Alan Niven: Sound N' Fury | Ep. 500 - Appetite for Distortion

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
This is appetite for distortion. Welcome to the podcast. My
name is Brando. Episode number five hundred. That sounds so strange.

(00:41):
Alan Niven, who's taken a part of a few of
those hours, of the five hundred episodes, not including today yet,
how are you, sir?

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Well? First of all, congratulations on five hundred episodes. That's
a lot of work, and it also shows that people
want to come and hear your casts.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Thank you, Yes, it has been a lot of work.
I will I will always credit my dear friend Ian
still current friend, former co host for coming up with
what I thought was a stupid idea, like who wants
to talk about Guns n' Roses? I mean, they're my
favorite band, but what am I gonna say? November Rine
is my favorite song? Talk about that for an hour?

(01:21):
And here I am basically the length of the reunion,
the three reunions, so eight years, getting the five hundred episodes,
getting to interview you a few times, all sorts of
from Alice Cooper to my hero from the doors. I
mean the fact that I've had John Densmore and Robbie
Kreeger on here will mean so much. I mean this

(01:43):
Polly Shore Richard Fordis, who recently became I don't know
if aware of the podcast, even though he's been a guest,
because sometimes you never know alan you do an interview
and then you just don't know who it's with. You
forget you're in a sort of sort of like promotional mode.
So I don't know. I don't expect to be friends

(02:03):
with people. But even he at the time said for
over fourmers episodes, how is that possible? It's possible because
of getting yeses from people like you, Allen and grateful
all over the world. Because guns and Roses their music.
It's one thing to be heard all over the world,
people singing from other languages singing their songs. It's another

(02:24):
to be listening to some guy from New York talking
about it from all over the world. So just thanks
for being here. And I say that to both you
Allan and everybody listening and watching. So just thank you
for five hundred and maybe five hundred more we'll see.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Well, congratulations, thank you, And so what do you want
to talk about? First?

Speaker 2 (02:44):
So what do you want to talk about for the
wrestling fans? Little Cody Rhodes, I guess right there. So
within those five hundred episodes. I've became friendly ish, I say,
I don't expect to be friends, but because friendly ish
with people, Alan, I've been so grateful You've been one
of those, mainly through email phone conversations. We met once

(03:07):
in Arizona, where I threw up in front of you.
I apologize. Can you how well do you remember that?
Did you?

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Because I remember that, I felt bad for you.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
We've never tell your side of the story. Please, for
those who haven't heard it, let's.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Get something clear. You didn't throw up in front of me.
I was sitting in the delicatess and you were outside
in the parking lot. And I turned around and I said,
there he is. And the wife looked at me and
he said, oh god, he probably came down the wrong road.
He's throwing up, because that road into Prescott from the

(03:45):
south is twelve miles of switchbacks and it's enough to
make anybody throw up when you get there. But hopefully
you weren't throwing up because you were in Prescott, because
Prescott's a nice place.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Oh it was beautiful. It was exactly that, And Dramamine
has become my friend. It was I don't know. I mean,
you're probably used to. I mean, you have memories of
rock stars throwing up around you for partying too hard,
and there's me, Oh I got a belly ache. But yeah,
it was kind of it was a crazy road. So
I've been lucky to be friendly with you. And yes, I.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Will Kendall used to throw up for a.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Gig of Mark Kendall.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, yeah, quite often he'd be in the corner of
the dressing room, throwing up the six pack you'd just
put down.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Okay, I get a Jennery's stomach again, that could be
just a stereotype, but I'll get like an anxiety's stomach
and just well we won't tmi. I'll revert the direction
back to the task in hand. So part of these
episodes and friendships that I've made throughout one of them,
and I'm sorry Alan was Doug Goldstein is was. I

(04:58):
don't want to put a label on it like that.
I haven't spoken to him in a while. There was
a period of time where you know, I know you
guys don't see the eye to eye. That's to say
the least. We'll get into that, but I like both
of you are really nice to me, added the Blue
One day after I had interviewed him a few times
he wanted to work on a book. I was amazed.

(05:19):
I've had, you know, some writing experience. I've talked about this.
I don't want to get too much into it, because
again I have spoken about this. It didn't work out.
I really blame because it's funny Richard his reverse back
to Richard Fortis and how what a really nice guy
he was. He sent me kind of words of support
because he listened to episodes where I talk about how

(05:40):
the book didn't work out, and he said, it's not you.
I can tell you know you are are a smart,
smart guy. You can you were kind of You've kind
of blamed it on the marketing place. Somebody who wanted
to quick turnaround. That guy even said like, we got
to do this quicker if we want to get it
in by quarter four or whatever. And I'm like, we're
not working like that, So he just wanted At the time,

(06:05):
I was really down on myself. But since then, you know, again,
it hasn't worked out with Doug. It's kind of I
feel kind of like almost like an X, like an
X kind of thing I just didn't work out, like
sometimes with a boyfriend, girlfriend or whatever. It just didn't
work out. That's how I feel. I don't know. I'm
like maybe Axel in that way where I'm like, you
know what, I leave it in the past. I've kind

(06:27):
of moved on. I remember that conversation with you at
that that that lunch where my wife I was trying
to prepare you that I was working on Doug's book
because I knew of the relationship, or lack thereof. She
has blurted it out. You were obviously not a Do
you remember what you said to me. There was a

