July 17, 2025 • 37 mins
“Being dry is just changing your drink. Being sober is changing everything.” — Jordan Kawchuk.
Jordan Kawchuk is a brilliant storyteller, a former media professional, and a father—but for over 30 years, he was also an alcoholic. In this raw and revealing episode, Jordan opens up about a lifetime battle that has taken him through several treatment centers, estranged him from the people he loves most, and nearly consumed his identity. Yet today, at 50-something and nine months sober, he speaks with honesty, humility, and surprising humour about what it means to recover, to reconnect, and to begin again.
I follow Jordan through the wreckage and the rebuilding. From the seductive lure of martinis and jazz to relapses in hotel rooms, from moments of public failure to private reckoning—Jordan spares nothing. He offers insight into the difference between being “dry” and truly being “sober,” the power of storytelling as a healing act, and how he’s learning to live, love, and listen—one moment at a time.
Whether you or someone you know is battling addiction, or you’re simply human and healing from life’s frictions, this is a conversation that matters.
To connect with Jordan or to see his work: https://thechase.substack.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
I've never met a perfect person. I've seen people with
swagger and demeanor that might feel they're pretty close.
In fact, they might be very close. But more often than not,
we have flaws. We have demons. We
have friction points that prevent us from moving forward.
We have motivators that encourage us to take that step forward.
(00:26):
But sometimes those friction points aren't just, I'm feeling
lazy like a victim, but it's a disease
that takes over your mind. I didn't stop, I didn't drink like
normal people. After a while, I thought about alcohol every day.
And in this story, this disease is alcoholism. My guest
is Jordan Kawchuk. You don't have the authority to talk about this, and I believe
(00:50):
I do. My life and my family was destroyed.
I can talk about this. He's waged a battle against
alcoholism for most of his life. 30 years. He's in his
50s, and for the first time, he feels he might have a suit
of armor to counter it. But to put on that armor, he had to do
a lot of soul searching about who he is and why.
(01:12):
He matters to realize that connections are different. When
you're fully sober, it's about listening. It's about humility. It's
just about breathing, learning how to sit still. Stay with me to the
end when there's a moment of revelation where Jordan might have found an
answer for something he's searching for for a very long time.
Thank you. That means a lot to me, what you just said. Yeah.
(01:34):
But now somebody in and out of treatment centers over
20 times, someone has caused himself and his family
and friends so much pain. Joins me today to talk about
what life means to him sober, and with it, the
lessons we can all learn from it. I finally hit my
zone.
(01:56):
Hi, it's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter that Matters, presented
by rbc. If you can please subscribe to the podcast and
ratings reviews, well, they're always. Welcome and they're always appreciated.
Jordan Kochuk, welcome to Chatter that Matters.
Hello. So, Jordan, we're going to get into this roller coaster
(02:17):
ride of your life. Big declines and a lot of movements on the
way up. But before we even step into that roller coaster, I want to
wind back the clock. And from what I understand, I'm
talking to someone who was a gifted student, loved the stage,
but also a restless spirit chasing chaos. What
kid isn't anxious and, you know, restless? But,
(02:40):
Tony, there's a theory that people are born with an alcoholic brain long before they
drink. And I think that's related to mental health. But I was taken out of
class into special projects classes. I was
very creative, but very restless. I had trouble in social
situations growing up, too. As far as
alcohol went, I lived in a house where dad and
(03:02):
brothers all listened to cool 50s
jazz records, and martinis were in the house.
And alcohol was glorified and romanticized. It
was Frank Sinatra. It was Dean Martin. But I remember too,
in school in grade six, I had to write an essay
about some fiction situation. I remember watching old SCTV
(03:24):
reruns at that time, and my whole essay was about
this one soap opera on SCTV and the Doctor's office
with John Candy. And my whole essay was about the drink cart.
The lawyer walked in, poured himself a bourbon. This guy added
ice. The whole essay in grade six until my teacher had to call my
parents. I also remember through therapy that
(03:47):
there was a time before I even thought about drink or even
try to drink. We're talking like grade four. I remember saying to my mom
on holidays, boy, I could really use a drink. She goes, well, it's hot out.
Let's get a Kool Aid. I said, no, like a drink drink. I had no
idea what that means, but I said, it. It's. It was implanted early.
When did you have that first drink? I started with my friends
(04:09):
in grade 11, grade 12, parties after. In the weekend
after band or high school. When I took that first drink, I
was home. Something clicked, something. Something
I didn't know. It was my wiring at the time. It took me a long
time to know that, but something felt perfect. One of
the interviews that I listened to that you were in, you talked about, you know,
(04:31):
I had adhd, I had anxiety, and
that lubricant had an immediate and
positive impact. Do you think that was a connection in terms of saying,
I don't want to feel this way, so therefore I'm going to mask it with
some alcohol? I think it was the easy fix. I felt good. I
didn't feel depressed. I didn't feel anxious. I felt like I fit in. And
(04:53):
I think because of my wiring or the way I am, that ease
and that comfort turned into addiction.
But it was definitely something that made me feel better and didn't make
sense because long before people stopped drinking in
university or at a party or a wedding, I didn't stop.
I didn't drink like normal people. After a while, I thought about
(05:15):
alcohol every day. I would get worried if there was a
wine bottle at a dinner party running out. It
turned into a craving and a novelty, into
a pathology, into an addiction into. Into just. Just
hell. You describe this in such a unique way. I love
when people frame things that you can immediately step into your shoes. You
(05:37):
said alcoholism isn't a moral failing or a lack of
willpower. It's a biopsychosocial spiritual disease.
And it hijacks your brain, your body and your spirit. Yeah. And you
don't understand it. There is a voice inside of you saying, this isn't right. This
isn't you. But that. That voice gets quickly drowned out. And I
guess that's addiction, but it is a
(05:57):
biopsychosocial spiritual disease. It tears
down the architecture of my life. It
removes salience in my life. Important things aren't important anymore,
even though in my heart and in my soul I know they are. Destroys
relationships, finances. It leaves you with a
spiritual hole. It just takes everything from you,
(06:19):
but you keep going back because that's how you're wired. And a lot of people,
we call them normies, don't understand that. I grew up thinking
a drunk or an alcoholic was the hobo. Riding the rails
in a crumpled fedora and a bottle with XXX on it.
Moonshine. But this disease is
everywhere and it doesn't discriminate. What age were you that
(06:40):
you said, I've got a problem and I need help? It was about in
my mid-20s that my wife at the time said,
well, you know, this is too much. We're really worried about you. Go get help.
And I just started with some classes in Calgary, and then I
eventually in Vancouver, when we moved there, pursued my first
treatment center. And, you know, you talk about your first, and this is one of
(07:02):
the things that I really opened my eyes to, how tough this disease
is. You've been to five addiction treatment centers in 20 years.
So when did you go there because your wife
or someone you loved encouraged you to do that? And when did you start
going there because you said, jordan, if I don't do something,
I won't be around. Yeah, I wish I had the story, Tony, that
(07:25):
I just woke up one day and decided that was it. I'm stopping this.
There are people that are one and done like that. I went to my first
treatment center. It was a month long. And I remember a guy telling me, you
know, this is not going to be your first treatment center. And I thought he
was crazy. I thought I was killing it. I was writing the homework well, I
was nice. I played cards well. But looking back, I wasn't
(07:45):
doing the work. So I've been in sober houses
that have no budget. We Ate frozen pizza. For two months. I've
been in a treatment center in Surrey that
was next to a biker house. It wasn't treatment, it
was dysfunctional. And I've been in a five star, so to speak,
treatment center with fountains and great food and great facilities.
