May 10, 2024 • 43 mins
With her latest book, "Sassy & Rude: Her New Attitude," Dr. Mandel offers a roadmap for navigating the tumultuous waters of familial dynamics, particularly between mothers and their adult daughters.
Drawing from decades of experience in psychology and counseling, Dr. Mandel delves deep into the complexities of these relationships, addressing common challenges such as communication breakdowns, power struggles, and unresolved conflicts. Through poignant anecdotes, practical exercises, and insightful strategies, she provides a path toward healing and reconciliation for both mothers and daughters.
From debunking misconceptions to addressing the unique challenges posed by the recent pandemic, Dr. Mandel's expertise shines through as she offers invaluable guidance to listeners seeking to mend fractured bonds and cultivate healthier connections within their families.
Join us as we uncover the truth behind mother-daughter dynamics and embark on a journey toward healing, understanding, and renewed love and respect.
Drawing from decades of experience in psychology and counseling, Dr. Mandel delves deep into the complexities of these relationships, addressing common challenges such as communication breakdowns, power struggles, and unresolved conflicts. Through poignant anecdotes, practical exercises, and insightful strategies, she provides a path toward healing and reconciliation for both mothers and daughters.
From debunking misconceptions to addressing the unique challenges posed by the recent pandemic, Dr. Mandel's expertise shines through as she offers invaluable guidance to listeners seeking to mend fractured bonds and cultivate healthier connections within their families.
Join us as we uncover the truth behind mother-daughter dynamics and embark on a journey toward healing, understanding, and renewed love and respect.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Thank you for joining us, andwelcome to another edition of Answers Network.
I'm your host, Alan Cardoza.Now today we're going to be unveiling the
untold stories of mother daughter trauma andso much more. Joining us is nationally
renowned psychologist and author of five publishedbooks, Sasse and Rude, her newest
(00:28):
one which is Her New Attitude,Don't call Me a Drama Queen, Dump
that chump, Your boss is notyour mother, and Healing the Sensitive Heart.
Doctor Deborah Mandel aka the Love Wire, has over thirty years experience,
specializing in helping individuals, couples,and families learn how to thrive in their
(00:51):
relationships. Now, if doctor Deborah'sname sounds familiar, it's no wonder.
She's appeared on hundreds of national TVand radio shows, including Raising Sex Tuplets,
which I didn't see that one,but I have seen a few of
them, Love Handles, Tyra Banks, The Today Show, The Early Show,
(01:11):
and she's been regularly featured expert onCNN Headline News, The O'Reilly Factory,
and Inside Edition, and is frequentlysought out by journalists and reporters for
expertise in numerous areas, and shealso co hosted her own radio show on
this same network, the Doctor Deborahand Therapist Kelly Show, and she during
(01:36):
that time she was accumulated over amillion listeners. So I am so thankful
to have her on here. SoDoctor Debrah, welcome to Answers Network.
Thank you. I think we shouldjust stop here. That sounded so impressive.
I don't think I opened my mouthafter that. Well, you know,
(01:59):
it's it's one of those things thatI was thinking about it, and
I said, first of all,I can't believe that you haven't been on
the show before, because there's somany great subjects. It's such a great
fit. But I love the factthat we're starting with now with your latest
book, Sassy and Rude, herNew Attitude, So let's talk about that
(02:20):
one. But at the same time, we've got some We've already have some
listener questions that have come in,which I think is great. But there's
some of the other things I'd loveto touch on too, and things that
we can talk about, things thatare going on today. But starting with
Sassy and Rude, how'd you comeup with that name? Well? Can
(02:40):
I tell you the original title?Please? Why is she such a bitch?
And who recommended you change it.The publisher did not want that.
It was a Spanish publisher with theirfirst year of imprinting in the US,
and they just said no. Theeditor loved it, was very excited about
(03:05):
the title. I wrote that ActuallyI wrote this proposal for this book about
thirteen years ago. Wow. AndI'll tell you a little funny story about
this. So two years ago,I was in the hospital for a paper
cut that went rogue, literally wentroad like. My hands swelled up like
a baseball bit. And I'm allergicto all kinds of antibiotics, so it
(03:30):
was just a very it was ahorrible moment. I'm in the hospital bed
with hooked up in these ivs withantibiotics and all this stuff. When I
get an email from my agent,who I hadn't talked to for years because
this is a long time since I'vehad a published book, and she says,
I have a publisher interested in yourbook proposal. Why is she such
(03:53):
a bit from like thirteen years ago. I'm like, oh, you kidding
me? Well, blessings come whenyou're in the hospital. I'm thinking I'm
going to die from septis septis Andhere we are, Okay, great.
So that's how it went off andrunning. But I did write this book
along the proposal a long time agowhen I was having a struggle with my
(04:13):
own daughter. So I don't knowwhere you want to start, but I
can get into a little bit ofmy own history. And you absolutely well
though, that's exactly where I wasgoing to go is is and I didn't
know that it was thirteen years ago. But in some of the things that
I had researched myself that you know, there is some examples that you have
from your own life. So let'sstart with sharing those things. Yeah,
(04:36):
So my parents were both immigrants.My father was from Poland and a Holocaust
survivor. My mother was from Estoniaand she was Estonia became part of Russia
and they left there and went toSweden, and my mom made it to
Canada. My mom was much youngerthan my father. They marry in Canada
(05:00):
and when they came to the States, the joke was they spoke eleven languages
between the two of them, butnone of them English. So it was
that kind of family, right.They were struggling, they were trying to
make do. My father ended upbasically starting car wash businesses and made a
great success for himself. I thinkmy mom was a little bit thwarted in
(05:25):
her life. She was a modelin Canada, a very beautiful woman,
very stoic, smart, very stubborn. I take some of that from her.
And she was a young mom,and I don't know that she really
wanted to have that role in herlife. Quite frankly, I think she
gave up a lot to be amom, and I think she had a
(05:46):
lot of resentment and anger and shejust wasn't something that you would talk about
at that time. So when shedecided, when they decided to have children,
he just raised us with a veryheavy hand. She was very she
was very loving in her heart,but he didn't feel very loved. You
know. It was one of thosewhere you get a's why are they not
(06:06):
a pluses? Did you clean yourroom? It's not perfect enough. You
leave a glass on the table.Oh my goodness, you're going to the
bathroom, the glass is gone,and then you're punished because you left the
glass on the table. That kindof thing. So I did not feel
very loved. And I was oneof those super sensitive little girls where I
wanted the cuddles, I wanted thehugs. I wanted the contact. I
(06:27):
wanted, you know, to kindof like snuggle up in my mom's arms,
but she just wasn't that kind ofmom. So it was tough for
me. And at that time,I said, oh, if I'm going
to have kids, I am definitelygoing to do the opposite, which is
a mistake that many parents make,is I'm going to do the pendulum swing.
I'm going to go completely the oppositeof what I got. So that's
kind of how it all started.It really inspired me. My mom died
(06:49):
very young. She was only fiftyeight, and so I was just barely
had my own daughter at that time, so she never got to be a
grandma to my child and we missedout on a lot. And in the
last of her final days, shewas angry with me because I was actually
trying to get her help. Iwas already a psychologist. I wanted to
(07:10):
help her to help herself so thatshe would feel better about life and herself,
and she was angry about that.So her final words to me were
not very kind and it really touchedmy heart and hurt me. Now you
get a word in Edgeway, Sorry, yes, no, there's so many
thoughts going through my mind. Butit sounds like what you're kind of leading
(07:30):
up to is that you found yourselfin the too nice mom syndrome, and
how did that contribute to your owncommunication breakdowns between yourself and your daughter.
Yeah, so that's a great questionbecause what often happens when we have that
experience where maybe we had our ownchildhood wounds and we try to heal them
(07:51):
and we do the best we can, and we can get into that some
more as well, because that's reallyimportant, is that we often times pass
along to our children this idea thatI'm going to do it so much differently,
this pendulum wing, and I'm goingto give her endless amounts of love.
You know, that whole concept ofyour sitting up with your daughter until
(08:11):
the wee hours of the night becauseshe's having a tough time with sleeping,
or later on in middle school,she's having a problem with her friend and
she's up all night and she can'tsleep and she wants to talk. So
I'm that mom. I'm just thereand I figured this is like, this
is a great concept, and yetsometimes you don't really appreciate it. They
take it for granted. They becomea little bit entitled that original title was
(08:35):
such a bitch, not that she'sreally a bitch, but this idea of
Hella, wait a second, you'rerude. Oh you asked me originally,
how did I come up with thetitle Sassie and rude? I had like
twenty four hours to change the title. So I was like, well,
sassian rude, her new attitude atrhymes. I like it and it's fitting.
