Jennifer S. Holland's DOGSMART: Dogs Are Even Smarter Than You Think!

Maria chats with author Jennifer S. Holland about her latest book DOGSMART:  Life Changing Lessons in Canine Intelligence. We all know how smart dogs are, but Jennifer digs into just how intelligent and instinctive they really are! From sniffing out an approaching seizure to sniffing out an orca's health through its poop (Yes you read correctly!!)  DOGSMART is a fascinating and informative read.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
It's Maria's MUDs and Stuff. Whata great idea on iHeartRadio. Welcome to
Maria's Mutts and Stuff with me.I'm so very excited because my favorite thing
in the world, well, it'sdogs, and I have Jennifer Holland,
who is the author of Dogs Smart, Life Changing lessons in Canine Intelligence,

(00:25):
and just from the cover with allof the dog faces and heads, it's
just it's a fascinating book. It'sso informative. Jennifer, thank you for
doing this book. First of all, oh, thank you, thank you
for appreciating it. Oh my goodness, absolutely so. There were so many
things to talk about. But Ihave to tell you from the very beginning,

(00:48):
well in the preface, when youwere walking blindfolded, that's correct,
in New York City. Yeah,now that was the first time you ever
did anything like that. But youput all your trust into the dog next
to you. Correct, I did, Indeed I did, And it was
an incredible experience. First of all, those the seeing eye dogs walk very

(01:11):
fast. Oh okay, this onedid huh say? We went racing along,
but it was it was a remarkableexperience to put your faith fully in
this animal to not run you intosomething or leave you behind or whatever.
Just yeah, it was it wasa really really cool experience, I'm sure,
I mean, and to start thebook with that, I was like

(01:33):
what because I was thinking, likeput you know, you put yourself into
the situation, and you know,and of course people who don't have their
sight do it all the time,but for someone who does have your site
to do that voluntarily, it justwas like it just made me anxious to
read about it. But it justalso, you know, it makes us
realize for those I mean, weappreciate, but for those who don't realize,

(01:56):
how smart dogs are. And Ithink that's the theme of this book,
right, is that how intelligent dogsreally are. Yeah. And my
approach was to think about intelligence alittle bit differently than we typically do.
So, you know, we kindof look through the human lens and say
intelligence means x or y, andin a dog, we sort of think
of it as meaning a dog thatresponds to our commands and learns our,

(02:20):
you know, what we want itto do very quickly, and that is
certainly intelligence, but there are somany other tools that a dog has,
cognitive tools like its old faction andits emotional and social intelligence. And things
that it applies to its life thatwe might not really appreciate that much until
you kind of dig in and say, wow, they really have a remarkable

(02:42):
repertoire that you know, in parthas nothing to do with us and is
really just all about what they areas animals, right, And I'm I
mean, I know that you arevery, very very knowledgeable about dogs.
Is there something when you were writingthis book that you what like that actually
kind of surprised you that you didn'trealize knowing all that you do know about
dogs. Yeah, there were actuallya lot of things. I went into

(03:05):
it thinking that I knew a lotand came out of it feeling like I
didn't know nearly as much as Ithought I did. But you know,
one thing would be just kind ofI knew that their noses were powerful,
but I didn't realize that, youknow, they could they can smell something.
That concentration is in the trillians andmaybe even the quadrilliance. That's how
small an amount there can be.So that was one remarkable fact. And

(03:29):
then another thing that I learned aboutwas something called called intelligent and disobedience,
and the idea with that is dogs, you know, sometimes are in a
situation where even though they're well trainedto do as we say, for example,
with seeing eye dog, they mayknow better and may have to refuse
to do whatever we're asking because theyknow that it's the right thing to do.

