A Worthwhile Life with Michael Westover

Have you ever wondered what makes life worthwhile? In this Aging GreatFULLy power-hour we take a deep dive into exploring what gives life meaning–in simple, yet powerful ways—that result in life enrichment and transformation. Welcoming special guest and author of the perfect new book for this conversation, A Worthwhile Life: How to Find Meaning, Build Connection, and Cultivate Purpose, Michael Westover.

Westover helps us understand the distinction between the purpose of life and the meaning of life.

Michael Westover looked in the mirror one day and wondered what the point of it was. He had a successful career in health care, a stable family, and great friendships. Yet, he felt aimless. His life was full—meetings to further his career, hours of TV, activities with his children—but was it worthwhile? Westover wondered why countless people coasted through life as he had, feeling lost and disconnected, while others approached each day feeling worthy and valuable.

He wanted answers. But also, He wanted to feel worthwhile. So, he embarked on a journey for insight. But Westover didn’t just look to the modern era for clues to solve this question…he dug through centuries of research and set out on a philosophical passage to find connection and meaning. What he discovered significantly changed the way he lives his life! He learned that living a life that matters is simpler than we may imagine! And following five types of commitment that are research-proven to give life more meaning, we can all build a worthwhile life and avoid the cycle of distractions.

Westover gives advice from being a good neighbor, human steward or even what to do when life becomes overwhelming. He discusses the value of belief in a higher source, spirituality, faith or religion and how those practices can tether and build a sense of belonging and community as well as foster positive individual ideals. He answers the question as to whether its better to have a happy life or a meaningful life and why and even what a meaningful life looks life as we grow older. He discusses the power of nature, the importance of leaving your comfort zone, how to break out of a slump and so much more!

From beginning to end, Westover shares wisdom, philosophy, stories and cites sources that educate, inspire and enlighten us towards better understanding A Worthwhile Life!

Michael Westover is a writer, speaker, health care industry executive and graduate of the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. Westover’s website, www.echoesofmeaning.com, is a collection of more than 30 articles about human connection, including articles of family, business, religion, and self-improvement. Many of his pieces attempt to look at ancient truths from new angles to make them applicable to modern life. When he is not writing, you can find him coaching one of his kids’ teams, hiking in the Columbia River Gorge, or wakeboarding when it’s nice outside and snowboarding when it’s not. You can learn more about his work, connect with him and purchase his book, A Worthwhile Life, by visiting him at www.echoesofmeaning.com.

Thank you, amazing Aging Rebels, for listening to the Aging GreatFULLy show! We are proud to be the Listener’s Show and create this show for YOU! If you enjoy this episode, please share it with your friends and family and leave us a positive show review on your favorite platform! We are grateful and love spotlighting listener reviews on air who do! We broadcast to over 170 countries around the world on your favorite platforms! To listen, stream, connect, share, download, subscribe, visit our official host page at or https://www.spreaker.com/show/aging-greatfully-with-gerontologist-holl or to connect with host Holley Kelley visit www.HolleyKelley.com where you can find official #AgingRebels™ Merch, stream Aging GreatFULLy with Holley Kelley© and much more! Always remember, YOU rock and YOU ROLE model!

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
I used to think time was myenemy. My future wasn't looking good.
So worried about the things I couldn'tsee, I couldn't see the things I
could. I was aging fearfully,worrying my life away, when all along

(00:32):
I should have been thankful for everyday. Finally made a friend of time.
Now you could say that I'm aginggratefully, Aging gratefully, broadcasting across

(00:58):
this amazing nation and spanning the universe. You're listening to Aging Gratefully. I'm
your host, Gerontologist Holly Kelly,bringing you exceptional guests and novel information to
ensure you age great, liveful,and embrace each extraordinary day for the incredible
gift it is. We broadcast onall your favorite players brought to you all
over the world. Greetings, mostamazing aging rebels. So happy you're joining

(01:23):
the show today. Welcome one andall around the globe. I hope you're
feeling great today. My wish isthat you are happy to embrace the gift
of today with that beautiful smile onyour face and the spirit of gratitude.
So definitely strike your signature grinfest,pose aging gratefully style, and let your
neuropeptides work their magic mood elixir onyou. Some days we may not be

(01:49):
feeling it, and a smile canfeel like it's oceans away. But those
funks and gunks don't mean we don'tappreciate life. It may simply mean we're
just not feeling it as best aswe could and should. We can be
grateful and still not feel happy,right, of course, I believe so.

(02:10):
Being unhappy, sad, discontent,or disappointed doesn't erase gratitude. Gratitude
is kind of aching to the floorof the ocean. It is there even
if you can't see it. Itexists always, even when those waves come
crashing into our lives, even whenthe sea's turbulent undertow takes you in a

(02:30):
direction you didn't anticipate or desire ornever saw coming. But the calming floor
of the ocean remains faithful, asdoes gratitude. But the great thing about
gratitude is the more you acknowledge it, the more it shows up in your
life. But happiness can be thatway too. However, it doesn't always

(02:52):
feel as easy to find our happy. That doesn't mean we don't want it,
It's just kind of on back order. Or lay away, so to
speak. You are getting to it. You have a plan, it's just
not in your pocket real time.Well, don't get all up in the
seaweed about it. You're not alone. Lots of people find themselves on the
island of the lost, waiting fortheir ship to come in. But what

(03:15):
if you didn't have to be onthe wait list for you're happy? What
if you didn't have to wait foror charter a ship to get to that
shore? I mean, you deserveit right now. So what if you
tapped into your own stockpile of happinessMorgesport and could ride that wave? You

(03:37):
can? Happiness is yours for thetaking, and much like a spring,
bubbling aquifer cascading forth, it's inconstant supply to provide you with a life
full of meaning, where you area proprietor of purpose and caesar of life,
a worthwild life with that. Ilove the quote by Laura Ingalls Wilder

(03:59):
which will make this week's aging gratefullyalphabet suit for the psyche. It is
the simple things of life that makelife worthwhile, the sweet fundamental things such
as love and duty, work andrest and living close to nature. And
this week's aging gratefully show dedication isto the word worthwhile, a spinoff of

(04:21):
the phrase well worth, which meanscertainly worth and worthwhile is an adjective which
means worth the time, money,or effort spent, of value or importance.
Everything about you, Aging rebels isworthwhile. So if you were given
the opportunity to discover the sage wisdomto live a worthwhile life, would you

(04:45):
take it? Well? Today isyour special day because I have the author
of the new and wonderful book justpublished A Worthwhile Life, How to Find
Meaning, Build Connection, and CultivatePurpose by Michael Westover. Now Michael Westover
looked in the mirror himself one dayand wondered what the point of it was.