So this idea of let's do everythingthat we didn't get. I'm going
(08:58):
to be the two nice. I'mgoing to do it all. I'm going
to have almost no boundaries because Iwant her to feel this appreciation and love
and admiration that I didn't feel.And that's what a lot of moms get
stuck in that trap. Well,and it's a great point because when you
start doing everything for them, theydon't necessarily learn to do things for themselves.
(09:24):
And you know, there's this balancethat I know that we need to
have. In fact, and Ispent a lot of time working with teenagers
at risk youth, and I wouldI would speak to the parents, and
the parents would start telling me everythingthat they were doing. And one of
the things I recognized was that manyof them felt embarrassed even having to share
(09:45):
what it was they were sharing withme. And one of the things I
used to tell them was, youknow, I'd love to tell you that
I have all the answers, butyou probably would have a better chance at
getting my four year old to goto sleep right now, because you know,
they ask for a glass of water, they ask for, you know,
(10:07):
a glass of milk, Can yourub my back? You know?
You know, can you read meanother story? And you know, and
they're they're your child, so youwant to do all of these things for
them, and so and I thinkthere's kind of a similarity to this is
that you you want to help them, you think that you're helping them,
(10:28):
but as you said, there needsto be a balance. Yeah, And
that's that's the key, is thatwe think by helping them, by doing
everything for them, that they're goingto not feel any pain. And the
one thing that I really realized frommy own childhood and then as a mom
is that actually having pain and disappointmentis part of life and learning how to
deal with that is so critical todeveloping resilience and the ability to cope in
(10:52):
the world. And so we doour kids a disservice. And I know
we're focused on moms and daughters,but I also want to say, just
as parents, just when we wantto protect our children from everything, you
know, that's helicopter parenting, hoveringaround them making sure that they don't suffer
in any way, they suffer morelater on because when they have to hit
that cruel, hard world out thereand all those messages that they're faced with
(11:16):
and all the rude people and disrespectfulpeople and angry people, resentful people,
caustic people, then they don't knowhow to deal with it. So actually,
that element of suffering, a littlebit of pain, experiencing that is
really critical for development, for development, healthy development. And I love that
(11:39):
you work with at risk kids.That's how I started my careers. I
worked with children who had been removedfrom the homes from sexual abuse, physical
abuse, drug addiction with their parents. And I remember one this one kid,
I can't say his name, buthe was this super sweet little guy
and he was in my office andhe's telling me his story. I'm crying
(12:01):
and he says, doctor Deebra,how am I going to get any help
from you if you're the one who'scrying. I said, Oh my gosh,
such a blessing. I said,I've got to go back to the
drawing board. I got to figurethis out. I got to learn how
to have boundaries so that I canhear your pain and understand that empathy is
really not about living in someone else'spain. It's being able to drop into
(12:26):
that experience so that you can sitwith it for a moment and share that
with the other person, but alsohave your own self and your own experience
and not have to live that withthem. But I'll never forget that moment
because it really took me by surprise, and I said, this kid is
brilliant. He's right exactly. Ilove that, and it actually touches on
(12:48):
another point. And it was oneof the things that we used to be
able to bond with young people likethat, is they would say something brilliant
like that, but then they wouldfollow it with, but you probably don't
believe me because everybody says that Ilie, or everybody says that I do
this, or everybody says that Ido that. And I'd say, well,
(13:09):
actually I don't think that, becausehave you lied to me? And
they'd go, well no, andI go, then why would I think
that and to be able to goin, you know, to where they
went. Oh, they don't havea preconceived notion. That was something that
was always helpful. Or if theytalked about their experiences of well, you
know, I know, because Ido all of these things that the school
(13:31):
says I'm this, or they sayI'm that, I go. You know,
sometimes that's one of the problems sometimeswhen you are so intelligent that you're
operating outside the bubble that they wouldlike you in and I don't see that.
So let's let's let you express exactlywhat it is you want to And
all of a sudden they realized thatthe differences that they had made them intelligent,
(13:56):
or made them outside the bubble,not necessarily deficient it anyway, as
you were saying that, that wasthe picture that I was getting of this
young man. Yeah, it isnot a beautiful, beautiful thing, right
when we can kind of supply ablank canvas for someone and to be able
to paint from there as opposed toa preconceived notion. And that's the beauty
(14:16):
of parenting. That's so important forpeople to realize, is that we really
do start. I know, wehave genetics and that plays a big role
in what happens, but we alsoget to play with that genetics in a
way that we can really allow ourchildren to flourish. But one of the
key elements is giving but also settingboundaries. And that's what this book really
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tries to set the ground for,is that we want to create a healing
tree between moms and daughters. Wewant to be able to take some of
those old wounds that created a canvasthat wasn't so pretty and be able to
turn it into a new painting,be able to create something that's new and
beautiful in the present and in thenow. Well, we have a question
(15:01):
that's coming in and again I wantto thank those that take the time to
send in questions, many of whichare come from teachers or people that are
working in the middle of the day, so they'll send them in either before
the show or sometimes even the nightbefore. This one reads as a mother
of two grown daughters with very differentmindsets. The older one has started a
(15:22):
family of her own and seems onlyinterested in her new family and doesn't return
calls from her younger sister that shewas once so close with. My younger
daughter expresses her hurt to me,and that she has in parentheses as if
I should be able to fix it. I don't know how to help.
And it's from frustrated in Highland Park, Illinois. Well, thank you,
(15:46):
frustrated in Highland Park, Illinois.I'm so grateful when people write in and
have questions. It's amazing. Well, I feel for you. I don't
know the ages of the children,but I'm going to guess that they're probably
well into their twenties, maybe eventhirties. So yeah, new family.
My guess is that the older oneis probably holding on to some resentments and
(16:08):
wants to kind of have a freshstart, maybe doesn't want the influence of
the family dynamic that was there before. That doesn't mean that it was bad.
It just means that there's probably someunhealed wounds there. So I think
this book can be really helpful.The sassy and rude concept is that there
is as an approach and many manydifferent avenues that one can take to be
(16:30):
able to try to build that,to create that olive branch, to extend
that olive branch. Now for theyounger daughter, the sister, that's a
tough role for the mom because momswill often want to be the mediator between
siblings, but unfortunately that creates whatwe call triangulation, and then you're having
(16:51):
relationships with the other through another person, and that doesn't usually go so well.
So my advice in terms of whatto say to the younger daughters,
I would love to be able tofix it, but I really can't.
But maybe together we could approach yoursister and maybe maybe either offer some therapy
as a potential, or a forumwhere we could talk about the things that
(17:15):
are bothersome, the things that havenot been discussed in our family. What
are those skeletons in the closet thatpeople often don't want to address. We
have this saying in grief is timeheals all wounds. And I believe that's
a croc quite frankly, because timecan help heal wounds, But it's what
do we do in that time.So when we decide that just because oh
(17:37):
it's been ten years since that happened, or twenty years, that's long ago,
it's forgotten now. Not usually,Usually there are some remnants, those
little gremlins that are still sitting insidethat are wreaking havoc because we haven't really
done the process to do the healing. So one thing that's really critical in
the healing process is to try totake ownership, responsible ability, and accountability
(18:00):
for those things which we believe wehave done in our experience in relationships that
may have had a harmful effect.And we do that without shame, without
playing, without pointing fingers, butwith this idea that we can really be
accountable for the ways in which wemay have wounded another person, and that
(18:22):
we can apply this to all relationships, not just mother daughter relationships. But
I really appreciate that question because Ithink is a very common scenario. Yeah,
and I love the fact that youbrought up the triangulation problem because again,
as I read it, I wasthinking, you're actually being thrown two
questions at once because you have theone part that one part of the question,
(18:45):
but the other part is is thatthe mother is in a very difficult
situation because of the triangulation. SoI'm so glad that you did that.
And I think those of us thatare you know, helper bees or you
know, we want to be ableto fix things, especially when it's our
children. It becomes a very difficultthing when one is asking you essentially to
(19:06):
step in and help and the otherone isn't very very difficult situation, and
I agree that I think, youknow, not only reading the book,
but may maybe one of those thingsthat get them the book, get them
the book, let them read itthemselves. I do hope that it goes
both ways. That was I actuallyhad at one point thought about doing it
(19:27):
as a flip book where one sidewas for moms and one side was for
daughters. But it became very complicatedto write it that way. Maybe someday
I'll do that, But I alsowant to say something to the mom is
that she has an opportunity to buildsomething really special with the younger daughter,
and not as an alienation of theolder daughter, but sometimes children, adult
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children just aren't ready to do thehealing process. And if the older daughter
is consumed with her own family,nuclear family that she is developing now,
and that's where she wants to giveher focus, she may not be open
to any of the things that I'msuggesting. But the younger daughter is ripe
and ready. She wants that relationshipwith her mom, so they get to
actually build something really special. Sosometimes we can use it turning chicken shit
(20:15):
into chicken salad. We get toactually take a moment with something that isn't
so good, but turn it intosomething. I know if people say lemons
and the lemonade, but that soundsboring to me. It's something more profound.
