151 - Clear Thinking with Ken Samples

Episode Summary:

In this episode of the Apologetics 315 podcast, hosts Brian Auten and Chad Gross welcome Professor Ken Samples to discuss his new book, 'Clear Thinking in a Messy World.' The conversation explores the intersection of logic, critical thinking, and the Christian worldview, emphasizing the importance of discernment and understanding cognitive biases. 

The hosts and Ken delve into the significance of Jesus as a logician and thinker, the role of science and philosophy in achieving objectivity, and the necessity of careful thinking in today's information-saturated environment. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the significance of logic and critical thinking, emphasizing their role as tools for clearer thinking and better work across various fields. 

They discuss the importance of understanding logical fallacies while maintaining a charitable approach in discussions. The conversation also highlights the necessity of character development in education, the value of revisiting great books, and the idea of the church functioning as a school for intellectual growth. Practical steps for fostering a more intellectually engaging church environment are shared, along with insights on mastering topics through worldview thinking and utilizing resources effectively for learning.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
03:30 The Significance of Logic in Christianity
09:55 Jesus as a Logician and Thinker
16:08 The Importance of Discernment in a Messy World
21:58 Understanding Cognitive Biases
29:56 The Role of Science and Philosophy in Objectivity
37:33 The Power of Logic and Critical Thinking
40:08 Understanding Logical Fallacies
48:37 The Importance of Character in Education
49:05 Books That Shape the Mind
56:14 The Church as a School
01:02:58 Mastering a Topic Through Worldview Thinking
01:09:11 Utilizing the Book for Learning
================================
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to the Apologetics three fifteen podcast with
your hosts Brian Auten and Chad Gross. Join us for
conversations and interviews on the topics of apologetics, evangelism, and
the Christian worldview. You've give you sent a word? I
don't think I miss? What do you think of miss?

(00:24):
Hello and welcome to the podcast. This is Brian Auten
and I'm Chad Gross.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
And we've got a special guest for you today, someone
who's been on the podcast a number of times because
he's our fave.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
That is Professor Ken Samples. And today we're talking.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
About a book that we've been waiting for for a
long time, the one book that is amazing. Now listen,
I would tell you the title of this book, but
we're just gonna wait until the interview because right now
we're actually re recording our intro from like a week
and a half ago. Chad Man, there's something going We

(01:01):
use Riverside to record our podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
And they have changed something.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
We're trying to get to the bottom of what's going on,
but the audio just was crunching away, So I'm going
to leave in Chad's We're ditching our previous intro recorded
because it was so bad recording.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
It was so bad.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
But yeah, some of Chad's questions when he asks them, listener,
just bear with it. It gets better later. But it's
it's super crunch. It's like distorted and weird. So that's
totally we knew about that. We left it in because
we're authentic.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Right and and just for my part, we have since
taken steps to improve said audios, so that should not
be a problem moving forward. And I think it was
because I went into my whole Cogan impression and it
just shook the very core of the audio. That's what
it was, was.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
What we were what I was saying.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
I was telling Chad that, you know, this book is
this is a book on logic and critical thinking. And
I said, this is the book I've been waiting for.
And I said, you know, previously Travis Dickinson had this
for his logic book, and now it's like there was
this WWE wrestling belt that has been passed on to
Ken Samples and now he's the world record holder. And

(02:21):
then Chad went into this like hulk Mania voice and
it was insane, and boy, I wanted to leave that
in there, but I was afraid we would lose listeners
because they would instantly hear this big crack crackling audio
like ah, So you know, if you pay our six
hundred pounds a month Patreon fee, that's available. That's available

(02:42):
for you to download. And there's also signed poster of
Chad with the belt.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
So right anyway, and check our check our store to
see the Chad Served Disaster t shirt.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
So yes, now, we really love this interview. We really
love Ken Samples. We're really appreciative that he was on
the podcast again, and we do really encourage you to
if you're looking at looking for a good, really all
round great book. And you know, I was really singing
the praises of this book throughout the interview, so get

(03:13):
ready for that if I don't edit it all out
because I'm so embarrassed how like fanboying I was for
this book.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
I really enjoyed it. So enjoyed this interview, and thanks
for listening. Here we go, let's get ready switch me on.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
All right, Well, Ken Samples, welcome back to the podcast
yet again.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
Well, it's a pleasure to be with you guys. I
follow you your ministry, admire it, and I appreciate so
much you having me on once more one more time.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, I was telling Chad that you've stolen the WWE
belt for the best logic book. You know, wait, before
we thought it was you know, Travis Dickinson.

Speaker 4 (03:54):
And that's a good one, by the way.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah it was good.

Speaker 4 (03:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, It's like a fine dish that has all the
flavors just balanced.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
His was delicious, but yours was a complete meal, five
course perfect, you know.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, you cracked the code.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Thank you for letting us, you know, read this book
and have a conversation surrounding the themes in it. So
and for the listener, it's called clear Thinking in a
Messy World, a Christian guide to logic, reason and cognitive bias.
And we also have to thank Mark Perez, your co author.
Certainly you're both bringing out the best of one another.
And yeah, we were just singing as praises. It was

(04:34):
something that shifted my thinking in some things, you know.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
So I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
Well, we really appreciated your gracious endorsement. And I'm so
happy that it is out. I've been thinking about this
book for forty years, so thank you for those kind words.
And I'm it's such a pleasure when I know that
it's helping people. That's the big thing.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, Ever since I've known Brian, he's been looking for
the perfect book.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
And are not even exaggerating.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
We were talking before you came on, and he's estimating
about fifteen years. But he's been looking for the perfect
blend of like logic and.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Christianity, you know.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
And he said in the introduction that this is this
is the one, like this is finally the end of
his quest.

Speaker 4 (05:22):
So kind words. I appreciate much.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
But here's the reason, and we'll talk about what you think. Yeah,
I mean it would.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
Be nice to hear with ken things.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
I mean yeah, but here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
You've got sort of a case for the Christian mind,
and Lay is a perfect foundation for that. And then
it's like, Okay, we could go really deep on logic,
we could go really deep on critical thinking, we could
really go really deep on cognitive biases, but the reader's
going to get way bogged down, and what they really

(05:54):
need is to be inspired to take this torchu and run.
And you've done that in all these three categories, because
each one gives you enough introduction if you're a learner,
like a novice to be like, oh, yeah, I see
where this path can lead me, and you've even given
me some tools to go down that path. And all

(06:15):
of these areas if you only have the logic but
you don't have the understanding of the cognitive biases and
where you're thinking can go wrong, or you don't understand
critical thinking and how to be maybe charitable and think
about how to interact with ideas, you're going to make mistakes.
With all these tools, you need to know how they
work together and how to balance them. And it's like, wow,

(06:37):
you really, you guys struck a great balance of that.
And like one of the things that inspired me was
like you've got something in there about learning and developing
your mind, and it was like you were saying, you know,
just go. You can learn a language, you can read
the great books and things. And you know what I

(06:58):
felt for so long, I can't do so I can't
read that.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
That's that's not.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
That's not productive to read that, it's not you. I've
had a really very utilitarian idea of what I'm reading,
and I thought, you know what, it released me to
read for enjoyment, for read for its intrinsic good. So
it's been amazing to find the book and I really
appreciate it, but please tell me what is inspired you

(07:28):
guys in how you put it together?

