August 8, 2025 • 30 mins
Nothing hits the spot on a sweltering summer day quite like an ice-cold beer — and August just happens to be International Beer Month. Manny Munoz sits down with Dr. Malcolm Purinton of Northeastern University, who teaches the History of Beer, Alcohol, and Food, to explore the fascinating story behind the world’s favorite brew.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to iHeartRadio Communities, a public affairs special focusing on
the biggest issues in facting you this week. Here's many munhos.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And welcome to another edition of Iheartradios Communities. As you heard,
I am Manny Munyo's and I would love a follow
from you on Instagram at iod Manny is my handle
at iod m A n Y. There are a few
things better on a hot summer day than an ice
cold beer, and it just so happens August is International
(00:34):
Beer Month, so we decided to bring on an expert
to talk all things beard. We're joined by doctor Malcolm Parenton.
He's of Northeastern University, teaches the history of beer, alcohol,
and food, and obviously I'm majored in the wrong things.
Doctor Parenton, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Oh, happy to be here, so good talk.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Let me start off off topic and ask you about that.
I'm fascinated with the Discovery Channel series about the brands
that built America?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Are the History Channel? I guess it is. I didn't
realize that was taught in college.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Oh well, so I teach that through multiple different lenses.
So I've been studying the history of beer and researching
and writing about it for the past about twenty years,
and basically I've been using beer as a lens to
look at things like the history of technology, or the
history of society and culture, and the history of business
and education, and seeing how beer like influences and kind
(01:28):
of intersects with all of these aspects of our very
long human experience, going back thousands and thousands of beers.
So when I'm teaching it, it's about learning all these
different aspects of life and the world, but through the
lens of beer and alcohol and how that kind of intersects.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
How old is the history of beer and which civilization
is credited with inventing it?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Well, right now, the oldest evidence that we have of
kind of an intentional like fermentation is like of a
cyril grain of beer, goes back about thirteen thousand years
to a society and neolithics society actually on the eastern
edge of the Mediterranean. So it's it's way way older
than say slice spread or you know, the Wheel or
(02:13):
you know, really a settled civilization at all.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And I imagine by accident that they discovered beer.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Well, so they don't have any written records we're definitely assuming,
definitely an accident, but then one that was then you know,
very fruitful and enjoyable. And so it was continued on
like onwards through the civilizations of like the City Ansumer
of Babylon, of ancient Egypt, and going all the way
through through to the present day.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
How did these things globalize? I guess, like so many
things back then, It's really hard to know, but you
imagine just people moving from one region to another helped beer,
for example, spread across the globe.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Oh absolutely. Actually, when we look at kind of the
beginnings of human civilization of like settled communities who are
like you know, growing things like grain, there's some really
strong evidence pointing to the humans settled down for beer,
like to produce fermented beverages. And this is you could
see this all just kind of like through all these
(03:14):
ancient civilizations, you know, of the fertile crescents Mesopotamia, all
of these areas, and so these areas become centers of culture,
centers of trade, centers of production, and so people would
be coming through. I mean, we find evidence in the
mountains and like the Zagros Mountains in like western Iran
today or also like grain fermentation in Central Asia, you know,
(03:37):
combinations of rice and barley and wheat and other things.
And so with all the trade that builds up over
how the next thousands of years, right the knowledge of
these substances passed across oceans and seas.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Do you do you have a guess what there's a
beer of today that would be closely associated to what
beer might have been like back in those days, because
I can't imagine it was very pleasant to drink.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Well, one of the main ingredients that we use beer
using beer today is one that was not used for
most of human history, and that is hops. So a
nice like green flower, you know, it adds all the
flavor of the bitterness, a lot of the shelf quality
like shelf life quality to beer. But that was actually
only starting to be used in any great amount around
(04:27):
like the twelfth thirteenth centuries. And so if the earliest
the type of beer that we might think of is
being closest to the earliest beers would be called a
gruet today, so an unhopked beer, so beers that would
be including different types of herbs and spices and things
like that that would be found around because like otherwise,
you just kind of have this, you know, really you know,
(04:49):
multi sweet like sugary fermented drink. Right, So people would
put in really anything they found I've got you know,
if you're an ancient egypt you would probably be putting
in dates, you know, or you know, types of fruits,
or adding some honey, or even mixing some wine into
it as well to make you know, a whole different
concoction that were the still of base using like you know, wheat,
(05:11):
barley and so on that we would call a beer.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Almost sounds like some sort of fermented tea.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Definitely, Oh, Gruetz very much have kind of a tea
quality to them, right, And if you get the chance,
I mean, because they don't last for too long, you'll
find them at like you know, small like you know,
craft beer breweries and things like that. They are very unique.
A lot of the breweries will use things like yarrow
and sweet gale and rosemary in them, so they do
tend to be lately on the sweeter side and definitely
(05:41):
have that kind of tea quality to them.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
What is the significance of Pilsner in globalizing beer?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Well, there we goes my book The Globalization in a Glass,
The Rise of Kilsner. Beers who technology taste an empire
is kind of explain why we have one global style
of beer. So this is something that is kind of
wild about the light golden lager, like the Pilsner being
the first one coming out in eighteen forty two. That
see any type I mean, you think about bud buisor
(06:11):
you think about pasts, you think about you know, any
any brewery that has like a national connotation to it.