(08:09):
I didn't want to be a frequent flyer at treatment centers. Treatment centers
aren't always the answer. And when I enter a treatment center like a wide
eyed, unbroken horse, I don't want to
go. Like you said, Tony, I did probably went to the first couple treatment
centers for family, for a wife, for a partner. You
know, some guys go to treatment because they're court ordered or forced by family.
(08:31):
You know, I've gone for a different reason, but it took me this long
to finally go for myself after
detox into a long term place that
really has given me a shift. So before we get into
that, because the other thing I was interested in, I think you wrote an article
is you have this sense of humor about it, which I, you know, and I
(08:52):
almost find comics are funny because they're masking their
pain very often, not always. But you talked about
what it's like to live in a treatment center, living with 20 other
men. You know, as much as I felt for you, at the same time, I
couldn't help but sort of laugh at the way you paint this picture. And I
thought maybe you could share with the listeners what a day in the life
(09:13):
is like when you've got 20, 20 people at all different
stages of recovery. Some there because they've been court ordered
and others there because of their partners encouraging them and others there because
they want to take a shot. I was the only non smoker, non vaper, 20
guys that sat around in the smoke pit talking about lifting weights,
trucks and all the women they've conquered. And I show up and I'm
(09:36):
a guy in a collared shirt, so they think I'm staff. I have a box
full of books and my Moleskine notebooks and I never fit
in. And it's funny because some I've been told at treatment
centers, well, do you think you're too good for us? Actually, no, I don't think
I'm good enough. I can't relate. I can't show vulnerability
here. That said, a day in the life, you know, in a
(09:58):
lower end treatment center, which is great too, you're in a bedroom with
six guys, three bunk beds. It's kind of hell, especially if
you're already a bad sleeper. It's not a very healing place.
20 guys sharing a shower, fighting over chores, getting
the last banana. Getting mad is a constant back
and forth of how to relate, how to practice recovery and
(10:20):
also survive. I've been bullied at some of these treatment centers by
the gym bros. Then again, I find humor in a lot of
them. I remember going to one treatment center where one of
the staff, who was a guy that had one year sobriety and
I was a little rough around the edges, wanted to do a meditation class,
and he had us all lie down, all of us ragtag
(10:43):
people in beards and ripped T shirts. And he walked around the.
He had us close our eyes, and he said, okay,
put yourself in a place. You're at an effing beach and there's a bunch of
effing chicks and bikinis. Now you're at peace, right? F
this. F that was our meditation. And I just thought, if you can't laugh at
stuff like that, you know, the other day we were in our.
(11:06):
Our circle with a daily topic. What would you want to
wake up and have different. We have a guy missing a leg and a guy
that's blind in our treatment center, and they all said, I want to be a
Marvel comic guy. I want. I want to fl. I want to be invisible.
Don't you want your leg? Don't you want your sight? You know, these are. These
are funny things about treatment when you're living in this microscopic world
(11:27):
and you have to have humor. I could write a book that would
devastate my family and readers about
all the things that happened to me. Ambulances picking
me up in Starbucks bathrooms and blowing jobs
and hurting my family. But there's also a humorous side,
which helps me recover and also helps people relate.
(11:49):
You really do have an ability with words. And you talked about
the distinction between being dry and being sober,
emphasizing that it's a lifelong endeavor that changes everything.
There's a lot of people out there that are drinking less, you know, curious, sober.
But that's different, right? It is, and it's great if people
are sober, curious. I have a good friend that is four months without
(12:12):
booze just because he's tired of it and he wants to
improve his health and his fitness. But being dry is different
than being sober. This is what prompted my whole outing essay
when I outed myself in the Globe and Mail because I was watching yet another
dry January go by, and I was in a treatment center,
and there were these pithy posts on Facebook about, hey,
(12:35):
one more day to go. I'm almost at the finish line. This is impossible. I
was like, wait, wait. I don't want you to feel sorry for me, but I
have the other 334 days to go. I'll tell you what that's like.
So being dry is just changing your drink. And I think being
sober is changing everything. Being dry is white, knuckling
and counting days. Being sober is
(12:56):
a whole new set of values and behaviors. A connection with
something spiritual, a reconnection with self. It is
everything that's different and good. I know people in
some 12 step programs that are 5, 10, 15 years
sober, but they're dry, they're miserable, they're still
hanging out with terrible people. Complaining, cynical.
(13:20):
That's not being sober, that's just being dry. And I've been both. You
know, it's interesting. It seems like alcohol was your social lubricant
to connecting with people. You know, I'm going to drink before I go to the
party so that I can, you know, be at the party today.
You've completely reversed your thinking. And you say that the
opposite of addiction is connections. Actively rebuilding and
(13:41):
fostering connections not only with yourself, but your family and friends.
Unpack that a little bit for me. The Globe and Mill article, when
I outed myself as an alcoholic was supposed to be just a look
at. I was questioning, did I find alcohol or
did alcohol find me? If I looked at my
past without even trying, I was.
(14:05):
My favorite artist was Tom Waits. I read Charles
Bukowski. My favorite movie was Barfly.
My first job on a university bulletin board was being a
Bacardi Breezer rep. My next job was in a wine shop.
I formed a band with my brother that was based around
martinis and we traveled the world singing about drinking.
(14:27):
I made a movie with France called American Beer. This is a big
coincidence, or not a coincidence at all. But booze has
followed me, so I was always the go
to guy to have fun and drink with and go to concerts. My
default then became drunk. So my connections were very
superficial. Like my dad, I love being a regular at a bar.
(14:49):
So I would go to the Legion and hang out for hours.
And I loved having my own stool there. But those connections were
superficial. It took me a long time, too long to realize
that connections are different when you're fully sober. It's about
listening, it's about humility. It's just about breathing, learning how to
sit still, learning how to sit down with somebody and have a
(15:11):
conversation. I'd really, you know, being in the media for years,
interviewing rock stars and much music, I thought I was a good
conversationalist. I can't do it. I'm learning how to do that.
I'm learning how to do so much. I'm learning how to eat again, learning how
to have sex. I'm learning how to read, write. It's a lot
when you talk about, I'm learning how to do all this stuff. It's almost like
(15:31):
you've come, you know, the Hollywood thing where the person was lost in the jungle
for 10 years and comes out and has to rethink their life. And is it
happened gradually or is this one day you wake up, you've been sober for a
while, and you look around and going, I'm a different person and
I'm now on a completely different journey. Or is it just slowly
happen and manifest that way that you can come to the conclusion now?
(15:53):
You know, like a good summer camp treatment can be like, you have this
jolt, this spirit and spark, and you have all these wonderful new friends and
you feel alive. But after 30 days, you just have a
binder full of homework and you go back to the same home, the same
problems, the same situations. The trick is
maintaining that spark and carrying it on through life.
(16:15):
So you are like a castaway coming back to life. And there's a reason that
treatment centers and 12 step programs have a very, very low
percentage of success, is because nothing really changes. You
are inspired for 30, 40 days in a treatment center and you just walk
out with a binder and a pamphlet for where AA meetings are. And
it's funny because parents will pay and remortgage their house
(16:37):
$50,000 thinking their child will get cured. And it's just
a business. It took some of us three
decades to be a drunk or have
alcohol use disorder, which is the gentler, modern
term for it. It took me years to develop this. I'm not going to catch
it in 40 days or from reading a book harder or from
(16:58):
praying harder. Tony, I want to tell you just how complex and
confusing alcohol use disorder is. I've had
AA sponsors telling me I'm not doing the steps or reading the book
hard enough. I've had doctors telling me relapse is okay
and you need more medications. I've had family members say, you know,
instead of a drink, pick up a nice latte. I've had
(17:21):
counselors saying, you haven't found your trauma. You know, it goes
on and on. And so it's no wonder people don't want to open up
or face this because it's. You get so much
confusing information. And it took me this long, three
decades I'm in my 50s now. To find the perfect
cocktail of medicine, counseling, self work, and
(17:43):
pardon the cocktail pun, but actually don't because that shows
you how this is in me. I use the word cocktail.
