I decided not to
pursue those kind ofopportunities and I could have
(21:01):
let's talk about that for asecond considering other
opportunities.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
let's talk about that for a second.
Considering other opportunitiesmaybe you should consider some
other opportunities.
If you keep getting turned downfor a position or positions, uh
, maybe, uh, is it a good thingto consider lateral moves or
actually moving to anotherdepartment or jump ship and go
to another company?
If, if, what you're doing andjust just make sure you're doing
(21:29):
it all right and it's notbecause of you, but if you're
doing everything right, shouldyou?
Is it a show of weakness or notstaying in the game If you
start looking for a lateral move, another department or actually
moving to another company?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
If you're continually trying to get a position and
time after time after time,you're getting rejected for the
interview or you're gettingrejected for the job, let's say
something's probably off.
You've got a blind side, mostlikely that you don't see, and
so I think it'd be time for somehonest self-assessment.
(22:09):
And boy, it's hard to findsomebody who'll be honest with
you because they're afraidyou're going to get mad or it's.
It's just hard, like you saidearlier, to give people feedback
.
So you really want to findsomebody who is a good leader,
because a good leader will giveyou good feedback, you know, and
so I think you really shouldpursue that.
(22:30):
But it may be that you're justnot a good fit.
You know.
It's not a good culture fit.
It could be that too, you know.
So you gotta, you gottaconsider all those things.
But something probably, um, butmore than likely, there's
something that you don't seeabout you and your fit and how
you're preparing or notpreparing, whatever.
There's something in there thatyou may be blindsided by.
(22:53):
So when you try to do an honestself-assessment, you may be
continually looking over becauseyou don't see it.
By definition, it's a blindspot.
So you've got to find somebodywho's going to be honest with
you and let you know what thosethings are.
Yeah, I think, if you do thosethings, I think your odds of
success go way up and you becomeyou actually become a better
(23:17):
employee because you're you areperforming at a level, hopefully
, that is ready for the nextlevel, and your attitude is good
and you're a team player andyou're just attractive in all
those ways to a company in avery competitive environment
(23:39):
that needs a good team.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So if you can be that person, you're going to get
your opportunity and promotionstake time and you go through
interviews and whatnot and youget turned down.
And I know I was talking toJordan Roberts about this.
I interviewed her on the showshe's our store manager and she
(24:03):
was talking about how she hadbeen turned down, like all of us
have, for positions that shewas wanting, and so she just
made up her mind that the nexttime I get interviewed, the next
time a promotion or opportunitycomes up, there is absolutely
no way that they can't or can'tnot hire me or however.
(24:26):
However, however, you would saythat that there's no way that
I'm not going to be the personI'm going to.
I'm firing on all eight and I'min that.
So that means from now untilthe next opportunity, which you
don't know when that's going tobe.
It could be three months fromnow, four months from now or
next week, you don't know.
But okay, so I's going to be.
(24:47):
It could be three months fromnow, four months from now or
next week, you don't know, butOK, so I'm going to be positive,
I'm going to.
You know good networking skills.
I'm going to continue to gettrained, all that stuff you know
just.
And so when that time comes upand there's another opportunity
and you throw in for it.
Opportunity and you throw infor it is like there's no way
(25:11):
I'm not going to hire thisperson because they are just
stack the odds in your favor.
Listen to this podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Listen to it every day some people just have a kind
of like you can look at.
They just have a charmedexistence and they just zoom
straight to the top.
Chances are they do all the allthe um, the right things.
Well, um, and that's the reasonwhy they've gone to the top.
(25:36):
There's naturally good at, theyprobably made a study of it and
they just they're an, a player.
You know, before the other 99of us, like jordan, um, we all
have had disappointments in theprocess.
You can talk to somebody who isa manager.
They're a manager, they're anexecutive, whatever, whatever
level.
All of those people I mean youcan pretty easily say all those
(25:59):
people have tried to get a jobat one time or another and
didn't get it, or were laid offat some time in their career and
and now they've made it, and soevery one of those people can
tell you about rejection and howthey didn't get a position that
they hit energy for.
Yet here they are, they're amanager, they're a director,
they're an executive director,they're their vp, and if they
(26:23):
can do it, they experience thesame thing and you can do it too
.
And so let that beencouragement to you that all
those people to be successful,be successful.
You just have to be persistentand you just have to stay in the
game and you just have to beconstantly improving your game.
That's all there is to it yeah,there's no short of those
things you're going to wind up.
You know everybody's cut out tobe, you know, a top executive
(26:44):
kind of person, or wants to beor wants to be, but everybody
wants to be good at what they do.
I think it's those who reallytry.
You may not have the stuff tobe the absolute best software
engineer, but you can be areally darn good one.
You never stop trying toimprove your own game in what
(27:08):
you do so that you can be thebest you can be.
It may not be the very topperson, but you never know until
you try.
You'll never know how good youcan be at something and you'll
never maximize your ownpotential until you start doing
some of these things right and Ithink a successful career can
be built on that.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Well, that was a good discussion what to do when you
don't get the promotion.
If you have any questions,comments, concerns regarding
this topic, this discussion,send them to scotttownsendinfo
(27:50):
info.
Uh, you know, leave a review,subscribe like, share this
interview with uh, maybe you'vegot kids, college kids college
friends, people that are in thejob market, and you know, or not
, even kids, I mean heck,anybody.
If you're in the marketplace,um, this episode's for you
because you're going to needthis episode at some point.
So, anyway, last few words,turn it over to you.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
These are just some of my things I've learned from
being in the trenches on bothsides of the equation, so people
may find there are other thingsyou know in this process that
somebody could speak to, basedon a different experience.
So this is just mine.
If it's helpful, that's great.
If you don't find it helpful,that's fine too.
This is just my experience andmy experience is different than
other people's.
(28:36):
But I enjoyed the discussion.
I think it's good questions,good discussion.
I do think there's things thatpeople can learn from people who
have been through it before.
Whether they've, you know,succeeded or failed, there's
always something to learn.
So hopefully this, thisdiscussion, will be that right,
that's it okay.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well, for ben townsend.
This is scott townsend.
Thanks for watching, listeningto the scott townsend show.
Have a great day.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Everything's gonna be all right and we'll talk to you
(29:25):
later.
The Scott Townsend Show is aDietz-O-Man production.
For more episodes, visit theScott Townsend Show YouTube
channel, listen on ApplePodcasts or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows you.
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