Beloved Best-Selling Author Sy Montgomery's "Secrets of The Octopus"

Maria chats with returning guest Sy Montgomery (who's been referred to as The Octopus Whisperer)
about her new book SECRETS OF THE OCTOPUS!
Sy teaches us about octopus and their ways and why we are fascinated by them--they're shapeshifters!!
The book also has gorgeous close-ups of them in their environment. Listen and Learn!

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. Whata great idea on iHeartRadio. Welcome to
Maria's MutS and Stuff. That's theofficial open. But yes, okay,
so when I saw that you hadanother book, and I was like,
wait, I know I spoke toher. I know I did, so,
I remember, I remember, right. That was a ways ago.

(00:25):
Let's see twenty twenty. Was thatfor Jenny the Pink Dolphin? It was?
Uh no, it was the bigcoffee table book Jellyfish Octopus. It's
this big, gorgeous cause I didn'tI didn't write that one. I didn't
write in but you were part ofit because I interviewed you. I believe
with that book. Is that possible? I think it was. I think

(00:47):
that was a national geographic book thatyou were involved with. I was not.
You weren't. But but I havewritten thirty eight books all about animals.
So so it would be very strangeif we hadn't met. Actually,
okay, no, all of mystuff. It might have been about,
say this is twenty twenty though,yeah, twenty twenty. It was.

(01:10):
Yeah, it was January thirtieth,twenty twenty. Oh you know what,
it might have been a good,good pig. It could be, because
you know what I know. Nope, it wasn't at all. I know
exactly what it was. Okay,I know it all right. I believe
I had seen you on CBS Sundaymorning, and I think I reached out
to you and you reached out tome. You're absolutely right, right,

(01:34):
octopus. It was about, yes, and because I love octopus and it
was all about the octopus interview thatyou did on CBS. YEA, good
enough. Well, anyway, congratulationson your new book, Secrets of the
Octopus. And for those who arejust tuning in and saying, okay,
you guys are talking like you justwent out for tea, Like what's going

(01:56):
on. She is a national bestselling author, and she's an animal naturalist
and just someone who I'm so fascinatedwith because she just has just so much
information. It is Si Montgomery.Thank you again for talking with me and
so this book. First of all, I know you've been referred to as

(02:19):
an octopus whisperer. You know that, yes, yes, okay, let's
talk about that. Tell tell myaudience, why do people think or know
that you're the octopus whisperer. Well, it's because I've spent a long time
with my hands and arms in octopustanks, communing with these very intelligent,

(02:42):
emotional animals. And for the bookthat we first spoke about, which was
called The Soul of an Octopus,I spent three years getting to know individual
octopuses, seeing them every week,sometimes more than once, spending hours just
communing with them and talking also withresearchers who had been investigating their intelligence and

(03:06):
divers who had observed their behavior.I actually learned scuba diving so that I
could meet octopuses in the wild.I remember that YE did that, which
was pretty awesome when that book cameout. I mean first, the idea
of an octopus having a soul wasintriguing to many people. To me,

(03:27):
I kind of feel like if Ihave a soul. They particularly animals who
I knew as friends and who welcomed. They turned bright red with excitement when
they saw me and came from theirlayir to greet me by putting their suckers
all over my skin, and wouldwould look into my eyes and I would
I would stroke their skin. Theyenjoy gentle touch, and we would play

(03:50):
with toys together. Of course,I felt they had a soul. After
this book came out, it wasa real surprise to everyone that became an
international bestseller and got like literary prizesnormally reserved for writing about politics and humans
and stuff. And so when NationalGeographic decided to do a three part television

(04:15):
series called Secrets of the Octopus,they asked me to write the companion book
for it. Ah And in thisbook I get to I got to talk
to all these wonderful researches, someof whom I knew, all of whose
work I knew, But I gotto find out all the new science that
has come out since my first bookcame out in twenty fifteen. And the

(04:38):
science that's coming out now is sheddinga ton of light on the magic of
their camouflage abilities, the amazing intelligencethat they have. That chapter is called
gelatinous geniuses. And the third mostsurprising and interesting to me is that these

(05:00):
animals, of whom there's more thanthree hundred species and we're finding more practically
every other month. These animals werethought to be largely solitary, that most
species just hated being around other octopusesunless they were mating with them or eating
them, right, But it turnsout they are surprisingly social, not only