(03:51):
So not going to go into thestreet if there's a car coming,
even if the person you know thatthey're guiding is pushing them to go,
or you know, there's a branchhanging over the sidewalk and the dog realizes
that's going to hit this person inthe head. We need to move over,
you know, and not walk thatway. And so the fact that
they know when to do that,they have to decide I'm going to disobey,

(04:14):
but it's the right thing. AndI thought that was really an interesting
idea. It is, I mean, it's fascinating. It's fascinating, is
yeah, I mean, we knowhow great dogs are, but I think
it's so fascinating to learn so muchmore, you know, like from your
book, so much more than probablywe would even I mean that we would
even guess or assume how long didit take you to get all of this

(04:35):
information? Like, how how longdid it take you to do the book?
It was about three years? Andit was you know, I had
other work that I was doing atthe time, and it was the pandemic,
so I wasn't sure I was goingto get to do a lot of
field work. So the fact thatI was able to get out and spend
time with as many dogs as Iwas, and to actually meet with a

(04:57):
lot of these people that train themand know about them, I was just
really really lucky that the people wereso willing to make that happen for me.
Sure, sure, yeah, SoI was just going to ask you
something with that, and now itjust went out of my brain, which
doesn't ever happen to dogs, right, we don't know. That's a really

(05:18):
good question. So yeah, right, it was the best question of this
whole chat, and I just lostit. But so, of course there
are always jokes about some dogs aresmarter than others, and but that's a
fact, correct, Like, yeah, I mean there are you know,
I think there are again different typesof intelligence, but certainly there are our

(05:42):
dogs and even breeds of dogs thattend to be you know, tend toward
the kinds of intelligence that we associatewith with smarts, you know, in
people and in dogs. Right,But but I think you know. Also
it's also about opportunity and if ifyou take a mutt or you know,
even some little pug that has asmush nose and you give it a sniffer

(06:03):
task, sometimes it's going to excel. And in one study, actually pugs
did better than German shepherds on snifferdetection tasks because they were so committed and
they so wanted to do well,and they were right there on the ground,
you know, with the stuff tosmell, and so it was kind
of surprising. You wouldn't really thinkof them as being the sniffer dogs,

(06:24):
but they were given this opportunity toshine and they really did. Wow.
Yeah, because it's true everybody alwaysassumes that German shepherds, you know,
the smartest s ORed because they're justyou know, police dogs. Oh they
have to be smart. But right, you know, they're all pretty smart
in their own I guess, intheir own way exactly. Yeah, kind

(06:44):
of like people, you know,exactly. Sometimes people aren't the brightest,
but they also have common sense thatsomeone who's really intelligent doesn't always have.
Not to generalize, but yeah,right yeah, and you know, dogs
in general, if you step back, the adaptability or I call it adaptive
intelligence. That the fact that theyhave adapted as a species to this world

(07:08):
and to us and to tolerating us, and even to the point of taking
advantage of all the things that wehave to offer them, you know,
is in a sense a very intelligentmove. I mean they had to,
you know, they they are partlyresponsible for domestication. It wasn't just humans
going in and domesticating dogs rights.They wanted to be part of that process
exactly. They had to be willingand able, sure, but they probably

(07:30):
also realized, like, hey,we don't have to go out and like
fight for our food. We canjust get it handed to us. Absolutely,
yes, which we know dogs areanyway, they are for sure.
Indeed. That's funny. So whenyou when you were writing the book and
doing the research and just because Idon't want to give it all away because

(07:50):
I want my listeners to read thebook and get the book, but were
there any dogs in particular or anylike situations or stories that you found that
really stick out that you would liketo share. Yeah, I'll choose one.
I don't always want to focus onsniffing, but it is such an

(08:11):
important superpower of the dogs that Ido tend to tell those stories. But
there was a particular sniffer dog thatI think is such a fun case study,
and that's a dog named Eba whocan is trained to smell whale scat,
so whale poop that floats, youknow, that's floating on the surface
of the ocean. And because ofthe training and this ability of this dog,

(08:31):
they can find this scat and scientistscan go out in a boat and
take samples, and it's helping themto better understand the health of the population
of these orcas out in Washington State. And so you know the fact that
the dog can do this and cankind of direct them on the boat,
runs from side to side with theirnose in the air, and the driver

(08:52):
of the boat follows the dog's directions, and ultimately they're able to study this
whole population of whale because of thehelp of the dog. So that was
a pretty neat thing to see.That is that's very neat, And I
mean that's like mind boggling because youdon't think of that. I mean,
I'm fascinated and it's mind boggles methat dogs can sniff out cancers and health

