October 27, 2024 • 33 mins
Jim and Scott discuss an emergency regulation banning baiting for deer and deer carcass transportation in Meade, Breckenridge and Hardin Counties.
The show also featured the true facts about CMD presented by Dr. James Kroll, one of the nation's highly respected deer biologists.
The show also featured the true facts about CMD presented by Dr. James Kroll, one of the nation's highly respected deer biologists.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Doctor, some more problems with some of these tests that
the state biologists are relying upon.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
One of the died, all right, but it died from
being force fed urine the THESS and we get to
saliva salavas, you hit it right on the head of
saliva's probably uh where it gets transmitted. There was a
safe study, uh, used fifty milliters of contaminated saliva, right
(00:32):
and and force fed it to them three poms, and
they all came down with or tested CWD positive. Where
in nature or free ranging deer exposed to fifty milllis
of saliva in three days? So well that justification of
(00:53):
this bating. Now let's let's talk. Let's talk practicality here
a speak guys. If we take them at face value,
what they want to do is reduce the deer herd, right,
reduce the population size.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
All right.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
You take away baiting, and let's face it, be honest here,
modern hunters are not the Daniel boons that we once had.
You take away baiting and you're going to You're going
to do the exact opposite your harvested. I predict your
harvest will go down.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Oh, I don't think there's no question I can guarantee
you upwards of eighty five to ninety percent of the
hunters in Kentucky utilize supplemental feeding and or bait in
their hunting practices. And I would hope that the lobby
(01:47):
in the legislature will understand that banning baiting and feeding
and minerals is going to actually increase the number of
deer because they're gonna be harder to hunt. It's counting
too at this I've.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Got in my Facebook page along I have like I've
got how many a million people look at something and
people are fed up with it, And I've been fascinated
and encouraged by the wisdom that the average landowner hunter
is got out there. They're not being fooled by any
(02:26):
of this stuff. They've been around. I mean, when you know,
when when it first hit in Wisconsin, which by the way,
was brought to you by by scientists in Wisconsin. The
they were the hunters were told that if they didn't
go out there and kill those hundred seventy two thousand years,
that the white fauld hear would be extinct in less
(02:49):
than twenty years in Wisconsin. Well they were, I mean,
hunters are loyal folks. I mean, they want to do
what's right for the wildlife. They went out there and
did the horrible thing of killing those those spots in fonts,
and then they it didn't take them long to figure
out that hey, this didn't work and this this is
not a good idea, and they, as the consequence of
(03:11):
the legislature in Wisconsin, UH put an end to it.
Said it was not it was not h not working.
When we wrote our report, it was interesting. We we
pointed out that it was a failure and the DNR
came back and asked us would we change the wording
and our report to unsuccessful. Well, unsuccessful is failure and
(03:37):
it didn't work.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yep. Well where I went to school, that's what it meant.
I tell you that doctor before break Scott had a
question Scott, you want to repeat it in short order again.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
To just working with these agencies, especially over the last
five to six years and volunteering a lot of these
biologists and technicians administrative staff when they can talk, when
they know it's a safe environment with their cape on
(04:13):
or their patch on or the uniform on. They're exhausted
with CWD efforts and a lot of these folks are
scientists and their biologists and their hunters and fishermen, and
they're just like, man, we're just putting way too much time,
energy and effort into this CWD. And maybe it's their
grouse or their waterfowl or their small game that's getting confused.
(04:36):
But also the things that I see from my perspective
as an agriculture education teacher for over twenty years, is
working with these taxidermist in processors, even working with some
of these employees that work for state agencies. I don't
ever want to see it jump over into the human species.
(05:00):
But where in in your opinion from the the approach
that you can take on radio, where are our shortfalls?
Where do we need to help our departments and their employees,
And how do we as hunters, how do we agree
(05:21):
to disagree and come together on this nationally and not
just destroy the hunting economy and and put anybody's health
at risk.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Well, you're you're describing something that I've experienced myself, as
I have also been confidentially spoken to about these people
have burned out on all this stuff. And as a
matter of fact, one of one of the higher up
guys in the state, the State Animal Disease Department here
(05:52):
in Texas just said he wants it gone. Yeah, they've
had it. They've had it. They realize what is really
happening here and there, and they're burned up on it,
and they they are uh and within the department, they
they have had the fire taken out out of them
for you know, the other species working on the other species.
(06:16):
So I think I think that we're going to see
a major change in the near future. And here in Texas,
our commission the other day for the first time ruled
against the the agency biologists and their recommendations for for
c w d UH in the coming year not never
(06:38):
been heard of. But the commission is is realized that
that it's a political disaster. The whole thing is a disaster. Now,
let's go to what we can do. Let's let's use
let's go to class here and use the the one
positive that you have Vallord County. What should be done. Well,
(07:00):
what we recommended in Wisconsin, which really didn't do, was
that they when you find one that's that just appears
out of nowhere, there, the first thing you do, yes,
you run the two tests, the one that you run
locally and then the one you run at aims or
(07:20):
wherever U. But there's a test called the Western Block
test that can tell right off the bat what kind
of CWD it is. Now on these tss, there are
three kinds of the same thing in humans, it's three kinds.