(06:48):
few things he said to me. You said, uh, well,
well that's what did you say to me? I don't
want to take up too much of this this setup.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
That was ages ago. I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Well you tried to warn me.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
I I think I might have tried to give you
a heads up, and hopefully I did it in such
a way that it wasn't what I probably should have said. No,
I tried to give your heads up.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
You did, And forgive me for giving such a preface
to this conversation, but it needs it. You were actually
super professional, which you always are when you want to be,
like we all do. And I remember even calling you
or we spoke the day after. It didn't happen like
I just the book fell apart. He said, sleep on it.
Don't do an episode right now. Let everything digest. He said,

(07:38):
I'm sure it's for the best all of these things.
You really didn't push your feelings onto my feelings, and
I really appreciated that. But we hear it talk about
your feelings. And since the book, it's been a couple
of years since it hasn't worked out. And the reason
why I'm still talking about it here is that there
have been stories that have been living in my head
that I've been sharing on the Podcas asked that I've

(08:00):
been sharing with fans that I don't know if they're
true or not. So it's like, am I sharing misinformation?
I don't. I don't know. There have been people who
have gathered your stories and Doug stories, the person who
I used to like, McK wall, who you were unfortunately

(08:21):
part of that situation. Where do you remember that that
quick little interaction by the way, on Twitter on email
where he thought he called me an idiot because uh,
I said, Axel wanted this is one of the stories,
the actual that the Doug told me that Axel agreed
to fight Vince and said only if we could fight

(08:43):
to the death, and it has to be in a
country that allows that. And that was sent out to
Vince and he never responded, So I put that out
on Twitter. Mick Wall was not tagged he and at
the time I think I was mistaken and I thought
you had said that to me. But I looked in
my drafts and it was Doug. Maybe you told me.

(09:05):
I don't know if that story is true, So you
can tell me now, because even in private email, I'm like, Mick,
we've spoken, we had a great interview. Why are you
calling me an idiot, like I'm some guy telling you
to get in the ring thirty years later? So that's
actually that's a a jumping off point. Is that story?
Do you know anything about that story actual Evince, how
it either fizzled out or how it culminated or anything.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Oh, they just fizzled out. I mean, you know, they
yapped at each other through various things like MTV and
so on and so forth, and tame journalists, but it
just fizzled out. The I remember the actual incident well
because I was walking off stage with Izzy after they've

(09:52):
just done something with Tom Petty performed Tom Petty and
Vince come. We're in bathed in stage light and we're
coming into the darkness, and out of the darkness comes
Vince and HiT's izzy. And Vince is not a prize fighter.

(10:19):
And the biggest effect he got was is he being
a bit taken aback and startled, Whereas I have to confess,
at that moment, I got ahold of Vince, put him
on his back on the ground, put my knee into
his chest, and raised my right arm ready to thump him.

(10:40):
And lord if I can remember the drummer's name in
Petty's band, lovely guy, but I can't remember his name, mum.
But he grabbed me and pulled me off and said,
you know, you don't want to do that, and he
was right. I mean, you know, can you imagine me
smashing Vince's.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Some headlines in the day of headlines that might have
taken the cag you know.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
And Vince scuttled off, and then Axel turned up and
heard what had happened, and he and I together went
looking for Motley, and when we got to the back
of the building, we were in time just to see
Motley running away in their limousine, but Axel and I

(11:30):
at that point were intent on discussing the matter further
with them.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
So these are things.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
That that's and it just fizzled out. It was just stupidity. Now,
if you want to talk talk about something, let's talk
about how guns and roses fell apart and who was
responsible and why and what happened and when.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Okay, we can so we can jump ahead, and I
want it, and I'll shut up because we're here for you.
Even though it's the five hundred episode. This isn't about me.
This is about everybody, and then just the fun stories
we've been able to get here amazingly through the podcast
from people like you.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Is that.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, I'm sure you don't remember, but it sticks with me.
When I told you that the book was ending, you
said good because I like you and I didn't want
to have to sue you. Uh So these are why
I'm bringing up these stories so with the end, because
Doug's thing and I looked it up right before we
started recording, your name was mentioned almost three hundred times,

(12:35):
not all negative, but a lot of it was almost
three hundred times. And it's You're not the whole book.
I mean there was just a lot towards the because
he came in at the beginning almost you were there,
but obviously he wasn't. But towards the end, I guess
we need to get into your your your firing. So
here's hold on.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Hold on a minute, let's get something strang. Okay, Doug
Goldstein was employed to be a tour manager. Okay. He
was not there for the pre production of Appetite. He
had nothing to do with live like a suicide being

(13:17):
put out. He was employed to be tour manager. And
then I brought him into the company because I thought
that was the best way to maintain some loyalty and oversight,
because there's an old saying he who is on the
bus wins. There's a long history of tour managers who

(13:42):
fuck over managers because they're on the tour bus all
the time, so they're sowing little seeds their own interest.
And I thought, you know, if I bring him in
into Stravinsky, there's a chance there I'll be able to
get some loyalty and keep him in place and keep

(14:04):
some continuity. He replaced again, I'm having trouble remembering his name,
but there was a British guy that I had originally
for the band doing tour managing, who was also a
good sound man. Colin was his name anyway, Colin and

(14:29):
Colin screwed up, so I had to find somebody fast,
and I was recommended Doug by Richard Feldstein, who was
my accountant, Great Whites accountant and eventually gnr's accountant, once
I got them away from the accounting firm they were with.