(09:16):
issues. Yeah, but the factof even you know, sniffing out whale
poop. You know, it waslike, wait, what, you know,
it's so random, so random?Was there anything? I mean,
because we are all aware that dogscan sniff out like cancers and stuff,
is something more to that, somethingthat when you were doing your research that

(09:37):
maybe you didn't realize that a dogcould sniff out Yeah, you know there.
I think with the disease the healthstuff there, that list of how
many diseases that they can actually respondto or detect is just growing and growing,
and it's you're starting to think thatthere probably isn't anything they can't smell,
if there is any kind of scentgiven off. But I spent time

(10:00):
with a woman that was working withdogs who were able to sniff out Parkinson's
disease in uh it just from thet shirts of people who wore them during
you know, while they were youknow, just having wow an attack or
you know. And and so thedogs are getting whatever it is that people
are giving off. They're they're ableto to gather that and and to let

(10:22):
us know that there's something not right. And dogs that can smell a seizure
before it happens. It is incredible. And I've got a couple stories of
folks in the in the book whoyou know, have dogs that have helped
them through those sorts of situations,and we don't even know what they're smelling
in that situation. We just knowthat they can. That they can.
Yeah, I mean, that's amazingto me. Do you think it'll get

(10:45):
to the point, because I mean, I feel like it's it's not a
g I don't mean to use theword industry, but like it's growing industry
for lack of a better word,where dogs are sniffing out diseases. That
we might get to a point oneday that we go in for our annual
physical and there's a dog there withthe doctor to I mean, because that
would make sense. It would belovely exactly because it would also keep people's

(11:09):
blood pressure down too when they're havinga physical or blend work right exactly right,
and their emotional emotional intelligence going atthe same time. You know,
I've I joked about that, orI said the same thing to some of
the people I talked to, andthey said, you know, it's unlikely
that the dog will be in there. But on the other hand, you
know the fact that they can makeuse of these dogs to help them understand

(11:31):
these diseases a little better. Youknow, if they can kind of figure
out, for example, what itis the dog is smelling, and then
you know, maybe fashion some sortof technology that can do the same thing
right and find out earlier, youknow, that somebody has a particular disease.
Sure, so I think I thinkthat's the case. And there's definitely
more interest in dogs than ever beforein the scientific world. You know,

(11:54):
they're training dogs to lie in anMRI so they can study the brain without
you know, even putting the dogunder. They just are in there and
they just lie still because they're verywell trained. Yeah, that's amazing to
you. When I've read about that, I'm like, wait, what you
know? I know, Yeah,they're just you know that. I think
they just have a lot of there'sa lot of aspects to dogs that we

(12:16):
don't associate with intelligence, but Ithink we should because they It really just
gives you a bigger picture of allthe capabilities that they have. Sure.
Sure, And I guess when itcomes to you know, the domesticated dogs
that people adopt and have in theirhomes, do you think most people understand
how intelligent and how amazing their dogsare or is that another whole uh not

(12:43):
something to be to overcome, butsomething that that people just need to learn
more, do you think? Oryeah, right? Do you think?
I mean? Because I don't know, I think that many people and just
by you know, living in acity and watching people walk their dogs,
and I'm like, oh my god, you know nothing about dogs and that's
very simple. But am I youknow, am I looking at the worst

(13:05):
of people? Or do you thinkpeople really understand how smart their animals are?
You know? I think I thinkprobably not, I think and I
you know, I think we're allguilty of just kind of rolling our eyes
that that our dog is doing somegoofy thing or not responding or you know,
and we don't always think about thefact that well, from the perspective
of the dog, maybe it doesn'tmake sense to do that thing, or

(13:28):
maybe my incentive isn't good enough,or maybe I've given mixed signals, or
maybe the dog isn't feeling well,you know, and is trying to tell
me that. And I'm not wellversed enough in in dogish people like to
say to really read the dog welland to understand why they're behaving a certain
way or whatever. So I thinkwe could do better in just kind of

