150 - Happy Lies & New Thought with Melissa Dougherty - Apologetics 315 Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Apologetics three fifteen podcast with
your hosts Brian Auten and Chad Gross. Join us for
conversations and interviews on the topics of apologetics, evangelism, and
the Christian worldview.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'll believe anything you say.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hello, and welcome to the podcast. This is Brian Aughton
and I'm Chad Gross. All Right, Chad our first interview
of twenty twenty five. I know Melissa Doherty and so,
as you know, we got the book that she has
just recently released. It's called Happy Lies and the subtitle
is called Howie movement you probably never heard of shaped

(00:42):
our self obsessed world. Think. For me, the thing that
stood out for me the most is like, oh, now
I can put a name to all these subtle things
that I've seen everywhere. It's like this undercurrent behind self
help books. It's sort of like the stuff that's shaped
and informed in many ways the Pentecostal charismatic word of

(01:05):
faith strains in churches, especially the word of faith. I
mean you could just basically say word of faith is
new thought. Man, there's so many overlaps there. It's like, oh,
so this is Oprah's religion and yeah, there's a lot
of great insights with the history of a movement that

(01:25):
is called New Thought, and so we're going to talk
to Melissa today about what that movement is. Now. I
had actually heard about this and it kind of got
on my radar maybe a year before when we were
talking to Steve Kozar with a Messed Up Church channel
and he does some stuff with Long for Truth, that
YouTube channel, and they look at the history and the

(01:47):
origins of the Pentecostal charismatic movements and they have noted
a lot of influence from the New Thought movement, and
they mentioned key figures and how they influenced it in
different ways. So yeah, when I started reading this book,
was very excited to keep delving into that aspect of it.
And then sorry to talk too much here, No, And

(02:09):
then I've also I've kind of gone down that whole
self help book rabbit trail, you know, where you get
one and then you get another and you get another,
and then you're like, well, they're talking to me about visualization,
and then they're like, oh, laws of attraction and all
these sorts of things, and that's okay, yeah, manifesting everything, Like, yeah,

(02:31):
the New Thought movement is like cooked in it. It's
like someone poured it into the stew, and you're like, ah,
that's why this is off.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, I do. And a couple of things I was
thinking about. I mean, first of all, if I could
be I hope this doesn't sound self serving, but I
think one of the kind of providential things that God
did when he put us together to do the podcast
is that I kind of bring the background of not
growing up up in a you know, a Christian setting
and how that changed. But you have the background of

(03:05):
experiencing lots of these things, right, And so I really look,
when I was reading the book, I was really thinking, Wow,
this is this is Brian is really going to be
able to relate to this. I also had a similar
experiences to you about how this book kind of explain
some things that I've been seeing and didn't really know,

(03:27):
like what is the origin of this or something seems
off about this, but I don't quite know what, and
this this book kind of like made that clear. I
remember when I was growing up, we kept finding we
kept hearing these weird sounds in my mom's basement ceiling,
and we kept finding this. I don't even know how
to describe it this like dark goo up there, and

(03:50):
we didn't know what it was, and finally we came
across someone who was aware of what it was, and
it was a snake. And what we were finding up
there was snake feces and what we were hearing was
a snake. So that kind that kind of helped explain
what our observations, you know, And I kind of felt

(04:12):
like that with this book of like with some of
this stuff, some of the stuff I hear Christians say
it seems off, but I'm not always quite sure why
or how to explain why it's off. And I felt
like this book kind of was, you know, like the
person who came along and said, dude, it's a snake.
You know, That's what came to mind when I was
when I was reading it. So I do hope that you,

(04:34):
just with your past experiences and stuff, did find some
of it beneficial.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Well, there's only one way to find out, and that's
to let Melissa into the studio. She's yes, she's knocking
on the screen door and it's rattling, so I'm going
to go let her in.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
Oh hi, hello, Hello.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Well we're actually already recording because we were doing the
intro and they're like, oh, no, she's here.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, I should have warned you about that. No, No,
on the opposite, a procrastinator, I warn't everybody about this.
My editor. I was like, so you want it in
like nine months, you're going to get it in six,
you know.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
There we go.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, with the book, I'm like that. I just I'm like,
if i'm not five to ten minutes early, i'm late.
But for an interview, it has to be three to five.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
I'm period. Anyone who's early is my people.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
So okay, there you go, there you go, and see.
I'm I'm just I'm not a late guy. I'm not
an early guy. I'm just a rate on time guy. Yeah,
like Dandolf exactly exactly. I'm like Dandolf precisely precisely.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
You're basically a wizard.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
You got this is great. You're late, you know, I
feel like some positive affirmations. I'm sorry, I couldn't help it.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
How you manifest it, you know.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Exactly, I'm manifesting myself is a wizard right now.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
This is all audio though, right, no video. It's so
nice when it's like I don't have to it just
takes off the extra edge when it's not right video.
So that's nice.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
You're video. Your videos though I've featured them on my
blog a few times, they always do look at they
always do look and sound good though.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
I'll take that, thank so, yeah, yeah, just.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
I mean there are some that meaning others that you
do not, but yours always, yours always are nice presented well,
I think, thank you.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
I am an amateur and my secret is I don't
know what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
It doesn't show.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
I'll take that, yes, it doesn't show.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, no, I see a little cat up there, like
a cat pictures that nick.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
That is nicky. That was actually for a satire I did.
And it's funny now that you mention it, because it
like Wesley Huff, everybody knows who he is now, Oh
yes they everybody knows who he is now. But I
have been friends with Wes forever, like when he was
the indie band that nobody listened to. Right like now
everybody's like a cool I'm like, he's always been cool.

(06:52):
I've been trying to tell you guys to go watch
his stuff forever. Anyway, he made a funny post before
he broke the Internet about it was kind of satirical
on Instagram and we've done many videos together, like we're buds, right,
And he posted something reasons why the Council of Nicea
or the books that were changed at the Council of
Nicia or anything things that I've interviewed him about many times,

(07:12):
and it was just blank. So I decided, I'm like,
that needs to be a satire, So I did. I
made a satire video of of you know, here's what
happened at the this is why you should trust it
or something like that. I can't even remember what I did.
And I painted a picture of a cat as part
of the wasted time that I had to fill. I
painted Nikki and I named him Nicki because you know,

(07:32):
Nicholas at the Council of Nicea supposedly slapped eraneus.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yes, I mean yes, so.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, that's what that is. I'm also a semi professional artist.
That's what all this is in the background.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Cool.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
So there's there's my long story.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
Well, it's nice to actually finally meet you. You know,
we're in the apologetic sphere and everything, and there are
certain people you never actually connect with or collide with
or correct with, and so it's great.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah, same, yeah, you guys have had Braxton on Trinity
Radio and lots of other people that you know, it's
only a matter of time before we.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
All meet, well all be brogan one day.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
No way, I think I think i'd actually turned that down.
That's a lot of pressure. I feel like Wes was
the perfect person, honestly, like he's qualified, he's well spoken,
he's confident. I'm like, not me. Somebody would take something
I say and completely misunderstand it and then to the
detriment of what I was trying to say. I don't know,
just people are peopling and they people too.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Hard, and that's a good way of putting it.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
I could talk to Joe Rogan on a taxi ride,
but don't put me on a show exactly.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yes, yeah, individually different, But I'm like, I don't think
i'd want that. I feel I'd feel like the platform
wouldn't be worth it. I think it'd be a burden.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, well, we read your book. We liked your book.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
We'll talk about your book. I was telling Chad that
it was like it made me think, oh many things,
but one was so this is what you can call,
you know, Oprah's religion. You know, for I noticed that.
And I've read a lot of self help books maybe
personal improvement productivities sort of stuff, not like manifests kind

(09:16):
of books, but you know the likes of Brian Tracy.
There's even stuff he'd say like there's an inner world
and there's an outer world, there's a you know, the
and then he would talk about the laws of success,
and there's the law of attraction. Then there's a law
of correspondence where your inner world and your outer world
are the same. So we had this book called Maximum Achievement,

(09:38):
and I had only read, like listened to his audio
tapes like sales and stuff, and I like read this
Maximum Achievement book back in like two thousand and two
or something, and it was like, wow, he's like laying
out all the new thought stuff. Yeah, he must have
read all the Dale Carnegie stuff and all. But I
noticed that, Okay, now that's where he's getting all his

(09:58):
metaphysical ideas because.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
This is all like and Wayne Dyer and yeah that's
just the two that I follow.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, all the Nightingale Conant productions for their business development,
that all were big time new thought. Yep.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
Yes, so people think it's new age and that's the
thing is that that's kind of the point, is that
it's been kind of thrown into this bucket of new Age,
and I'm like, no, this is something very different, and
it comes in the language of Christianity and this science
that they like to misuse laws and neuroscience and quantum stuff.

