September 9, 2025 • 50 mins
Ben and Scott discuss whether it's time for Mike Gundy to step down as Oklahoma State's head football coach after the team's devastating loss to Oregon.
• Gundy transformed OSU from an afterthought into a nationally respected program with 15 Top 25 finishes
• Last season was Gundy's worst as head coach with only three wins
• The Oregon game exposed fundamental issues with coaching, discipline, and player development
• OSU's performance compared to Oklahoma shows a significant gap despite more coaching changes at OU
• Like Kodak's failure to adapt to digital photography, Gundy may be unable to take the program to the next level
• The best path forward would be for Gundy to resign gracefully to preserve his legacy while allowing fresh leadership
• A leadership change would likely improve recruiting and revitalize the program with new energy and innovation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What I'm not doing as an OSU fan and a fan of Mike
Gundy, is running Mike Gundydown.
I think everybody should bevery appreciative of what he did
for the program but, just likethe guy who wrote the book, what
got you here is not going toget you there the failure to
adapt.
Somebody has a good run.
(00:22):
They build a program to acertain point, but can they take
it to that next step?
And I think that the answer forGundy is no, he can't.
No, he can't.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought to you by
Dietzelman Productions.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
So, hey, welcome back to the Scott Townsend Show show
.
This is scott, and I'm joinedby good friend, little brother,
executive producer, all-around,great guy, sweet ben, townsend
ben, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
not much, just uh doing a little research on stuff
this morning and, um, just kindof going pouring over some news
, financial news and stuff.
So what'd?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
you have for breakfast, this morning coffee I
know I've been doingintermittent fasting too, and
right now I'm so hungry.
Oh my gosh, see, I don't gethungry anymore, you don't?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
No, I guess I've been doing this now for probably
about I don't know maybe eightweeks or something.
Oh yeah, longer than me, but Inever really did, oh man, I just
spilled coffee all over theplace.
I never really did get hungry.
Yeah.
I mean not really.
And the longer I go with it,the less I get hungry with it.
(01:47):
I mean not really.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
And the longer I go with it, the less I have an
issue Right now if I pass out.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
It's just low blood sugar.
Well, I got to say you lookgood.
I mean you've slimmed down alittle bit.
Not that you looked bad before,but you look good.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
I appreciate that.
Yeah, there's a picture of youand Janet that you sent on your
anniversary and I was like manBen's really cutting it down man
.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, and it's things like you know.
It's things like you knowcertain things in my diet.
Like man, I love bread, I justdo and uh, but it doesn't love
me back you know and, um, youknow, eating bread and stuff and
anything that's like.
You know anything with grains init.
It's just something I'mlimiting and it's not faddish
(02:31):
for me.
I don't care about that stuff.
It used to kind of like, that'skind of like.
Oh, brother, you know, I hearpeople talk about gluten-free
stuff.
But it's real.
Janice, very gluten sensitiveshe, I mean, that's super real
for her and right, you know, asI've kind of learned more about
I've realized that I I have alittle bit of sensitivity to
gluten also.
Oh yeah, so I'm just makingchanges, you know, a few changes
to, uh, remove that so there'sbread you can buy that's more
(02:52):
seed based and it is different,yes, um, but it's not, it's not
something that I have to have.
You know the regular bread,grain-made bread from wheat and
stuff.
So I made that substitution atSwitch.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
We have some of that grain bread.
You know it's kind of hard.
It's harder bread.
You know it's a little stiffer.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
The sprouted grain bread.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Yeah, and I told Celeste the other day.
I said man, I just want someWonder Bread.
I want some Mrs.
Baird's, I know, yeah, left theother day I said, man, I just
want some wonder bread, I wantsome mrs, I know, I know, yeah,
I want a good old soft bleach,white bleach, flour, you know,
uh, peanut butter and jellysandwich but you know, there we
are, you know I guess I could dothat like every once in a while
(03:40):
.
But yeah, knowing how it's notthat great for you, it's easy to
steer away from it.
But yeah, I don't know, I mightbreak down, just keep a loaf
handy and whatever.
But anyway.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay, put some glass in case of emergency break glass
kind of thing yeah, break outthe miss bairds.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
Yeah yeah, miss Baird's bread Used to get that
at the Piglet Wiggly back in theday, back in Waco, texas.
So what's on your mind, sweetBen?
You got your OSU shirt on.
I should have worn an OSU shirttoday.
We're talking.
What are we talking about?
I?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
think we need to talk about OSU.
What's irritating you?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
We need to talk about it.
What's the itch you want toscratch today?
Did you watch the game?
No, this last weekend.
Bring everybody up to speed forthose who might not, for that
one or two people out there thatmight not know what we're
getting ready to talk about twopeople out there that might not
(04:48):
know what we're getting ready totalk about.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, so so on Saturday I think they kicked off
around 245.
Oklahoma State played Oregon.
Of course Oklahoma, and listen,I I've kind of been out of um
professional football, like alltogether and really most sports.
I've just been focused on doingother things.
I have followed the Cowboys inprior seasons Last season just
too busy with stuff going on inour personal lives with Janet's
(05:13):
recovery from all her cancerstuff, it just was lower
priority.
But they had an abysmal seasonlast year.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Yeah, 2024,.
Was that their worst season, or?
One of the worst seasonsthey've had in a long time.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I think it's Gundy's worst season yeah, gundy's worst
season yeah.
So you know they had a badseason last year and it was, I
guess, seeing that, I wassurprised how fast and how far
they fell from the prior season,because I think in 2023, I
(05:51):
wrote down some numbers, I thinkthey end the season 2023 ranked
number 18.
You know what I mean?
That's pretty good.
And then they have a seasonwhere they just like drop off
the cliff and they had you cliffand they managed to win three
games.
I think, yeah, three games.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Wow, only three games .
So how can you go that?
Far that fast?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, that's a good question, and I don't know,
because I didn't watch thosegames.
I would catch some of themevery once in a while, but I
just didn't stick with it enoughto really be able to speak
authoritatively about whathappened there other than kind
of the big picture view thatI've had for, um, you know,
probably at least 12 years, I'llsay 12 years longer yeah, um,
(06:39):
and you know it's just, it'sjust kind of uh to me like I
remember going to Oklahoma State.
We went there the same year.
You had your first year at KUand I was one year behind you
and I went to OSU for my firstyear.
So my first year there youtransferred in.
We were there at the same time.
Right, that was 1983, fall of1983.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Back in the Jimmy, was it Jimmy Jones?
And?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Jimmy Johnson.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Jimmy Johnson and uh Pat, pat, pat Pat.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Well, he came later, but he was a defensive
coordinator.
Pat Jones, pat Jones.
Yes, yeah, that's right, I'dforgotten about Pat Jones.
I like Pat Jones.
I like Jimmy Johnson too.
Um, and I remember JimmyJohnson too.
Those were back in the.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Barry Sanders days.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah, and before him Thurman Thomas.
Thurman Thomas yeah, I remembergoing to Oklahoma State and
knowing that Thurman Thomas wasa good back, I remember going up
there and watching him downthere on the field running
around like God.
It was just amazing.
He went on to the Buffalo Billsand I think he set buffalo
bills rushing records which Ithink may have it may have been
(07:51):
broken like that.
That.
What last night?
That that game, the, thebuffalo bills and, uh, the
ravens, baltimore ravens thatwas a wild game, fun game to
watch.
Huh, that was two teams thathad no give up in them anywhere
and it was two heavyweights justbrawling to the end Just
(08:11):
slugging it out.
Yeah, and the Bills kind oflike trailed for most of the
game.
And really just watching thegame I'm like, well, the Ravens
have the upper hand here.
I mean, they just look a littlebit better.
And what's the running back'sname?
from alabama um sorry, I can'thelp you there oh gosh, uh,
(08:33):
anyway, uh, anybody watchingthis is going to scream at the
camera.
Right now come on you gottaderrick.
What huh?
Derrick, henry, derrick, henry,that guy is a stud and and, and
he's not only big and strongerthan everybody else, he's also
fast and he can put distancebetween himself and somebody who
(08:56):
has a safety, who has blazingspeed, and that's why they're
back there in a cornerback orsafety position.
He can create space betweenthose guys in just a foot race,
70 yards to the goal line, andstiff-armed guys just make them
look foolish as they try totackle him.
The guys, they stud, and he didhave a critical fumble towards
(09:18):
the end of that game.
Anyway, this isn't about thatgame, but we were talking about
Thurman Thomas, and so I thinkThurman Thomas record may have
been beat last night in likewhatever the stat was that they
were showing on the screen, um,but Thurman Thomas to run around
.
Then I remember Barry Sandersshowed up and he was running
kickoff returns and stuff, andThurman Thomas was still, you
(09:39):
know, in the backfield and, as Irecall, and and Barry Sanders
was, you know, running kickoffreturns.
Yeah, he's, like you know,running through everybody and
like scoring touchdowns things.
Oh, wow, you know, andeverybody's like, well, barry
sanders, like you know, it'samazing running back.
He may be even better thanthurman thomas.
I'm like well, how is that evenpossible?
You know, because thurmanthomas was a heisman candidate
(10:02):
and, uh, recognized one of theone of the best, if not the best
, running back in the country.
Right, and here we have barrysanders who looked just, I mean,
no shade on him, I mean helooked every bit as good as
barry sanders, just kind of headscratcher.
Well, it turns out we just hadthis really rare thing forming
up yeah, where you have thesetwo heisman quality backs
showing up at a school likeoklahoma state right, you know
(10:25):
lightning striking twice, yeahyeah, exactly, and so those kind
of things are rare, you know,and but they're great when they
happen and we were there towatch all that.
But along with that so greatalong with that, I remember
watching uh gundy, mike gundy,at quarterback.