So like you know Castle in South Africa or Crystal
in Costa Rica and Kuyuba and places like that, or
like Supero, they all have a light golden lagger that
is kind of derivative of that original Pilsner. And so
(06:33):
what happens in the nineteenth century is we see globalization
expanding at a rapid rate, you know through especially through empire,
you know, the British Empire, French Empire, German Empire, and
the transportation through you know, through trains, through steamships, and
beer being a part of all of those aspects. You know,
if you have a starting a colony, say Germany is
(06:55):
starting one in Shanghai, they're gonna found King Dau. You
know what we think of is the Chinese beer br
Or in South Africa British British colony, and they have
Castlelogger by the turn of the twentieth century. And it's
a rather incredible story because it is, you know, after
ten thousands of years, now, you know, over ten thousand years,
we certainly have one style that comes to dominate the
(07:18):
entire globe. And it is light, it is lower in alcohol,
it is refreshing, and it is one that actually has
a nice long shelf life even with being lower in
alcohol and not having that stronger preservative quality that can
come with alcohol. And so it becomes a beer that
kind of represents modernity by the turn of the twentieth century.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Fascinating.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
A few more minutes here with doctor Malcolm Purenton of
Northeastern University teaches the history of beer, alcohol and food.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I imagine one of the difficult things.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Initially anyway, for thousands of years about beer was the
fact that there was no refrigeration. Is it something? Is
beer something that would go bad?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Oh quite quickly too, Yeah, I mean once until people
started using hops regularly. The hops not only you know,
can add you know, flavor, bitterness, like a roam, lots
of great qualities. They also add a strong preservative quality
to them because they act as an antibacterial. Then you
add the alcoholic content and like the boiling process that
goes through with making beer, and you have a beer
(08:21):
that has a longer shelf life. Prior to that, beer
with four refrigeration would be something that would be produced
on a regular, almost daily basis. I mean you have
home brewing, you know, like at the home you would
be brewing beer. You know, you wouldn't be producing it
for a large audience, for a large consumer base until
we get really into like you know, the sixteenth seventeen
(08:42):
eighteenth centuries where you start seeing industrialization playing a big
role and refrigeration. I mean it was even illegal to
brew beer for in many societies and kingdoms across Europe
that from April to October because of the heat of
the summer would make that beer go bad. It wasn't
the heat that's assaily, It was the amount of you know,
(09:03):
lots of microbiomes, you know, like bacteria funded eye wild
yeasts that would also be really attracted that sweet, you know,
sugary water and so make it go all funky and bad.
So refrigeration that comes about in the nineteenth century really
becomes a game changer regardless of your style of beer,
because pilsner, being a lagger beer, needs that colder temperature
(09:25):
both for fermentation and then for the long laggering phase
of that production. So laggering meaning to store in German,
you would be aging that beer for like three six months,
which you need a controlled, like refrigerated environment. So temperatures
had to play a major role throughout the history of beer.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
A few things more satisfying I mentioned in the open
than an ice cold beer. Yet I notice in some
cultures it isn't even in this day and age, they
don't drink it cold. Is there is there a reason
for that?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Yeah, there's actually I mean you think more like the
British audience looking at the cask ales. So it's a
specific type of beer that basically there's still living yeast
in that beer which needs to be at around room
temperature to keep fermenting. So it's a very long kind
of like slow. It adds so much more flavor. If
you have a really nice ice cold beer, that will
(10:19):
be refreshing, but a cold lemonade will also be refreshing.
And if you have a beer that's closer to room temperature,
you'll get a whole lot more flavor coming out of it.
So you'll be able to taste the hops more, you'll
be able to taste the yeast, you'll be able to
taste the grain in a way that you wouldn't if
it's super ice cold. So it can be refreshing, but
you will taste a whole lot more if it's a
little bit warmer.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Right, And then I guess maybe it was in the nineties,
maybe the early two thousands that we saw the rise
at least in the United States of micro brews and
all of these beer pubs. And I guess maybe even
the origins of well, let me let me rephrase that.
What is the origin of the ipa the Indian pale ale?
And how's that different from a pill here for example?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
So the ITA, I mean, has a very curious history
within craft beer movements, but the origins come from kind
of a naming convention of certain beers that are made for
the British Empire in the early nineteenth century. So it
was a beer that style has already been being produced
for sale in the late eighteenth century, but becomes named
(11:23):
in the early nineteenth century. I mean many, I mean billion,
decades and decades after the same style had already been
sent to India with the East India Company trade and
it was a style that was kind of named after
the fact. While for basically craft beer. We started seeing
ipa becoming a thing for craft beer in the nineteen nineties.
(11:46):
For the most part, you have like the East India
pale ale coming from like Brooklyn, and also the Harpoon
Ita coming from the Boston based you know, Harpoon Massachusetts
Bay Brewing Company. And then it really starts catching on
the eight nineties when we start seeing a push for bitterness.
You start seeing kind of like these bitterness battles of
like how happy can you make the beer? When we
(12:08):
start seeing like double IPAs coming out of like Russian
River in California, and even triple IPAs also from Russian River.
Was Pliny the Younger, and he's seeing just like a
push for this bitterness. Because it also that push of
bitterness is so against the flavors of those large macro brewers.
So the perhaps the Schlitz, the Anheuser, Bush, the cores
(12:29):
that all tend to have a more of a sweeter
quality because of like the corn and everything that's being
used in that beer and so producing like an ipa.
