Our Michigan Politics Review with Chad Livengood, politics editor at The Detroit News(04-28-24)

In this week's program, host Phil Tower welcomes back Chad Livengood, politics editor and columnist at The Detroit News.   Chad joined us in this program to discuss a broad range of political topics, focusing first on Michigan politics and the recent criminal charges brought against former speaker of the house, Lee Chatfield, by Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel.  In mid-April, Nessel unveiled 13 criminal charges against former House Speaker Lee Chatfield, saying he had flagrantly misused nonprofit dollars to pay off his personal credit card and fund purchases at wineries and luxury retail stores. Chad told us that the Michigan Attorney General's office has also brought charges against Lee Chatfield's wife, Stephanie, for her role in the alleged scheme. Chad also discussed the growing problem of many Michigan lawmakers having pockets of money available through funds connected with their office, a third-party pack, or some other group. Later, according to Livengood, we talked about Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer, a potential presidential candidate for 2028 and possibly even for 2024. A major publisher is set to release a book this summer by Gretchen Whitmer about her life and years as governor of Michigan, another sign of a signal of the Democrat's expanding national profile. The book, titled "TRUE GRETCH: What I’ve Learned About Life We Are, Leadership, and Everything in Between," is set to go on sale July 9, 
Link: Livengood: Bring back officeholder expense funds. At least they were transparent.

 

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
iHeartMedia West Michigan Weekend, a publicaffairs program. Hi, welcome in.
It's West Michigan Weekend from iHeartRadio andthank you so much for tuning in across
whatever iHeartRadio station you're listening to.And don't forget we are a podcast as
well. You can find us afteryou hear this conversation on the radio Atwoodradio
dot com. It's my real honorto bring back Chad Live and Goood politics

(00:26):
editor and columnist with the Detroit News. You should be reading him and you
can at least check him out atDetroitnews dot com and then on a bash
plug for being a subscriber like Iam. There's some really good content there
as well. Hey, Chad,welcome back to the program. Hey,
thanks Steal for having me appreciate it. Well, I'm glad you're here because
we've had a lot of ground tocover, and specifically I want to start

(00:50):
out with state politics. There's alot going on. We just had a
former Speaker of the House hit withthirteen charges by the Attorney General here in
Michigan Data NASSL thirteen charges for someillegal use of funds. These are felony
criminal charges against former Michigan House SpeakerLee Chatfield saying that he misused some funds

(01:15):
to well pay off his credit card, pay some some trips, some Disney
World stuff, some luxury retail purchases. He bought a little bit of everything
with this fund. And this isa fund called Peninsula Fund. It was
his nonprofit organization. As a regularreader who does follow politics, I think

(01:36):
it's really easy to get confused onthis. Was this fund which he basically
took money from. Was it apack was it a private fund? What
is the connection here? Okay,so yeah, we'll step back and how
these things work. Michigan lawmakers haveallowed themselves to over time create a social

(01:57):
welfare organization under the IRS code knownas the five oh one C four.
Who are familiar with five to oneC threes charitable organizations, five twenty sevens
is another number out there in theIRIS code speak. That's a more political
group that does actual campaign advertising,independent UH expenditure. Five oh one C

(02:23):
four is a little more vague.It's for improving the social welfare. And
so politicians of all stripes for thelast almost thirty years now in Michigan have
been forming these these uh these organizationsand raising money for them, which then

(02:43):
they use for expenses that are prettywide ranging and also very unknown because there
is no disclosure of individual itemized spendingon these these these accounts they are.
They simply have to file a taxreturn tax form with with the I r
S every year, which is notavailable to about nine months into the following

(03:07):
year. And so it's very hardto track the money of the that comes
in, but it doesn't detail whogives the money, who gives, who's
the donors. That's all kept secret. And it only itemizes expenses in like
large categories like allays, like ifyou're doing social welfare or trapel and entertainment

(03:30):
and a few other just real vague, wide open categories. So it consultants,
images, don't say what you whoyou paid for consultants or various fees,
what lawyers, what's what campaign lolicaloperatives were paid to do work through
this edity or the fundraiser company orwhatnot. It's just it's just a very

(03:53):
wide category, nothing itemized or specificlike you have in campaign finance where we
can pull up and say, okay, Governor Whitmer spent one million dollars,
you know, paid one million dollarsto television station A and B and C
for ads on these certain dates thatyou know that they're where it's very detailed.