You, you know quarterbackplaying out there and uh, and he
did a great job, very, verygood.
(10:46):
Um, you know he, uh, he had alot of will to win and he, you
know, was a very successfulquarterback at Oklahoma state.
I mean the whole team was wasreally good back then.
I remember you guys that kindof wrote about a lot in the old
college like Igo and Segelski,offensive linemen.
You had Leslie O'Neill, leslieO'Neill Just a bunch of guys
(11:15):
like that.
Leslie went on to play.
I think he played for theChargers, I'm not sure I think
it was the Chargers.
Then he went on to maybe acouple other teams before he
retired, but he was like anincredible talent also.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
It was a golden.
Those were some golden years.
I mean, we were there towitness it.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, it really was, it was great.
But so I remember all that andI remember, you know, thinking
about those guys and wow aboutthose guys, and wow, you know
that the these guys are amazing.
And then when mike gundy camein to osu, I think in 2003 or 4,
as the head coach, you know Iwant, I remember thinking I
wonder if he can like kind ofparlay his, his success as a
(11:57):
quarterback into a head coach,right?
You know head coaching position, yeah, and kind of?
can he?
Can he, you know, succeed?
You know at that level as ahead coach for oklahoma state,
that that he did as a player,quarterback, key position, hands
on the ball, every singlepossession.
You know for oklahoma statewhen he was playing.
(12:18):
You know back in the day in thein the early to mid 80s.
And I think the answer to thatquestion is yes, yes, he, he was
able to come in and, you know,take the, the cowboys kind of to
to a new um level ofperformance right it took.
It took a little while, you know.
(12:40):
I was looking at the um, I waslooking at the ap rankings for
osu.
So I was doing, I did someresearch on that this morning,
looking at the AP rankings forOSU.
I did some research on thatthis morning.
I was looking at it.
I don't think they were rankedat the end of the season 2004,
through 2008,.
Through 2007, but then in 2008,I think they were ranked number
10, finishing the season number10, and then the next year 7
(13:06):
and the next year 11 and thenext year 16.
So that's those.
Those are strong numbers,strong performances.
So he's, you know, he has thisthing where he's like, you know,
building this program.
When you do great things likethat, you know you, you get um,
you get better recruitingclasses because people want to
come and participate, peoplewant to donate.
(13:27):
People want to donate yep andboone pickens, most notably.
So you know there were someothers as well, um, but you know
, he, he, um, he did a lot forthe program and and he took it
to a higher level.
But you know, it's kind ofwatching their, their
performance, you know, and andthey had some teams in there
(13:49):
when they they should have been,and so so I I've been kind of
comparing them to oh you, okay,there's all kinds and I'm not,
I'm not steven a smith here, youknow, I'm just I'm just ben,
you know, and I'm I'm kind ofgoing back on my own
recollection and my time thereand my kind of my status as a as
a fan over the years and but Iremember you know it was like
(14:16):
probably around 2012 they had Iforget what year it was, but I
think they went in to norman.
I can't remember which year itwas, but they, I think they went
in to Norman.
I can't remember which year itwas, but they went into Norman
with a great team and OU was sobeat up at the time.
They had a very good team too,but they were plagued with
injuries and they had a lot oftheir stars on the sidelines,
(14:39):
couldn't play and OU was hurtingso bad to have people out there
who could really compete at ahigh level Not that they weren't
, they shouldn't have the in thering experience yet.
I joke with people and say theywere practically calling
students down out of the standsto put on a uniform and get on
(15:00):
the offensive line.
The guy playing tuba, hey, comedown here and put on a uniform.
Um, but osu went in and theyshould have won that game and
they and they got beat.
And I'm like, okay, if you goback and look at the history of
ou osu.
Ou definitely has the upperhand in ou osu games it's always
(15:20):
so discouraging.
It's a heartbreaker for osu fans, but you got to hand it to ou.
Really, yeah, I mean, uh, youcan, people can hate on them if
they want, but I think there'sthere's a lesson to be learned
from how ou puts togetherconsistently winning teams and
how, in a bedlam series you knowwithin the state of oklahoma,
(15:41):
you know how they can they canconsistently come out on top.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
I know it was always so depressing when OU would come
to Stillwater because you wantto win so bad, but you know it's
not going to happen.
It didn't for the longest time,it seems like, and we had a few
wins, but yeah, it was kind ofdemoralizing.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I remember one year, and I think this was maybe my
junior year I remember we wereplaying OU in Stillwater.
We had good seats at this game.
We were on the 40-yard line,halfway up.
We had a great team.
And we were like on the 40 yardline, halfway up and we we had
(16:26):
a great team and we were beatingoh you.
You know, it's like all right,you know we're going to beat oh
you this year.
You know, so late in the gamewe were up by like four or five
points, something I don'tremember exactly score,
something like that and therewas um, I think ohU had tried to
go down and score and theycouldn't score.
(16:49):
Our defense stopped them greatdefense and so OU was kicking
off.
Let's see, no, no, actuallythey had scored, they had scored
and they were kicking off, butwe were still ahead like four or
five points or something.
And so OU kicked off and theydid the squib kick thing and it
(17:14):
hit one of our players rightthere in the helmet standing 15
yards away and it bouncedstraight back into the arms of
Scott Case I believe it wasscott case, for, oh, you used to
as a defensive player, but hewas, you know um, so they were
kicking off so it made sensethat he was on that team, yeah,
but he, he got the ball and now,oh, all of a sudden, oh, you
(17:38):
had another possession and theywound up going down and scoring.
I can't remember, was a fieldgoal, now, or or a touchdown?
I don't remember if it was afield goal now or a touchdown, I
don't remember what it was, butwhatever score it was, it was
enough to win the game at thelast second.
I mean there was seconds on theclock.
I mean just enough time to runyour three or four possessions
to get down in position to score.
(17:59):
And they scored.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Nothing looks worse than having a football bounce
off your helmet.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That was so demoralizing.
It was.
It was embarrassing.
I think it's probably how maybenot even as severe, but how the
Ravens fans felt last nightafter playing such great
smash-mouth football and reallynot making that many mistakes,
just had that one key fumble byone of their key players.
(18:26):
And you know, you lead the gamethe whole time, you feel
certain you have victory rightthere in your season opener
against a very good Bills team,and then all of a sudden they
come from behind and just kindof pull and so anyway, I
remember it leaving just likecompletely demoralized.
So it was.
You know those kind of thosethings over the years I think
(18:47):
OSU fans kind of have to dealwith.
There's this kind of psychology.
I think that runs deep in OSUathletics, aside from the
student body and things.
I think it's a generationalpsychological challenge.
You know that is kind of builtup against beating OU and you
know, and OU's just had betterteams.
(19:08):
So I think you've got to lookat programs like OU and others
to say, okay, they're doingsomething, they're consistently
creating better results.
How are they doing that?
You know, and so I was lookingat, you know, some of these
stats and this is just my own,so I was just researching this
stuff.
Today.
I'm looking at the number inthe Gundy era.
(19:30):
So I think he took over theteam in 2004,.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
I think 2004, 2005, something like that.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, and so in that time they've had 15.
Top 25 finishes, which ispretty good, and they'll tell
you.
During that time you would hearstats like yeah, gundy is the
winningest coach in collegefootball today.
During that time it was true,but part of that has to do with
(20:01):
his tenure.
If you look at OU, ou has had17 top 25 finishes for the
season versus OSU's 18.
And you dig into that a littlebit further and you look at
where they finished.
Not only did OU finish in thetop 25 more times than OSU did,
(20:22):
they also finished higher inthose rankings on average.
So I just averaged it out andthis is AP and I came up with
they had an average ranking ofthose 17 top 25 finishes of 7.5,
7.5, you know.
So they were, they were in thetop 10 for sure.
And I looked at the same thingfor osu and they and they didn't
(20:44):
have as many finishes.
So this is of a smallerpopulation, but they, they had
basically 13, they finished 13basically, which still, you know
, isn't that?
I mean, a lot of schools wouldlove to have an average top 25
finish of 13, right?
But I'm not talking aboutaverage, I'm talking about a
school and a student body thatwants to win, you know and what
(21:07):
and comparing it to the othernotable program in the state of
Oklahoma.
And so if you add in a zero ormore than top 25 finishes to
kind of match OU's 17, you haveto pull in seasons where OSU
finished maybe at number 35 ornumber 40.
(21:28):
Their average ranking wouldprobably go up to about you know
, 16 or 17.
So so ou's average finish inthe top 25, I'm going to say
we'll just say it's 50 is 50,better it's twice as good as
osu's finish.
Having said that, so that that'smy.
(21:49):
That was just kind of like well, I looked at on my spreadsheet
real quick.
But having said that, I thatwas just kind of like well, I
looked at it on my spreadsheetreal quick.
But having said that, I waswriting down some other stuff.
Let's see.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
So you're looking through that, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Okay.
So during the Gundy era, eventhough OU has had such great
programs and they've done suchgreat things, I feel like you're
building a case here,potentially.
OSU has had one coach, coachGundy.
Ou has had three coaches duringthat time, even though they've
(22:29):
consistently put up much betternumbers than OSU.
It started out with Stoops andthen Lincoln Riley and now Brent
Bennebould, who I don't know awhole lot about, but I do know
that Oklahoma still has a prettygood, pretty strong program.
So I've gone through threecoaches in the time that
Oklahoma State has just kind ofstuck with Mike Gundy, and over
(22:55):
the years I just kind of feellike you know, there's a story,
there's something you want tosay before I go on, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
So, yeah, it seems like there's this philosophy of
dance with the one that brungyou Kind of, and they've stuck
with Gandhi for all these years,you know, and there's something
to be said for loyalty, if it'sdeserved, if it's earned
Respect.