(14:50):
And the reason I got them away from that accounting
firm was the guy who ran it caught me up
and offered me a ridiculous price on a Bronco that
was owned by one of his clients called Paula abdul Okay.

(15:14):
And my read of that offer was he's trying to
compromise me. And if you're trying to compromise me, you're
not somebody I want involved for one of my bands.
So they got moved out of Boulevard.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
By the Way, just so I can fill in things.
I wish I had a producer, but I got to
be my own producer. Was the drummer first to go
back a little bit, Tom Petty, Steve Farron, No, No, okay,
Well that's why I need a producer. I'm a failure there.
But you are right, it's going through my notes here
Colin who he thought it was Australian, so I don't know,
and I guess he did that he was doing more

(15:51):
coke than the band members.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
That was according to that's what is Isy and Slash
told me. And they threw him off the bus. And
I happened to be in Seattle when that happened, because
I had a band playing in Seattle at night and
I had to get on a plane and fly down
to La catch a fly, get down to Texas, down
to Houston as fast as possible, and you know, make

(16:16):
sure that the ship didn't ground somewhere. And this is
on the Cult tour. But anyway, Goldstein was the tour manager.
He had nothing to do with forming the marketing strategy

(16:40):
that I employed to get the band broken. He was
the tour manager. He makes some rather extravagant claims of
his significance. And the one thing I will say was, yeah,
you were significant as the manager. You did a good

(17:02):
job as a tool manager. And I could right on
the bus getting to the next gig knowing he was
on it.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Here's it.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
But in terms of dealing with the label, he never
dealt with the label. He had no creative input. For example,
the first three or four guns videos were all my conceptualizations.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
It is only thing she gives you credit for, by
the way, everything like ye with you here?

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah, yeah. It was my strategy to go through England
and break the band through England. I was painfully aware
that we were not going to get a welcome from
ao R Radio, So I knew that the only way
that I could break this band would be by touring

(17:58):
and getting to the English US fast and getting to
the English press before the likes of Faster pussy Cat.
What are the bands were around at that time?

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Huh, Well, in the early eighties on the sun Set Strip.
Because I know you guys tore with with Faster pussy Cat.
That was that that.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
First we we we actually took him to England and
Germany with us.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
That was Dog's first show. That was Dog's first like
for that that famous story where the drummer of Faster
pussy Cat was was sent was tied up and put
in the lobby. So everything is.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
They didn't put him in the lobby.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
They put him in the elevator.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
No, they took him outside and dropped him in the snow.
It was so freaking mean of them. But anyways, so
Doug is a tour manager. That's what he's good at.
And let's get something else straight, because this it's not
it's a matter of history that we can all look at.

(19:05):
And because it's history, it's incontrovertible. And the fact the
matter is that once he and Michelle Anthony pulled their coup,
what do we get out of Guns n' Roses? We
get the Spaghetti Incident, an Axel solo record masquerading under

(19:28):
a GNR logo. And you know that, to me was
the biggest sin of No, not quite the biggest sin
of the record. The biggest sin of the record was
that it was boring. That Chinese Democracy was a boring record,
but calling it Guns n' Roses was not honest. It

(19:48):
was totally a solo record, and that's all has been
since nineteen ninety one. So you have to look at
it and go, well, Doug, well, Michelle, that worked out
really well, didn't it. All those years were lost, all
those creative years that could have been. Who knows what

(20:10):
that band could have done had it stayed together, had
it kept its chemical dynamic, and by that. I mean personality,
not what goes up. You know, is he and Slash's nose.
Had the chemistry of the band stayed, who knows what
they would have written in those ten twenty thirty years. So,

(20:36):
genius Goldstein, is you created the situation where that band
fell apart and we lost the prime of the band.
And we can thank Michelle Anthony for that too, the
band's lawyer.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yes she was.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Did he tell you about his affair with her? Know?

Speaker 2 (21:00):
I really didn't get other than his marriages. We didn't
get too much into his u extra extra curriculars. Uh
So I don't, I don't. I can't speak to that.
But what I can speak to you is is that
I understand you have an opinion that is shared by
definitely a section of fans because we you know, it's

(21:22):
been a longer time since Chinese democracy, the weight from
Spaghetian incident into the Chinese than Chinese to now, and
the output, yes, since is he left, since Steven left.
These are things that whether you've got.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
It the day day, you've got it in a nutshell.
I mean, it's it's wonderful that bands manage to have
long careers, and I could be accused of going, well,
you see it that way because that's what it was
when you were there. But for me, the first crack

(22:00):
in gn R was losing Stevie because nobody played with
his feel Stevie. To this day, Axel has not employed
a drummer who can swing. They're all thumpers. Stevie Stevie
could swing. Now. Steve the best technical drummer in the world,

(22:21):
not even close. He's not a great he's not a
great technical drummer, but he had such a spirited enthusiasm
for being in the band that that informed his feel
and he could swing. So losing Stevie was that was
the first crack. Losing Isy, you've lost the band because

(22:45):
is he was the main writer with the absolutely unimpeachable
rock and roll feel and rock and roll conciousness. He
was the best writer. Okay, Losing Izzy was Doug's first,

(23:11):
well not his first, but his major, major, major mistake.
That was stupid.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
So I guess let's get into into that, because it's
a whole other discussion losing Izzy and Steven and the
sound of the band, and I mean this happens to
other bands and carrying on, but the people at play here,
which is you and Doug and I. You know we
Doug offered. I know you said no at the time

(23:40):
when I was talking to Doug. So I guess I
got to represent just a little bit here. You know,
people are like, oh, you should get since you talked
about Alan and Doug, you should get them on the
same episode. I think I tried once Alan said no,
I'm not going to push it. So I got to represent.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Just I'm not ever going to appear in any forum
with Douglas Goldstein. There is no equivalent. He is a
treacherous little tour manager. He is not a producer. He
is not a manager.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Before he.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Who who did the shows in Denver apparently famously said
that he was an overpaid security guard.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
There's a because while I enjoy your way with words,
there's there's a few things I want to just say
for him and then then you can react, because yes,
he was hired as a tour manager, and he really
explicitly said to me that we had a great division
of labor. He did his thing. I did my thing.