(10:34):
You know, that's hard to verify.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
So you talked about the difference between new Age and
new Thought, because honestly, when I started your book, one
of the things that was revelational for me was, oh,
new Thought is not new Age. I would have said
they were the same thing, honestly, just just confessing my ignorance.
So can you talk about how those are those are different?

Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, this is always no matter what podcasts I do
or video or interview, this is like the number one
question because yeah, uh yeah, I was ignorant too. I
said the same thing, and for many many years I
said I was an ex new Ager, but there was
always something very distinct about what I was in versus
what this was over here. And you know, I started

(11:17):
it on online ministry to Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons. It
was a wonderful time, honestly, but when I would explain
my background. I'm like, yeah, I was a Christian, but
I was cut up in these New Age teachings and
they're like, oh, my goodness, you're in you were in
the new Age? Is this new age? And it would
be like, is yoga new age? I'm like, I don't know.
Is yoga new age? Like what? And then and then

(11:38):
somebody asked me about reiki. That was the first time
that I'm like, why everybody's asking me what these things are.
I've never even heard of reiki. I didn't even know
that yoga would be considered new Age. And then somebody
asked me about sacred geometry, and I'm like, I didn't
take that class in high school. I don't pop in
math be sacred. I don't understand this, you know, it
just things I was not into. I heard of, you know,

(12:01):
psychics and tarot cards and things like that, but I
just thought it was all the same thing. But whatever
I was in looked and sounded Christian. That was a
very different bucket than what they were talking about. So
even from the beginning, I'm like, oh, there's something different,
but it's all New Age, right, Okay, fast forward to

(12:21):
you know, and I'm even looking at all these books
that I grew up with. You don't have video or
but I mean we're talking. I mean, this is just
a tiny little chunk of these books and they weathered,
they like old and ancient.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
And those interrupt Are those the ones that you inherited
from your grandma?

Speaker 3 (12:39):
Yes, and there's a lot of them. There's like, are
these the books? They are? But yeah, they're new thought books?
But I just thought that they were just a higher
version of Christianity. And so to explain the difference, well,
I mean first when I realized there was a difference,
it was just I couldn't unsee it. I realized, oh,
this is a completely different move. I mean, there's some

(13:01):
overlap here, but this is why they are different, and
oh my, this is going to deceive Christians before the
New Age will. And this is what I was in
And why doesn't anybody know about this? Somebody needs to
talk about this. And so I think the first thing
to do in my book, this is why I begin it,
and the way that I do is I explain these
to belief systems, the differences between the two and where

(13:22):
they overlap. And so let's start with New Age real briefly,
think of New Age as more Eastern, like Eastern Mysticism, Hinduism, Buddhism,
and you're taking practices that are maybe original to that
belief system and that strain of thought, and you kind
of westernize them. Okay, so you're taking philosophies and beliefs
that would kind of carry over, and then you have

(13:44):
just flat out witchcraft stuff, sorcery, you know, divination, you know,
psychic mediums, tarot cards, you would have like something crystal energies,
transcendental meditation, star seeds, light work, ancient aliens. I mentioned
a few before, sacred geometry. There's a long list, and
again there's always more in the book. So if people

(14:07):
are like, what, yeah, you might want to look in
the book to get a little bit more. So that's
a little bit more of that bucket. There is some
overlap with spirit contact, because if you read the book,
you know that a lot of the beliefs of New
Thought came from beings that were teaching them what the
Bible really said, right, So, and so there's the overlap

(14:28):
is there. But in New Thoughts case, it was just oh,
this is hidden, esoteric, deeper knowledge about scripture that you
need to tell everybody it's more gnostic in origin. And
what makes it more difficult is that it's metaphysical Christianity.
So you can literally take any Christian concept and put
a metaphysical definition to it, which is beyond the physical.

(14:50):
It's a higher meaning. You have law of attraction, then
you have scientific talk like vibrations, frequencies, a misuse of
science christ consciousness. So the simplest way that I put
it for New Thought is that it's the positive thinking
movement in America with Jesus as its mascot. You know,
positive Christianity without a theological seatbelt or metaphysical Christianity. So

(15:14):
that's the elevator version of the difference.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
I kind of see it like as you're laying out there,
I was trying to think, well, what's the difference, and
I see like that. I love how you say. Then
the Eastern, this description is very good. Eastern spiritual occult
is new age and sort of crystals and tapping into
spiritual energy. And then it seems like on the other
side with the New Thought, it's more mental metaphysical tapping

(15:39):
into universal wisdom, laws of the universe and its thoughts.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
This is what's important is that it grows on this
belief called idealism, which is that kind of what you
were saying before, Brian, exactly what you were saying before.
In fact that you said the law of correspondence, and
I'm like, oh wow, somebody knows what that means. Yeah,
that's actually comes from Swedenborg. And the idea is that
your mental world is true reality and the material world

(16:07):
is a response to that. So in the law of correspondence,
which began with one of the grandfathers of a new thought,
Emmanuel Swedenborg. Think of somebody you know today that's that
wears many hats, you know, an inventor or scientist like
Elon Musk. All right, let's take him. Everybody knows who
he is. I mean, he's respected for the most part.
I mean he's gotten, you know, into politics and stuff.
So there's a you know, but think of let's just

(16:29):
pretend for a second that he's very Christine and his
you know, reputation, and he comes out one day and
he's like, I am now talking to spirits and I'm
writing it down. I'm going to give you this information
and surprise, you know, this is my new thing. And
that was kind of Emmanuel Swedenborg. He was just this
brilliant guy, real pristine reputation, and what he's best known

(16:52):
for are these books where he has this these conversations
with these spirits. And one of the things that his
angels is what he called them, told him is the
law of correspondence, which is there's two realms, a material realm,
and this is where it gets really gnostic, because the
material realm is secondary. It's kind of the it's a

(17:12):
response to the spiritual realm. But however, this spiritual realm
is true reality. If there's something wrong in the material realm,
there's a correspondence in the spiritual realm. So let's take
your body. Okay, if your body is sick materially, that
means there's something not wrong with the body, there's something
wrong with the spiritual version of your body. Okay, So

(17:34):
how do you fix it? You have to fix it
to your thoughts, your words, your feelings, your emotions. You
fix it in the spiritual realm, and then it will
manifest here in the physical realm.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
So for example, right now, I have a head cold.
Oh huh, and I'm not being funny, but no one,
well maybe a little and in new thought, the issue
actually isn't it's meant the germs exactly whatever it's meant to.
And if I think the right thoughts, then I can
think think my way out of this colt.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Your outer is a reflection of your inner world.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yes, thank you, Ryan, Yes, it's it's you have to
correct your wrong thinking.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
I recall when I first became a Christian, it was
it was definitely like first So yeah, like the first
year I was a Christian. My wife had these friends
that lived in another town, and we met them for
dinner and we had just visited Southern Evangelical seminary. Oh
there you go. Well, we we actually hung out with

(18:38):
Norman Geisler. Uh, and so I was telling them that
that doctor Geisler had made a statement when we were
having dinner. Something did the effect.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
What's that such a flex anyway?

Speaker 2 (18:50):
I know. I actually I actually checked this out. They
actually had a suite in their house, and we spent
the night at his house.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yes, slippers as well.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
But he was so cool. He was so cool.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
No, he did it a lot about exactly it's a
lot about his hospitality.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
But I did I did get to go into his
library and hang out in his library. And he he
like pulled books off the shelf and signed him for
my wife and I. So it was really cool, awesome.
But we had just gotten back and I was telling
them that Norman Geisler had made this statement that like
the area we lived in where I live in Maryland,
but he had said that kind of the East Coast

(19:33):
and particularly up north was more like almost like a
spiritual It was spiritually desolate, is the statement he had made.
So I just kind of off handedly said that to
them because I was thinking about it, and they both
their eyes got really big, and they said, You've got
to be really careful with the words that you see,

(19:54):
because those words have power, and when you speak those
words over a land, that's oppressive. And I had never
experienced anything like that.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
You know.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
So I'm driving home and I just looked at my
wife and said, like, what the heck did that mean?
Like what are they talking about? Like my words are
supposed to have some kind of impact on the land,
Like what does that even mean? Well, reading your book,
of course, I reflected back on that and I was like, oh,
now I get it.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
Yes, that's particularly tough too, because that's where we get
really confused and I have a whole chapter. If everybody's confused,
like what, because I have a chapter, chapter eight on
the Word of Faith movement. Because that's the other thing.
I was so confused, you guys when I got out
of New Thought thinking it was a new age. I
remember thinking, Okay, I just left speaking things into existence.