(04:17):
So Lee Chatfield held one of thesethese funds, and he raised one
point three million dollars for this PeninsulaFund while in office, which this is
a juggernaut. I mean, mostpoliticians if they if they raise one hundred
thousand dollars in a term of fouror two year term, that would be

(04:41):
that would be an amazing about money. Lee Chatfield broke all records when it
came to this type of of offundraising and then but we we have detailed
over time the Detroit News he wouldspend like what he spent like somewhere near
two hundred thousand dollars in travel.That's what that the committee had reports,
but we don't know where he went. What's come out in the criminal charges

(05:04):
is that he used this to bothtravel, live large one expenses on his
personal credit card one hundred and thirtytwo thousand dollars on so on his Chase
card. And then then the fundjust paid it back. And what the
investigators did was they went to thebank. They got Big L E.
Chadfield's bank records and they tracked theseexpenses and we're able to put together quite

(05:27):
a story about how he went andtook his family to Universal Studios, they
went to the Harry Potter restaurant onenight, they shopped at the Spider Man
Store. I mean, just justjust aleffort of a wrap of different different
uses and then getting the fund topay it. For lack of better words,
this is a legalized slush fund,and this is what Lee Chathill did

(05:53):
with it. We don't know whatother people have been doing. After we've
documented a number of different uses ofthese over the years. Governor Whimer in
twenty twenty two raised almost thirteen milliondollars for her fund, but most of
the money was transferred to an editycontrolled by the Democratic Governors Association, which
was running millions and millions of dollarsof television ads to support depression of Whitmer's

(06:17):
reelection. And as you might recall, they ran these ads to that were
just decimated Tutor Dixon, her Republicanopponents. So, in one way,
Whitmer used this as a vehicle tofund her reelection. In another way,
Lee Chaffield allegedly used this as avehicle to fund his lifestyle. And then

(06:39):
we have another one recently, formerSenate Majoria leader Arlen Miekoff. When he
left office, there was a fundset up for him. He's a Republican
from West Solive. There was afund set up for him called and they
all got different names, and it'shard to find out which who is who,
but I'm John Blake. Now,well what this one was called West

(07:00):
of Community Fund or something along thatline. Four hundred thousand dollars. It's
invested in something because we've been trackingthe tag returns since Arlen Miekoff left office
six years ago, and it's gotsome type of of an investment in something
that is making money every year.And then he's paying consultants and we don't

(07:23):
know who the consultants are. Itcould be himself for all we know.
And that's the that's the biggest problemwith these is we don't know if if
lawmakers are turning these things into essentiallya post retirement annuity for themselves that just
puts cash in their pocket every year. We also don't know what they're Well,
he's invested in in this and sothis is I'm laid out these different

(07:46):
examples because this has become widespreaded lancing. This is how this is. This
is the dark money story of lancingright now. There is no transparency on
how this money being spent and whatconnections are there. Another one, another
recent political scandal, the Rick Johnsonscandal, where the former Speaker of the

(08:07):
House from Leroy went to prison.He's currently sitting in prison right now for
taking bribes as the chairman of theMarijuana Licensing Board. Before he got appointed
that board, he had one ofthese little funds that was still left over
from his time as speaker some fourteenyears prior. I mean, these things,

(08:28):
these things do not die when peopleleave office. They seem to have
this longevity. And he donated eightythousand dollars to another five to'h one c
four controlled by Arlen Meekoff and hispeople, and arln Meekoff was nominated him
to be the chairman of the board. That's as far as what we know
about what happened. But nonetheless,again we learned this this only came out