(05:20):
with octopuses of their own kind insome cases, but in other cases they
form partnerships with other species. Wow, that's fascinating. That's really fascinating.
Yeah. Oh it blew my mindbecause I kept wondering, you know,
why does octavia bother to be myfriends? You know, our kind separated,

(05:42):
Our last common ancestor was half abillion years ago, when everyone was
a tube. Why does she wantto be with me? What do I
have to offer? But apparently anumber of octopus species recognize that other species
have talents that they appreciate, andone in one partnership that completely blows in

(06:05):
my mind. This fish, it'sa marine trout, it is will come.
He'll swim up to the to anoctopus do this particular gesture. He
does a headstand in the water,and that is the signal to the octopus.
I have an idea. Let's gohunting together. Goodness, I know
where there are some cool things thatwe want to eat. So the octopus

(06:29):
then follows his partner, who leadshim, often to a coral or rock
crevist, in which the fish,the bony fish who can't get in that
crevist, wants to eat some ofthe creatures that live in there, but
he can't get in, but theoctopus can because the octopus has no boat,
and so the octopus flows into thatcrevice and outcome this, you know,

(06:53):
delicious outpouring of prey that both speciescan enjoy. That's it's amazing.
And there's a photo in your bookof the octopus doing the handstand right because
it up it's the fish doing thehandstand and looking at it amazing and there's
terrific footage shot by Adam Geiger andhis team. They spent hours and hours

(07:16):
and hours and hours and hours gettingto know individual octopuses. They had rebreathers,
so they could stay down much longerthan a normal scuba diver like you.
And in this way, the octopusesgot used to them and would allow
Adam and his team to go huntingwith them and to just hang out.

(07:36):
And sometimes the octopus would just reachout and touch him and touch the scientists
who are like doctor Alex Schnell,who's the major human character in the series.
She would come along and Adam hadalready made the acquaintance of the octopus

(07:56):
and she could reach out her handand the octopus woul reach out. I
love that. I love that.It's so beautiful and it's something that most
people probably don't even think you knowor no, yeah, they're like,
what I got to do it?Yeah, of course, you know you
could say that. Even though Idid get to meet octopuses in the wild,
most of my friends lived in captivitysimply because you know, I live

(08:20):
in New Hampshire, our coastline andseveral hours drive away and it's really cold,
and octopuses are really hard to study, particularly if not in the tropics,
because a someone may come along andeat them. Yee. They don't
always stay in they move their densaround. See the first time you see

(08:41):
the octopus, it's a red octopus. The next time a minute later,
it's a spotted brown octopus. Thentwo minutes later it's turned into somebody with
smooth skin and like yellow stripes onit. I mean, you can't even
tell that you're looking at the sameoctopus. They're really really hard to study,
but scientists are finding their way aroundit and getting to know individuals both

(09:05):
in the lab and in the wild, and what they're finding out is mindful,
I'm sure. And so you mentionedbecause of all New science. What
is it that has made so muchmore information available? Is it technology?
Is it the cameras, like thedifferent way that we have cameras and how
we use them in digital wise,or like, what is it that has

(09:28):
kind of opened the field for itso much over the years. Well,
that is a really good question.And when Adam was asked this very question,
he said, really, you know, there have been some technological advances,
but it's that people are spending moretime and being more patient. Wow,

(09:50):
there are more divers interested in octopus. Can When I was researching the
Soul of an octopus in twenty eleven, there was there was Most divers had
never seen an octopus. Most diversI've talked to had never even seen one.
And why Well, because they canbecome invisible and they can hide from

(10:11):
it, of course. But therehas been a real flowering of interest in
octopus since twenty fifteen when my bookcame out, and part of that is
thanks to a guy, Warren Carlisle, who contributes to all these octo profiles
to the back of the book aboutdifferent species. He founded the world's largest

(10:31):
octopus fan club called oct Donation,as a result of reading my book,
I Love it, and now hehas literally half a billion people have seen
his online posts from our community OCdonation, and there's just so much more
interest in octopus. There's so manymore eyes out there looking for them.