(24:50):
It worked, he didn't.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
Do There was no division of labor. He was my
fucking employee. That is not a division of labor, that
is painting himself in the best possible light that he can.
He was my employee.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Well this sets up, this sets up something else, because
he said that you were at the risk of losing
of Axel firing you. And there was a specific insign
permanently of Axle fire No, No, that was before this.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
That permanently. Axel was always threatening to fire people or quit.
And I mean he had me banned from the Aerosmith
tour for three weeks at the beginning of it because
I refused to cancel the tour. The problem was, Axel,
I didn't sign a contract just for you and your whim.

(25:44):
I signed a contract with five individuals collectively known as
guns n' Roses, and I have a responsibility to five people,
not just one. The other four wanted to go on
tour as it was. I chose a very strange way,
to off the wallway to get out of that conundrum.

(26:08):
When he called me and said, cancel the tour because
I've got is he in the room. He said, no,
We've got to go, you know, and everybody else wants
to go and do the tour, but Axel says, cancel it.
So I picked up a pair of dice and threw them.
Did you know that story? No. Old Stein was in
the room. He didn't bother to tell you that story. No.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
I will say, there was so much that we didn't
even get to. That was part of the frustration of
the book is that I was given these deadlines where
I wasn't getting I got a lot of stories. I know,
I didn't get everything. But his thing was that he
basically saved your job. This is his word, this is
his thinking. That he saved your was saving your job

(26:51):
consistently for like almost two two and a half years. Act.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
You know what Tom zuit Out told me.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
What's that? Tom? I know what Tom said, because he
wants to arsked me five thousand dollars for an interview.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Oh good god, are you kidding me?

Speaker 2 (27:04):
That's what he told a friend of mine. I said,
can you reach out?

Speaker 1 (27:07):
Oh my god, Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
I don't put for interviews, let alone five k. But
anyway I can see.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
So it's Axel's birthday and I actually go around to
his apartment that morning and I take him a really
nice white ovation guitar as a birthday present, and then
I had a dinner for him at the Dome, the

(27:33):
dump as we used to call it. Axel, Tom and
Doug Doug an accident, Doug and Tom went up to
Axel's apartment to pick him up and bring him down
to the dinner, and everybody else is there. We were

(27:57):
all there. We're all seated at the table. Now was
seats at the end of the table. And I felt
a hand go on my shoulder, and then Tom's head
was right here and he whispered in my ear, Doug,
Goldstein is not your friend, which was the first time
I had a third party tell me that he is

(28:20):
putting poison in Axle's ear all the time. And Slash's
own book, he said, you know, it was always to
him that Goldstein wanted to snatch the brass ring. He
was a treacherous individual.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
So Doug I was going to have this conversation with
him when we got to it, that he needed to
soften his stance on Slash, even though Slash had said
some poor things about him in his book, because Slash
is so beloved, but he was like Slash and I
did so much of the business together. We would be
in the same hotel room working on the business together.

(28:53):
So I don't know where bullshit. He believes that him
that Slash and Duff there lines their history has changed
because of unfortunately of what if you have said, So
Doug wants to clear his name. So again, I'm trying
to tell a story.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
All shit. The one person first of all, he was
the tour manager okay, an employee. Secondly, in terms of
relying on a band member to quote unquote talk about
the business and do the business, the one person I
could rely on consistently was Izzy. Stuff was a drunk

(29:33):
and not connected to the business side. Slash was being Slash,
and especially when he was younger, he really was Slash.
You can imagine the shit he got up to. Stevie
had nothing to contribute in terms of business, and Axel
was usually locked away in one of his homes pissing

(29:56):
and moaning about something. The one person I could rely
on to talk to was.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
His Okay, he didn't have He said, there wasn't much
about Izzy, that you were you and Izzy, that you
were the pair of that from day one is he
thought he looked like a cop and never really trusted him.
That's that's what he did.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Look like a cop. His father was a cop. Yes,
his father was a motibike cop. Yes, I mentioned, and
he gave me the creeps.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Well, here's actually a point.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
I'm not good with authority figures, especially.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Well, here's a good thing to bring up based up
to jump off that point obviously.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
And we'll talk about your book later. But in the
theoretical uh Doug book, of course, like with any autobiography,
you talk about your childhood, and I wanted to focus
a lot on that because everyone does the drug sex
and rock and roll stuff. So building a good foundation
of who you are. So part of the foundation of

(30:56):
who he was came down to he saw the relationship
between his father and his brother in you in Axel
that he saw his brother was bipolar. And by the way,
these are the stories that Doug has told before and
interviews on my podcast. That kind of what frustrated me.
I'm like, what's new that you're telling me when you
told all the story before. But he said that you