(20:48):
I repented of you know, the law of attraction. You know,
my words got a sovereign. My words have power in
the sense that, don't be a jerk. There's not a
spiritual you know back behind what you're saying. You're not
a co creator with God in your words in that sense. Okay,
I mean God has the stop sign. You are not,
you know, on that level of God. Because this is

(21:09):
what Christians will say, Oh, I'm not divine. I'm not
saying that I'm God. But when you say things like, oh,
I share that I'm a co creator with God, I
share that power. He gives us that power, you know
what I mean, it's a little sneaky. I'm like, no, no, no, no,
you're not. You do not have the same power as God.
But then I'm leaving all this right. And I was
in New Thought seeing that in that that movement, in

(21:31):
that belief system before I ever saw it in the church.
And then I'm looking and I'm like, whoa, what do
you guys? What is this? What is happening? Same scriptures,
same order of method. I'm like, what is happening? It
took me years to unravel the connection. And that's what
that chapter is is. Aha, I saw it. I see it. Aha.

(21:51):
That's how it got in there. And it goes all
the way back. There's a historical connection all the way
back to this man named E. W. Kenyon, who undoubtedly
is the great grandfather of the Word of Faith movement,
and he is the smoking gun because he has taken
the metaphysical New Thought wealth and health and prosperity teachings

(22:13):
from New Thought, which by the way, came from new Thought.
The health and wealth prosperity teachings that we see in
Word of Faith actually began originated with New Thought philosophy,
metaphysics and taking those scriptures and applying it and saying, hey,
this is the Christ, like this is this is something

(22:33):
that Jesus was trying to say. And then oop here
comes Kenyan and he's like, why are they having so
many results over in this area? No, No, we need
to christianize this, this is for the church. And then
here comes Kenneth Hagen. He's reading Kenyan and then ken Hagen,
this is like the elevator version of this. It's so

(22:54):
such a straight line. Hagen is over here just you know,
saying that God told him the things. God is saying,
I need to preach about health and prosperity. God is saying,
God told me. This is what this means. And then
that's that is that's the floodgates, that's how this happened.
That's how we hear it, in the manner in which
we hear it, and why it sounds like new thought, which,

(23:16):
by the way, let me clarify the Word of Faith movement.
There are aspects of it that are very, very orthodox,
and that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is
that it's a third new Thought. Okay. So if you
had the Faith Cure Movement of the eighteen hundred, its
Pentecostalism and new Thought, and you mix it together and
they could have a baby, it would be the Word

(23:36):
of Faith movement. Okay. So people that say that it's
all it's a cheap shot to say that it's all
demonic or all heretical or all new thought. It's not
people get saved in this in these areas. I don't
think they stay there. I think they outgrow it. But
I do think that there's a there is a difference
that we need to that I need to make there
and clarify.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
So can I I have just a clarification question, because
you know how you were talking about how if you
were on Joe Rogan, somebody would take like one little
thing you said and turn it into something. Yep, you said.
Can you clarify what you mean by the idea that
within the Word of Faith movement that there are some
things that are Orthodox? Yes, because I'm afraid somebody's going

(24:18):
to hear that there.

Speaker 3 (24:19):
Are some things there.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, I'm endorsing the Word of Faith, you know what
I mean. I'm trying to protect you from that that is.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
The world we live in.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
And I know that's not what you mean because I
read your book, So oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
I think, yeah, it's quite simple. Actually, I think that
that's very clear that there are some things that are Orthodox.
Very clearly they would say and endorse. Oh yeah, Jesus
is the Son of God. Uniquely, you thought wouldn't say that, oh, yeah,
you know, this is the gospel, you know, and they
they'd give a clear gospel presentation. Go to Joelstein. I'm
not I'm not endorsing Joel Ostein. But if you go

(24:54):
to a Lakewood service, they give a clear gospel presentation
by golly, I that the rest of the pulpit needs help.
But that's an area where people will go to Lakewood,
they will hear a clear gospel presentation and they will
be saved. You will not get that in a Unity center,
in a New Thought center, they will endorse the Trinity.
They will sit there and give a clear understanding of

(25:16):
what the trinity is, you know what I mean. So
there's a levels there that we cannot sit there and say,
and I just think that's factual. I think that's very
hard to argue. However, however, this is the problem with
these teachings. Okay, the examples that I've been giving, they're
getting really more colorful. And the latest one, I was
having coffee with a friend and I'm like, oh, that's

(25:37):
a great example. I might use this to make my point.
Do you remember, I don't know how old you guys are,
but do you remember like listening to a song in
high school and you're jamming, okay, and you're getting down,
you're singing the songs and you love the beat, and
you think it means one thing. Okay, you think it
means something. Okay, let's take the Policeman. What is that song?
Every breath you take, every movie you make, I'm watching you. Yeah, yeah,

(25:59):
everybody thinks that's a romance song. Okay, it's like not,
all right, steeing is over here, just like floored that
people play this at their weddings and stuff. In other words,
my point is you are taking a something that's designed
to mean something, all right. You're taking a song that's
designed to have a message, but people are taking it

(26:20):
and they're redefining it to mean something that they feel
and see. Okay. In other words, say that you're a
Christian and you're listening to this and you're like, oh,
we're playing this at our wedding or let you know,
whatever it is, and it's like you don't realize that
you're kind of signing up for something with a different meaning.
Another example is a cookbook. I'm doing a Napoleon Hill
study right now, and I'm like, you're reading thinking gro rich.

(26:42):
You're reading this book that hasn'trinsically good things in it, right,
some of it is true, some of it is true,
some of it is good, some of it is helpful,
great business advice you know that I cannot disagree with. However,
in taking those beliefs, you are unknowingly signing up for
something else that goes along with it, and an alternative

(27:03):
spirituality that goes along with it that you don't realize
is going along with it. Like following a cookbook recipe
that is Keto or Atkins or whatever it is that
in the long run you should not follow. But you're
following the recipes because they're good for you, but you
don't realize that you're signing up for this thing underneath it.

(27:24):
That's the problem is that if people go to a
word of faith the church. Okay, this is to bring
it full circle. You're going to a word of faith
the church. You hear a gospel presentation, Amen, hollylujah. If
you are saved, I will be the first in line
to give you a high five and welcome you into
the family. But then I'll try to get you out
of that church, and you're gonna be like, hold on, no, no,
I heard the gospel here. Joel seems a good man.

(27:47):
Kenneth Copeland, he's a good man. I heard the gospel here,
and that validates what they're saying. Okay, so here's the
problem right here is that you hear the good, you
hear the truth, and then along with that you hear
the garbage. But you have a hard time telling the
difference between the two because of that first part that
kind of hooked you in, and then you you therefore

(28:11):
take everything from that source as being valid. That's what
I'm trying to do in this book is differentiate, like, hey,
there's some good things here, even in the self help movement,
which is undergrided and foundational from uh, the self help
movement is foundational with new thought authors. And again, what
you're doing, and Brian, you're such a good example of

(28:31):
this because you were you were, you know, following a
dude that had good things to say that probably helped
a lot of people. But along with those came affirmations.
Along with that came this new thought belief undergirding those
lessons that you don't realize you're signing up for.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
So yeah, well, you know, between Holly Pivot and the
Guide it and then your book, you know, between the
NAR the Word of Faith movement with the self help
because you know, I was cringing, You've connected so many
dots though, cringing when you were talking about E. W.
Kenyon because the quote unquote Bible College. I went to.

