August 28, 2025 • 35 mins
There is no mistaking Alanis Morisette for anyone else. She is the one and only Alanis - Can you even think of anyone else out there named Alanis?
Ms. Morissette also has one of the most recognizable singing voices of her generation, one that helped her sell more than 33 million copies of her album, Jagged Little Pill. Only Shania Twain’s Come On Over has sold more copies than Jagged Little Pill, making it the second best selling album by any Canadian ever. That list includes Celine Dion, Drake, The Weeknd, Justin Bieber, Rush and Nickelback. In fact, no Canadian male or Canadian band has sold more copies of an album than Alanis. She is that awesome.
Jagged Little Pill reinvented the female singer-songwriter in pop music, and gave women the confidence and strength to express themselves authentically.
Rolling Stone called it “a landmark moment for the music industry and the soundtrack of a generation.” And it didn’t take long for that new generation of self-assured female singer-songwriters to emerge in the wake of Alanis’s success.
This is the story of its massive single Ironic, with newly unearthed audio from Alanis Morissette herself.
Written by Cam Lindsay for iHeartRadio.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is not like rain on your wedding day or
a free ride when you've already paid. I'm Ruby Carr
and this is the incredible story of Alanis Morisette's
Speaker 2 (00:10):
classic
Speaker 1 (00:10):
ironic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You know the
songs just making people feel something.
Pleasure to work on this song with her, but do
you know the history? It's a struggle making any kind
of record. I don't always have the direction or concept.
This is Encore, an in-depth look at the stories behind
the music. Here's Iart Radio's Ruby Carr.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
There is no mistaking Alanis Morisette for anyone else. She
is the one and only Alanis, and I mean that. Like,
can you even think of anyone else out there named Alanis? Uh,
but not only that, Miss Morrissette also has one of
the most recognizable singing voices of her generation, one that
helped countless heartbroken individuals sing out their feelings, one that
(00:56):
helped her sell more than 33 million copies.
Of her album Jagged Little Pill. Only Shania Twain's Come
On Over has sold more copies than Jagged Little Pill,
making it the second best selling album by any Canadian ever.
And just for the record, that list includes Celine Dion, Drake,
The Weekend, Justin Bieber, Rush, and Nickelback. In fact, no
(01:18):
Canadian male or Canadian band has sold more copies of
an album than Atlanis. She is that awesome.
Jagged Little Pill kind of sort of reinvented the female
singer-songwriter and gave women the confidence and strength to express
themselves authentically. Rolling Stone called it a landmark moment for
(01:40):
the music industry and the soundtrack of a.
Generation. And it didn't take long for that new generation
of self-assured female singer-songwriters to emerge in the wake of
Alanis's success. One of my favorite online posts says the
best genre of music is a woman that's angry about something,
and that is so true.
But all of that success did not come to Atlantis
(02:02):
without sacrifices. Alanis Nadine Morrissette was born in Ottawa, Ontario
in 1974. At the age of 3, her family, which
included older brother Chad and her twin brother Wade, they
moved to Germany for a few years where her parents
taught at a Canadian Forces base.
After seeing Greece with her father at the age of 3,
(02:23):
Alanis dreamt of becoming the next Olivia Newton-Jo to the
point where she was re-enacting the whole movie for her grandmother.
Years later, on a trip to Los Angeles, a 9-year-old
Alanis would actually seek out Olivia Newton-Jo's house in Malibu,
and she
rang the doorbell. Here she is recalling that experience with
(02:43):
the new music's Jan and
Speaker 2 (02:44):
White. I was 9 years old and I went down
there and um she had a security gate and uh
a machine that was taping all the people that went by,
I guess, and I just went up and went, Hi,
I'm Alanis and I'm gonna meet you one day and
I want to be famous just like you.
And I have pictures and stuff, and I remember that moment.
(03:05):
It's hilarious. In fact, chances are you could be more
famous than I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
In 1980, the Morisette family moved back to Ottawa when
Atlantis was 6. After seeing local folk singers Jacqueline and
Lindsay Morgan perform, she knew she wanted to.
Be a singer and a songwriter. But before she could
pursue that career path, Alanis caught the acting bug. So
at the age of 10, she was cast on a
local TV program called You Can't Do That on television.
(03:33):
Do you remember that? It was a children's sketch comedy
show that had become so popular, it was actually picked
up by Nickelodeon and quickly became the.
network's biggest show. In case you haven't seen it, you
can't do that on television. It had this running gag
that kids loved where if a character said the words
I don't know, a bucket of slime would fall from
(03:54):
the ceiling all over them. Here is what Alanis getting
slimed sounds like.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Alanis,
you must have a good idea. I don't know.
000, Alistair, you did that on purpose. Now I will
hate you. No, Alanis, no, really, it didn't have anything
to do with me. I just forgot to tell you
that on this show you can't say I don't know,
(04:19):
or you'll get lying.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I
Could you imagine if every workplace was like that? Even
though Allanis only appeared in 7 episodes of You Can't
Do That on television, she would learn valuable experience about
how to entertain an audience. Here she is in a
documentary called Atlanis Too Hot discussing how you can't do
that on television, prepared her for a life performing in
(04:46):
front of others.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
The show helped me a lot just, you know, learning
how to.
Be myself in front of a camera and not freeze
up and uh it was good because acting especially when
you do videos nowadays too, you have to incorporate a
lot of your acting skills into them and uh.
It was fun.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
The show also paid her enough money that she could
fund some studio time to record music. By the time
she got her break on TV, she had already begun
writing songs. Her mom sent a tape of Alanna singing
to Jacqueline and Lindsay Morgan, who agreed to help her
record a demo with Rich Dodson of classic rockers The Stampeders.
She would release one of those songs, Fate Stay With Me,
(05:28):
as a seven inch vinyl single with another song called
Find the Right Man as the B-side.
Ah, yes, the struggles of finding the right man.
It's something every 13 year old can relate to. Uh,
Needless to say, the people around Atlantis at the time
were pushing the young and impressionable teenager to act like
she was older than the age on her birth certificate,
(05:51):
but she was turning heads with her voice. She performed
Fate's Stay with me at the CJOH youth talent search
in 1987 when she was just 13, and guess what?
She took home the grand prize. Here is a quick
snippet of that performance.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
They
Ladies and gentlemen, the 1987 CJOH Youth Talent Search '87
Gras Prize winner is Alanis Morissette.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Fate Stay With Me also received some airplay on Ottawa
radio stations where it was heard by Stefan Clon, a
former professional skater for the Ice Capades. Impressed by her voice,
he offered to become her manager and helped her book gigs,
singing at events.
Like sporting events and fashion shows. Around the same time,
Alanis's mom sent her demo to Leslie Howe, an Ottawa-based
(06:48):
musician and one half of the pop rock duo 1
to 1, who had a radio hit called Hold Me
Now to their name.
After hearing and meeting the young singer, Leslie believed he
had discovered the next big teen pop star and signed
Atlanis to a deal with his production, Ghetto Veil for
a 5 album deal. All Atlanis needed now was a
(07:10):
record label to release those albums.
One thing Atlanis really had going for her was that
teen pop had reached a real high in the late
80s thanks to acts like New Kids on the Block,
Tiffany and Debbie Gibson. Atlanis was striking while the iron
was hot. In fact, with her bubblegum pop sound, she
was often hailed as the Canadian Tiffany or Debbie. Leslie.
(07:34):
tapped into that appeal and produced a song he co-wrote
with Atlanis called Walk Away, which they would shop to labels.
In order to make it appear more professional, Leslie and
Stephan flew Allanis to Paris, France to shoot a music video.
She was only 14 at the time, singing about how
she would leave her lover if he didn't want her anymore.
(07:55):
But the video worked. Leslie showed it to John Alexander,
the head of A&R at MCA Publishing Canada, and just
like that, Alanis had a record deal. Alanis quickly learned, however,
that she was not in control of her music career.