And he has a lot of respect forGandhi, no doubt about it.
(23:29):
But there's this big controversythat's brewing and has been
brewing.
The storm clouds have beengetting darker late and then
after this last weekend, it'slike everybody's like okay, it's
time to call it and there's abig controversy.
Fans, there's people who wanthim to stay, people who want him
(23:56):
to go um, and they're justreally kind of irritated.
Right now, not kind of, theyare irritated I gotta say I was
irritated.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, I was laying in bed.
I went to bed because, you know, um, I stayed up a little bit
after the game, just kind oflike thinking about the game,
and janet went to bed before Ido.
She turned out the lights.
I went in there, I got in bedand turn off the light.
We're both laying in bed, youknow, just kind of staring at
the ceiling.
And then I started.
I started talking about the osugame, like I'm like you know
(24:26):
it's, it's like, it's like andthis is in the dark.
You know she's trying to go tosleep.
Yeah, I said I just started.
I said you know this is andthis is in the dark.
You know she's trying to go tosleep.
Yeah, I just started.
I said you know, this is likeJanet's got a she drives a
4Runner right now and reallyliked that car.
I said it's like taking your4Runner and you start throwing
money at it because you're goingto enter your 4Runner in the
(24:48):
Indianapolis 500 race,forerunner in the the
indianapolis 500 race, andyou're going to put more money
into that forerunner thananybody puts into other these
fancy race cars and you're goingto go out there and try to win
this race in your souped upforerunner, and it doesn't
matter how much money you pourinto it, it doesn't matter how
much time, what kind of trickyengine engineering you do, it
doesn't matter.
(25:08):
You're never going to win thatrace in a forerunner ever, and I
kind of feel like that's wherewe are with gundy you know,
there's a yeah, I mean he andand it and.
So what I?
What I'm not doing as an osufan and a fan of Mike Gundy, is
(25:30):
running Mike Gundy down.
I think everybody should bevery appreciative of what he did
for the program but, just likethe guy who wrote the book, what
got you here is not going toget you there Right.
You know the, the failure toadapt.
You know, uh, somebody you knowhas a good run.
They build a program to acertain point, but can they take
(25:59):
it to that next step?
And I think that the answer forgundy is no, he can't.
No, he can't.
And so the longer he he staysthere, you know, the more damage
he's doing to the program.
Last year is a good example.
The oregon game is a greatexample.
Like they haven't been beatthat bad since Oklahoma became a
state 1907, something like that, yeah 118 years ago.
(26:22):
Yeah, think about that.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Yeah, that's not something you want on your
resume.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
no, and so if you're a top flight talent, whether
coming out of high school orsomebody looking to move from
one college to another, how manyof those people are going to
want to go to Oklahoma?
Speaker 4 (26:38):
State.
There's something to be saidfor knowing when to step aside,
knowing when to bow out 100%,knowing when to bow out um 100,
knowing when to go out.
And hopefully, everybody wantsto go out on top, but
(26:59):
unfortunately, some people thinkthat the top is still yet to
come.
And you know, you think ofjerry seinfeld.
His tv show was going supergreat, super great.
And then he just says you knowwhat?
This, we're done, I want to goout on top.
We have the best ratings, wehave everything.
Why wait for this?
(27:19):
Why wait for the wheels to falloff and then go?
Well, yeah, I guess we need togo.
So it's unfortunate though thatsometimes people and I'm not
saying he should leave, he cando whatever he wants.
I it's kind of late.
Now I'm saying he should leave.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I've been saying that yeah and it reminds me that,
yes, I agree with what you'resaying, and and that reminds me
of the story of kodak.
I was thinking about kodakearlier you know kodak.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
You just start talking about kodak in bed too.
I did not.
You know, I thought about kodakthis morning, but um Kodak.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
You just start talking about Kodak in bed too.
I did not.
No, I thought about Kodak thismorning, but Kodak and just in
general companies that kind ofheld on with a leadership team
for too long.
You know Kodak dominated thecamera and mostly the film media
industry.
(28:11):
You know, in the day and theywere on top.
I mean people.
You know people now, gen xers.
They have no memory of going tothe store and you know how they
stack cigarettes in those thosethings today, when they've got
all these cigarettes stacked upand they'll go and they'll reach
and grab a pack of cigarettes.
Here you go.
That's how they used to filmand camera.
You'd have your 400 ASA, youhad your 200, all your different
(28:34):
ones.
You know 35 millimeter, kodak,fuji made it for all stuff.
You used to see that all thetime, you know back in the day,
but I think it was.
You know, in the mid seventiesKodak actually invented,
(28:55):
invented the digital camera.
But they were kind of goingafter their cash cow and they
kept kind of squeezing it andtrying to get more money and and
they just failed to adapt totheir own technology, you know.
And then other people camealong and you know digital
photography was not that greatin the beginning.
But nothing ever is in thebeginning.
You develop it over time andyou've got to see People can
(29:16):
sell cameras without the needfor film.
What's that going to do to ourbusiness, which is primarily
around producing film?
Speaker 4 (29:24):
They were all around the film and then all of a
sudden you get the technologythat requires no film.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Requires no film.
So they did this, and theywound up with this huge
competitive disadvantage, onethey could not catch up from.
They couldn't do it and theytried, but they couldn't do it,
and so I think it was like in2012 or something right, when
the Cowboys just switchedcoaches Kodak went bankrupt.
Kodak went bankrupt, you know,and who's talking about Kodak
(29:57):
anymore Besides us talking aboutexamples of companies with
leadership, in this case,company?
You know, they just failed toadapt, they failed to innovate,
they failed to adapt, and whatmade Kodak so great is not
what's going to make Kodak greatinto the future, unless, what
defines you as great is theability to innovate and change
(30:21):
as necessary, rather than toface the pain that change
portends.
You know what it implies.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
So do you think that the culture and the development
of what Gundy brought toOklahoma State in the last 22
decades sounds like you'rethinking that it's not going to
carry the program into thefuture?
What he did over the last twodecades, which was great, which
(30:51):
was good, which was, you know,all the wins and all that, Is
that still working for theprogram today?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Sounds like you're going to say no, Clearly not.
I mean no, absolutely not it'sjust not.
And when you think about what'sgoing to happen to future
recruiting classes again, who'sgoing to want to go play
football for OSU when they havea season like last season and
they're posting worst losses inschool history?
Who's going to want to playthere when they can go to
(31:20):
Alabama or Oregon or Michigan,texas you can look at Texas the
number of head coaches thatTexas has had in that time.
These are programs that arededicated to winning.
They're not dedicated to denial.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Or to a person.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
To a person, but in the end, to me that's denial.
But yes, I think there's a cultof personality around Mike
Gundy, that OSU, the athleticdirector, the president, the
board of regents and theboosters have got to get over.
And they've got to get overthis psychological barrier
(32:01):
they're hitting up against,which is essentially denial.
They're delaying the discomfortof change to stick with what
they've got and try to reinvestin the forerunner.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Yeah, it almost seems like he's uh, uh, it's all
about you.
Know, it's not about you as aleader, it's not about you, it's
about the team, it's about theprogram, but it seems as though,
uh, they're making it and he'smaking it about him, which is
(32:35):
dangerous.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It is becoming about him, and not only is Gundy
making it about him and kind ofbeing, you know, at this point,
selfish in that way.
You know, the athletic director, all those people that I just
mentioned, the president, theydon't want to do it either, and
so they.
They're more responsive to thepain of change and and and maybe
(32:58):
the criticism they might getfor something, because people
can come back with stats and say, oh, he's been the best coach
in osu history, he's done allthese amazing things and yes,
but it's what he's done, it'swhat got you here, going to get
you there, and I think what thegame against oregon proved.
For those of us who have beensaying for a while, it's time
(33:19):
for gundy to step aside and letsomebody else take the program.
I heard during the game thatthat the whole coaching staff of
osu, that they've had aturnover of the, of all the
coaches in the coaching staffexcept for Gundy, right.
So they got a brand new slate ofguys and they go out onto the
field against Oregon and theygot beat in every way.
(33:41):
Oregon's players were justbetter they're they're bigger,
faster, stronger, they're moredisciplined.
And I was I was looking at the,watching the game.
Just like the kind of mistakesosu was making had nothing to do
with whether or not they werebigger, faster, stronger the osu
players.
They were undisciplined, theywere poorly coached.
(34:02):
They were.
They kept jumping off sides,false starts.
You know these kind of thingsand and you know which related
to jv team yeah, it was justlike.
You know you're not ready toplay.
You're not ready to play atthis level like against any team
really.
I mean, if you're making thosekind of mistakes, you know you
might be able to disguise it.
If you really go out and youplay sister mary's church of the
(34:23):
blind, you can go out and youcan make those kind of mistakes
and still win, feel good aboutyourself.
But you gotta look back and say, okay, how's this going to work
when I find somebody who'sreally a good team?
How's it going to work if I'mconstantly jumping off sides?
Speaker 4 (34:37):
I heard gundy talking about his brand new coaching
staff.
Came up with these complicatedplays yeah, and yeah, and then
the, the students, the students,the players are young enough to
not be able to execute suchcomplicated you know.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
So the buck stops with the other coaches?
Is that what he's saying?
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Well, he was bringing that up.
It starts with him, but yeah,so I don't want to hear anything
about the other coaches.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I don't want to hear anything about the other coaches
from Gundy.
I want Gundy.
I want to hear Gundy get upcoaches.
I don't want to hear anythingabout the other coaches from
Gundy.
I want Gundy.
I want to hear Gundy get up inthere to say we, yeah, not they,
we, we or I.