What one is is genetic, another one is sporadic, and
(07:43):
the third one is infective, the infective one being being
the rarest. And we can run a Western Block test
to see if the if the one that showed up
in Kentucky is indeed, in an effective case, that probably
came over from Missouri or maybe maybe from the south
in Tennessee. I don't know, but what it is if
(08:06):
it's sporadic, uh, it's not. It's not an infectious pathogen,
and we don't need to worry about it. The other
thing is that that we as as hunters in the
general public, we ought to be We recommended putting together
as stakeholder groups that stand ready when one shows up.
(08:26):
And the stakeholder groups there's landowners, hunters, biologists, you know,
everybody has a stake in all of this is is
have them ready and go in and we sample that area.
They've already have a zone put around it. As I understand,
and which is a good idea. And first of all,
(08:47):
we have to define how widespread is the is the infection? Now,
like I talked about earlier in New York, they did
they didn't do that, but they just they did some
some sampling. They found out it was just a single case.
They never found that the test to find out if
it was just a sporadic case or o. So, yeah,
(09:10):
for those doc.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
That are the stakeholders in the economic aspect of it,
as far as maybe they sell feed to use in
supplemental feeding or maybe their processors. What what can you
help us with in the state of Kentucky to bridge
that learning gap in a quick way so that it's
(09:31):
not such an economic impact onto those people we care
so much about and our and our commonwealth's revenue.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
About. By educational you're talking about educating the agency or
educating the the.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
People more or less the business owners, the entrepreneurs, and
the retailers that are that are going to be possibly
negatively impacted by this. How how can we help them?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Well, the first way we can help them is as
the what we did here in Texas is we got
our got Texas A and M to do an economic
study just to say, what what is the economic situation here?
How big an industry is this? What is going to
be the impact? Part of that of the plan that
(10:17):
that the agency put forward should encourage, just like in
most environmental impact statements, should include what is the economic
impact of these actions? And that that's not that's never done.
It it's never done. We need to know what the
economic impact is and it's called benefit.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Well, and you can take from me it will be
a huge, huge negative impact. And I'm concerned about that.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Doc.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I really liked your your idea there about the stakeholders
being involved, because that's been a real problem quite frankly
with our current fish Wilfe mission with the agency in
recent years, and this is due to some leadership that
I've been critical of for that very reason. This particular issue,
(11:11):
I would think would demand public input, would demand that
the sportsman in the state be educated properly, which is
the whole reason that Scott and I wanted to have
you on the program tonight to tell the real true
facts about this disease.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, what what constitute I've studied this a long time. Uh,
what constitutes public impact? Are input into in the wildlife
management issues? They most most of these states do the
exact same things. They'll they'll have a hearing, the public hearing,
or the biologists of tour around the state and they'll
(11:52):
have a public hearing and people will get up and
rail against them and complain and all that sort of stuff,
and just a handful of people show up and they're
mostly the complainers. They really don't, uh, effectively find out
what the public is thinking, what the public wants. There
are better ways to do these things than to have
(12:14):
these public hearings, And every and everybody knows that whatever
they get up and say is not going to change
a thing. I guarantee. People have lost faith all over
the country. Uh, people have lost faith in their state agencies.
I think it's I think it's systematic, systemic, and and
(12:36):
a lot not just in hunting and fishing and that
sort of thing, but in government in general. They've lost
faith that they feel like their opinions don't really.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Matter well, and that's that's a shame. What would be
your advice from working with the other states about how
they could become active and be heard? What what would
your suggestion there be?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, get organized them. A good colleague of mine once
said that that governments feared nothing more than a letter head.
And what he meant was organizations. The hunters are poorly organized.
They always have been for some odd reasons. And and
folks have got have got to get organized and politically
(13:23):
active in all of this. And I'll guarantee you, as
as someone said earlier in this show, the politicians pay attention.
And especially when you start showing economic disadvantage, you realize
and in the areas of Texas now, our our rural
land prices are falling because of CWD. That if if
(13:49):
an area, if a property has had CWD, or it's
in a county where there is CWD, it's hard to
sell land nowadays.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, and to Scott's point, you know, there's just all
kinds of ramivocations. Folks who sell feed, the folks who
sell mineral, the folks that sell you know, all kind
of hunting situations. The outfitters will have a negative impact.
I mean, it's all across the map. I want to
talk about something that goes to the heart of this,
(14:22):
in my opinion, and I want to throw this at you.
The federal government has thrown somewhere in the neighborhood at
four hundred million plus at this situation through a bill
that they passed, and it's being allocated to the states.
And it seems to me like the more positives, the
more money that flows. The more areas that are identified,
(14:44):
more money flows. It's like this is a testing epidemic
instead of a disease epidemic. What are your thoughts about that, Doc,
I mean, I'm gonna follow the trail, follow the money
kind of guy. And I smell money.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Oh, there is money if you follow the money. You know.
I tried to follow the science and I couldn't find it,
but I followed the money and I found it. They
the interest if you noticed it lately, just recently, there's
been this burst of activity in relation to CWD. Well
(15:23):
what got passed a year ago. Well, like you're saying,
a huge bill that has dolen that money to these states,
and they here in Texas, Legas. I mean, they're hiring
new staff and getting all sorts of new vehicles and
all kinds of stuff out of this. It's it's followed
the money, you know. Like I said, I've been assigned
(15:44):
this for fifty years and I've become in the last decade,
I've become terribly disillusioned about the quality of science and
the motivations of folks. Now. A colleague of mine who
were very great scientists I respect so much. He asked
me one day, he said, you know the hardest thing
(16:05):
about doing science nowadays? And I said, what he says,
trying to figure out what they want you to find out?
And there isn't money and and he wasn't being facetious.