So I think that that is areally it's an opening. It's a
window to be able to have thatdialogue, that communication that maybe wouldn't have
(20:37):
been there if everything wors hunky dorywith the three of them. Well,
and again, I love that becauseessentially you're you're seizing an opportunity. What
you're saying is seize the opportunity andfill the void. Yes, I love
it, Yes, yes, Soit's it's it's a really rich moment for
the mom to be able to actuallytried many of the things in the book.
(21:00):
I have sugar and spice exercises becauseone of the goals of this book
is to bring back a little ofthat sugar and spice and maybe, just
maybe, if the older daughter seesthat the younger daughter and mom have this
really cool relationship that's developing, shemay want in on it a little bit
as well. But again, Idon't know the scenario, don't know the
situation. I know this happens inmany families. Sometimes people just want to
(21:25):
move in a different direction. Sometimesthey come around, and sometimes they don't.
But at least she's got another onethat she can work with to make
something really special. So thanks forthat question. Well, you you just
you started to share a little bitabout the you know, the sugar and
spice part. So why don't youshare, you know, sort of a
(21:45):
sneak peek into you know, thethree step plan that you outline in the
book for that really focuses on healingbroken bonds. Well, I think what's
really critical in this this arena isthat we the most important things is that
we take responsibility for our own experienceand our own childhood, our own wounds.
(22:08):
We need to really heal those.We need to understand what those are
through self compassion, no blame,no shame, really just taking a deep,
dark look at what it is thatwe carried forward in our own mothering
that came from our ways in whichthat we were mothered and the ways that
that worked and the ways that itdidn't work, and what we may have
(22:30):
done in our parental relationship with ourchild that maybe didn't work. So that
responsibility is really key. Owning thatand then we want to see what we
can do to invite our daughter into have a healing experience with us,
and through that process we are makingamends. We are doing the best we
(22:51):
can to show that we have acknowledgmentand ownership of that which we did that
may have been hurtful or harmful.And again, we all to have to
understand intentions, because our intentions areoften very good, and sometimes we just
say, well, my intentions weregood, Well, why wasn't it seen
that way? Why wasn't it metthat way? But that's we can't We
(23:11):
cannot view or read intentions. Theyare deep within us that we know,
but other people don't know that.So we can have the best of intentions.
For example, if if you know, I accidentally slammed the door on
your finger when you're leaving my office. I didn't mean to. Maybe I
was preoccupied and I was answering acall. But if you have to go
(23:32):
to the er because you have aswollen finger, well, by golly,
you don't care about my intentions atthat moment. You have to heal the
hurt, right, So we haveto then take our responsibility, extend that
to our daughter, and then alsomake amends. And make amends. Is
also about asking for forgiveness. Forgivenessis a really key feature here too,
(23:52):
because a lot of people think justforgive someone, But forgiveness, I think
is a much more active approach,which we have to ask for forgiveness about
something because we have to acknowledge thatwhich we want forgiveness for. Mm hmmm.
I think it's a great point.What advice would you give, you
know, the mothers that are dealingwith it again, your term sassy daughters
(24:17):
and vice versa great thank you?Uh so. So one of the fun
parts of the book is I havea sassy and rude quotient. Uh So,
you can actually take the questionnaire.To do the questionnaire, it's like
a little quiz of you know,how just how sassy is your daughter?
Just how rude is she? Right, because we have the mild version of
(24:41):
you know, you talk to yourdaughter and she kind of rolls her eyes
and she's like, mom, mom, stop that. But you're still engaged
and you're still connected, and you'reyou're having you're just having your thing.
But she she can be a littlesassy, right, And then we have
those maybe even like this this momwho wrote in whose daughter doesn't want to
have anything to do with her,and that's that's not necessarily being actively sassy
(25:03):
and rude, but that's kind ofthe deepest wound of all is disconnection,
the I don't even want to havea relationship with you. So we have
a huge variance in terms of whatthat means. So let's just go with
the sort of more average range wherewe have you know, moms and daughters
who you know, daughter's grown up, she's done her. Let me just
(25:25):
segue a little bit into the separationindividuation process, because I think that's really
critical to understanding this. All childrenand their parents do this process developmentally called
separation and individuation where we recognize veryearly on that we are a separate being.
We're no longer attached to the womb. We're not part of that umbilical
court. We are a separate being. That little baby who's screaming for food
(25:48):
recognizes, wait a minute, I'mnot part of mommy anymore. But when
when mom's there, daddy's there givingthe bottle or giving the breast. Well,
dads can't give the breast, butmaybe they can in some in some
way, or mom and moms whateverthe compilation is of the family system.
There is this sense of connection,but as we grow up, we learn
(26:08):
that we're also an individual. Weare a separate identity from our parents.
Sometimes that's a huge contrast, andwe go the opposite. Many called adolescent
rebellion because we're trying to really pullaway in very very deep ways. But
for many moms and daughters, becausethey are the same gender, there's there's
(26:29):
a there's a connection that's very similar. So the individuation process is sometimes a
little bit more complicated. So thatsassian rude component is for everyone, right,
I mean, there is a sassianrude component that's just going to happen,
And in fact, if it hasn'thappened, I would say beware,
it's going to happen. Sometimes itmay be delayed, but at some point
or another it's it's a daughter's purposeto push away to some degree. So
(26:55):
for to en messed or too close, that's going to also be problematic.
So thevice is you want to recognizewhat is the level of saftiness and rudeness
that you're dealing with. If it'skind of mild, you're going to have
a much easier go. If it'svery severe, you're going to have much
more to do. But the basicpremise is that, again in that idea
of what is the healing process,we want to take accountability for ourselves.
(27:17):
We want to really learn what wehave control over and what we don't because
a lot of times we try,we believe. You know, you be
at a restaurant with your intimate partnerand he or she behaves in an obnoxious
way and a friend says, howcan you let hear she behave that way?
And you say, I don't haveany control over that person. Right,
(27:40):
So, even with our children,while we have influence over them,
we don't have full control. Wecan control our younger ones because we can
corral them back in the house,we can put them in their room for
time out, we can take awaycertain things we're influencing, though we ultimately
cannot control somebody else's thoughts, feeling, reactions to things only her own.
(28:02):
So we want to be really responsiblethat. So that's a really key step
in this process is really owning thatwhich you can own, and then you
want to do your best to makeamends. You want to really put out
there, Hey, look you knowwhat, when you were fifteen, I
did this, and I'm not proudof that, and I'm sorry for that,
you know, just just put itout there. Also, I have
(28:23):
exercises in the books where there's waysin which you can communicate with your daughter
via email or text or even aphone call, whatever suit suit you at
this point in life, and beable to ask questions. One of the
things that I did with my daughterand I asked her and several other reasonably
young women in there, you know, eighteen to thirty or thirty five,
(28:48):
what are these things that you reallyadmire about your mom? What are the
things you wish that she had notdone, wish that she had changed?
What things would do? What qualitiesdo you really wish would never change?
How she hurt you? There's thesequestions that are very You know this from
working with high risk youth. Youdon't want to ask yes or no questions.
You want to have questions that givethem the forum to be able to
(29:12):
really express themselves. Did you likethat? Yes or no? Tell me
what you liked about that exactly,Tell me what you didn't like about that.
Did that hurt you? Tell mehow that hurt you? And I
think that's that's that's such a greatpoint, and it's and I'm I'm proud
(29:33):
to say that it was the wayin which I raised my boys. But
it was, you know, itwasn't how was school today? It was
what was the most interesting thing aboutschool? And the next day it might
be what was the most exciting thingabout school? You know, just always
something to where I can't do yesor no. Yeah, And I agree,
(29:55):
And it makes perfect sense in thesesituations as well, you know,
to to help if you're trying tohelp you create a better bond or heal
a bond or anything else, itmakes perfect sense. And some listeners viewers
will be saying to themselves, yeah, but I do do that, and
I still get the one word answer, I still get the I don't know
(30:15):
or I don't care or something likethat. Then you probably have a deeper
wound going on and being open tosaying, hey, you know what,
I really want to have our relationshipget better. I'd really love to have
open communication. Please take some timeand think about what you think would make
(30:37):
that better and give that onus.If you will give that responsibility to your
adult child, to your adult daughter, to say, tell me, tell
me what you would like, tellme how I can do better because when
you give that openness, it usuallymelts someone's heart, right. You just
know this in most of your relationships, when you're open that way, unless
you're with a sociopath, which wehope that's not the case, then most
(31:00):
people are going to soften and wantto give something to you. And that's
perfect. And it's it's almost asif you're reading my mind because one of
my thoughts was was that you know, to share some of the exercises.