It really was in your face macro brew, like we're
going to be making something that is so against not
just you know, the goliath aspect of the is large
international companies, but also against the face of what they
(12:52):
were producing as a flavor too.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I think most of us are familiar obviously with drinking
beer on Saint Patrick's Day green beer, right, or the
month of October, celebrating Octoberfest. Why is August national beer month?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
So this has when things start kind of this is
more going back to like prohibition times where you start
seeing kind of it's a push for really the also
like the lowest month of consumption. You're seeing a lot
of you know kind of like the summer beers and
things like that, but you're seeing the transition going into
the octoberfests and fest beers and even the and the
pumpkin beers of the fall, and so August becoming like
(13:27):
a beer month is kind of offtick the like the
regular route of like the drinking the more you know
notable drinking holidays, October Fest, you know, Oste, Thanksgiving, Christmas,
New Year's going into you know, even Saint Pats s
St Pat's Day also Saint Valentine's Day, and you start
seeing like August becomes a good placement for that nice
(13:49):
national beer month for a point in time where people
aren't drinking as much. So I wa hay to kind
of support like the the industry as a whole.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Is there one beer style or historic year that that
you enjoy most that you think most people should try
and probably haven't heard of.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Oh, it kind of depends on the time of day. Honestly,
the beers that got me into looking at beer were
the Belgian Abbell style, So the Trappist brewers I'm taking
like chemet Blue or Rocqueford or Vestm where I mean,
there's such a unique style. The flavors come through more
from the yeast than they do from the hops, and
(14:28):
they tend to be rather complicated, like really just wonderful
beers to drink out of, like a nice goblin. But
also I just love having, you know, something fun in
this summer. So currently I'm enjoying a like a beer
that's almost it's like a saison, So a beer that's
originally made for the farm workers, like in southern Belgium,
northern France. Something that's light lower and alcohol has kind
(14:52):
of like a nice, you know, touch of flavor coming
from like some coriander and maybe a little bit of
salt in there, which is nice, very refreshing for these
hotter months by the water.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
That sounds fascinating.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Doctor Malcolm Purenton of Northeastern University teaches history of beer,
alcohol and food.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Really really appreciate the time and the information. I thought
it was fascinating.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Hey, thanks so much. Man's had a pleasure to be
on here.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Just a reminder if you have any questions or comments,
you could follow me on Instagram at iod manny as
my handle at iod m a n n y AMID.
Continuing fallout from the handling of the pandemic, the growth
of vaccine hesitancy comes increasing stories about outbreaks of everything
(15:34):
from measles to whooping cough, all of it highlighting the
importance of being immunized. Let's talk about it with doctor
Uli von Andre and, professor of immunu pathology at Harvard
Medical School. He is President of the American Association of Immunologists.
Doctor von Andre and I appreciate the time.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Well, Manny, thank you very much. For having me on.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Increasingly we're being reminded just how important it is to
get our children immunized, especially in this day and age.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
Yes, I agree. My own children, I have twins, are
immunized to various childs with vaccinations am I myself, although
I'm at a generation where some vaccines had not been available,
So I vividly remember having had them meathos as a child,
simply because I didn't have access to the vaccine back then,
(16:27):
and there was fun.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And that reminds us that it's not only children. It's
important for adults, especially adults that might be at risk
for one thing or another, to be immunized as well.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
That is correct. You know, we forget things, and our
immune system can forget things, and some vaccines will have
a finite lifespan for how long they are active, and
then occasional remind us by revaccinations are often very useful
to prevent infectious diseases in older age.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Can you explain it exactly how immunization schedules are developed.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Yeah, So they are based on extensive clinical trials in
thousands of often tens or even hundreds of thousands of patients,
where individuals are given a vaccine in different doses and
in different schedules, and then various measures are being taken
(17:27):
to determine what is the optimal immune response that confers
long term protection.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
We've seen a drop in childhood vaccination rates, especially over
the last few years since the pandemic, but that was
that seemed to be something that was growing even before
we dealt with COVID.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Yes, that is true, unfortunately in many cases, and we
can see the consequences of that with rising measos cases
in parts of the country. Now, I think it is
entirely okay for people to have questions about vaccines, to
(18:09):
understand how they work, to be concerned about potential side effects,
and I think it is important for everybody to inform
themselves about vaccines, how they work, what their effects are.
But the information has to come from trustable sources. In
(18:31):
this regard, I want to make a pitch for my
own organization, the American Association of Immunologists. There are non
partisan organizations with members in fifty different states and also
members in other countries. It's the largest organization of professional immunologists,
which are scientists studying the immune system of its kind,
(18:54):
and we have on our website resources try to explain
in simple terms how vaccines work. So if you go
to Immunology Explain, there you can find all the information
that you may need to make an informed decision.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Immunology Explained is the website.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
That is the that's the name of the well Immunology Explained.
There's a link on the AAI website. You can go
to either that or you can go directly to Immunology
Explained dot org and you will find the information there.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Explain what happens when we see a drop in childhood
vaccination rates.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
You know, if there is a pathogen such as say
the measles virus to stay with this example UH around
it is carried by an individual who is typically sick,
may not even know that he or she is infected,
and then it's in contact with other UH people around them.
(19:58):
If enough of the people don't have existing immunity against
this virus or you know, microbe, then it can spread
to another person and then you have this runaway event
where a highly contagious viruses and measles are among the
most contagious viruses known to man, can then spread in
(20:22):
a community, and that's what we call an epidemic.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
What does someone in your position think when you see
a resurgence of these diseases.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
That we that we basically had gone.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Extinct in our country, like measles, like whooping coffel, what
concerns arise in you?