(13:50):
knowing our dogs and understanding what they'retrying to tell us, and we might
appreciate a little bit more, youknow, and just sort of forgive the
things that seem a little bit offright, just because they're not something that
we're familiar with, right right,Yeah, No, that makes sense.
And I think reading your book isa step towards understanding, you know,

(14:11):
people understanding their pets, their dogsmuch better than what they currently are.
I think I think you're I thinkanyone who's listening, if you're thinking about
going out and rescuing a dog,you know, as you as we're speaking,
please pick up dogs smart because Ithink they could learn. I think
they could learn a lot, youknow, because well you always should have,
you know, the space to learnnew things, but especially about dogs,

(14:35):
because I do feel that people,you know, don't completely get it.
Another thing I wanted to ask youout and I made a note because
I was it kind of blew meaway. And it's a small, little
silly fact, but if we goby there are probably almost a billion dogs
in the world that eighty five percentare roaming free. I was very surprised

(14:56):
by that fact. I was like, what was shocking? I didn't realize.
And then when I thought about itmore, I thought, well,
of course that makes sense. Ifyou travel the world, you see dogs
on the street all the time,you know, just because in this country
we tend to you know, rescueand it's all about keeping the dog in
and protected. And but that's that'snot normal all over the world. And

(15:18):
you know, dogs reproduce like madand there's sure just they're roaming packs and
those dogs, you know, asI say in the book, they're evolutionarily
speaking, they're thriving. I meanthey each individual dog isn't thriving. It.
It's a tough life. But butthey have found, you know,
yet another niche Actually, that wasone of the early niches that would probably
be the first one that they hadto fill, and that is, you

(15:39):
know, living at the edges ofour society and and doing just fine on
their own. And so that's yeah, I think that was a surprising quest.
Surprise. Yeah me too. Iwas like, wait, what I
have to ask her about that.So, on top of all the information
and all this stuff that's in therefor us to learn, I love the

(16:00):
dogs. I love the cover andthe dogs. Did you choose them?
Are they are there dogs of peopleor dogs that you know or was this
a random uh? Choosing? Thiswas so I initially had the idea of
doing what I called the Brady Bunchcover. So I want to I'd love
to see the Brady Bunch, butwith dogs which I've just dated. I've
just dated myself. No no,no, but I know too, and

(16:22):
probably people who are listening no toThat's it's a great analogy. I love
it. So so we actually locateda photographer that had that had lost and
lots of portraits, and we kindof selected from those. There is one
portrait on the back of the bookthat is a dog who's in the book.
The dog's name is Odin and hereappears about five times in the book.
I telled them some stories about him, but he is the top left

(16:45):
dog on the back, the onethat's facing inward. Oh I love that,
did sneak in I speak in oneone personal favorite? Oh I love
it for fun? Yeah, thatis fun, I do. I love
that. And I love the factthat he's looking like he knows that he's
in the book, so he's lookingin exactly so perfect, so perfect.

(17:07):
So I know you spent three yearsof your life and putting this wonderful book
together, and I you know,and not to rush it. But what's
next for you, Jennifer, Iknow, very good question. Probably not
Cat Smart. Okay, I'll takea break from this this version of the
book. But yeah, I'm reallynot sure yet. I you know,
I have other writing projects, butI don't yet know what the next book

(17:32):
will be. But I suspect therewill be another book at some point,
because that's just where my mind eventuallygoes. Okay, well, I love
it, and keep doing what youdo so well and educating all of us
with so much on this wonderful book, Dog Smart, life changing lessons and
canine intelligence. Jennifer Holland, wherecan my listeners get the book? Any

(17:52):
of the online retailers? Hopefully you'reyou've got a brick and mortar store near
you, which I would encourage,and so yeah, pretty much anywhere where
books are sold should be available.Now. Great, Well, thank you
again so much. Thank you forwriting the book and talking about it,
and we'll talk again at some pointwith your next project, but right now
we're a loving dog Smart, Sothank you so much, thanks for having

(18:15):
me on. Operator does not seeyou, Amiata.