So for everybody out there, theseare solution oriented tools and exercises that are
in the book, what she's tellingyou right now. So I think that's
(31:22):
great. One of the things thatif I get more comments on this show
than anything else, it is peoplethat say their favorite part is memorable stories.
So if you can share, likeone of your favorite memorable success stories
where your guidance led to a significantpositive change in a mother daughter relationship.
(31:48):
Absolutely, And I have to bevery careful because even in the book,
I do use real life stories,but I change them up a bunch of
idea information because of confidentiality. SoI'm gonna be really careful here also on
air to say that I there's onethat comes to mind, and they just
I can just see them in myoffice right now. And you know,
(32:12):
we what do we even call middleage these days? What is middle age?
Fifties? Well, I can tellyou what middle age is. It's
a number that keeps moving larger asI get older. Perfect, Okay,
so I won't even qualified. I'lljust say this woman in her fifties and
her daughter in her thirties, anddaughter actually had to move back home.
(32:35):
So there was a period of timewhere they live separate and their relationship did
pretty well. But when when shehad to move back home, you know
what hit the fan. There wasa lot of Turmoils is a single mom
and very active, you know,love's nature, and very interested in energetics
and doing all kinds of healing things. And the daughter was a little bit
more conservative, more kind of tryingto figure out what she wanted to do
(33:00):
in life. And they would bombheads a lot because the mom was all
about one of the I do somefun little labels of moms in the book,
like friendly freeda perfectionistic Pia. SoI have these little categories that people
can relate to about, well,what kind of mom, what kind of
too nice mom? Am I.So she was the friendly freeda type,
(33:20):
just wanted to be in her daughter'sbusiness all the time, and the daughter
was like, hello, Mom,I love you, but can you step
back. So our work together wasreally about learning how to set very respectful
boundaries. Now, the daughter waspassive aggressive, so she would say she
would do things and didn't do thembecause this was her way of expressing her
discontent with her mom. They weretrapped in this dynamic where the mom was,
(33:45):
you know, come on, let'sgo do this, get that done,
and then we can go do thisand do this fun stuff, and
always kind of like almost bribing sothat we could have all this playtime together,
and the daughter's like, I don'treally want all that playtime with mom.
I want to have playtime with myfriends or do other things. It
was two and true. So wehad to work on how to set appropriate
boundaries that were fitting for her nowas an adult woman. Right the daughter's
(34:07):
an adult woman, she's not twelve, And how to be able to communicate
with each other where they could reallyshare what their needs were, be respectful,
and work on those hurt feelings.Because the mom would feel like if
the daughter didn't spend time with herthat she was a bad mom or that
she wasn't loved, and it wasn'ttrue at all. The daughter adored her
and loved her and thought she wasamazing, but she didn't want to be
(34:29):
her. She wanted to have herown identity. So was that process of
really learning how to communicate. Andone of my favorite exercises in the book
is the convo redo. It's aconversation redo where you have a situation where
you have an upset and it goesawry, and then you both reflect and
you think back on how can werechange that conversation where it's going to go
(34:51):
better where I'm respectful, empathetic,understanding, forgiving, and aware of my
own self. And so I lovethat. And by the way, you
take that to the bank with anyrelationship, because couples do this all the
time too. Convo redoo's are reallymagnificent. It really allows you to have
a healing experience instead of just oh, okay, whatever, we'll just forget
(35:13):
about that and move on. Youcan really healed during that time. I
love it. Having recently gone througha divorce from her father, my relationship
with my adult daughter has changed drasticallyhaving been very close before the divorce.
She now paints her father as avictim and only allows me to see the
grandchildren when she is in need ofa break. I've avoided seeing anything bad
(35:37):
about her father, and she doesn'tseem to know or remember the verbal and
mental abuse I took for many yearsbefore she graduated and set out to form
a life of her own. Howdo I rekindle our close relationship without sharing
information about her father that will makeher sad and or hurt her relationship with
(35:58):
him? And this is from andin Phoenix, Arizona. Oh, dear
Catherine, my heart just just meltsfor you. That's such a difficult situation.
Also, having been a single mom, My daughter's dad and I separated
when she was just an infant.Actually, so you know, long a
(36:19):
long road of that, And soundslike Catherine, this is a more recent
experience. It's really it's a reallysensitive area. There's a chapter in the
book that really is about some thingsare better left unsaid, how much to
tell, how much not to tellabout everything but your own history, your
own past, your relationships, etcetera. In this kind of situation,
I don't know exactly how old thatShe didn't say how old her daughter is,
(36:45):
but I'm going to assume she's ofage to be able to hear some
things. And what well it mentionsgrandchildren. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
so she still could be pretty young, right, twenties could be there.
We don't know yet. We don'tknow how the little grandchildren not. Maybe
there maybies, maybe they're anyway somewherein there. And adults we're going to
(37:07):
assume, yes, right, anduh so, but good point. Yeah,
so I think that there is apoint in time where it's okay to
have a more candid conversation with achild if you've been through a divorce.
And it's not to say, hey, I'm going to just spew everything that
(37:27):
went on, but how about settingup a time that says, hey,
I'd like to get a little bitmore real with you about what my experience
was. And I honor that youhave your own perception. This is what
she should be telling her daughter.I honor that you have your own perception.
I honor that you have your ownexperience. If you're at all interested,
I'd love to be able to sharewith you a little bit more about
my experience. And most importantly,I don't want that to get between us.
(37:52):
I don't know why you can't havethe relationship you want to have with
your dad and still have a relationshipwith me. Can we work creating the
boundary between us that we are ourown entity, that we don't have to
be the entity of you, yourdad, and me. But it's you
and I have an identity as arelationship, and you and your dad have
(38:13):
that. And I don't know whatkind of relationship is it's cordial or not
that she has with her acts hopefullyit is, but I think that it's
important sometimes to share a little bitmore if the daughter's willing, so you
actually present that, You create spacefor that, You create an invitation for
that to see if there's some possibilityof a little bit more healing in that
(38:35):
department. I like it. I'mglancing over at the time and we've only
got about three minutes nod. Well, I know, and it went way
too fast. But a few things. One is is that i'd love to
have you back, because I actuallyfought myself from going off in so many
different directions of things that I'd loveto talk to you about, but I
(38:58):
wanted to stay closer to the focusof this particular book. So I'd love
to have you back because there's somuch more I think we could go into,
but let's kind of close with Whatmessage do you hope readers take away
from Sassy and rude her new attitude, you know, and explain maybe how
they'll be able to start implementing thesechanges in their lives right away. Yeah,
(39:23):
thank you for that question. Ithink that the message that I really
want to convey is hope. Andit's not always hope for a better relationship
with one daughter, because you can'tcontrol that. We can influence, like
I said earlier, we can putthings in the mixed ingredients to hopefully have
more sugar and spice and delight inthat, but it's it's the hope that
(39:46):
we can heal ourselves in this process. And if we are sitting around as
many moms are wounded birds right,I'm so wounded. My daughter doesn't want
to talk to me. She's notthe same as she was with me when
she was in middle school or whenshe was ten. She's just changed.
I can't I never forget the daythat my daughter was twelve and she said
I'm never moving out. I'm like, okay, can we write that down.
(40:07):
I just really want to hear that. I want to be able to
present that to an eighteen man.She was out. It's fast as she
could, as fast as she couldgo, and she graduated high school great.
So the idea is hope for oneselfto be able to heal our own
wounds, to be able to becomemore whole, more self compassionate, self
(40:27):
loving, get rid of this blameshame game, be responsible and accountable,
and be able to share that soyou get to be your best self.
And by the way, that's attractive. So if your daughter doesn't want some
of that, I'd be surprised.That's a great point. I love it.
Deborah. Thank you so much,and not just for coming on,
(40:49):
but for putting the books that you'veput out. I had a chance to
go through a few of them becauseI wanted to get a better fix on
you. And although I not readall of this particular book, what I
did read I felt wasn't just motherdaughter. I felt things that were just
relationship, you know, to whereit would be, Hey, I could
(41:13):
use this with with my own kids, or I could use this with my
own you know, the love ofmy life or whatever. You know,
it's okay. There's a lot ofthings that worked here that I think are
are beyond just the mother daughter relationship. And thank you for that. Thank
you so much. Yeah, Sopick up a copy at Amazon dot com,
and I hope people will visit mywebsite also at Doctordeborah online dot com,
(41:37):
d R D E b r Aonline dot com and find out more
about me and my my practice andall that stuff. And it's such a
pleasure to be here. You know, we would fellow radio show hosts for
all those years in studio and nevercame across each other. That's beautiful that
we could today, absolutely, andI look forward to to fixing that by
(42:00):
getting together again and sharing some moregreat stories. And again for everybody out
there, if you're driving and youweren't able to write any of that down
again, and the book is morethan just Amazon, if I'm not mistaken,
right, you can get it mostanywhere, Yeah, any online sellers,
for sure. Yeah exactly. So, yeah, it's out there for
(42:22):
everybody, and we'll put it allin the show notes as well, so
not only how to get the book, but also how to reach doctor Deborah
because again she has a full practiceand helps people in many different ways.
