November 27, 2019 • 38 mins
From college campuses to the UN to the US Congress, it's one of the big debates of our time: is anti-Zionism anti-Semitism? Introducing the first episode of the Munk Debates podcast, featuring Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times columnist Bret Stephens VS The Atlantic contributing editor Peter Beinart.
Sources: CNN, CTV.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I
think it's time for this toxic binary zero sum madness stuff.
We're not an imperial power where Revolutionary Power Way are
no longer in a world where you can plot out moves,
statesman to statesman, like a chessboard. You don't know anything
about my background where it came from. It doesn't matter
to you because fundamentally, on the mean white man, we
(00:23):
can't do this to the next generation because America will
cease to exist.
Welcome to the monk debate podcast. I'm your moderator, Roger Griffis.
Our mission every episode is to provide you with civil
and substandard debate on the big issues of the day,
free of spin, focused on facts and animated by smart conversation.
(00:46):
By the end of each debate, our hope is that
you'll be armed with enough information to make up your
own mind about any given issue on this episode. Way
debate the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism.
When people sneakily make claims that they are for the
Jews but against Israel. That's something that we can't just
(01:10):
pretend is theoretically sound because we know the consequences that
too often follow from it.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Anti Semitism is something very frightening and very disturbing and
is coming from both the left and the right. But
it is not fair to make Palestinians pay the price
for that.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
It's a debate brewing on college campuses in our domestic politics,
and it's shaping opinion about the state of Israel on
the world stage. At the heart of the debate is
the issue of where and when. In fact, if ever
it's okay to question the legitimacy of the Jewish state
in present day Israel. We're gonna walk this fine line
with two big thinkers that holds sharply different points of view,
(01:53):
arguing for the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism is
anti Semitism is New York Times columnist Bret Stephens. His
opponent is Peter Beinhart, contributing editor at the Atlantic and
author of The Crisis of Zionism. Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart.
Welcome to the Monk debate podcast. Thank you. Good to
(02:13):
be here, Brett. Since you're speaking in favor of today's resolution,
be it resolved. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. Let's hear
your opening statement first start for us.
I think there's a common misconception
that anti Zionism
amounts to nothing more than a very strong criticism of Israel,
(02:35):
and I'd like to begin by dispelling that notion.
People who don't like the Netanyahu government that includes me,
um, are not anti Zionists. That's part of the normal
democratic debate.
People who oppose Israel's settlement policies or its policies
(02:57):
visa VI Gaza or anywhere else aren't necessarily anti Zionists.
There are many patriotic Israelis who feel just the same way.
Anti Zionism is unique because it's view is that the
Zionist enterprise, that is to say, the state of Israel
is misconceived.
It's wrong.
(03:18):
And at the end of the day, it isn't simply
Israeli policy that has to change.
But it is Israel itself
that has to go
now. This is unique when you think about other countries
around the world. Many of us are critics of China's
occupation of Tibet, Russia's occupation of parts of Ukraine. Some
(03:41):
people are aware that Turkey is occupying northern Cyprus in
violation of international law and putting down settlements there, too.
But none of those critiques extend to calls that are
now increasingly pervasive around the world, not only for Russia,
China or Turkey toe change their policies, but for the
(04:02):
states themselves to disappear, to be eliminated. So even if
you accept the premise for one second. Roger that. Anti
Zionism is not anti Semitism. You have to come to
grips with the
elimination ist ideology that is at the heart of anti Zionism.
But anti Zionism is anti Semitism.
(04:25):
First of all, it's anti Semitism for a reason. I
just suggested it is. It singles out the Jewish state
for opprobrium and with a prescription that anti Zionists apply
to no other state. Second point, that's very important is
that anti Zionism
(04:45):
tens very frequently to traffic in images,
in tropes
and in libels that have a long history in an
anti Semitic tradition stretching back for thousands of years. So,
for example, when you hear that Israel is committing genocide
in Gaza and it course manifestly is not, you are
(05:09):
abusing that word that is trafficking in a classic anti
Semitic trope, suggesting that the Jewish people have a particular
kind of bloodlust. Or if you say that Israel or
Israeli leaders have hypnotized the world to get them to
do their bidding, that again goes back to an old
anti Semitic trump. And finally, anti Semitism is anti Zionism because,
(05:32):
like all forms of Jew hatred in history, it has
adapted itself almost like a virus to the cultural and
political fashions of our day. Today, it is very difficult
for people to be anti Semites to hate Jews for
racial reasons, for the obvious reason that that kind of ideology,
(05:53):
fortunately, went out of fashion with the destruction of the
Third Reich. It's unfashionable to hate Jews simply on a
religious basis. But it has become fashionable to hate Jews,
using the excuse of their statehood, of their nationality and
of their willingness to defend their borders as the latest
pretext to single out Jewish people for opprobrium and for
(06:19):
hatred that is applied to almost no other people. If
no other people in the world. That is why, in
a nutshell,
anti Zionism is indistinguishable from anti Semitism. It is the
anti Semitism of our day. Bret Stephens. Thank you for
that opening statement. Pierre Beinhart. I'm gonna turn the microphone
over to you. Let's hear your opening remarks.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Sure, I think. First it is useful to try to
define what Zionism, or at least political Zionism is. It's
the idea that there should be a state. That privilege
is Jews that has a special responsibility to protect and
represent Jews. You see that in the state of Israel,
symbols which are religious and with immigration policy, which makes
it allows the diaspora Jews like myself to come to
Israel and become a citizen on stay one and makes
(07:01):
it virtually impossible for a Palestinian to immigrate to Israel
and become a citizen. Now I am a Zionist because
as a Jew, I believe in the importance of estate
that has a special responsibility to Jews. But I also
think that there are many, many examples of people who
do not support that Jewish privilege in the state of
Israel who are not anti Semite. So, for instance, there
(07:25):
is a component of the Jewish world that opposes Zionism.
Doesn't get necessarily that much attention. But the PSAT Marcus it, um,
for instance, who are the largest Pacific group in the
world they have meetings in in football. Stadiums that are
larger than the A pack national convention are anti Zionist
because of their traditional reading of Jewish texts. Jewish Voice
(07:46):
for Peace on the Left as a Jewish organization that
believes that its liberal democratic values our intention with the
idea of a state that privileges Jews even inside Israel proper,
privileges them over Palestinians. It's to that Most Jews around
the world are Zionists. But that wasn't always the case.
And there still is a robust debate about Zionism. Probably
(08:07):
if you look at younger American Jews today, you would
find that there's an even larger number of people who
have significant questions about the idea of Zionism, either because
traditional re Jewish religious texts say that it's incompatible with
Jewish religious law or because it violates their liberal democratic values.
In either case is those people is just simply not
anti Semites.
(08:28):
Secondly, you have almost all Palestinians are anti Zionists again
because they don't support the idea off a state that
privileges Jews over Palestinians now some of their anti Zionism
is absolutely Semitic if you look at the Islamic kind
of domination ist ideology of Hamas. But there are many
other Palestinians who say very openly and simply that they
(08:51):
want Israel to not be a Jewish state, but to
be a state for all its citizens in which everyone
lives under the same law. There were a number of
Palestinian members of the Knesset who introduced ah, what's called
a basic law in Israel last year, saying simply this.
They should not be a state built on principles of
privilege for any group. It should be a liberal democracy
with equal law provided to everybody.
(09:14):
Now it's true that there are many ethnically based states
around the world. But we do not, as a general principle,
have the idea that every nation that wants its own
state should have won the Kurds. Don't the Catalans Don't
the Basques don't the Quebecers don't I don't think we
would say that people who oppose a Kurdish state are
anti Semitic, and in fact, there are states that were
(09:36):
built on ethnic or racial privilege that have been dismantled, right?