Did you ever walk out of a treatment center and having a drink immediately
I first want. And did you think that was just one drink and I can
control it now, or was it just I can't wait to have a drink? Tony,
I'm an educated professional guy and I have walked out of a hospital
(18:05):
with a tube in my arm just to run to the liquor store.
That's how strong it was. My hippocampus or my lizard brain says
you need one. The first 30 day
treatment center I went to, my mom came out to visit
and was with my wife. And I came home and
it was a big celebration because then it was seen as like
(18:28):
while you're cured. And I remember that night, I missed
my bar friend so much. There was something that pulled me, something
insane that pulled me. I went back to the Legion to see all the old
guys, to feel at home, something, something of
connection. And I picked up a drink. If
I take one sip, it'll lead me down
(18:50):
the addiction path until I take down every. I cannot
stop once I have the drink. It's not being lush. I cannot stop. That's
my disease. Stick around
because when we return, Jordan and I discuss the healing
power of the written word and this extraordinary journey he's on.
To find forgiveness, to find time to contemplate,
(19:13):
and most importantly, to find time with his daughters.
Hi, this is Tony Chapman, host of the radio show and podcast Chatter that
Matters. Did you know that only one in five youth with a mental
health illness can get access to the care they need? Well,
a big shout out to the RBC foundation and RBC Future Launch
(19:36):
for supporting over 150 youth mental health
organizations. And in doing so, they help youth and their families
get the care they need and deserve.
Being sober is a whole new set of
values and behaviors. A connection with something spiritual,
(19:57):
a reconnection with self. It is everything that's different
and good. You're listening to Jordan Kawchuk doesn't have
to do this interview. Many would be embarrassed by it. I mean, here's a human
being that has spent 30 years battling alcoholism.
He's in his 20th treatment center today. He's nine months sober
and he shares the story. So we can walk in the shoes with
(20:19):
people that battle this disease and also
hopefully have empathy for how hard it is for many
to conquer it.
One of the Patterns that's emerged on this show is the importance of
journaling and writing as part of the healing process.
And we're going to talk a little bit about your upcoming book, but it sounds
(20:42):
like that was a big part of your 30 year path
to being sober, was your ability to start writing these things down,
really coming to terms with who you are and how serious this disease was.
And I have to admit, Tony, I'm a terrible journaler. But you know,
after writing for years in television and radio, I gave myself permission to,
(21:02):
to call myself a writer in the last few years. And it was only
when I wrote with complete vulnerability that something
clicked and people started to read and I started to feel better. When I
write now about recovery or my
path or my journey, and I'm really in the zone.
I feel like more me and I feel free of
(21:24):
me, which I think is a good explanation for sobriety too.
I'm not trying to rebrand myself or tell others what to do
or make people feel story for me. I just write what is
real, which I think is the goal of writing and somehow it's
resonating. Your upcoming book, why I Wasn't There
is I would say partly therapy, but
(21:47):
partly an apology to your daughters. It's not directly
addressed to them, but people that have
alcoholic parents, children of addiction, will recognize
themselves in it. My journey with my daughters has been tough
and they couldn't understand and I couldn't understand why I
just couldn't be there. Whether it was treatment or I was sick,
(22:09):
I guess, you know, we talk about rock bottoms and every bottom has a
basement. But it was a couple of years ago when I was doing
really well that I flew out to Kelowna to see my daughter's
grade 10 play. And the night before, something
in my brain in the hotel told me to have a beer. And
Tony, I didn't make it out of that hotel room for two weeks until my
(22:31):
brother had to rescue me. My daughters didn't talk to me for over
a year to protect themselves, not to punish me. Since
then, I've had an amazing reunion
with them that is beyond words and a gift of sobriety.
This book isn't about an apology to them or
me blaming my disease, me blaming my genetics, me blaming
(22:54):
situations. It's my story. It's my story about
present day living with a bunch of jailbirds and starting to tutor
kids. And it's a story of my past, the good and bad
things that happen to me in alcohol. I mean, I've done some wonderful things.
I've Played parties for Tom Hanks. I've played on
(23:15):
top of the World Trade Center. I've had a lot of great things and there's
a lot of terrible, terrible things. And they're all going to be in this book
to somehow say that's why I wasn't there. It's
not okay that I wasn't there. But, but here's what happened.
Talk to me about what you're doing now because you just sort of referenced living
with 20 jailbirds. So I'm curious, what's Jordan up to here with his
(23:37):
jailbirds? I love the word jailbirds and they know that I call them jail. They
call themselves jailbirds and they're wonderful, wonderful men. Right now I'm living
in a therapeutic community. Been there for nine months
and it's unlike any treatment or program
I've, I've done. So we all live in a community. There's no top down
counselor and boss. We all just live together and learned how to
(23:59):
communicate and live live and recover together. And it's just a
wonderful brotherhood. There's an irony that I'm living
with 20 jailbirds. There's once in a while a guy will come
in that hasn't been a jail. But there have been months where I'm the only
guy who doesn't smoke and doesn't have prison experience.
Which is great because they teach me the wrong things and the right things.
(24:21):
But the irony is I was allowed a little bit of a part
time job in this treatment center and I wanted to do something with writing
and I applied to a learning center and I'm
tutoring little kids, kindergarten up to grade 11, reading and
writing and it's just a little over minimum wage and only 10,
11 hours a week. And it's the most meaningful job I've had in
(24:43):
decades. And I somehow, you know, not to get all woo
woo on you, Tony, but I sometimes sit with kids,
two sisters that are the exact age gap of my daughters. You know,
these kids are in grade two and grade six. I have this
ache and this homesickness, but then this gratitude that I'm
getting sort of a universe redo to read and write
(25:06):
with these kids that I didn't get a chance to do with my daughters. And
how are you financially surviving? I mean, I have to believe you didn't save a
lot of money during this roller coaster ride. No, the roller coaster rides.
Alcohol use disorder destroys finances. And I think there's a
misconception that you just drink your money away. That that's not it.
There you you end up having to pay for hotels and visas
(25:28):
and you just need money to live. So I unfortunately have had to really
dip into my savings and RSP and now I'm living
like I am. Like I'm 60. I'm rebuilding my life at a late age.
Am I worried about retiring and financial? Absolutely.
But I, you know, I get a little help at this, this place that I'm
living. It is funded, so I get to save money there.
(25:51):
I have all the confidence that with doing the next right thing
and being sober and my, I guess my gift of writing
something will come about. In the past, I've had the
mistake of, you know, a couple months sobriety and then landing a job.
I can tell people about my work experience and get these jobs, but
I can't maintain it if I'm not clear. Yeah,
(26:13):
financially it's tough. And how strong do you feel like are you at that point
where the next time you're in a hotel room and that whispered,
you're saying just have a beer, that you now have the
resilience to counter of that? My daughter is graduating grade 12.
This is the daughter who I blew it with a couple years ago and we
had a great reunion when I went to see her play in grade 12 where
(26:34):
she was the lead singing 20 songs. And we reunited
in the lobby and she was, she was crying tears of
joy, tears of confusion, and she ran into my arms. We cried into each other's
arms for a good minute and that was the best moment of my life.
So my, my goal in this treatment center is to go see her graduate.