(05:09):
He had a successful career in healthcare, a stable family, and great
friendships, yet he felt aimless.His life was full meetings to further his
career, hours of television, activitieswith his children, but was it worthwhile?
Digging through centuries of research and theory, Michael set out on a philosophical

(05:31):
journey to find connection and meaning.Why do countless people coast through life as
he had feeling lost and disconnected?Yet others approach each day feeling worthy and
valuable. It turns out that livinga life that matters is simpler than you
may think. Following five types ofcommitment that are research proven to give life

(05:54):
more meaning, we can all builda worthwhile life and avoid the cycle of
distractions. Well, I know youaging rebels are eager to hear more,
so let's bring him on. MichaelWestover is a writer, speaker, healthcare
industry executive, and graduate of theWharton School of Business at the University of
Pennsylvania. Westover's website, Echoes ofMeaning, is a collection of more than

(06:16):
thirty articles about human connection, includingarticles on family, business, religion,
and self improvement. Many of hispieces attempt to look at ancient truths from
new angles to make them applicable tomodern life. A devout reader of psychology,
philosophy, history, and religion,Westover found himself wondering what exactly makes

(06:39):
a life worthwhile and why. Usinghis healthcare expertise, life experience, and
fine tuned analytical skills, Westover embarkedon an investigatory journey into the topics of
meaning and purpose. What he uncoveredsignificantly changed the way he lives his life.
Michael's experiences have taken him all aroundthe world, from a young surfer

(07:02):
in Los Angeles to a missionary inBrazil to a healthcare innovator in Boston.
He is currently a vice president withProvidence Health and Services and writes about the
American healthcare system and patient care inaddition to his work on relationships and meaning.
West Over lives in Washington State withhis wife and five children. He

(07:23):
is dedicated to his business clients andto his local community, all of which
serve as inspiration to living a lifewith meaning. When he's not writing,
you can find him catch coaching oneof his kids teams, hiking in the
Columbia River Gorge, or wakeboarding whenit's nice outside in snowboarding when it's not.

(07:43):
I invite you to learn more abouthim by visiting him at www dot
ethos of meaning dot com. Itis with great pleasures so excited to welcome
you, Michael Westover, to theAging Gratefully Show. Welcome to the show.
Thank you, Holly. It's sogood to be with you. Well,
we are so excited to have youand talk about this amazing book that

(08:05):
you've written. First of all,I love the title A Worthwhile Life,
How to Find Meaning, Build Connectionand cultivate, cultivate purpose. We all
want a worthwhile life, don't we. Yes, And I feel like we
just need it more and more intoday's day and age. I just feel
like there's this dearth of meaning aroundus, you know, this emptiness,

(08:26):
and I feel like we need toknow exactly how to find meaning in our
lives. Well, I really likethat you went and on this kind of
search in quest to uncover answers inancient history. And one might think,
well, how could ancient history helpus in the modern technological world that we

(08:50):
live in today, But that's whatyou did. Yeah, that's true.
I mean so many of the ancients, I mean you think of the ancient
religions and the ancients of realizations.I mean, this has been a question
since the beginning of time, andthere have been many answers throughout the ages.
And I think now we actually havethe benefit of research to kind of

(09:11):
back up what actually does give peoplea sense of meaning and purpose. So
absolutely, yes, And so I'mcurious what led you. We've talked about
your life a little bit in theopening monologue, but why did you dive
into the research and theories, goon this quest and end up you know,

(09:33):
of course writing this great book.What was happening in your life that
piqued your curiosity in this direction?Well, I would say it was during
the COVID times right where you know, there just wasn't that much going on,
and I was watching a lot ofTV, right and I was and
I was going to meetings all day, you know, from my pajamas and
my desk, and I was justthinking to myself, is this ith Like,

(09:58):
is this what life has to offer? Just going to meetings all day
and then watching TV until I fallasleep, Like it just felt like there
should be more to this, AndI just and as I've researched, I've
learned that not having a sense thatyour life is worthwhile is a kind of
pain, right, that each humanbeing that struggles with or can struggle with

(10:18):
during the course of their lives.So I was just coasting, you know,
in a rut, and I justI feel like I needed to break
out of it. And so Istarted studying everything that I could for years
on what makes life meaningful? Ireally think you're ringing the bell of so
many listeners that either have or arecurrently walking in your shoes. And we've

(10:39):
all lived in an unprecedented time andendured things that we could have never envisioned
or saul coming. And a lotof good came out of it, a
lot of introspection and you know,incredible challenges for so many people. And
in your case, I realize thatit was kind of an epiphany moment where

(11:03):
you kind of did some self analyzingand looked at life, and but you
went on this quest instead of justbeing there, you went on this quest
and said that's not okay. Iwant more and I want to understand how
to achieve it exactly. Yes,And I honestly I read through everything that

(11:26):
was there and it just it changedthe way I thought I think about the
world. Right. I just Ifeel like somewhere along the way I picked
up this messaging somewhere that just whatevereveryou do, you can fee you like
it meant Atterson. I just Ifeel like that we'll give people a sense

(11:46):
of meaning and some activities, likein my case, I was watching too
much TV. It just weren't reallyhelping me. And yeah, I think
that there's a lot that people canlearn and really hone in on how to
have a meaningful life. Yes,it's very easy to get in to the
quicksand of mundane where life gets rogueand we think, Okay, well this

(12:07):
is defining our life. But atthe end of the day, that may
be life, but it doesn't meanwe're living. Yes, exactly. I
like that you said you might nothave used this exact word, but coasting
equals pain and I really appreciate thatyou put the spotlight on that, that

(12:30):
you actually gave it a name,you gave it a symptom. Yeah.
I think at every human being needssome kind of purpose, like something to
do and to accomplish. They needto wake up in the morning and have
a hill to climb. And theyalso they need to feel like they matter,
like they need to feel like they'reworthwhile, that their life is valuable.