Speaker 4 (07:30):
Well, thank you for all of that. I I wanted
the book to express our sense of the life of
the mind to the glory of God. And you know
there there are lots of people who they love the
Lord in many ways, but they need a little bit
of encouragement and coaching on how to love God with

(07:52):
their mind. I also wanted it to be more than
just a logic text or a critical thinking tech I
did want to inspire people, and I tried to use
as well as Mark. We both tried to use apologetic example,
so you get a little bit of invitation to Christian

(08:13):
apologetics and Christian theology. So I definitely wanted to be
a book that could be used in logic or critical
thinking courses. But I wanted it to be more than that.
I wanted it to be a book that you could
go back to, that you could continue to kind of
grow through. And I have to admit, I don't think

(08:36):
that there's another logic text out there that has that
addresses cognitive bias. So Mark Perez's part is a very
important part that that's still a field that people are
working through and developing. So you know, this was written
for Christians and I Brian I. I think the first

(09:00):
time I taught logic was nineteen ninety so it's thirty
five years in the working and this book is in
many ways kind of the book I wanted to have
for my students through those years. And I've used a
number of books and there are some there are some
solid books out there. You mentioned Dickinson's book. I like

(09:22):
that very much. I know him and he is a
gracious and thoughtful person. So this was kind of a
book I was thinking all along about and writing isn't
an easy process, but love. I think what I really
love about writing is afterwards talking about ideas with people

(09:44):
who are interested. So your interview today is something that
really makes it enjoyable to be an author.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah. Well, one of the.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Things that I think is important kind of to start
out with because it's such I feel like it's overlooked.
Is any book that I read that highlights the idea
that Jesus was a logician and how intelligent Jesus was
is something that I think is incredibly valuable because oddly
at least in my experience, it's rarely talked about in
the church, And so can you talk a little bit

(10:17):
about Jesus as a thinker, as a logician so that
listeners can kind of who haven't thought about that maybe
or been introduced to that idea, can begin to process it.

Speaker 4 (10:27):
Yes, you know, I've recently been reading again through the Gospels,
and there are many things that oppressed me about Jesus. Obviously,
the healing ministry is just something that just draws me in.
And of course I love the I love all of

(10:47):
the titles that he uses about himself. But I was
very much struck by the fact that Jesus is not
only a great storyteller, but he is a very fine
teacher on the level I think with Socrates and Sidhartha,
Gautama and Confucius. He is a world class storyteller. But

(11:11):
then there is that the sage logician where Jesus, I mean,
he's twelve years old. He's a carpenter, so he probably
doesn't have the formal training that rabbis would receive. I
have read at the time of Christ it was largely
expected that a rabbi would pretty much have the Old
Testament content down cold, and it was a oral tradition.

(11:37):
So you know, you've got a lot going on with
terms of memory and things of that nature. But here's Jesus,
He's twelve years old. He is talking with the elite
religious leaders of Second Temple Judaism and they're amazed by him.

(11:57):
And it just truck me one day when I was
reading Jesus's interaction with the with the Sadducees and the
Pharisees and the scribes, Jesus never draws an invalid inference.
And I mean that, just that just pit me really hard,
because I make mistakes in reasoning all the time. I

(12:20):
have to go back and say, now did I I'm not.
I don't think I got that right. Let me, let
me rework it. I mean, here Jesus has people coming
to him and their their intention is to get him
into serious trouble. They want to catch him on something,
you know, and and uh, should we pay taxes to Caesar?

(12:41):
And he looks at them and says, well, give me
one of those dinarre whose image is on this, and
they respond he says, well, give to Caesar the things
that are Caesar, and God the things that are God.
And you can almost hear the silence. I think that
that is an credible thing. Again, I've read a lot

(13:02):
of the Socratic dialogues. I've read a good bit about
Sidhartha Gautama, the Buddha, who was a fine teacher. I
also admire Confucius as a teacher. And of course Plato
and Aristotle are two people that I think are some
of the brightest in the history of Western civilization. I
don't think any of them have any thing on Jesus

(13:27):
as a person who's capable of articulating ideas. So now
you put that with the healings, you put that with
the fulfillment of prophecy, you put that with Jesus's life, death,
and resurrection, and I think that's one more powerful argument

(13:48):
that he really was the son of God. And you know,
so when Jesus has loved God with your mind, that
takes on a new element. Hey, here is a first
rate Christian thinker, a first rate Messiah thinker. And I
wanted people to to get a touch of that that.

(14:11):
You know, Okay, maybe none of us are going to
aspire to be an Aristotle or a Plato, or or
a William Lane Craig or whomever it may be. But
God has given us a gift of our mind, and
we want to be able to use it, and we
want we want that to express our love for the Lord.

(14:31):
So I appreciate you bringing that up, Chad, because I
think that's something a lot of Christians have not given
some thought. And Uh, I owe that to a few
different people. Uh. Certain certainly Dickinson brings that out, and
I thought it was very very helpful. Colleague of mine

(14:52):
at Reasons to Believe, George Harrakson, who is a philosopher,
he emphasized that, and Dallas Willard is an other that
emphasized that, And I thought, wow, I want to I
really want something like that in the book.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yeah, you mentioned Willard. I was thinking while you were talking, Drew,
it brought to mind something I remembered him saying in
a lecture. He said something to the effect I'm paraphrasing.
He said, if you don't believe Jesus is smart, then
you're not going to go to him to learn how
to live. And if you're not going to him to
learn how to live, then how can you be a disciple?

(15:28):
And that just hit me like a ton of bricks,
Like how important it is to not only see Jesus
as holy, as healers, as all those things you talked about,
but also you should see him as somebody who is intelligent.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
That's exactly right. And it again, it just kind of
brings the Gospels on fire. You see, you see all
of these capacities, and it made me look again even
at the parables. Wow, what stories these are. And immediately
I thought, well, this is the reason I love Tolkien

(16:02):
and lewis this ability to tell a story and draw
people in. That part of that persuasion is there are
no doubt logoss is very popular and very important, but
you also have ethos and pathoss that are involved in
what Aristotle called that triangle of persuasion.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, so he was a master logician but also a
master rhetorician.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
One thing comes to my mind and thinking about the book.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Is you've created a set of tools and a sort
of a path to continue growing in the use of
those tools of clear thinking, of helping us be discerning
as Christians and as thinkers and to love God with
all our minds.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
So sometimes I get discouraged.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Sometimes I'm excited when it comes to things like AI and.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
There are resources and information we've got.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
So when I think think about, oh, anything I need
to know, I can just google it, or I can
generate content or like brainstorm with you know, chat, GPT
or something like that. And at the same time, I'm like, oh,
this is making me lazy, you know, it making the
world lazy, certainly because now who's who's gonna.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
Like be the gatekeeper?