(31:19):
were kind of like almost an authority to Axel, and
the father, just like you said, was an authority. So
he's like, oh my god, I'm reliving my childhood and
he spent so much. He's like, I couldn't fix my
dad and my brother when he Allen and Axel okay.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
Stop right there, okay, okay, stop right there, because you've
hit a good point. Authority figure to Axel, I was
an authority figure to all of them. They were a
bunch of fuck ups who Geffen wanted to drop. Eddie
Rosenblatt wanted to drop the band before note one of

(31:54):
Appetite ever got recorded. When I came on board and
signed a contract of them. Apparently Rosenblat told Zoo to
have that he was going to give me three months
to turn it around and make it look productive. Otherwise
the band was going Tom didn't tell me that until
years later, by the way, but when I came on board,

(32:16):
as far as Geffen was concerned, if I didn't make
it look real within three months, they were going to
get dropped. They were Hellians. No one wanted to manage them.
Why was I managing them? Because everybody else said no.
Cliff and Peter, Tim Collins, I mean, all of them

(32:39):
did not want to do it. I didn't want to
do it to start with. Either. A seduction for me
was actually slash when I realized, oh, he's really intelligent
and charming. There's a little bit more to this than
I thought. You know, that's where I started to get

(33:00):
sucked in. Well here I was an authority figure to
them all. Okay, now they've gone through all their all
their advances. They were a complete mess. The label wanted
to drop them. And that's where I come in the door.

(33:20):
When I walk out of the door, they just sold
Wembley Stadium. I think I did my job. I think
I did my job well, and the way I did
my job was the way I had to do it
to get the results. Now are you going to say
that I didn't do my job?

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Well, No, I wouldn't say that, right, I dared not
say that. Why would I ever say that? I And
I'm letting you know again the stories that I've heard
from Doug, this.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
One I love. He runs around saying I got guns
and noses, the best renegotiation ever. Star fucking bullshit. Okay.
The fact of the matter is it was Brinn Bridenthal
who told me Brittany's dupress at Brennan and I got

(34:14):
along really well, and she said I got some scuttle
bout for you, And I said, oh really, what's that?
Said Howard Kaufman, who managed White Snake, had been in
to see David Geffen to ask for a renegotiation of

(34:35):
the contract for Whitesnake, and I said, oh, how do
they do? I mean, they deserve it, They've just sold
five million albums. And Brinna looked at me and said, nah,
David never renegotiates a contract ever. And I said oh.
And she said what was worse was he had already

(34:56):
been in and asked and been refused, and had come
back with David Covered, thinking that David Geffen would not
refuse his star. And I said, oh, my god, he
goes his knees taken out by Geff and in front
of David Coverdell. That's embarrassing. And she said, well yeah.
And Tim Collins came in and tried to do the

(35:18):
same thing with the Aerosmith contract and he got shown
the door too. So what did that tell me? When
brinn told me that, because obviously I was thinking along
similar lines too, it told me that you can't ask David,

(35:41):
you have to tell him. Okay. So I had a
birthday party for my then wife at chardon Ay and
I invited Eddie Rosenblatner's wife to be there, and I
sat next to Eddie and I counted the glasses of wine,
and then I turned around to Eddie and I said, Eddie,

(36:03):
don't shoot the messenger, but I want you to take
a message back to David Geffen. You can tell David
that if he doesn't renegotiate the Guns n' Roses contract,
I am going to take the band out on tour
and we are not going to deliver to use of
your Illusion album. And I said, well, we'll have a
great time, the band will make pots of money and

(36:25):
you won't have a record, so he needs to do that.
He'd left. Soon after that, I got a phone call
from from Geffen. I think it was a day or
two later, and he demanded that I meet him, and

(36:47):
he was there before I was, which was uncommon for David.
And as I'm coming up to the table, he starts
screaming at me in the restaurant, I will not be bullied.
You will not do this. Dada Da Da da. There's

(37:08):
an actress sitting right behind me. Her name was she
had had I think called I think it's called doctor
Quinn medicine woman. Her name was Stephanie Seymour, not Stephanie Seymour, Jane.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Stephanie, Jane Seymar forgive me a g n R on
the brain obviously, Jane Sewer, Yes, doctor Quinn, medicine woman,
beautiful woman.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
Yeah. And David is screaming and yelling at the top
of his voice, and I'm aware of this woman just
sinking down in her chair like this, this blast of
negativity is going past me and into her. And then

(37:49):
he got up, stormed out of the restaurant, left me
sitting there. We didn't break bread, we didn't order anything
to eat, we had no meat. He just stormed off,
which was after I looked at him and said, David,
I mean what I say, We're going on tour unless

(38:10):
you renegotiate this. We're going on tour anyway. But if
you don't renegotiate, I'm going to put things on.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Sale so we can said a temper tantrum in front
of and Seymour.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Oh oh, well that was part of David. That was
part of David's arm. Now his methodology. He's scared a
lot of people. I mean, you know, I could tell
you a number of things. Well, anyway, so let me
wind up the story here. So yeah, so I hear

(38:45):
nothing from Tom from Eddie Rosenbat from David Geffen, and
I'm looking at the calendar and I'm going, fuck, they
gave me. They think I'm bluffing, and they're going to
call it. And once I get to a certain date,
I have to start pre production called the tour, and

(39:10):
I'm going this is bad. So I put Alpine Valley
on sale and it sold out really fast, and that
was my last shot across David's bow. I'm serious. We've
got our first gig sold out. The other gigs are
going to go up soon. And then I get a

(39:30):
phone call. And every time I got a phone call
from Geffen, it was always imperious being Geffen's office, David's
office at such and such a time, you know, and
it's like I could be doing something else, be involved
with some other thing. But if I got a phone call,
it was always being David's office at such a time.