(08:52):
because because Rick Johnson went to prisonand because we was established to go over
one hundred thousand dollars a bride lobbyistswho wanted to get marijuana licenses. But
this is becoming an epidemic in Land. Stated well, I was just going
to stop you there, and Iwant to move on to some other topics.
But as I am hearing you explainthis, this could be just literally

(09:18):
the tip of the iceberg, touse a very cliched phrase, but Chatfield
won. It could be dark moneyscandals with a lot of different members of
the House or the Senate in Michigan. And it is clear that these expense
accounts people aren't paying attention, andwith the apathy with politics in this country,

(09:41):
in the state, it's no wonderthat they're getting away with this.
Just real quickly before we move onto another topic, what are the next
steps after these thirteen criminal charges.The Attorney General of Michigan, Dan and
Nessel, files against Lee Chatfield.His wife is also involved. She's also
charged in this scheme of him,you know, getting money out of this

(10:03):
personal five oh one c four fundthe Peninsula fun What's going to happen next
year? Yes, also his chiefof staff and that guy's wife, robert
An E. Minard, and hewas essentially his bookkeeper. They also are
charged with him Besley and stealing moneyfrom this thing and double billions and all

(10:24):
kinds of schemes to essentially pull cashout. I mean, the Attorney General
ledges that they would hand a fivethousand dollars check the Lee Chadfilip's brother,
he'd check, he'd go cash it, and then he'd give Lee a thirty
five hundred dollars cash and help financea vacation or a trip some to Vegas
on the weekend or whatnot. Soso we have Lee Chatfield on May second,

(10:46):
is going to be arraigned in InglelandCounty Court. And in in June,
Robert A. Minard, the twoformer top aides, are their preliminary
exam is scheduled to begin. Andthen the legislature has a bill right now
that would required they call it theBright Act b ri Te and the Bright
Act would require lawmakers to register thesefive oh one C four so that we

(11:11):
know who has what and what exists. But they're not. But the legislation
does not require disposure. It doesnot require them to give up the names
of donors, and it doesn't requirethem to disclose. You know, I
spent this money on on on onething or another. I wrote a column
this weekend for last weekend for thenews. Looking at the history of this

(11:33):
and also back in the nineties,we had a system called officeholder expense funds
where lawmakers who take campaign money andthey put it in a little fun and
they could use this money to payfor like renting an office and there in
their district, hiring a staffer toto staff that office, the phone of

(11:54):
the electric bill, the water billmileage. If they lived in really expansive
areas of the state, it is, it costs a lot of money.
If if you are a senator inthe in the Western up travel expenses are
really really cut a lot into intoyour expense Versus if you and the state
senator from Ingham County and you getto go home every night, you don't

(12:16):
have to maintain a second house ora department. You know, I have
to drive twelve hours to Mcgauney.I mean just there's just a whole bunch
of things. I mean, Iknow, State Center at mcbroove. Sometimes
that guy in the summertime and springin the season, he will take the
ferry across Lake Michigan to cut twohours off of his commute back to Delta

(12:37):
County to his dairy farm. Sothere is expenses that that seemed legitimate.
The problem was with office load ofexpense funds. Back in the day,
we had lawmakers that would rent roomsout of their own homes. One senator
paid seventy five percent of his rentwas in his own apartment in Detroit.
I mean, it's just there wasjust a raft ways that people would I

(12:58):
mean, I would pay one RepresentativeDominic Jacob Betty, the longtime House Appropriations
chairman, paid his own son,so shall snow and so I got a
guy into a bunch of the differentexamples of how list was abused. They
abolished this in ninety four, andliterally the next year, then Lieutenant Governor
Dick Posthumous from from West Michigan starteda five o'h one c four called the

(13:22):
Posthumous Civic Fund, and he wasthe first to do it, and then
from there on everybody else starting rightright. And then that's that's how we
got to lead chapter. And herewe are thirty years later, just dark
money run amok. And the onlyway it's going to change is if enough
Michigan voters get mad enough about itto force a change. And this is