(12:52):
And until until we have I mean, there are other things we need
to but I feel like that's whatwas missing in my life and what I
need to to go after. Yes, and well, and all of those
things are true. That life doesmatter, and each individual life matters and
can make a difference. You makean interesting distinction. We talk about this

(13:15):
a lot on the show, purposebeing so important, but you make a
distinction between the purpose of life andthe meaning of life. So that's definitely
piquing the curiosity of myself and allof our listeners. Can you describe the
difference? Sure, I'd be happytoo. And I think when we start

(13:35):
talking about the meaning of life,it's really important to define your terms because
if you just say what is themeaning of life? People might be thinking
where did I come from? Andwhere am I going? Like before this
life and after they might be thinking. They might be thinking, how can
I make my life worthwhile? Theymight be thinking, you know, we
need something to accomplish. So Ithink it's really important to define the terms
if you're going to be successful inachieving that thing. And so when it

(13:58):
comes to finding purpose in life,the way the way I had define it
and I is having something to do, you know, something to accomplish,
a goal. You know, itcan be short term, it could be
long term, but just something tochase. And it needs to be a
Goldilocks task, something that's not tooeasy and not too hard, but something
that stretches me a little. That'swhy I think that's right. Yeah,

(14:20):
And then when we think of meaning, it's all about how can I feel
like my life is worthwhile? Howcan I feel like I matter, and
those two things are related, butthey are very different. I mean,
you could you could wake up andhave something to do every day, but
then at the end feel like,you know, what I'm doing doesn't really
matter, and this goal that Iaccomplished, you know, I got through

(14:41):
this entire television series. You know, that was my goal in the morning,
but for some reason, I justfeel like I don't matter. So
they're related, but they're distinct.Very interesting phenomenon there, and kind of
like their cousins and how you canhave you know, something that you're doing,
but yet it doesn't nurture the soul, it doesn't really contribute to our

(15:07):
well being. And so I thinkthat you're really kind of inviting us to
choose activities that you know, bringout and foster or the best in us.
I'm thinking about how some people feelso lonely, but can be surrounded
by a crowd, or be ata party, or be among so many

(15:30):
people that are around them, yetthey still feel alone. It's kind of
like this relationship could go between purposeand meaning if we don't have the goal
and really direction that it's not it'snot actually equaling purpose. Yeah, exactly,

(15:52):
I think there's some really delving intohow can we be around other people
and filming as a fascinating topic thatwe could to delve into a little bit
if you if you like, haveyou experienced that or worked with people that
have? Absolutely, I mean certainlyI've felt that in my own my own
life. I'd think that when itcomes to that introvert extrovert scale, I

(16:14):
kind of lean a little bit moretowards the introverted scale. And I feel
like I've been in times where youjust haven't felt like you've connected with another
individual, where you might be havingthat kind of light cocktail conversation, but
not you feel like you're not reallyconnecting to anyone, that they don't really
care about you, that they don'treally know who you are or know your
name or your face, that theyhaven't really accepted any kind of yeah,

(16:44):
any kind of short term responsibility foryou, and you haven't really accepted any
short term like how can I helpthem miscount? It's kind of like going
through the motions. I call itthe weather conversation, no depth and making
just a trivial conversation. But Ibelieve that a lot of people share that,

(17:04):
And so what else would you liketo say about that, because I
know that that is a huge thing. Particularly I was reading an article of
it just popped in my mind.Sorry to continue on, but I'm going
to see if I can give thisarticle justice. But it was talking it
was actually about grief and how peoplego online to share their state of bereavement

(17:30):
and to share their loss in hopesof that it will bring them comfort.
And the article was actually talking abouthow sharing that online made the individual actually
grieve more. It made them feelworse because they realized that it was just

(17:52):
too easy to pop in and saythinking of you. It was too easy
to pop in and say I'm sosorry for your loss, and that came
in droves. But at the endof the day, when the newness of
that had worn off, they foundthemselves really feeling alone, really in the
depths of despair because real genuine connectionhad never showed up. Yeah, that's

(18:14):
a fascinating article, and honestly,it can happen. It can happen with
people who were really close to aswell. Right. I mean, we
can have family members or children oryou know, cousins and friends, people
that we've known our entire lives whereit can start to feel kind of light
and miss that intimacy and that thatdeep connection where we just we're not sure

(18:36):
that those that we really that thosepeople really care for us, and they're
not really sure that we care forthem. Yes, So what would be
a good way to navigate those feelingsin those situations. Well, one thing
that I feel like we don't talkenough about into this day and age is
taking a specific kind of responsibility forother people. And what I mean by

(19:02):
that is because I mean we reallyare responsile for ourselves. And I'm not
saying that we should take complete responsibilitiesand manage people's lives or take take over
their lives anything like that. Thebrand of responsibility I'm talking about is that
we should look out for other individualsand try to help them, particularly in
areas that they cannot help themselves.I think of a piano teacher kind of

(19:25):
being a good example of this.So like, I could probably learn the
piano by just like plunking away thekeys for several hours every day, But
to have a piano teacher there,someone who knows what I do, not
help guide me alone, and canbe incredibly useful in making people feel like
they matter. Everyone has gaps,right, We're all social and animals,

(19:45):
I mean social creatures. I havegaps and weaknesses, and I'm so glad
there are people around me that canhelp me, kind of lift me up
and help and teach me those thingsthat I don't know and kind of carry
me along when I fall short andwhen i'm offering. And so when it
comes to getting over that loneliness andhelping other people feel like they matter,

(20:06):
I feel like knowing people enough toknow what their issues are and how you
can take just a little bit ofresponsibility for them to make their day a
little bit better will make you feellike you matter, right, Because if
you're taking care of another individual who'sstruggling, that person must clearly matter.
If you're willing to sacrifice just alittle bit for them and you're able to