She would tell the Ottawa Citizen in 1991, people are
already saying to me, so you're the next Tiffany. Well,
(08:16):
I'm not. When it came time to think about an image,
all I said is that I didn't want to be.
But that wasn't the case. Alanis was being packaged like
a cookie cutter pop princess by her management and her label.
Soon she found her label was even making demands for
her to join a Weight Watchers program to lose weight
and control her diet. According to an article published by Hazlit,
(08:39):
male executives at MCA became obsessed with Atlanis's weight, even
instructing her to lose 20 pounds. Years later, she would
tell us weekly.
I recall being called to a meeting at the recording
studio and the person said, I know I called you
to redo vocals, but I actually wanted to talk to
you about your weight. You can't be successful if you're fat.
Alanis would later admit that between the ages of 14
(09:02):
and 18, she had become both anorexic and bulimic from
the pressure put on her by MCA. It's just horrible.
Because of this, Alanis would become an advocate for mental
health when she was older.
Where she would discuss the struggles she faced from her
eating disorder. In the HBO documentary Jagged, Alanis would accuse
(09:22):
her then label of kickstarting a massive eating disorder journey,
requiring her to be an active recovery for her whole life.
The studio environment pushed her even further into a lifestyle
that no one, especially a young teenager, should have endured.
She confessed that most days after school she would head straight.
To the studio, often staying as late as 4 in
(09:43):
the morning, writing and recording with Leslie Howe. There, the
then 16-year-old singer would hang out with adults and experiment
with alcohol, marijuana, and began a sexual relationship with a
much older man when she was just 15. She would
briefly discuss working in that environment with Janalyn White.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
The fact that I'm working with a lot of people
that are older sort of rubs off on me too.
Like everyone that I'm surrounded by, you know, there was
a point where I was surrounded by adults for about
2 weeks and I didn't see anybody my age for
that length of time, so it starts, you know, starts
rubbing off on you, I think a little.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
But in Jagged, Alanis admitted it took me years in therapy.
To even admit there had been any kind of victimization
on my part, I would always say I was consenting,
and then I'd be reminded like, hey, you're 15, you're
not consenting at 15. Now I'm like, oh yeah, they're
all pedophiles. It's all statutory rape.
While she has never disclosed who the relationship was with,
(10:40):
there were a few people who knew what was going on,
and those who knew either didn't speak up or didn't
see anything wrong with it. Years later, Atlantis would open
up about her experience surviving a male dominated industry that
took advantage of young women in the 2002 song Hands Clean.
She would tell the Independent that she was surrounded by
people that would constantly exploit her, admitting, the thing is,
(11:04):
a lot of people didn't even realize they were doing it.
I could barely fault anyone because so many people who
were exploitative, who were using me, they didn't even know
they were doing it, but it's all there. All the
lyrics and all the stories are all there. I consider
myself to be the queen of revenge fantasy, not the
queen of actual revenge acting out. Like Destiny's Child, Aaliyah,
(11:27):
Justin Timberlake, and Britney Spears before her, Alaniss performed on
Star Search, a reality competition TV show hosted by Ed McMahon.
Her appearance did very.
little to raise her profile, so her label primarily focused
on breaking her in Canada. It helped that MCA had
marketed her as the Debbie Gibson of Canada, a nickname
(11:47):
that suited her debut album accordingly. Released on April 17, 1991, Atlanis,
as it was titled, catapulted a 16-year old Atlanis to
the top of the charts in Canada thanks to its
first single, Too Hot, which was a top 20 hit.
That was kind of it for the album though.
Despite a feature in the film Problem Child 2 and
(12:09):
a pre-fame Matt LeBlanc starring as her love interest in
the video, follow-up single Walk Away failed to match the
same success as Too Hot. And if I may, just
for a minute because I know you were thinking about
it too, I would like to point out that Matt
LeBlanc is 7 years older than Alanis, who at the
time was 16, maybe 17 years old. It is wild
(12:30):
that happened and that he agreed to it, but that's
showbiz for you, I guess.
Alanis achieved a lot with Too Hot, which was nominated
for both Single of the Year and Dance Recording of
the Year at the Juno Awards. She wouldn't win in
those categories, but she did take home her first Juno
for Most Promising Female vocalist of the Year. On top
(12:51):
of that, Atlanis would sell 100,000 copies of her debut album,
which in the age of CDs and cassettes, was considered.
Not too shabby for a brand new artist, and it
earned her other opportunities like opening up for the hit-making
rap star Vanilla Ice, although apparently she was told not
to look him in the eye. Here she is on
Watch What Happens Live telling Andy Cohen about it. Serena
Speaker 2 (13:14):
asked, texted Alanis, what was your favorite part of opening
for Vanilla Ice's tour back in the day?
In the 90s, and is it true you weren't allowed
to look him in the eye? Yeah, I mean, a
lot of artists are overwhelmed by incredible large amount of
stimuli and um I think me looking at him would
have overstimulated him. So I that is the best answer ever.
(13:35):
I just, just my eyes. That is really good. Let's
go
to.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
That
Speaker 2 (13:39):
is cold as ice. I understand that you're switching that now.
You're going to move off in a slightly different direction.
I'd like to. Uh, it's not going to say that
the next album is going to be incredibly different, but I,
I like to think that this career Mike could last
a really long time, so it's going to go through
some changes along the way, but I'd like to go
(14:00):
in a different direction slowly but surely.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
That was Alanis Morissette talking to the press at the
1992 Juno's looking to capitalize on her win. Allanis's team
wasted no time getting her back into the studio to
record a second album, perhaps something even a little different.
Around this time, she also began dating actor Dave Coollier,
best known for his role as Joey, the lovable stand-up
(14:23):
comic on the hit sitcom Full House. Atlantis was still
only a teenager, I mean 19, but still, he was
15 years older than her. Cut it out. Here she
is admitting to the relationship on the Howard Stern Show.
He
Speaker 2 (14:36):
dated him. Aha. So
when did Dave Cooler, when did you start dating him?
I was 1919. I was singing at an all-star hockey game.
I was doing the national anthem, and he was
playing.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
They would date for two years during which Atlantis was
recording and promoting her second album. Now Is the Time
came out on October 20, 1992, and while it would
go on to sell 50,000 copies, the album was considered
a flop. The music was more of the same dance
pop as her debut, and it failed to produce a hit.
After expressing that she wanted to pursue a new direction
(15:10):
with her music, Atlantis was dropped by MCA. The label
told her no one wanted to hear her evolve as
an artist. Can you imagine now being the person that
said that to her? You were so wrong. That's so
embarrassing for you.
Uh, but it wouldn't take long for her to meet
her future manager, Scott Welch, who convinced her to move
out of her parents' home after graduating from high school
(15:32):
and head to Toronto, but it wouldn't take long for
her to realize that it was actually Los Angeles that
was the place she needed to be.
In an interview with Rolling Stone, Alanna said leaving MCA
was what she needed at the time. It was kind
of a blessing that it was over because I wanted
to start out with a clean slate, not only personally
but career wise too. It left me sort of naked.
(15:53):
Leaving Toronto to go to LA gave me a severe
dose of.
disillusionment that was really necessary. I was finally in a
position where things weren't working out and it was good
for me. It made me realize that certain people I
blindly trusted let me down. My intuition was saying, don't
trust these people, don't work with these people, and I
went against it.
(16:14):
Alanis found herself without a record deal in a different city.
At first she was sleeping on friends' couches and experienced
a sort of baptism by fire when she arrived. She
would tell Rolling Stone, I was held up at gunpoint
in Hollywood when I first moved there. Still, despite all
the negatives, it was like in hand in my pocket.
I was broke, but I was happy.