(13:43):
why I am so glad we havejournalists who work to uncover these things.
Otherwise this would go completely unchecked.People question the power of the press.
This is why it's the watchdog functionof the press, and it's been around
for one hundred of years. Andthank goodness, this is getting uncovered,
and who knows what else is happening. Chad liven Goood is with US politics

(14:05):
editor columnist at the Detroit News.We should have two hours for this program.
We've got thirty minutes, so I'mgonna have to fly through. We're
going to be at a lightning round. I want to talk real quickly about
Retchen Whitmer. She's got a bookcoming out. One of the biggest publishers
in the world, Simon and Schuster, paid her a lot of money to

(14:26):
write a book about her. It'scalled True Gretch What I've Learned about life,
leadership and everything in between. Thatwill come out in July. We're
already hearing that she is going tobe on a short list of presidential candidates
for twenty twenty eight. Wow,that sounds like a long ways away,
but it's not. Chad, whatdo you think? Yeah, I think
you can't count her out. Andthis also looks very strategic. I would

(14:50):
also put her on the short liston the bench for twenty twenty four,
just in case something happens. Imean, this is the reality. Anything
can happen in politics. And Novemberis still a lifetime from now, and
really August, the nominating convention forthe Democrats, is still four months away,

(15:11):
and and there's there's still a lotof moving parts. And anyone that
dismisses the notion that that the Presidentof the United States could just decide this
is not I should not run forre election. I have a health issue.
The man is eighty one years oldand Donald Trump is is is a
seventy eight almost now, and andso these two men are up there in

(15:31):
age. Obviously obviously Donald Trump isin trial right now. So there's a
whole different, you know, dynamicgoing against him, multiple criminal charges,
different courts around the country. Gradualymoris a book coming out right after the
week after fourth of July. Peopleare going to be out traveling, hitting
up you know, walking through theconcourse of Chicago, O'Hare, and they're

(15:54):
going to see Gretchen Whitmer's book outthere, and and they put her name
in the tie, which you know, you know, everyone when She's started
to talking about, you know,there might be a book. Everyone was
speculating and Land saying, oh,it'll be that woman from Michigan Donald Trump's
you know, reference to her infamousreference to her during the height of the

(16:15):
pandemic crisis, and but no,they they put her name in there,
and they kind of leaned into theinto the big wretch Moniker and by with
this true wretch. So so yeah, I mean, I think there is
there's going to be a book that'sjust going to kind of lay out governing
principles, a little bit of herbiography, not a complete memoir, and

(16:37):
they've made and Simon and Schuster hasmade it clear this is not a memoir.
So you know, I think there'sstill more to come. But this
is not this is not an accidentthat's happening this summer either. We're talking
about the presidential election. There's alot of news about it, even though
were over six months away from electionday on Tuesday, November fifth, and

(17:00):
there's so much that could happen,as you rightfully said, including the nomination
nominating convention for the Democrats in August. And I've read about this, Chad
in the Detroit News there is apalpable sense of apathy for Biden, not
only at least in the state ofMichigan, but amongst black leaders throughout the

(17:23):
state, especially in Detroit, andBiden in the polls. If you look
at the latest numbers at five pointthirty eight dot com, Biden is trailing
in just about every major poll toTrump again. It's very very soon,
anything could happen. It doesn't looklike Biden has a strong chance to win

(17:45):
Michigan again, at least if you'rereading the tea leaves right now. I'd
like you to talk about that,especially the apathy we had. What was
it, over ten thousand people inthe primary vote is uncommitted and not for
Biden. I mean, this isa serious issue. Yeah, it was
actually one hundred and one hundred andone thousand. Yeah, thank you for

(18:07):
putting the zero in the right place. Yeah, one hundred one thousand Democrats
voted uncommitted. This was largely amovement led by Arab American leaders and voters
out of Dearborn and surrounding communities AwayneCounty up into Oakland County, where there
are different pockets of American immigrants andsecond generation Americans who are quite frustrated with