(29:11):
One of the first books we were assigned was an E. W.
Kenyan book. Really really I remember reading it thinking.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
It kind of I noticed how you were reacting to that,
I thought when she was talking, and I was like,
why having such a strong reaction to that.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
I know, dude, because now I remember that, I thought, Wow,
this E. W. Kenyan book is unlike anything I've ever read,
you know, And I suppose the thing that I think
there's overlap too. I mean with a Word of Faith Naar,
they overlap. But there's so many new thought things that
come in and influenced even the way that the preaching

(29:49):
goes in Word of Faith NAR churches. And this is
my observation is that in new thought, the more esoteric
and new meaning you can ascribe to something, and the
more wow like, the more sparks to can fly when
you get your revelation from whatever text like It was
the coolest thing when you could go to church and

(30:11):
you could walk away saying, wow, I've never heard anyone
preach that verse like that. And it was always about
taking this verse and this verse, and it's like redditituwi
where he's throwing in all the ingredients. I'm gonna throw
this verse in and this verse in and boom, look
at the flavor explosion, you know. And that's how it was.
With so many sermons and teachings I would hear within

(30:34):
the nar it had that sort of new thought vibe
of like this is special knowledge, and there's the gnosticism aspect,
and it was all about empowerment self. And so your
book really shows how this is a self centered self
empowerment self. Yeah, it's it's oh man. Anybody has been

(30:58):
into Word of Faith movement needs to read this because
then they'll realize that they've been fleeced and that all
these things have been twisted. And it can see the
origin of it, you know, when you see how this
came about and went into the church and then it
became the Word of Faith moment, they should just scrap
everything and level the ground and rebuild and ditch all

(31:21):
of that and rebuild.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
So one thing, Melissa, I wanted to say that I
thought the most powerful points that you made in your
book was something to what Brian was just saying about
how this movement is so you centered, right, it's about you,
and how you connected that to the interaction that Eve
had with the serpent in the garden, and essentially it's

(31:44):
saying like you can be God like God. Yeah, like God,
And I think that's that was really powerful for me.
So would you two both then? I mean, I know
we're interviewing Melissa, but either one of you can answer
this after Brian just shared that. So I don't have
the background that you all do with New Thought and

(32:05):
new Apostolic Reformation and all of that. So if I'm
understanding you correctly, it's less about Okay, let's look at
this passage. Let's understand who the author is, why he
wrote what he wrote. Let's let's look at the context. Right,
Let's let's exogemically understand it. What's prized is not that,
but what's prized is that new knowledge that, oh my gosh,

(32:28):
God has shown something to me or to that person
that I've never seen before. So whether or not that's
actually what the author meant is kind of secondary, is that.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
They would say, yeah, and you're talking about Word of
Faith like.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
Nar yeah, yeah, yeah, and again they overlap, but yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
No Harmoneudis is not something that for It's an experience
of God. It's a move of God. Okay, so and Brian,
you can tack onto this when I'm I would love
to hear your thoughts on this too. But yeah, for
if you're in the Word of Faith movement and you
have your Bible, you are basically seeing it through a
lens of prosperity, health and wealth. You are seeing it
through a lens like Kreflo Dollar and then Tdjkes. They

(33:10):
will both say that Jesus was rich. How do they
get to that? Because there has to be an underlying
worldview that is informing them. It's is to Jesus like
it's iogetical. You are taking this preliminary belief and shoving
it into scripture. You are not trying to take from
scripture what it actually means in the context in which

(33:31):
it was written. Because you have heard from God, because
you have this experience and this was the allure. Okay.
New thought was revolutionary because there was this new movement
that allowed you to have a personal experience with God,
and it took out this middleman called the Bible or

(33:53):
a redefinition of it. You didn't have to go to
a priest. And we take that for granted today that
you know, like our feelings, for example, can be considered
you know, you know, litmus tests on some level, and
we love, we should love, and you know, feel our
emotions and stuff. But there was a level of Godhood
that was given to feelings and experience, okay. And so

(34:14):
the more experiences you have, the more spiritual you are.
And if you believe that God speaks to you and
you're reading a scripture and you're like, oh, there has
to be a deeper meaning to that, you will interpret
it in such a way to meet like, Okay, there's
life and death in our tongue. That means, don't be
a jerk, like we're saying, be careful with your words,

(34:38):
because the words that you say are harmful are uplifting.
It's so simple, and this is why I use the
example in the book of the Indiana Jones example where yeah,
he's in the back, you know, and you see all
these shiny chalish chalices and they're bedazzled and they're beautiful,
and they're fancy and they make you feel special. But
the cup of a carpenter is plain and simple and easy, okay,

(35:00):
And that's what they don't want. There has to be
this extra thing, this more and more and more and
more and more. In fact, Brian, you can jump in
here at this point, because I would say that more
is more power. There's a lust for power. Is like
the song and dance of Word of faith and nar
what do you think about that?

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Oh yeah, I mean one of the things that there
was a particular book I remember who by Robert s
Lerden called The Price of Spiritual Power, you know, and
that was a big influence on everyone who went to
where I went to in that time. And you know,
basically the premises the more you put in, the more
you get out. It was a very more spiritual stuff.

(35:43):
You do praying, we're working, you know, basically you can
be a Christian Green Beret. You know, you don't have
to be a weak Christian. You can you can pay
this spiritual price by praying in tongues really hard and
all this sort of thing. And when it comes to preaching,
you know, life and death and the power tongue. I
I don't know how many times I've heard that verse

(36:04):
where you know your words having power to create. You're
made in the image of God. What does that mean?
You can create? You know in your words are the power?
You know I could, I could do my own sermon.
You know I've heard a thousand times.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Right, let me ask you a question on that. So,
if so when you heard that, where did you think
it came from?

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Well before I heard the word of hermeneutics, I just
these are big churches, they're successful, they're prosperous. Everyone's standing up, clapping,
saying amen, bringing their money to the front. You get
caught up in I mean, the music's great, and it's
like amen Amen. Okay, Well, I guess this is you know,
I had genuine faith in Jesus. I was genuinely saved,

(36:46):
like you say, and you know, there was tons of
positive thing and then it's like, okay, get ready for
all this extra garbage and you just think, well, this
is just part of it. I guess this is this
is part of it.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
Learn like Hermeneutics, like what that actually means? Right?

Speaker 1 (37:05):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (37:06):
Yeah, where did you think? Okay, that's a unique take
on That's just one scripture. We could take many, but
that's a unique take on how they're defining that. Did
you ever think where did that come from? All these
preachers health and wealth prosperity preachers in this entire movement
and the offshoot of NAR which is, you know, basically
Word of Faith with steroids and deliverance ministries and all

(37:28):
the other things, new aposolic records, why yeah, Like, why
do they all have the same exact definition when the
Bible hermoneutically says completely different. Where did that come from?

Speaker 2 (37:40):
I love how we've transitioned from. Now Melissa is interviewing
Brian and I'm just sitting here like this is great man,
Like you know, I'm just.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
Going like, this is how I did the research for
my book.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
You kind of traced it back to and I forget
his name. There was there's dudes like Mesmer, but there
was ye get the particular name. There was one primary
guy who was a big deal, and then he Mary
baby Maker Eddie was an offshoot as well, Phineas Quimby.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah, And I don't know if you're familiar with like
the YouTube channel Messed Up Church and Long for Truth.
They kind of do the origins of the Word of
Faith movement in movement, and they talk a lot about
That's like about a year or so ago, I started
hearing them talk about Phineas Quimby and Mesmer and how

(38:32):
the tactics used in it, say a healing service, for instance,
are all the same things that were being imitated or
emulated because they saw Phineas Quimby doing it, you know
what I mean. Like, but these psychosomatic yeah, yeah, if
you can self healing through the power of your thoughts
and your words, yes, And it's like, okay, now, this

(38:52):
is why they're healing services like this because on one
level it's working or seeming to work, you know what
I mean, Because you can't deny some experiences. And I'm
not saying people are like having broken bones mended or
anything like that.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
No, don't you when she loved to see that though,
you know. And that's that was the correlation issue that
I had. Was Okay, so I can make the argument like, look,
this looks exactly the same that's happening over here in
the church, and they'll say, okay, yeah, this is the
authentic version though, But I'm like, no, what I wanted
to do is make a more direct line between the

(39:31):
New Thought movement and the Word of Faith movement. And
that was really what was difficult to do because you know,
people can make the claim and you know, at the
sake of not committing a fallacy. It's like, you can't
just causation, correlation and all the things, and going all
the way back to that I think is important. And
the reason why I was asking all of that was
because I was wondering if you had ever at any

(39:53):
point wondered where that came from, like what was informing
their hermeneutic, like what was informing it? And my argument
in the book is that it's new thought, like that's
what's informant. That's clearly you can't say it's new age.
You have to go all the way back to this, like, oh,
this is how and why they took scripture in the
way that they did and redefined it to mean what

(40:14):
it meant.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
So I have a question. Obviously, one of the points
you make in the book is how there are sincere believers,
yes right, who find themselves attracted to this or even
wrapped up in it, And yeah, exactly without even knowing it.
So do you think that's because they are at bottom