(16:36):
But it was in LA that she found a kindred
spirit in fellow songwriter Glenn Ballard, who was originally suggested
as a collaborator when she first signed with MCA. Here
is Atlantis telling much music about partnering up with him.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Um, I had written with over 100 people over the
last 3 years and I became really disheartened with the
whole collaborative process and then MCA Publishing, which is the
company I'm on and the one that he's on, set
us up and just, you know, threw us out there
and we, we got together. I knew immediately that there
was a real synergy and magic between us and sure enough.
Right, you
tapped into it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Glenn encouraged her to find herself by forgetting the past
and following a new, more authentic direction. It also helped
that he had an impressive track record, having worked with
Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones, Paula Abdul, and Wilson Phillips. Atlanis
would tell CNN, I thought, wow, here's someone I can
delve into some subject matters that may offend or trigger
(17:29):
or bother some other collaborators. Glenn was embracing it and
he was saying, keep on, let's do it.
Glenn helped Alanis unlock the frustration and anger she was
harboring from previous relationships, be it with her record label, management,
or love interests. Although she came to LA with close
to 50 songs, the two of them set a challenge
(17:52):
to try and write one song a day, which would
anywhere from 12 to 16 hours, they would then record
the songs at Glenn's home studio. The pair were so
focused that the only real distraction came from the police
chasing OJ Simpson in a white Ford Bronco around their neighborhood.
But I mean, that would have distracted anyone.
(18:14):
Since Glen could play almost any instrument, they didn't feel
like they needed to bring anyone else in at first.
The majority of the album was put together in just
13 days with the help of engineer Christopher Vogel. According
to Glenn, all of Alanis's vocals were done in only
1 or 2 takes. Man, she is impressive. While they
were finishing the album, Alanis and Glenn shopped her music
(18:36):
around to various labels.
Every one of them passed on it, except for Maverick Records,
or as people knew it, Madonna's record label. Madonna launched
Maverick in 1992 and quickly found success with the post-grunge
band Candlebox. Like its name suggested, her label was just
the sort of venture that could take a chance on
(18:57):
an artist like Atlanis. Madonna would admit that it was
Atlanis's honesty.
and hopefulness that sold her on the music, but the
key player at the label was a young A&R guy
named Guy Osieri, who was just a few years older
than Alanis. Guy was completely unfamiliar with Atlanis's past and
connected with the angst-driven rock. Fun fact about Guy Ossieri,
(19:21):
he later became Madonna's manager and is now the manager
of U2. What a life.
When they went into Maverick's office to play some music,
Alanna's wore the only clothes she had on her, a
t-shirt and some sweatpants. It didn't matter though. She and
Glenn played the label, you ought to know, but surprisingly enough,
it was the ballad perfect that impressed him most in
(19:43):
the jagged document.
I would admit within 30 seconds, everything changed. I was
already floored. I had not heard anything like it. The
simplicity of the way she was able to narrate, yet
how complex it was at the same time, I said
I'm in. I didn't have to hear anymore. I love it.
I'm all in.
As they finished the album, Madonna, who Alanis would describe
(20:05):
as very supportive and very nurturing, would come in and
give her opinion. One day she also gave Alanis an
expensive chartreuse Prada blouse to try and class up her wardrobe.
Maverick had some suggestions for the music, but the only
feedback that seemed to matter was that you ought to know,
needed a bit of a boost. So Guy called up
his friends Flea and Dave Navarro, then of Red Hot
(20:28):
Chili Peppers, to bolster the bass and guitar on the.
So to make it more of a rocker. After the
album was finished, the next step was to try and
convince the world that she was no longer some pop princess.
She was a future Grammy winner in the making. The
Speaker 2 (20:43):
last, the last thing Canadians saw of me was when
I was 17 years old and, and then, um, 4
years later they hear this and for them that must
have felt like 5 minutes, and I understand um how
different it can seem, but no one was walking alongside
me for those 4 years and seeing what I saw
and learning what I learned, so.
Um, those that have the incentive and the curiosity to
find out what happened in the last 5 years for me, they'll,
(21:05):
you know, they'll have those questions answered through the music
and
Speaker 1 (21:08):
through me. Come 1995 in Canada, the name Allanis was
still synonymous with the big haired teenage girl that had
a top 40 hit just a few years earlier. Her
past life was still too fresh to convince music lovers
and radio programmers in her home.
Country that she was now some grungy singer-songwriter. But as
soon as they heard the first single, you ought to know,
(21:31):
preconceived notions had changed. Once Krock FM in Los Angeles
began playing the song, other stations followed suit. MTV and
much music picked up the video and put it in
rotation immediately. The song's provocative lyrics played out like a
Revenge fantasy from a scorned lover, uninhibited and unapologetic, and
(21:52):
unlike anything else on the radio at the time. One
line in particular found Atlaniss asking, would he go down
on you in a theater? Here she is talking to
much music about how important it was to show that
side of her. You have
Speaker 2 (22:06):
laid yourself
Speaker 1 (22:06):
barehead
Speaker 2 (22:07):
lyrically too, you know, she go down on you in
a theater.
Yeah, I mean, for about a week or so I
expressed my fear with I guess how forthright everything was
to Glenn, my collaborator, and he and I talked about
it and I really basically I talked myself out of
being afraid of being that honest because I guess the
(22:27):
alternative was to censor things and to tell half truths,
and I vowed to myself that I'd never do that again.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Of course, that one lyric being so shocking helped sparked
a decades-long obsession with the identity of the man she
was singing to in You Oughta Know. When word got
around that Atlanis had dated Dave Coollier, immediately people put
2 and 2 together and assumed it was about Joey
from Full House. Years later, Coollier would recount to Sirius
(22:55):
XM his first reaction to hearing You ought to Know
on the radio.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Here's the story.
I'm driving in Detroit.
And I've got my radio on and I hear the
hook for You ought to know, come on the radio
and I'm like, wow, this is a really cool hook.
And then I start hearing the voice. I'm like, wow,
this girl can sing and I had no idea, you know,
that that this was the record and and then and
(23:21):
then I was like, uh listening to the lyrics going,
00 no.
Oh, I can't be this guy. And I went to
the record store, bought the CD and I went and
I parked on the street and I listened to the
whole record and there was a lot of familiar stuff
in there that her and I had talked about like
(23:42):
your your shake is like a fish, you know, I'd go, hey,
dead fish me, you know, and we'd do this dead
fish handshake. And and so I started listening to it
and I thought, oh, I think I may have really
hurt this woman.
And that was my first thought. And so years later
we reconnected and uh she couldn't have been sweeter. And
I said, what do you want me to say when
(24:03):
people ask me about this relationship? And she said, you
can say whatever you
want.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Of course, to this day, Alanis has never revealed who
the song was actually about, and when she appeared on
Watch What Happens Live years later, she said she would
never reveal the truth.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Um,
and Alanis and Julia, thank you so much for making
my teenage years so memorable. Um.
Polanis, how sick are you of people asking if you
ought to know is about Uncle Jelly from Full House
and will you will you ever reveal it as part two?
No revealing, but I am intrigued at the thought that
or at the fact that more than one person has
(24:41):
taken credit for it, and I'm thinking.
I don't know if you want to take credit for
being the person I wrote you on in right actually
he was on this show and I feel like he
kind of took credit for it on this show. Like
there's like about 6 people that have taken credit for
it and um I just think, you know, if you're
gonna take credit for a song where I'm singing about
someone being a douche or an asshole.
(25:03):
You might not want to, yeah, you might not want
to say, hey, that's me. Yeah, right, right, right,
right.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
When it was released on June 13th, 1995, Atlantis's third album,
Jagged Little Pill, obliterated any expectations that the label had
for it. You ought to Know was rapidly climbing up
the charts all over the world, but especially making an
impact in America. When it reached number one on the
Billboard Modern Rock Tracks chart, she.
She became the first woman to ever achieve that, and
(25:31):
it would be the first of many achievements for her.