So I do not consider Israel on apartheid state. I
think the way that a partisan Africa privileged whites over
blacks was much more extreme than the way that Israel
privileges Jews over non Jews. But when that was dismantled
and the project of national self determination for offer Connors
(09:56):
was ended and Israel became a state for all its citizens,
that wasn't anti Afrikaner bigotry. And if you say that
all Palestinians who are anti Zionists are anti Semites, even
those who say that all they want is one state
in which Jews and Palestinians live under unequal law. Then,
(10:17):
in fact, you are essentially delegitimizing all Palestinian politics. You're
equating Palestinian politics with bigotry, and I think that's very
destructive for our appreciation of Palestinian human dignity and, I
think undermines the quest for peace.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Thank you both for those opening statements. Let me quickly
sum up here. Bret Stephens. The gist of your argument
is that while it's become widely unacceptable to be anti
Semitic for racial or religious reasons, it has become acceptable
to criticize Jews for pursuing statehood or for defending their borders.
Which do you are essential to the very existence of
(10:56):
Israel
and Peter Beinhart. You're saying, quite simply, that one can
disagree with the politics of the state of Israel. You
can even be anti Zionist and still not be anti Semitic.
Hence your against the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism
is anti Semitism. Now let's move on to our rebuttals breath. Steven,
(11:17):
I'm gonna pass the microphone back to you to respond
to a few. The key things that Peter said that
are at the top of your mind. Well, I know
this debate is being heard. And obviously, in Canada and
in the United States and in both countries,
the idea of a state privileging a particular nation that is,
to say, a particular culture. Ethnicity, religion, language and so
(11:41):
on might seem a little strange to our traditions simply
because the United States was not founded as a nation state.
But you or many listeners might be surprised to learn
that around the world, all kinds of states, including states
that we consider upstanding members of the liberal Democratic order
do in fact offer certain kinds of privileges to a
(12:07):
given nation that are not offered to others. Let me
give you a neg. Zampa Ll Denmark, unlike the United States,
has an official language. Danish. You'll be surprised to learn
Germany for many years. I don't know if it's the
current policy, but it certainly was the policy. For decades Postwar,
Germany offered expedited citizenship to German nationals who had been
(12:31):
living in what became the Soviet Union for not decades.
But in fact, for centuries they offered citizenship based on
a kn ancestral claim of nationality and ethnicity. So the
idea that Zionism, that Jewish Sinus like the Danes, like
the Germans like many other nation states offer certain kind
(12:52):
of privileges to the dominant ethnic or religious group is
not a very strange idea. It's certainly not an outrageous idea.
I don't hear many people calling for the elimination of Germany,
much less the elimination of Denmark. Now, a second point
that Peter raises. You can always find the odd exception,
(13:13):
like he mentioned the Satmar Hasidim, who are not Zionists.
I'm perfectly happy to concede that there are these rare
exceptions as there are when it comes to any prejudice.
But that does not mean that we should overlook the
fact that if you were to draw a Venn diagram
and map anti Zionism over anti Semitism, the overlap would
(13:38):
be absolutely astonishing. So Peter is trying to point to
a handful of exceptions and say this disproves the rule.
I'm not sure that that's it. All. The case, the
third point and maybe into some listeners of the most
powerful point is to say well, there are a lot
of Palestinians who don't want a state of Israel who
(13:59):
want the destruction of the state of Israel, or at
least one it substituted with with with a single state
now for the last 25 for however many years,
well intended people and this includes myself have been working
and have been hoping for a two state solution precisely
because Zionism is so central to Jewish identity. So when
(14:24):
there are Palestinians who say we want the destruction of
the state of Israel rather than the creation of an
independent Palestinian state, they are in fact participating in that
anti Semitism, and it should be no surprise, and I'm
sorry to say this, but anti Semitism not just of
the postmodern 21st century anti Zionist variety but of the
(14:45):
old fashioned 19 century kind is alive and well on
Palestinian television, in Palestinian mosques and in Palestinian society. That's
a reality that a lot of supporters of Palestinian statehood
want to look away from. But if anyone is being
honest about Palestinian politics, they have to acknowledge that there
is far too much rank old fashioned anti Semitism inhabiting
(15:09):
of Palestinian politics, Palestinian discourse.
Thanks, Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart. Let's get your response to
what you've heard from breakfast. Now I want to
Speaker 2 (15:17):
start with the idea of the Venn diagram that there's
an almost exact over level not entirely almost exact between
the group of people who are Zionist and the group
of people who are anti Semites. I just think that's
not empirically the case. First of all, some of the
most valiantly in obviously anti Semitic leaders in the world today.
I think of someone like Viktor Orban in Hungary, for instance,
of the far right leaders in much of Europe and
to some degree, even Donald Trump, who has a much
(15:39):
longer history of peddling anti Semitic stereotypes than Ilhan Omar,
are very Zionist IQ. In fact, it's not intellectually inconsistent.
If you like the Polish leaders of the 19 thirties
who were anti Semitic. If you don't want Jews in
your country, you might be quite happy about the idea
that they would have a country of their own. And
what we know about polling in the United States suggest
(16:00):
that the Venn diagram actually may not really overlap nearly
as much as Brett says, because when the Anti Defamation
League did a study and they asked people to measure
their anti Semitism, they ask questions like to Jews have
too much power. Do they only look out for themselves?
They found that the most anti Semitic people in the
United States were older and without college degrees. And yet,
when people study Israel sentiment, hostility to Israel differences, the
(16:24):
Pew Research Center they find that the people who have
the most hostility to Israel tend to be young and
highly educated. So actually, the Venn diagram doesn't necessarily overlap
nearly as much. I think his bread is suggesting it
is certainly true. Bread is absolutely right. There are lots
of countries in the world that have crosses or crescents
on their flags and that have some form of preferential
(16:45):
immigration policy. Israel is at an extreme in the sense
that even though Britain has across on its flag, Britain
has had a Jewish prime minister. Where is very difficult
to imagine the state of Israel having, let's say, a
Palestinian prime minister? But I think the critical point for
our debate is that if you were a Brit who
wanted to take that cross off the flag or a
(17:05):
German to use Brett's example, who didn't want Germany to
have on immigration policy that privileged Germans over another group,
you might be right. You might be wrong. You wouldn't
be in a bigot for taking those used. This would
be on argument about ethnic versus civic nationalism, which is
an argument that takes place in all different parts of
the world. There is Palestinian anti Semitism. Bread is entirely
(17:28):
right about that. But when he used the word destruction
of the state of Israel, I think what he's conflating
is the notion that there are that some have, like
Islamic Jihad, for instance, of a violent war. T destroy
Israel and kill Jews, and another group of Palestinians who
have supporters around the world who want to replace Zionism,
which is an ethnic nationalism with a civic nationalism that
(17:51):
they believe would treat all people equally. There are very
good critiques of this. I am a supporter of the
two state solution, but I just don't think it makes.
I think it defies logic to say that someone who
wants people to live equally in one state is there
Speaker 1 (18:04):
for a bigot.
You're listening to the monk debate podcast, Be it resolved.
Anti Zionism is anti Semitism.
If you're enjoying this debate, check out our website monk
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(18:26):
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(18:46):
So, Brett, what's the rebuttal? That this discussion around anti
Zionism and labeling people is anti Zionists is cutting off
the kind of legitimate, necessary, sometimes difficult conversations that necessitate
that are the basis of sustaining some hope for a
two state solution? You know, just recently in the United States,
(19:09):
we've had a NAR Gye mint between left and right
over some horrendous comments that the president made with respect
to four minority Congress women
in which he said that they should quote, go back
to the countries that are supposedly their countries of origin.