I just didn't do what I had todo to get my team ready, and if
he can't say that, then he's notfunctioning as a head coach.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
So I'm going to read you something that Mike Gundy he
says.
Mike Gundy is Oklahoma Statefootball period.
As quarterback he set recordsin the Barry Sanders era.
As coach he stacked 160 wins,19 straight bowls, a Big 12
(35:46):
title, two Fiesta Bowls,multiple top 10 finishes and
sent dudes to the NFL year afteryear.
He's the winningest coach inOSU history and the most
important name this program hasever had.
Without him, you'd have nothingto brag about, nothing to watch
, nothing to cry about.
Let's be clear before Gundy, osufootball was a damn
(36:07):
afterthought.
He made us nationally respected.
He gave still water relevance.
He gave you 19 years of bowlgames, stability and consistency
.
He gave you games worthbragging about, rivalries worth
caring about and seasons you'llnever forget.
And what do the fans do inreturn?
Trash him online.
Like you know football, youdon't.
(36:28):
You watch three hours onSaturday and think you've got it
all figured out.
You don't see the work, theloyalty, the recruiting, the
development, the grind thatkeeps OSU relevant year after
year.
So when you bash Mike Gundy,remember this.
He's in the record booksforever.
His legacy is carved in stone.
He made Oklahoma State footballyou.
(36:48):
You're just in the replies,crying like children.
Hate, all you want.
It doesn't change the truth.
Gundy.
The Gundy name built thisprogram.
The Gundy name is forever tiedto OSU football.
So take your little hot, takes,fold them up real nice and
shove them up your ass.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
So I think that's pretty well written by his son.
But the thing and what I'm notdoing is, like I said, I'm not
running Mike Gundy down Right.
I appreciate what Mike Gundyhas done for the program, so you
know if there I know there arepeople out there who take pot
shots.
Right.
You know at Mike Gundy and sayyou know untoward things and I'm
not among them.
(37:30):
You know I give Mike Gundy hisprops and I appreciate what he's
done for the program.
I guess the thing that Idisagree with the strongest is
to say that Mike Gundy is OSUfootball and I think that's
(37:54):
exactly the mentality that kindof feeds into this problem of
denial, that says therefore wemust stick with Mike Gundy no
matter what.
My question would be okay sowhen Mike Gundy's 100 years old
what?
What's too old, you know when?
Would his son say you know thistime and not the age like I
think gundy's probably 60, 61,62 years old, somewhere right in
there right around our agesyeah.
So I don't think that's too oldto coach.
So I'm not even saying age isis the primary factor here,
(38:15):
right?
Because there's lots of coacheswho have coached you know
beyond that age and done so verysuccessfully.
So I'm not saying that it's age, I'm just saying what factors
would come together, you know,to cause Mike Gundy's son to say
it's time for him to move on.
Is there anything?
Or must we stick with Gundyuntil Gundy is 100 years old?
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Right, just run him into the ground.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah.
So I think if I were Gundy'sson, I would probably write an
article like that.
And bravo to him for supportinghis dad.
I think that's great, but I dothink also that he's got a
little bit of a conflict ofinterest being like Gundy's son.
But I think he did a great jobof writing an article for his
(39:00):
dad.
I really respect that.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
I don't think it's a conflict of interest.
I think that's a good son woulddo something like that for
their dad to defend in this timewhen there's a huge controversy
.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I'm saying that because he is his son.
There is a conflict of interest.
He's not exactly objective.
We can agree on that, right,yeah, right.
So I think, yeah, I don't haveany issue and I wouldn't
criticize his son.
I'm not trying to be unfair inmy criticism of Gundy.
I have a custom.
I'm not giving him unfaircriticism, I'm just but.
(39:41):
But I think you know in thatposition you're paid lots of
money to to produce results andhe's no longer producing those
results and at this point he'sdoing more harm to the program
than good.
And I think I think the best wayfor levels, you know, I think
the best way for OSU to moveforward is just to bring in a
new head coach that has promisedto rebuild a great program
that's had.
(40:01):
I don't know if there's anyprogram that's had more money
poured into it than osu and it'sright up there at the top.
Probably five programs have hadmoney poured into it, right, t
boone, pickens, boom pickens andothers.
Um, but I think it's time forthem to bring in a new head
coach.
I think it would be great ifgreat, if Gundy would just
resign and talk about and soeverybody could celebrate what a
(40:22):
great job that he's done, youknow, and kind of usher in a new
era, of a new coach that givesnew hope to new recruits, top
recruits, that want to come inand get kind of get back in on
the ground floor of a greatprogram that Gundy built and
kind of get back in on theground floor of a great program
that Gundy built and moveforward under a new coach that
has fresh perspective, newenergy, new innovation, new
(40:47):
relationships with other coachesthat he can bring in as part of
his crew and create a betterfuture for Oklahoma State
football.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
That's what I think and create a better future for
Oklahoma State football.
That's what I think.
It takes a lot of humility fora leader to step aside and to
actually want the next person todo even better than what they
did and to give them thatopportunity, instead of running
it until the wheels fall off andthen it's kind of ugly, it's
(41:17):
kind of messy.
It's kind of messy, it's kindof embarrassing and you become
not dishonored, but you know, ifyou stayed too long, then it's
not dishonored, but I can'tthink of the word I'm trying to
come up with.
But anyway, what do you think?
(41:37):
What can a coach at OklahomaState go for?
An up-and-coming name oranother proven veteran?
Speaker 1 (41:46):
I think you have to go with a proven veteran.
It can be somebody who'sup-and-coming, as long as they
produce really good results.
But I would say it's somebodywho's got to inspire confidence
in the next recruiting class,you know, which is underway, I'm
sure you know.
So if they have, you know,promise of a new coach, he's
going to turn the program around.
(42:07):
They can more quickly, you know, rebuild the, the, the program.
But my bet, my basic thesis, isthis I just wrote this down that
gundy's past achievementachievements definitely elevated
the program and everybodyshould be thankful for that.
But the current trajectory isright now is, you know,
(42:31):
threatens osu football history,future, I'm sorry, future, and
it will kind of like put a, youknow, kind of a black mark on
gundy's name that he didn't goout on top.
He didn't go out, you know,come at the right time and turn
over the reins.
So you know, I would say that Iwould love it if, gundy, you
(42:55):
just decided to retire again sothat he could be recognized for
what he's done for OSU footballand move on while he still has
most of his record, that is, youknow, unblemished.
Get out at a good time wherehe's not having a detrimental
(43:15):
impact that I'm quite certain hedoes not want to have on the
future of OSU football.
Yeah, Go out on his terms, yes,and turn over the reins you know
to somebody else with with new,fresh energy perspective
innovation, like I said earlier,yeah, and somebody who's going
to inspire confidence, you know,in the, in the guys that are
(43:40):
currently there in the nextrecruiting class.
I think OSU can kind of climbback on top on top being like a
relative thing, get back to kindof that consistent win but have
some top 10 finishes and, forPete's sake, put a team together
that can beat OU and respect ohyou, no, no shade on oh you.
(44:00):
I gotta say you know they, youknow it's irritating, but, just
in fairness, oh, you're justbetter and and, oh you, oh you
is a good model because, oh, youhas made the changes they need
to, they need to make to stay ontop.
And none of these guys had, youknow, seven year, you know,
losing histories or whatever.
No, they, they, they, uh, bywhatever mechanism it happened,
(44:23):
they got new coaches that didnew things for the team and kept
them fresh and on top andthey're still there.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
Well, I think that about sums it up.
I think we know where you siton the.
Should I stay or should I gonow?
Should he stay or should I gonow?
Should he stay or should he go?
I'm with you.
I think he should probablygraciously step aside and make
(44:50):
way for a new, for some freshblood, and in doing that, he
actually is helping the futureprogram in a different way.
Yes, very much so.
He's doing it in a veryinfluential way.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
That is such a great point.
Him doing this the right waycan do more to propel the
program going forward, I think,than just about any other move
he could make.
That is a solid point.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
Thank you, oh man, move, he could make that is a
solid point.
Thank you, oh man.
Well, I'm uh, that was a gooduh discussion, good conversation
, uh.
For those of you listening outthere, you know what are your
thoughts.
Do you think he should stay?
Should he go?
you know, and what I reallyappreciate about this
conversation was and you don'tget this a lot anymore.
(45:40):
People are either on one sideor the other and there's a lot
of venom and to show respect forthe person in question, and I
(46:06):
think you and I both wantGundy's best and we have Gundy's
best interest at heart, Don'twant to see anything happen.
Would like to see some goodthings happen.
It might just be in a differentway than you know, whatever,
maybe even than what he'sthinking about, but there
(46:27):
there's a good outcome for thisand I think we both realize that
, and that's I wish more peoplehad this kind of discourse
rather than haters going to hateand blah, blah, blah.
I understand passion and driveand your heat, but if you can
(46:52):
temper that with a goodconversation and flesh out what,
what could happen and whatneeds to work, that everyone
wins on that.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
So yeah, and Gundy, you know he can preserve his
legacy, his incredible legacy,by going out on his terms and
passing the torch and wishingthe program the best success.
This new guy has my endorsement.
He's what the program needsgoing forward so he can go out
(47:25):
with that kind of grace and kindof like preserving his legacy
in that way and handing it offto somebody else and doing all
that.
It's just putting the cherry ontop and he still goes out on
top and he preserves the legacy,yep.
Speaker 4 (47:36):
Well said, well, on that note, I think I might go
have some lunch, me too, it's11.20 almost.
My time.
Might eat about 12 eggs orsomething I don't know.
I'm starving, all right, well,for sweet Ben Townsend.
This is Scott.
Thanks for listening to theScott Townsend Show.