(18:36):
the president's policy towards Israel. Hehas not changed that stance. He's you
know, he's made, you know, tried to push a little bit of
pushing of Israel's leadership to to respondto and let them in, you know,
get get humanitiated into Gaza. Asthe crisis in Gaza has has worsened.
I mean, it has not gottenany better than two months almost now

(18:59):
since the since the Democratic primary.But in a state where Joe Biden won
by a learned fifty four thousand votesin twenty twenty and Donald Trump won by
ten thousand, six hundred votes intwenty sixteen, we should expect this to
be an absolute nail fighter. Again, being one hundred and fifty four was
not a nail buyer, but itis still pretty close, pretty narrow margin

(19:22):
for most recent presidential elections in Michigan. So see, yes, there is
polling that is not good for Biden. There is a lot of these different
constituencies, ranging from the eraror votersto pockets of black voters that are not
happy with the president or they're justnot enthused that. There are the younger

(19:48):
voters in general who are not enthusedabout the prospect of either gentleman putting Essentially,
as one young voter said to me, I don't really want to put
Grandpa back in the in the WhiteHouse, either one of them. And
so they're looking around and and andso you know the No Labels movement that

(20:10):
the try was trying to draft abipartisan ticket. They abandoned their idea.
But here comes Robert F. KennedyJunior, the son of Bobby Kennedy,
nephew of John F. Kennedy.Uh, the environmental lawyer, anti vaxer,
kind of a crusader, crusader againstvaccines and whatnot. And now he

(20:33):
is actually making some waves, gettingsome money and getting on the ballot.
He has qualified for the Michigan ballotat this point under the Natural Law Party.
I heard that. And he's actuallythe most high profile nominated Natural Law

(20:53):
Party since Ralph Nader in two thousandand eight was sort of you know,
Justin's from the Green Party. Uh. He made one more bid for president
in eight that no one really remembers. So Kennedy's get on the ballot.
He's been drawings in crowds. Hehad a big event in Grand Rapids,

(21:14):
a few months ago that packed anauditorium with I mean fifteen hundred people.
But I mean I don't remember alot of third party canidates to got that
kind of enthusiasm. And just thisis why this matters. I mean,
he is going to play spoiler.The possible chances of Bobby Kennedy getting thirty
seven point five percent of the votein Michigan, which is the minimum you
need in order to win the state, are pretty low. But could you

(21:37):
get three point seventy five percent?You bet you. And if he gets
double that, this is trouble forBiden. I mean, he peels off
voters more from from Democrats. Hewill peel off some some some independence that
might have been in it went toa Trumper voted for Trump in sixteen but
just can't stand the man now.I mean, he's going to be a

(21:59):
magnet for for disaffected voters. Butif he gets up into the high single
digits or close to ten, thisis trouble for Biden. There's just no
doubt about it. Body Robert RftJunior was a Democrat for longest time,
just like the rest of his family, even though most of his Stanley has
actually come out and endorse Biden ANDCUDsome of his own sisters. He is

(22:22):
he is still going forward. He'sgot backing from some wealthy donors and super
Pack and the sous. He's doingsome unusual things that last Sunday he did
a comedy show at Royal Oak MusicTheater with like Rob Schneider and a bunch
of comedians unconventional Canada doing some unconventionalstop, as you said, could spell

(22:45):
real problems for Biden here in thestate of Michigan and any number of states
where he has made it on theballot. And he's certainly making a lot
of noise on social media, whichis not anything to be ignored by either
of the major party candidates, Bidenor Trump. Chad Live and good is
with us as we've got a coupleof minutes left in our regular update with

(23:08):
the politics editor columnus at the DetroitNews. You can read more at Detroit
News dot com. We'll put upthe link to Chad stories on our podcast
page, and also the article whichis worth reading about bringing back officeholder expense
funds just recently published in the DetroitNews. As we look at the presidential