And obviously, and importantly, Omar has a history of launching
(19:33):
vicious anti Semitic
screens.
I mean, to me, this is a nakedly bigoted and
frankly racist comment, and I don't need
I don't need anyone to tell me otherwise, but I
found it interesting to listen to some
conservative commentators
(19:55):
either duck the question of the statements, bigotry and racism altogether,
or actually engage in this kind of fine grained, legalistic
parsing as to whether it was racist or merely xenophobic.
We live in an age when we not only see
and hear, but if you don't mind my saying when
we smell, when we get that whiff of racist bigotry,
(20:17):
we call it out. And people on the left people
who typically are on Peter Side of the debate have
been very vocal in doing so. And I, of course,
have have joined them in that as a as a
so called never trump conservative. But I find amazing is
that when we come to a different kind of bigotry,
which is the bigotry against Jews that all of a sudden,
(20:39):
my friends who are so attuned to micro aggressions into
racist dog whistles start to sound a little bit like
the Mitch McConnells of the world and trying to carefully
parse exactly what the language was that was used and
to make excuses for people who are engaging in just
the kinds of stereotypes and tropes and language that those
(21:02):
of us who understand anti Semitism are unfortunately all too
familiar with. And I would wish that someone like Peter,
who is so honorably thoughtful when it comes to calling
out racism when he sees it and not allowing Racists
toe hide behind carefully parsed language, would be equally vocal
(21:23):
when it comes to not insisting on these exquisitely fine
grain distinctions between anti Zionism and anti Semitism.
I want to make a final point, which is this.
We are living in an era
of resurgent anti Semitism, and this is not. This is
not a question of anti Semitism or anti Zionism. When
(21:45):
a program nearly happens in a synagogue in Paris, when
protesters in Germany call for Jews to go, Palestinian protesters
or Arab protesters in Germany call for choose to go
to the to the gas. When schools throughout Europe, Jewish
schools are behind armed guards and when a synagogue in
Pittsburgh and another synagogue in San Diego is victimized by
(22:10):
anti Semitic, violent, murderous hatred. We're living in a certain Europe,
and that's an era in which we've learned that not
just in Europe but also here in North America. Jews
aren't entirely safe,
the one place where Jews actually can defend themselves and
have the sovereign and legal means to do so
(22:33):
is in the state of Israel, and it behooves anyone
with a sense of the long and violent history of
anti Semitism
toe understand that. That's why those of us who have
that sense are so careful to not only denounce anti
Semitism when we see it, but to understand that the
(22:54):
long term security of the Jewish people
requires the safety and health of the state of Israel
and when people sneakily make claims that they are for
the Jews but against Israel, that's something that we can't
just pretend is theoretically sound because we know the consequences
(23:17):
that too often follow from it. Thank you, Brad Peter.
That's the point that I've thought about also in the
context of this debate, I mean, why isn't it fair
to take a harder line on anti Zionism to draw clear,
sharper distinctions? Because we are seeing this wave of rising
anti Semitism, and how can the to not be in
(23:38):
some way intertwined and linked and feeding off one another?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I mean, the two can be intertwined and interlinked if
you've got a pro Palestinian march that is saying juice
to go to the gas, then That's clearly both anti
Zionist and anti Semitic. I'm not saying that people who
anti Zionist like Louis Farrakhan, for instance, or Hamas cannot
also be anti Semitic. I'm simply saying that Zionists could
be anti Semites to look at Viktor Orban and that
(24:02):
anti Zionists cannot be anti Semites. You know, Brett might
not like the folks in Jewish for his for peace,
but they have 15,000 members, which is almost as big
as some of the right wing Jewish organizations, and they
genuinely believe and again they come out of that. There's
a long tradition going back to the book and a
tradition of anti Zionist Jews not because they don't care
about Jewish welfare, but because they don't believe that ethnic
(24:22):
nationalism is the best way to provide for Jewish security.
And the problem is that anti Semitism is something very
frightening and very disturbing and is coming from both the
left and the right. But it is not fair to
make Palestinians pay. The price for that is if to
suggest that because Jews are frightened because of our history
(24:46):
and frightened now that therefore we have no concern about
the rights of Palestinians that they write. Palestinians also have
basic rights and to deny Palestinians their basic rights is
also ah form of bigotry. I always find it odd
that so many of the same people who say that
it is bigoted to depose a Jewish state seem not
(25:06):
to find it bigoted at all to oppose a Palestinian state, right?
Many members of Congress oppose a Palestinian state. Are they bigots, too?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
ESO? Earlier this year, at a town hall meeting in
ST Catharines, Ontario, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau came out
against the BDS movement, the Boycott, divestment and sanctions movement,
which is the campaign promoting various boycotts against the state
of Israel. Here's a clip when you have movements like
BDs that singles out Israel
(25:39):
that seeks to delegitimize and in some cases, demonize. When
you have students on campus
dealing with things like Israel apartheid weeks, that makes them
fearful of actually attending campus events because of their religion
in Canada. We have to recognize that there are things
(25:59):
that aren't acceptable, not because of foreign policy concerns,
but because of Canadian values. It's not right to discriminate
or to make someone feel unsafe on campus because of
their religion. And unfortunately, the BDS movement is often linked
to those kinds of friends. Peter Beinhart first to you.
(26:20):
Do you agree with people like Justin Trudeau? Is the
BDs movement anti Semitic?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
No, I don't think the BDS movement is inherently anti Semitic.
They're certainly anti Semites in the BDs movement. As I said,
there are anti Semites on the pro Israel right, both
in the U. S and Europe as well. The BDS movement,
which I oppose, wants to boycott all of Israel until
Israel leaves the occupied territories until there is the right
(26:45):
of refugee return. And until there is a quality for
Palestinian citizens, I have critiques of all of those three points.
But there's nothing inherently anti Semitic in that view, unless
you believe that it is bigoted to oppose Jewish state
in which I don't believe others would say it's bigoted
because they're singling out Israel. The problem with that argument
is that the BDS movement emerges from Palestinian civil society.
(27:08):
It was a Palestinian call for a boycott modeled on
the call by Black by the A, M, C and
others in black South Africa. People around the world are
responding to that call Most of those people, in my experience,
who supported the BDS movement. They're responding to a particular
boycott call from the Palestinians, and it is not discriminatory
(27:28):
to respond to one particular groups of people's call for
a boycott. I think if there were a similar movement
that emerged from Tibet or Saudi Arabia, you would see
that many of those same people, including myself, would be
very sympathetic to
Speaker 1 (27:40):
it.
But the problem is that there is no similar movement.
And here's why the BDS movement is anti Semitic because
the same people who don't think twice about using cell
phones with components that are made by prison labor in China,
the same people who wouldn't think twice about taking a
vacation in India. Despite questions about India's position in Kashmir,
(28:05):
the same people who wouldn't think twice about visiting Istanbul
have alighted on the one state that they wish to
boycott and divest from, which just by some weird coincidence,
happens to be the Jewish state and the origins. I'm
sorry to say, but the origins of the BDS movement
do not lie in the American civil rights movement. The
(28:26):
origins of the BDs movement lie in the longstanding Arab
boycott of the state of Israel, which began even before
Israel came into existence, began in the early 19 forties.
That partakes of the kind of odious bigotry that, of course,
was ubiquitous in Nazi Germany when Jewish businesses were being
boycotted for obvious and obviously anti Semitic reasons back then.
(28:50):
So if you're gonna tell me that you oppose Israeli
policy in the West Bank and therefore you're gonna boycott
Israel just as you are boycotting Chinese goods, Justus, you
are boycotting Russian goods and so forth and so on.