And I don't want to go to a hotel by myself. I know I can
(26:57):
do it. But just to build trust and to be safe, I'm taking
my good friend Steve and we're going on a dude's road
trip and I'm going to celebrate graduation with my two daughters. That's
beautiful story. The other thing that it's shifting gears a little bit, but
your insight that the increasing openness and involvement from
celebrities and musicians is actually working in the favor of people
(27:19):
realizing it is a disease. And I'm not the
only one out there. Yeah, like you say, you walk into any bookstore, there's a
whole chapter on sober curious books. Celebrities just
are open about it. Whether it's Bradley Cooper and Brad Pitt or,
you know, Jamie Lee Curtis. Musicians sing about
getting sober in recovery, even the younger generation. There's sober
(27:41):
parties, sober dances, and they don't look at booze the way I did or my
father or grandfather did. I think the impression now
with young people is that booze isn't cool. It's kind of weird.
It's kind of how I felt when my parents would tell me they would
smoke in airplanes. I'm like, what? And that's a good thing. And
all this leads to a culture where we can talk about it openly,
(28:03):
where someone like me can tell my story and hopefully it
reaches somebody that's maybe not in a 12 step program. Another thing that you
talked about openly on more than one
occasion when I was doing my research is the
importance of storytelling personal stories. And
is that so that if people put themselves in the shoes
(28:25):
of somebody that is an alcoholic, it's to
make them be more empathetic? Or is it more to reach
out to people that are struggling with this disease to say
there's a different path to walk? Well, I never set out to have a
message, Tony. This writing just felt good and people
started to publish it and I started to get calls and residency
(28:47):
opportunities. I am not a sobriety coach. I'm still in
treatment. You know, I'm not a representative of aa. I'm just
a guy that writes my story. But I think why my
story resonates is because it is so vulnerable and people see
themselves in it that. That maybe aren't in a 12 step program, like,
wow, this guy can talk about it. And since writing about it, I've had
(29:10):
so many people from my past and tons of strangers just reach out
to me saying, you just described what I've done and
I've never read that before. And I've had a lot of parents say, I think
I understand my daughter a bit more. I'm having a bit
more patience with her. I've had people come to the Vancouver island where I
live and look me up for a coffee. Storytelling helps. It
(29:32):
gives people an opening. It gives people permission to see this. Well,
it's not my fault. You know, personally, I'm
accountable and it's my responsibility. If I take that first drink,
and I'm accountable for all the things I did that I need to amend. But
I'm not responsible for how I'm wired or the disease kicking in.
And that's freeing. Jordan, there's people that have called you out because they feel you
(29:55):
don't have the currency to talk about it, whether that's how many years you've been
sober or that you're not following the right program. What do
you say to them? Well, you know, I've been at this for 30 years. I've
had sober time I've had not sober time. I'm coming from the trenches.
Sometimes I think maybe this is more effective than the guy with 30
year sobriety or the biker in the school gymnasium
(30:16):
scaring people straight. Those are old stories. I can tell you exactly
what happened to me this morning in treatment. And I think that might be
refreshing to people. I had a guy, a couple people
from AAA reach me and they say, well, you haven't reached humility
if you're on TV talking about this or you don't have the
authority to talk about this. And I believe I do. My
(30:38):
life and my family was destroyed by this. I can talk
about this. And I don't appreciate in some of these programs that when you do
have a relapse, which alcohol doctors say
is part of the disease, some of these programs make you start back
to zero, put your hand up in meetings and
admit that you are making a big mistake and you didn't do it.
(31:01):
And it feels like your time up till then has erased.
This is the first time this year that I'm looking at
all my time as valuable, good and bad. I don't
start over when I get sick. I'm not a bad person. I just get
sick. Everybody seems to look under the rock for trauma,
and if you don't have it, you seem to. They almost question whether
(31:23):
you're capable of healing. Share the story where
you realize that trauma isn't always the
reason why. There's a misconception in treatment centers that everyone that
goes in, even Gabor Mate, says everybody has trauma
with addiction. And I'm telling you, Tony, I grew up in the best family.
I was privileged, was great at school, I was great in
(31:46):
social circles. I had a great career, beautiful wife, kids.
I haven't found my trauma and I believe I don't have it. So
when I was in treatment, after two weeks, there would be people in group therapy
where their light bulb would go on about their mother or their father or some
abuse. And then bam, I found my trauma. And I would get
down on myself. After years of trying this, what is my trauma? You know, I've
(32:09):
had some strange things in the past, but I didn't have this secret. And it
was a counselor at this place called Edgewood,
this nice treatment center on the island that took me aside. When he saw
that I was struggling with this, he goes, I'm going to tell you something that's
going to free you. And I said, what? He goes, you don't have trauma.
You don't have anything. You're just wired this way and you have a disease.
(32:30):
And that freed me, Tony, that I wasn't
failing at having trauma. I wasn't failing at sharing, failing at
journaling, failing at praying. I just had this thing
that's really powerful, and that's okay. I'm going to tell
you something, and I'm not a psychologist. Don't pretend to be. I think your trauma,
your whole life has been imposter syndrome. And I think alcohol was your original
(32:53):
way to mask social situations. But I think even today
you're on this show because you write some beautiful words that impact
people. You have every right to do that, whether you were one day sober,
nine months sober, or, heaven forbid, if you ever fell off again and wrote
about it. I think what you're doing is you're allowing other
people to understand whether they actually are walking
(33:16):
in the shoes of being an alcoholic or, sadly, the friends and
family that also pay a price. I'm looking forward to next
decade with you and just seeing much in the way you're helping these young
kids with reading and writing and feeling the benefit of that.
I think you've got a lot more, many more people ahead of you that you're
going to help. Thank you. That means a lot to me, what you just said.
(33:37):
I do think I have imposter syndrome. Yeah. Jordan,
what advice could you offer people listening, whether
they're struggling with self esteem, drinking too much
drugs? What advice can you give to people from all those 20 treatment
centers that you'd say, here's a couple things or one thing that you should do
immediately just to buy time or put
(33:59):
things in perspective? Well, one thing is connection, reaching out.
I had trouble with that for a long time. I can write about it. But
to pick up a phone and tell a guy that I know, say,
I'm really hurting here, that's really important. But I also
think it's important to realize that. But if you
are struggling with this and see signs of it, you have to think of it
(34:21):
medically as well. You know, if you get a rash and you think it might
lead to shingles, see a doctor. And, you know, and the doctor with
this can lead you to counseling, treatment, medication. Right. So
don't feel ashamed. If you feel that you have
a sense of alcohol use disorder, going to a
church basement and feeling ashamed and drinking bad
(34:43):
coffee without knowing anybody maybe isn't the first step. Maybe you could see a
doctor, maybe talk to a friend. There are so many avenues. And,
Tony, I wish I did this 30 years ago, but I accept that this
is my Journey. Jordan, I always end my podcast with my three
takeaways and this is maybe not a takeaway from something you
said, but I want to. Here's what I have to say to you. You might
(35:05):
have found your calling. You keep backtracking. I'm not a counselor. I'm
not here to give advice. I'm still going undergoing treatment. But I think the words
that you write and the courage you show coming out and being honest and
authentic are as important to people suffering
as also knowing that there's like minded people like me and it happens to be
a celebrity like Bradley Cooper. And I think you're holding back a
(35:27):
little bit and maybe you've held back your entire life, your potential, but I think
that when you get that book out and you continue to speak about it,
you're going to realize that all the pain that you've caused others and the
pain you've caused yourself out of it, there is a certain silver lining.
The second thing is this more in me and I'm free of me, which
is such a powerful thought that you're actually finding who you
(35:49):
are after all these years by freeing everything you used to be.