(10:54):
There's so much more appreciation for theexcellent work that people are doing. Some
of the folks who I interviewed havebeen studying octopus for thirty years, but
in many cases their work was ignored, no one cared. In some cases
it wasn't even published. In somecases it wasn't published because no one would
believe it. But now people believeit, people are interested, and this

(11:20):
has paved the way, for example, that wonderful film My Octopus Teacher,
which they were already filming that whenI was working on my book. But
the fact that Soul of an Octopusdid so well, I think made a
ready audience for beautiful films like thatone, and also a slew of great

(11:46):
new books, including works of fictionthat star octopus, like Remarkably Bright Creatures,
which is a huge bestseller. It'sa work of fiction, and the
author very generously credits my book.I love that it's litering her. A
lot of this is because of you. You opened the door. I don't
think it's me. It's well,but you think it's the spirits of the

(12:11):
octopuses that I wrote about. Givethem credit, I wish, But you
won't give yourself credit. I will. I think you are the were the
catalysts who started it and opened thedoor for the interest and and oct donation
and just people being interested and notignoring octopus in the past. Well,
I am sure thrilled that this isthis is what has happened, and no

(12:33):
one expected it. I mean,my publisher did not expect this. My
husband was shocked, like I couldhave dropped to the floor, was shot
right right that A the book didso well unto that it you know,
it was a finalist for this fancyliterary prize that usually goes to stuff about
people. That's amazing. It wasamazing. It's good for you. So

(12:56):
did you always from like from whenyou were a child always fascinated by octopus
and had an interest? Or isthis something that you saw or heard or
learned from a teacher that kind ofmade your eyes go huh more so or
it just happened to be like maybethere's not an answer to that. I'm
just wor no, no, thereis there's so is. I mean,

(13:18):
I think everyone who's seen in anoctopus, who was awake and in an
aquarium has been fascinated by him.And I was too sure. But for
many many years I've written, ohgod, this is like my thirty eighth
book, and I'd done like thirtywhen I when I started doing solod Octopus
in twenty eleven, I did notfeel ready until twenty eleven to write a

(13:41):
book about consciousness in a marine invertebrate. I did not feel that I had
the experience or skills to do it, and I didn't feel that readers were
ready to consider it Interestill twenty eleveninteresting, and I was right. That
was the time I was in myfifties. Then I'd, you know,

(14:03):
a lot of experience writing about otherminds besides humans, write about a number
of mammals and birds. I hadwritten a book for younger readers about Translas,
I'd gotten to know transela Is prettywell, and I'd done some marine
stuff, but I'd never done anin depth book on a marine invertebrate in

(14:24):
a way that would examine the mystery, philosophical mystery of consciousness. So and
I finally felt ready to tackle that, so you just had a gut feeling
on it. I guess I totallydid a gut But you don't, you
know, when you when you're writing, or you try to know you know
what what your readers might be hungryfor and what you what your soul is

(14:46):
ready to investigate right right now.But that's I mean, yeah, I
just I find it. It's fascinatingto me. But I just feel like,
and like I said before, youdon't give yourself the credit for it,
but you not only you know ininstigated like you instigated the movement,
but you also did it all ona gut feeling. I guess y.
Yeah, I think a lot ofwriters work on their gut feelings. And

(15:11):
sometimes their gut feeling is right,and sometimes it's wrong, and sometimes you
won't even know in your lifetime ifit was right or wrong right, you
know, And that's a great thingabout about books is that they will stay
on the shelf, at least inthe Library of Congress long after we're gone,
right, and you never know whatyour your impact is going to be

(15:33):
sure, but what you've just gotto do is, you know, offer
your sincere prayer in all of yourwork that it will do some good in
the world. Well, kudos toyou. It's really so. I know
we've talked in the past, butfor those who don't know, you know
simple things about octopus, that theycan change color, and they have all

(15:54):
these different body patterns. What issomething and they have you know, nine
brains is that correct? Nine brainsthat they have or eight nine brains.
It's as if they have not asif they have one central brain, right,
But most of their neurons are actuallyin their arms, right, So
that's it. They have eight arms. So you know, a severed octopus

(16:15):
arm can go off and do stuff. It probably can. It can change
color, it could even in theorycatch pray, catch prey. But what
they're going to do with it becauseits mouth is off, you know,
with the rest and you know,thinking of a severed octopus arm fills you
with sorrow. But happily they canregrow their arm and they can regrow it

(16:37):
as good as new. Wow.Okay, that is I was going to
ask you what is the most fascinatingor cool fact. Not only is that
it, I'm also still intrigued aboutthe arm that goes off and catches prey.
Does it I guess it eventually diesor yeah, it does because the
octopus has three hearts and they're backwith the regular you know, the body.