(20:26):
help them in some small way,you must matter, right. And then
when you've helped that individual in somesmall way, just brighten their day and
really try to get to know them, they're going to reciprocate very often,
not always, but they're going toreciprocate and take care of you. And
then you've made a real connection.Right then you're not just lonely in a
crowded room, like now you've connectedwith someone and I don't know you really

(20:49):
you're one, You're unified, likeyou are connected, bound joined. It's
so important, you know, it'skind of life. We start the show
always with a smile, and howthat smile just maybe something that is it
just feels like a process or anact that we do, maybe something symbolic,

(21:12):
but it actually is providing chemical changes. And it's like this I call
it the you know, neural elixirthat actually changes things, much like these
connections that you're speaking of and helpingothers. When we actually go through the

(21:32):
motions of doing these things, ithas a positive effect, of course on
the individual that we're reaching out toor connecting with, as well as ourselves.
It's kind of like putting a mirroron their blind spot, helping that
person where they need it, findingtheir blind spot, and you you know,
being able to kind of put someputty in there for them and help

(21:56):
them out. So I just reallyappreciate that you're unearthing this in your work
because I feel like, you know, we have a lot of parts of
society and aspects of society that arevery removed, you know, I think
of the Walt Engin when everybody wasliving together under one roof. Now we

(22:17):
see so much, you know,living geographically somewhere else, and so the
connections have really kind of taken ahit as modern society has evolved. Yeah,
I feel that strongly here. AndI didn't learn this later to life,
actually that I followed my career around, you know exact, lived in

(22:41):
Utah, and I've lived in Bostonand Philadelphia and Connecticut and Oregon and now
Washington, and I didn't appreciate theimportance of building a stable community where I
know people's names and they know me, and we've had that time to build
each other's build trust in each other. And now I feel like I'm trying
to catch up. And my kidslet me know when i've kind i've severed

(23:04):
those connections how painful it is forthem too. So I've really I value
the community so much more than Ihave in the past. Yes, it's
very important, and you're not justlike putting advice out there. You've actually
lived it, experienced it, andyou know you have journeyed that yourself personally.

(23:29):
So I just really think it's greathow you're sharing this vision that has
just so much impacted your personal lifeand how you have turned it around to
create this great book, A Worthwhilewife, how to find meaning, built
connection, and cultivate purpose. SoI'm wondering is it better to have a

(23:52):
happy life or a meaningful life?Because I mean aging rebels one at all,
But which is better? That's thatis a very good question. When
when it comes to happiness, Ifeel like during the course of my life,
every couple of years, I'll hearanother definition of happiness and I'll think,
ooh, that's what happiness really means. Like someone will say being in

(24:15):
that flow state where you completely loseyourself in a task, and that's happiness,
and like, okay, that Ilove that definition. And someone will
say, well, actually, happinessis a you know, an absence of
pain. I'm like, oh,that that definition sounds really good. Or
happiness is cheerfulness. We have thisoutward state of happiness where people perceive you
as being happy. I'm like,well, that that sounds nice too.

(24:37):
Or maybe it's a having more positiveemotions than negative, or maybe it's evaluating
your entire life from an end toend and saying I am a happy individual.
And what I realized is that happinessis not one thing. It's a
bunch of different concepts that are relatedin some way. But I mean,
I feel like that that happiness wordis kind of overburdened with meetings. And

(25:00):
you could actually say meaningfulness or havinga sense that your life is worthwhile is
another way that people might define happiness. So what I think is really important
for me is I listed out allof these definitions of happiness and I started
to look at them, and I'mlike, Okay, maybe it which definitions

(25:21):
of happiness are the most important tome? Like? Is it being cheerful?
Is it never feeling pain? Isit that I can have a meaningful
life, that I can have purpose? Like what is the thing one of
the things that really matter to me? And I kind of and I think
it's a helpful exercise friend of peopletoo. And what I found is when
the definitions of happiness or the flavorsof happiness that I really want my life

(25:42):
is I want my life to matter. I want something. I want to
have something to do and something toaccomplish. You know, I want to
have a strong like I want tofeel like you know, I believe in
God. I feel like God.You know that if I have a strong
connection with him and he's pleased withme. That kind of definition of happy
and this matters a lot. Andthere's actually my definitions of happiness and the

(26:04):
top definitions for me. I canactually have some pain in my life and
still feel like I'm a very happyindividual. I love it when pleasure comes
in and I will embrace it wheneverthat butterfly lances on my shoulder, the
pleasure butterfly. But really I canfeel like I have happiness and that I
have purpose, that I have meaningwith some pain. I love that because

(26:26):
I was speaking in the opening abouthow we can have gratitude and regardless of
what's going on, and so youcan be you know, struggling through the
storm of life, but still youknow, have gratitude deep down in there
existing because there's you know, there'salways something to be grateful for. I
like how you've multiple choice are happy? So aging rebels, you know,

(26:49):
pick you're happy? One answer isnot necessarily you don't have to pick one.
You can have multiple. So Ithink that's really cool. I was
hoping, Michael on the other sideof break, if we could talk about
you know, you talk about thatsage wisdom that came to you over the
years. What does a meaningful lifelook like as we grow older? And

(27:14):
I was hoping that we could kindof talk about that. Yeah, well,
and this is one anywhere I wouldlove to hear your expertise experience too,
because I mean, you're you're inthe thick of it every day.
Thank you. Okay, So onthe other side of break, let's let's
unearth that a little bit and seewhere it takes us. Right, great,
don't go anywhere, because this fantasticconversation will continue today. We're grateful

(27:37):
to be with Michael Westover talking allthings that make life worthwhile and his book
A Worthwhile Life, How to FindMeaning, build connections, and cultivate purpose.
You can learn more about him byvisiting him at www dot Echoes of
Meaning dot com. By the way, I know you out there love our
show's theme song for new listeners thatJim Beloff's aging Gratefully. Yes, it's