Then I'm happy to make an exception for you and
to say that at least you're applying your principles universally.
But when you have a movement that is singularly focused
(29:12):
on boycotting the state, that happens to be the Jewish
one in a way that you're not applying that same
principle equally, then that's a discriminatory and anti Semitic practice,
and we should listen.
People who are the victims of bigotry, whether they are black,
whether they are gay or whether they are Jews, do
not have the option to be idiots. They do not
(29:34):
have the option to say, Well, let's constantly give those
who are persecuting us the benefit of the doubt. On
the contrary, they have an obligation not only to stand
up for themselves, but they have an obligation to call
out bigotry as they see it. And at least put
the onus on the BDs er's or on the homophobes
(29:55):
or on the white nationalist to say, Tell us exactly
why it is that we shouldn't call out your bigotry.
If you can provide a convincing explanation, then we might
be willing to listen to you. But to preemptively simply say, Well,
the BDS movement
says it's not anti Semitic, and therefore we're going toe
to accept that explanation I think is worse than foolish.
(30:17):
It's naive, and it's an invitation for even more insidious
kinds of bigotry. Look,
Speaker 2 (30:21):
the BDS movement is a Palestinian movement. It emerged in
2005 created by a call for Palestinian civil society, by
the way, after the end of the second intifada, when
Palestinians were looking for a nonviolent way off trying to
gain their right. So there's something to me kind of
bizarre about saying about a Palestinian movement. Why are they
not focusing equally on Burma? It's a Palestinian movement created
(30:44):
by Palestinians. Yes, its appeal to people around the world.
But it was created by Palestinians because they're responding to
their own basic oppression. Anyone who's spent one day in
the West Bank with Palestinians will see the magnitude of
that of that oppression, people who live without their whole
lives without basic rights. I mean the notion that you
are a bigot if you focus on one particular unjust
(31:06):
policy you want oppose because you don't oppose all in
the world with the same vigor, I just think belies reality.
In the 19 seventies, the organized American Jewish community boycotted
the Bolshoi Ballet because Soviets were not allowing Giusto leave
the Soviet Union. And I think it was a very
proud moment in American Jewish history. The Sylvian was not
the worst regime in the world. At that point, there
(31:27):
was the Camaro Rouge. There was a D Amine. So
someone have said, Ah, this is bigotry. You're not equally
focused on what's happening in Cambodia. In Uganda, the point was,
this was a Jewish movement that was based on trying
to secure rights for Jews. People have the right to
try to gain liberation and for themselves. That's what the
BDS movement, which comes out of Palestinian society is, and
(31:50):
therefore I just don't think it makes sense to say
that it is bigoted because those people are not equally
focused on the 1,000,000 other forms of oppression that exists
in the
Speaker 1 (31:58):
world.
You're listening to the monk debate podcast, Be it resolved.
Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. Arguing for the motion is
New York Times columnist Bret Stephens. Peter Beinhart, contributing editor
at the Atlantic, is arguing against the resolution.
(32:18):
One final question brief on this. Before we go into
your closing statements, just short summations each
Bret, is there something Peters said today that would cause
you to rethink a piece of your argument?
No
Peter saying question to you. Are you set in the
thes beliefs or has Brett unsettled something that you've been
(32:41):
thinking about in terms of this
Speaker 2 (32:43):
deal? I take very seriously. Bretz concern about what it
would mean for Jews to enter into this very uncertain century,
continue down that path without a Jewish state, and so
in that regard that is something that worries me a
great deal, and I fully recognize that anti Zionist and
the BDS movement are led by people who don't want
(33:05):
a Jewish state to exist. So I understand that
fear and concern that Brett has it's simply that I
think a lot of this just comes out of all
the time that I spent with Palestinian anti Zionist. I
just cannot call people in good conscience anti Semites when
I know from personal experience that they're not. And they
want the same things for their Children that I want
for myself, is their anti Semitism among anti Zionism, The
(33:27):
BDS movement? Yes, I've had Palestinians say to me that
they've heard and they've heard anti Semitic things in BDs
movement meetings that does exist. That is something that's very worrying.
But it's also important for us to remember that some
of the most prominent and I think dangerous anti Semites
in the world today are actually supporters of the state
of Israel as well.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So Peter Wilson, closing remarks some up any key points
you wantto leave us with, I want to
Speaker 2 (33:51):
briefly quote This is the Basic Law that was introduced
by three Palestinian Israeli members of the Knesset last year,
and they said we do not deny Israel or its
right to exist as a home for Jews were simply
saying that we want to base the existence of the
state not on the preference of Jews, but on the
basis of equality. The state should exist in the framework
of equality and not in the framer of preference and superiority.
(34:12):
I have my differences with those Palestinian members of the Knesset,
but I simply don't see how one can call that bigotry.
And this has very important real world implications because the
definition of anti Zionism as anti Semitism which was almost adopted,
for instance by the University of California system. If you
say anti Zionism is anti Semitism on and should be
bigotry that therefore you know, deserves penalties when it's experienced
(34:35):
on college campuses, you're basically saying that groups like Students
for Justice in Palestine, Theo entire Palestinian political movement basically
is a form of bigotry and therefore doesn't necessarily have
the right basic rights to free speech. I think that's
deeply dangerous and dehumanizing. It's important to remember that we
not only live in a time of rising anti Semitism,
we also live in a time of rising Islamophobia, and
(34:58):
we live in an age where bigotry against Palestinians is,
in a way so pervasive that we don't even have
a name for which is to say that people can
routinely suggest that Palestinians should live their entire lives under
military law without basic rights. And we don't even think
about that. It's a form of bigotry. So if we're
concerned about bigotry, wanna fight all forms of bigotry? I
think inflating anti Zionism anti Semitism opens the door to
(35:20):
a very profound bigotry against Palestinians, which says they don't
have the right to live to express political views that
are based on their own experience and their desire for equality.
And I think that's a mistake.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Thank you, Peter Beinhart, Bret Stephens. You're closing remarks.
Israel has always been central to Jewish identity, and that
was true both before there was the state of Israel.
And in the 71 years that there has been a
state of Israel.
We're living in a period in which the evidence of
(35:53):
rising and murderous anti Semitism is not only frightening, it's undeniable.
And so to get behind on ideology
that is inimical to the way in which the overwhelming
majority of Jews
see themselves and see their national and cultural and religious aspirations,
(36:19):
and to argue for the elimination
of the one state in the world that provides every
Jew around the world with some assurance that there are
means for its own self defense strikes me as inherently
anti Semitic. Anyone who has a sense of moral decency
(36:41):
cares for the rights of all embattled minorities. And I
look forward to the day in which Palestinian leaders ceased
to embrace groups like Hamas, which are anti Semitic and
call for Israel's destruction and embrace the politics that leads
to a state in which all Palestinians have democratic representation
(37:04):
and liberal Democratic rights. While we wait for that to happen,
we should be avid Zionists because to wish for the
opposite is effectively leaving the Jewish people to resort to
the kindness of strangers. And anyone who knows anything about
Jewish history knows that that provides no long term security
(37:27):
at all. Well, Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart Thank you for
a civil substantive conversation on a difficult, contested issue. I
think we've moved the conversation forward, and it's thanks to
your thoughtfulness and your ability to engage with each other much,
much appreciated. Thank you thank you all the best. Thanks
a lot.
(37:48):
Thank you for listening to the monk debate Podcast place
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(38:08):
with a full transcript. Thank you for helping us bring
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(38:29):
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I
think it's time for this toxic binary zero sum madness stuff.