(40:36):
seeking God. Perhaps you spoke of like how you know
almost they equivocate between if I have more experiences, then
I'm more spiritual. Right, So do you think it's perhaps
that they they're desiring that deeper experience and they just
kind of take the wrong route, if you will, or
how do you think Christians get entangled in this? I
guess that was a very wording way of asking.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
No, that's that was a great way to ask two things. One,
you're exactly right. I do think it's a lust for power.
There is an importance that's placed. I remember very specifically
thinking I am very spiritual, super spiritual, because if I
had more experiences, that equaled the more powerful I was,

(41:19):
the more important I was spiritually. Okay, So there is
definitely a yearning for power, which, by the way, I
have a theory about why you'll see tell me if
you guys, if you see this, but if you'll see
an ex new ager who struggles and goes one of
two ways. One, they pendle them all the way over
to hyper charismania. And I've always wondered why why do

(41:41):
they do that? And I think one of the reasons
is power, you get the same power that you had
in the New Age. You're basically going to new Thought.
You're trying to come out of the New Age. You're
repenting of that, and you're speaking out against the New Age.
But you're over here adopting new Thought beliefs thinking they're Christian.
Why because they give you the same power you had
an New Age. That is my theory on that. Or

(42:02):
they go like on the far other end of just
being uh maybe hyper critical, maybe they're uh, you know, uh,
they become reformed, hyper reformed. Let me be clear, because
I love a lot of a lot of reformed brothers
and sisters. I love a lot of charismatic brothers and sisters.
I'm talking extremes, you know, hyper cessationists, you know, and

(42:23):
you know and so. But I think that that's one
element of it. But let me continue on. So yeah,
power I think is part of it and the other
part of it. This is very interesting, the nature of
these beliefs. Okay, and Brian, again, you've been in you've
been you have a messy spiritual background. It's quite helpful
for me in this interview because you can relate, we
both can. But the nature of these beliefs does not

(42:46):
allow for doubt. Okay, you're you have no choice but
to say that it works. You have no choice but
to live in such a way that this mindset that
you're in is on a vibration frequency or it's it
has a creative power that you have whatever it is
that you are believing for. Okay, this is how. This

(43:09):
is the law of manifestation. This is the law of attraction.
Because if your mind creates your reality, you must control
your mind at all times. What does that mean? Thinking positive,
not doubting, because it's in the Bible or something, right like,
you can't have Matthew seven to seven, ask, believe, receive
right there, it's in the Bible. I am asking, I

(43:30):
am believing, and I must receive if I don't doubt. Okay.
So and then you're told it's not only spiritual, but
then it's scientific. So then you're told there's a vibrational
frequency to that thought. Neuroscience says this, okay, and you're like,
oh man, this is this is gonna work. I'm gonna manifact.
I'm gonna bring into my reality money, riches, romance, health,

(43:54):
whatever it is, which, by the way, I'm so confused.
Why it's never something like patience or like how can
I be a better wife? How can I be a
better mom? Why is it always something for the flesh.
I think that's very interesting. But you've trained yourself to
be that way, so when somebody comes to critically analyze

(44:15):
what you're doing, you will insist that it's working, over
and over and over again because you cannot do otherwise.
So you're told you're in the cycle of deception because
you think your way into it and you're scared to
think your way out of it because critical thinking is
negative thinking, and negative thinking will keep you from your blessing.
So it's a mixture of book.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, there's there's a real problem with with the like
when you're in the movements, I think because they lock
you in because you can't accept any criticism of You
can't have critical thinking because you're doubting. You can't speak
like you know you're I think you need to see
a doctor. No, you know, I can't see a doctor.
That would be in lack of faith. So there's always

(44:58):
like you get locked in, like you know you don't
have a devil, Well, that's the devil speaking that I
don't have a devil. You know, there's like you can't
everything that would maybe you know, maybe you need to
think critically. Oh, you've got a critical spirit like you.
There's you're impervious to any external way to draw you
out of it. It's just by the grace of God

(45:18):
that you can get out of some of these things.
I think.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
And so then if I'm not in on this view,
if I'm not experiencing health, wealth, yes, whatever, then it's
my fault.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Yes, Inevitably, you must come back to the fact that
because you have control, you have the power. And that's
really why the book is labeled the way it was.
The original title was the oldest Lie in the book,
and then my publisher came back saying it's a little cliche.
We might want to get something a little bit more unique,
and they were one hundred percent right, and so happy
Lies end up being the title. But it really is

(45:51):
about the oldest lie in the book, about this yearning
for power, and so whenever you are told you have
new thought, would call it the divine spark. You have
this divine spark, this divine divinity within that you can awaken,
and once you do, you have the power. Okay, this
is what Jesus was really trying to teach. This is

(46:12):
what he was really trying to say. So you can
do what Jesus did, and some you can do more
than he did. Sound familiar, right, It's I think it's
John in the Book of John. It's the same scriptures
that they'll take, but new thought would say the same thing.
And what they will say is that anything that's come
upon you that is either you're poor or you're unhealthy,

(46:33):
is because of your wrong thinking. You are entitled to
health and wealth. You are a co creator with God.
So if you are creating, then that means that whatever's
in your life you have brought to yourself. So you're
exactly right. But then but then they'll repackage that saying, oh,
but this is good news because that means that you

(46:55):
can change the way you're thinking. Now that you know
the secret, now that you know what this is says,
you can now reframe your mind and reform it. I
see you shaking your head and I get it, you know, Oh.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
It's just it. The more you guys are talking about it,
the more I just think, like, this is just so.
I mean, it's a strong word to use, but it's
so evil, like you can't it's like you can't think
your way out of it. It's so defeatist because if
you're not experiencing these you know, so called successes and
having these deeper experiences, than it's all your fault and

(47:28):
it just leaves you to be the arbiter of whether
or not you're going to be successful or not. And
then what happens when you're not? Like where do you go?
Which is when you talk about which is why you
talk about in the book, there's that there's so much
freedom and being able to cry out to God and
say I can't do this exactly.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
And you know what, they talk so much about hell,
and I'm like, who needs hell? When you have New Thought?
Who needs that? You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (47:51):
It's like here, it's like a mental health.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
It's a mental work space, it's a works based religion.
It's all it is, you know. And let me read
you this quote there. I have this here about what
you just said about the health and whatever it is.
This is from I read like boring new Thought history
books in my free time, and this is a paraphase
quote that I'm going to read. I think it might

(48:13):
be helpful for people to understand the origin of this.
For today's new thought moguls, every physical condition, whether caused
by germs, disease, or body dysfunction, is believed to have
a spiritual connection to some form of mental unhappiness or
negative belief. Okay, the properties of matter, Remember, the material

(48:35):
world are ideas in the mind. The world is a
mental picture, and disease is a manifestation of the lack
of harmony existing in the mind. To heal a disease,
one simply needs to lift the mind above mind over matter.
By the way, is a very new thought sentence. One

(48:56):
simply needs to lift the mind above the level of
physical sensations like pain and illness, as they cannot exist
on a higher mental plane. So, in other words, the
cure yeah, for all this it addresses. It's addressing the
inner state where it is original in your mind. That's

(49:17):
how they see it.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
What if somebody is listing right now, and you know,
could I could easily imagine somebody listening thinking, Okay, I
might be I think I might be influenced by some
of this, because one of the great points you make
in the book is a lot of believers are influenced
by it. And they don't even know it, ye, which
makes it just so you know, nefarious. But how would

(49:39):
they begin to differentiate between what is authentic Christianity, authentic theology,
and what is this what I would call counterfeit new thought? Right?
How do they begin to differentiate? Like, what's one or
two places it could start so that they can make
sure they're not falling victim to this. Well.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
First number one, and give yourself some grace. I think
that I think that a lot of people that might
be believing this I felt. I The first emotion I
felt was deep embarrassment. I'mli how could I have not
known this? I want to chart you guys. I want
to church regularly for years, volunteered. I was like in

(50:20):
small groups, and I believe in this stuff. Okay, I
mean give yourself some grace. Number one. The first thing
I would say is you gotta know what new thought
even is. And that's why I wrote this book. I
like lost my mind to write this book because the
first thing that went through my mind when I saw
it was why is it No nobody's talking about this?
And this is my so personal like, this is my
personal background, this is my personal spiritual background. So I

(50:43):
think in God's providence, I think there was a need
to blow the lid off of this thing and be like, hey,
this isn't New Age. Something's off. But you can't throw
everything in the new age bucket because this is made
to look Christian. It'll deceive you before the New Age
ever will. Here's what this is, Okay, learn about it.
In fact, that's my call to action at the very
end of the book is take the baton run with it.