(28:02):
one of my favorite songs in theentire world. You know, I'm guilty
as charts. You can find thatsong and put it on your playlist on
iTunes or Amazon Music, and it'sin his album. The album's called Dreams.
I left in pockets and he isa world renowned musician. He is
famous in Japan in so many places. He has written the most coveted,

(28:26):
used, sold ukulele books and musicbooks and everything else in the world.
So check that out at flea marketmusicdot com. He can have you play
in the ukulele really quick, andthat might be something to give life purpose
and passion and meaning is to takeup a ukulele. Play that, So

(28:49):
go check out his amazing books specialThanks to you out there, Aging rebels
tuning in all over the world.We really appreciate how you have been sharing
this show with your friends and familyand you have made us a top three
show on aging. Thank you betSpot for recognizing us in the lineup of
one hundred top aging shows. We'reproud to be the third in your ranking

(29:11):
and that you should listen and subscribeto. If you like this episode,
please leave us a positive show review. And I love it when you talk
about our amazing guests and they dotoo. Let them know what you think
and how you feel about the wonderfulcontent that they share with us. I
haven't told you since the last timewe were together my truth, and that
is that you rock and you rolemodel, and I'm grateful for each of

(29:34):
you. I'm your host, gerontologistHolly Kelly, and will be right back.
Hi. I'm TLFO, founder anddirector of Wolf Connection in California,
an author of The Wolf Connection.Of What Wolf can teach us about being

(29:55):
human in the Holly Show is absolutelyincredible. This hands down one of the
best interviews energy enthusiasm. Her passionfor people, from nature, for animals
is heartwarming. So I'm very gratefuland honored to be one of Sunrises and

(30:18):
Sunsets. Final Affair is Forged withflair, finesse, and functionality is a
delightful book for every adult of anyage and any stage. This multi award
winning book, written by gerontologist HollyKelly, is a soul soothing journey and
novel approach to completing your personal affairsand advanced care planning. Readers are calling
it transformative, life changing and fun. Prepare, lovingly, plan, thoughtfully,

(30:44):
Live dynamically. Available on Amazon andmost bookstores. Author autographed copies aren't
available at Sunrises and sunsetsbook dot com, where you can subscribe, register for
a workshop, and more. Hi. I'm Annie Anderson, author of Find

(31:11):
your soul's agenda, and I thinkthat Holly Kelly's Aging Gratefully is such a
wonderful show and we should all listento it to learn how to never act
our age. Thank you so much, best listeners in the world. Welcome
back to Aging Gratefully. I'm yourhost. Youreontologist Holly Kelly here today with

(31:34):
our guest Michael Westover, who promotesliving life full of meaning, worth,
purpose and passion for well celebrated living. And I know you my awesome aging
rebels are all about that. Sohappy to have them with us today.
And before we resume our conversation,I want to give this week's listener appreciation

(31:56):
shout out to an Apple listener fromAustria. Love that you are listening to
us from so many places around theworld. Hello Austria, we love you,
who gave us five stars and wroteI really like this podcast. Very
interesting and high profile guests and Hollyasked poignant questions that lead to a deep

(32:16):
understanding of the topics presented. Ihighly recommend it to everyone interested in aging
gracefully. Well. Thank you somuch. We love aging gracefully and gratefully
and gratefully in both ways. Thatit's spelled. We really really appreciate you

(32:36):
listening to us around the world,and we just we trend in some places
that I'm like, oh my goodness, it's just so amazing that we're reaching
you and our messages resonate. Youknow what else we're grateful for is today's
guess. I'm loving this conversation.I know you are to visit him at
Echoes of Meaning dot com, whereyou can learn more about his life enhancing

(33:00):
work in so many areas, includingI don't know kind of what we've been
talking about, how to get outof a gunk, a funk, or
a slump and build a life thatmatters. You can get his book there.
There's a link right to his book, A Worthwhile Life. You can
read articles that he has their subscribefor weekly inspirations He inspires much like this

(33:24):
show. I know you love InspirationsAging Rebels because you listen to this podcast
and so much more to connect withhim, So visit him at Echoes of
Meaning dot com. So well,Michael, you know, we don't start
out with all the knowledge we endup with. So what does a meaningful
life look like as we grow older? Yeah? So I don't know about

(33:54):
your experience, but mine is thatlikes you have our you have your responsibilities.
Maybe you have children, maybe youhave a career, maybe you have
you know, community, maybe you'recoaching, you have the people that you're
out helping in the world, andyour relationship with those people. It changes
all the time. Like I havemy children right right, maybe there's one

(34:15):
phase and one child where I feellike I'm just nailing it, everything's going
well or connecting, I'm able tohelp this child, and then the child
comes to another phase and I don'tknow, and it's a whole new ball
game. Feel like it's often likethat in many parts of our lives when
it comes to aging with meaning,certain times we have what I call responsibility

(34:37):
shocks, where a responsibility, youknow, there's something that you're doing and
it's just taken away from you.And maybe it's an individual who passes away
who's in your life, or youknow, you lose your job or your
attire, or you have to sella company. I mean, there are
million little ways that your responsibilities,those things that give you something to do
every day and it make you feellike your life matters, that they disappear,

(34:58):
and then I think it makes uschange the way that we approach the
world, and like it gives thisopportunity to take new kinds of responsibility or
change the way that we approach thoseresponsibilities and learn and grow in what we
do. So I mean I andoftentimes as we age. I know it's

(35:19):
my experience that as I'm younger,I had more physical abilities, so more
physical stamina. And then as Igrow older, I feel like in some
ways I have a little bit moretime, and I have a little bit
bit more knowledge, and I feellike I have a little bit more caring
and empathy. So I just havedifferent gifts that I can give the world
throughout them throughout the course of mylife. Yes, the roller coaster of

(35:42):
life is real. We just neverknow when we're going to end up on
that loop de loop right, alwayschanging. So I agree, and I
you know, one of the reasonsI felt that your work was so important
and could speak to so many peopleis you know, we know that we

(36:04):
want a meaningful life, you know, throughout our life course, we want
this for our children, we wantthis for our loved ones. My goodness,
we'd really like it for everybody,because when you have a life full
of meaning. I do think thatyou become happier and that generosity of spirit
just swells up and it's contagious.So we would have a wonderful life if