Speaker 2 (17:25):
Like, hey, why should I trust this, you know, because
it came from AI thought that somebody could change that. Like,
so when I'm thinking about the value, one of the
values of the book is like it right now, you
don't have to memorize facts anymore. It's it's almost can
be a waste of time. You need to thorn how
to think and discern and to filter and to know
where the information is going wrong. Because there's so much information,

(17:48):
it's easy to get the info.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Now you have to be like.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
You have to figure out what you can trust, what
is something that is having this So I think you
could talk a little bit about what it means to
have discernment and how that can be developed.

Speaker 4 (18:06):
Yeah, I think it's you know, when I give talks
at churches about the life of the mind, about thinking
carefully and critically. I try to take them from the
word logic to that very word discernment. And so you know,
John says, in the beginning was the word, and behind

(18:27):
that is logoths and that is an incredible statement about
Jesus being the life of God, the mind of God,
the thoughts of God. And you know, in the New
Testament we're reminded how important it is to be discerning.
John says, don't don't believe things too quickly. Many false
prophets have gone out into the world. Paul says things like,

(18:50):
you know, put things to the test, hold on to
the good. When I was growing up, I had a
bug to learn it. It never really kind of developed
till a bit later. But I remember when I was
in elementary and junior high school, and even in high school,
if I wanted a lot of information had to go

(19:12):
to the library, and I remember paying fines because I
turned books in late because I wanted to read them.
If I could compare that with my son Michael, who
is twenty seven years old. Michael was born right at
the time in which the Internet came into being. He

(19:32):
has had access to information right at his fingertips. He
can go all over the world. But the challenge that
I had was getting access. I think the challenge that
our children have is testing reliability. Is this good content?
And I think a lot more discernment is needed now.

(19:55):
It is easy to be influenced by indoctrination, propaganda. It's
very easy for people to engage in deception. I mean
you have to at times now even wonder, well is
that really a photograph? Or is that AI? You know,
how do I know what it is? So I think

(20:18):
we're at a stage where we do really have to
fall back on ways of thinking carefully and discerning. And
you know, one thing we make in the point, and
both Mark and I bring this out, and that is
that you know, logic doesn't teach you to think. The
Good Lord has given you a good mind and a

(20:41):
good brain. And I know both of you you're both
very careful thinkers. What logic can do is to help
you be careful because it's so easy to be lazy,
it is so easy to be sloppy. And that's what
I love about Aristotle's definition. He says logic is ordered fought,

(21:02):
and that's what I need. I need my thinking to
be ordered. I can't just take a vacation anytime I want.
I need to be challenged. And Brian, I think you're
right on the money with AI and with all of
the technology that we now have, and take it all
for granted, we have to be able to have that

(21:25):
mind that can really go through the material and weigh
it and make a judgment.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
So Ken, you're saying that Mark Brez was doing more
of the stuff in the area of the cognitive biases,
and maybe he was a higher contributor to that. But
talk a little bit about this, because I've benefited a
lot in the past from critical thinking books and more

(21:51):
like logic books informal logic books and books about fallacies,
and those are all really helpful in their own way,
But I haven't read as much, although I've heard like
podcasts on cognitive biases, and I think these are just
it's like right up there with knowing all the logical fallacies,
all the ways you could go wrong in their way
you structure an argument. You can also don't realize you've

(22:14):
got your own emotions, your own inclinations tricking you into
like wanting something to be true, or wanting a certain conclusion,
or just having wrong slant to your own inclination to
accept one argument over another or one conclusion over another.
Talk a little bit about what these are and maybe

(22:35):
a few examples that are ones that people might see
commonly but maybe not recognize.

Speaker 4 (22:41):
Yes, I completely agree. I think this is a kind
of a new frontier. And again I considered Mark's contribution
to be so important to the book. Let's talk a
little bit about this. You know, a cognitive bias is
that we we have kind of at times an instinct

(23:03):
or we have a predisposition towards something. So sometimes our
instincts are correct, sometimes our intuition is correct, but there
are many times it's not. And I've noticed for a
long time that my students, when I would give them
an assignment in ethics or in philosophy, world religions, or

(23:24):
just in a critical thinking class, they would take a
topic and I'd say, okay, make your case, but at
the end of your paper, I want you to tell
me what the best argument is on the other side
and how you would respond to it. Well, we have
what we call the confirmation bias. It is very very

(23:46):
easy to start thinking where you're looking at evidence, you're
looking at data, you're evaluating information, and there is this
tendency the short cut, to take the shortcut and only
look for evidence that supports your position, and that can

(24:07):
get us into real, real trouble. Your argument is only
as good as the evidence that supports it, and if
you haven't looked at the evidence against your argument, you
haven't looked at all the available data. So it's often
the case, or I should say it's seldom the case
that an argument is just going to win the day

(24:29):
and there isn't going to be any objection to it,
there's not going to be any attempt to refute it.
I think, you know, having worked with many scientists over
a period, you can almost find, no matter what topic
it is in science, a scientist who's going to dispute it,
and philosophy, it may even be more true where somebody

(24:50):
will stand up and say, no, I disagree with that.
So confirmation bias. I mean, God has given us a
gift to be able to detect information, to kind of
abductively evaluate it and see how it works together. But
we have to be very careful that we don't have
kind of a privileged perspective where we think, I'm only

(25:14):
you look at the data that supports my theistic worldview.
I'm only going to look at the data that supports
my view on abortion, and so confirmation bias lurks there. Now,
if you add into that that we are fallen people,
we are both fallen people, and we're finite people. Being finite,

(25:35):
we have limitations and boundaries. Being fallen, we have certain
prejudices and biases, and it is very easy to kind
of fall into a trap. I think Paul quite clearly
in Romans One says that one of the things that
makes sin diabolical is it can blind you. And I

(25:58):
know all of us have had situation with our wives
where they see our problem and we can't see it
at all. And that happens all the time, where there's
this blind spot where we can't make our way through.
So confirmation bias is one of that gets talked about
a lot, it is very important. Another one is group think.