If you have any questions,comments, concerns, you can send
(47:58):
them to scott atscotttownsendinfo.
Have a great day, everything'sgoing to be all right and we'll
talk to you later.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
The Scott Townsend Show is a Dietz-O-Man production
.
For more episodes, visit theScott Townsend Show is a
Dietz-O-Man production.
For more episodes, visit theScott Townsend Show YouTube
channel, listen on ApplePodcasts or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
What I'm not doing as an OSU fan and a fan of Mike
Gundy, is running Mike Gundydown.
I think everybody should bevery appreciative of what he did
for the program but, just likethe guy who wrote the book, what
got you here is not going toget you there the failure to
adapt.
Somebody has a good run.
(00:22):
They build a program to acertain point, but can they take
it to that next step?
And I think that the answer forGundy is no, he can't.
No, he can't.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought to you by
Dietzelman Productions.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
So, hey, welcome back to the Scott Townsend Show show
.
This is scott, and I'm joinedby good friend, little brother,
executive producer, all-around,great guy, sweet ben, townsend
ben, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
not much, just uh doing a little research on stuff
this morning and, um, just kindof going pouring over some news
, financial news and stuff.
So what'd?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
you have for breakfast, this morning coffee I
know I've been doingintermittent fasting too, and
right now I'm so hungry.
Oh my gosh, see, I don't gethungry anymore, you don't?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
No, I guess I've been doing this now for probably
about I don't know maybe eightweeks or something.
Oh yeah, longer than me, but Inever really did, oh man, I just
spilled coffee all over theplace.
I never really did get hungry.
Yeah.
I mean not really.
And the longer I go with it,the less I get hungry with it.
(01:47):
I mean not really.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
And the longer I go with it, the less I have an
issue Right now if I pass out.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
It's just low blood sugar.
Well, I got to say you lookgood.
I mean you've slimmed down alittle bit.
Not that you looked bad before,but you look good.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
I appreciate that.
Yeah, there's a picture of youand Janet that you sent on your
anniversary and I was like manBen's really cutting it down man
.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, and it's things like you know.
It's things like you knowcertain things in my diet.
Like man, I love bread, I justdo and uh, but it doesn't love
me back you know and, um, youknow, eating bread and stuff and
anything that's like.
You know anything with grains init.
It's just something I'mlimiting and it's not faddish
(02:31):
for me.
I don't care about that stuff.
It used to kind of like, that'skind of like.
Oh, brother, you know, I hearpeople talk about gluten-free
stuff.
But it's real.
Janice, very gluten sensitiveshe, I mean, that's super real
for her and right, you know, asI've kind of learned more about
I've realized that I I have alittle bit of sensitivity to
gluten also.
Oh yeah, so I'm just makingchanges, you know, a few changes
to, uh, remove that so there'sbread you can buy that's more
(02:52):
seed based and it is different,yes, um, but it's not, it's not
something that I have to have.
You know the regular bread,grain-made bread from wheat and
stuff.
So I made that substitution atSwitch.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
We have some of that grain bread.
You know it's kind of hard.
It's harder bread.
You know it's a little stiffer.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
The sprouted grain bread.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Yeah, and I told Celeste the other day.
I said man, I just want someWonder Bread.
I want some Mrs.
Baird's, I know, yeah, left theother day I said, man, I just
want some wonder bread, I wantsome mrs, I know, I know, yeah,
I want a good old soft bleach,white bleach, flour, you know,
uh, peanut butter and jellysandwich but you know, there we
are, you know I guess I could dothat like every once in a while
(03:40):
.
But yeah, knowing how it's notthat great for you, it's easy to
steer away from it.
But yeah, I don't know, I mightbreak down, just keep a loaf
handy and whatever.
But anyway.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay, put some glass in case of emergency break glass
kind of thing yeah, break outthe miss bairds.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
Yeah yeah, miss Baird's bread Used to get that
at the Piglet Wiggly back in theday, back in Waco, texas.
So what's on your mind, sweetBen?
You got your OSU shirt on.
I should have worn an OSU shirttoday.
We're talking.
What are we talking about?
I?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
think we need to talk about OSU.
What's irritating you?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
We need to talk about it.
What's the itch you want toscratch today?
Did you watch the game?
No, this last weekend.
Bring everybody up to speed forthose who might not, for that
one or two people out there thatmight not know what we're
getting ready to talk about twopeople out there that might not
(04:48):
know what we're getting ready totalk about.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, so so on Saturday I think they kicked off
around 245.
Oklahoma State played Oregon.
Of course Oklahoma, and listen,I I've kind of been out of um
professional football, like alltogether and really most sports.
I've just been focused on doingother things.
I have followed the Cowboys inprior seasons Last season just
too busy with stuff going on inour personal lives with Janet's
(05:13):
recovery from all her cancerstuff, it just was lower
priority.
But they had an abysmal seasonlast year.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Yeah, 2024,.
Was that their worst season, or?
One of the worst seasonsthey've had in a long time.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I think it's Gundy's worst season yeah, gundy's worst
season yeah.
So you know they had a badseason last year and it was, I
guess, seeing that, I wassurprised how fast and how far
they fell from the prior season,because I think in 2023, I
(05:51):
wrote down some numbers, I thinkthey end the season 2023 ranked
number 18.
You know what I mean?
That's pretty good.
And then they have a seasonwhere they just like drop off
the cliff and they had you cliffand they managed to win three
games.
I think, yeah, three games.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Wow, only three games .
So how can you go that?
Far that fast?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, that's a good question, and I don't know,
because I didn't watch thosegames.
I would catch some of themevery once in a while, but I
just didn't stick with it enoughto really be able to speak
authoritatively about whathappened there other than kind
of the big picture view thatI've had for, um, you know,
probably at least 12 years, I'llsay 12 years longer yeah, um,
(06:39):
and you know it's just, it'sjust kind of uh to me like I
remember going to Oklahoma State.
We went there the same year.
You had your first year at KUand I was one year behind you
and I went to OSU for my firstyear.
So my first year there youtransferred in.
We were there at the same time.
Right, that was 1983, fall of1983.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Back in the Jimmy, was it Jimmy Jones?
And?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Jimmy Johnson.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Jimmy Johnson and uh Pat, pat, pat Pat.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Well, he came later, but he was a defensive
coordinator.
Pat Jones, pat Jones.
Yes, yeah, that's right, I'dforgotten about Pat Jones.
I like Pat Jones.
I like Jimmy Johnson too.
Um, and I remember JimmyJohnson too.
Those were back in the.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Barry Sanders days.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah, and before him Thurman Thomas.
Thurman Thomas yeah, I remembergoing to Oklahoma State and
knowing that Thurman Thomas wasa good back, I remember going up
there and watching him downthere on the field running
around like God.
It was just amazing.
He went on to the Buffalo Billsand I think he set buffalo
bills rushing records which Ithink may have it may have been
(07:51):
broken like that.
That.
What last night?
That that game, the, thebuffalo bills and, uh, the
ravens, baltimore ravens thatwas a wild game, fun game to
watch.
Huh, that was two teams thathad no give up in them anywhere
and it was two heavyweights justbrawling to the end Just
(08:11):
slugging it out.
Yeah, and the Bills kind oflike trailed for most of the
game.
And really just watching thegame I'm like, well, the Ravens
have the upper hand here.
I mean, they just look a littlebit better.
And what's the running back'sname?
from alabama um sorry, I can'thelp you there oh gosh, uh,
(08:33):
anyway, uh, anybody watchingthis is going to scream at the
camera.
Right now come on you gottaderrick.
What huh?
Derrick, henry, derrick, henry,that guy is a stud and and, and
he's not only big and strongerthan everybody else, he's also
fast and he can put distancebetween himself and somebody who
(08:56):
has a safety, who has blazingspeed, and that's why they're
back there in a cornerback orsafety position.
He can create space betweenthose guys in just a foot race,
70 yards to the goal line, andstiff-armed guys just make them
look foolish as they try totackle him.
The guys, they stud, and he didhave a critical fumble towards
(09:18):
the end of that game.
Anyway, this isn't about thatgame, but we were talking about
Thurman Thomas, and so I thinkThurman Thomas record may have
been beat last night in likewhatever the stat was that they
were showing on the screen, um,but Thurman Thomas to run around
.
Then I remember Barry Sandersshowed up and he was running
kickoff returns and stuff, andThurman Thomas was still, you
(09:39):
know, in the backfield and, as Irecall, and and Barry Sanders
was, you know, running kickoffreturns.
Yeah, he's, like you know,running through everybody and
like scoring touchdowns things.
Oh, wow, you know, andeverybody's like, well, barry
sanders, like you know, it'samazing running back.
He may be even better thanthurman thomas.
I'm like well, how is that evenpossible?
You know, because thurmanthomas was a heisman candidate
(10:02):
and, uh, recognized one of theone of the best, if not the best
, running back in the country.
Right, and here we have barrysanders who looked just, I mean,
no shade on him, I mean helooked every bit as good as
barry sanders, just kind of headscratcher.
Well, it turns out we just hadthis really rare thing forming
up yeah, where you have thesetwo heisman quality backs
showing up at a school likeoklahoma state right, you know
(10:25):
lightning striking twice, yeahyeah, exactly, and so those kind
of things are rare, you know,and but they're great when they
happen and we were there towatch all that.
But along with that so greatalong with that, I remember
watching uh gundy, mike gundy,at quarterback.
You, you know quarterbackplaying out there and uh, and he
did a great job, very, verygood.
(10:46):
Um, you know he, uh, he had alot of will to win and he, you
know, was a very successfulquarterback at Oklahoma state.
I mean the whole team was wasreally good back then.
I remember you guys that kindof wrote about a lot in the old
college like Igo and Segelski,offensive linemen.