(36:31):
we would have a wonderful world ifin fact everybody were able to, you
know, build that meaningful life.So one thing I think that I like
is that you acknowledged it. Andso many people out there are acknowledging it
themselves in their life. They're seeingthat, you know, it's kind of

(36:53):
like happiness is looking like a desertfor them. How would you say,
buddy, in later life would beginto uncover their worthwhile life, their meaning,
their connection building and ways to cultivatepurpose. Yeah, I think this

(37:16):
is a really this is the foundationalquestion, right, like what exactly can
I do? And I think thefirst the first big learning for me was
that everybody, everybody goes through pain, right, everybody struggles with something.
Everybody has appen And I think it'stempting to say, you know, I
will as soon as I take careof myself, then I'm going to reach

(37:38):
out and help another person. ButI feel like there's always just one difficulty
after another, right, So ata certain point, even though we're struggling.
We need to think through if wereally want a meaningful life, if
we want to feel like we matter. The idea is that you need to
go out and help someone another person, take a tiny amount of response for

(38:00):
another human being, not too much, I mean, don't go crazy,
but take a little bit of responsibilityfor another human being, and then and
go after it. I think it'sworthwhile to think about what do I have
to offer in the world. Everybodyhas something. Maybe it's time, maybe
it's caring. Maybe it's no knowledgethat you can share with the world.

(38:25):
Look for opportunities to make a commitmentaround that thing. I mean, I'll
give you the example of I rememberone time my spouse signed me up to
be coach a t ball team.And I'm not a huge baseball fan.
I don't follow baseball, and everyonewas really busy in my job and I
just thought, I don't have timeto do this. It was a really

(38:45):
stressful home for me. I don'tknow how to be a t ball coach.
I don't know how to do it. And then I just my son
came up to me and said,like, I'd love for you to coach
me. I mean, just brokeme down. I'm like, fine,
I'll do it. And I wassure I was laid a couple of parts
to be coach, But it wassuch a magical experience at the end,
just watching those little kids hit thatball and run off in the wrong direction.

(39:05):
I mean, they're adorable and they'reso excited to go and play,
and I feel like it just mademy life better, even though I was
worried about taking on a little ofthat responsibility and ended up being a really
excellent experience in my life. Yes, to kind of get at the really
edge of your comfort zone and takethat leap of faith and see what shows

(39:28):
up. We get so cozy inour you know, our normal way of
living that it's often hard for usto break that cycle. And I like
how you mentioned little ways that wecan do it. I you know,
I like to bake, and youknow, I think that, you know,

(39:51):
we pretty good around here, andso I often try to make extra
and I know that there's people thatlive around me that it's hard to cook,
you know, for a small amountof people for one or two,
and so I always pack up,you know, a special meal and take
that by. And there's little waysthat we can make differences in people's lives,

(40:17):
bring other people joy, and ofcourse it makes me happy to be
able to do those things. Andso it doesn't have to be grandiose,
it doesn't have to be monumental.It just has to be I couldnt agree
more on that. And you,honestly, it sounds like you're a good
person to be friends with and thankyou. Well, we're friends with you,

(40:40):
and you're a good person to befriends with. Two thank you.
But I'm interested in how I mean. I feel like there's that moment when
your neighbor remembers your name and callsout to you and says, hey,
Michael, how's it going. Ifeel like that is the moment that you
belong to a community. When youfeel like there's a mentor, or your

(41:00):
supervisor at work says, like yourealize that this person actually cares whether you
live or die. I feel likethat's the moment you belong to a company.
I feel like when you're when youruncle or aunt comes to you and
says, you can tell this person'sreally looking out for you. I feel
like that's or it could be aparent or a sibling. I feel like
that's the moment that you belong toa family, when someone cares enough to

(41:23):
just learn your name right and bewilling to just smile at you. Even
someone running as I'm going out ormy daily run smiles at me across my
job like they've taken a moment totake care of me for just a second.
I feel like that matters, yes, And I think that you've uncovered
so many different ways that we canjust get out of our own little world

(41:49):
and make those connections. I thinkthat you know, neighborhoods aren't what they
used to be. The workplace isn'twhat it used to be. Life is
not the way it used to be. And we all knew our neighbors growing
up. When I was a kid, I could literally recite the entire block
and what their parents did. Andyou know, it just does very,

(42:10):
very different because people live next topeople these days and don't know them,
and you know, everybody's in theirown lane. And I think there's a
time to be in your lane,Like when you're focused on work and you're
like, oh my goodness, somany things are like confusing this project and
you know, I'm a believer,and just remember why you started it and

(42:34):
stay in your lane. There's anothertime for us to like, you know,
really take a detour and invite someother opportunities into our life. So
I love that. What do youfeel are some of the most commonly cited
sources of meaning in people's lives?Yeah, well, there's been a lot

(43:00):
of research on this topic and there'ssome there's certain themes that just keep coming
out, and I think some ofthem are obvious, some of them are
are less obvious. But the numberone source of meaning in people's lives and
his family m like twice as muchas the next one. Um, I

(43:25):
think about I think about people's twochildren, two cousins and uncles. It's
yeah, sorry to interrupt. Iwas thinking about people, um that a
lot of their their family is verysmall, or they live away from family,
or they're the last one we're remaining. I mean we have you know,

(43:45):
I know that my papa is likejust watched his siblings one by one
pass away, and so you know, they're down to like three now out
of you know what started with likeeight. I am agin that all of
these things are very challenging when youtalk about the research and family being so
important exactly. Yeah. On thepositive side of that, that there's been

(44:10):
a lot of research, and peopleleaving their jobs has been as a major
responsibility shock, right, that tendsto be difficult for many people as well,
and losing family members the job isanother good source the meaning. But
the research has also shown that whereyou if you lose where you lose responsibilities
in one area, you can takeon responsibilities than another. And as long