(26:23):
It is very easy, particularly on social media, where you
go online and there's a group of people, and I
have found that it's it's kind of easy to be
sucked into that where you're no longer thinking as an individual.
You kind of fall into the group think. And again

(26:44):
you have to be very careful because even critical thinking scientists,
critical thinking philosophers, historians, it's easy to fall into a
group think and not kind of challenge fundamental ideas. So
you know, if you give, if you give consideration that
we are falling. Christian thinkers for centuries have talked about

(27:08):
the noetic effects of the fall. I think sometimes people
exaggerate the negatives of that. I think there are other
times maybe there's there isn't an appropriate appreciation of that.
But you also give consideration that we don't remember things
all the time. Your mind is is a it's a

(27:29):
powerful and amazing, but it can be tricky where you're
certain that I saw these things. I was on the
freeway a couple of years ago and a truck hit
a car, and then the car hit me, And right
afterwards we all pulled over and got our phones out

(27:50):
and exchanged information. Then the highway patrolman came on and
he said, well, were you rolling when you were hit?
Or had you come to a stop? And I was sure, no,
I'm I'm sure I was rolling. But then later I
realized I wasn't rolling. I know I had stopped, and
I looked in the rear view mirror, hoping she wouldn't
hit me your mind. I had a lot going on

(28:13):
at that time. It was a tricky circumstance. So that
amazing memory that God gives us, it can play tricks
with us. And I think being aware of these basic
cognitive biases is very, very helpful and meaningful, so that

(28:33):
if you look at the messy world we've talked about,
you've got informal fallacies, you've got indoctrination, you've got propaganda,
you've got conspiracy theories, and now you've got cognitive biases
within yourself that you have to work through. So I
think what's very helpful, and it's something I've believed in

(28:54):
for a very long time, and that is that you
need to constantly go back to these things, need to
be reviewing these kinds of things. And the dangers that
we make is you know what, I'm tired. I want
to take a weekend off. Our mind is always wanting
to take a weekend off, and we have to drive

(29:14):
it back there and say, nope, you need to work
a little harder. Here.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
You say a couple of times in the book makes
me chuckle, where you're like, yeah, your mind always wants
to have a weekend and it only does the minimum
amount of work. You know, you know, we're not just
lazy and want to sit on the couch, but our
brains want to just chill out and not do the
hard thinking. But you have to realize you could go

(29:41):
off the rails so easily. So that was one mental
Now I was like, and the note I took in
my mind was be careful, be careful, be careful.

Speaker 4 (29:49):
That was the no.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Is like, you have to be a careful thinker, because
just like a minefield you're describing, you know.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah, so Kain, my mind's kind of reeling here in it,
like two or three directions I want to go of
notes I took while I was reading. So I'm just
gonna ask in this kind of piggybacks on what you
were saying. There's kind of this prevailing idea, particularly I
see it on social media that somehow, you know, science

(30:17):
gives us objectivity. It's implied that science is almost this cold,
almost gives us almost cold mathematical certainty. Now, of course,
like scientists would deny that, but in practice they sometimes
act like that, particularly skeptics, Whereas like philosophy, religion, those
things are kind of shunned or people kind of look

(30:37):
down their nose and it's almost like.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
Well, that's that's subjectivity.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Or you know, philosophers they just sit around and talk
about things and never accomplish anything, you know, kind of
paraphrasing Lawrence Krauss. So you know, I guess what I'm
asking is is, how would you respond to that idea
that somehow science is the beacon of objectivity and all
other disciplines must kind of the need to that.

Speaker 4 (31:01):
I've heard that a great deal. What I find very
interesting is that there are many scientists. Some of them
are really fine scientists, outstanding in their field. They're outspoken,
and a lot of times they're reflecting a secular worldview,

(31:22):
and Chad, they don't know how science works. They say
things Lawrence Krause says, the arbiter of all truth is experiment,
and I'm like, well, where did that? Did that come
out of an experiment? I have scientists all the time say,
you know, philosophy, history, religion, Yeah, you guys, you know,

(31:45):
that's all kind of it involves a certain amount of
wishful thinking, and they don't realize that science depends upon
assumptions that undergirding science is a cluster of unscientific beliefs,
like there's a real world out there. You can trust
your cognitive faculties and sensory organs, logic and math work.

(32:11):
All of these kind of things are underneath it. Martiner
Adler one of the great educators in twenty Philosophers of
the twentieth century, he made the comment in his book
How to Read a Book. He said, scientists are highly specialized,
but not necessarily well educated. And I don't think he

(32:32):
was poking fun or attacking, because that has been my
experience when I talk to my colleagues at Reasons to Believe,
their education is so chocked full of science and data
that there is very little information given about the philosophy

(32:52):
of science, the history of science. Many scientists are surprised
when they hear that the played a very significant role
Christianity in particular with the birth of science. And again,
these assumptions they I've had them. I've had people say
to me, well, science just works, and I say, how

(33:15):
does it work? I debated a scientist it was up
in Fresno, and the scientists said, as a scientist, I
have no beliefs. So I waited till my turn and
I just chalked off all of the beliefs that he
had as a scientist. So science is a remarkable way
of knowing, but it's very limited, and it needs to

(33:40):
be co joined with philosophy, with theology in various fields.
And it's interesting to me that people who gravitate toward
science and away from theism, they kind of want to
pit science against Christianity. And I say that's a strange
thing because historically Christianity birth science and the intellectual assumptions

(34:07):
that go with science are deeply compatible with theism. So
it's also unfortunate when very good scientists start talking philosophy
and you begin to realize, wow, you don't know what
you're talking about. Yes, so we all have limitations, we

(34:28):
all have boundaries, we all need to be counterchecked. And
I think this kind of popular scientism has been adopted
by people, but we need to challenge it. We need
to show them that, look, you're never going to have
an experiment that's going to tell you that experimentation is
the only way you can know the truth. That's an

(34:51):
assumption according to your worldview.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
You know one of the things too about that is
the idea that and you bring this out in the book,
I think beautifully is the idea that regardless of what
you're doing, whether it's theology, philosophy, science, whatever discipline you're in,
these principles, you know, the formal, the informal logical fallacies,
being aware of your biases and all of those things

(35:17):
are going to help you be more objective, regardless of
what field that you're working in. And so I think
that's a great thing that's brought out in the book subtly.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
Well, you know, I had one scientist say to me,
I don't need to study logic. I studied calculus, and
I said, well, I respect your knowledge of calculus, but
calculus is not the formal study of logic. I said,
Logic is going to present things to you that even
calculus will not. And so we do need that challenge.