We're not an imperial power where Revolutionary Power Way are
no longer in a world where you can plot out moves,
statesman to statesman, like a chessboard. You don't know anything
about my background where it came from. It doesn't matter
to you because fundamentally, on the mean white man, we
(00:23):
can't do this to the next generation because America will
cease to exist.
Welcome to the monk debate podcast. I'm your moderator, Roger Griffis.
Our mission every episode is to provide you with civil
and substandard debate on the big issues of the day,
free of spin, focused on facts and animated by smart conversation.
(00:46):
By the end of each debate, our hope is that
you'll be armed with enough information to make up your
own mind about any given issue on this episode. Way
debate the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism.
When people sneakily make claims that they are for the
Jews but against Israel. That's something that we can't just
(01:10):
pretend is theoretically sound because we know the consequences that
too often follow from it.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Anti Semitism is something very frightening and very disturbing and
is coming from both the left and the right. But
it is not fair to make Palestinians pay the price
for that.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
It's a debate brewing on college campuses in our domestic politics,
and it's shaping opinion about the state of Israel on
the world stage. At the heart of the debate is
the issue of where and when. In fact, if ever
it's okay to question the legitimacy of the Jewish state
in present day Israel. We're gonna walk this fine line
with two big thinkers that holds sharply different points of view,
(01:53):
arguing for the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism is
anti Semitism is New York Times columnist Bret Stephens. His
opponent is Peter Beinhart, contributing editor at the Atlantic and
author of The Crisis of Zionism. Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart.
Welcome to the Monk debate podcast. Thank you. Good to
(02:13):
be here, Brett. Since you're speaking in favor of today's resolution,
be it resolved. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. Let's hear
your opening statement first start for us.
I think there's a common misconception
that anti Zionism
amounts to nothing more than a very strong criticism of Israel,
(02:35):
and I'd like to begin by dispelling that notion.
People who don't like the Netanyahu government that includes me,
um, are not anti Zionists. That's part of the normal
democratic debate.
People who oppose Israel's settlement policies or its policies
(02:57):
visa VI Gaza or anywhere else aren't necessarily anti Zionists.
There are many patriotic Israelis who feel just the same way.
Anti Zionism is unique because it's view is that the
Zionist enterprise, that is to say, the state of Israel
is misconceived.
It's wrong.
(03:18):
And at the end of the day, it isn't simply
Israeli policy that has to change.
But it is Israel itself
that has to go
now. This is unique when you think about other countries
around the world. Many of us are critics of China's
occupation of Tibet, Russia's occupation of parts of Ukraine. Some
(03:41):
people are aware that Turkey is occupying northern Cyprus in
violation of international law and putting down settlements there, too.
But none of those critiques extend to calls that are
now increasingly pervasive around the world, not only for Russia,
China or Turkey toe change their policies, but for the
(04:02):
states themselves to disappear, to be eliminated. So even if
you accept the premise for one second. Roger that. Anti
Zionism is not anti Semitism. You have to come to
grips with the
elimination ist ideology that is at the heart of anti Zionism.
But anti Zionism is anti Semitism.
(04:25):
First of all, it's anti Semitism for a reason. I
just suggested it is. It singles out the Jewish state
for opprobrium and with a prescription that anti Zionists apply
to no other state. Second point, that's very important is
that anti Zionism
(04:45):
tens very frequently to traffic in images,
in tropes
and in libels that have a long history in an
anti Semitic tradition stretching back for thousands of years. So,
for example, when you hear that Israel is committing genocide
in Gaza and it course manifestly is not, you are
(05:09):
abusing that word that is trafficking in a classic anti
Semitic trope, suggesting that the Jewish people have a particular
kind of bloodlust. Or if you say that Israel or
Israeli leaders have hypnotized the world to get them to
do their bidding, that again goes back to an old
anti Semitic trump. And finally, anti Semitism is anti Zionism because,
(05:32):
like all forms of Jew hatred in history, it has
adapted itself almost like a virus to the cultural and
political fashions of our day. Today, it is very difficult
for people to be anti Semites to hate Jews for
racial reasons, for the obvious reason that that kind of ideology,
(05:53):
fortunately, went out of fashion with the destruction of the
Third Reich. It's unfashionable to hate Jews simply on a
religious basis. But it has become fashionable to hate Jews,
using the excuse of their statehood, of their nationality and
of their willingness to defend their borders as the latest
pretext to single out Jewish people for opprobrium and for
(06:19):
hatred that is applied to almost no other people. If
no other people in the world. That is why, in
a nutshell,
anti Zionism is indistinguishable from anti Semitism. It is the
anti Semitism of our day. Bret Stephens. Thank you for
that opening statement. Pierre Beinhart. I'm gonna turn the microphone
over to you. Let's hear your opening remarks.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Sure, I think. First it is useful to try to
define what Zionism, or at least political Zionism is. It's
the idea that there should be a state. That privilege
is Jews that has a special responsibility to protect and
represent Jews. You see that in the state of Israel,
symbols which are religious and with immigration policy, which makes
it allows the diaspora Jews like myself to come to
Israel and become a citizen on stay one and makes
(07:01):
it virtually impossible for a Palestinian to immigrate to Israel
and become a citizen. Now I am a Zionist because
as a Jew, I believe in the importance of estate
that has a special responsibility to Jews. But I also
think that there are many, many examples of people who
do not support that Jewish privilege in the state of
Israel who are not anti Semite. So, for instance, there
(07:25):
is a component of the Jewish world that opposes Zionism.
Doesn't get necessarily that much attention. But the PSAT Marcus it, um,
for instance, who are the largest Pacific group in the
world they have meetings in in football. Stadiums that are
larger than the A pack national convention are anti Zionist
because of their traditional reading of Jewish texts. Jewish Voice
(07:46):
for Peace on the Left as a Jewish organization that
believes that its liberal democratic values our intention with the
idea of a state that privileges Jews even inside Israel proper,
privileges them over Palestinians. It's to that Most Jews around
the world are Zionists. But that wasn't always the case.
And there still is a robust debate about Zionism. Probably
(08:07):
if you look at younger American Jews today, you would
find that there's an even larger number of people who
have significant questions about the idea of Zionism, either because
traditional re Jewish religious texts say that it's incompatible with
Jewish religious law or because it violates their liberal democratic values.
In either case is those people is just simply not
anti Semites.
(08:28):
Secondly, you have almost all Palestinians are anti Zionists again
because they don't support the idea off a state that
privileges Jews over Palestinians now some of their anti Zionism
is absolutely Semitic if you look at the Islamic kind
of domination ist ideology of Hamas. But there are many
other Palestinians who say very openly and simply that they
(08:51):
want Israel to not be a Jewish state, but to
be a state for all its citizens in which everyone
lives under the same law. There were a number of
Palestinian members of the Knesset who introduced ah, what's called
a basic law in Israel last year, saying simply this.
They should not be a state built on principles of
privilege for any group. It should be a liberal democracy
with equal law provided to everybody.
(09:14):
Now it's true that there are many ethnically based states
around the world. But we do not, as a general principle,
have the idea that every nation that wants its own
state should have won the Kurds. Don't the Catalans Don't
the Basques don't the Quebecers don't I don't think we
would say that people who oppose a Kurdish state are
anti Semitic, and in fact, there are states that were
(09:36):
built on ethnic or racial privilege that have been dismantled, right?