(39:51):
And I got one of those phone calls. Here we go,
another screaming match. So I drive up to get them.
And I used to have this exercise. I don't need
to do it these days, but I used to have
this exercise. It's a breathing exercise where you breathe in
hole breathe in through the nose holder. And I went

(40:14):
into his bathroom to do this exercise because I wanted
to get myself settled because I was anticipating another wonderful
screaming match. I go into this office and everybody is
in there, Gersh Klodna, zuit Out Berman, the head of

(40:36):
business Affairs, a couple of other senior executives, and they
were all standing in the bay window, and there was
opposite the bay window was a boarded up fireplace and
there was a small chair there, and Geffen was standing

(40:57):
over to one side in front of his drinks table,
and he indicated that I should sit on a small
chair with all his executives standing looking at me, and
I'm looking at this situation. I'm going, what the fuck
is going on here? And then David offers me a drink,

(41:20):
playing the gracious host, and I'm getting even more disqu
what is he up to? I passed on the drink
and he said he turned around and said, okay, Alan,
we're going to do the renegotiation. What do you want
in the contract? And then I knew what the fucker

(41:41):
had done to me. He'd ambush me, the person who
should be talking Togevin about what goes in the contract.
Is their fucking legal representative, not me. You don't put
me on the spot and say what do you want
in the contract? And it was an act of pure
fucking intimidation to have all those people in the room

(42:04):
and then hit me with that. How you respond I
responded by saying, it's simple, David, I want the best
contract on Geffen Records. You can't have that. Oh and
why not because David Henley's got it and he's got
a favored Nations clause. And I sat there for a

(42:29):
moment and I said, you know, it's not a problem, David.
We can have exactly the same contract as David, he
as Don Henry. But this is what I'll do. Every
time you account to guns n' Roses, I'll go to
the City National Bank and I'll get one uncirculated, pristine,

(42:52):
perfect dollar bill and I will personally send it to
Don Henley. I guess it just fucking glowed at me.
And then suddenly he said, okay, everybody out.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Everybody else.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
All his executives left, and he said you stay here, Alan,
And when it was just he and I, he said,
I'll do this. You'll get the contract, it'll be as
good as Henley's. Have the lawyer call, and I went,
thank you, and then he couldn't let me go with
the victory without trying to undermine my sense of of

(43:34):
course the moment he leaned into my ear and he said,
you know, you might be the Brian Epstein of your day,
which was very disquieting because Brian Epstein died and some
people don't know whether it was a suicide or something else,
and he made some bad decisions about merchandising along the way.

(43:56):
Brian Epstein is not somebody who I would model myself on.
And I walked out of that and I'm thinking to myself,
what the fuck did he mean by that? But anyway,
here's the point. Goldstein didn't know I was there. He
didn't know what I had said to Eddie Rosenblad. None

(44:18):
of the band died. I did not want any loose
lips sinking the ship. This is something that none of
them knew about. So when they were busy plotting to
get rid of me, Michel Anthony his girlfriend and who
was the band lawyer, and Goldstein, they had no idea

(44:39):
that this was on the table. Okay, so I already
had the commitment from Geffen that they were going to
get the best contract on Geffen. Okay, before I was fired.
Now I've heard some ridiculous stories about him claiming that

(45:01):
he'd beat Jeffen up in his own apartment. There is
not a bigger pile of fucking horseshit than that, according
to Tom zut Out, who told me about it when
the lawyer lawyers told because I obviously called GNA's lawyers
and said, worrying for a renegotiation, you need to get

(45:26):
with Geffen, you need to do this. Da da da
da da. They obviously told the band and Doug what
had been done. Now, what I'd done is I'd got
somebody who never ever had renegotiated the extant contract and
made him agree to do it, and not only agreed
to do it, but make sure that it was as

(45:48):
good as it could be, as good as Henley's. He
had already made that commitment to me.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
You know, it's interesting, and I'm glad you brought up
the yeah, because there is a story that he Doug
told me about out going to Geffen's house and.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh no, no, no, no, hold on, hold on. Okay,
what I heard from from zoot Out was typically I mean,
you know, Dougie could be a really Some people would
say he was very friendly and charming. I would sometimes
say he was just obsequious. But the obsequious version of