(51:04):
I mean, there's way smarter people to talk about this
than me. I mean, you have Craig Hazen I think
he did as a doctoral dissertation on Phineas Quimby. You
have this guy named Kevin Smith who I used for
a lot of my research in chapter eight on the
Word of Faith. He's like, way smarter than me. I mean,
you have these little these Christians. Oh who is it,
Doug growthis pretty sure? Yeah, Like you have these people

(51:26):
out there, and I just had a very unique look
at the personal aspect of it. Know what it is,
research it. Read this book, Go read boring history books
about it, Go watch you know, YouTube videos about what
it is. Go look at the stuff that you don't
agree with. This is what apologetics is. I mean, go

(51:46):
look at it and understand it so that when you
see it you're like, oh, I know what that is. Okay,
I understand now, so know what new thought is. And
the third thing I'll tell you must be very very
very simple, but really know your scripture. Really know what
the Bible says, get good hermeneutics, Understand what it says,
why it says it, in the way that it says it.

(52:07):
I do think that we think we read our Bible
and study it maybe in our heads, but I don't
think we do it enough. I think that there's a
level of daily Bible reading and study that I think
will really help us and memorizing scripture, you know, I
mean I for me, what was hard for me personally
was I had to go through and unlearn the scriptures

(52:30):
that were abused by new thought. Matthew seven seven, Mark
eleven twenty four. You have Romans twelve, you had Proverbs.
You know, power life and death is in the tongue
and all these you James, I think it was James
one or two, you know, talking about your tongue and
the power of your words, like all these misused scriptures
and then the scriptures that misuse love a lot, because

(52:52):
love in new thoughts is defined as a frequency of power,
which again is another reason why it's hard for them
to doubt, because you want to constantly be on these
feelings of positivity and so on, learning and relearning, asking
lots of questions, putting yourself in a position where you
can be teachable while having discernment.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
So give grace to yourself. Know what new thought is
by researching it and of course read happy lies. Ye
know the Bible. Make sure you understand the science of
biblical interpretation, hermeneutics, and then of course memorized scripture. Ask
good questions. Yeah, okay, all right, that's helpful.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Good, I hope.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
So one thing I thought was fascinating and I because,
oh yeah, there it is. Is you mentioned thinking Grow Rich.
And I don't know how many people I knew who
they would read that book, who were within multi level
marketing groups? And what's the book called Think and Grow Rich?

Speaker 3 (53:53):
I'm doing a five on him right now. Actually, actually
I already filmed it. I am editing it currently.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Oh cool. Well, talk a little bit of about like
what you see with these like multi level marketing and
sales guys and whatnot. And I mean because those things
tend to be sort of cultish in themselves, but then
they're using this sort of material as they're reading books,
and it's kind of like, well, this is like their
cult material, you know, So what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3 (54:21):
If you guys don't know. I also did a whole
deep dive on MLMs on this level. I yes, I
did a whole deep dive. It's two hours long. And
because I again, it's one of those things where I'm like, man,
this is a niche topic. I mean, you have an MLM,
but I'm like, what's this over here? Why are you?
Why are you using a new thought book that's suggested

(54:43):
which is really required reading? And what's going on? Why
are there so many new thought books used in MLMs?
And so I did a deep dive and it was
so much fun to research MLMs because you have you
have this again, the nuance. Okay, this is what's different.
I guarantee you there's probably somebody listening who is like,

(55:03):
what's an MLM, And then you have somebody listening who's
probably in one number one. An MLM is a multi
multi level marketing company think amway Mary kay Urbal life.
You know these businesses which aren't really businesses, uh in
my opinion, where you take it and you try to
sell it to somebody and you tell people, yeah yeah,

(55:24):
essential oil that's what it is in del Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Speaker 3 (55:29):
You know what I'm here to say, you know, I
mean sometimes they have a really good product. Okay, sometimes
they have a genuinely good product. And what sets them
apart from a pyramid scheme is that they say that
you can make you can make residual money. Okay, there's
a product being sold and you're making money from it,
all right, Therefore it's not a pyramid scheme. And I'm like, okay, no,

(55:51):
it's just the legal pyramid scheme. But that's something I
get into in my video. I had to really be
fair when I did this. It's in four parts. What
is a MLM? And then is it a pyramid scheme?
Are they cultish? And then the fourth one is the
new thought connections to MLMs because the books that they
have them read. This is very interesting. Remember before how

(56:12):
we were talking about the positive mindset, about how you
these beliefs structure you in such a way where you
need to be a boss babe all the time. You
have to have a positive mindset, you have to have
a you have to believe in yourself. It's very very motivational.
It's it postures itself in this very positive way, and

(56:33):
then you will get rich for it. Okay, it's sold
to you in the language of prosperity. And so where
that comes from are a lot of these new thought
books that are in these MLMs, who are mostly women
who read it and they apply it to their lives.
And I tell you, if you are not an extrovert,
it's like really hard to do in my opinion, because

(56:54):
you have to really wake up every day and have
a mental fight with yourself on how to be this
really perky, positive person all the time. And so that's
a whole other side issue. But that is an issue
that you have with a lot of these books, these
new thought books that are in MLMs. Think and Grow
Rich is one of them. And one of the issues

(57:15):
I have with that book in particular isn't because the
advice is bad and Napoleon Hill, oh, my word, was
an absolute scumbag. I had absolutely no idea how awful
person Napoleon Hill. Yes, I went in thinking i'd have
like this boring biography of Napoleon Hill. It was an
adventure of my friends. I'm like, oh, you're a con man,

(57:35):
you are a scam artist, you're a liar, you're a cheat.
You are Oh it was bad and so I it
was a lot longer. But then you get into Think
and Grow Rich and the concepts in there and how
it even got written. He said he met Andrew Carnegie,
which he didn't. All the people he met in there,
he didn't. But it's a creepy book. It's actually a
really creepy book where there's this chapter where he's actually

(57:58):
visiting with what he calls his cabinet, and it's really
what he what he calls it is the divine Intelligence,
which is a new thought term.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
This is like your mastermind counsel sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
Yes, yeah, so he calls it the mastermind. Which there's
so much to go on with this, but the beliefs
in that book, people don't realize our new thought. He's
basically think telling you there's a secret throughout this book
of how to accumulate riches, and if you see it,
you know, if you're ready for it, you'll see it.
And in the first line in the book, he gives
it away. It's that thoughts are things. And anybody who's

(58:37):
either read my book or has been any way involved
in new Thought knows that that's like the first commandment
of new Thought, thoughts are things. I'm like, oh, okay,
so it's the law of attraction basically, you know, it's
that you control your thoughts. You'll you'll have you know,
whatever it is that you're wanting for. But the way
that he puts it is that there's this divine intelligence,

(58:57):
which a lot of Christians read and think, oh, that's
just God, that's his word for God. No, no, that's
an alternative word for God. And you thought, and remember, Chad,
in the beginning, I was talking to you about how
maybe it wasn't you, maybe it was on another interview.
But you have access to this mind, okay, and the
thoughts that come to you on a whim out of
nowhere are actually from the divine mind.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
From the super conscious mind, from the.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
Super conscious minds. And this meeting that he has with
these other people, and I'm talking Abraham Lincoln, Henry Ford,
Jesus Christ, like this cabinet of advisors that he has,
he has actual conversations with and they give him advice
and his mind he's actually accessing their minds. That's eternal. Okay.

(59:41):
So I know, dude, yes, and I know, and this
is the thing, okay. And that's just a little tidbit
of what this is. Why are Christians reading this thinking
oh this is great? I mean I don't get it. Yeah,
And there's a whole other aspect to it. He went
straight occult. Later there's a book called Outwitting the Devil
where he's having a conversation. Yeah, the whole book is
him having a conversation with Satan. And then later on

(01:00:04):
he just comes outright basically saying that, yeah, these are
like beings that I talk to. There's a whole thing
with that. And I'm like, okay, let's use this center
a boss, babe Christian girl MLM. Let's because it has
great business advice. Do you see what I mean? By
taking the great business advice and tacking on this other
spirituality that can shipwreck your faith? Like bad theology hurts people,

(01:00:25):
and that's bad theology.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
But you know in all these like success productivity sales
sort of books, they all seem to reference Napoleon Hill.
It seems to me. But also James Allen, there was
a book he wrote called As a Man Thinks, As
a Man thinketh Now here's a perfect example of how
they'll take a scripture and make it work for new thought.