In interviews, Alanis referred to Jagged Little Pill as her
debut album in a bid to forget her past and
start her career with a clean slate. It really is
her debut album though, if you think about it, because
this is the one that wasn't influenced by a bunch
of old pervs telling her what to be and that
she needs to lose weight. Anyway, when she was asked.
(25:53):
By Rolling Stone about the first two albums, she said,
I'm not scared people might hear those records. There's nothing
I regret. Maybe people will just understand my lyrics now
a little more if they hear those records. It validates
this record. There was an element of me not being
who I really was at the time. It was because
I wasn't prepared to open up that way. The focus
for me then was entertaining people as opposed to sharing
(26:16):
any revelations I had at the time. I had them,
but I wasn't prepared to share.
But to be honest, most people didn't care that she
used to be Canada's Debbie Gibson. Alanis Moorset, as she's
now known, was a take no shit alternative rock star
who was purging all of these raw feelings and emotions
that so many girls and women could relate to. She
(26:38):
was quickly becoming the voice of her generation at a
time in which she believed there was quote an abject
hatred of women.
Yeah, it was just at that time. Uh, naturally, with
all of this praise and success, the press would paint
Alanis as an angry white female. That's what Rolling Stone
called her when they put her on the front cover
in November 1995. Here is Allanis reflecting to iHeartRadio on
(27:02):
what it was like to be a woman in 1995.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
I think for me it was more about the 1990s
was very insulated and isolating in terms of being a
woman and a very, very patriarchal environment. So if I
could have done.
Anything differently, I would have made pa patriarchy go away
so I could have had more people around me who
were supportive. I'm like that's happening
now, so we're good.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
One of the most fascinating things about Jagged Little Pill
is how it just kept getting bigger and bigger and
selling more and more copies. Most albums generate 1 or
2 hits, but each single from Jagged Little Pill was
a banger. After you ought to Know Came You Learn,
then Hand in my pocket, and
Then on February 27, 1996, 8.5 months after the album
(27:48):
was released, the fourth single dropped. It was called Ironic,
and it was far different from the other songs on
the album. The song was not self-confessional or autobiographical the
way the rest of the songs were. Instead, Alanis and
Glenn built a tapestry of relatable, unlucky situations in which
irony reared its ugly head. For example, Rain on your.
(28:12):
Wedding day or 10,000 spoons when all you need is
a knife. In 2015, Glenn would explain the song's origin
in a Spotify landmark session, saying, our process began with
a lunch at Emilio Strattoria over chopped salads and iced tea.
I recalled her saying something like, Wouldn't it be ironic
for an old man to win the lottery and die
(28:32):
the next day? We were fresh with this thought when
we walked into the studio 10 minutes later. This was
the beginning of the true magic between us.
Ironic was one of the first songs the duo wrote
initially just as a demo to get things started. Alanis
and Glenn were just looking to have some fun, bouncing
words off each other and even questioning what type of
(28:52):
genre they were working in. But the two of them
weren't actually running their ideas through an irony authenticator. So
while the song became a hit, critics had just a
field day pointing out which lines weren't ironic by definition
and misusing the word.
It didn't really matter in the end because Ironic reached
more listeners spanning more radio formats than you ought to know,
(29:17):
thanks to its lighter, foolkier pop sound and singing a
song about things that are ironic that aren't actually ironic.
Isn't that ironic? Don't you think?
Ironic was one of 4 singles from Jagged Little Pill
to top the charts in Canada, but it was also
the highest charting single for Atlantis in the US, reaching
number 4 on the Billboard Hot 100. A lot of
(29:37):
its success was the result of a charming video directed
by Stefan Sinai in which we saw 4 different Atlantis
singing Ironic as they travel in a 1978 Lincoln Continental
Mark Vee along a snowy road.
Each Atlanis clone represented a free spirit dressed in a
different thrift shop purchased outfit to distinguish them from one another.
(29:58):
Alanis would tell Vogue the clothes were chosen to suit
the cold weather. I'm always moved by incredible colors, rich, muted,
and what they can tell us about where we are
at any given moment. She elaborated that the driver is
the responsible one. The spunky one in yellow with braids
is the quark stir. The one in the passenger seat
who hangs out the window is the romantic.
(30:19):
And the one in the backseat wearing green and banging
her head is the troublemaker. The ironic music video would
win three of the six categories it was nominated for
at the 1996 MTV Video Music Awards Best Female Video,
Best New Artist in a Video, and Best Editing. The
video for Ironic would be subjected to numerous parodies, including
(30:41):
Weird Al Yankovic and Toronto indie band Rusty, who recreated
it for their song and.
Cell. Ironic truly is iconic. Not bad for a song
Atlanis didn't even want on the album. Did I mention that?
Because it's true. When she appeared on Rolling Stones's Music
Now podcast, Atlanis admitted, I didn't even want it on
the album, and I remember a lot of people going, Please, please, please.
(31:05):
So I said, OK, people wound up really liking the melody,
and I wasn't that precious about it. Instead, it was
Glenn who insisted on adding it to Jagged Little Pill.
said she did come around to the song over time though,
admitting to Spotify, I do love it though, you know,
when I perform it, there's such a resonant precious moment
with the audience when we start playing that song. Just
(31:27):
how big was ironic for Alanis Morissette? Well, on top
of helping her sell more than 33 million copies of
Jagged Little Pill and it being part of a Broadway musical,
the song may have actually changed the English language. Here
she is on the Howard.
explaining how all of the confusion over her song actually
(31:47):
led to redefining the word ironic.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Ironic is funny because you got, you still get shit
to this day because everyone goes, hey, Alan, that's not
real irony in this song, but you were like, hey,
I'm 19. I don't, you know, I'm just trying to
come up with a song, right? Is that it? Glenn
and I were trying to make each other laugh and
I also think at the time, see, there's a part
of me that's quite aware that I'm very stupid, very,
(32:11):
very dumb.
Definition of ironic. Most people don't. And do, and then
there's another part of me that's really smart. I did
not care. I honestly thought maybe 100 people would hear
this song. Malapropisms what are you gonna do? But interestingly enough,
the dictionary, actually, this kills me about pop culture. The
dictionary changed the definition based on, I can't say singularly
on me, but I think based on people being so
confused about the definition of irony, and I am usually
(32:34):
a stickler for grammar, so it was a step out
for me.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Not too many songwriters can flex like that.
Ironic has been covered by almost too many people to name,
but the most memorable of all was by Alanis herself
when she appeared on The Late Late Show in 2015
and sang an updated version of Ironic with James Corden.
Here are some of the examples of those new lyrics.
So we had
(32:57):
An old friend sends you a Facebook request and you
only find out they're racist after you accept. That's a classic. Uh,
there's a traffic jam when you try to use Waze,
and how about it's like Netflix but you own DVDs.
It's a free run.
But your Uber's down the street. So pretty funny. I
(33:19):
like that she can have some fun with it. James
Corden must be a huge fan too, because he also
sang Ionic when he invited Justin Bieber to join him
for Carpool Karaoke.
Ironic is hands down Atlanis's biggest song of her career
with close to 600 million streams on Spotify and another
300 million views on the iconic video. And speaking of
(33:40):
that video in 2024, Atlanis teamed up with US Cellular
to recreate the music video in an attempt to help
people build healthier relationships with technology. Check it out.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Our phones were made to help us connect, and somehow
they've made us less connected.
Which is ironic, don't you think?
Phone for dinner, but the menu's on the phone.
Ironic.
We can't watch something without also watching something else.
(34:13):
Post about cuteness and miss the even cuterness.
Ironic.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And Atlanis wasn't the only one reenacting the ironic music video.
Olivia Rodrigo, who inducted Alanis Moorsad into the Canadian Songwriters
Hall of Fame in 2022, paid homage to her hero
by adding a car sequence to the video from her
hit song Get Him Back at the induction ceremony, Olivia.