(46:23):
Doug went to Geffen and begged him to keep the
contract in place because if he did that, that would
secure him looking after the band and getting the management
position and keep everything on an even keel. That's what happened.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Okay, So yeah, so yes, there is a story. I
hadn't heard your version of that before, so I.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
Know it's actuality.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Forgive me, yes, the actuality of it, Doug's version. Let's
just say Doug's version that happened after the fact. But
we mentioned by.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
The way, by the way, one thing, I never heard
it myself. I only have it from third hand. But
I was told that when they were out on that
tour the acts, we had a code name for Doug.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
I don't know that.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
When they when he was on stage and they had
a walkie talkie and things and actually wanted Doug do
you know what what? He'd yell into the walkie talkie.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
The only name, the only name I know they referred
to him as was Dougie, so I assume that was
not it.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
I used to call him mister bullshit.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Mister bullshit.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Okay, get me mister bullshit. I want mister bullshit now
Now I never heard that, but I did hear it
from more than one person.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
So you wanted to. You mentioned it before about the
firing and what guns Roses have or haven't done since
your departure, which I think there were just a lot
of variables to blame, but or just reasons why. I
don't even want to say blame, just reasons why, because
I don't know firsthand. I only know stories from you, Doug,
things I've read. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
There is only one reason why Axel got control of that.
Axel got control of everything.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
So we got to get into those specifics because so
this is I know where you disagree, and I just
need to let the listeners know. This is kind of
the jumping off point for you. Yes, Doug was hired
as a tour manager, but there was a point, you know,
I think eighty eight where again he alleges that actually, yeah,
he was always ready to fire you, but was really

(48:38):
going to fire you this time say I'm not going
to the next show. Uh, and I guess I have
to start there because he had there's a lot of
there's a lot of levels to this. So apparently Axel
had allegedly or whatever your better worth of words than me,
had just had his annulment from Aaron Everley, and Axel

(49:02):
had called Doug told him of this news, and he's like, Okay, great,
you know, I know this is being weighed heavily on you.
I'm glad we can move on. You can move on,
YadA YadA. And at the time he Doug said that
you and Axel weren't really on speaking terms and thought
that this would be a good opportunity for you guys

(49:25):
to kind of bury the hatchet or whatever, just just
say hey, I'm sorry this happened with you, move on,
just kind of like start from a square one kind
of place. And then you had answered it in a
really I don't know, just like not in a mean way.
That's the best way I could put it. That's what
he alleges that you said. He called him a failure,

(49:46):
that his wedding, his marriage failed, because that's who he is.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
And Axel hung up, called Doug back, said that's it.
I need him gone, and Doug's like, oh shit, I
don't know what I'm gonna do now, absolute lie. Well
that's where it goes bleeds into the story that is
absolute lie. Okay.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Just before I got I got, I was in the
meadow Lands at a gig in the meadow Lands and
somebody came out of production office and said, Axel's on
the phone. And I went to the phone and I went, hey, Axe,
what's up? And he said, I can't work with you anymore.

(50:35):
And I said something like, well, I'm sorry to hear that.
I'll be back in a day or so. Let's go
and have dinner and talk about it, and if you
still feel the same way, then that's what we do,
all right. The last time i'd spoken to him before
that was two days before that, and he called me

(50:58):
at home and the main thing on his mind was
why is it difficult for me to get people to
do what I want them to do? And I said,
you can be a bit prickly. You scare people. I've

(51:22):
often wondered if in his mind he thought, I said
you can be.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
A prick I think you've told me this sill okay, right,
But it had nothing to do with Aaron. It had
nothing to do with Okay, it had nothing to do
with I mean that was pretty specific, and that's kind
of what I alluded to before. I want to get
these stories out. So if he ever comes out with
his book.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
The whole thing with Aeron, I will tell you is
if I would have said anything, it would have been
I think you're better off out of it. Eron used
to wind him up all the fucking time. Why did
we have a fucking riot at the Phoenix Celebrity Theater

(52:02):
Because Eron was fighting with Axel up in the hotel
room and he would and that was it, and he
wouldn't come down. And more than more than once picked
him up from his home and took him to my
home because he and Aaron are fighting, and I was
fucking scared that it would get dangerously physical. At some point.

(52:26):
Aaron was constantly winding him up.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
He dog that he did say that about.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
I am not I was not a fan of Eron
of that time. I don't know who she is now.
She's probably a lovely woman with kids and the family
and so on and so forth. But then she was
a little minx I like that word, and caused problems,
all right, I'm spending every single day. Keep this in mind.

(52:56):
My joy in making rock and roll pretty much came
to an end in September of eighty six when I
signed the contract with NL, because from then on it
was pressure, anxiety and stress all the time. We're in Toronto,

(53:24):
second or third day on their very first tour with
the Cult. The first two shows had been somewhere like
Monkton and somewhere I can't remember exactly, and I could
only get to the third show and I just dropped
my bags on my bed and there's a bang on

(53:44):
the door. I go to the door and as Izzy
and he looks frazzled. He pushes past me, goes into
the room, flops into the sofa, and I go, is he,
what's up? What's wrong? That fucker makes us fucking miserable

(54:09):
every fucking day. It's a quote I'll never forget. Oh,
I mean, you know, is he and I used to
spend a lot of time together, And you know, I
don't think it's that much of a secret. That is
he woth found it difficult to have to deal with actual.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Well, that's why he left. That's why he famously left. Yeah,
of course, I mean that's that's.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
Why, Yeah, was not thrilled when he turned up in
La you know, and he he made that trip to
l a twice. I think it was only on the
second time round that he managed to, you know, stay
the course. I mean, that's just Axull.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
You mentioned something that needs to be brought up.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
A guy who throws the guy who throws holiday furniture,
hotel furniture off a balcony at fans, the guy who
ends up on the front of People magazine with a
headline battered Beauties. I mean, you know, it's no secret

(55:18):
he had a really tough childhood and I think there
are some incredible scars that he's had to live with.
And I find it interesting that he never managed to
get a marriage going and he's never had kids. And