You had Leslie O'Neill, leslieO'Neill Just a bunch of guys
(11:15):
like that.
Leslie went on to play.
I think he played for theChargers, I'm not sure I think
it was the Chargers.
Then he went on to maybe acouple other teams before he
retired, but he was like anincredible talent also.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
It was a golden.
Those were some golden years.
I mean, we were there towitness it.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, it really was, it was great.
But so I remember all that andI remember, you know, thinking
about those guys and wow aboutthose guys, and wow, you know
that the these guys are amazing.
And then when mike gundy camein to osu, I think in 2003 or 4,
as the head coach, you know Iwant, I remember thinking I
wonder if he can like kind ofparlay his, his success as a
(11:57):
quarterback into a head coach,right?
You know head coaching position, yeah, and kind of?
can he?
Can he, you know, succeed?
You know at that level as ahead coach for oklahoma state,
that that he did as a player,quarterback, key position, hands
on the ball, every singlepossession.
You know for oklahoma statewhen he was playing.
(12:18):
You know back in the day in thein the early to mid 80s.
And I think the answer to thatquestion is yes, yes, he, he was
able to come in and, you know,take the, the cowboys kind of to
to a new um level ofperformance right it took.
It took a little while, you know.
(12:40):
I was looking at the um, I waslooking at the ap rankings for
osu.
So I was doing, I did someresearch on that this morning,
looking at the AP rankings forOSU.
I did some research on thatthis morning.
I was looking at it.
I don't think they were rankedat the end of the season 2004,
through 2008,.
Through 2007, but then in 2008,I think they were ranked number
10, finishing the season number10, and then the next year 7
(13:06):
and the next year 11 and thenext year 16.
So that's those.
Those are strong numbers,strong performances.
So he's, you know, he has thisthing where he's like, you know,
building this program.
When you do great things likethat, you know you, you get um,
you get better recruitingclasses because people want to
come and participate, peoplewant to donate.
(13:27):
People want to donate yep andboone pickens, most notably.
So you know there were someothers as well, um, but you know
, he, he, um, he did a lot forthe program and and he took it
to a higher level.
But you know, it's kind ofwatching their, their
performance, you know, and andthey had some teams in there
(13:49):
when they they should have been,and so so I I've been kind of
comparing them to oh you, okay,there's all kinds and I'm not,
I'm not steven a smith here, youknow, I'm just I'm just ben,
you know, and I'm I'm kind ofgoing back on my own
recollection and my time thereand my kind of my status as a as
a fan over the years and but Iremember you know it was like
(14:16):
probably around 2012 they had Iforget what year it was, but I
think they went in to norman.
I can't remember which year itwas, but they, I think they went
in to Norman.
I can't remember which year itwas, but they went into Norman
with a great team and OU was sobeat up at the time.
They had a very good team too,but they were plagued with
injuries and they had a lot oftheir stars on the sidelines,
(14:39):
couldn't play and OU was hurtingso bad to have people out there
who could really compete at ahigh level Not that they weren't
, they shouldn't have the in thering experience yet.
I joke with people and say theywere practically calling
students down out of the standsto put on a uniform and get on
(15:00):
the offensive line.
The guy playing tuba, hey, comedown here and put on a uniform.
Um, but osu went in and theyshould have won that game and
they and they got beat.
And I'm like, okay, if you goback and look at the history of
ou osu.
Ou definitely has the upperhand in ou osu games it's always
(15:20):
so discouraging.
It's a heartbreaker for osu fans, but you got to hand it to ou.
Really, yeah, I mean, uh, youcan, people can hate on them if
they want, but I think there'sthere's a lesson to be learned
from how ou puts togetherconsistently winning teams and
how, in a bedlam series you knowwithin the state of oklahoma,
(15:41):
you know how they can they canconsistently come out on top.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
I know it was always so depressing when OU would come
to Stillwater because you wantto win so bad, but you know it's
not going to happen.
It didn't for the longest time,it seems like, and we had a few
wins, but yeah, it was kind ofdemoralizing.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I remember one year, and I think this was maybe my
junior year I remember we wereplaying OU in Stillwater.
We had good seats at this game.
We were on the 40-yard line,halfway up.
We had a great team.
And we were like on the 40 yardline, halfway up and we we had
(16:26):
a great team and we were beatingoh you.
You know, it's like all right,you know we're going to beat oh
you this year.
You know, so late in the gamewe were up by like four or five
points, something I don'tremember exactly score,
something like that and therewas um, I think ohU had tried to
go down and score and theycouldn't score.
(16:49):
Our defense stopped them greatdefense and so OU was kicking
off.
Let's see, no, no, actuallythey had scored, they had scored
and they were kicking off, butwe were still ahead like four or
five points or something.
And so OU kicked off and theydid the squib kick thing and it
(17:14):
hit one of our players rightthere in the helmet standing 15
yards away and it bouncedstraight back into the arms of
Scott Case I believe it wasscott case, for, oh, you used to
as a defensive player, but hewas, you know um, so they were
kicking off so it made sensethat he was on that team, yeah,
but he, he got the ball and now,oh, all of a sudden, oh, you
(17:38):
had another possession and theywound up going down and scoring.
I can't remember, was a fieldgoal, now, or or a touchdown?
I don't remember if it was afield goal now or a touchdown, I
don't remember what it was, butwhatever score it was, it was
enough to win the game at thelast second.
I mean there was seconds on theclock.
I mean just enough time to runyour three or four possessions
to get down in position to score.
(17:59):
And they scored.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Nothing looks worse than having a football bounce
off your helmet.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That was so demoralizing.
It was.
It was embarrassing.
I think it's probably how maybenot even as severe, but how the
Ravens fans felt last nightafter playing such great
smash-mouth football and reallynot making that many mistakes,
just had that one key fumble byone of their key players.
(18:26):
And you know, you lead the gamethe whole time, you feel
certain you have victory rightthere in your season opener
against a very good Bills team,and then all of a sudden they
come from behind and just kindof pull and so anyway, I
remember it leaving just likecompletely demoralized.
So it was.
You know those kind of thosethings over the years I think
(18:47):
OSU fans kind of have to dealwith.
There's this kind of psychology.
I think that runs deep in OSUathletics, aside from the
student body and things.
I think it's a generationalpsychological challenge.
You know that is kind of builtup against beating OU and you
know, and OU's just had betterteams.
(19:08):
So I think you've got to lookat programs like OU and others
to say, okay, they're doingsomething, they're consistently
creating better results.
How are they doing that?
You know, and so I was lookingat, you know, some of these
stats and this is just my own,so I was just researching this
stuff.
Today.
I'm looking at the number inthe Gundy era.
(19:30):
So I think he took over theteam in 2004,.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
I think 2004, 2005, something like that.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, and so in that time they've had 15.
Top 25 finishes, which ispretty good, and they'll tell
you.
During that time you would hearstats like yeah, gundy is the
winningest coach in collegefootball today.
During that time it was true,but part of that has to do with
(20:01):
his tenure.
If you look at OU, ou has had17 top 25 finishes for the
season versus OSU's 18.
And you dig into that a littlebit further and you look at
where they finished.
Not only did OU finish in thetop 25 more times than OSU did,
(20:22):
they also finished higher inthose rankings on average.
So I just averaged it out andthis is AP and I came up with
they had an average ranking ofthose 17 top 25 finishes of 7.5,
7.5, you know.
So they were, they were in thetop 10 for sure.
And I looked at the same thingfor osu and they and they didn't
(20:44):
have as many finishes.
So this is of a smallerpopulation, but they, they had
basically 13, they finished 13basically, which still, you know
, isn't that?
I mean, a lot of schools wouldlove to have an average top 25
finish of 13, right?
But I'm not talking aboutaverage, I'm talking about a
school and a student body thatwants to win, you know and what
(21:07):
and comparing it to the othernotable program in the state of
Oklahoma.
And so if you add in a zero ormore than top 25 finishes to
kind of match OU's 17, you haveto pull in seasons where OSU
finished maybe at number 35 ornumber 40.
(21:28):
Their average ranking wouldprobably go up to about you know
, 16 or 17.
So so ou's average finish inthe top 25, I'm going to say
we'll just say it's 50 is 50,better it's twice as good as
osu's finish.
Having said that, so that that'smy.
(21:49):
That was just kind of like well, I looked at on my spreadsheet
real quick.
But having said that, I thatwas just kind of like well, I
looked at it on my spreadsheetreal quick.
But having said that, I waswriting down some other stuff.
Let's see.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
So you're looking through that, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Okay.
So during the Gundy era, eventhough OU has had such great
programs and they've done suchgreat things, I feel like you're
building a case here,potentially.
OSU has had one coach, coachGundy.
Ou has had three coaches duringthat time, even though they've
(22:29):
consistently put up much betternumbers than OSU.
It started out with Stoops andthen Lincoln Riley and now Brent
Bennebould, who I don't know awhole lot about, but I do know
that Oklahoma still has a prettygood, pretty strong program.
So I've gone through threecoaches in the time that
Oklahoma State has just kind ofstuck with Mike Gundy, and over
(22:55):
the years I just kind of feellike you know, there's a story,
there's something you want tosay before I go on, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
So, yeah, it seems like there's this philosophy of
dance with the one that brungyou Kind of, and they've stuck
with Gandhi for all these years,you know, and there's something
to be said for loyalty, if it'sdeserved, if it's earned
Respect.
And he has a lot of respect forGandhi, no doubt about it.
(23:29):
But there's this big controversythat's brewing and has been
brewing.
The storm clouds have beengetting darker late and then
after this last weekend, it'slike everybody's like okay, it's
time to call it and there's abig controversy.