I had this to say about Alanis. My life was
(34:40):
completely changed after hearing Jagged Little Pill. Allanis's songwriting was
unlike anything I'd ever heard before, and I haven't heard
anything quite like it since. And that voice, fierce and
tender and sometimes funny and playful, I became hooked for life. Same, Olivia, same.
Well, that's it for another episode of Encore. I hope
(35:00):
it wasn't like rain on your wedding day. I'm Ruby Carr.
New episodes of Encore every Thursday.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Encore is an iHeart Radio Canada podcast. Download the free
iHeart Radio app and subscribe. Thank you. Thank you so
much for coming.
This is not like rain on your wedding day or
a free ride when you've already paid. I'm Ruby Carr
and this is the incredible story of Alanis Morisette's
Speaker 2 (00:10):
classic
Speaker 1 (00:10):
ironic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You know the
songs just making people feel something.
Pleasure to work on this song with her, but do
you know the history? It's a struggle making any kind
of record. I don't always have the direction or concept.
This is Encore, an in-depth look at the stories behind
the music. Here's Iart Radio's Ruby Carr.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
There is no mistaking Alanis Morisette for anyone else. She
is the one and only Alanis, and I mean that. Like,
can you even think of anyone else out there named Alanis? Uh,
but not only that, Miss Morrissette also has one of
the most recognizable singing voices of her generation, one that
helped countless heartbroken individuals sing out their feelings, one that
(00:56):
helped her sell more than 33 million copies.
Of her album Jagged Little Pill. Only Shania Twain's Come
On Over has sold more copies than Jagged Little Pill,
making it the second best selling album by any Canadian ever.
And just for the record, that list includes Celine Dion, Drake,
The Weekend, Justin Bieber, Rush, and Nickelback. In fact, no
(01:18):
Canadian male or Canadian band has sold more copies of
an album than Atlanis. She is that awesome.
Jagged Little Pill kind of sort of reinvented the female
singer-songwriter and gave women the confidence and strength to express
themselves authentically. Rolling Stone called it a landmark moment for
(01:40):
the music industry and the soundtrack of a.
Generation. And it didn't take long for that new generation
of self-assured female singer-songwriters to emerge in the wake of
Alanis's success. One of my favorite online posts says the
best genre of music is a woman that's angry about something,
and that is so true.
But all of that success did not come to Atlantis
(02:02):
without sacrifices. Alanis Nadine Morrissette was born in Ottawa, Ontario
in 1974. At the age of 3, her family, which
included older brother Chad and her twin brother Wade, they
moved to Germany for a few years where her parents
taught at a Canadian Forces base.
After seeing Greece with her father at the age of 3,
(02:23):
Alanis dreamt of becoming the next Olivia Newton-Jo to the
point where she was re-enacting the whole movie for her grandmother.
Years later, on a trip to Los Angeles, a 9-year-old
Alanis would actually seek out Olivia Newton-Jo's house in Malibu,
and she
rang the doorbell. Here she is recalling that experience with
(02:43):
the new music's Jan and
Speaker 2 (02:44):
White. I was 9 years old and I went down
there and um she had a security gate and uh
a machine that was taping all the people that went by,
I guess, and I just went up and went, Hi,
I'm Alanis and I'm gonna meet you one day and
I want to be famous just like you.
And I have pictures and stuff, and I remember that moment.
(03:05):
It's hilarious. In fact, chances are you could be more
famous than I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
In 1980, the Morisette family moved back to Ottawa when
Atlantis was 6. After seeing local folk singers Jacqueline and
Lindsay Morgan perform, she knew she wanted to.
Be a singer and a songwriter. But before she could
pursue that career path, Alanis caught the acting bug. So
at the age of 10, she was cast on a
local TV program called You Can't Do That on television.
(03:33):
Do you remember that? It was a children's sketch comedy
show that had become so popular, it was actually picked
up by Nickelodeon and quickly became the.
network's biggest show. In case you haven't seen it, you
can't do that on television. It had this running gag
that kids loved where if a character said the words
I don't know, a bucket of slime would fall from
(03:54):
the ceiling all over them. Here is what Alanis getting
slimed sounds like.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Alanis,
you must have a good idea. I don't know.
000, Alistair, you did that on purpose. Now I will
hate you. No, Alanis, no, really, it didn't have anything
to do with me. I just forgot to tell you
that on this show you can't say I don't know,
(04:19):
or you'll get lying.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I
Could you imagine if every workplace was like that? Even
though Allanis only appeared in 7 episodes of You Can't
Do That on television, she would learn valuable experience about
how to entertain an audience. Here she is in a
documentary called Atlanis Too Hot discussing how you can't do
that on television, prepared her for a life performing in
(04:46):
front of others.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
The show helped me a lot just, you know, learning
how to.
Be myself in front of a camera and not freeze
up and uh it was good because acting especially when
you do videos nowadays too, you have to incorporate a
lot of your acting skills into them and uh.
It was fun.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
The show also paid her enough money that she could
fund some studio time to record music. By the time
she got her break on TV, she had already begun
writing songs. Her mom sent a tape of Alanna singing
to Jacqueline and Lindsay Morgan, who agreed to help her
record a demo with Rich Dodson of classic rockers The Stampeders.
She would release one of those songs, Fate Stay With Me,
(05:28):
as a seven inch vinyl single with another song called
Find the Right Man as the B-side.
Ah, yes, the struggles of finding the right man.
It's something every 13 year old can relate to. Uh,
Needless to say, the people around Atlantis at the time
were pushing the young and impressionable teenager to act like
she was older than the age on her birth certificate,
(05:51):
but she was turning heads with her voice. She performed
Fate's Stay with me at the CJOH youth talent search
in 1987 when she was just 13, and guess what?
She took home the grand prize. Here is a quick
snippet of that performance.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
They
Ladies and gentlemen, the 1987 CJOH Youth Talent Search '87
Gras Prize winner is Alanis Morissette.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Fate Stay With Me also received some airplay on Ottawa
radio stations where it was heard by Stefan Clon, a
former professional skater for the Ice Capades. Impressed by her voice,
he offered to become her manager and helped her book gigs,
singing at events.
Like sporting events and fashion shows. Around the same time,
Alanis's mom sent her demo to Leslie Howe, an Ottawa-based
(06:48):
musician and one half of the pop rock duo 1
to 1, who had a radio hit called Hold Me
Now to their name.
After hearing and meeting the young singer, Leslie believed he
had discovered the next big teen pop star and signed
Atlanis to a deal with his production, Ghetto Veil for
a 5 album deal. All Atlanis needed now was a
(07:10):
record label to release those albums.
One thing Atlanis really had going for her was that
teen pop had reached a real high in the late
80s thanks to acts like New Kids on the Block,
Tiffany and Debbie Gibson. Atlanis was striking while the iron
was hot. In fact, with her bubblegum pop sound, she
was often hailed as the Canadian Tiffany or Debbie. Leslie.
(07:34):
tapped into that appeal and produced a song he co-wrote
with Atlanis called Walk Away, which they would shop to labels.
In order to make it appear more professional, Leslie and
Stephan flew Allanis to Paris, France to shoot a music video.
She was only 14 at the time, singing about how
she would leave her lover if he didn't want her anymore.
(07:55):
But the video worked. Leslie showed it to John Alexander,
the head of A&R at MCA Publishing Canada, and just
like that, Alanis had a record deal. Alanis quickly learned, however,
that she was not in control of her music career.
She would tell the Ottawa Citizen in 1991, people are
already saying to me, so you're the next Tiffany. Well,
(08:16):
I'm not. When it came time to think about an image,
all I said is that I didn't want to be.
But that wasn't the case. Alanis was being packaged like
a cookie cutter pop princess by her management and her label.
Soon she found her label was even making demands for
her to join a Weight Watchers program to lose weight
and control her diet. According to an article published by Hazlit,
(08:39):
male executives at MCA became obsessed with Atlanis's weight, even
instructing her to lose 20 pounds. Years later, she would
tell us weekly.