It's the truth. You know, there's a different kind of
science and it's not always money. It's agendas. There's a
lot of social agendas that are out there. Now you
(16:28):
realize that that less Yes.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yet to your point, I think there's a lot of
people out there that admit that they're not biologists, they're
not outfitters. They just want the truth. They're just it
doesn't matter if we're talking about hunting or anything. There's
people out there that are willing to admit that they
are not the PhD or they are not the scientists.
They they just want the truth. And I think before
(16:55):
we want to break, we talked about now here we
are that where and what can people trust us? Is
it plays havoc on getting people engaged because it has
impacted people to the point to where they do not
know who they can or cannot listen to. But they've
come to the table humbly and admitted that they don't
(17:16):
have the degree, they don't have the lab, they don't
have the test, they don't even know what you're talking about.
But they care. They admit that they care, and then
they're ignored.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
That's right, and they're they're you know, you can get
an opinion from a scientist has become like lawyers. You know,
you could get an opinion if you're if you're willing
to to pick the right one. And that's nonsense. I mean,
we've we've got a lot to fix in this society.
(17:47):
And you know, when I was going through college, the
three people that had the highest respective in states where
teacher's clergy and and said that isn't there anymore, and
that it's I'm very disappointed in some of my colleagues
(18:09):
what they're what they're doing nowadays, not doing well.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Doc In short course here in the closing minutes, what
would be your recommendation on what the states should do here?
Do you have a strong recommendation that you would prefer?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, I do follow, you know, do what we recommended
in in UH Wisconsin. We we recommended UH using a
what we call a wildfire model, and that was, when
you fight a wildfire, you guard against spark outs. Okay, Uh,
and you fight the spark outs and you can and
(18:52):
you contain the fire. And right now, all you've got,
you've got one piece of information. You've got a positive deer.
The first thing is again, pull the people in. Don't
do like they're doing in Missouri where they're sending that
letter saying they're going to come to the landowners and
shoot their deer. But go out there and involved. Involve
(19:14):
the public and the gathering of information. Involve the public
in your research and I'll guarantee you people can. This
has worked for us for a long time in deer management.
People can't argue with the information that they helped collect.
So get them involved in it at the grassroots level.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Okay, Doc, thank you, and folks, we got to go
a quick break. This break is presented by Martial Property's
Heart Realty. Check the listings at m O p h
A r Trealty dot com. Economic impact of this precipitous decision, UH,
specifically about crop and auto dammit, you want to talk
(19:59):
about about that?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Well, with folks not being sure yet and not enough
info known, you don't want to see over regulation by
state government in any state amongst our hunting community for unknowns.
But what is known, well, what's known this week from
(20:23):
my communication with farmers and ranchers and hunters and insurance
agents from states that have been dealing with CWD for
a longer time period than we have in a bigger picture,
they have seen where they're having more crop damage reports
(20:43):
turned in. They're seeing where they're having more auto collision
hits and damage. And there's a really bad reason for this,
gem Straighter, and that is we are creating a scale
and a panic and states where people are not going
(21:05):
hunting because they are misinformed about CWD. If people do
not think that they can consume meet safely and they
think that these deer are running around with some type
of health problem that's going to impact their human life,
(21:26):
it creates a problem because it reduces the amount of
people that are going to the field to hunt. And
we both advocate on how important it is to have
young children, boys and girls, and men and women to
go to the field and hunt and fish. And when
you speak with people who are nationally renowned experts. They
(21:53):
tell you to do your part, follow research that's been provided,
look at the amount of money that is out there,
and come to your own conclusion, and don't let just
state game agencies dictate and determine what you're supposed to
think about this CWD issue.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Well, and I think that's vitally important in this particular
case for variety of reasons. Number one, this was a
captive deer and a pen facility, and we still don't
have the details. One of the things that was so
egregious about that meeting was they didn't even have their
facts from the department at HAG who tested the deer.
(22:39):
That was just ludicrous. Secondarily, they didn't invite the public.
They didn't put out and notice far enough ahead and
I will tell folks they're listening. Please if you can
and you're from those counties again, Breakridge meet and Harden,
go to this meeting. Will help get the word out.
(23:00):
Schedule for November seventh. Listen to what doctor Crohl said,
be well armed with your information and asking the hard questions.
Don't be intimidated by well, we know better, because you
know what, there's too much money driving this train.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Now and It's a great time, too, Jim, for people
to understand that the other states that are willing to
share their advice with with hunters, they'll tell you to
be braced and be ready for more of it to
show up and to prepare that you'll hear more about it.
But it's a great time that people realize too. They
(23:40):
don't get EHD confused with CWD, but EHD can decimate
a herd very quickly. We have to realize that as
this progresses, it's going to be the significance of the
sportsmen and women's vulne to advocate.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
And let how they.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Feel see structured in what regulations and what rules are
put in the place. You need to understand what I'm saying.
I'm saying that if you can pick and send an email,
or you can go to the meeting, stand up and
stand for what you believe in, don't be afraid to
(24:28):
voice your opinion and to share what you know, and
to be very much activated and engaged with what's to come.
It's important that our dear density issues and that the
way that we address this problem moving forward from what's
happened from this past week's episodes, that we as a sportsman.