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah, yeah, you're you're actually absolutely right. In two thousand,
measles have been declared extinct in the United States because
the cases had dropped to such low numbers, and so
perhaps so that we became a victims of our own success,
because if you think a disease is extinct, perhaps you
sort of let your are down a little bit and
(21:01):
find it less important to vaccinate against it. But you know,
there are many other countries where measles are still endemic,
and people are traveling. There's constant uh exchange of biological
materials from all over the world, and just because our
country was free of measles doesn't mean it necessarily remains
(21:26):
that way. If it's vaccination, great strop and so it
appears that this has happened. Unfortunately, there's a lot of
misleading information or inaccurate information on the Internet and in
other places, and so it is easy to be concerned
about measles, especially as a parent with a young child
(21:46):
when the question comes up, should this child be vaccinated
or not? Again, I encourage all of your listeners to
look at a variety of sources of information and really
take into account what has been verified by modern science
as a scientific facts in the context of vaccination.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
The website again is Immunology Explained dot org dot org.
A couple more minutes here with doctor Ulivan and Andrean,
professor of IMNA immuno pathology at Harvard Medical School, President
of the American Association of Immunologists. Understandable the continued even
(22:30):
this many years later debate over the COVID vaccine. But
you would think something like like MMR, like DETAP that
has been around literally for generations, there would be less
question about the efficacy and the safety of those vaccines.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Yes, I agree, there has been some debates and that
sort of restarted in recent months about additives to certain vaccines,
like preservatives that you have used to be used in
many vaccine formulations. Most of the vaccines that we used
nowadays actually don't have any of these reagents anymore. To
(23:09):
be clear, these are not the vaccines themselves, but these
are materials that are added to prevent contamination by bacteria.
These are often used when vaccines are used in basically
very large quantities, where you have one bile that has
many doses of the vaccine, and here you have to
(23:29):
be very careful that the vaccine doesn't get contaminated. So
what if nowadays used in your pediatricians office usually, or
in other vaccination settings, are single dose vaccines that usually
don't have these kinds of preservatives, and those vaccines have
been shown by many many studies to be very effective
(23:54):
and very safe.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
What do you say that, despite that to parents who
might still be skeptical about the vaccine schedule for their
children because of what they might see on the internet
or social media or whatever.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Again, you have to inform yourself. You need to know
what it means to make a decision on behalf of
yourself or your child in getting a vaccine or not
getting a vaccine. In many childhood diseases such as measles,
(24:30):
are highly infectious and many kids, and including myself when
I was a child, survive this infection and I think
I'm perfectly fine now. Unfortunately this is not true for
every child, and as some kids die from measle infections,
others have permanent, severe brain damage that is, you know, irreversible,
(24:53):
and this is what we are protecting against. Yes, some
vaccines can have trums inside fixed like day a fever
for a short time, or maybe some discomfort at the
injection site, but these are by and large extremely short
lived and then you're fine and you have protection against.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
The real disease.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
And I think this is sort of a tradeoff. Everyone
needs to consider what risk are you willing to take
as you just make this decision for yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
And we sign one of the outbreaks the measles outbreaks
in Texas earlier this year, I believe it was two
children who died because they were unvaccinated. We've spent a
lot of time already talking about the immunization schedule for children.
I think adult vaccinations obviously get lost and are overlooked.
I personally go and get my flu vaccine every September October,
(25:50):
not because I'm at increased risk of dying. I just
hate getting the flu, and so it's another one of
those things that every year we hear our physicians. My
doctor encourages me to get it, and I go do it.
How important is it for us to just be able
to trust our doctors and take their advice.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
I think this is this is obviously why we have doctors, right,
so they they spend their lives studying how to take
care of our health. And so if you go to
them to get their advice, they give you this advice
for good reasons and based on scientific evidence and clinical experience. Uh,
not to make money or not to uh you know,
(26:32):
espouse some kind of ideology, but based on what we
understand about the human body and how it interacts in
the environment we live in. So I think you have
l advice to take whatever recommendations you get from your
doctor very seriously. Again, everyone has the right to make
(26:52):
a decision about how they want to uh treat their
own body. But I think your we're also have a
responsibility toward our families, toward our neighbors, and that should
also be taken into consideration here.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
What is the biggest myth or misunderstanding that you in
your position here on a regular basis about vaccines.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I think the one common misconception is that you can
actually get infected by vaccines, That vaccines are basically a
version of the pathogen. So the microbe that against if
we want to protect, that can actually cause illness by
causing infection. This in modern vaccines is not the case.
(27:36):
In years past. Some vaccines where what we call attenuated
pathogens that could actually cause infections, but those for the
most part have been replaced by vaccines that cannot actually
have this kind of effect anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
The last thing for you, and medical science is advancing
so fast it seems like every day there are new
reports of how much closer we're getting to a vaccine,
for example, that that can cure certain cancers. How how
far do you think we are from that point where
where we might be able to have a cure at
(28:12):
least protection against these cancers.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
We already have some out there.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yes, yes, many you know. This is an exciting time
to be an immunology focused scientist because we have learned
a great deal about the immune system. To be sure,
there is much more to be learned, but we understand
many of the first principles of how our immune system works,
and we can apply these principles now to divide strategies
(28:39):
to really harness the immune system to deal with diseases,
including cancer. And there are already some cancer vaccines in
the clinics that are now really effective at treating malignant
diseases that used to be incurable, and this is just
the beginning. We are sort of in a golden age
(29:00):
of immunology, am using these kinds of strategies to very
profoundly alter the way you will do medicine in the future.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
They say that knowledge is power, so inform yourself. The
website is Immunology Explained dot Org. Immunology Explained dot org.
He is doctor Uli von Andrey and Professor of Immunopathology
at Harvard Medical School, President of the American Association of Immunologists,
(29:29):
Doctor von andre and I appreciate the time and the information, sir,
be well, thank you as always, I'd love a follow
on Instagram and I follow back at iod Manny is
my handle at iod m A n n Y. And
that'll do it for another edition of Iheartradios Communities.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I'm Manny Muno's until next time.