I recall being called to a meeting at the recording
studio and the person said, I know I called you
to redo vocals, but I actually wanted to talk to
you about your weight. You can't be successful if you're fat.
Alanis would later admit that between the ages of 14
(09:02):
and 18, she had become both anorexic and bulimic from
the pressure put on her by MCA. It's just horrible.
Because of this, Alanis would become an advocate for mental
health when she was older.
Where she would discuss the struggles she faced from her
eating disorder. In the HBO documentary Jagged, Alanis would accuse
(09:22):
her then label of kickstarting a massive eating disorder journey,
requiring her to be an active recovery for her whole life.
The studio environment pushed her even further into a lifestyle
that no one, especially a young teenager, should have endured.
She confessed that most days after school she would head straight.
To the studio, often staying as late as 4 in
(09:43):
the morning, writing and recording with Leslie Howe. There, the
then 16-year-old singer would hang out with adults and experiment
with alcohol, marijuana, and began a sexual relationship with a
much older man when she was just 15. She would
briefly discuss working in that environment with Janalyn White.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
The fact that I'm working with a lot of people
that are older sort of rubs off on me too.
Like everyone that I'm surrounded by, you know, there was
a point where I was surrounded by adults for about
2 weeks and I didn't see anybody my age for
that length of time, so it starts, you know, starts
rubbing off on you, I think a little.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
But in Jagged, Alanis admitted it took me years in therapy.
To even admit there had been any kind of victimization
on my part, I would always say I was consenting,
and then I'd be reminded like, hey, you're 15, you're
not consenting at 15. Now I'm like, oh yeah, they're
all pedophiles. It's all statutory rape.
While she has never disclosed who the relationship was with,
(10:40):
there were a few people who knew what was going on,
and those who knew either didn't speak up or didn't
see anything wrong with it. Years later, Atlantis would open
up about her experience surviving a male dominated industry that
took advantage of young women in the 2002 song Hands Clean.
She would tell the Independent that she was surrounded by
people that would constantly exploit her, admitting, the thing is,
(11:04):
a lot of people didn't even realize they were doing it.
I could barely fault anyone because so many people who
were exploitative, who were using me, they didn't even know
they were doing it, but it's all there. All the
lyrics and all the stories are all there. I consider
myself to be the queen of revenge fantasy, not the
queen of actual revenge acting out. Like Destiny's Child, Aaliyah,
(11:27):
Justin Timberlake, and Britney Spears before her, Alaniss performed on
Star Search, a reality competition TV show hosted by Ed McMahon.
Her appearance did very.
little to raise her profile, so her label primarily focused
on breaking her in Canada. It helped that MCA had
marketed her as the Debbie Gibson of Canada, a nickname
(11:47):
that suited her debut album accordingly. Released on April 17, 1991, Atlanis,
as it was titled, catapulted a 16-year old Atlanis to
the top of the charts in Canada thanks to its
first single, Too Hot, which was a top 20 hit.
That was kind of it for the album though.
Despite a feature in the film Problem Child 2 and
(12:09):
a pre-fame Matt LeBlanc starring as her love interest in
the video, follow-up single Walk Away failed to match the
same success as Too Hot. And if I may, just
for a minute because I know you were thinking about
it too, I would like to point out that Matt
LeBlanc is 7 years older than Alanis, who at the
time was 16, maybe 17 years old. It is wild
(12:30):
that happened and that he agreed to it, but that's
showbiz for you, I guess.
Alanis achieved a lot with Too Hot, which was nominated
for both Single of the Year and Dance Recording of
the Year at the Juno Awards. She wouldn't win in
those categories, but she did take home her first Juno
for Most Promising Female vocalist of the Year. On top
(12:51):
of that, Atlanis would sell 100,000 copies of her debut album,
which in the age of CDs and cassettes, was considered.
Not too shabby for a brand new artist, and it
earned her other opportunities like opening up for the hit-making
rap star Vanilla Ice, although apparently she was told not
to look him in the eye. Here she is on
Watch What Happens Live telling Andy Cohen about it. Serena
Speaker 2 (13:14):
asked, texted Alanis, what was your favorite part of opening
for Vanilla Ice's tour back in the day?
In the 90s, and is it true you weren't allowed
to look him in the eye? Yeah, I mean, a
lot of artists are overwhelmed by incredible large amount of
stimuli and um I think me looking at him would
have overstimulated him. So I that is the best answer ever.
(13:35):
I just, just my eyes. That is really good. Let's
go
to.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
That
Speaker 2 (13:39):
is cold as ice. I understand that you're switching that now.
You're going to move off in a slightly different direction.
I'd like to. Uh, it's not going to say that
the next album is going to be incredibly different, but I,
I like to think that this career Mike could last
a really long time, so it's going to go through
some changes along the way, but I'd like to go
(14:00):
in a different direction slowly but surely.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
That was Alanis Morissette talking to the press at the
1992 Juno's looking to capitalize on her win. Allanis's team
wasted no time getting her back into the studio to
record a second album, perhaps something even a little different.
Around this time, she also began dating actor Dave Coollier,
best known for his role as Joey, the lovable stand-up
(14:23):
comic on the hit sitcom Full House. Atlantis was still
only a teenager, I mean 19, but still, he was
15 years older than her. Cut it out. Here she
is admitting to the relationship on the Howard Stern Show.
He
Speaker 2 (14:36):
dated him. Aha. So
when did Dave Cooler, when did you start dating him?
I was 1919. I was singing at an all-star hockey game.
I was doing the national anthem, and he was
playing.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
They would date for two years during which Atlantis was
recording and promoting her second album. Now Is the Time
came out on October 20, 1992, and while it would
go on to sell 50,000 copies, the album was considered
a flop. The music was more of the same dance
pop as her debut, and it failed to produce a hit.
After expressing that she wanted to pursue a new direction
(15:10):
with her music, Atlantis was dropped by MCA. The label
told her no one wanted to hear her evolve as
an artist. Can you imagine now being the person that
said that to her? You were so wrong. That's so
embarrassing for you.
Uh, but it wouldn't take long for her to meet
her future manager, Scott Welch, who convinced her to move
out of her parents' home after graduating from high school
(15:32):
and head to Toronto, but it wouldn't take long for
her to realize that it was actually Los Angeles that
was the place she needed to be.
In an interview with Rolling Stone, Alanna said leaving MCA
was what she needed at the time. It was kind
of a blessing that it was over because I wanted
to start out with a clean slate, not only personally
but career wise too. It left me sort of naked.
(15:53):
Leaving Toronto to go to LA gave me a severe
dose of.
disillusionment that was really necessary. I was finally in a
position where things weren't working out and it was good
for me. It made me realize that certain people I
blindly trusted let me down. My intuition was saying, don't
trust these people, don't work with these people, and I
went against it.
(16:14):
Alanis found herself without a record deal in a different city.
At first she was sleeping on friends' couches and experienced
a sort of baptism by fire when she arrived. She
would tell Rolling Stone, I was held up at gunpoint
in Hollywood when I first moved there. Still, despite all
the negatives, it was like in hand in my pocket.
I was broke, but I was happy.
(16:36):
But it was in LA that she found a kindred
spirit in fellow songwriter Glenn Ballard, who was originally suggested
as a collaborator when she first signed with MCA. Here
is Atlantis telling much music about partnering up with him.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Um, I had written with over 100 people over the
last 3 years and I became really disheartened with the
whole collaborative process and then MCA Publishing, which is the
company I'm on and the one that he's on, set
us up and just, you know, threw us out there
and we, we got together. I knew immediately that there
was a real synergy and magic between us and sure enough.