(17:00):
But it could last, but thatarm could go along for a day,
a week. No, oh no, I think it's just a matter
of hour hours. But what's sointeresting is that their arms can can do
stuff without going through the central brain. So it's it's almost like, I
mean, they can do very complexthings without going through the central brain.

(17:21):
For example, you know a human, you can hit their their knee with
a little hammer and it will reflexivelykick and you don't have to think,
like, ow, hit my hammer, better kick. But this is extremely
complex behavior that that arm is capableof doing. And what this means is
they are the premier multitaskers of theworld. Not only do they have eight
arms, but each arm can essentiallythink on its own right and has like

(17:48):
hundreds of suckers on it, thesesuckers. One of the other amazing things
about octopuses is that they can tastewith all of their skin, particularly with
their suckers, and they their suckersare capable of a pincer grip, so
that with their suckers they can untiea knot in surgical silk. Wow.

(18:11):
And some of their suckers a threeand a half inch diameter sucker which you
can find on giant Pacific octopuses.That's a big sucker you find on a
big mail. One sucker can liftthirty five pounds. No stop, they
have two hundred of them on eacharm. Well, okay, so they
have two hundred suckers on an arm, and one sucker can lift thirty pounds,

(18:34):
so that that would be a bigone, and that would be a
big ide of it. So thatmeans that one arm could could lift hundreds
of pounds. Oh ye, absolutely, probably even small octopuses like the common
octopus octopus of vulgarus, which makesit sound like it swears all the time.
That animal is a small animal,but it can it can exert a

(18:59):
quarter ton of force. And sowhen I was interacting with these animals,
and I was working with giant Pacificoctopuses who are much larger. They the
largest can grow to three hundred pounds, I'm dealing with somebody who is tasting
and feeling me at the same time, who is vastly, vastly stronger than
I am, and also an animalwho is venomous, And never was I

(19:26):
hurt or frightened in working with theseanimals. They were totally sweet, curious,
playful. I would say, gentle, very very gentle, very gentle.
I mean I would go home attimes with Hickey's all over my arm.
That book funny, It's very funny. Do you remember the very very

(19:52):
first time you ever experienced? Ofcourse? Oh, yes, this so
vivid. Yeah. My now goodfriend Scott Down lifted the lid to the
tanks that belonged to the resident giantpacific octopus at New England Aquarium. And
her name was Athena, and shewas about a forty pound giant pacific octopus.

(20:15):
And I had no idea what toexpect, but I did want to
just see what would happen. Sohe lifts the lids of the tank and
Athena. I see her eyes swivelin its socket and lock onto my face,
and then she flows out of herden. She's turning bright red with

(20:37):
excitement, and like this gorgeous hugesilk scarf unfurling in the water, this
bright red octopus starts reaching up totoward me with her white grasping suckers and
so naturally I plunged my hands andarms into the freezing cold water to meet

(21:00):
her. And this was, ofcourse, after Scott said, that's okay.
And then she covered my skin withdozens and dozens of these soft,
questing suckers, and she starts tastingme and feeling me and looking into my
face. And it was so evidentto me that this animal is just as

(21:22):
curious about me as I was aboutSure she was connecting with you. She
was totally connecting with me. Andyou know, I don't know that she
was thinking like, oh gee,I want to be friends. I mean,
I don't know what she was thinking, but I know she was interested
because she moved toward, not awayfrom me, and she could have just

(21:44):
watched me from somewhere else, butno, she came toward me. And
during the interaction, when I feltshe would feel comfortable, I actually would
stroke her head and she turned white. And white is the color of a
relaxed the puss. So she actuallyrelaxed under my touch and enjoyed my gentle

(22:04):
touch. So here was another thingwe had in common. Sure, we
both are curious animals who love toexplore. We both enjoy gentle touch.
And later I was to discover thatoctopuses like us enjoy playing with toys as
well. Wow, and sometimes thesame toys our children enjoy, like mister
Potato had and legos. Oh mygoodness. This is stuff that people would

(22:27):
never ever, you know, thinkabout or know about it. But it's
so fascinating and so interesting, andI just think it opens people's brains a
little bit more to see. Youknow. It's just it's not only a
cat and a dog that do certainthings exactly exactly. I mean, I
consider our cats and dogs kind ofthe uh, the gateway drug to loving

(22:48):
all animals. Yes, of courseit opens you know, it opens other
animals to you. I agree.A few people get an you know,
they get an opportunity to interact withan octopus, unless you are a diver
and you dive regularly in places whereoctopuses are. But what this teaches us
is, even if we don't havea chance to get to know an octopus