(01:00:48):
As a man think you in his heart? So is he? Oh, well,
what that means is thoughts are things, and this is
going to manifest your outer world. You know, this is
the last thing that proverb means, you know. But I
mean proverbs, you don't take them as like universal laws.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
Of the desires of the world.

Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
Or the universe, you know. But yeah, insane, Chad.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
Everybody should see Chad's face right now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Yeah, sorry, I'm just I'm a little out of my
depth here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
I you mentioned like we should, you know, it's nice
not to have to record the video, And I was
thinking this whole time, like if we did, we could
have so many thumbnails with me almost crying and you know,
face palm, Chad's confusion face, you know, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Very entertaining.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
I mean, I just I guess the theme that keeps
coming back into my head is just how important biblical literacy.

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
Yes, right, because one of my things is read your Bible,
like understand.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
It the way that you guys characterize Napoleon Hill. I mean,
I'm sitting here thinking like, and you know, you asked
the question out loud, like why are Christians reading this
and thinking this is great?

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
And and I mean, yeah, I just keep going back to, well, gosh,
if they were following that one inciple that you laid
out about knowing your Bible and understanding hermeneuticts, well, and let.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
Me add another one to that, be careful of your
your lust for power. I think that's that's a big thing,
is that that can be very difficult for Christians to think, Oh,
I'm not I'm not doing this. I'm being you know,
I'm being christ Like, I'm being humble, Like it's pride
in the name of humility. That's what this is. So
it guises itself as something biblical and good and and

(01:02:27):
you know, humble, but it's not. I mean, you have
to be mindful of your yearning and your lust for
spiritual power. It'll get you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
It's the thing that what stuck out too that I
noticed in the book was this idea of being able
to wield a power like I can manifest something, I
can imagine something and make it happen. It was like, Okay,
if you go deep enough, you can have this ability
to wield this to get what you want. And you know,

(01:02:59):
we talk about overlaps so much. So you see that
in the New Age, you see spirit guides, you see
it in the Naar, like oh, I'm a I'm moving
up the ladder, I'm I'm an apostle, I'm a prophet,
I mean this and that. And it's like I'm supposed
to be washing people's feet here, you know, And yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
I think that they are. That's hard is that That's
what's hard, is that there's a kidding of ourselves, a
suppression if you will. And again it goes back to
the way that these beliefs are designed to take away
your ability to think. And because thinking is like this
the unspiritual thing. It's like they'll say that they're not

(01:03:37):
doing it, but they are. If you are told that
the way that you think can hold you back from
a spiritual experience with God, well guess what they are
holding that for ransom. It's tricky, and that's where it
gets a little cultish, you know. And so that's really
what I would say is that God, here's the thing,
you know, what here? You know, what, what is the
first commandment? If Jesus Christ himself saying okay, love the

(01:04:02):
Lord your God with all your heart and your mind,
if you don't have your mind involved, you are breaking
that commandment.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
Well, I think that people they want to sit over
here and say, you know, it's all about you know,
don't put God in a box and experience this and
experience that. You know what, There is a mind that
God gave you and it's not bad. Same with emotions.
I think that there's an overreach with saying that all
emotions are bad or you know, they will deceive you. Yeah,

(01:04:32):
your emotions will deceive you and your mind can keep you. Okay,
you got to control both. You've got to practice both.
But if you're told that your mind is evil in
order to have an experience with God, then that's just
that is a break of that commandment and it will
deceive you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
You know what I found illuminating in that last bit
you were saying, is I was I asked the question
earlier about you know, are Christians attracted to New thought
because of their desire for a deeper experience with God? Right?
But I've never thought or even you know quivocated that

(01:05:10):
it could be the idea of there they're actually it's
a lust for power.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
I think it's a never yes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
You know, I've never thought of it like that, of
like how you know, Oh gosh, it's so sad.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
All they want is a deeper experience with God. And
in some cases I'm sure that's right they genuinely do,
but I've never thought like, oh, but that can become
why do they want that experience?

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
And it's also I think an important thing with that
as well, is they don't feel as loved by God
many times, unless they're having a supernatural experience. They don't
feel like God. You know, if I'm not constantly on
this high of having God give me this or more
and more and more of that, then I must not

(01:05:56):
be as important as so and so over here who's
having every night and dreams like it's it gives you
this hamster wheel to run on, and it gives you
this illusion that God doesn't love you as much if
you're not having so it's power, but it's also your
own emotional pain that's informing this, that needs need to

(01:06:17):
heal first, you know, And I remember writing that in
the book I think it's in the last chapter, one
of the last chapters, is that underneath it all, what
I really saw was pain. I call this the pain point.
The reason why people, a lot of women specifically, are
attract the two New Thought is because of their pain,
and they have a very difficult time getting through that

(01:06:40):
to see what's true. Because of truth is painful, you
know what I mean. It's like there's this level of
a spiritual hamster wheel that you get caught on. And
I think that that is the allure, is that, oh,
look how much God loves me. And I'm like, okay,
well he would still love you if you never had
one supernatural experience, if you never had one healing, no experience,

(01:07:02):
no nothing, would you still love him? Would you still
follow him? And I think that that is that is
the uh, that's the that's the laser pointer that they're
trying to catch, you know what I mean. It's like
that's the carrot on the stick.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
So one of the things I thought was really cool
about your book is you feature these conversations that you
have with people that are wrapped up in New Thought. Right,
if you could talk about, first of all, just what
those experiences were like yeah. And then secondly, how did
you approach them or how did you get these people
to engage in conversations. The reason I'm asking that part
of the question is because I could easily see somebody

(01:07:37):
who is like, man, I think I might know somebody
or my pastor might be wrapped up in some of
this or something. But how do I talk to them
about it? So maybe if they hear how you kind
of approach these people, that would give them some ideas
of how to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:50):
Yeah, sure, yeah, this is actually my favorite part was
the research process. I did not particularly enjoy writing because
I'm like, man, I got to leave so much out.
It's very difficult to write. But I really enjoyed researching,
and this is simply what I do. I love to
go boots on the ground and see things for myself,
ask questions. I am a very annoyingly curious person, and

(01:08:12):
I think that that's just the way that I do things.
I enjoy it, and so when I'm doing the research
for this, I'm like, Okay, this was my background. I
understand the books. I can see them and I can
read them, but I want to go talk to the
people that are in these spaces and I talk to
a lot. In fact, there's a it's inside my house. Actually,
there's this little booklet journal that I had. I would

(01:08:35):
be writing as they were talking, and I had to
be very careful in the book to be careful of
their privacy. You know, that's also very very important to me.
But I mean, let's sake, I went into a Unity Center,
which is a New Thought church, if you will, and
I went and I attended the services. At every place
that I went, I sat in the back and at

(01:08:57):
Unity services in particulars, it's very very interesting, almost a
little uncomfortable at the end because they sing this song
where you all hold hands and you sing and it's
like a love right You're just you're you're sharing the
love together, okay. And I did not participate. There was
times that every time I went to one, they would

(01:09:17):
try to grab my hand and I'm like, no thanks,
And I'm that re desivating in this this I'm good.
This is where I draw the line, you know. And
so I mean, you go into these spaces, there are boundaries, okay.
So that I will say, and then afterwards, what I
would do is I would simply ask someone. I would go,
I'm like, hey, is there somebody that, like, I don't know,
I could talk to you that knows a lot about
new thought. You know, I'm writing a book. I would

(01:09:39):
like to, you know, speak to somebody about it. And
here's the thing. I and I also made phone calls, right,
so I would call if they were out of town,
I would call over the phone, like, yeah, you have questions,
I would like to get your take on this or
that or whatever. Everybody was one hundred percent kind, happy,
more than happy to talk to me, like they were
hungry to talk to me. Yeah. They were very nice,

(01:10:01):
very willing. I was never a burden. I you know,
there were times that you know, I wanted to say longer.
But no matter who I talked to. I went to
progressive churches as well. I would talk to the reverends,
the pastors who well, I mean the reverends ministers. I
wouldn't really call them pastors. But same thing. There was
one guy in particular, I put him in the book,

(01:10:23):
and the conversation, at least part of the conversation in
the book, the happiest guy in the world to talk
to me. He's like, yeah, I love this stuff. I
love talking about this, you know, And oh, and this
is the other thing. They were very very very honest,
very honest. They were very very black and white with
their views on how they saw Christians, though not one