Right, you
tapped into it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Glenn encouraged her to find herself by forgetting the past
and following a new, more authentic direction. It also helped
that he had an impressive track record, having worked with
Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones, Paula Abdul, and Wilson Phillips. Atlanis
would tell CNN, I thought, wow, here's someone I can
delve into some subject matters that may offend or trigger
(17:29):
or bother some other collaborators. Glenn was embracing it and
he was saying, keep on, let's do it.
Glenn helped Alanis unlock the frustration and anger she was
harboring from previous relationships, be it with her record label, management,
or love interests. Although she came to LA with close
to 50 songs, the two of them set a challenge
(17:52):
to try and write one song a day, which would
anywhere from 12 to 16 hours, they would then record
the songs at Glenn's home studio. The pair were so
focused that the only real distraction came from the police
chasing OJ Simpson in a white Ford Bronco around their neighborhood.
But I mean, that would have distracted anyone.
(18:14):
Since Glen could play almost any instrument, they didn't feel
like they needed to bring anyone else in at first.
The majority of the album was put together in just
13 days with the help of engineer Christopher Vogel. According
to Glenn, all of Alanis's vocals were done in only
1 or 2 takes. Man, she is impressive. While they
were finishing the album, Alanis and Glenn shopped her music
(18:36):
around to various labels.
Every one of them passed on it, except for Maverick Records,
or as people knew it, Madonna's record label. Madonna launched
Maverick in 1992 and quickly found success with the post-grunge
band Candlebox. Like its name suggested, her label was just
the sort of venture that could take a chance on
(18:57):
an artist like Atlanis. Madonna would admit that it was
Atlanis's honesty.
and hopefulness that sold her on the music, but the
key player at the label was a young A&R guy
named Guy Osieri, who was just a few years older
than Alanis. Guy was completely unfamiliar with Atlanis's past and
connected with the angst-driven rock. Fun fact about Guy Ossieri,
(19:21):
he later became Madonna's manager and is now the manager
of U2. What a life.
When they went into Maverick's office to play some music,
Alanna's wore the only clothes she had on her, a
t-shirt and some sweatpants. It didn't matter though. She and
Glenn played the label, you ought to know, but surprisingly enough,
it was the ballad perfect that impressed him most in
(19:43):
the jagged document.
I would admit within 30 seconds, everything changed. I was
already floored. I had not heard anything like it. The
simplicity of the way she was able to narrate, yet
how complex it was at the same time, I said
I'm in. I didn't have to hear anymore. I love it.
I'm all in.
As they finished the album, Madonna, who Alanis would describe
(20:05):
as very supportive and very nurturing, would come in and
give her opinion. One day she also gave Alanis an
expensive chartreuse Prada blouse to try and class up her wardrobe.
Maverick had some suggestions for the music, but the only
feedback that seemed to matter was that you ought to know,
needed a bit of a boost. So Guy called up
his friends Flea and Dave Navarro, then of Red Hot
(20:28):
Chili Peppers, to bolster the bass and guitar on the.
So to make it more of a rocker. After the
album was finished, the next step was to try and
convince the world that she was no longer some pop princess.
She was a future Grammy winner in the making. The
Speaker 2 (20:43):
last, the last thing Canadians saw of me was when
I was 17 years old and, and then, um, 4
years later they hear this and for them that must
have felt like 5 minutes, and I understand um how
different it can seem, but no one was walking alongside
me for those 4 years and seeing what I saw
and learning what I learned, so.
Um, those that have the incentive and the curiosity to
find out what happened in the last 5 years for me, they'll,
(21:05):
you know, they'll have those questions answered through the music
and
Speaker 1 (21:08):
through me. Come 1995 in Canada, the name Allanis was
still synonymous with the big haired teenage girl that had
a top 40 hit just a few years earlier. Her
past life was still too fresh to convince music lovers
and radio programmers in her home.
Country that she was now some grungy singer-songwriter. But as
soon as they heard the first single, you ought to know,
(21:31):
preconceived notions had changed. Once Krock FM in Los Angeles
began playing the song, other stations followed suit. MTV and
much music picked up the video and put it in
rotation immediately. The song's provocative lyrics played out like a
Revenge fantasy from a scorned lover, uninhibited and unapologetic, and
(21:52):
unlike anything else on the radio at the time. One
line in particular found Atlaniss asking, would he go down
on you in a theater? Here she is talking to
much music about how important it was to show that
side of her. You have
Speaker 2 (22:06):
laid yourself
Speaker 1 (22:06):
barehead
Speaker 2 (22:07):
lyrically too, you know, she go down on you in
a theater.
Yeah, I mean, for about a week or so I
expressed my fear with I guess how forthright everything was
to Glenn, my collaborator, and he and I talked about
it and I really basically I talked myself out of
being afraid of being that honest because I guess the
(22:27):
alternative was to censor things and to tell half truths,
and I vowed to myself that I'd never do that again.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Of course, that one lyric being so shocking helped sparked
a decades-long obsession with the identity of the man she
was singing to in You Oughta Know. When word got
around that Atlanis had dated Dave Coollier, immediately people put
2 and 2 together and assumed it was about Joey
from Full House. Years later, Coollier would recount to Sirius
(22:55):
XM his first reaction to hearing You ought to Know
on the radio.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Here's the story.
I'm driving in Detroit.
And I've got my radio on and I hear the
hook for You ought to know, come on the radio
and I'm like, wow, this is a really cool hook.
And then I start hearing the voice. I'm like, wow,
this girl can sing and I had no idea, you know,
that that this was the record and and then and
(23:21):
then I was like, uh listening to the lyrics going,
00 no.
Oh, I can't be this guy. And I went to
the record store, bought the CD and I went and
I parked on the street and I listened to the
whole record and there was a lot of familiar stuff
in there that her and I had talked about like
(23:42):
your your shake is like a fish, you know, I'd go, hey,
dead fish me, you know, and we'd do this dead
fish handshake. And and so I started listening to it
and I thought, oh, I think I may have really
hurt this woman.
And that was my first thought. And so years later
we reconnected and uh she couldn't have been sweeter. And
I said, what do you want me to say when
(24:03):
people ask me about this relationship? And she said, you
can say whatever you
want.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Of course, to this day, Alanis has never revealed who
the song was actually about, and when she appeared on
Watch What Happens Live years later, she said she would
never reveal the truth.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Um,
and Alanis and Julia, thank you so much for making
my teenage years so memorable. Um.
Polanis, how sick are you of people asking if you
ought to know is about Uncle Jelly from Full House
and will you will you ever reveal it as part two?
No revealing, but I am intrigued at the thought that
or at the fact that more than one person has
(24:41):
taken credit for it, and I'm thinking.
I don't know if you want to take credit for
being the person I wrote you on in right actually
he was on this show and I feel like he
kind of took credit for it on this show. Like
there's like about 6 people that have taken credit for
it and um I just think, you know, if you're
gonna take credit for a song where I'm singing about
someone being a douche or an asshole.
(25:03):
You might not want to, yeah, you might not want
to say, hey, that's me. Yeah, right, right, right,
right.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
When it was released on June 13th, 1995, Atlantis's third album,
Jagged Little Pill, obliterated any expectations that the label had
for it. You ought to Know was rapidly climbing up
the charts all over the world, but especially making an
impact in America. When it reached number one on the
Billboard Modern Rock Tracks chart, she.
She became the first woman to ever achieve that, and
(25:31):
it would be the first of many achievements for her.
In interviews, Alanis referred to Jagged Little Pill as her
debut album in a bid to forget her past and
start her career with a clean slate. It really is
her debut album though, if you think about it, because
this is the one that wasn't influenced by a bunch
of old pervs telling her what to be and that
she needs to lose weight. Anyway, when she was asked.
(25:53):
By Rolling Stone about the first two albums, she said,
I'm not scared people might hear those records. There's nothing
I regret. Maybe people will just understand my lyrics now
a little more if they hear those records. It validates
this record. There was an element of me not being
who I really was at the time. It was because
I wasn't prepared to open up that way. The focus
for me then was entertaining people as opposed to sharing
(26:16):
any revelations I had at the time. I had them,
but I wasn't prepared to share.