(35:49):
And if I could put my if I could reverse
it for a moment. My science colleagues have helped me
a great deal. They've helped me think about things like
quantum mechanics. They've helped me think about things like, you know,
what is a cosmic singularity and what is inflation? And
so I don't ever want to convey the idea that

(36:12):
they're learning just for me. I've learned so many different
things from them, and it's just interesting that science involves
such specialization. I mean, I've been in a room with
six different types of physicists and they're all specialized in
the different field. And I'm thinking, you know, I love specialization,

(36:37):
but we also need a breadth of education where we
draw from that kind of liberal arts, that kind of
classical liberal education, if you will.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Ken just let you know on my kin samples Bingo card,
I just got covered one up when you said Mortimer Adler.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
Wouldn't you put Tolkien and Lewis on that card?

Speaker 2 (37:02):
To no, Well, you know, is like the one you're
always going to mention more Radler and it's I'm and
rightly so it's such great stuff that they've he's Adler
and oh try to read a book and how to speak,
how to listen?

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, right. So Chad's talking about logic being a force
multiplier basically when and that's like, yeah, that's why you know,
the logic and the critical thinking. Just to piggyback, Chad
Bingo character is saying the word piggyback.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
That's true, it's you know why because in elementary school,
it's like teachers they say that all the time. Let
me piggyback on that, let me piggyback on that. So
that's where I picked that up at. Yeah, so I've
been so.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, So that's as you're saying.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
It just seems to me you guys are both describing
this idea of like logic and critical think critical thinking.
It's not like, oh, this is better than other stuff.
This is just something that makes you less likely to
make mistakes in whatever area you're in, and it's going
to help you think clearer and do better work in
whatever area. So it's a force multiplier in that regard.

(38:18):
It doesn't matter what you're doing. You could be an
artist and you know, or writer or whatever, and it's
going to help you. One thing that you seem to be,
to my mind a model of many things. And so
we love you so much for being a guest again
in that regard, in all your contributions. But one of
the things is this idea of a principle of charity

(38:40):
you mentioned just a moment ago where oh, by the way,
you know, they've taught me so much and I'm like,
's see there it is. This is this principle of
charity where you're you're always so gracious and appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (38:51):
It's like an interrupt real quick too, Brian. I mean
I would say that too. I picked that up. When
did you notice when he was talking about when he
was comparing Jesus to other things. You know, sometimes when
you have that comparison, a lot of times you almost
the way that people talk about other ancient thinkers. It
almost degrades them a bit. Whereas whereas Ken went out

(39:13):
of his way to say, this person was very good
at this, I thought this person was very good at this,
and this person was very good at this. It's just
that Jesus is, you know, the superior, you know. So
even there, I picked up on it.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
So the reason I go there is because I wanted
to talk about logical fallacies, something that I think can
be really fun. But also someone who's new to them
can run around and you acknowledge it in the book.
They can run around and.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
Be like, yeah, I'm there's one, there's one, and.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
You become like the Palacy police, and then you know
you probably haven't learned yet. It's just really like, oh uh,
these are everywhere, you know. So talk a little bit
about your approach to logical fallacies and maybe how in
the course of learning about them we need to be

(40:04):
charitable and.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Things like that.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
One of the reasons that I wrote this book was
years ago teaching introduction to Logic to students, and it
was at a community college. So these were not students
who necessarily had all of their ducks in a row.
They were, you know, they were trying to take introductory
courses to maybe transfer to a university or get involved

(40:31):
in some type of employment. And I had a collection
of these students who after the semester, they came to
me and they said, Professor Sample's logic has done something
different from me for me that other classes have not done.
They said, I feel empowered for the first time. I

(40:53):
know what an argument is, and I even know how
arguments often break down into fallies, and I can even
I even know the Latin for this name and that name.
And they thought, and they expressed the idea that, wow,
I never knew that education could do that, and that's

(41:14):
something that really turned me on. I wanted to help
students to develop skills that would help them discern truth,
build confidence. You know, they didn't have to be MIT
students or students going on to elite universities. They could
be everyday persons, and so that was important to me.

(41:39):
Of course, what happens when I start teaching them fallacies
and I would give them a task and they would
have to pick out and of course initially they thought
everything's a fallacy, and I said, no, you need to
pull that back in. Not everything is a fallacy, so
you want to look at it very carefully. And then
they would kind of get to the position where they

(42:01):
would want to poke a person in the eye with
the fallacy, you know. And I told him, look, I
don't go home at night after class and identify my
wife's fallacies. I'm much smarter than that, much more discerning
than that. I'm very careful about what I say to

(42:22):
missus samples.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Did you learn that from a book or from direct experience?

Speaker 4 (42:27):
I follow a little bit of both.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yeah, or you don't.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
You don't reagreg Cochel's tactics and then go home and
colombo your wife.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Right, right, Yeah, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 3 (42:40):
No, I'm sorry, I didn't mean interrupt, but yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
That's exactly right. And I would say, now, look, you know,
we want As a Christian, I love truth and I'm
willing to fight for the truth. I'm willing to stand
up for the truth. But I care a great deal
about unity, and I care about charity. And I remember

(43:05):
reading through First Corinthians thirteen and there were times where
I thought, Wow, can my life be evaluated in terms
of what kind of loving influence has it had? So
I think it's very important to be able to recognize
that these are skills to be learned. There are tools

(43:27):
in your toolbox, but our goal is to persuade people,
and people are persuaded first of all, and I think
Aristotle is right here. He talks about ethos, which is
a character persuasion. He then talks about pathos, where we
get words like empathy and sympathy connecting to the emotion,

(43:51):
and then finally logofs. It's fascinating Aristotle doesn't mention logic
until third So that really struck me that if we
want to be able to persuade people, if we want
to be able to communicate the Christian worldview, and that
is I can vigorously disagree with you and still value

(44:13):
you and still respect you, and we can develop a
friendship even if we, at the end of the day
come away disagreeing with one another. And to me, I
came away from apologetic experiences that were characterized by smack

(44:34):
talk and sarcasm and ridicule. I just did not find
that to be personally fulfilling. And I didn't think other
people did all that well either. And you know, I
was trained by Walter Martin, and boy, Walter Martin was
an amazing apologist. But I had to realize that I'm

(44:59):
not Walter Martin. I don't have the same skill set,
the same personality, and I needed to be ken samples.
And for me, I try when I talk with Christians truth, unity,
and charity. I'm happy to talk with Catholics about the
differences I have or Orthodox but I also want to

(45:19):
talk about unity, and I also want to be able
to communicate that these ideas are not just ideas, their
ideas that shape our lives. And so you know, Paul
talks about a lot about love. And at the end
of the day, I think I would be a failure
even if I mastered logic and critical thinking and history

(45:43):
and philosophy and science. If I were a jerk, if
I were insensitive, intrusive, and majored in sarcasm and ridicule, Brian,
I think a good part of my life have been
a failure. And you know, the reality is we're all

(46:06):
in the biggest room of the world, the room for improvement,
and I try to see myself as part of that.
And I'm sure there are people who think at times
I wish ken we're a little more challenging or a
little more confrontive about issues. And there may have been
times maybe I should have been, but I don't think

(46:27):
sarcasm and ridicule necessarily get you very far in the conversation.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
Yeah, and that's so important because I'm thinking right now
in our current culture, I think more than ever, with
the onset of social media, it's so tempting to, you know,
throw out one hundred and forty characters of a quippie
comeback or and it's also easier to do it when
you're hiding behind a keyboard versus you know, face to face.