Welcome to iHeartRadio Communities, a public affairs special focusing on
the biggest issues in facting you this week. Here's many munhos.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And welcome to another edition of Iheartradios Communities. As you heard,
I am Manny Munyo's and I would love a follow
from you on Instagram at iod Manny is my handle
at iod m A n Y. There are a few
things better on a hot summer day than an ice
cold beer, and it just so happens August is International
(00:34):
Beer Month, so we decided to bring on an expert
to talk all things beard. We're joined by doctor Malcolm Parenton.
He's of Northeastern University, teaches the history of beer, alcohol,
and food, and obviously I'm majored in the wrong things.
Doctor Parenton, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Oh, happy to be here, so good talk.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Let me start off off topic and ask you about that.
I'm fascinated with the Discovery Channel series about the brands
that built America?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Are the History Channel? I guess it is. I didn't
realize that was taught in college.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Oh well, so I teach that through multiple different lenses.
So I've been studying the history of beer and researching
and writing about it for the past about twenty years,
and basically I've been using beer as a lens to
look at things like the history of technology, or the
history of society and culture, and the history of business
and education, and seeing how beer like influences and kind
(01:28):
of intersects with all of these aspects of our very
long human experience, going back thousands and thousands of beers.
So when I'm teaching it, it's about learning all these
different aspects of life and the world, but through the
lens of beer and alcohol and how that kind of intersects.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
How old is the history of beer and which civilization
is credited with inventing it?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Well, right now, the oldest evidence that we have of
kind of an intentional like fermentation is like of a
cyril grain of beer, goes back about thirteen thousand years
to a society and neolithics society actually on the eastern
edge of the Mediterranean. So it's it's way way older
than say slice spread or you know, the Wheel or
(02:13):
you know, really a settled civilization at all.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And I imagine by accident that they discovered beer.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Well, so they don't have any written records we're definitely assuming,
definitely an accident, but then one that was then you know,
very fruitful and enjoyable. And so it was continued on
like onwards through the civilizations of like the City Ansumer
of Babylon, of ancient Egypt, and going all the way
through through to the present day.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
How did these things globalize? I guess, like so many
things back then, It's really hard to know, but you
imagine just people moving from one region to another helped beer,
for example, spread across the globe.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Oh absolutely. Actually, when we look at kind of the
beginnings of human civilization of like settled communities who are
like you know, growing things like grain, there's some really
strong evidence pointing to the humans settled down for beer,
like to produce fermented beverages. And this is you could
see this all just kind of like through all these
(03:14):
ancient civilizations, you know, of the fertile crescents Mesopotamia, all
of these areas, and so these areas become centers of culture,
centers of trade, centers of production, and so people would
be coming through. I mean, we find evidence in the
mountains and like the Zagros Mountains in like western Iran
today or also like grain fermentation in Central Asia, you know,
(03:37):
combinations of rice and barley and wheat and other things.
And so with all the trade that builds up over
how the next thousands of years, right the knowledge of
these substances passed across oceans and seas.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Do you do you have a guess what there's a
beer of today that would be closely associated to what
beer might have been like back in those days, because
I can't imagine it was very pleasant to drink.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Well, one of the main ingredients that we use beer
using beer today is one that was not used for
most of human history, and that is hops. So a
nice like green flower, you know, it adds all the
flavor of the bitterness, a lot of the shelf quality
like shelf life quality to beer. But that was actually
only starting to be used in any great amount around
(04:27):
like the twelfth thirteenth centuries. And so if the earliest
the type of beer that we might think of is
being closest to the earliest beers would be called a
gruet today, so an unhopked beer, so beers that would
be including different types of herbs and spices and things
like that that would be found around because like otherwise,
you just kind of have this, you know, really you know,
(04:49):
multi sweet like sugary fermented drink. Right, So people would
put in really anything they found I've got you know,
if you're an ancient egypt you would probably be putting
in dates, you know, or you know, types of fruits,
or adding some honey, or even mixing some wine into
it as well to make you know, a whole different
concoction that were the still of base using like you know, wheat,
(05:11):
barley and so on that we would call a beer.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Almost sounds like some sort of fermented tea.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Definitely, Oh, Gruetz very much have kind of a tea
quality to them, right, And if you get the chance,
I mean, because they don't last for too long, you'll
find them at like you know, small like you know,
craft beer breweries and things like that. They are very unique.
A lot of the breweries will use things like yarrow
and sweet gale and rosemary in them, so they do
tend to be lately on the sweeter side and definitely
(05:41):
have that kind of tea quality to them.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
What is the significance of Pilsner in globalizing beer?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Well, there we goes my book The Globalization in a Glass,
The Rise of Kilsner. Beers who technology taste an empire
is kind of explain why we have one global style
of beer. So this is something that is kind of
wild about the light golden lager, like the Pilsner being
the first one coming out in eighteen forty two. That
see any type I mean, you think about bud buisor
(06:11):
you think about pasts, you think about you know, any
any brewery that has like a national connotation to it.