So I do not consider Israel on apartheid state. I
think the way that a partisan Africa privileged whites over
blacks was much more extreme than the way that Israel
privileges Jews over non Jews. But when that was dismantled
and the project of national self determination for offer Connors
(09:56):
was ended and Israel became a state for all its citizens,
that wasn't anti Afrikaner bigotry. And if you say that
all Palestinians who are anti Zionists are anti Semites, even
those who say that all they want is one state
in which Jews and Palestinians live under unequal law. Then,
(10:17):
in fact, you are essentially delegitimizing all Palestinian politics. You're
equating Palestinian politics with bigotry, and I think that's very
destructive for our appreciation of Palestinian human dignity and, I
think undermines the quest for peace.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Thank you both for those opening statements. Let me quickly
sum up here. Bret Stephens. The gist of your argument
is that while it's become widely unacceptable to be anti
Semitic for racial or religious reasons, it has become acceptable
to criticize Jews for pursuing statehood or for defending their borders.
Which do you are essential to the very existence of
(10:56):
Israel
and Peter Beinhart. You're saying, quite simply, that one can
disagree with the politics of the state of Israel. You
can even be anti Zionist and still not be anti Semitic.
Hence your against the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism
is anti Semitism. Now let's move on to our rebuttals breath. Steven,
(11:17):
I'm gonna pass the microphone back to you to respond
to a few. The key things that Peter said that
are at the top of your mind. Well, I know
this debate is being heard. And obviously, in Canada and
in the United States and in both countries,
the idea of a state privileging a particular nation that is,
to say, a particular culture. Ethnicity, religion, language and so
(11:41):
on might seem a little strange to our traditions simply
because the United States was not founded as a nation state.
But you or many listeners might be surprised to learn
that around the world, all kinds of states, including states
that we consider upstanding members of the liberal Democratic order
do in fact offer certain kinds of privileges to a
(12:07):
given nation that are not offered to others. Let me
give you a neg. Zampa Ll Denmark, unlike the United States,
has an official language. Danish. You'll be surprised to learn
Germany for many years. I don't know if it's the
current policy, but it certainly was the policy. For decades Postwar,
Germany offered expedited citizenship to German nationals who had been
(12:31):
living in what became the Soviet Union for not decades.
But in fact, for centuries they offered citizenship based on
a kn ancestral claim of nationality and ethnicity. So the
idea that Zionism, that Jewish Sinus like the Danes, like
the Germans like many other nation states offer certain kind
(12:52):
of privileges to the dominant ethnic or religious group is
not a very strange idea. It's certainly not an outrageous idea.
I don't hear many people calling for the elimination of Germany,
much less the elimination of Denmark. Now, a second point
that Peter raises. You can always find the odd exception,
(13:13):
like he mentioned the Satmar Hasidim, who are not Zionists.
I'm perfectly happy to concede that there are these rare
exceptions as there are when it comes to any prejudice.
But that does not mean that we should overlook the
fact that if you were to draw a Venn diagram
and map anti Zionism over anti Semitism, the overlap would
(13:38):
be absolutely astonishing. So Peter is trying to point to
a handful of exceptions and say this disproves the rule.
I'm not sure that that's it. All. The case, the
third point and maybe into some listeners of the most
powerful point is to say well, there are a lot
of Palestinians who don't want a state of Israel who
(13:59):
want the destruction of the state of Israel, or at
least one it substituted with with with a single state
now for the last 25 for however many years,
well intended people and this includes myself have been working
and have been hoping for a two state solution precisely
because Zionism is so central to Jewish identity. So when
(14:24):
there are Palestinians who say we want the destruction of
the state of Israel rather than the creation of an
independent Palestinian state, they are in fact participating in that
anti Semitism, and it should be no surprise, and I'm
sorry to say this, but anti Semitism not just of
the postmodern 21st century anti Zionist variety but of the
(14:45):
old fashioned 19 century kind is alive and well on
Palestinian television, in Palestinian mosques and in Palestinian society. That's
a reality that a lot of supporters of Palestinian statehood
want to look away from. But if anyone is being
honest about Palestinian politics, they have to acknowledge that there
is far too much rank old fashioned anti Semitism inhabiting
(15:09):
of Palestinian politics, Palestinian discourse.
Thanks, Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart. Let's get your response to
what you've heard from breakfast. Now I want to
Speaker 2 (15:17):
start with the idea of the Venn diagram that there's
an almost exact over level not entirely almost exact between
the group of people who are Zionist and the group
of people who are anti Semites. I just think that's
not empirically the case. First of all, some of the
most valiantly in obviously anti Semitic leaders in the world today.
I think of someone like Viktor Orban in Hungary, for instance,
of the far right leaders in much of Europe and
to some degree, even Donald Trump, who has a much
(15:39):
longer history of peddling anti Semitic stereotypes than Ilhan Omar,
are very Zionist IQ. In fact, it's not intellectually inconsistent.
If you like the Polish leaders of the 19 thirties
who were anti Semitic. If you don't want Jews in
your country, you might be quite happy about the idea
that they would have a country of their own. And
what we know about polling in the United States suggest
(16:00):
that the Venn diagram actually may not really overlap nearly
as much as Brett says, because when the Anti Defamation
League did a study and they asked people to measure
their anti Semitism, they ask questions like to Jews have
too much power. Do they only look out for themselves?
They found that the most anti Semitic people in the
United States were older and without college degrees. And yet,
when people study Israel sentiment, hostility to Israel differences, the
(16:24):
Pew Research Center they find that the people who have
the most hostility to Israel tend to be young and
highly educated. So actually, the Venn diagram doesn't necessarily overlap
nearly as much. I think his bread is suggesting it
is certainly true. Bread is absolutely right. There are lots
of countries in the world that have crosses or crescents
on their flags and that have some form of preferential
(16:45):
immigration policy. Israel is at an extreme in the sense
that even though Britain has across on its flag, Britain
has had a Jewish prime minister. Where is very difficult
to imagine the state of Israel having, let's say, a
Palestinian prime minister? But I think the critical point for
our debate is that if you were a Brit who
wanted to take that cross off the flag or a
(17:05):
German to use Brett's example, who didn't want Germany to
have on immigration policy that privileged Germans over another group,
you might be right. You might be wrong. You wouldn't
be in a bigot for taking those used. This would
be on argument about ethnic versus civic nationalism, which is
an argument that takes place in all different parts of
the world. There is Palestinian anti Semitism. Bread is entirely
(17:28):
right about that. But when he used the word destruction
of the state of Israel, I think what he's conflating
is the notion that there are that some have, like
Islamic Jihad, for instance, of a violent war. T destroy
Israel and kill Jews, and another group of Palestinians who
have supporters around the world who want to replace Zionism,
which is an ethnic nationalism with a civic nationalism that
(17:51):
they believe would treat all people equally. There are very
good critiques of this. I am a supporter of the
two state solution, but I just don't think it makes.
I think it defies logic to say that someone who
wants people to live equally in one state is there
Speaker 1 (18:04):
for a bigot.
You're listening to the monk debate podcast, Be it resolved.
Anti Zionism is anti Semitism.
If you're enjoying this debate, check out our website monk
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(18:26):
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(18:46):
So, Brett, what's the rebuttal? That this discussion around anti
Zionism and labeling people is anti Zionists is cutting off
the kind of legitimate, necessary, sometimes difficult conversations that necessitate
that are the basis of sustaining some hope for a
two state solution? You know, just recently in the United States,
(19:09):
we've had a NAR Gye mint between left and right
over some horrendous comments that the president made with respect
to four minority Congress women
in which he said that they should quote, go back
to the countries that are supposedly their countries of origin.
And obviously, and importantly, Omar has a history of launching
(19:33):
vicious anti Semitic
screens.
I mean, to me, this is a nakedly bigoted and
frankly racist comment, and I don't need
I don't need anyone to tell me otherwise, but I
found it interesting to listen to some
conservative commentators
(19:55):
either duck the question of the statements, bigotry and racism altogether,
or actually engage in this kind of fine grained, legalistic
parsing as to whether it was racist or merely xenophobic.