(46:55):
And so I think what you're saying is super important.
I love what you said about when you learn logical fallacies.
For some reason, what came to mind was in the
first Karate Kid film, Johnny Lawrence, right, he's trained by
the very aggressive, obnoxious son say, and he's not taught
any kind of restraint, so he just goes out and

(47:15):
beats people up. Whereas Daniel, you know, trained by mister Miaugi,
understands the power of what he's being taught and the
proper use of it. And so I think unfortunately sometimes
people do kind of go Johnny Lawrence with the logical fallacies, right,
They kind of come out and you know, they're calling
them out on their friends and their wives and their

(47:36):
family members and social media, and it gets to the
point where it's like, oh, man, take a break, you know.
So so yeah, I think that's a great point of
using restraint.

Speaker 4 (47:46):
As I have studied some of the great educators, what
I have been aware of is that a very central
part of education is not just knowing, It is developing character,
developing kind of person that you are. And I think
that that's just very very important. And you know, I

(48:11):
love your your your illusion there, because that's exactly right.
I wanted students to be able to feel like I
can go to Professor Samples. He will help me, he
will correct me, but he'll never embarrass me. He will
want me to continue to grow.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
And so.

Speaker 4 (48:31):
Yeah, I think I think that moral character is an
important element. Hm.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Well, let me shift gears slightly, and I'm going to
go off script from the book specifically, although I'll use
the diving board of something in the book and in
the first second chapter. I don't see it in my head.
But you talk about like a list of great books
and things where you know you can develop your mind.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
I want to know what is Ken samples on his
list for books that you would maybe go back and
read every year. Do you have anything that you go
back and be like, Hey, you know what, I don't
need to read this once, I need to read this
over and over on a psycle rotation here, because I'm

(49:20):
really interested in what books would be on that list
for you.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
Yeah, I would define a great book is a book
that you can never exhaust fully exhaust. It's a book
you can never fully own, and thus it's a book
you can read it when you're twenty, and what you
would get from at thirty and forty and fifty may
be very different. And of course the best example of

(49:47):
that is Scripture. Scripture is the greatest of the great
books that obviously has inspiration in the Holy Spirit, but
you know, in nineteen seventy eight, the first Christian book
I ever read, Mere Christianity. I've since read it, I
think about fifteen times, and every time I read it

(50:08):
it still challenges me. It convicts me, It shows me
my sin. It teaches me a little more about the
Trinity that I didn't know. And so I have gone
back to it, and I've had students say, Ken, why

(50:28):
would you read Mere Christianity fifteen times?

Speaker 1 (50:31):
Couldn't you be.

Speaker 4 (50:31):
Reading other books? I said, Well. C. S. Lewis is
this individual who can take substantive issues and make them accessible.
And I know how he did that. In World War
Two he was trying to encourage the war effort. He
would go to the Rif basis and talk to these

(50:54):
young men and many of them weren't coming home. I
mean they a casualty rate among the ermine is just
sky high. Sorry for the pun. But Lewis began going
out and he realized, you know, these are just common,
everyday young men. They're not Oxford Cambridge types. So he said,

(51:16):
I need to think about how can I communicate my
ideas in what he called uneducated words? And Lewis is
a master at that. And so the last time I
read it, I thought about He made me think about
the Trinity a new he made me think about morality,
and he motivated me to want to go and read

(51:38):
other books by him. Saint Augustine is, of course, a
great example of this. I remember R. C. Sproull saying
in a comedic way, he said, if you've been a
Christian for more than two years, and if you haven't
read Saint Augustine's Confessions, you're sinning. I want that. I

(52:02):
have read the Confessions, probably twenty times, I don't know.
The last time I read it. I decided I'm going
to I'm going to have my pencil and paper, and
I'm going to note every time Augustine cites Scripture or
alludes to Scripture. And it was six hundred times, six

(52:27):
hundred times. People like Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, they
largely had the Bible down. And these were unique individuals.
And I share with people, I say, look, you know,
Augustine wasn't an Apostolic author, and nor was Aquinas, nor

(52:47):
was Athanacious or en Zome. But these were shapers of Orthodoxy,
that is, they took the biblical data. They articulated the Trinity.
They defended it, they shaped it, and it's very important
fundamentally to be a student of the Bible. But don't

(53:07):
downgrade these other individuals in light of scripture. They were
the ones who had to take the respond to Arianism
and respond to Pelagianism. So I love the Confessions. That
would be another book that I returned to frequently and
in large measure, because I'm always learning from Augustine. But

(53:30):
I often when I read that book, I think of myself,
I because I think Augustine was so forward thinking that
he wasn't just writing about hisself. He was writing about
humanity's pursuit of God. And I see me in there,
and that kind of draws me in others. Every Christmas

(53:51):
I try to return to On the Incarnation, which I
think is a masterpiece of theology. There's even a inn
addition you can get where Lewis writes the uh the
introduction and it's and it's, it's, it's terrific. So these
are some of the books I returned to. Let me

(54:13):
mention one more. Blaise Pascal's ponseis I am just I
don't know how to compliment Pascal. He was a great physicist,
he was a logician, developed probability theory. He was a mathematician.

(54:34):
He was an experimental scientist, developed a calculating machine in
the in the seventeen hundreds. When I when Peter Kraft
is a Catholic philosopher, I like very much, very broadly educated.
And and Craf said the other day he said, my

(54:56):
favorite philosopher is Pascal, and I thought, wow, Craf knows
a lot and he has dug into the ponce. So
those are a few Brian that you know. I feel
connected to them. I feel like when they write, I

(55:16):
can identify myself in their writings. I feel like they're friends.
You know, they're part of the Kingdom of God. They're
part of the Church, and it's not always easy to
find people in the Church who enjoy the same things

(55:36):
I do, and so when I read them, I feel
like I'm being encouraged by them.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
You mentioned something you said They're right at the end,
leads perfectly into what I wanted to ask about. You
mentioned how it's not always easy to find people in
the church that are interested in the things that you're
interested in. And of course that's in the context of
kind of the intellectual life, right but one of the
themes that you touch on near the beginning of the book,
I can't remember off him what the chapter was, but

(56:06):
the idea the church is a school, right, and the
church shouldn't just be a school, but it should at
least be a school, right. Yes, So I think a
lot of Christians that I've talked to don't experience that
in their churches. And again, this isn't like beat up
on the church, because I think it's I think it's

(56:27):
better than it used to be, to be honest, So
I do want to highlight that. But if someone's listening
or and they're thinking, you know, I kind of feel
what Ken said there that you know, I feel alone
a bit in this regard, and I'd like to see
my church become a bit more of a school, if
you will. What would be some kind of practical steps

(56:49):
you'd give them to move in that direction, other than
beginning to educate themselves, of course, but beyond that.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
Yeah, I love the Pelican quote the church is always
more than a school, but it cannot be less than
a school.