(01:10:44):
of them saw us in a very good light, not
one of them under in one of them. I think
I put it in my progressive chapter where the pastor
I was talking to the reverend was like, yeah, I
don't think they'd even come to listen to my servant sermon.
And I'm like, oh, this is so ironic, because like,
I'm here in front of you talking to you. I
think they just all assumed that I was just one
of them, like a curious person asking questions, and they

(01:11:07):
not never, not one person asked me, except for one
that comes to my mind right now, why I was there,
why I was asking the questions. Only one person is like,
what are you doing. I'm like, oh, I'm writing a book,
you know. And if they didn't ask that, I gave it.
I'm like, I'm writing I'd like to interview you and
see what you know you have to say, and yeah,
And so the thing is, though, is that I and
here's the other thing. My if people are wanting to

(01:11:29):
know how to talk to others, The biggest growth that
I had in ministry was talking to Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons.
If you really want to learn people's skills, talk to
people that are hard to talk to, because you will
learn a lot about yourself and what triggers you and
where your blind spots are and how you can handle

(01:11:51):
yourself in a conversation. Because we are part of the problem.
If we go into a conversation with gun swinging and
our pitchfork's going because we feel like, oh they're wrong
and we need to go correct it. I think that's
the wrong, bad attitude. I think that sometimes maybe we should.
I think that we need to be discerning. But if
you're going into arms swinging conversations like that all the time,

(01:12:11):
you are part of the problem. I went in with
like a tactical approach. I guess, like a like a
Greg kochole, where it's like, tell me more, what do
you mean by that? Okay, what about this? And you
guys read the book.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
You know that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
Just doing that was like all I had. I remember
there was this one conversation, my favorite conversation I interview,
I have to say, and it's favorite because I couldn't
believe it. In the beginning of the conversation, I'm asking, Okay,
it's my truth that tobacco's a vegetable, and.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
I, oh, yes, this one, uh huh.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
And I by the end of the conversation. At first
he was like, no, that's stupid. I'm I'm like, I agree,
that's dumb. However, like, okay, let's go, and then through
a series of questions, by the end of that conversation
he's like, yeah, tobacco can be a vegetable. And what
the point is is that I'm trying to show the
reader like this is the this is the line they draw.

(01:13:05):
There's no line when it comes to truth. And so
what do you do? How do you handle somebody like that?
You have to first understand who you're even talking to,
what are you dealing with, what's their story? What are they?
And this is the problem with New Thought. I began
the whole chapter three with amen, Christ, Christ is king, yay.
But to somebody in New Thought, like you have to

(01:13:26):
dig a little bit. What does Christ mean? What do
they believe? You have to understand them first and then
be understood. And that's kind of just the course correction
I take when I talk to people, and so hopefully
that helps that I answer all your questions.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
Uh, yeah, definitely. I just wanted to say one of
the ones that stuck out to me that I just
remember reading it and feeling kind of sad for the
lady is the last time. Yeah, the last one. Yeah.
She seemed just heavy. Yeah, it's sad and she and
I got the sense from reading your account that she

(01:14:02):
kind of knew there was something to what you were saying,
but she wasn't out of place where she was ready
to even consider it, And that left me kind of heavy,
feeling like, oh gosh, I hope she Yeah, the Holy
Spirit used what Melissa said to open her eyes. Yeah,

(01:14:22):
because it just she's, like you said, she just seemed
tired and weary, and yes, I know what that feels like.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
Yeah, so yeah, yeah, you know. And one of the
things my best friend actually pointed this out to me.
She said that it was in my one of my interviews.
He was listening to it, and that one of the
guys I was talking to said I asked him, I
was like, all right, well, basically, if Christianity we were true,
would you become a Christian? Is basically it? You know,
and he's like, never, because I don't want to be
seen as a bad guy. And I'm like, okay, in

(01:14:48):
my head, I'm thinking, if you take that over to
my conversation with her, she doesn't want to be seen
as a bad guy, but Jesus was seen as a
bad guy. He's like on the cross, seen as a criminal.
You ready to be seen that way?

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
For true?

Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
Like, are you ready? She's she's not. She didn't. She's
counting the cost. That's not something that she wanted to
be a part of. And I think I gave the
example of the pilgrim's progress, I think was pliable and obstinate,
you know. And here's Christian trying to tell him like, look,
look see, it's right here, right in front of you,
here's the truth, and don't you see. And he's like, no,

(01:15:25):
I don't see, and quite frankly, I don't want to.
And that's the attitude a lot of them out. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Well, and I just want to say to listeners before
we you know, kind of land the plane here, that
one of the things, as we've talked about these different topics,
and maybe you're somebody who doesn't always read apologetics books
or theology books, one of the strengths of Melissa's book
that I think stands out and you know among these

(01:15:51):
types of books, is it's very conversational and it's funny.
A lot of times when you're reading it, you feel
like you're sitting down having coffee, like talking with her
and so. Yeah, so it's a very inviting kind of
engaging read. So I don't want anybody to walk away
with the impression that, oh, this is going to be
too technical for me. I think you're going to find

(01:16:13):
that it's very accessible, very enjoyable, and engaging.

Speaker 3 (01:16:17):
I'll take that as a compliment that you that that
it might seem like it might be technical.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
Yeah, because because of all that, as we're talking, this
conversation has covered a lot of nuances, right, And even
I'm sitting here, who's somebody who's I've been into apologetics
since I was twenty five. I'm forty eight now, and
I'm in it. Even I'm sitting here kind of mind
boggled by some of the stuff I'm hearing. So I
don't want people to think, oh, you know, that's too
much for me or something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
Yeah, great, great read. My impression was like, Wow, she
did a good job taking such a confusing bunch of
stuff and categorizing it. And you know, you mentioned how
it's it's hard to parse out because who's there's a
one spokesperson of here's what new Thought believes. It's like
the New Age. This is a general sort of broad

(01:17:03):
category of types of beliefs in a certain area, you know,
characterize very certain things. And then New thoughts sort sort
of the same boat. And so how do you how
do you like lay that out? Well, it was done
in a really good way, real readable way, and you've
organized a lot of topics that are super relevant history,

(01:17:26):
how how it's affected the church, how it's affected the world.
You know, how we can sort of and one thing
I think was really helpful, which kind of answers a
question like what what does someone do if they're affected
by this? Well, every chapter has like, okay, how do
we get the crowd out of our out of here
that we've built up? You know, we've we've accumulated some

(01:17:49):
of this stuff that are New Thought beliefs. Maybe we
didn't realize it now we can see it very clearly. Now,
how do we correct that? And there's scriptures you say
here read these in contacts. Here's some prayers you can
pray to sort of like work through and sort of
like scrape off the gunk that you've accumulated from, you know,
just watching Oprah too many times or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:18:12):
We are so selling your book right.

Speaker 3 (01:18:15):
Now, we're us go thanks man.

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):
That being said, the book is called Happy Lies How
a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self
obsessed world. Unlessa would just tell us about your YouTube
channel and all those things and where people can find you.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
Sure, yeah, basically all major platforms social media platforms, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, Twix.
And then I have a website by my own name. Yeah,
so you pretty much google me. You'll find me somewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:18:43):
Well, thank you very much. It's been a privilege to
have a look in this into this book and to
have a conversation about it. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:18:50):
Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's been really fun.

Speaker 1 (01:18:53):
Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you have a
question you'd like us to address, or just a message
for us feedback, good bat. You can either email us
at podcast at apologetics three fifteen dot com, or leave
a voice message for us using speakpipe. Just go to
speakpipe dot com slash apologetics three fifteen to leave us
a message, and remember, if you include a ghostbuster's quote

(01:19:16):
in your question, we guarantee that we'll read it on
the podcast. We also ensure up to fifty percent better
quality answers. Also, if you've enjoyed today's podcast, please leave
a review in iTunes or the podcast platform me your choice,
and please share this episode with a friend if you've
found it useful. Remember you can find lots of Apologetics
resources at apologetics three fifteen dot com, along with show

(01:19:38):
notes for today's episode. Find Chad's apologetic stuff over at
truthbomb apologetics. That's truthbomb dot blogspot dot com. This has
been Brian Auten and Chad Gross for the Apologetics three
fifteen podcast, and thanks for listening.

All Episodes

150 - Happy Lies & New Thought with Melissa Dougherty

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

Crime Junkie

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}150 - Happy Lies & New Thought with Melissa Dougherty