(44:34):
as you can do that, youcan find replacements for meaning that and you
can't replace an individual of course,Like there's there's no way, you know,
the people I love in my lifethat can ever be replaced. But
there are other things that I coulddo, you know, Like there's strong
research around have pets giving people asense of meaning or working in a garden.
You know, it's all of thistaking a little bit of responsibility for

(44:55):
doing things for a pet that thepet cannot do for or itself. Right,
Um, that can that can helppeople through those difficult transition periods.
So there's not just one path likeit's family or nothing. It's you know,
family is a really good way.Friends are a good way, Pets
are a good way, Community commitmentsare a really good way. Jobs are

(45:19):
an excellent way to find meaning.There are many different types of responsibility and
commitments that you can make. I'mso glad that you addressed all of those
different opportunities for meaning. I thinkthat you know a lot of people say,
you know, I saved a pet. Uh, you know, I
adopted, But the reality is theyalways follow up with and this pet saved

(45:43):
me. So just so much umtherapeutic U in therapeutic outcomes, in the
relationship that we have. You alsotalk about nature. Let's talk about the
value of nature. So UM.I love nature. So I think you

(46:06):
mentioned that I like hiking in theColumbia Courge and there's just you know,
this grassy value that I'm running through. And the other day I saw two
coyotes kind of playing in a fieldand it's just like you stop at it
and you're it is amazing you Justyou feel like you're in the presence of
something bigger than yourself when you're innature. So what nature I think gives

(46:30):
you is this can It can leadyou to feel like you are smaller compared
to something bigger than you. Itgives you a sense of awe that you
just sit there and you're astounded bya sunset or something like that, or
like I mentioned those two coyotes playingin the field, and I feel like
that feelings small relative to something greaterthan you. There's there's some benefits that

(46:54):
show up in the research from thatawe. That awe makes it feel like
you're that your problems are smaller thanthey might have been a moment ago.
Like the things that you're struggling with, maybe they're not so such a big
deal, and maybe there are otherthings outside of you that are incredibly important.
I think that can add to yourlife, like maybe, and it
can kind of shine a light onother people's needs and other people that you

(47:17):
can help to. So that senseof awe and nature can make your sense
of self shrink a little bit andlook and help shine a light on opportunities
around you. And I think it'sjust a way to make yourself like happier,
right, give a better sense ofwell being. It's a little different
from the responsibility I was talking about, that can still be a really helpful

(47:37):
way to decrease that kind of youknow, that that all encompassing sense of
self that can be debilitating to happiness. Yes, and you also kind of
put the spotlight on spirituality religion inthe roles that these can play in someone's

(47:58):
life. Can you expand on that? Yeah, I'd be happy too.
So, I mean, religions hasbeen around since you know, we've humans
have recorded anything right around since thedawn time. And I think one of
the reasons why religions are so helpfulto people is because religions are meaning m

(48:27):
and they give us meaning. Yeah, so you religions do some things that
do an excellent way of just givingpeople responsibility. If you think about it,
they say the individuals say, I'mresponsible for God, for God's work,
and God is actually going to takeresponsibility for me in some way.
Right, You're going to help meout, and I'm going to help God's
work. People who are religious,they tend to look outward and help people

(48:52):
in their community. And you know, some religions might talk about missionary work
as a way to help other people, or some might just talk about service.
All religions have this kind of externalview. They also they talk about
how to help members of the community. They tend to have like rituals that
bind people together, you know,like you can think of marriage as an

(49:13):
example, or a baptism or somethinglike that, where people are kind of
binding themselves to other individuals and sayinglike I'm going to help We're going to
help each other mutually. And there'sthat binding to God too, And it
also gives that sense of belonging,right, you belong to a community within
that religion, and do you feellike you belong to God and God's family
and then your own family it creates. So they're all of these fascinating connections

(49:37):
within religion that I think give peoplea very deep sense, deep sense of
meaning. Yes, I totally agree. And just having that those roots down
can kind of keep you in inline with your goals and what you want

(49:58):
your life to be, like,you know, it kind of checks you
at the door as well. Asidefrom the relationship is just you know,
abiding by whatever your individual beliefs mightbe. Um, we live in a
technoin. I'm sorry, go ahead. That's such a good point about that.
They also teach you know, likethat kind of um some outward focus

(50:19):
and teaching the importance of those thingsthat give people meaning, like you know,
family and community and um, youknow, hard work. That religion
tend to teach those things that bindpeople and give them a sense of meeting.
So I just I think that they'revery much the meaning factories, and
I think that you could also lookat them for individuals through arts religious in
nature to just think about, arethere ways that I need to create my

(50:43):
own community right that I need tocreate maybe a connection to God that I
need to create. Um, youknow the rituals that bind me. To
help other people to think about whatare ways that they could do that too?
Yes, um, and very goodadvice. I think it's about,
you know, just finding your tribeand and you might not find it,

(51:06):
you may have to build it,you may have to recruit. I know
my wife during Um, you knowthat my wife has actually gone out to
the neighborhood and said, we can'tkid my child can't do soccer, so
let's just set up a neighborhood soccerleague, right, or she'll invite people
over to have dinner at our homefrom the neighborhood. And actually we've been

(51:28):
able to create not for me,I mean this is very much My wife
and a couple of our neighbors havecreated this fantastic community where we know each
other's names, and you know,the kids do little plays together, and
I feel like it doesn't have tobe a neighborhood. But there are lots
of them online communities where you cancreate a tribe and you can help other
people, hopefully without becoming tribe bullyou know, where you're attacking external groups.