We live in an age when we not only see
and hear, but if you don't mind my saying when
we smell, when we get that whiff of racist bigotry,
(20:17):
we call it out. And people on the left people
who typically are on Peter Side of the debate have
been very vocal in doing so. And I, of course,
have have joined them in that as a as a
so called never trump conservative. But I find amazing is
that when we come to a different kind of bigotry,
which is the bigotry against Jews that all of a sudden,
(20:39):
my friends who are so attuned to micro aggressions into
racist dog whistles start to sound a little bit like
the Mitch McConnells of the world and trying to carefully
parse exactly what the language was that was used and
to make excuses for people who are engaging in just
the kinds of stereotypes and tropes and language that those
(21:02):
of us who understand anti Semitism are unfortunately all too
familiar with. And I would wish that someone like Peter,
who is so honorably thoughtful when it comes to calling
out racism when he sees it and not allowing Racists
toe hide behind carefully parsed language, would be equally vocal
(21:23):
when it comes to not insisting on these exquisitely fine
grain distinctions between anti Zionism and anti Semitism.
I want to make a final point, which is this.
We are living in an era
of resurgent anti Semitism, and this is not. This is
not a question of anti Semitism or anti Zionism. When
(21:45):
a program nearly happens in a synagogue in Paris, when
protesters in Germany call for Jews to go, Palestinian protesters
or Arab protesters in Germany call for choose to go
to the to the gas. When schools throughout Europe, Jewish
schools are behind armed guards and when a synagogue in
Pittsburgh and another synagogue in San Diego is victimized by
(22:10):
anti Semitic, violent, murderous hatred. We're living in a certain Europe,
and that's an era in which we've learned that not
just in Europe but also here in North America. Jews
aren't entirely safe,
the one place where Jews actually can defend themselves and
have the sovereign and legal means to do so
(22:33):
is in the state of Israel, and it behooves anyone
with a sense of the long and violent history of
anti Semitism
toe understand that. That's why those of us who have
that sense are so careful to not only denounce anti
Semitism when we see it, but to understand that the
(22:54):
long term security of the Jewish people
requires the safety and health of the state of Israel
and when people sneakily make claims that they are for
the Jews but against Israel, that's something that we can't
just pretend is theoretically sound because we know the consequences
(23:17):
that too often follow from it. Thank you, Brad Peter.
That's the point that I've thought about also in the
context of this debate, I mean, why isn't it fair
to take a harder line on anti Zionism to draw clear,
sharper distinctions? Because we are seeing this wave of rising
anti Semitism, and how can the to not be in
(23:38):
some way intertwined and linked and feeding off one another?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I mean, the two can be intertwined and interlinked if
you've got a pro Palestinian march that is saying juice
to go to the gas, then That's clearly both anti
Zionist and anti Semitic. I'm not saying that people who
anti Zionist like Louis Farrakhan, for instance, or Hamas cannot
also be anti Semitic. I'm simply saying that Zionists could
be anti Semites to look at Viktor Orban and that
(24:02):
anti Zionists cannot be anti Semites. You know, Brett might
not like the folks in Jewish for his for peace,
but they have 15,000 members, which is almost as big
as some of the right wing Jewish organizations, and they
genuinely believe and again they come out of that. There's
a long tradition going back to the book and a
tradition of anti Zionist Jews not because they don't care
about Jewish welfare, but because they don't believe that ethnic
(24:22):
nationalism is the best way to provide for Jewish security.
And the problem is that anti Semitism is something very
frightening and very disturbing and is coming from both the
left and the right. But it is not fair to
make Palestinians pay. The price for that is if to
suggest that because Jews are frightened because of our history
(24:46):
and frightened now that therefore we have no concern about
the rights of Palestinians that they write. Palestinians also have
basic rights and to deny Palestinians their basic rights is
also ah form of bigotry. I always find it odd
that so many of the same people who say that
it is bigoted to depose a Jewish state seem not
(25:06):
to find it bigoted at all to oppose a Palestinian state, right?
Many members of Congress oppose a Palestinian state. Are they bigots, too?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
ESO? Earlier this year, at a town hall meeting in
ST Catharines, Ontario, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau came out
against the BDS movement, the Boycott, divestment and sanctions movement,
which is the campaign promoting various boycotts against the state
of Israel. Here's a clip when you have movements like
BDs that singles out Israel
(25:39):
that seeks to delegitimize and in some cases, demonize. When
you have students on campus
dealing with things like Israel apartheid weeks, that makes them
fearful of actually attending campus events because of their religion
in Canada. We have to recognize that there are things
(25:59):
that aren't acceptable, not because of foreign policy concerns,
but because of Canadian values. It's not right to discriminate
or to make someone feel unsafe on campus because of
their religion. And unfortunately, the BDS movement is often linked
to those kinds of friends. Peter Beinhart first to you.
(26:20):
Do you agree with people like Justin Trudeau? Is the
BDs movement anti Semitic?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
No, I don't think the BDS movement is inherently anti Semitic.
They're certainly anti Semites in the BDs movement. As I said,
there are anti Semites on the pro Israel right, both
in the U. S and Europe as well. The BDS movement,
which I oppose, wants to boycott all of Israel until
Israel leaves the occupied territories until there is the right
(26:45):
of refugee return. And until there is a quality for
Palestinian citizens, I have critiques of all of those three points.
But there's nothing inherently anti Semitic in that view, unless
you believe that it is bigoted to oppose Jewish state
in which I don't believe others would say it's bigoted
because they're singling out Israel. The problem with that argument
is that the BDS movement emerges from Palestinian civil society.
(27:08):
It was a Palestinian call for a boycott modeled on
the call by Black by the A, M, C and
others in black South Africa. People around the world are
responding to that call Most of those people, in my experience,
who supported the BDS movement. They're responding to a particular
boycott call from the Palestinians, and it is not discriminatory
(27:28):
to respond to one particular groups of people's call for
a boycott. I think if there were a similar movement
that emerged from Tibet or Saudi Arabia, you would see
that many of those same people, including myself, would be
very sympathetic to
Speaker 1 (27:40):
it.
But the problem is that there is no similar movement.
And here's why the BDS movement is anti Semitic because
the same people who don't think twice about using cell
phones with components that are made by prison labor in China,
the same people who wouldn't think twice about taking a
vacation in India. Despite questions about India's position in Kashmir,
(28:05):
the same people who wouldn't think twice about visiting Istanbul
have alighted on the one state that they wish to
boycott and divest from, which just by some weird coincidence,
happens to be the Jewish state and the origins. I'm
sorry to say, but the origins of the BDS movement
do not lie in the American civil rights movement. The
(28:26):
origins of the BDs movement lie in the longstanding Arab
boycott of the state of Israel, which began even before
Israel came into existence, began in the early 19 forties.
That partakes of the kind of odious bigotry that, of course,
was ubiquitous in Nazi Germany when Jewish businesses were being
boycotted for obvious and obviously anti Semitic reasons back then.
(28:50):
So if you're gonna tell me that you oppose Israeli
policy in the West Bank and therefore you're gonna boycott
Israel just as you are boycotting Chinese goods, Justus, you
are boycotting Russian goods and so forth and so on.
Then I'm happy to make an exception for you and
to say that at least you're applying your principles universally.
But when you have a movement that is singularly focused
(29:12):
on boycotting the state, that happens to be the Jewish
one in a way that you're not applying that same
principle equally, then that's a discriminatory and anti Semitic practice,
and we should listen.