(24:51):
Like I told you in the beginning, we as the
sportsman should be the ultimate and the final decision as
a management tool and conservation. Hunting and the ways in
which we hunt should come from our voice, in the
ways that we know that our best because we're spending
time afield and we care about the resource. Many hunters
(25:15):
are so often stereotyped in such a negative way.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
But folks, this is a.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Time where we as a hunting community can show how
much we care about this particular species are state and
those that come in and those that live right here
that take part in something that is drastically up for
risk as far as economics. If we don't take a
(25:45):
voice and have a stand, our commissioners need to hear
from us, and Jim, I just want to go on
record to say our commissioner should be voting and stating
what the people in their district have to say, not
what this their individual opinion is.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Well to that point, I will return to something I
said in the first hour. Commissioner Matt Rhoades from the
third District made the statement that stopping baiting would seem
counterintuitive if we need to kill lots of deer to
sample I think that is a very cogent statement. It
was measured and he's to be applauded, and he refused
(26:29):
to vote for the measure. Commissioner cecil from the fourth
we don't have enough info. There needs to be time
so lets some people aren't drawn into this given citations
for baiting for deer, which has been legal in the past.
And the thing that's really odd about this is that
(26:53):
those two individuals asked all the right questions. Those two
individuals obviously felt like there wasn't enough information. And you
know what, those districts are the ones affected by this
baiting bank man, and danged if the other commissioners didn't
vote against them. I've not seen that happen before. That's
(27:13):
a shame on those other commissioners for not having enough
information to refute what they were being told at that
table by Gabe Jenkins. And this deal about oh, it's
okay to leave your bait out if it's already there,
it's okay to leave your mineral out if it's already there,
but you can't put more out. That's the most nonsensical,
(27:34):
stupid statement I believe I've ever heard in a commission
meeting ever and that's sending a mouthful. All right, folks,
gotta go to break here. This break is presented by
SMI Marine. Go see them to take great care of you. Remember,
you never get soaked at SMI. You're gonna have to
adapt very quickly to this because they thrust the hardy
(27:55):
right before gun season. Talk about that, because it never
was mentioned at the meeting.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
When you take in consideration that hunters travel cross county
lines and state lines, it's going to have an impact
on how you handle your processing, your transportation of the
animal itself, taxidermy work. And let's let me just give
(28:24):
you an example. Jim, say that me and you live
in Hancock County and we go into Breckenridge County and
we hunt, and say we want to harvest a couple
of dose on a Sunday afternoon. Well, traditionally we could
just put those deer in the vehicle, go home, and
we could draw off at a processor. We could you know,
we just scott free. We would just go home and
(28:47):
do what we want to with the deer. Well, we
can't go outside of that zone now, and so those
deer would need to be deboned and that meat would
have to be packed in such a way that we
don't have any time of issues with going against the
CWD surveillance. And this is going to impact people because
(29:09):
if they want to take their deer to a taxidermist,
if they want to take their deer to a processor,
if they want to take their deer, you know, home,
whatever it is that they're going to have to make
sure that they understand. And it's not real easy to
understand at a glance. You can move within those counties,
but you can't go outside those counties. Or for example,
(29:32):
say that you're in Oldham County or Trimble County, you
can take your deer harvested there and take it over
to the same webs for processing, but you can't necessarily
leave those counties. Breckinridge, harden me and go, let's say
back to your home county. You're not going to be
able to transport those deer without following the regulations. Now,
(29:55):
there's ways in what you can do this. You're going
to have to either learn how or have someone else,
you know, cape your deer. You're gonna have to talk
with your taxidermists, You're gonna have to talk with whoever
you utilize on processing and shout out to Trade Webb
and their staff for what they did this past week
with trying to get people informed with how to bring
(30:17):
products in and what can be brought in and what
can't be But it basically bowls down to this gym.
Folks that hunt in Breckenridge County, Mead County, Hardin County,
and all of the counties west of the state that
(30:38):
are in the CWD surveillance zone, they really need to
pick up the phone and call the conservation officer or
call Frankfort and have them explain to them what they
need to do in order to transport or harvest deer
in these counties and get online and look at the
information that's out there, because what I don't want to see.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I don't want to see a.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Bunch of law abiding sportsmen and women breaking the law
and at least adapt to what we need to do
to help advocate for what the state's telling us is
what's best to do with CWD being part of our
deer season now and even more counties for the twenty
(31:23):
twenty four to twenty five season. And it's gonna be interesting, Jim,
with the amount of testing that's going on. Who else
and where else it's gonna pop this year. I'm not
looking forward to deer season for the first time in
my life for the reason of what doctor Crowe was saying.
You know, he mentioned that he thought that the hardest
(31:45):
part his colleague, the hardest part of science now is
trying to find the answer that they want. And Jim, I,
I'll just tell you, I think that we're looking for
a problem. I think we're looking for a problem. If
you dig hard enough, and if you control things to
the level and what they're being controlled, you can create
(32:06):
a problem when there's not a problem there.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Absolutely. I think that's very well said. Now, folks, I'll
ask you a couple of things. Do yourself a favor
and go to the Kentucky Department of Fishing while Life
Resources website and bring up that commission meeting it was
last Tuesday, this past Tuesday. And see for your own
(32:30):
self the questions that never were answered that should have
been answered. See for yourself that they didn't even follow
their own guidelines. If I had been sitting at that table,
what I would have been hammered at is we need checkstations.
Hunters will obey that that is an inconvenience but I
(32:50):
don't think they minded that. But tell them they can't
bake deer when there's no definitive science showing that that
spread CWD is asking way too much and it's gonna
make some uns unsuspecting people illegal. Number one, and number two,
(33:11):
it's just gonna decrease the kill, which is the whole objective.