(23:30):
election and Michigan voters, you've beenfollowing this closely. I get the sense
that the economy is the biggest,biggest election issue for the presidential election.
The inflation, the economy, jobsall kind of packed into one suitcase.
Is that fair enough to say?And abortion, even though it's an issue
for some people and abortion rights ora pro life stance on the other end,

(23:52):
is that an issue at all?What is going to be impacting and
on voters' minds as they cast theirballots in November, Well, they say
earlier for the election is still lifetimeofly. I mean, there could be
any number of dramatic events. Imean, like you know, the the
war in Gaza is a is ahuge issue for Biden and and people and

(24:18):
people on the left, and youknow the Democrats that that feel that Israel
has gone too far. Uh,then there are Democrats who feel like like
Israel has to defend itself because ofthe attacks that have sustained from the lass
in October seventh. So, forthe first time in quite a long time,

(24:40):
national security, international affairs types issues, war, international affairs, the
national security are really going to beon the ballot, or at least at
stake for some constituencies. Ukraine,Aid as well Chinese aggression onto Taiwan,
and and then I think immigration isis is going to be a hot issue,

(25:00):
and it already has shown is withDonald Trump's recent trip to Grand Rapids,
right and the murder of this womanby any illegal immigrant, and he's
the eyegoing as that case plays itsway out, and the fact that this
man got back into the country sometimeafter being deported by by the Trump administration

(25:21):
in the fall of twenty twenty.This is going to be an issue that's
going to be localized, and they'regoing to be They're going to be duking
it out in Michigan, Wisconsin andPennsylvania and other key battleground states. And
before we wrap things up real quicklya minute or less, are we're going
to see Trump a lot more inMichigan, Biden maybe some more. What

(25:44):
do you think. I think you'regoing to see them quite pretty equally.
I mean, I canna see Trumpfor a while, because he's he's pretty
bogged down in stuff to say,uh with with the hush money trial in
Manhattan and and other court proceedings downdown on the calendar. But yeah,
I think you're gonna see some targetedvoting some different you're gonna go to different

(26:06):
communities. One of the biggest mistakesthat Hillary Clinton made in twenty sixteen.
She never went west of US twentythree until the day before the election.
Yep. And she showed up atGrand Valley State University try to you know,
pump up some some some young votersin Allendale. And this was a
huge, fatal mistake that she spentmost of her time in Flinton, Detroit

(26:26):
and suburbs, mostly the campaign orraising money in the suburbs of Detroit.
And so I think you're already you'realready starting to see it. Biden was
in Saginaw last month. Trump hasbeen out in Grand Rapids. You're going
to see a lot more campaign spreadingout and and you're gonna be seeing a

(26:49):
lot of a lot of surrogates andwhatnot. They're gonna come in and try
to, you know, pump upthe base and whatnot. But and then
you're gonna see this a plever oftel vision ads and digital ads and and
I very kind of way they canget and get your eyeballs and attention and
people because people are going to votea lot earlier this cycle, because this

(27:10):
is going to be the first presidentialelection and with no reason, well first
presidential election not counting code, thetwenty twenty election with no reason absentee voting
and early voting starting nine days outin person, You're going to have a
lot of ballots. Most of theballots, if not, you know,
the majority of the ballots are goingto tasks UH these or maybe weeks before

(27:33):
the election day itself. So themessaging will front load, and the presidential
UH debates this year start in earlySeptember just because of that. So they're
just going to see a lot moremessaging uh late summer into in the around
into Labor Day than you've seen before. And that will be the final word.
Chad Live and good politics editor andcolumnists at the Detroit News. As

(27:56):
always, thank you for joining us. Chad always learn a lot from you.
Thanks for having me appreciate it.That's been our program this week from
iHeartRadio. We'll catch you again realsoon on this iHeartRadio station. Thanks for
listening. iHeartMedia West Michigan Weekend apublic affairs program