People who are the victims of bigotry, whether they are black,
whether they are gay or whether they are Jews, do
not have the option to be idiots. They do not
(29:34):
have the option to say, Well, let's constantly give those
who are persecuting us the benefit of the doubt. On
the contrary, they have an obligation not only to stand
up for themselves, but they have an obligation to call
out bigotry as they see it. And at least put
the onus on the BDs er's or on the homophobes
(29:55):
or on the white nationalist to say, Tell us exactly
why it is that we shouldn't call out your bigotry.
If you can provide a convincing explanation, then we might
be willing to listen to you. But to preemptively simply say, Well,
the BDS movement
says it's not anti Semitic, and therefore we're going toe
to accept that explanation I think is worse than foolish.
(30:17):
It's naive, and it's an invitation for even more insidious
kinds of bigotry. Look,
Speaker 2 (30:21):
the BDS movement is a Palestinian movement. It emerged in
2005 created by a call for Palestinian civil society, by
the way, after the end of the second intifada, when
Palestinians were looking for a nonviolent way off trying to
gain their right. So there's something to me kind of
bizarre about saying about a Palestinian movement. Why are they
not focusing equally on Burma? It's a Palestinian movement created
(30:44):
by Palestinians. Yes, its appeal to people around the world.
But it was created by Palestinians because they're responding to
their own basic oppression. Anyone who's spent one day in
the West Bank with Palestinians will see the magnitude of
that of that oppression, people who live without their whole
lives without basic rights. I mean the notion that you
are a bigot if you focus on one particular unjust
(31:06):
policy you want oppose because you don't oppose all in
the world with the same vigor, I just think belies reality.
In the 19 seventies, the organized American Jewish community boycotted
the Bolshoi Ballet because Soviets were not allowing Giusto leave
the Soviet Union. And I think it was a very
proud moment in American Jewish history. The Sylvian was not
the worst regime in the world. At that point, there
(31:27):
was the Camaro Rouge. There was a D Amine. So
someone have said, Ah, this is bigotry. You're not equally
focused on what's happening in Cambodia. In Uganda, the point was,
this was a Jewish movement that was based on trying
to secure rights for Jews. People have the right to
try to gain liberation and for themselves. That's what the
BDS movement, which comes out of Palestinian society is, and
(31:50):
therefore I just don't think it makes sense to say
that it is bigoted because those people are not equally
focused on the 1,000,000 other forms of oppression that exists
in the
Speaker 1 (31:58):
world.
You're listening to the monk debate podcast, Be it resolved.
Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. Arguing for the motion is
New York Times columnist Bret Stephens. Peter Beinhart, contributing editor
at the Atlantic, is arguing against the resolution.
(32:18):
One final question brief on this. Before we go into
your closing statements, just short summations each
Bret, is there something Peters said today that would cause
you to rethink a piece of your argument?
No
Peter saying question to you. Are you set in the
thes beliefs or has Brett unsettled something that you've been
(32:41):
thinking about in terms of this
Speaker 2 (32:43):
deal? I take very seriously. Bretz concern about what it
would mean for Jews to enter into this very uncertain century,
continue down that path without a Jewish state, and so
in that regard that is something that worries me a
great deal, and I fully recognize that anti Zionist and
the BDS movement are led by people who don't want
(33:05):
a Jewish state to exist. So I understand that
fear and concern that Brett has it's simply that I
think a lot of this just comes out of all
the time that I spent with Palestinian anti Zionist. I
just cannot call people in good conscience anti Semites when
I know from personal experience that they're not. And they
want the same things for their Children that I want
for myself, is their anti Semitism among anti Zionism, The
(33:27):
BDS movement? Yes, I've had Palestinians say to me that
they've heard and they've heard anti Semitic things in BDs
movement meetings that does exist. That is something that's very worrying.
But it's also important for us to remember that some
of the most prominent and I think dangerous anti Semites
in the world today are actually supporters of the state
of Israel as well.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So Peter Wilson, closing remarks some up any key points
you wantto leave us with, I want to
Speaker 2 (33:51):
briefly quote This is the Basic Law that was introduced
by three Palestinian Israeli members of the Knesset last year,
and they said we do not deny Israel or its
right to exist as a home for Jews were simply
saying that we want to base the existence of the
state not on the preference of Jews, but on the
basis of equality. The state should exist in the framework
of equality and not in the framer of preference and superiority.
(34:12):
I have my differences with those Palestinian members of the Knesset,
but I simply don't see how one can call that bigotry.
And this has very important real world implications because the
definition of anti Zionism as anti Semitism which was almost adopted,
for instance by the University of California system. If you
say anti Zionism is anti Semitism on and should be
bigotry that therefore you know, deserves penalties when it's experienced
(34:35):
on college campuses, you're basically saying that groups like Students
for Justice in Palestine, Theo entire Palestinian political movement basically
is a form of bigotry and therefore doesn't necessarily have
the right basic rights to free speech. I think that's
deeply dangerous and dehumanizing. It's important to remember that we
not only live in a time of rising anti Semitism,
we also live in a time of rising Islamophobia, and
(34:58):
we live in an age where bigotry against Palestinians is,
in a way so pervasive that we don't even have
a name for which is to say that people can
routinely suggest that Palestinians should live their entire lives under
military law without basic rights. And we don't even think
about that. It's a form of bigotry. So if we're
concerned about bigotry, wanna fight all forms of bigotry? I
think inflating anti Zionism anti Semitism opens the door to
(35:20):
a very profound bigotry against Palestinians, which says they don't
have the right to live to express political views that
are based on their own experience and their desire for equality.
And I think that's a mistake.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Thank you, Peter Beinhart, Bret Stephens. You're closing remarks.
Israel has always been central to Jewish identity, and that
was true both before there was the state of Israel.
And in the 71 years that there has been a
state of Israel.
We're living in a period in which the evidence of
(35:53):
rising and murderous anti Semitism is not only frightening, it's undeniable.
And so to get behind on ideology
that is inimical to the way in which the overwhelming
majority of Jews
see themselves and see their national and cultural and religious aspirations,
(36:19):
and to argue for the elimination
of the one state in the world that provides every
Jew around the world with some assurance that there are
means for its own self defense strikes me as inherently
anti Semitic. Anyone who has a sense of moral decency
(36:41):
cares for the rights of all embattled minorities. And I
look forward to the day in which Palestinian leaders ceased
to embrace groups like Hamas, which are anti Semitic and
call for Israel's destruction and embrace the politics that leads
to a state in which all Palestinians have democratic representation
(37:04):
and liberal Democratic rights. While we wait for that to happen,
we should be avid Zionists because to wish for the
opposite is effectively leaving the Jewish people to resort to
the kindness of strangers. And anyone who knows anything about
Jewish history knows that that provides no long term security
(37:27):
at all. Well, Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart Thank you for
a civil substantive conversation on a difficult, contested issue. I
think we've moved the conversation forward, and it's thanks to
your thoughtfulness and your ability to engage with each other much,
much appreciated. Thank you thank you all the best. Thanks
a lot.
(37:48):
Thank you for listening to the monk debate Podcast place
for civil and substandard debate on the big issues of
the day
To listen to more debates on everything from climate change
to religion, to geopolitics, to the future of human progress.
Visit our website Triple W Monk debates dot com.
You can also find show notes on today's debate, along
(38:08):
with a full transcript. Thank you for helping us bring
back the art of public debate. One Conversation at a time.
I'm Roger Griffiths
Monk Debates are produced by Antica Productions and supported by
the Monk Foundation. Roger Griffiths and Ricky Gurwitz are the producers,
(38:29):
the executive producer of Stuart Cox.
Be sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your
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us a rating. Thanks again for listening
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