And I think that part of us, when we go on these journeys of recovery
or trying to improve, we have to shed things along the way. And I
think this light has gone on. That said, I'm going to get rid of this
because I want more of that. And the last thing thing was did I
find alcohol or did alcohol find me? And how
(36:11):
you've been this magnetic connection to everything to do with
from your family used to have martini nights with jazz to being in a
martini brand with your brother to as a young guy having a
favorite chair in Legion, which to me everybody else in that chair must have
been 50 years older than you. To me it's a very honest my dad was
an alcoholic and I, I can tell you that you, you've given me a much
(36:33):
better perspective on how hard it is
to push back in something that invades the brain
at the level it invaded yours. So for all of that and more, I'm delighted
that we had a chance to bring you on to Chatter that matters. And I
can't wait you come back on when your book's out. Thanks so much, Tony. That
means a lot to me.
(36:55):
Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting Hoarding Chatter that Matters.
It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening and let's chat soon.
I've never met a perfect person. I've seen people with
swagger and demeanor that might feel they're pretty close.
In fact, they might be very close. But more often than not,
we have flaws. We have demons. We
have friction points that prevent us from moving forward.
We have motivators that encourage us to take that step forward.
(00:26):
But sometimes those friction points aren't just, I'm feeling
lazy like a victim, but it's a disease
that takes over your mind. I didn't stop, I didn't drink like
normal people. After a while, I thought about alcohol every day.
And in this story, this disease is alcoholism. My guest
is Jordan Kawchuk. You don't have the authority to talk about this, and I believe
(00:50):
I do. My life and my family was destroyed.
I can talk about this. He's waged a battle against
alcoholism for most of his life. 30 years. He's in his
50s, and for the first time, he feels he might have a suit
of armor to counter it. But to put on that armor, he had to do
a lot of soul searching about who he is and why.
(01:12):
He matters to realize that connections are different. When
you're fully sober, it's about listening. It's about humility. It's
just about breathing, learning how to sit still. Stay with me to the
end when there's a moment of revelation where Jordan might have found an
answer for something he's searching for for a very long time.
Thank you. That means a lot to me, what you just said. Yeah.
(01:34):
But now somebody in and out of treatment centers over
20 times, someone has caused himself and his family
and friends so much pain. Joins me today to talk about
what life means to him sober, and with it, the
lessons we can all learn from it. I finally hit my
zone.
(01:56):
Hi, it's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter that Matters, presented
by rbc. If you can please subscribe to the podcast and
ratings reviews, well, they're always. Welcome and they're always appreciated.
Jordan Kochuk, welcome to Chatter that Matters.
Hello. So, Jordan, we're going to get into this roller coaster
(02:17):
ride of your life. Big declines and a lot of movements on the
way up. But before we even step into that roller coaster, I want to
wind back the clock. And from what I understand, I'm
talking to someone who was a gifted student, loved the stage,
but also a restless spirit chasing chaos. What
kid isn't anxious and, you know, restless? But,
(02:40):
Tony, there's a theory that people are born with an alcoholic brain long before they
drink. And I think that's related to mental health. But I was taken out of
class into special projects classes. I was
very creative, but very restless. I had trouble in social
situations growing up, too. As far as
alcohol went, I lived in a house where dad and
(03:02):
brothers all listened to cool 50s
jazz records, and martinis were in the house.
And alcohol was glorified and romanticized. It
was Frank Sinatra. It was Dean Martin. But I remember too,
in school in grade six, I had to write an essay
about some fiction situation. I remember watching old SCTV
(03:24):
reruns at that time, and my whole essay was about
this one soap opera on SCTV and the Doctor's office
with John Candy. And my whole essay was about the drink cart.
The lawyer walked in, poured himself a bourbon. This guy added
ice. The whole essay in grade six until my teacher had to call my
parents. I also remember through therapy that
(03:47):
there was a time before I even thought about drink or even
try to drink. We're talking like grade four. I remember saying to my mom
on holidays, boy, I could really use a drink. She goes, well, it's hot out.
Let's get a Kool Aid. I said, no, like a drink drink. I had no
idea what that means, but I said, it. It's. It was implanted early.
When did you have that first drink? I started with my friends
(04:09):
in grade 11, grade 12, parties after. In the weekend
after band or high school. When I took that first drink, I
was home. Something clicked, something. Something
I didn't know. It was my wiring at the time. It took me a long
time to know that, but something felt perfect. One of
the interviews that I listened to that you were in, you talked about, you know,
(04:31):
I had adhd, I had anxiety, and
that lubricant had an immediate and
positive impact. Do you think that was a connection in terms of saying,
I don't want to feel this way, so therefore I'm going to mask it with
some alcohol? I think it was the easy fix. I felt good. I
didn't feel depressed. I didn't feel anxious. I felt like I fit in. And
(04:53):
I think because of my wiring or the way I am, that ease
and that comfort turned into addiction.
But it was definitely something that made me feel better and didn't make
sense because long before people stopped drinking in
university or at a party or a wedding, I didn't stop.
I didn't drink like normal people. After a while, I thought about
(05:15):
alcohol every day. I would get worried if there was a
wine bottle at a dinner party running out. It
turned into a craving and a novelty, into
a pathology, into an addiction into. Into just. Just
hell. You describe this in such a unique way. I love
when people frame things that you can immediately step into your shoes. You
(05:37):
said alcoholism isn't a moral failing or a lack of
willpower. It's a biopsychosocial spiritual disease.
And it hijacks your brain, your body and your spirit. Yeah. And you
don't understand it. There is a voice inside of you saying, this isn't right. This
isn't you. But that. That voice gets quickly drowned out. And I
guess that's addiction, but it is a
(05:57):
biopsychosocial spiritual disease. It tears
down the architecture of my life. It
removes salience in my life. Important things aren't important anymore,
even though in my heart and in my soul I know they are. Destroys
relationships, finances. It leaves you with a
spiritual hole. It just takes everything from you,
(06:19):
but you keep going back because that's how you're wired. And a lot of people,
we call them normies, don't understand that. I grew up thinking
a drunk or an alcoholic was the hobo. Riding the rails
in a crumpled fedora and a bottle with XXX on it.
Moonshine. But this disease is
everywhere and it doesn't discriminate. What age were you that
(06:40):
you said, I've got a problem and I need help? It was about in
my mid-20s that my wife at the time said,
well, you know, this is too much. We're really worried about you. Go get help.
And I just started with some classes in Calgary, and then I
eventually in Vancouver, when we moved there, pursued my first
treatment center. And, you know, you talk about your first, and this is one of
(07:02):
the things that I really opened my eyes to, how tough this disease
is. You've been to five addiction treatment centers in 20 years.
So when did you go there because your wife
or someone you loved encouraged you to do that? And when did you start
going there because you said, jordan, if I don't do something,
I won't be around. Yeah, I wish I had the story, Tony, that
(07:25):
I just woke up one day and decided that was it. I'm stopping this.
There are people that are one and done like that. I went to my first
treatment center. It was a month long. And I remember a guy telling me, you
know, this is not going to be your first treatment center. And I thought he
was crazy. I thought I was killing it. I was writing the homework well, I
was nice. I played cards well. But looking back, I wasn't
(07:45):
doing the work. So I've been in sober houses
that have no budget. We Ate frozen pizza. For two months. I've
been in a treatment center in Surrey that
was next to a biker house. It wasn't treatment, it
was dysfunctional. And I've been in a five star, so to speak,
treatment center with fountains and great food and great facilities.
(08:09):
I didn't want to be a frequent flyer at treatment centers. Treatment centers
aren't always the answer. And when I enter a treatment center like a wide
eyed, unbroken horse, I don't want to
go. Like you said, Tony, I did probably went to the first couple treatment
centers for family, for a wife, for a partner. You
know, some guys go to treatment because they're court ordered or forced by family.