If they have followed their own guideline and done the
tech stations and allow people to bate to harvest more deer,
the hunters would have done their part.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
But
Doctor, some more problems with some of these tests that
the state biologists are relying upon.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
One of the died, all right, but it died from
being force fed urine the THESS and we get to
saliva salavas, you hit it right on the head of
saliva's probably uh where it gets transmitted. There was a
safe study, uh, used fifty milliters of contaminated saliva, right
(00:32):
and and force fed it to them three poms, and
they all came down with or tested CWD positive. Where
in nature or free ranging deer exposed to fifty milllis
of saliva in three days? So well that justification of
(00:53):
this bating. Now let's let's talk. Let's talk practicality here
a speak guys. If we take them at face value,
what they want to do is reduce the deer herd, right,
reduce the population size.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
All right.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
You take away baiting, and let's face it, be honest here,
modern hunters are not the Daniel boons that we once had.
You take away baiting and you're going to You're going
to do the exact opposite your harvested. I predict your
harvest will go down.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Oh, I don't think there's no question I can guarantee
you upwards of eighty five to ninety percent of the
hunters in Kentucky utilize supplemental feeding and or bait in
their hunting practices. And I would hope that the lobby
(01:47):
in the legislature will understand that banning baiting and feeding
and minerals is going to actually increase the number of
deer because they're gonna be harder to hunt. It's counting
too at this I've.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Got in my Facebook page along I have like I've
got how many a million people look at something and
people are fed up with it, And I've been fascinated
and encouraged by the wisdom that the average landowner hunter
is got out there. They're not being fooled by any
(02:26):
of this stuff. They've been around. I mean, when you know,
when when it first hit in Wisconsin, which by the way,
was brought to you by by scientists in Wisconsin. The
they were the hunters were told that if they didn't
go out there and kill those hundred seventy two thousand years,
that the white fauld hear would be extinct in less
(02:49):
than twenty years in Wisconsin. Well they were, I mean,
hunters are loyal folks. I mean, they want to do
what's right for the wildlife. They went out there and
did the horrible thing of killing those those spots in fonts,
and then they it didn't take them long to figure
out that hey, this didn't work and this this is
not a good idea, and they, as the consequence of
(03:11):
the legislature in Wisconsin, UH put an end to it.
Said it was not it was not h not working.
When we wrote our report, it was interesting. We we
pointed out that it was a failure and the DNR
came back and asked us would we change the wording
and our report to unsuccessful. Well, unsuccessful is failure and
(03:37):
it didn't work.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yep. Well where I went to school, that's what it meant.
I tell you that doctor before break Scott had a
question Scott, you want to repeat it in short order again.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
To just working with these agencies, especially over the last
five to six years and volunteering a lot of these
biologists and technicians administrative staff when they can talk, when
they know it's a safe environment with their cape on
(04:13):
or their patch on or the uniform on. They're exhausted
with CWD efforts and a lot of these folks are
scientists and their biologists and their hunters and fishermen, and
they're just like, man, we're just putting way too much time,
energy and effort into this CWD. And maybe it's their
grouse or their waterfowl or their small game that's getting confused.
(04:36):
But also the things that I see from my perspective
as an agriculture education teacher for over twenty years, is
working with these taxidermist in processors, even working with some
of these employees that work for state agencies. I don't
ever want to see it jump over into the human species.
(05:00):
But where in in your opinion from the the approach
that you can take on radio, where are our shortfalls?
Where do we need to help our departments and their employees,
And how do we as hunters, how do we agree
(05:21):
to disagree and come together on this nationally and not
just destroy the hunting economy and and put anybody's health
at risk.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Well, you're you're describing something that I've experienced myself, as
I have also been confidentially spoken to about these people
have burned out on all this stuff. And as a
matter of fact, one of one of the higher up
guys in the state, the State Animal Disease Department here
(05:52):
in Texas just said he wants it gone. Yeah, they've
had it. They've had it. They realize what is really
happening here and there, and they're burned up on it,
and they they are uh and within the department, they
they have had the fire taken out out of them
for you know, the other species working on the other species.
(06:16):
So I think I think that we're going to see
a major change in the near future. And here in Texas,
our commission the other day for the first time ruled
against the the agency biologists and their recommendations for for
c w d UH in the coming year not never
(06:38):
been heard of. But the commission is is realized that
that it's a political disaster. The whole thing is a disaster. Now,
let's go to what we can do. Let's let's use
let's go to class here and use the the one
positive that you have Vallord County. What should be done. Well,
(07:00):
what we recommended in Wisconsin, which really didn't do, was
that they when you find one that's that just appears
out of nowhere, there, the first thing you do, yes,
you run the two tests, the one that you run
locally and then the one you run at aims or
(07:20):
wherever U. But there's a test called the Western Block
test that can tell right off the bat what kind
of CWD it is. Now on these tss, there are
three kinds of the same thing in humans, it's three kinds.
What one is is genetic, another one is sporadic, and
(07:43):
the third one is infective, the infective one being being
the rarest. And we can run a Western Block test
to see if the if the one that showed up
in Kentucky is indeed, in an effective case, that probably
came over from Missouri or maybe maybe from the south
in Tennessee. I don't know, but what it is if
(08:06):
it's sporadic, uh, it's not. It's not an infectious pathogen,
and we don't need to worry about it. The other
thing is that that we as as hunters in the
general public, we ought to be We recommended putting together
as stakeholder groups that stand ready when one shows up.