So again, thank you so much, thank you, what a beautiful time
together. Thank you so much.You're welcome. For everybody out there,
(42:43):
be good human beings and be withus again. Next week on Answers Network,
the UT Them Down the Dead
Thank you for joining us, andwelcome to another edition of Answers Network.
I'm your host, Alan Cardoza.Now today we're going to be unveiling the
untold stories of mother daughter trauma andso much more. Joining us is nationally
renowned psychologist and author of five publishedbooks, Sasse and Rude, her newest
(00:28):
one which is Her New Attitude,Don't call Me a Drama Queen, Dump
that chump, Your boss is notyour mother, and Healing the Sensitive Heart.
Doctor Deborah Mandel aka the Love Wire, has over thirty years experience,
specializing in helping individuals, couples,and families learn how to thrive in their
(00:51):
relationships. Now, if doctor Deborah'sname sounds familiar, it's no wonder.
She's appeared on hundreds of national TVand radio shows, including Raising Sex Tuplets,
which I didn't see that one,but I have seen a few of
them, Love Handles, Tyra Banks, The Today Show, The Early Show,
(01:11):
and she's been regularly featured expert onCNN Headline News, The O'Reilly Factory,
and Inside Edition, and is frequentlysought out by journalists and reporters for
expertise in numerous areas, and shealso co hosted her own radio show on
this same network, the Doctor Deborahand Therapist Kelly Show, and she during
(01:36):
that time she was accumulated over amillion listeners. So I am so thankful
to have her on here. SoDoctor Debrah, welcome to Answers Network.
Thank you. I think we shouldjust stop here. That sounded so impressive.
I don't think I opened my mouthafter that. Well, you know,
(01:59):
it's it's one of those things thatI was thinking about it, and
I said, first of all,I can't believe that you haven't been on
the show before, because there's somany great subjects. It's such a great
fit. But I love the factthat we're starting with now with your latest
book, Sassy and Rude, herNew Attitude, So let's talk about that
(02:20):
one. But at the same time, we've got some We've already have some
listener questions that have come in,which I think is great. But there's
some of the other things I'd loveto touch on too, and things that
we can talk about, things thatare going on today. But starting with
Sassy and Rude, how'd you comeup with that name? Well? Can
(02:40):
I tell you the original title?Please? Why is she such a bitch?
And who recommended you change it.The publisher did not want that.
It was a Spanish publisher with theirfirst year of imprinting in the US,
and they just said no. Theeditor loved it, was very excited about
(03:05):
the title. I wrote that ActuallyI wrote this proposal for this book about
thirteen years ago. Wow. AndI'll tell you a little funny story about
this. So two years ago,I was in the hospital for a paper
cut that went rogue, literally wentroad like. My hands swelled up like
a baseball bit. And I'm allergicto all kinds of antibiotics, so it
(03:30):
was just a very it was ahorrible moment. I'm in the hospital bed
with hooked up in these ivs withantibiotics and all this stuff. When I
get an email from my agent,who I hadn't talked to for years because
this is a long time since I'vehad a published book, and she says,
I have a publisher interested in yourbook proposal. Why is she such
(03:53):
a bit from like thirteen years ago. I'm like, oh, you kidding
me? Well, blessings come whenyou're in the hospital. I'm thinking I'm
going to die from septis septis Andhere we are, Okay, great.
So that's how it went off andrunning. But I did write this book
along the proposal a long time agowhen I was having a struggle with my
(04:13):
own daughter. So I don't knowwhere you want to start, but I
can get into a little bit ofmy own history. And you absolutely well
though, that's exactly where I wasgoing to go is is and I didn't
know that it was thirteen years ago. But in some of the things that
I had researched myself that you know, there is some examples that you have
from your own life. So let'sstart with sharing those things. Yeah,
(04:36):
So my parents were both immigrants.My father was from Poland and a Holocaust
survivor. My mother was from Estoniaand she was Estonia became part of Russia
and they left there and went toSweden, and my mom made it to
Canada. My mom was much youngerthan my father. They marry in Canada
(05:00):
and when they came to the States, the joke was they spoke eleven languages
between the two of them, butnone of them English. So it was
that kind of family, right.They were struggling, they were trying to
make do. My father ended upbasically starting car wash businesses and made a
great success for himself. I thinkmy mom was a little bit thwarted in
(05:25):
her life. She was a modelin Canada, a very beautiful woman,
very stoic, smart, very stubborn. I take some of that from her.
And she was a young mom,and I don't know that she really
wanted to have that role in herlife. Quite frankly, I think she
gave up a lot to be amom, and I think she had a
(05:46):
lot of resentment and anger and shejust wasn't something that you would talk about
at that time. So when shedecided, when they decided to have children,
he just raised us with a veryheavy hand. She was very she
was very loving in her heart,but he didn't feel very loved. You
know. It was one of thosewhere you get a's why are they not
(06:06):
a pluses? Did you clean yourroom? It's not perfect enough. You
leave a glass on the table.Oh my goodness, you're going to the
bathroom, the glass is gone,and then you're punished because you left the
glass on the table. That kindof thing. So I did not feel
very loved. And I was oneof those super sensitive little girls where I
wanted the cuddles, I wanted thehugs. I wanted the contact. I
(06:27):
wanted, you know, to kindof like snuggle up in my mom's arms,
but she just wasn't that kind ofmom. So it was tough for
me. And at that time,I said, oh, if I'm going
to have kids, I am definitelygoing to do the opposite, which is
a mistake that many parents make,is I'm going to do the pendulum swing.
I'm going to go completely the oppositeof what I got. So that's
kind of how it all started.It really inspired me. My mom died
(06:49):
very young. She was only fiftyeight, and so I was just barely
had my own daughter at that time, so she never got to be a
grandma to my child and we missedout on a lot. And in the
last of her final days, shewas angry with me because I was actually
trying to get her help. Iwas already a psychologist. I wanted to
(07:10):
help her to help herself so thatshe would feel better about life and herself,
and she was angry about that.So her final words to me were
not very kind and it really touchedmy heart and hurt me. Now you
get a word in Edgeway, Sorry, yes, no, there's so many
thoughts going through my mind. Butit sounds like what you're kind of leading
(07:30):
up to is that you found yourselfin the too nice mom syndrome, and
how did that contribute to your owncommunication breakdowns between yourself and your daughter.
Yeah, so that's a great questionbecause what often happens when we have that
experience where maybe we had our ownchildhood wounds and we try to heal them
(07:51):
and we do the best we can, and we can get into that some
more as well, because that's reallyimportant, is that we often times pass
along to our children this idea thatI'm going to do it so much differently,
this pendulum wing, and I'm goingto give her endless amounts of love.
You know, that whole concept ofyour sitting up with your daughter until
(08:11):
the wee hours of the night becauseshe's having a tough time with sleeping,
or later on in middle school,she's having a problem with her friend and
she's up all night and she can'tsleep and she wants to talk. So
I'm that mom. I'm just thereand I figured this is like, this
is a great concept, and yetsometimes you don't really appreciate it. They
take it for granted. They becomea little bit entitled that original title was
(08:35):
such a bitch, not that she'sreally a bitch, but this idea of
Hella, wait a second, you'rerude. Oh you asked me originally,
how did I come up with thetitle Sassie and rude? I had like
twenty four hours to change the title. So I was like, well,
sassian rude, her new attitude atrhymes. I like it and it's fitting.
So this idea of let's do everythingthat we didn't get. I'm going
(08:58):
to be the two nice. I'mgoing to do it all. I'm going
to have almost no boundaries because Iwant her to feel this appreciation and love
and admiration that I didn't feel.And that's what a lot of moms get
stuck in that trap. Well,and it's a great point because when you
start doing everything for them, theydon't necessarily learn to do things for themselves.
(09:24):
And you know, there's this balancethat I know that we need to
have. In fact, and Ispent a lot of time working with teenagers
at risk youth, and I wouldI would speak to the parents, and
the parents would start telling me everythingthat they were doing. And one of
the things I recognized was that manyof them felt embarrassed even having to share
(09:45):
what it was they were sharing withme. And one of the things I
used to tell them was, youknow, I'd love to tell you that
I have all the answers, butyou probably would have a better chance at
getting my four year old to goto sleep right now, because you know,
they ask for a glass of water, they ask for, you know,
(10:07):
a glass of milk, Can yourub my back? You know?