(08:31):
You know, I've gone for a different reason, but it took me this long
to finally go for myself after
detox into a long term place that
really has given me a shift. So before we get into
that, because the other thing I was interested in, I think you wrote an article
is you have this sense of humor about it, which I, you know, and I
(08:52):
almost find comics are funny because they're masking their
pain very often, not always. But you talked about
what it's like to live in a treatment center, living with 20 other
men. You know, as much as I felt for you, at the same time, I
couldn't help but sort of laugh at the way you paint this picture. And I
thought maybe you could share with the listeners what a day in the life
(09:13):
is like when you've got 20, 20 people at all different
stages of recovery. Some there because they've been court ordered
and others there because of their partners encouraging them and others there because
they want to take a shot. I was the only non smoker, non vaper, 20
guys that sat around in the smoke pit talking about lifting weights,
trucks and all the women they've conquered. And I show up and I'm
(09:36):
a guy in a collared shirt, so they think I'm staff. I have a box
full of books and my Moleskine notebooks and I never fit
in. And it's funny because some I've been told at treatment
centers, well, do you think you're too good for us? Actually, no, I don't think
I'm good enough. I can't relate. I can't show vulnerability
here. That said, a day in the life, you know, in a
(09:58):
lower end treatment center, which is great too, you're in a bedroom with
six guys, three bunk beds. It's kind of hell, especially if
you're already a bad sleeper. It's not a very healing place.
20 guys sharing a shower, fighting over chores, getting
the last banana. Getting mad is a constant back
and forth of how to relate, how to practice recovery and
(10:20):
also survive. I've been bullied at some of these treatment centers by
the gym bros. Then again, I find humor in a lot of
them. I remember going to one treatment center where one of
the staff, who was a guy that had one year sobriety and
I was a little rough around the edges, wanted to do a meditation class,
and he had us all lie down, all of us ragtag
(10:43):
people in beards and ripped T shirts. And he walked around the.
He had us close our eyes, and he said, okay,
put yourself in a place. You're at an effing beach and there's a bunch of
effing chicks and bikinis. Now you're at peace, right? F
this. F that was our meditation. And I just thought, if you can't laugh at
stuff like that, you know, the other day we were in our.
(11:06):
Our circle with a daily topic. What would you want to
wake up and have different. We have a guy missing a leg and a guy
that's blind in our treatment center, and they all said, I want to be a
Marvel comic guy. I want. I want to fl. I want to be invisible.
Don't you want your leg? Don't you want your sight? You know, these are. These
are funny things about treatment when you're living in this microscopic world
(11:27):
and you have to have humor. I could write a book that would
devastate my family and readers about
all the things that happened to me. Ambulances picking
me up in Starbucks bathrooms and blowing jobs
and hurting my family. But there's also a humorous side,
which helps me recover and also helps people relate.
(11:49):
You really do have an ability with words. And you talked about
the distinction between being dry and being sober,
emphasizing that it's a lifelong endeavor that changes everything.
There's a lot of people out there that are drinking less, you know, curious, sober.
But that's different, right? It is, and it's great if people
are sober, curious. I have a good friend that is four months without
(12:12):
booze just because he's tired of it and he wants to
improve his health and his fitness. But being dry is different
than being sober. This is what prompted my whole outing essay
when I outed myself in the Globe and Mail because I was watching yet another
dry January go by, and I was in a treatment center,
and there were these pithy posts on Facebook about, hey,
(12:35):
one more day to go. I'm almost at the finish line. This is impossible. I
was like, wait, wait. I don't want you to feel sorry for me, but I
have the other 334 days to go. I'll tell you what that's like.
So being dry is just changing your drink. And I think being
sober is changing everything. Being dry is white, knuckling
and counting days. Being sober is
(12:56):
a whole new set of values and behaviors. A connection with
something spiritual, a reconnection with self. It is
everything that's different and good. I know people in
some 12 step programs that are 5, 10, 15 years
sober, but they're dry, they're miserable, they're still
hanging out with terrible people. Complaining, cynical.
(13:20):
That's not being sober, that's just being dry. And I've been both. You
know, it's interesting. It seems like alcohol was your social lubricant
to connecting with people. You know, I'm going to drink before I go to the
party so that I can, you know, be at the party today.
You've completely reversed your thinking. And you say that the
opposite of addiction is connections. Actively rebuilding and
(13:41):
fostering connections not only with yourself, but your family and friends.
Unpack that a little bit for me. The Globe and Mill article, when
I outed myself as an alcoholic was supposed to be just a look
at. I was questioning, did I find alcohol or
did alcohol find me? If I looked at my
past without even trying, I was.
(14:05):
My favorite artist was Tom Waits. I read Charles
Bukowski. My favorite movie was Barfly.
My first job on a university bulletin board was being a
Bacardi Breezer rep. My next job was in a wine shop.
I formed a band with my brother that was based around
martinis and we traveled the world singing about drinking.
(14:27):
I made a movie with France called American Beer. This is a big
coincidence, or not a coincidence at all. But booze has
followed me, so I was always the go
to guy to have fun and drink with and go to concerts. My
default then became drunk. So my connections were very
superficial. Like my dad, I love being a regular at a bar.
(14:49):
So I would go to the Legion and hang out for hours.
And I loved having my own stool there. But those connections were
superficial. It took me a long time, too long to realize
that connections are different when you're fully sober. It's about
listening, it's about humility. It's just about breathing, learning how to
sit still, learning how to sit down with somebody and have a
(15:11):
conversation. I'd really, you know, being in the media for years,
interviewing rock stars and much music, I thought I was a good
conversationalist. I can't do it. I'm learning how to do that.
I'm learning how to do so much. I'm learning how to eat again, learning how
to have sex. I'm learning how to read, write. It's a lot
when you talk about, I'm learning how to do all this stuff. It's almost like
(15:31):
you've come, you know, the Hollywood thing where the person was lost in the jungle
for 10 years and comes out and has to rethink their life. And is it
happened gradually or is this one day you wake up, you've been sober for a
while, and you look around and going, I'm a different person and
I'm now on a completely different journey. Or is it just slowly
happen and manifest that way that you can come to the conclusion now?
(15:53):
You know, like a good summer camp treatment can be like, you have this
jolt, this spirit and spark, and you have all these wonderful new friends and
you feel alive. But after 30 days, you just have a
binder full of homework and you go back to the same home, the same
problems, the same situations. The trick is
maintaining that spark and carrying it on through life.
(16:15):
So you are like a castaway coming back to life. And there's a reason that
treatment centers and 12 step programs have a very, very low
percentage of success, is because nothing really changes. You
are inspired for 30, 40 days in a treatment center and you just walk
out with a binder and a pamphlet for where AA meetings are. And
it's funny because parents will pay and remortgage their house
(16:37):
$50,000 thinking their child will get cured. And it's just
a business. It took some of us three
decades to be a drunk or have
alcohol use disorder, which is the gentler, modern
term for it. It took me years to develop this. I'm not going to catch
it in 40 days or from reading a book harder or from
(16:58):
praying harder. Tony, I want to tell you just how complex and
confusing alcohol use disorder is. I've had
AA sponsors telling me I'm not doing the steps or reading the book
hard enough. I've had doctors telling me relapse is okay
and you need more medications. I've had family members say, you know,
instead of a drink, pick up a nice latte. I've had
(17:21):
counselors saying, you haven't found your trauma. You know, it goes
on and on. And so it's no wonder people don't want to open up
or face this because it's. You get so much
confusing information. And it took me this long, three
decades I'm in my 50s now. To find the perfect
cocktail of medicine, counseling, self work, and
(17:43):
pardon the cocktail pun, but actually don't because that shows
you how this is in me. I use the word cocktail.
Did you ever walk out of a treatment center and having a drink immediately
I first want. And did you think that was just one drink and I can
control it now, or was it just I can't wait to have a drink? Tony,
I'm an educated professional guy and I have walked out of a hospital
(18:05):
with a tube in my arm just to run to the liquor store.