(08:26):
And the stakeholder groups there's landowners, hunters, biologists, you know,
everybody has a stake in all of this is is
have them ready and go in and we sample that area.
They've already have a zone put around it. As I understand,
and which is a good idea. And first of all,
(08:47):
we have to define how widespread is the is the infection? Now,
like I talked about earlier in New York, they did
they didn't do that, but they just they did some
some sampling. They found out it was just a single case.
They never found that the test to find out if
it was just a sporadic case or o. So, yeah,
(09:10):
for those doc.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
That are the stakeholders in the economic aspect of it,
as far as maybe they sell feed to use in
supplemental feeding or maybe their processors. What what can you
help us with in the state of Kentucky to bridge
that learning gap in a quick way so that it's
(09:31):
not such an economic impact onto those people we care
so much about and our and our commonwealth's revenue.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
About. By educational you're talking about educating the agency or
educating the the.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
People more or less the business owners, the entrepreneurs, and
the retailers that are that are going to be possibly
negatively impacted by this. How how can we help them?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Well, the first way we can help them is as
the what we did here in Texas is we got
our got Texas A and M to do an economic
study just to say, what what is the economic situation here?
How big an industry is this? What is going to
be the impact? Part of that of the plan that
(10:17):
that the agency put forward should encourage, just like in
most environmental impact statements, should include what is the economic
impact of these actions? And that that's not that's never done.
It it's never done. We need to know what the
economic impact is and it's called benefit.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Well, and you can take from me it will be
a huge, huge negative impact. And I'm concerned about that.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Doc.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I really liked your your idea there about the stakeholders
being involved, because that's been a real problem quite frankly
with our current fish Wilfe mission with the agency in
recent years, and this is due to some leadership that
I've been critical of for that very reason. This particular issue,
(11:11):
I would think would demand public input, would demand that
the sportsman in the state be educated properly, which is
the whole reason that Scott and I wanted to have
you on the program tonight to tell the real true
facts about this disease.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, what what constitute I've studied this a long time. Uh,
what constitutes public impact? Are input into in the wildlife
management issues? They most most of these states do the
exact same things. They'll they'll have a hearing, the public hearing,
or the biologists of tour around the state and they'll
(11:52):
have a public hearing and people will get up and
rail against them and complain and all that sort of stuff,
and just a handful of people show up and they're
mostly the complainers. They really don't, uh, effectively find out
what the public is thinking, what the public wants. There
are better ways to do these things than to have
(12:14):
these public hearings, And every and everybody knows that whatever
they get up and say is not going to change
a thing. I guarantee. People have lost faith all over
the country. Uh, people have lost faith in their state agencies.
I think it's I think it's systematic, systemic, and and
(12:36):
a lot not just in hunting and fishing and that
sort of thing, but in government in general. They've lost
faith that they feel like their opinions don't really.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Matter well, and that's that's a shame. What would be
your advice from working with the other states about how
they could become active and be heard? What what would
your suggestion there be?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, get organized them. A good colleague of mine once
said that that governments feared nothing more than a letter head.
And what he meant was organizations. The hunters are poorly organized.
They always have been for some odd reasons. And and
folks have got have got to get organized and politically
(13:23):
active in all of this. And I'll guarantee you, as
as someone said earlier in this show, the politicians pay attention.
And especially when you start showing economic disadvantage, you realize
and in the areas of Texas now, our our rural
land prices are falling because of CWD. That if if
(13:49):
an area, if a property has had CWD, or it's
in a county where there is CWD, it's hard to
sell land nowadays.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, and to Scott's point, you know, there's just all
kinds of ramivocations. Folks who sell feed, the folks who
sell mineral, the folks that sell you know, all kind
of hunting situations. The outfitters will have a negative impact.
I mean, it's all across the map. I want to
talk about something that goes to the heart of this,
(14:22):
in my opinion, and I want to throw this at you.
The federal government has thrown somewhere in the neighborhood at
four hundred million plus at this situation through a bill
that they passed, and it's being allocated to the states.
And it seems to me like the more positives, the
more money that flows. The more areas that are identified,
(14:44):
more money flows. It's like this is a testing epidemic
instead of a disease epidemic. What are your thoughts about that, Doc,
I mean, I'm gonna follow the trail, follow the money
kind of guy. And I smell money.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Oh, there is money if you follow the money. You know.
I tried to follow the science and I couldn't find it,
but I followed the money and I found it. They
the interest if you noticed it lately, just recently, there's
been this burst of activity in relation to CWD. Well
(15:23):
what got passed a year ago. Well, like you're saying,
a huge bill that has dolen that money to these states,
and they here in Texas, Legas. I mean, they're hiring
new staff and getting all sorts of new vehicles and
all kinds of stuff out of this. It's it's followed
the money, you know. Like I said, I've been assigned
(15:44):
this for fifty years and I've become in the last decade,
I've become terribly disillusioned about the quality of science and
the motivations of folks. Now. A colleague of mine who
were very great scientists I respect so much. He asked
me one day, he said, you know the hardest thing
(16:05):
about doing science nowadays? And I said, what he says,
trying to figure out what they want you to find out?
And there isn't money and and he wasn't being facetious.