So like you know Castle in South Africa or Crystal
in Costa Rica and Kuyuba and places like that, or
like Supero, they all have a light golden lagger that
is kind of derivative of that original Pilsner. And so
(06:33):
what happens in the nineteenth century is we see globalization
expanding at a rapid rate, you know through especially through empire,
you know, the British Empire, French Empire, German Empire, and
the transportation through you know, through trains, through steamships, and
beer being a part of all of those aspects. You know,
if you have a starting a colony, say Germany is
(06:55):
starting one in Shanghai, they're gonna found King Dau. You
know what we think of is the Chinese beer br
Or in South Africa British British colony, and they have
Castlelogger by the turn of the twentieth century. And it's
a rather incredible story because it is, you know, after
ten thousands of years, now, you know, over ten thousand years,
we certainly have one style that comes to dominate the
(07:18):
entire globe. And it is light, it is lower in alcohol,
it is refreshing, and it is one that actually has
a nice long shelf life even with being lower in
alcohol and not having that stronger preservative quality that can
come with alcohol. And so it becomes a beer that
kind of represents modernity by the turn of the twentieth century.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Fascinating.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
A few more minutes here with doctor Malcolm Purenton of
Northeastern University teaches the history of beer, alcohol and food.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I imagine one of the difficult things.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Initially anyway, for thousands of years about beer was the
fact that there was no refrigeration. Is it something? Is
beer something that would go bad?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Oh quite quickly too, Yeah, I mean once until people
started using hops regularly. The hops not only you know,
can add you know, flavor, bitterness, like a roam, lots
of great qualities. They also add a strong preservative quality
to them because they act as an antibacterial. Then you
add the alcoholic content and like the boiling process that
goes through with making beer, and you have a beer
(08:21):
that has a longer shelf life. Prior to that, beer
with four refrigeration would be something that would be produced
on a regular, almost daily basis. I mean you have
home brewing, you know, like at the home you would
be brewing beer. You know, you wouldn't be producing it
for a large audience, for a large consumer base until
we get really into like you know, the sixteenth seventeen
(08:42):
eighteenth centuries where you start seeing industrialization playing a big
role and refrigeration. I mean it was even illegal to
brew beer for in many societies and kingdoms across Europe
that from April to October because of the heat of
the summer would make that beer go bad. It wasn't
the heat that's assaily, It was the amount of you know,
(09:03):
lots of microbiomes, you know, like bacteria funded eye wild
yeasts that would also be really attracted that sweet, you know,
sugary water and so make it go all funky and bad.
So refrigeration that comes about in the nineteenth century really
becomes a game changer regardless of your style of beer,
because pilsner, being a lagger beer, needs that colder temperature
(09:25):
both for fermentation and then for the long laggering phase
of that production. So laggering meaning to store in German,
you would be aging that beer for like three six months,
which you need a controlled, like refrigerated environment. So temperatures
had to play a major role throughout the history of beer.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
A few things more satisfying I mentioned in the open
than an ice cold beer. Yet I notice in some
cultures it isn't even in this day and age, they
don't drink it cold. Is there is there a reason
for that?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Yeah, there's actually I mean you think more like the
British audience looking at the cask ales. So it's a
specific type of beer that basically there's still living yeast
in that beer which needs to be at around room
temperature to keep fermenting. So it's a very long kind
of like slow. It adds so much more flavor. If
you have a really nice ice cold beer, that will
(10:19):
be refreshing, but a cold lemonade will also be refreshing.
And if you have a beer that's closer to room temperature,
you'll get a whole lot more flavor coming out of it.
So you'll be able to taste the hops more, you'll
be able to taste the yeast, you'll be able to
taste the grain in a way that you wouldn't if
it's super ice cold. So it can be refreshing, but
you will taste a whole lot more if it's a
little bit warmer.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Right, And then I guess maybe it was in the nineties,
maybe the early two thousands that we saw the rise
at least in the United States of micro brews and
all of these beer pubs. And I guess maybe even
the origins of well, let me let me rephrase that.
What is the origin of the ipa the Indian pale ale?
And how's that different from a pill here for example?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
So the ITA, I mean, has a very curious history
within craft beer movements, but the origins come from kind
of a naming convention of certain beers that are made for
the British Empire in the early nineteenth century. So it
was a beer that style has already been being produced
for sale in the late eighteenth century, but becomes named
(11:23):
in the early nineteenth century. I mean many, I mean billion,
decades and decades after the same style had already been
sent to India with the East India Company trade and
it was a style that was kind of named after
the fact. While for basically craft beer. We started seeing
ipa becoming a thing for craft beer in the nineteen nineties.
(11:46):
For the most part, you have like the East India
pale ale coming from like Brooklyn, and also the Harpoon
Ita coming from the Boston based you know, Harpoon Massachusetts
Bay Brewing Company. And then it really starts catching on
the eight nineties when we start seeing a push for bitterness.
You start seeing kind of like these bitterness battles of
like how happy can you make the beer? When we
(12:08):
start seeing like double IPAs coming out of like Russian
River in California, and even triple IPAs also from Russian River.
Was Pliny the Younger, and he's seeing just like a
push for this bitterness. Because it also that push of
bitterness is so against the flavors of those large macro brewers.
So the perhaps the Schlitz, the Anheuser, Bush, the cores
(12:29):
that all tend to have a more of a sweeter
quality because of like the corn and everything that's being
used in that beer and so producing like an ipa.