That's how strong it was. My hippocampus or my lizard brain says
you need one. The first 30 day
treatment center I went to, my mom came out to visit
and was with my wife. And I came home and
it was a big celebration because then it was seen as like
(18:28):
while you're cured. And I remember that night, I missed
my bar friend so much. There was something that pulled me, something
insane that pulled me. I went back to the Legion to see all the old
guys, to feel at home, something, something of
connection. And I picked up a drink. If
I take one sip, it'll lead me down
(18:50):
the addiction path until I take down every. I cannot
stop once I have the drink. It's not being lush. I cannot stop. That's
my disease. Stick around
because when we return, Jordan and I discuss the healing
power of the written word and this extraordinary journey he's on.
To find forgiveness, to find time to contemplate,
(19:13):
and most importantly, to find time with his daughters.
Hi, this is Tony Chapman, host of the radio show and podcast Chatter that
Matters. Did you know that only one in five youth with a mental
health illness can get access to the care they need? Well,
a big shout out to the RBC foundation and RBC Future Launch
(19:36):
for supporting over 150 youth mental health
organizations. And in doing so, they help youth and their families
get the care they need and deserve.
Being sober is a whole new set of
values and behaviors. A connection with something spiritual,
(19:57):
a reconnection with self. It is everything that's different
and good. You're listening to Jordan Kawchuk doesn't have
to do this interview. Many would be embarrassed by it. I mean, here's a human
being that has spent 30 years battling alcoholism.
He's in his 20th treatment center today. He's nine months sober
and he shares the story. So we can walk in the shoes with
(20:19):
people that battle this disease and also
hopefully have empathy for how hard it is for many
to conquer it.
One of the Patterns that's emerged on this show is the importance of
journaling and writing as part of the healing process.
And we're going to talk a little bit about your upcoming book, but it sounds
(20:42):
like that was a big part of your 30 year path
to being sober, was your ability to start writing these things down,
really coming to terms with who you are and how serious this disease was.
And I have to admit, Tony, I'm a terrible journaler. But you know,
after writing for years in television and radio, I gave myself permission to,
(21:02):
to call myself a writer in the last few years. And it was only
when I wrote with complete vulnerability that something
clicked and people started to read and I started to feel better. When I
write now about recovery or my
path or my journey, and I'm really in the zone.
I feel like more me and I feel free of
(21:24):
me, which I think is a good explanation for sobriety too.
I'm not trying to rebrand myself or tell others what to do
or make people feel story for me. I just write what is
real, which I think is the goal of writing and somehow it's
resonating. Your upcoming book, why I Wasn't There
is I would say partly therapy, but
(21:47):
partly an apology to your daughters. It's not directly
addressed to them, but people that have
alcoholic parents, children of addiction, will recognize
themselves in it. My journey with my daughters has been tough
and they couldn't understand and I couldn't understand why I
just couldn't be there. Whether it was treatment or I was sick,
(22:09):
I guess, you know, we talk about rock bottoms and every bottom has a
basement. But it was a couple of years ago when I was doing
really well that I flew out to Kelowna to see my daughter's
grade 10 play. And the night before, something
in my brain in the hotel told me to have a beer. And
Tony, I didn't make it out of that hotel room for two weeks until my
(22:31):
brother had to rescue me. My daughters didn't talk to me for over
a year to protect themselves, not to punish me. Since
then, I've had an amazing reunion
with them that is beyond words and a gift of sobriety.
This book isn't about an apology to them or
me blaming my disease, me blaming my genetics, me blaming
(22:54):
situations. It's my story. It's my story about
present day living with a bunch of jailbirds and starting to tutor
kids. And it's a story of my past, the good and bad
things that happen to me in alcohol. I mean, I've done some wonderful things.
I've Played parties for Tom Hanks. I've played on
(23:15):
top of the World Trade Center. I've had a lot of great things and there's
a lot of terrible, terrible things. And they're all going to be in this book
to somehow say that's why I wasn't there. It's
not okay that I wasn't there. But, but here's what happened.
Talk to me about what you're doing now because you just sort of referenced living
with 20 jailbirds. So I'm curious, what's Jordan up to here with his
(23:37):
jailbirds? I love the word jailbirds and they know that I call them jail. They
call themselves jailbirds and they're wonderful, wonderful men. Right now I'm living
in a therapeutic community. Been there for nine months
and it's unlike any treatment or program
I've, I've done. So we all live in a community. There's no top down
counselor and boss. We all just live together and learned how to
(23:59):
communicate and live live and recover together. And it's just a
wonderful brotherhood. There's an irony that I'm living
with 20 jailbirds. There's once in a while a guy will come
in that hasn't been a jail. But there have been months where I'm the only
guy who doesn't smoke and doesn't have prison experience.
Which is great because they teach me the wrong things and the right things.
(24:21):
But the irony is I was allowed a little bit of a part
time job in this treatment center and I wanted to do something with writing
and I applied to a learning center and I'm
tutoring little kids, kindergarten up to grade 11, reading and
writing and it's just a little over minimum wage and only 10,
11 hours a week. And it's the most meaningful job I've had in
(24:43):
decades. And I somehow, you know, not to get all woo
woo on you, Tony, but I sometimes sit with kids,
two sisters that are the exact age gap of my daughters. You know,
these kids are in grade two and grade six. I have this
ache and this homesickness, but then this gratitude that I'm
getting sort of a universe redo to read and write
(25:06):
with these kids that I didn't get a chance to do with my daughters. And
how are you financially surviving? I mean, I have to believe you didn't save a
lot of money during this roller coaster ride. No, the roller coaster rides.
Alcohol use disorder destroys finances. And I think there's a
misconception that you just drink your money away. That that's not it.
There you you end up having to pay for hotels and visas
(25:28):
and you just need money to live. So I unfortunately have had to really
dip into my savings and RSP and now I'm living
like I am. Like I'm 60. I'm rebuilding my life at a late age.
Am I worried about retiring and financial? Absolutely.
But I, you know, I get a little help at this, this place that I'm
living. It is funded, so I get to save money there.
(25:51):
I have all the confidence that with doing the next right thing
and being sober and my, I guess my gift of writing
something will come about. In the past, I've had the
mistake of, you know, a couple months sobriety and then landing a job.
I can tell people about my work experience and get these jobs, but
I can't maintain it if I'm not clear. Yeah,
(26:13):
financially it's tough. And how strong do you feel like are you at that point
where the next time you're in a hotel room and that whispered,
you're saying just have a beer, that you now have the
resilience to counter of that? My daughter is graduating grade 12.
This is the daughter who I blew it with a couple years ago and we
had a great reunion when I went to see her play in grade 12 where
(26:34):
she was the lead singing 20 songs. And we reunited
in the lobby and she was, she was crying tears of
joy, tears of confusion, and she ran into my arms. We cried into each other's
arms for a good minute and that was the best moment of my life.
So my, my goal in this treatment center is to go see her graduate.
And I don't want to go to a hotel by myself. I know I can
(26:57):
do it. But just to build trust and to be safe, I'm taking
my good friend Steve and we're going on a dude's road
trip and I'm going to celebrate graduation with my two daughters. That's
beautiful story. The other thing that it's shifting gears a little bit, but
your insight that the increasing openness and involvement from
celebrities and musicians is actually working in the favor of people
(27:19):
realizing it is a disease. And I'm not the
only one out there. Yeah, like you say, you walk into any bookstore, there's a
whole chapter on sober curious books. Celebrities just
are open about it. Whether it's Bradley Cooper and Brad Pitt or,
you know, Jamie Lee Curtis. Musicians sing about
getting sober in recovery, even the younger generation. There's sober
(27:41):
parties, sober dances, and they don't look at booze the way I did or my
father or grandfather did. I think the impression now
with young people is that booze isn't cool. It's kind of weird.