You know, can you read meanother story? And you know, and
they're they're your child, so youwant to do all of these things for
them, and so and I thinkthere's kind of a similarity to this is
that you you want to help them, you think that you're helping them,
(10:28):
but as you said, there needsto be a balance. Yeah, And
that's that's the key, is thatwe think by helping them, by doing
everything for them, that they're goingto not feel any pain. And the
one thing that I really realized frommy own childhood and then as a mom
is that actually having pain and disappointmentis part of life and learning how to
deal with that is so critical todeveloping resilience and the ability to cope in
(10:52):
the world. And so we doour kids a disservice. And I know
we're focused on moms and daughters,but I also want to say, just
as parents, just when we wantto protect our children from everything, you
know, that's helicopter parenting, hoveringaround them making sure that they don't suffer
in any way, they suffer morelater on because when they have to hit
that cruel, hard world out thereand all those messages that they're faced with
(11:16):
and all the rude people and disrespectfulpeople and angry people, resentful people,
caustic people, then they don't knowhow to deal with it. So actually,
that element of suffering, a littlebit of pain, experiencing that is
really critical for development, for development, healthy development. And I love that
(11:39):
you work with at risk kids.That's how I started my careers. I
worked with children who had been removedfrom the homes from sexual abuse, physical
abuse, drug addiction with their parents. And I remember one this one kid,
I can't say his name, buthe was this super sweet little guy
and he was in my office andhe's telling me his story. I'm crying
(12:01):
and he says, doctor Deebra,how am I going to get any help
from you if you're the one who'scrying. I said, Oh my gosh,
such a blessing. I said,I've got to go back to the
drawing board. I got to figurethis out. I got to learn how
to have boundaries so that I canhear your pain and understand that empathy is
really not about living in someone else'spain. It's being able to drop into
(12:26):
that experience so that you can sitwith it for a moment and share that
with the other person, but alsohave your own self and your own experience
and not have to live that withthem. But I'll never forget that moment
because it really took me by surprise, and I said, this kid is
brilliant. He's right exactly. Ilove that, and it actually touches on
(12:48):
another point. And it was oneof the things that we used to be
able to bond with young people likethat, is they would say something brilliant
like that, but then they wouldfollow it with, but you probably don't
believe me because everybody says that Ilie, or everybody says that I do
this, or everybody says that Ido that. And I'd say, well,
(13:09):
actually I don't think that, becausehave you lied to me? And
they'd go, well no, andI go, then why would I think
that and to be able to goin, you know, to where they
went. Oh, they don't havea preconceived notion. That was something that
was always helpful. Or if theytalked about their experiences of well, you
know, I know, because Ido all of these things that the school
(13:31):
says I'm this, or they sayI'm that, I go. You know,
sometimes that's one of the problems sometimeswhen you are so intelligent that you're
operating outside the bubble that they wouldlike you in and I don't see that.
So let's let's let you express exactlywhat it is you want to And
all of a sudden they realized thatthe differences that they had made them intelligent,
(13:56):
or made them outside the bubble,not necessarily deficient it anyway, as
you were saying that, that wasthe picture that I was getting of this
young man. Yeah, it isnot a beautiful, beautiful thing, right
when we can kind of supply ablank canvas for someone and to be able
to paint from there as opposed toa preconceived notion. And that's the beauty
(14:16):
of parenting. That's so important forpeople to realize, is that we really
do start. I know, wehave genetics and that plays a big role
in what happens, but we alsoget to play with that genetics in a
way that we can really allow ourchildren to flourish. But one of the
key elements is giving but also settingboundaries. And that's what this book really
(14:37):
tries to set the ground for,is that we want to create a healing
tree between moms and daughters. Wewant to be able to take some of
those old wounds that created a canvasthat wasn't so pretty and be able to
turn it into a new painting,be able to create something that's new and
beautiful in the present and in thenow. Well, we have a question
(15:01):
that's coming in and again I wantto thank those that take the time to
send in questions, many of whichare come from teachers or people that are
working in the middle of the day, so they'll send them in either before
the show or sometimes even the nightbefore. This one reads as a mother
of two grown daughters with very differentmindsets. The older one has started a
(15:22):
family of her own and seems onlyinterested in her new family and doesn't return
calls from her younger sister that shewas once so close with. My younger
daughter expresses her hurt to me,and that she has in parentheses as if
I should be able to fix it. I don't know how to help.
And it's from frustrated in Highland Park, Illinois. Well, thank you,
(15:46):
frustrated in Highland Park, Illinois.I'm so grateful when people write in and
have questions. It's amazing. Well, I feel for you. I don't
know the ages of the children,but I'm going to guess that they're probably
well into their twenties, maybe eventhirties. So yeah, new family.
My guess is that the older oneis probably holding on to some resentments and
(16:08):
wants to kind of have a freshstart, maybe doesn't want the influence of
the family dynamic that was there before. That doesn't mean that it was bad.
It just means that there's probably someunhealed wounds there. So I think
this book can be really helpful.The sassy and rude concept is that there
is as an approach and many manydifferent avenues that one can take to be
(16:30):
able to try to build that,to create that olive branch, to extend
that olive branch. Now for theyounger daughter, the sister, that's a
tough role for the mom because momswill often want to be the mediator between
siblings, but unfortunately that creates whatwe call triangulation, and then you're having
(16:51):
relationships with the other through another person, and that doesn't usually go so well.
So my advice in terms of whatto say to the younger daughters,
I would love to be able tofix it, but I really can't.
But maybe together we could approach yoursister and maybe maybe either offer some therapy
as a potential, or a forumwhere we could talk about the things that
(17:15):
are bothersome, the things that havenot been discussed in our family. What
are those skeletons in the closet thatpeople often don't want to address. We
have this saying in grief is timeheals all wounds. And I believe that's
a croc quite frankly, because timecan help heal wounds, But it's what
do we do in that time.So when we decide that just because oh
(17:37):
it's been ten years since that happened, or twenty years, that's long ago,
it's forgotten now. Not usually,Usually there are some remnants, those
little gremlins that are still sitting insidethat are wreaking havoc because we haven't really
done the process to do the healing. So one thing that's really critical in
the healing process is to try totake ownership, responsible ability, and accountability
(18:00):
for those things which we believe wehave done in our experience in relationships that
may have had a harmful effect.And we do that without shame, without
playing, without pointing fingers, butwith this idea that we can really be
accountable for the ways in which wemay have wounded another person, and that
(18:22):
we can apply this to all relationships, not just mother daughter relationships. But
I really appreciate that question because Ithink is a very common scenario. Yeah,
and I love the fact that youbrought up the triangulation problem because again,
as I read it, I wasthinking, you're actually being thrown two
questions at once because you have theone part that one part of the question,
(18:45):
but the other part is is thatthe mother is in a very difficult
situation because of the triangulation. SoI'm so glad that you did that.
And I think those of us thatare you know, helper bees or you
know, we want to be ableto fix things, especially when it's our
children. It becomes a very difficultthing when one is asking you essentially to
(19:06):
step in and help and the otherone isn't very very difficult situation, and
I agree that I think, youknow, not only reading the book,
but may maybe one of those thingsthat get them the book, get them
the book, let them read itthemselves. I do hope that it goes
both ways. That was I actuallyhad at one point thought about doing it
(19:27):
as a flip book where one sidewas for moms and one side was for
daughters. But it became very complicatedto write it that way. Maybe someday
I'll do that, But I alsowant to say something to the mom is
that she has an opportunity to buildsomething really special with the younger daughter,
and not as an alienation of theolder daughter, but sometimes children, adult
(19:49):
children just aren't ready to do thehealing process. And if the older daughter
is consumed with her own family,nuclear family that she is developing now,
and that's where she wants to giveher focus, she may not be open
to any of the things that I'msuggesting. But the younger daughter is ripe
and ready. She wants that relationshipwith her mom, so they get to
actually build something really special. Sosometimes we can use it turning chicken shit
(20:15):
into chicken salad. We get toactually take a moment with something that isn't
so good, but turn it intosomething. I know if people say lemons
and the lemonade, but that soundsboring to me. It's something more profound.
So I think that that is areally it's an opening. It's a
window to be able to have thatdialogue, that communication that maybe wouldn't have
(20:37):
been there if everything wors hunky dorywith the three of them. Well,
and again, I love that becauseessentially you're you're seizing an opportunity. What
you're saying is seize the opportunity andfill the void. Yes, I love
it, Yes, yes, Soit's it's it's a really rich moment for
the mom to be able to actuallytried many of the things in the book.