(23:11):
ourselves, we get to know thatthe animate world is full of thoughts and
feelings and memories and emotions and typesof intelligence that we may not understand,
but that we should reference. Thatwe should be in awe of course,

(23:33):
and I'm hoping that the octopus andthe book and the film Secrets of the
Octopus allow this animal to act asan ambassador for us to take better care
of our oceans. Oh well,ze right now, yeah, of course
that is definitely you know, thatis the truth, because I'm sure with
all the plastics and all the freightsand everything else that interrupts the wildlife and

(23:57):
the oceans and the seas, it'sjust it's probably you know, bad obviously
for the octopus as well. Yes, it's it's certainly awful. And when
we wreck the ocean, that's wherethey live, so it's no good.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. So Secrets of the Octopus that is
the book. Tell me about thefilm that it's coming out on Earth Day

(24:21):
correct this year? Is it's athree part it's a three part series and
as folks may know, National Geographichas been bought by Disney, so it
will be on the Disney channels.Wonderful. And this series is organized,
like the book is, into threeparts. The first is, you know
the masters of camouflage that octopuses are, how do they do it? They

(24:45):
don't just blend in with the background. Many octopuses assume the false identity of
other creatures. Some can mimic theweather. Some can decide, you know
what, I'm going to con usethis predator of mine into thinking that I'm
really a bunch of poisonous sea snakes, and in fifth of a second they

(25:07):
can turn instead into a poisonous flatfishor flounder, and do this so convincingly
looks so much like a flounder thatother flounders will follow it. Oodness.
Yeah, that's the ultimate shape shifter, right, that's right. They're totally
shape shifters. Oh my god.And then the third part is to me,

(25:27):
the most astonishing part, and thatis called octopus Kingdom, and that
examines their unexpected sociality of these animalsthat for ages everyone thought was solitary.
But it turns out almost everything weonce believed about octopus is wrong. Wow.
Wow, And this is coming outon Earth Day and you are on

(25:49):
the TV special correct. Oh I'mnot. I have the perfect face for
radio. Oh stop it, youdo not stop it. I saw you
on TV and that's when I waslike, I'm reaching out to our that's
not the reason, but you knowthey'll stop that. I'm supposed to say,
I have the face for radio.Not you, but you will.
You will see all kinds of wonderfulresearchers who I got to work with you.

(26:14):
Yeah. Well, doctor Alex Schnellis the person who most frequently is
on camera, and she has donesome fascinating work both with wild animals and
in the laboratory. She's a greatperson and I just got to meet her
in La after having many conversations withher on zoom and phone. And I
know that folks who watch this seriesare just going to fall in love with

(26:36):
her and with the octopuses that shebefriends, and all these other wonderful researchers
doing this astonishing work. Well,I can't wait, and I thank you
for all that you do and yourinfluence. Tell me where my listeners can
pick up Secrets of the Octopus yourbook, Well, it should be everywhere
books are sold, or you cango directly to Secrets of the Octopus dot

(26:57):
com and buy it and that'll connectyou with National Geographic and they'll show you
your nearest bookstore or how to orderit online. But it should be at
stores all over the place right now, Okay, And I know the book
just came out and I always hateasking this, but I have to because

(27:17):
I know that you can't, especiallyyou the little I do know of you.
You can't stand like sit still.What is next on your agenda?
Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna getmy wet suit on again, and I'm
going to do a book for youngerreaders in you know, the kind of

(27:40):
higher grades five, six, seven, eight about giant man to raise huge
essentially flattened sharks who lived to seventyyears old can sail up out of the
water and form relationships like the octopusdoes and with people. Wow, So

(28:02):
that that will probably be the nexttime that we chat, I fink,
I hope. So I have totell you, Si, you side Montcomer,
you are my You are one ofmy favorite people, probably my favorite
person to speak to. I justI find I love talking to you.
I could talk to you for hours. You just your your stories and and

(28:25):
I think it would make someone whois asleep wake up and be interested because
you're just no seriously, I reallytruly mean that. I just I really
I do love speaking with you.So I really do appreciate you and your
time and all your knowledge because youmake it in a way like I wish
when I was in school I hadteachers like you. No, Maria,
it is mutual and here's to thenext time. May it be soon that

(28:49):
we get to talk again. Iwould love that and thank you so very
much. You're this mot See youlater, Varmgator