It's the truth. You know, there's a different kind of
science and it's not always money. It's agendas. There's a
lot of social agendas that are out there. Now you
(16:28):
realize that that less Yes.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yet to your point, I think there's a lot of
people out there that admit that they're not biologists, they're
not outfitters. They just want the truth. They're just it
doesn't matter if we're talking about hunting or anything. There's
people out there that are willing to admit that they
are not the PhD or they are not the scientists.
They they just want the truth. And I think before
(16:55):
we want to break, we talked about now here we
are that where and what can people trust us? Is
it plays havoc on getting people engaged because it has
impacted people to the point to where they do not
know who they can or cannot listen to. But they've
come to the table humbly and admitted that they don't
(17:16):
have the degree, they don't have the lab, they don't
have the test, they don't even know what you're talking about.
But they care. They admit that they care, and then
they're ignored.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
That's right, and they're they're you know, you can get
an opinion from a scientist has become like lawyers. You know,
you could get an opinion if you're if you're willing
to to pick the right one. And that's nonsense. I mean,
we've we've got a lot to fix in this society.
(17:47):
And you know, when I was going through college, the
three people that had the highest respective in states where
teacher's clergy and and said that isn't there anymore, and
that it's I'm very disappointed in some of my colleagues
(18:09):
what they're what they're doing nowadays, not doing well.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Doc In short course here in the closing minutes, what
would be your recommendation on what the states should do here?
Do you have a strong recommendation that you would prefer?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, I do follow, you know, do what we recommended
in in UH Wisconsin. We we recommended UH using a
what we call a wildfire model, and that was, when
you fight a wildfire, you guard against spark outs. Okay, Uh,
and you fight the spark outs and you can and
(18:52):
you contain the fire. And right now, all you've got,
you've got one piece of information. You've got a positive deer.
The first thing is again, pull the people in. Don't
do like they're doing in Missouri where they're sending that
letter saying they're going to come to the landowners and
shoot their deer. But go out there and involved. Involve
(19:14):
the public and the gathering of information. Involve the public
in your research and I'll guarantee you people can. This
has worked for us for a long time in deer management.
People can't argue with the information that they helped collect.
So get them involved in it at the grassroots level.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Okay, Doc, thank you, and folks, we got to go
a quick break. This break is presented by Martial Property's
Heart Realty. Check the listings at m O p h
A r Trealty dot com. Economic impact of this precipitous decision, UH,
specifically about crop and auto dammit, you want to talk
(19:59):
about about that?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Well, with folks not being sure yet and not enough
info known, you don't want to see over regulation by
state government in any state amongst our hunting community for unknowns.
But what is known, well, what's known this week from
(20:23):
my communication with farmers and ranchers and hunters and insurance
agents from states that have been dealing with CWD for
a longer time period than we have in a bigger picture,
they have seen where they're having more crop damage reports
(20:43):
turned in. They're seeing where they're having more auto collision
hits and damage. And there's a really bad reason for this,
gem Straighter, and that is we are creating a scale
and a panic and states where people are not going
(21:05):
hunting because they are misinformed about CWD. If people do
not think that they can consume meet safely and they
think that these deer are running around with some type
of health problem that's going to impact their human life,
(21:26):
it creates a problem because it reduces the amount of
people that are going to the field to hunt. And
we both advocate on how important it is to have
young children, boys and girls, and men and women to
go to the field and hunt and fish. And when
you speak with people who are nationally renowned experts. They
(21:53):
tell you to do your part, follow research that's been provided,
look at the amount of money that is out there,
and come to your own conclusion, and don't let just
state game agencies dictate and determine what you're supposed to
think about this CWD issue.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Well, and I think that's vitally important in this particular
case for variety of reasons. Number one, this was a
captive deer and a pen facility, and we still don't
have the details. One of the things that was so
egregious about that meeting was they didn't even have their
facts from the department at HAG who tested the deer.
(22:39):
That was just ludicrous. Secondarily, they didn't invite the public.
They didn't put out and notice far enough ahead and
I will tell folks they're listening. Please if you can
and you're from those counties again, Breakridge meet and Harden,
go to this meeting. Will help get the word out.
(23:00):
Schedule for November seventh. Listen to what doctor Crohl said,
be well armed with your information and asking the hard questions.
Don't be intimidated by well, we know better, because you
know what, there's too much money driving this train.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Now and It's a great time, too, Jim, for people
to understand that the other states that are willing to
share their advice with with hunters, they'll tell you to
be braced and be ready for more of it to
show up and to prepare that you'll hear more about it.
But it's a great time that people realize too. They
(23:40):
don't get EHD confused with CWD, but EHD can decimate
a herd very quickly. We have to realize that as
this progresses, it's going to be the significance of the
sportsmen and women's vulne to advocate.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
And let how they.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Feel see structured in what regulations and what rules are
put in the place. You need to understand what I'm saying.
I'm saying that if you can pick and send an email,
or you can go to the meeting, stand up and
stand for what you believe in, don't be afraid to
(24:28):
voice your opinion and to share what you know, and
to be very much activated and engaged with what's to come.
It's important that our dear density issues and that the
way that we address this problem moving forward from what's
happened from this past week's episodes, that we as a sportsman.