Speaker 3 (57:03):
I knew I read that that was in the book, right, Yes, yes, yeah,
I didn't want anybody think I thought of that no way.

Speaker 4 (57:11):
I'm sorry I outed you there.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
No, No, I'm.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
Glad you did, because I was pretty sure I read
it in the book. But then my mind's like did
it was it in the book or did I read
that somewhere else? But anyway, go ahead, Sorry.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
It's you know.

Speaker 4 (57:24):
I appreciate your comment, though, Chad. You know, I visit
lots of churches and they don't do things exactly necessarily
the way I would. I have attended the Catholic Church
in my life, I've attended a Lutheran, Reformed in Presbyterian,

(57:45):
and now I attended Anglican Church. And so, you know,
I don't want to be negative and criticizing what I
see people do. I want to draw them in. I
want to help them. I want to build done what
they're doing. Well. Yes, and there are there are a
lot of lovely Christian people who are very sincere in

(58:08):
the way that they are living their life for Christ.
But we do have intellectual people and it is easy
to feel kind of out of place, you know, if
you want to talk about issues of science or philosophy
or history, and a lot of times people you know,

(58:29):
they're not used to that kind of thing. I offer
some recommendations. One recommendation is to start a book club.
You can maybe locate people in your church that hold
similar views and say, hey, what if we took one book.

(58:52):
Doesn't necessarily have to be a classic book, but we
might We might want to move in that direction where
you could read it and you could have a leader
who would interact and talk about those kinds of things.
So you're you're building a little bit of community. You
realize you're not really just the only person. I also
encourage pastors to from the pulpit acknowledge that that learning

(59:19):
is important, that loving God with your mind is important,
that we need intellectual people. There are lots of young
people leaving the church. Part of bringing those people back
and keeping them at the church, I think is exposing
them to thoughtful people can help them grow. So it's

(59:39):
kind of ironic that we're losing people out of the church,
but it's the people that can help them that are
that are sometimes isolated. And I say, why couldn't we
bring people into the church. Uh, bring a bring a
scientist in, bring a philosopher, a historian, bring a literary

(01:00:01):
scholar in, and have that as part of the outreach.
You know, we talk about children's ministry, we talk about marriage,
why don't we talk about the people who are intellectuals?
How do we navigate that area? And I think a
lot of times the churches are kind of oblivious to that.

(01:00:24):
And I wrote an article a number of years ago
about trying to find your place in an evangelical church,
and it just blew up on social media. People were
coming out and saying, Oh, it's exactly my experience. You know,
I feel kind of alone in that kind of context.
But Chad and Brian, there are a lot of people

(01:00:46):
that may not be able to appreciate how important learning is,
how significant it is. It's not the be all, it's
not everything. But you know, for me to be around
the two of you and talk about ideas and talk
about a book I've written, I find that so enjoyable.

(01:01:09):
I find it so encouraging. I'm interacting with people who
care about things that I care about, So I'm always
trying to convey to people pastors that look don't there
is an area of the ministry that's ignored, and it's
often the intellectual people, and you want to be able

(01:01:32):
to bring things up with them and not feel intimidated
you know, some pastors feel intimidated when they have, you know,
thinkers come into their church. But I think if they
can be humble, they can begin to make some changes
in the church that can really help individuals. And you

(01:01:57):
know what's interesting, it seems like there's a new appeal
to book clubs. Almost everywhere I go, people are reading
books and they're having book clubs, and that's their kind
of social connection with each other. And I say, amen,

(01:02:17):
I love that kind of thing. I can imagine, you know,
sitting around drinking tea or coffee, having a snack and
talking with people about a great book you've been reading.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Yeah, all right, Oh, I got another question, and this
is another off the beaten path, But all right. I
asked this question because you're into the life of the
mind and lifelong learning. So let's say someone says, hey,
I really want to master a particular topic. I have

(01:02:49):
a good understanding of a particular topic, or they're they're
engaging with a book or something like that, like, Hey,
what's the best way for me to really absorb this
train myself to see this from all angles. If you're
approaching a new topic, can how do you think about
that in your head.

Speaker 4 (01:03:09):
Yeah. Many years ago, I began to see how important
it was for me and others to think in a
worldview fashion. And so I approached the group at RTB
and I said, look, I think I'd like to write
a book about worldviews. I think that this is very important.

(01:03:31):
We can't know everything about what other people believe, but
we can develop the Christian worldview. We can compare it
and contrast it with competing world views, and I can
expose people to the kind of the fundamentals of worldview thinking, metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, esthetics, logic,

(01:03:54):
et cetera. And I began thinking to myself, Okay, how
can I how can I pull in people who are
evangelicals who don't have a deep background. How can I
write about substantive issues? Because if you don't address substantive issues,

(01:04:15):
then very thoughtful, reflective people will say that's not what
I need. But if you don't make it accessible, you'll
have very limited areas. And I have always taught a
Bible class, and I would frequently have very thoughtful, well

(01:04:36):
educated people in my class with graduate degrees, but I
would also have young young men and women who would
be coming in. They were you know, they were now
out of the Sunday school phase and they were into
something deeper. So I would be asking myself, how can

(01:04:56):
I address these topics in a way that I can
raise the substantive issues, but I can also make them
as accessible accessible as I can. Again, this is that
CS lewis element. So I started thinking about worldviews. I
began asking myself, okay, need to I need to come

(01:05:21):
up with a list of the critical worldview books, and
I need to think about that, not not just christianly,
I need to think about worldview because worldview thinking also
involves other It's very much built upon philosophy. So I

(01:05:41):
needed to think about the topic of worldview philosophically theologically.
Then I began making a collection of books, reading through them,
and I began asking myself, is there something that I
can contribute, not just you know, not just a repeat

(01:06:02):
of all of these things. Is there something that I
can add that I think can improve, can help make
a contribution. And again I often think of that idea
that if I can say something simply, not simplistically, if
I can say something clearly. I love the word clear

(01:06:24):
and I'm glad it got in as the title because
clarity has a force all its own. When you present
an argument with crystal clarity, it just has an impact
on people. So I think, Brian, the way of going
about something like that is you're going to have to
expose yourself to the good literature. You're going to have