It's kind of how I felt when my parents would tell me they would
smoke in airplanes. I'm like, what? And that's a good thing. And
all this leads to a culture where we can talk about it openly,
(28:03):
where someone like me can tell my story and hopefully it
reaches somebody that's maybe not in a 12 step program. Another thing that you
talked about openly on more than one
occasion when I was doing my research is the
importance of storytelling personal stories. And
is that so that if people put themselves in the shoes
(28:25):
of somebody that is an alcoholic, it's to
make them be more empathetic? Or is it more to reach
out to people that are struggling with this disease to say
there's a different path to walk? Well, I never set out to have a
message, Tony. This writing just felt good and people
started to publish it and I started to get calls and residency
(28:47):
opportunities. I am not a sobriety coach. I'm still in
treatment. You know, I'm not a representative of aa. I'm just
a guy that writes my story. But I think why my
story resonates is because it is so vulnerable and people see
themselves in it that. That maybe aren't in a 12 step program, like,
wow, this guy can talk about it. And since writing about it, I've had
(29:10):
so many people from my past and tons of strangers just reach out
to me saying, you just described what I've done and
I've never read that before. And I've had a lot of parents say, I think
I understand my daughter a bit more. I'm having a bit
more patience with her. I've had people come to the Vancouver island where I
live and look me up for a coffee. Storytelling helps. It
(29:32):
gives people an opening. It gives people permission to see this. Well,
it's not my fault. You know, personally, I'm
accountable and it's my responsibility. If I take that first drink,
and I'm accountable for all the things I did that I need to amend. But
I'm not responsible for how I'm wired or the disease kicking in.
And that's freeing. Jordan, there's people that have called you out because they feel you
(29:55):
don't have the currency to talk about it, whether that's how many years you've been
sober or that you're not following the right program. What do
you say to them? Well, you know, I've been at this for 30 years. I've
had sober time I've had not sober time. I'm coming from the trenches.
Sometimes I think maybe this is more effective than the guy with 30
year sobriety or the biker in the school gymnasium
(30:16):
scaring people straight. Those are old stories. I can tell you exactly
what happened to me this morning in treatment. And I think that might be
refreshing to people. I had a guy, a couple people
from AAA reach me and they say, well, you haven't reached humility
if you're on TV talking about this or you don't have the
authority to talk about this. And I believe I do. My
(30:38):
life and my family was destroyed by this. I can talk
about this. And I don't appreciate in some of these programs that when you do
have a relapse, which alcohol doctors say
is part of the disease, some of these programs make you start back
to zero, put your hand up in meetings and
admit that you are making a big mistake and you didn't do it.
(31:01):
And it feels like your time up till then has erased.
This is the first time this year that I'm looking at
all my time as valuable, good and bad. I don't
start over when I get sick. I'm not a bad person. I just get
sick. Everybody seems to look under the rock for trauma,
and if you don't have it, you seem to. They almost question whether
(31:23):
you're capable of healing. Share the story where
you realize that trauma isn't always the
reason why. There's a misconception in treatment centers that everyone that
goes in, even Gabor Mate, says everybody has trauma
with addiction. And I'm telling you, Tony, I grew up in the best family.
I was privileged, was great at school, I was great in
(31:46):
social circles. I had a great career, beautiful wife, kids.
I haven't found my trauma and I believe I don't have it. So
when I was in treatment, after two weeks, there would be people in group therapy
where their light bulb would go on about their mother or their father or some
abuse. And then bam, I found my trauma. And I would get
down on myself. After years of trying this, what is my trauma? You know, I've
(32:09):
had some strange things in the past, but I didn't have this secret. And it
was a counselor at this place called Edgewood,
this nice treatment center on the island that took me aside. When he saw
that I was struggling with this, he goes, I'm going to tell you something that's
going to free you. And I said, what? He goes, you don't have trauma.
You don't have anything. You're just wired this way and you have a disease.
(32:30):
And that freed me, Tony, that I wasn't
failing at having trauma. I wasn't failing at sharing, failing at
journaling, failing at praying. I just had this thing
that's really powerful, and that's okay. I'm going to tell
you something, and I'm not a psychologist. Don't pretend to be. I think your trauma,
your whole life has been imposter syndrome. And I think alcohol was your original
(32:53):
way to mask social situations. But I think even today
you're on this show because you write some beautiful words that impact
people. You have every right to do that, whether you were one day sober,
nine months sober, or, heaven forbid, if you ever fell off again and wrote
about it. I think what you're doing is you're allowing other
people to understand whether they actually are walking
(33:16):
in the shoes of being an alcoholic or, sadly, the friends and
family that also pay a price. I'm looking forward to next
decade with you and just seeing much in the way you're helping these young
kids with reading and writing and feeling the benefit of that.
I think you've got a lot more, many more people ahead of you that you're
going to help. Thank you. That means a lot to me, what you just said.
(33:37):
I do think I have imposter syndrome. Yeah. Jordan,
what advice could you offer people listening, whether
they're struggling with self esteem, drinking too much
drugs? What advice can you give to people from all those 20 treatment
centers that you'd say, here's a couple things or one thing that you should do
immediately just to buy time or put
(33:59):
things in perspective? Well, one thing is connection, reaching out.
I had trouble with that for a long time. I can write about it. But
to pick up a phone and tell a guy that I know, say,
I'm really hurting here, that's really important. But I also
think it's important to realize that. But if you
are struggling with this and see signs of it, you have to think of it
(34:21):
medically as well. You know, if you get a rash and you think it might
lead to shingles, see a doctor. And, you know, and the doctor with
this can lead you to counseling, treatment, medication. Right. So
don't feel ashamed. If you feel that you have
a sense of alcohol use disorder, going to a
church basement and feeling ashamed and drinking bad
(34:43):
coffee without knowing anybody maybe isn't the first step. Maybe you could see a
doctor, maybe talk to a friend. There are so many avenues. And,
Tony, I wish I did this 30 years ago, but I accept that this
is my Journey. Jordan, I always end my podcast with my three
takeaways and this is maybe not a takeaway from something you
said, but I want to. Here's what I have to say to you. You might
(35:05):
have found your calling. You keep backtracking. I'm not a counselor. I'm
not here to give advice. I'm still going undergoing treatment. But I think the words
that you write and the courage you show coming out and being honest and
authentic are as important to people suffering
as also knowing that there's like minded people like me and it happens to be
a celebrity like Bradley Cooper. And I think you're holding back a
(35:27):
little bit and maybe you've held back your entire life, your potential, but I think
that when you get that book out and you continue to speak about it,
you're going to realize that all the pain that you've caused others and the
pain you've caused yourself out of it, there is a certain silver lining.
The second thing is this more in me and I'm free of me, which
is such a powerful thought that you're actually finding who you
(35:49):
are after all these years by freeing everything you used to be.
And I think that part of us, when we go on these journeys of recovery
or trying to improve, we have to shed things along the way. And I
think this light has gone on. That said, I'm going to get rid of this
because I want more of that. And the last thing thing was did I
find alcohol or did alcohol find me? And how
(36:11):
you've been this magnetic connection to everything to do with
from your family used to have martini nights with jazz to being in a
martini brand with your brother to as a young guy having a
favorite chair in Legion, which to me everybody else in that chair must have
been 50 years older than you. To me it's a very honest my dad was
an alcoholic and I, I can tell you that you, you've given me a much
(36:33):
better perspective on how hard it is
to push back in something that invades the brain
at the level it invaded yours. So for all of that and more, I'm delighted
that we had a chance to bring you on to Chatter that matters. And I
can't wait you come back on when your book's out. Thanks so much, Tony. That
means a lot to me.
(36:55):
Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting Hoarding Chatter that Matters.
It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening and let's chat soon.
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