(24:51):
Like I told you in the beginning, we as the
sportsman should be the ultimate and the final decision as
a management tool and conservation. Hunting and the ways in
which we hunt should come from our voice, in the
ways that we know that our best because we're spending
time afield and we care about the resource. Many hunters
(25:15):
are so often stereotyped in such a negative way.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
But folks, this is a.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Time where we as a hunting community can show how
much we care about this particular species are state and
those that come in and those that live right here
that take part in something that is drastically up for
risk as far as economics. If we don't take a
(25:45):
voice and have a stand, our commissioners need to hear
from us, and Jim, I just want to go on
record to say our commissioner should be voting and stating
what the people in their district have to say, not
what this their individual opinion is.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Well to that point, I will return to something I
said in the first hour. Commissioner Matt Rhoades from the
third District made the statement that stopping baiting would seem
counterintuitive if we need to kill lots of deer to
sample I think that is a very cogent statement. It
was measured and he's to be applauded, and he refused
(26:29):
to vote for the measure. Commissioner cecil from the fourth
we don't have enough info. There needs to be time
so lets some people aren't drawn into this given citations
for baiting for deer, which has been legal in the past.
And the thing that's really odd about this is that
(26:53):
those two individuals asked all the right questions. Those two
individuals obviously felt like there wasn't enough information. And you
know what, those districts are the ones affected by this
baiting bank man, and danged if the other commissioners didn't
vote against them. I've not seen that happen before. That's
(27:13):
a shame on those other commissioners for not having enough
information to refute what they were being told at that
table by Gabe Jenkins. And this deal about oh, it's
okay to leave your bait out if it's already there,
it's okay to leave your mineral out if it's already there,
but you can't put more out. That's the most nonsensical,
(27:34):
stupid statement I believe I've ever heard in a commission
meeting ever and that's sending a mouthful. All right, folks,
gotta go to break here. This break is presented by
SMI Marine. Go see them to take great care of you. Remember,
you never get soaked at SMI. You're gonna have to
adapt very quickly to this because they thrust the hardy
(27:55):
right before gun season. Talk about that, because it never
was mentioned at the meeting.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
When you take in consideration that hunters travel cross county
lines and state lines, it's going to have an impact
on how you handle your processing, your transportation of the
animal itself, taxidermy work. And let's let me just give
(28:24):
you an example. Jim, say that me and you live
in Hancock County and we go into Breckenridge County and
we hunt, and say we want to harvest a couple
of dose on a Sunday afternoon. Well, traditionally we could
just put those deer in the vehicle, go home, and
we could draw off at a processor. We could you know,
we just scott free. We would just go home and
(28:47):
do what we want to with the deer. Well, we
can't go outside of that zone now, and so those
deer would need to be deboned and that meat would
have to be packed in such a way that we
don't have any time of issues with going against the
CWD surveillance. And this is going to impact people because
(29:09):
if they want to take their deer to a taxidermist,
if they want to take their deer to a processor,
if they want to take their deer, you know, home,
whatever it is that they're going to have to make
sure that they understand. And it's not real easy to
understand at a glance. You can move within those counties,
but you can't go outside those counties. Or for example,
(29:32):
say that you're in Oldham County or Trimble County, you
can take your deer harvested there and take it over
to the same webs for processing, but you can't necessarily
leave those counties. Breckinridge, harden me and go, let's say
back to your home county. You're not going to be
able to transport those deer without following the regulations. Now,
(29:55):
there's ways in what you can do this. You're going
to have to either learn how or have someone else,
you know, cape your deer. You're gonna have to talk
with your taxidermists, You're gonna have to talk with whoever
you utilize on processing and shout out to Trade Webb
and their staff for what they did this past week
with trying to get people informed with how to bring
(30:17):
products in and what can be brought in and what
can't be But it basically bowls down to this gym.
Folks that hunt in Breckenridge County, Mead County, Hardin County,
and all of the counties west of the state that
(30:38):
are in the CWD surveillance zone, they really need to
pick up the phone and call the conservation officer or
call Frankfort and have them explain to them what they
need to do in order to transport or harvest deer
in these counties and get online and look at the
information that's out there, because what I don't want to see.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I don't want to see a.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Bunch of law abiding sportsmen and women breaking the law
and at least adapt to what we need to do
to help advocate for what the state's telling us is
what's best to do with CWD being part of our
deer season now and even more counties for the twenty
(31:23):
twenty four to twenty five season. And it's gonna be interesting, Jim,
with the amount of testing that's going on. Who else
and where else it's gonna pop this year. I'm not
looking forward to deer season for the first time in
my life for the reason of what doctor Crowe was saying.
You know, he mentioned that he thought that the hardest
(31:45):
part his colleague, the hardest part of science now is
trying to find the answer that they want. And Jim, I,
I'll just tell you, I think that we're looking for
a problem. I think we're looking for a problem. If
you dig hard enough, and if you control things to
the level and what they're being controlled, you can create
(32:06):
a problem when there's not a problem there.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Absolutely. I think that's very well said. Now, folks, I'll
ask you a couple of things. Do yourself a favor
and go to the Kentucky Department of Fishing while Life
Resources website and bring up that commission meeting it was
last Tuesday, this past Tuesday. And see for your own
(32:30):
self the questions that never were answered that should have
been answered. See for yourself that they didn't even follow
their own guidelines. If I had been sitting at that table,
what I would have been hammered at is we need checkstations.
Hunters will obey that that is an inconvenience but I
(32:50):
don't think they minded that. But tell them they can't
bake deer when there's no definitive science showing that that
spread CWD is asking way too much and it's gonna
make some uns unsuspecting people illegal. Number one, and number two,
(33:11):
it's just gonna decrease the kill, which is the whole objective.
If they have followed their own guideline and done the
tech stations and allow people to bate to harvest more deer,
the hunters would have done their part.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
But
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