(21:00):
I have sugar and spice exercises becauseone of the goals of this book
is to bring back a little ofthat sugar and spice and maybe, just
maybe, if the older daughter seesthat the younger daughter and mom have this
really cool relationship that's developing, shemay want in on it a little bit
as well. But again, Idon't know the scenario, don't know the
situation. I know this happens inmany families. Sometimes people just want to
(21:25):
move in a different direction. Sometimesthey come around, and sometimes they don't.
But at least she's got another onethat she can work with to make
something really special. So thanks forthat question. Well, you you just
you started to share a little bitabout the you know, the sugar and
spice part. So why don't youshare, you know, sort of a
(21:45):
sneak peek into you know, thethree step plan that you outline in the
book for that really focuses on healingbroken bonds. Well, I think what's
really critical in this this arena isthat we the most important things is that
we take responsibility for our own experienceand our own childhood, our own wounds.
(22:08):
We need to really heal those.We need to understand what those are
through self compassion, no blame,no shame, really just taking a deep,
dark look at what it is thatwe carried forward in our own mothering
that came from our ways in whichthat we were mothered and the ways that
that worked and the ways that itdidn't work, and what we may have
(22:30):
done in our parental relationship with ourchild that maybe didn't work. So that
responsibility is really key. Owning thatand then we want to see what we
can do to invite our daughter into have a healing experience with us,
and through that process we are makingamends. We are doing the best we
(22:51):
can to show that we have acknowledgmentand ownership of that which we did that
may have been hurtful or harmful.And again, we all to have to
understand intentions, because our intentions areoften very good, and sometimes we just
say, well, my intentions weregood, Well, why wasn't it seen
that way? Why wasn't it metthat way? But that's we can't We
(23:11):
cannot view or read intentions. Theyare deep within us that we know,
but other people don't know that.So we can have the best of intentions.
For example, if if you know, I accidentally slammed the door on
your finger when you're leaving my office. I didn't mean to. Maybe I
was preoccupied and I was answering acall. But if you have to go
(23:32):
to the er because you have aswollen finger, well, by golly,
you don't care about my intentions atthat moment. You have to heal the
hurt, right, So we haveto then take our responsibility, extend that
to our daughter, and then alsomake amends. And make amends. Is
also about asking for forgiveness. Forgivenessis a really key feature here too,
(23:52):
because a lot of people think justforgive someone, But forgiveness, I think
is a much more active approach,which we have to ask for forgiveness about
something because we have to acknowledge thatwhich we want forgiveness for. Mm hmmm.
I think it's a great point.What advice would you give, you
know, the mothers that are dealingwith it again, your term sassy daughters
(24:17):
and vice versa great thank you?Uh so. So one of the fun
parts of the book is I havea sassy and rude quotient. Uh So,
you can actually take the questionnaire.To do the questionnaire, it's like
a little quiz of you know,how just how sassy is your daughter?
Just how rude is she? Right, because we have the mild version of
(24:41):
you know, you talk to yourdaughter and she kind of rolls her eyes
and she's like, mom, mom, stop that. But you're still engaged
and you're still connected, and you'reyou're having you're just having your thing.
But she she can be a littlesassy, right, And then we have
those maybe even like this this momwho wrote in whose daughter doesn't want to
have anything to do with her,and that's that's not necessarily being actively sassy
(25:03):
and rude, but that's kind ofthe deepest wound of all is disconnection,
the I don't even want to havea relationship with you. So we have
a huge variance in terms of whatthat means. So let's just go with
the sort of more average range wherewe have you know, moms and daughters
who you know, daughter's grown up, she's done her. Let me just
(25:25):
segue a little bit into the separationindividuation process, because I think that's really
critical to understanding this. All childrenand their parents do this process developmentally called
separation and individuation where we recognize veryearly on that we are a separate being.
We're no longer attached to the womb. We're not part of that umbilical
court. We are a separate being. That little baby who's screaming for food
(25:48):
recognizes, wait a minute, I'mnot part of mommy anymore. But when
when mom's there, daddy's there givingthe bottle or giving the breast. Well,
dads can't give the breast, butmaybe they can in some in some
way, or mom and moms whateverthe compilation is of the family system.
There is this sense of connection,but as we grow up, we learn
(26:08):
that we're also an individual. Weare a separate identity from our parents.
Sometimes that's a huge contrast, andwe go the opposite. Many called adolescent
rebellion because we're trying to really pullaway in very very deep ways. But
for many moms and daughters, becausethey are the same gender, there's there's
(26:29):
a there's a connection that's very similar. So the individuation process is sometimes a
little bit more complicated. So thatsassian rude component is for everyone, right,
I mean, there is a sassianrude component that's just going to happen,
And in fact, if it hasn'thappened, I would say beware,
it's going to happen. Sometimes itmay be delayed, but at some point
or another it's it's a daughter's purposeto push away to some degree. So
(26:55):
for to en messed or too close, that's going to also be problematic.
So thevice is you want to recognizewhat is the level of saftiness and rudeness
that you're dealing with. If it'skind of mild, you're going to have
a much easier go. If it'svery severe, you're going to have much
more to do. But the basicpremise is that, again in that idea
of what is the healing process,we want to take accountability for ourselves.
(27:17):
We want to really learn what wehave control over and what we don't because
a lot of times we try,we believe. You know, you be
at a restaurant with your intimate partnerand he or she behaves in an obnoxious
way and a friend says, howcan you let hear she behave that way?
And you say, I don't haveany control over that person. Right,
(27:40):
So, even with our children,while we have influence over them,
we don't have full control. Wecan control our younger ones because we can
corral them back in the house,we can put them in their room for
time out, we can take awaycertain things we're influencing, though we ultimately
cannot control somebody else's thoughts, feeling, reactions to things only her own.
(28:02):
So we want to be really responsiblethat. So that's a really key step
in this process is really owning thatwhich you can own, and then you
want to do your best to makeamends. You want to really put out
there, Hey, look you knowwhat, when you were fifteen, I
did this, and I'm not proudof that, and I'm sorry for that,
you know, just just put itout there. Also, I have
(28:23):
exercises in the books where there's waysin which you can communicate with your daughter
via email or text or even aphone call, whatever suit suit you at
this point in life, and beable to ask questions. One of the
things that I did with my daughterand I asked her and several other reasonably
young women in there, you know, eighteen to thirty or thirty five,
(28:48):
what are these things that you reallyadmire about your mom? What are the
things you wish that she had notdone, wish that she had changed?
What things would do? What qualitiesdo you really wish would never change?
How she hurt you? There's thesequestions that are very You know this from
working with high risk youth. Youdon't want to ask yes or no questions.
You want to have questions that givethem the forum to be able to
(29:12):
really express themselves. Did you likethat? Yes or no? Tell me
what you liked about that exactly,Tell me what you didn't like about that.
Did that hurt you? Tell mehow that hurt you? And I
think that's that's that's such a greatpoint, and it's and I'm I'm proud
(29:33):
to say that it was the wayin which I raised my boys. But
it was, you know, itwasn't how was school today? It was
what was the most interesting thing aboutschool? And the next day it might
be what was the most exciting thingabout school? You know, just always
something to where I can't do yesor no. Yeah, And I agree,
(29:55):
And it makes perfect sense in thesesituations as well, you know,
to to help if you're trying tohelp you create a better bond or heal
a bond or anything else, itmakes perfect sense. And some listeners viewers
will be saying to themselves, yeah, but I do do that, and
I still get the one word answer, I still get the I don't know
(30:15):
or I don't care or something likethat. Then you probably have a deeper
wound going on and being open tosaying, hey, you know what,
I really want to have our relationshipget better. I'd really love to have
open communication. Please take some timeand think about what you think would make
(30:37):
that better and give that onus.If you will give that responsibility to your
adult child, to your adult daughter, to say, tell me, tell
me what you would like, tellme how I can do better because when
you give that openness, it usuallymelts someone's heart, right. You just
know this in most of your relationships, when you're open that way, unless
you're with a sociopath, which wehope that's not the case, then most
(31:00):
people are going to soften and wantto give something to you. And that's
perfect. And it's it's almost asif you're reading my mind because one of
my thoughts was was that you know, to share some of the exercises.
So for everybody out there, theseare solution oriented tools and exercises that are
in the book, what she's tellingyou right now. So I think that's
(31:22):
great. One of the things thatif I get more comments on this show
than anything else, it is peoplethat say their favorite part is memorable stories.
So if you can share, likeone of your favorite memorable success stories
where your guidance led to a significantpositive change in a mother daughter relationship.
(31:48):
Absolutely, And I have to bevery careful because even in the book,
I do use real life stories,but I change them up a bunch of
idea information because of confidentiality. SoI'm gonna be really careful here also on
air to say that I there's onethat comes to mind, and they just
I can just see them in myoffice right now. And you know,
(32:12):
we what do we even call middleage these days? What is middle age?