(01:06:49):
to do a series of checks to see what kind
of literature comes down. I think you also need to
think very seriously about what is going to be the focus.
What is going to be the contribution of a book
like that. Let's say you were going to write it,
but if you are just going to to be developing,

(01:07:10):
I think you would do something very similar to that.
I'm often looking for people who are well educated on
a given topic, but yet are people that have the

(01:07:31):
they have a respect for ideas. I stay away from
people that you know they they're always wanting to They're
always wanting to criticize. I want to say, Okay, I
know what you're against, but what are you for? Tell
me what you're for in that kind of context. So
I will I will go to basic books that kind

(01:07:53):
of just introduce ideas to me, and then I would
ask myself, can I if somebody were to ask me,
what are the better books on the topic, What are
the major categories of that field, and how would a
Christian approach those kinds of things. So those are some
of the things that I work on. Like right now,

(01:08:14):
I'm working on a new book, and there's going to
be a few topics in the book I've never addressed before,
so I'm already thinking, Okay, I want to expose myself
to the best material. One topic is the hiddenness of
God that I'm planned to address, So I'm exposing myself
to differing points of view. I'm reading Schellenberg, but I'm

(01:08:38):
also reading other people who kind of come at it
from different points of view.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
A lot of good insights there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
So one more question before where you start to wrap up, Ken,
and that is, like, I like how your book is
formatted in a way where from my perspective it's it's
really well balanced. But at the end of every chapter
the service summary sort of questions.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
You've mentioned having a book club.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
This might be one that people could work through, or
you could use it in a class or something if
you were teaching, because there.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
Are sort of.

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
The star structure is there to guide you in your
own review and your own sort of study, But also
it could be helping to facilitate classes and things like that.
What's how would you envision someone utilizing this book in
the best way to sort of develop for themselves or
use in classes and things.

Speaker 4 (01:09:32):
Yeah, thank you for that question. Well, I certainly think
that this is a book that could be used in
a number of logic courses. Maybe an introduction to logic.
Sometimes you have intro to logic and critical thinking. There
are other times where you might look at logic and worldview.

(01:09:57):
And so I think that this book, and again Mark's
very valuable contribution, and the last third of the book
with cognitive biases, it could work in all of those areas.
But we also thought very carefully we didn't want this
book to be pigeonholed as a textbook. We wanted it
to be a book that people could pick up, that

(01:10:20):
Christians could pick up. And again, a lot of times
I recommend books to people and they will read twenty
five percent of the book and then they'll stop and
they have a collection of books higher than the table
that where they've write about twenty five percent. They slow
down and they asked me, can well, you know, am

(01:10:42):
I just a bad guy? Have I got a bad brain,
and I say no, it's good to read books that
are over your head. It's good to read books that
are challenging you. You need that. I think our book
is a book that can continue to challenge you over
a period of time. Maybe you know, maybe you've got
the fallacies down. That would be great. Now think about

(01:11:05):
how can I address propaganda, education in doctrination, or maybe
you want to look again at cognitive biases. So it
can be used in that way. But it's also a book,
and I try to encourage people in this context. Brian.
A lot of times people do not pre read what
we call skimming. You can't read every single book you

(01:11:29):
want with a limited number of years you have. You
need to be thinking about how much time am I
going to devote myself to the very best books? So
skimming you could even skim clear thinking in a messy world.
You'll notice that there are very clear three parts. We
have summaries, we define key terms. I have a number

(01:11:55):
of tables that you can look at. I have written
it as a book that could be used by a
teacher who says, hey, look, I'm going to assign this,
but I'm going to sign sections one in three. But
I think that I wrote this book that hoping that
any Christian could pick it up, and even if it

(01:12:17):
felt a little bit heavy at first, they can make
their way through. And certainly when you read about Jesus
right at the beginning, that kind of helps you see that,
you know, hey, our Lord cared about thinking and reasoning,
and maybe you can make your way through various parts
of it. So I am just very pleased by it.

(01:12:41):
A couple of years ago, I had a health series
of events and it was pretty serious. I had to
take three months off work and I it was a
really tough time, and I remember thinking, I said, Lord,
what's going to happen to my Logic book? You know,
if I can't, if I can't recover from all this

(01:13:02):
and get back on the track. And the Lord, through
good medicine and prayer and and all these wonderful things,
I was able to retain my health, and Mark and
I were able to see it through to the end.
And so I'm asking the Lord to bless it because
he tends to do that when I go through tough times,

(01:13:25):
it always seems like his grace is more than enough.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
Wonderful.

Speaker 3 (01:13:30):
Yeah, I just want to say before we wrap up.
A lot of times when I've read books that do
address logic and fallacies and things like that, when it
gets to that section of the book, sometimes they get
that section, those sections can get very bogged down and
feel very like dry and textbooky. This treatment in this

(01:13:53):
book of those topics was easily the clearest and the
best I've read in the sense that there's a explanation,
whether you know, let's say we're talking about a fallacy, Okay,
here's an explanation. Here are some examples. I love how
you used examples that were both Christian non Christian, from
the left from the right, illustrating what you're trying to

(01:14:15):
get people to do right, which I loved. And then
you know, some possible like pitfalls are things to watch
out for when you're assessing it. And I loved how
it was long enough for me to understand it, but
it wasn't so long that I felt like, Okay, this
is getting very dry, this is getting you know, So
I thought that was just excellent. And then secondly, while

(01:14:37):
I have you on here, I wanted to make sure
that I just personally thank you for not only your
intellectual example but also just your example in the way
that you live your life. And I was telling Brian that,
you know, if we could multiply, you know, and have
more thinkers Christian thinkers out there like you, you would
probably be the one that I would multiply. So just

(01:14:59):
just thank you for your example and and just for
all that you do.

Speaker 4 (01:15:04):
Well. I have real appreciation for both of you. You
guys are bright, and you're thoughtful, and you're fun to
be with. I just write books so I can get
back on your show.

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):
Right, all right, Well we'll keep inviting you then, all right, because.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
We love your books.

Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
I just want to remind the readers of Ken's list
here of the books that you should read once a year,
The Bible, Mere Christianity, Confessions by Saint Augustine, on the
Incarnation by Athanasius Ponce maybe and then of course Clear
Thinking and.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
A Mess Up World. So I just use that as
a lead in to remind people of the book.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
But yeah, a lot of great books and worldview books
as well, so we'll point all our listeners to those things.
Thank you so much, Ken for joining us for yet
another great conversation, and look forward to the next one.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
Yes, thank you, thanks for listening. To the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
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(01:16:28):
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(01:16:51):
Chad's apologetic stuff over at truthbomb apologetics that's truthbomb dot
blogspot dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):
This has been Brian

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
Auten and Chad Gross for the Apogetics three fifteen podcast,
and thanks for listening.