Fans, there's people who wanthim to stay, people who want him
(23:56):
to go um, and they're justreally kind of irritated.
Right now, not kind of, theyare irritated I gotta say I was
irritated.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, I was laying in bed.
I went to bed because, you know, um, I stayed up a little bit
after the game, just kind oflike thinking about the game,
and janet went to bed before Ido.
She turned out the lights.
I went in there, I got in bedand turn off the light.
We're both laying in bed, youknow, just kind of staring at
the ceiling.
And then I started.
I started talking about the osugame, like I'm like you know
(24:26):
it's, it's like, it's like andthis is in the dark.
You know she's trying to go tosleep.
Yeah, I said I just started.
I said you know this is andthis is in the dark.
You know she's trying to go tosleep.
Yeah, I just started.
I said you know, this is likeJanet's got a she drives a
4Runner right now and reallyliked that car.
I said it's like taking your4Runner and you start throwing
money at it because you're goingto enter your 4Runner in the
(24:48):
Indianapolis 500 race,forerunner in the the
indianapolis 500 race, andyou're going to put more money
into that forerunner thananybody puts into other these
fancy race cars and you're goingto go out there and try to win
this race in your souped upforerunner, and it doesn't
matter how much money you pourinto it, it doesn't matter how
much time, what kind of trickyengine engineering you do, it
doesn't matter.
(25:08):
You're never going to win thatrace in a forerunner ever, and I
kind of feel like that's wherewe are with gundy you know,
there's a yeah, I mean he andand it and.
So what I?
What I'm not doing as an osufan and a fan of Mike Gundy, is
(25:30):
running Mike Gundy down.
I think everybody should bevery appreciative of what he did
for the program but, just likethe guy who wrote the book, what
got you here is not going toget you there Right.
You know the, the failure toadapt.
You know, uh, somebody you knowhas a good run.
They build a program to acertain point, but can they take
(25:59):
it to that next step?
And I think that the answer forgundy is no, he can't.
No, he can't.
And so the longer he he staysthere, you know, the more damage
he's doing to the program.
Last year is a good example.
The oregon game is a greatexample.
Like they haven't been beatthat bad since Oklahoma became a
state 1907, something like that, yeah 118 years ago.
(26:22):
Yeah, think about that.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Yeah, that's not something you want on your
resume.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
no, and so if you're a top flight talent, whether
coming out of high school orsomebody looking to move from
one college to another, how manyof those people are going to
want to go to Oklahoma?
Speaker 4 (26:38):
State.
There's something to be saidfor knowing when to step aside,
knowing when to bow out 100%,knowing when to bow out um 100,
knowing when to go out.
And hopefully, everybody wantsto go out on top, but
(26:59):
unfortunately, some people thinkthat the top is still yet to
come.
And you know, you think ofjerry seinfeld.
His tv show was going supergreat, super great.
And then he just says you knowwhat?
This, we're done, I want to goout on top.
We have the best ratings, wehave everything.
Why wait for this?
(27:19):
Why wait for the wheels to falloff and then go?
Well, yeah, I guess we need togo.
So it's unfortunate though thatsometimes people and I'm not
saying he should leave, he cando whatever he wants.
I it's kind of late.
Now I'm saying he should leave.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I've been saying that yeah and it reminds me that,
yes, I agree with what you'resaying, and and that reminds me
of the story of kodak.
I was thinking about kodakearlier you know kodak.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
You just start talking about kodak in bed too.
I did not.
You know, I thought about kodakthis morning, but um Kodak.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
You just start talking about Kodak in bed too.
I did not.
No, I thought about Kodak thismorning, but Kodak and just in
general companies that kind ofheld on with a leadership team
for too long.
You know Kodak dominated thecamera and mostly the film media
industry.
(28:11):
You know, in the day and theywere on top.
I mean people.
You know people now, gen xers.
They have no memory of going tothe store and you know how they
stack cigarettes in those thosethings today, when they've got
all these cigarettes stacked upand they'll go and they'll reach
and grab a pack of cigarettes.
Here you go.
That's how they used to filmand camera.
You'd have your 400 ASA, youhad your 200, all your different
(28:34):
ones.
You know 35 millimeter, kodak,fuji made it for all stuff.
You used to see that all thetime, you know back in the day,
but I think it was.
You know, in the mid seventiesKodak actually invented,
(28:55):
invented the digital camera.
But they were kind of goingafter their cash cow and they
kept kind of squeezing it andtrying to get more money and and
they just failed to adapt totheir own technology, you know.
And then other people camealong and you know digital
photography was not that greatin the beginning.
But nothing ever is in thebeginning.
You develop it over time andyou've got to see People can
(29:16):
sell cameras without the needfor film.
What's that going to do to ourbusiness, which is primarily
around producing film?
Speaker 4 (29:24):
They were all around the film and then all of a
sudden you get the technologythat requires no film.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Requires no film.
So they did this, and theywound up with this huge
competitive disadvantage, onethey could not catch up from.
They couldn't do it and theytried, but they couldn't do it,
and so I think it was like in2012 or something right, when
the Cowboys just switchedcoaches Kodak went bankrupt.
Kodak went bankrupt, you know,and who's talking about Kodak
(29:57):
anymore Besides us talking aboutexamples of companies with
leadership, in this case,company?
You know, they just failed toadapt, they failed to innovate,
they failed to adapt, and whatmade Kodak so great is not
what's going to make Kodak greatinto the future, unless, what
defines you as great is theability to innovate and change
(30:21):
as necessary, rather than toface the pain that change
portends.
You know what it implies.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
So do you think that the culture and the development
of what Gundy brought toOklahoma State in the last 22
decades sounds like you'rethinking that it's not going to
carry the program into thefuture?
What he did over the last twodecades, which was great, which
(30:51):
was good, which was, you know,all the wins and all that, Is
that still working for theprogram today?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Sounds like you're going to say no, Clearly not.
I mean no, absolutely not it'sjust not.
And when you think about what'sgoing to happen to future
recruiting classes again, who'sgoing to want to go play
football for OSU when they havea season like last season and
they're posting worst losses inschool history?
Who's going to want to playthere when they can go to
(31:20):
Alabama or Oregon or Michigan,texas you can look at Texas the
number of head coaches thatTexas has had in that time.
These are programs that arededicated to winning.
They're not dedicated to denial.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Or to a person.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
To a person, but in the end, to me that's denial.
But yes, I think there's a cultof personality around Mike
Gundy, that OSU, the athleticdirector, the president, the
board of regents and theboosters have got to get over.
And they've got to get overthis psychological barrier
(32:01):
they're hitting up against,which is essentially denial.
They're delaying the discomfortof change to stick with what
they've got and try to reinvestin the forerunner.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Yeah, it almost seems like he's uh, uh, it's all
about you.
Know, it's not about you as aleader, it's not about you, it's
about the team, it's about theprogram, but it seems as though,
uh, they're making it and he'smaking it about him, which is
(32:35):
dangerous.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It is becoming about him, and not only is Gundy
making it about him and kind ofbeing, you know, at this point,
selfish in that way.
You know, the athletic director, all those people that I just
mentioned, the president, theydon't want to do it either, and
so they.
They're more responsive to thepain of change and and and maybe
(32:58):
the criticism they might getfor something, because people
can come back with stats and say, oh, he's been the best coach
in osu history, he's done allthese amazing things and yes,
but it's what he's done, it'swhat got you here, going to get
you there, and I think what thegame against oregon proved.
For those of us who have beensaying for a while, it's time
(33:19):
for gundy to step aside and letsomebody else take the program.
I heard during the game thatthat the whole coaching staff of
osu, that they've had aturnover of the, of all the
coaches in the coaching staffexcept for Gundy, right.
So they got a brand new slate ofguys and they go out onto the
field against Oregon and theygot beat in every way.
(33:41):
Oregon's players were justbetter they're they're bigger,
faster, stronger, they're moredisciplined.
And I was I was looking at the,watching the game.
Just like the kind of mistakesosu was making had nothing to do
with whether or not they werebigger, faster, stronger the osu
players.
They were undisciplined, theywere poorly coached.
(34:02):
They were.
They kept jumping off sides,false starts.
You know these kind of thingsand and you know which related
to jv team yeah, it was justlike.
You know you're not ready toplay.
You're not ready to play atthis level like against any team
really.
I mean, if you're making thosekind of mistakes, you know you
might be able to disguise it.
If you really go out and youplay sister mary's church of the
(34:23):
blind, you can go out and youcan make those kind of mistakes
and still win, feel good aboutyourself.
But you gotta look back and say, okay, how's this going to work
when I find somebody who'sreally a good team?
How's it going to work if I'mconstantly jumping off sides?
Speaker 4 (34:37):
I heard gundy talking about his brand new coaching
staff.
Came up with these complicatedplays yeah, and yeah, and then
the, the students, the students,the players are young enough to
not be able to execute suchcomplicated you know.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
So the buck stops with the other coaches?
Is that what he's saying?
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Well, he was bringing that up.
It starts with him, but yeah,so I don't want to hear anything
about the other coaches.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I don't want to hear anything about the other coaches
from Gundy.
I want Gundy.
I want to hear Gundy get upcoaches.
I don't want to hear anythingabout the other coaches from
Gundy.
I want Gundy.
I want to hear Gundy get up inthere to say we, yeah, not they,
we, we or I.
I just didn't do what I had todo to get my team ready, and if
he can't say that, then he's notfunctioning as a head coach.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
So I'm going to read you something that Mike Gundy he
says.
Mike Gundy is Oklahoma Statefootball period.
As quarterback he set recordsin the Barry Sanders era.
As coach he stacked 160 wins,19 straight bowls, a Big 12
(35:46):
title, two Fiesta Bowls,multiple top 10 finishes and
sent dudes to the NFL year afteryear.