Fifties? Well, I can tellyou what middle age is. It's
a number that keeps moving larger asI get older. Perfect, Okay,
so I won't even qualified. I'lljust say this woman in her fifties and
her daughter in her thirties, anddaughter actually had to move back home.
(32:35):
So there was a period of timewhere they live separate and their relationship did
pretty well. But when when shehad to move back home, you know
what hit the fan. There wasa lot of Turmoils is a single mom
and very active, you know,love's nature, and very interested in energetics
and doing all kinds of healing things. And the daughter was a little bit
more conservative, more kind of tryingto figure out what she wanted to do
(33:00):
in life. And they would bombheads a lot because the mom was all
about one of the I do somefun little labels of moms in the book,
like friendly freeda perfectionistic Pia. SoI have these little categories that people
can relate to about, well,what kind of mom, what kind of
too nice mom? Am I.So she was the friendly freeda type,
(33:20):
just wanted to be in her daughter'sbusiness all the time, and the daughter
was like, hello, Mom,I love you, but can you step
back. So our work together wasreally about learning how to set very respectful
boundaries. Now, the daughter waspassive aggressive, so she would say she
would do things and didn't do thembecause this was her way of expressing her
discontent with her mom. They weretrapped in this dynamic where the mom was,
(33:45):
you know, come on, let'sgo do this, get that done,
and then we can go do thisand do this fun stuff, and
always kind of like almost bribing sothat we could have all this playtime together,
and the daughter's like, I don'treally want all that playtime with mom.
I want to have playtime with myfriends or do other things. It
was two and true. So wehad to work on how to set appropriate
boundaries that were fitting for her nowas an adult woman. Right the daughter's
(34:07):
an adult woman, she's not twelve, And how to be able to communicate
with each other where they could reallyshare what their needs were, be respectful,
and work on those hurt feelings.Because the mom would feel like if
the daughter didn't spend time with herthat she was a bad mom or that
she wasn't loved, and it wasn'ttrue at all. The daughter adored her
and loved her and thought she wasamazing, but she didn't want to be
(34:29):
her. She wanted to have herown identity. So was that process of
really learning how to communicate. Andone of my favorite exercises in the book
is the convo redo. It's aconversation redo where you have a situation where
you have an upset and it goesawry, and then you both reflect and
you think back on how can werechange that conversation where it's going to go
(34:51):
better where I'm respectful, empathetic,understanding, forgiving, and aware of my
own self. And so I lovethat. And by the way, you
take that to the bank with anyrelationship, because couples do this all the
time too. Convo redoo's are reallymagnificent. It really allows you to have
a healing experience instead of just oh, okay, whatever, we'll just forget
(35:13):
about that and move on. Youcan really healed during that time. I
love it. Having recently gone througha divorce from her father, my relationship
with my adult daughter has changed drasticallyhaving been very close before the divorce.
She now paints her father as avictim and only allows me to see the
grandchildren when she is in need ofa break. I've avoided seeing anything bad
(35:37):
about her father, and she doesn'tseem to know or remember the verbal and
mental abuse I took for many yearsbefore she graduated and set out to form
a life of her own. Howdo I rekindle our close relationship without sharing
information about her father that will makeher sad and or hurt her relationship with
(35:58):
him? And this is from andin Phoenix, Arizona. Oh, dear
Catherine, my heart just just meltsfor you. That's such a difficult situation.
Also, having been a single mom, My daughter's dad and I separated
when she was just an infant.Actually, so you know, long a
(36:19):
long road of that, And soundslike Catherine, this is a more recent
experience. It's really it's a reallysensitive area. There's a chapter in the
book that really is about some thingsare better left unsaid, how much to
tell, how much not to tellabout everything but your own history, your
own past, your relationships, etcetera. In this kind of situation,
I don't know exactly how old thatShe didn't say how old her daughter is,
(36:45):
but I'm going to assume she's ofage to be able to hear some
things. And what well it mentionsgrandchildren. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
so she still could be pretty young, right, twenties could be there.
We don't know yet. We don'tknow how the little grandchildren not. Maybe
there maybies, maybe they're anyway somewherein there. And adults we're going to
(37:07):
assume, yes, right, anduh so, but good point. Yeah,
so I think that there is apoint in time where it's okay to
have a more candid conversation with achild if you've been through a divorce.
And it's not to say, hey, I'm going to just spew everything that
(37:27):
went on, but how about settingup a time that says, hey,
I'd like to get a little bitmore real with you about what my experience
was. And I honor that youhave your own perception. This is what
she should be telling her daughter.I honor that you have your own perception.
I honor that you have your ownexperience. If you're at all interested,
I'd love to be able to sharewith you a little bit more about
my experience. And most importantly,I don't want that to get between us.
(37:52):
I don't know why you can't havethe relationship you want to have with
your dad and still have a relationshipwith me. Can we work creating the
boundary between us that we are ourown entity, that we don't have to
be the entity of you, yourdad, and me. But it's you
and I have an identity as arelationship, and you and your dad have
(38:13):
that. And I don't know whatkind of relationship is it's cordial or not
that she has with her acts hopefullyit is, but I think that it's
important sometimes to share a little bitmore if the daughter's willing, so you
actually present that, You create spacefor that, You create an invitation for
that to see if there's some possibilityof a little bit more healing in that
(38:35):
department. I like it. I'mglancing over at the time and we've only
got about three minutes nod. Well, I know, and it went way
too fast. But a few things. One is is that i'd love to
have you back, because I actuallyfought myself from going off in so many
different directions of things that I'd loveto talk to you about, but I
(38:58):
wanted to stay closer to the focusof this particular book. So I'd love
to have you back because there's somuch more I think we could go into,
but let's kind of close with Whatmessage do you hope readers take away
from Sassy and rude her new attitude, you know, and explain maybe how
they'll be able to start implementing thesechanges in their lives right away. Yeah,
(39:23):
thank you for that question. Ithink that the message that I really
want to convey is hope. Andit's not always hope for a better relationship
with one daughter, because you can'tcontrol that. We can influence, like
I said earlier, we can putthings in the mixed ingredients to hopefully have
more sugar and spice and delight inthat, but it's it's the hope that
(39:46):
we can heal ourselves in this process. And if we are sitting around as
many moms are wounded birds right,I'm so wounded. My daughter doesn't want
to talk to me. She's notthe same as she was with me when
she was in middle school or whenshe was ten. She's just changed.
I can't I never forget the daythat my daughter was twelve and she said
I'm never moving out. I'm like, okay, can we write that down.
(40:07):
I just really want to hear that. I want to be able to
present that to an eighteen man.She was out. It's fast as she
could, as fast as she couldgo, and she graduated high school great.
So the idea is hope for oneselfto be able to heal our own
wounds, to be able to becomemore whole, more self compassionate, self
(40:27):
loving, get rid of this blameshame game, be responsible and accountable,
and be able to share that soyou get to be your best self.
And by the way, that's attractive. So if your daughter doesn't want some
of that, I'd be surprised.That's a great point. I love it.
Deborah. Thank you so much,and not just for coming on,
(40:49):
but for putting the books that you'veput out. I had a chance to
go through a few of them becauseI wanted to get a better fix on
you. And although I not readall of this particular book, what I
did read I felt wasn't just motherdaughter. I felt things that were just
relationship, you know, to whereit would be, Hey, I could
(41:13):
use this with with my own kids, or I could use this with my
own you know, the love ofmy life or whatever. You know,
it's okay. There's a lot ofthings that worked here that I think are
are beyond just the mother daughter relationship. And thank you for that. Thank
you so much. Yeah, Sopick up a copy at Amazon dot com,
and I hope people will visit mywebsite also at Doctordeborah online dot com,
(41:37):
d R D E b r Aonline dot com and find out more
about me and my my practice andall that stuff. And it's such a
pleasure to be here. You know, we would fellow radio show hosts for
all those years in studio and nevercame across each other. That's beautiful that
we could today, absolutely, andI look forward to to fixing that by
(42:00):
getting together again and sharing some moregreat stories. And again for everybody out
there, if you're driving and youweren't able to write any of that down
again, and the book is morethan just Amazon, if I'm not mistaken,
right, you can get it mostanywhere, Yeah, any online sellers,
for sure. Yeah exactly. So, yeah, it's out there for
(42:22):
everybody, and we'll put it allin the show notes as well, so
not only how to get the book, but also how to reach doctor Deborah
because again she has a full practiceand helps people in many different ways.
So again, thank you so much, thank you, what a beautiful time
together. Thank you so much.You're welcome. For everybody out there,
(42:43):
be good human beings and be withus again. Next week on Answers Network,
the UT Them Down the Dead
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