It really was in your face macro brew, like we're
going to be making something that is so against not
just you know, the goliath aspect of the is large
international companies, but also against the face of what they
(12:52):
were producing as a flavor too.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I think most of us are familiar obviously with drinking
beer on Saint Patrick's Day green beer, right, or the
month of October, celebrating Octoberfest. Why is August national beer month?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
So this has when things start kind of this is
more going back to like prohibition times where you start
seeing kind of it's a push for really the also
like the lowest month of consumption. You're seeing a lot
of you know kind of like the summer beers and
things like that, but you're seeing the transition going into
the octoberfests and fest beers and even the and the
pumpkin beers of the fall, and so August becoming like
(13:27):
a beer month is kind of offtick the like the
regular route of like the drinking the more you know
notable drinking holidays, October Fest, you know, Oste, Thanksgiving, Christmas,
New Year's going into you know, even Saint Pats s
St Pat's Day also Saint Valentine's Day, and you start
seeing like August becomes a good placement for that nice
(13:49):
national beer month for a point in time where people
aren't drinking as much. So I wa hay to kind
of support like the the industry as a whole.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Is there one beer style or historic year that that
you enjoy most that you think most people should try
and probably haven't heard of.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Oh, it kind of depends on the time of day. Honestly,
the beers that got me into looking at beer were
the Belgian Abbell style, So the Trappist brewers I'm taking
like chemet Blue or Rocqueford or Vestm where I mean,
there's such a unique style. The flavors come through more
from the yeast than they do from the hops, and
(14:28):
they tend to be rather complicated, like really just wonderful
beers to drink out of, like a nice goblin. But
also I just love having, you know, something fun in
this summer. So currently I'm enjoying a like a beer
that's almost it's like a saison, So a beer that's
originally made for the farm workers, like in southern Belgium,
northern France. Something that's light lower and alcohol has kind
(14:52):
of like a nice, you know, touch of flavor coming
from like some coriander and maybe a little bit of
salt in there, which is nice, very refreshing for these
hotter months by the water.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
That sounds fascinating.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Doctor Malcolm Purenton of Northeastern University teaches history of beer,
alcohol and food.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Really really appreciate the time and the information. I thought
it was fascinating.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Hey, thanks so much. Man's had a pleasure to be
on here.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Just a reminder if you have any questions or comments,
you could follow me on Instagram at iod manny as
my handle at iod m a n n y AMID.
Continuing fallout from the handling of the pandemic, the growth
of vaccine hesitancy comes increasing stories about outbreaks of everything
(15:34):
from measles to whooping cough, all of it highlighting the
importance of being immunized. Let's talk about it with doctor
Uli von Andre and, professor of immunu pathology at Harvard
Medical School. He is President of the American Association of Immunologists.
Doctor von Andre and I appreciate the time.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Well, Manny, thank you very much. For having me on.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Increasingly we're being reminded just how important it is to
get our children immunized, especially in this day and age.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
Yes, I agree. My own children, I have twins, are
immunized to various childs with vaccinations am I myself, although
I'm at a generation where some vaccines had not been available,
So I vividly remember having had them meathos as a child,
simply because I didn't have access to the vaccine back then,
(16:27):
and there was fun.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And that reminds us that it's not only children. It's
important for adults, especially adults that might be at risk
for one thing or another, to be immunized as well.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
That is correct. You know, we forget things, and our
immune system can forget things, and some vaccines will have
a finite lifespan for how long they are active, and
then occasional remind us by revaccinations are often very useful
to prevent infectious diseases in older age.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Can you explain it exactly how immunization schedules are developed.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Yeah, So they are based on extensive clinical trials in
thousands of often tens or even hundreds of thousands of patients,
where individuals are given a vaccine in different doses and
in different schedules, and then various measures are being taken
(17:27):
to determine what is the optimal immune response that confers
long term protection.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
We've seen a drop in childhood vaccination rates, especially over
the last few years since the pandemic, but that was
that seemed to be something that was growing even before
we dealt with COVID.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Yes, that is true, unfortunately in many cases, and we
can see the consequences of that with rising measos cases
in parts of the country. Now, I think it is
entirely okay for people to have questions about vaccines, to
(18:09):
understand how they work, to be concerned about potential side effects,
and I think it is important for everybody to inform
themselves about vaccines, how they work, what their effects are.
But the information has to come from trustable sources. In
(18:31):
this regard, I want to make a pitch for my
own organization, the American Association of Immunologists. There are non
partisan organizations with members in fifty different states and also
members in other countries. It's the largest organization of professional immunologists,
which are scientists studying the immune system of its kind,
(18:54):
and we have on our website resources try to explain
in simple terms how vaccines work. So if you go
to Immunology Explain, there you can find all the information
that you may need to make an informed decision.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Immunology Explained is the website.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
That is the that's the name of the well Immunology Explained.
There's a link on the AAI website. You can go
to either that or you can go directly to Immunology
Explained dot org and you will find the information there.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Explain what happens when we see a drop in childhood
vaccination rates.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
You know, if there is a pathogen such as say
the measles virus to stay with this example UH around
it is carried by an individual who is typically sick,
may not even know that he or she is infected,
and then it's in contact with other UH people around them.
(19:58):
If enough of the people don't have existing immunity against
this virus or you know, microbe, then it can spread
to another person and then you have this runaway event
where a highly contagious viruses and measles are among the
most contagious viruses known to man, can then spread in
(20:22):
a community, and that's what we call an epidemic.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
What does someone in your position think when you see
a resurgence of these diseases.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
That we that we basically had gone.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Extinct in our country, like measles, like whooping coffel, what
concerns arise in you?
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah, yeah, you're you're actually absolutely right. In two thousand,
measles have been declared extinct in the United States because
the cases had dropped to such low numbers, and so
perhaps so that we became a victims of our own success,
because if you think a disease is extinct, perhaps you
sort of let your are down a little bit and
(21:01):
find it less important to vaccinate against it. But you know,
there are many other countries where measles are still endemic,
and people are traveling. There's constant uh exchange of biological
materials from all over the world, and just because our
country was free of measles doesn't mean it necessarily remains
(21:26):
that way. If it's vaccination, great strop and so it
appears that this has happened. Unfortunately, there's a lot of
misleading information or inaccurate information on the Internet and in
other places, and so it is easy to be concerned
about measles, especially as a parent with a young child
(21:46):
when the question comes up, should this child be vaccinated
or not? Again, I encourage all of your listeners to
look at a variety of sources of information and really
take into account what has been verified by modern science
as a scientific facts in the context of vaccination.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
The website again is Immunology Explained dot org dot org.