He's the winningest coach inOSU history and the most
important name this program hasever had.
Without him, you'd have nothingto brag about, nothing to watch
, nothing to cry about.
Let's be clear before Gundy, osufootball was a damn
(36:07):
afterthought.
He made us nationally respected.
He gave still water relevance.
He gave you 19 years of bowlgames, stability and consistency
.
He gave you games worthbragging about, rivalries worth
caring about and seasons you'llnever forget.
And what do the fans do inreturn?
Trash him online.
Like you know football, youdon't.
(36:28):
You watch three hours onSaturday and think you've got it
all figured out.
You don't see the work, theloyalty, the recruiting, the
development, the grind thatkeeps OSU relevant year after
year.
So when you bash Mike Gundy,remember this.
He's in the record booksforever.
His legacy is carved in stone.
He made Oklahoma State footballyou.
(36:48):
You're just in the replies,crying like children.
Hate, all you want.
It doesn't change the truth.
Gundy.
The Gundy name built thisprogram.
The Gundy name is forever tiedto OSU football.
So take your little hot, takes,fold them up real nice and
shove them up your ass.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
So I think that's pretty well written by his son.
But the thing and what I'm notdoing is, like I said, I'm not
running Mike Gundy down Right.
I appreciate what Mike Gundyhas done for the program, so you
know if there I know there arepeople out there who take pot
shots.
Right.
You know at Mike Gundy and sayyou know untoward things and I'm
not among them.
(37:30):
You know I give Mike Gundy hisprops and I appreciate what he's
done for the program.
I guess the thing that Idisagree with the strongest is
to say that Mike Gundy is OSUfootball and I think that's
(37:54):
exactly the mentality that kindof feeds into this problem of
denial, that says therefore wemust stick with Mike Gundy no
matter what.
My question would be okay sowhen Mike Gundy's 100 years old
what?
What's too old, you know when?
Would his son say you know thistime and not the age like I
think gundy's probably 60, 61,62 years old, somewhere right in
there right around our agesyeah.
So I don't think that's too oldto coach.
So I'm not even saying age isis the primary factor here,
(38:15):
right?
Because there's lots of coacheswho have coached you know
beyond that age and done so verysuccessfully.
So I'm not saying that it's age, I'm just saying what factors
would come together, you know,to cause Mike Gundy's son to say
it's time for him to move on.
Is there anything?
Or must we stick with Gundyuntil Gundy is 100 years old?
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Right, just run him into the ground.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah.
So I think if I were Gundy'sson, I would probably write an
article like that.
And bravo to him for supportinghis dad.
I think that's great, but I dothink also that he's got a
little bit of a conflict ofinterest being like Gundy's son.
But I think he did a great jobof writing an article for his
(39:00):
dad.
I really respect that.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
I don't think it's a conflict of interest.
I think that's a good son woulddo something like that for
their dad to defend in this timewhen there's a huge controversy
.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I'm saying that because he is his son.
There is a conflict of interest.
He's not exactly objective.
We can agree on that, right,yeah, right.
So I think, yeah, I don't haveany issue and I wouldn't
criticize his son.
I'm not trying to be unfair inmy criticism of Gundy.
I have a custom.
I'm not giving him unfaircriticism, I'm just but.
(39:41):
But I think you know in thatposition you're paid lots of
money to to produce results andhe's no longer producing those
results and at this point he'sdoing more harm to the program
than good.
And I think I think the best wayfor levels, you know, I think
the best way for OSU to moveforward is just to bring in a
new head coach that has promisedto rebuild a great program
that's had.
(40:01):
I don't know if there's anyprogram that's had more money
poured into it than osu and it'sright up there at the top.
Probably five programs have hadmoney poured into it, right, t
boone, pickens, boom pickens andothers.
Um, but I think it's time forthem to bring in a new head
coach.
I think it would be great ifgreat, if Gundy would just
resign and talk about and soeverybody could celebrate what a
(40:22):
great job that he's done, youknow, and kind of usher in a new
era, of a new coach that givesnew hope to new recruits, top
recruits, that want to come inand get kind of get back in on
the ground floor of a greatprogram that Gundy built and
kind of get back in on theground floor of a great program
that Gundy built and moveforward under a new coach that
has fresh perspective, newenergy, new innovation, new
(40:47):
relationships with other coachesthat he can bring in as part of
his crew and create a betterfuture for Oklahoma State
football.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
That's what I think and create a better future for
Oklahoma State football.
That's what I think.
It takes a lot of humility fora leader to step aside and to
actually want the next person todo even better than what they
did and to give them thatopportunity, instead of running
it until the wheels fall off andthen it's kind of ugly, it's
(41:17):
kind of messy.
It's kind of messy, it's kindof embarrassing and you become
not dishonored, but you know, ifyou stayed too long, then it's
not dishonored, but I can'tthink of the word I'm trying to
come up with.
But anyway, what do you think?
(41:37):
What can a coach at OklahomaState go for?
An up-and-coming name oranother proven veteran?
Speaker 1 (41:46):
I think you have to go with a proven veteran.
It can be somebody who'sup-and-coming, as long as they
produce really good results.
But I would say it's somebodywho's got to inspire confidence
in the next recruiting class,you know, which is underway, I'm
sure you know.
So if they have, you know,promise of a new coach, he's
going to turn the program around.
(42:07):
They can more quickly, you know, rebuild the, the, the program.
But my bet, my basic thesis, isthis I just wrote this down that
gundy's past achievementachievements definitely elevated
the program and everybodyshould be thankful for that.
But the current trajectory isright now is, you know,
(42:31):
threatens osu football history,future, I'm sorry, future, and
it will kind of like put a, youknow, kind of a black mark on
gundy's name that he didn't goout on top.
He didn't go out, you know,come at the right time and turn
over the reins.
So you know, I would say that Iwould love it if, gundy, you
(42:55):
just decided to retire again sothat he could be recognized for
what he's done for OSU footballand move on while he still has
most of his record, that is, youknow, unblemished.
Get out at a good time wherehe's not having a detrimental
(43:15):
impact that I'm quite certain hedoes not want to have on the
future of OSU football.
Yeah, Go out on his terms, yes,and turn over the reins you know
to somebody else with with new,fresh energy perspective
innovation, like I said earlier,yeah, and somebody who's going
to inspire confidence, you know,in the, in the guys that are
(43:40):
currently there in the nextrecruiting class.
I think OSU can kind of climbback on top on top being like a
relative thing, get back to kindof that consistent win but have
some top 10 finishes and, forPete's sake, put a team together
that can beat OU and respect ohyou, no, no shade on oh you.
(44:00):
I gotta say you know they, youknow it's irritating, but, just
in fairness, oh, you're justbetter and and, oh you, oh you
is a good model because, oh, youhas made the changes they need
to, they need to make to stay ontop.
And none of these guys had, youknow, seven year, you know,
losing histories or whatever.
No, they, they, they, uh, bywhatever mechanism it happened,
(44:23):
they got new coaches that didnew things for the team and kept
them fresh and on top andthey're still there.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
Well, I think that about sums it up.
I think we know where you siton the.
Should I stay or should I gonow?
Should he stay or should I gonow?
Should he stay or should he go?
I'm with you.
I think he should probablygraciously step aside and make
(44:50):
way for a new, for some freshblood, and in doing that, he
actually is helping the futureprogram in a different way.
Yes, very much so.
He's doing it in a veryinfluential way.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
That is such a great point.
Him doing this the right waycan do more to propel the
program going forward, I think,than just about any other move
he could make.
That is a solid point.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
Thank you, oh man, move, he could make that is a
solid point.
Thank you, oh man.
Well, I'm uh, that was a gooduh discussion, good conversation
, uh.
For those of you listening outthere, you know what are your
thoughts.
Do you think he should stay?
Should he go?
you know, and what I reallyappreciate about this
conversation was and you don'tget this a lot anymore.
(45:40):
People are either on one sideor the other and there's a lot
of venom and to show respect forthe person in question, and I
(46:06):
think you and I both wantGundy's best and we have Gundy's
best interest at heart, Don'twant to see anything happen.
Would like to see some goodthings happen.
It might just be in a differentway than you know, whatever,
maybe even than what he'sthinking about, but there
(46:27):
there's a good outcome for thisand I think we both realize that
, and that's I wish more peoplehad this kind of discourse
rather than haters going to hateand blah, blah, blah.
I understand passion and driveand your heat, but if you can
(46:52):
temper that with a goodconversation and flesh out what,
what could happen and whatneeds to work, that everyone
wins on that.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
So yeah, and Gundy, you know he can preserve his
legacy, his incredible legacy,by going out on his terms and
passing the torch and wishingthe program the best success.
This new guy has my endorsement.
He's what the program needsgoing forward so he can go out
(47:25):
with that kind of grace and kindof like preserving his legacy
in that way and handing it offto somebody else and doing all
that.
It's just putting the cherry ontop and he still goes out on
top and he preserves the legacy,yep.
Speaker 4 (47:36):
Well said, well, on that note, I think I might go
have some lunch, me too, it's11.20 almost.
My time.
Might eat about 12 eggs orsomething I don't know.
I'm starving, all right, well,for sweet Ben Townsend.
This is Scott.
Thanks for listening to theScott Townsend Show.
If you have any questions,comments, concerns, you can send
(47:58):
them to scott atscotttownsendinfo.
Have a great day, everything'sgoing to be all right and we'll
talk to you later.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
The Scott Townsend Show is a Dietz-O-Man production
.
For more episodes, visit theScott Townsend Show is a
Dietz-O-Man production.
For more episodes, visit theScott Townsend Show YouTube
channel, listen on ApplePodcasts or wherever you listen
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