(51:51):
That we can create a tribe ofpeople that we can connect with and
take we can't take care of eachother. We need that as social creatures.
Totally a soft place to land andbe achin too. I guess our
forefeathers, barn raisings that they woulddo just definitely all happiness makers. So
we live in a technological world.You and I probably know both worlds,

(52:16):
but kids today that are you know, more recently born, they only know
one world and the world is very, very different. I'm really happy that
I know both, and that Iknow what it's like to have that phone
tethered to the wall and miss thatcall and even more so not even know

(52:37):
that the phone ever rang. Iknow those days. You know those days.
But we have advances like you talkabout chat GPT, how they impact
people's since that their lives are worthwhile. First of all, I'm sure some
listeners are seeing that term but don'tknow what chat GPT is. What is

(52:58):
that? So Chad GBT is anartificial intelligence TOOLUM that answers questions for you.
You can ask it any any questionyou could. I actually asked it
what is the meaning of meaning oflife? And it is an artificial intelligence
that writes an answer, you know, three paragraph essay for you in about

(53:21):
it. It actually intelligence artificial intelligenceeigens that I have seen. I know
there's functionally like that in being.And so as technology increases and it starts
to do many things for us,I think the question is like, how
does that impact how we have meaninglife? Right? I think we saw
in decades past many of the manufacturingjobs being automated, and I think now

(53:45):
we're going to see other types ofyou know, traditionally white color jobs like
writing, um, you know,writing memos and writing papers and essays.
Things like that are going to beautomated too, And you know, creating
visualizations, all that's going to beautomated too. And so the question is
if I can't be of use,if there are fewer things that I can

(54:07):
do to be useful because robots aredoing them for me, how can I
feel like my life is worthwhile?I think that's a fascinating thing that we're
going to have to struggle with becausetechnology gives us comfort in some ways,
and like it solves problems for us. I love technology, and put it
also takes away opportunities for us todo things that we could to help people

(54:29):
around this right because the technology cando it for us. So I think
it's a fascinating area of research.I think it's new and there are a
lot of things we're just kind ofstruggling with. I think there's some questions
about what can technology really do.My personal belief is that I don't think
technology will be able to replace humanrelationships. I think that as advanced as

(54:50):
the technology gets, still as humanswill need to help each other progress and
like ey as and individuals will stillhave gaps, so I'll need to progress
and I'll still need to have thoseconnections with other people. So I just
think it's a really interesting place toponder. I absolutely agree. I think
that the key with so many thingsin life is balance. We know that

(55:14):
technology has provided so many different opportunitiesfor older adults to be able to remain
independent through assyste of technology and allthe various products that you know lead to
an easier life to navigate. Andyet if we completely go overboard. Then

(55:37):
you know we've it's at a sacrifice, and I'm really glad that you've woven
this into your work because it comesdown to being extremely mindful in having those
boundaries and self awareness of where we'reat on that you know, string of
different technological advances. Yeah, it'sreally interesting to me they've event there's some

(56:01):
great research by looking at how differentcultures feel like their lives are meaningful.
And it's interesting that the kind ofWestern cultures that are very advanced technologically have
a if you look at an aggregate, not at the individual level, but
there's a much larger percentage of folkswho feel like their lives are less meaningful.

(56:22):
And if you look at the poorestnations in the world, they tend
to have a nearly one hundred percentof people feel like they are incredibly needed
and that their lives are very areworthwhile, Like they know that if they're
not the individuals in these countries,that they're not working hard for their families,
that their families will suffer. SoI think it's our nations in the

(56:43):
Western and the West tend to focusso much on creating comfort and wealth that
I feel like sometimes they forget aboutwhat are the things that our nations need
to do to create meaning? Whatare the things we need to just make
sure that each of us has somerespon multibility in our lives, that people
feel like you know that they're thatsomeone is looking out for them and they're

(57:05):
looking out for us. And wecan't focus too much on comfort and wealth
at the expense of meaning and purpose. M definitely well. Great words of
wisdom spoken by the author of AWorthwhile Life, So a lot between the
pages there. What was your goalfor readers as we wind down our time

(57:27):
together in what you have provided inthis book A Worthwhile Life? How to
find meaning, build connection, andcultivate purpose. Yeah, I feel like
there's this undercurrent today that just sayslife has no meaning, it's not worthwhile,
or just bags of meat today havefloating through the universe. Right in
seven years, everyone will forget it, forget your name. And I think

(57:49):
this book is a say like,no, that is not true. In
the data, everyone who has achild or a pet or garden knows that
they can be helpful and knows thatlife can have meeting or a moment.
For many moments, drum together foryour entire life, that your life can
matter and that you matter. That'sthe purpose of the book. It's just

(58:12):
let people know that they matter andif they're worried about it, they feel
like it could matter more to givethem a pathway way of loan actually will
work in the data to get youthere. So awesome. Well, the
world needs your work and this book, and so I would say accept the
invitation aging Revels visit author Michael Westoverat Echoes of meeting dot com, where

(58:40):
there's a link right to the bookthat you can get. And I just
really appreciate work that kind of elevatesthe human spirit and very self help oriented.
And I feel that this is justreally great stuff that you've brought to
the world. Thank you for thegems that you continue to share. And

(59:04):
we just really appreciate the time thatwe've had with you today. No,
I appreciate you at this time andthe work that you're doing too. It's
been great. Thank you so much. So we can't have the time end
without knowing how you age. Gratefully. Yes, I feel like my life's
I'm just so grateful for all ofthe people and experiences that I've had in

(59:27):
my life. I feel like I'vespent many of much of my youth learning
and growing and you know, gettingcertifications and schools that I just I want
to spend you know the rest ofmy life, you know, doing what
I can to like take those thosethings that I've that I've learned and I
still have many gaps, and tryingto help those around me, you know,

(59:49):
try to share, you know,my my strength, my time,
anything that I've known along the wayto help help those around me wonderfully articular
and we know that you will.So that's awesome. So thank you again
for the time and the work.Listeners, The book is Worthwhile Life,
How to find meaning, build connection, and cultivate purpose And catch up with

(01:00:13):
Michael at Echoes of Meaning dot com. You've been listening to Aging Gratefully and
I'm your host your intelligence Holly Kelly. Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoy our message, Iinvite you to subscribe and share it
with others. May you remember tonever act your age and that age is
just a number. And may youenjoy and embrace the coming week in the
spirit of gratitude. Until we meetagain, here's to living your best life

(01:00:39):
now. I used to think timewas my enemy. My future wasn't looking
good, so worried about the thingas I couldn't see, I couldn't see

(01:01:04):
the things I could. I wasaging, fearfully, worrying my life away,
when all along I should have beenthankful for every day. Finally made
a friend of time. Now youcould say that I'm aging gratefully, Aging gratefully