But to be honest, most people didn't care that she
used to be Canada's Debbie Gibson. Alanis Moorset, as she's
now known, was a take no shit alternative rock star
who was purging all of these raw feelings and emotions
that so many girls and women could relate to. She
(26:38):
was quickly becoming the voice of her generation at a
time in which she believed there was quote an abject
hatred of women.
Yeah, it was just at that time. Uh, naturally, with
all of this praise and success, the press would paint
Alanis as an angry white female. That's what Rolling Stone
called her when they put her on the front cover
in November 1995. Here is Allanis reflecting to iHeartRadio on
(27:02):
what it was like to be a woman in 1995.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
I think for me it was more about the 1990s
was very insulated and isolating in terms of being a
woman and a very, very patriarchal environment. So if I
could have done.
Anything differently, I would have made pa patriarchy go away
so I could have had more people around me who
were supportive. I'm like that's happening
now, so we're good.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
One of the most fascinating things about Jagged Little Pill
is how it just kept getting bigger and bigger and
selling more and more copies. Most albums generate 1 or
2 hits, but each single from Jagged Little Pill was
a banger. After you ought to Know Came You Learn,
then Hand in my pocket, and
Then on February 27, 1996, 8.5 months after the album
(27:48):
was released, the fourth single dropped. It was called Ironic,
and it was far different from the other songs on
the album. The song was not self-confessional or autobiographical the
way the rest of the songs were. Instead, Alanis and
Glenn built a tapestry of relatable, unlucky situations in which
irony reared its ugly head. For example, Rain on your.
(28:12):
Wedding day or 10,000 spoons when all you need is
a knife. In 2015, Glenn would explain the song's origin
in a Spotify landmark session, saying, our process began with
a lunch at Emilio Strattoria over chopped salads and iced tea.
I recalled her saying something like, Wouldn't it be ironic
for an old man to win the lottery and die
(28:32):
the next day? We were fresh with this thought when
we walked into the studio 10 minutes later. This was
the beginning of the true magic between us.
Ironic was one of the first songs the duo wrote
initially just as a demo to get things started. Alanis
and Glenn were just looking to have some fun, bouncing
words off each other and even questioning what type of
(28:52):
genre they were working in. But the two of them
weren't actually running their ideas through an irony authenticator. So
while the song became a hit, critics had just a
field day pointing out which lines weren't ironic by definition
and misusing the word.
It didn't really matter in the end because Ironic reached
more listeners spanning more radio formats than you ought to know,
(29:17):
thanks to its lighter, foolkier pop sound and singing a
song about things that are ironic that aren't actually ironic.
Isn't that ironic? Don't you think?
Ironic was one of 4 singles from Jagged Little Pill
to top the charts in Canada, but it was also
the highest charting single for Atlantis in the US, reaching
number 4 on the Billboard Hot 100. A lot of
(29:37):
its success was the result of a charming video directed
by Stefan Sinai in which we saw 4 different Atlantis
singing Ironic as they travel in a 1978 Lincoln Continental
Mark Vee along a snowy road.
Each Atlanis clone represented a free spirit dressed in a
different thrift shop purchased outfit to distinguish them from one another.
(29:58):
Alanis would tell Vogue the clothes were chosen to suit
the cold weather. I'm always moved by incredible colors, rich, muted,
and what they can tell us about where we are
at any given moment. She elaborated that the driver is
the responsible one. The spunky one in yellow with braids
is the quark stir. The one in the passenger seat
who hangs out the window is the romantic.
(30:19):
And the one in the backseat wearing green and banging
her head is the troublemaker. The ironic music video would
win three of the six categories it was nominated for
at the 1996 MTV Video Music Awards Best Female Video,
Best New Artist in a Video, and Best Editing. The
video for Ironic would be subjected to numerous parodies, including
(30:41):
Weird Al Yankovic and Toronto indie band Rusty, who recreated
it for their song and.
Cell. Ironic truly is iconic. Not bad for a song
Atlanis didn't even want on the album. Did I mention that?
Because it's true. When she appeared on Rolling Stones's Music
Now podcast, Atlanis admitted, I didn't even want it on
the album, and I remember a lot of people going, Please, please, please.
(31:05):
So I said, OK, people wound up really liking the melody,
and I wasn't that precious about it. Instead, it was
Glenn who insisted on adding it to Jagged Little Pill.
said she did come around to the song over time though,
admitting to Spotify, I do love it though, you know,
when I perform it, there's such a resonant precious moment
with the audience when we start playing that song. Just
(31:27):
how big was ironic for Alanis Morissette? Well, on top
of helping her sell more than 33 million copies of
Jagged Little Pill and it being part of a Broadway musical,
the song may have actually changed the English language. Here
she is on the Howard.
explaining how all of the confusion over her song actually
(31:47):
led to redefining the word ironic.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Ironic is funny because you got, you still get shit
to this day because everyone goes, hey, Alan, that's not
real irony in this song, but you were like, hey,
I'm 19. I don't, you know, I'm just trying to
come up with a song, right? Is that it? Glenn
and I were trying to make each other laugh and
I also think at the time, see, there's a part
of me that's quite aware that I'm very stupid, very,
(32:11):
very dumb.
Definition of ironic. Most people don't. And do, and then
there's another part of me that's really smart. I did
not care. I honestly thought maybe 100 people would hear
this song. Malapropisms what are you gonna do? But interestingly enough,
the dictionary, actually, this kills me about pop culture. The
dictionary changed the definition based on, I can't say singularly
on me, but I think based on people being so
confused about the definition of irony, and I am usually
(32:34):
a stickler for grammar, so it was a step out
for me.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Not too many songwriters can flex like that.
Ironic has been covered by almost too many people to name,
but the most memorable of all was by Alanis herself
when she appeared on The Late Late Show in 2015
and sang an updated version of Ironic with James Corden.
Here are some of the examples of those new lyrics.
So we had
(32:57):
An old friend sends you a Facebook request and you
only find out they're racist after you accept. That's a classic. Uh,
there's a traffic jam when you try to use Waze,
and how about it's like Netflix but you own DVDs.
It's a free run.
But your Uber's down the street. So pretty funny. I
(33:19):
like that she can have some fun with it. James
Corden must be a huge fan too, because he also
sang Ionic when he invited Justin Bieber to join him
for Carpool Karaoke.
Ironic is hands down Atlanis's biggest song of her career
with close to 600 million streams on Spotify and another
300 million views on the iconic video. And speaking of
(33:40):
that video in 2024, Atlanis teamed up with US Cellular
to recreate the music video in an attempt to help
people build healthier relationships with technology. Check it out.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Our phones were made to help us connect, and somehow
they've made us less connected.
Which is ironic, don't you think?
Phone for dinner, but the menu's on the phone.
Ironic.
We can't watch something without also watching something else.
(34:13):
Post about cuteness and miss the even cuterness.
Ironic.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
And Atlanis wasn't the only one reenacting the ironic music video.
Olivia Rodrigo, who inducted Alanis Moorsad into the Canadian Songwriters
Hall of Fame in 2022, paid homage to her hero
by adding a car sequence to the video from her
hit song Get Him Back at the induction ceremony, Olivia.
I had this to say about Alanis. My life was
(34:40):
completely changed after hearing Jagged Little Pill. Allanis's songwriting was
unlike anything I'd ever heard before, and I haven't heard
anything quite like it since. And that voice, fierce and
tender and sometimes funny and playful, I became hooked for life. Same, Olivia, same.
Well, that's it for another episode of Encore. I hope
(35:00):
it wasn't like rain on your wedding day. I'm Ruby Carr.
New episodes of Encore every Thursday.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Encore is an iHeart Radio Canada podcast. Download the free
iHeart Radio app and subscribe. Thank you. Thank you so
much for coming.
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