A couple more minutes here with doctor Ulivan and Andrean,
professor of IMNA immuno pathology at Harvard Medical School, President
of the American Association of Immunologists. Understandable the continued even
(22:30):
this many years later debate over the COVID vaccine. But
you would think something like like MMR, like DETAP that
has been around literally for generations, there would be less
question about the efficacy and the safety of those vaccines.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Yes, I agree, there has been some debates and that
sort of restarted in recent months about additives to certain vaccines,
like preservatives that you have used to be used in
many vaccine formulations. Most of the vaccines that we used
nowadays actually don't have any of these reagents anymore. To
(23:09):
be clear, these are not the vaccines themselves, but these
are materials that are added to prevent contamination by bacteria.
These are often used when vaccines are used in basically
very large quantities, where you have one bile that has
many doses of the vaccine, and here you have to
(23:29):
be very careful that the vaccine doesn't get contaminated. So
what if nowadays used in your pediatricians office usually, or
in other vaccination settings, are single dose vaccines that usually
don't have these kinds of preservatives, and those vaccines have
been shown by many many studies to be very effective
(23:54):
and very safe.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
What do you say that, despite that to parents who
might still be skeptical about the vaccine schedule for their
children because of what they might see on the internet
or social media or whatever.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Again, you have to inform yourself. You need to know
what it means to make a decision on behalf of
yourself or your child in getting a vaccine or not
getting a vaccine. In many childhood diseases such as measles,
(24:30):
are highly infectious and many kids, and including myself when
I was a child, survive this infection and I think
I'm perfectly fine now. Unfortunately this is not true for
every child, and as some kids die from measle infections,
others have permanent, severe brain damage that is, you know, irreversible,
(24:53):
and this is what we are protecting against. Yes, some
vaccines can have trums inside fixed like day a fever
for a short time, or maybe some discomfort at the
injection site, but these are by and large extremely short
lived and then you're fine and you have protection against.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
The real disease.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
And I think this is sort of a tradeoff. Everyone
needs to consider what risk are you willing to take
as you just make this decision for yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
And we sign one of the outbreaks the measles outbreaks
in Texas earlier this year, I believe it was two
children who died because they were unvaccinated. We've spent a
lot of time already talking about the immunization schedule for children.
I think adult vaccinations obviously get lost and are overlooked.
I personally go and get my flu vaccine every September October,
(25:50):
not because I'm at increased risk of dying. I just
hate getting the flu, and so it's another one of
those things that every year we hear our physicians. My
doctor encourages me to get it, and I go do it.
How important is it for us to just be able
to trust our doctors and take their advice.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
I think this is this is obviously why we have doctors, right,
so they they spend their lives studying how to take
care of our health. And so if you go to
them to get their advice, they give you this advice
for good reasons and based on scientific evidence and clinical experience. Uh,
not to make money or not to uh you know,
(26:32):
espouse some kind of ideology, but based on what we
understand about the human body and how it interacts in
the environment we live in. So I think you have
l advice to take whatever recommendations you get from your
doctor very seriously. Again, everyone has the right to make
(26:52):
a decision about how they want to uh treat their
own body. But I think your we're also have a
responsibility toward our families, toward our neighbors, and that should
also be taken into consideration here.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
What is the biggest myth or misunderstanding that you in
your position here on a regular basis about vaccines.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I think the one common misconception is that you can
actually get infected by vaccines, That vaccines are basically a
version of the pathogen. So the microbe that against if
we want to protect, that can actually cause illness by
causing infection. This in modern vaccines is not the case.
(27:36):
In years past. Some vaccines where what we call attenuated
pathogens that could actually cause infections, but those for the
most part have been replaced by vaccines that cannot actually
have this kind of effect anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
The last thing for you, and medical science is advancing
so fast it seems like every day there are new
reports of how much closer we're getting to a vaccine,
for example, that that can cure certain cancers. How how
far do you think we are from that point where
where we might be able to have a cure at
(28:12):
least protection against these cancers.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
We already have some out there.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yes, yes, many you know. This is an exciting time
to be an immunology focused scientist because we have learned
a great deal about the immune system. To be sure,
there is much more to be learned, but we understand
many of the first principles of how our immune system works,
and we can apply these principles now to divide strategies
(28:39):
to really harness the immune system to deal with diseases,
including cancer. And there are already some cancer vaccines in
the clinics that are now really effective at treating malignant
diseases that used to be incurable, and this is just
the beginning. We are sort of in a golden age
(29:00):
of immunology, am using these kinds of strategies to very
profoundly alter the way you will do medicine in the future.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
They say that knowledge is power, so inform yourself. The
website is Immunology Explained dot Org. Immunology Explained dot org.
He is doctor Uli von Andrey and Professor of Immunopathology
at Harvard Medical School, President of the American Association of Immunologists,
(29:29):
Doctor von andre and I appreciate the time and the information, sir,
be well, thank you as always, I'd love a follow
on Instagram and I follow back at iod Manny is
my handle at iod m A n n Y. And
that'll do it for another edition of Iheartradios Communities.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
I'm Manny Muno's until next time.
Host
Manny Munoz
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