(55:38):
I don't think it's purely selfishness. I think it relates
back to things to his childhood. He went through a tough,
tough childhood. Yeah, that's on record, and I always took
that into consideration. But he's not exactly missed to go

(56:02):
along get along. You know.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
You mentioned something again keeping on the subject of Axel,
the celebrity theater and something else that was a story
that lives kind of rent free. In my head that
what the no show because of fighting with Aaron. That
this is when Doug was there. He was just security.
I was just tour manager at the time, had no

(56:27):
It was so early on in his tenure that you
Axel wasn't there. And this I think this is at
the airport that you gathered the guys around and said
we need to fire him. We need to fire Axel.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Okay, let's get it right.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Okay, Well, I guess I'll finish the end of it.
And you can tell me that you don't.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
Have to finish the end of it because I can
hear all the crap already. We were at the airport.
In fact, there was a moment when ax walked past
me flowering. I mean, the guy, he is really good
at showing his mood with his body language, you know,
you just kind of he was crying. I had breakfast

(57:08):
for the band there, and this is what I told them.
I said, you need to make up your mind if
you're keeping Axel as a singer. But this commitment I
will make to you if you guys decide you want
to find a different singer, I will not drop you.

(57:32):
I will still stay as your manager. If that's something
you want to go through. I don't want you to
be in a situation where you cannot make an important
decision because you're afraid of the knock on that. If
he goes, then you know, I'll probably go too, because
it's a band of no singer. I've got other things

(57:55):
to do. I've got a band that is developing very nicely,
and I'm having to spend an awful lot of time
on guns and Roses that I could be spending on
this other band that I've been working with since nineteen
eighty two. All right, So what I told them was
it's up to you, Okay.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
So there was no situation where after the fact, Slash
goes up to Doug in a Sungery store and asked
his opinion, So what do you think we should do?
And Doug in one answer thing that's that's not my place.
I'm not the manager, And it's like, no, come on,
tell me, what would you do? Would you know? When
you keep Axel And he's like, well, if you're going

(58:38):
to fire him, you're not going to fire him at
the end of you know, at the beginning of an
album cycle. You're going to wait you know, you just
put out appetite. So it's like.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
He's there was only one person. There was only one
person who whose opinion need to be sought and discussed,
and that was Tom Zuit out the A and R man. Again,
that's the only person that that issue should have been
discussed with Tom, and Tom was adamant. Tom was, you know,

(59:09):
we've got to keep Axel.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
Sure, Well it leads me to again that going way
back in our conversation, as we're you know, about an
hour into it and just it flies by, doesn't it?
An hour? Just flying by in an hour already? Yeah,
something like that. So there was I know, we discussed

(59:33):
this off the air that and I know you're going
to say the beginning it's a lie, but just bear
with me that you were really about to be fired.
Doug believes that in order to keep Axel on the
band and everyone together, you had to bring him on
as a partner because he was so close with Axel.

(59:54):
And well, I said, I'm fifty to fifty. That's what
I you know, whatever, So I know, both bullshit. Okay,
So after that happens, after that era.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
The guy, the guy cannot open his mouth without spilling
out bullshit and lies. Oh my god, there was. I
heard a great story about him at a dinner.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
I don't know if I is it too personal. I
don't want to get overly too personal. I want to
get like GNR focused and stories that where if he decides,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
I thought the one thing I thought, the one thing
that would be worth talking about was his relationship with
Michelle Anthony. And they were the ones who conspired to
get rid of me and encouraged Axel to do it.
You know, this is a woman who Peter Peter Patno
used to be the band's counsel, and Peter left to

(01:00:53):
go and start Hollywood Records for Disney, which he had
to be replaced, and Peter asked me to consider another
person in the firm called Michelle Anthony. So you know,

(01:01:14):
I got with Michelle, and I rather thought that having
a woman involved in an environment that some might describe
as misogynistic at times would be healthy, and Peter's recommendation

(01:01:34):
obviously meant a lot to me, so I said, yeah,
we'll take on Michelle. It was one night after a
dinner Doug boasted to me, I didn't know if I
thought he might have just been bullshitting, boasted to me

(01:01:55):
that he had driven her home and been intimate with her.
And I remember very much the phrase I used. I said,
you keep your fucking pen out of the company. And
I thought that was the end of it, but apparently not.
They were an item for a while and obviously thought
that they were going to be the power company. They
were going to get rid of me. Doug was going

(01:02:16):
to take over, and she was the band attorney. This
is a big step up for her in profile, you know,
and it stood her world. I mean, this woman now
is number two at UMG head of recorded music. This
is a person who cannot write a song, produce a record,
or as far as I'm concerned, employ astute judgment, because

(01:02:40):
her and Goldstein, between them, manage to have guns and
roses completely fall fucking apart. You know, an AXL being
disgruntled with me, He was constantly disgruntled with me. Do
you know how many times he said than to me,
You're never once.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
You know what's fun? I was just watching because it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Was not once in what five six years, not once
did he turn around and say, you know what, it's
pretty cool where we're at. Thank you. Not once is
he slashed.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
I was actually just watching because he was the anniversary
of the American Music Awards, where you know, Slash and
Duff were cursing up a storm. And even if they're
all the cursing and the slurring of words, Slash said
thank you Alan Evin. He said thank you Doug Goldstein
as well, but he got his thank he's in there.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Slash was kind enough to say thank you when he
was inducted into that bullshit organization, the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
A bit of crap, that is, Yeah, that's that's a hard.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
I am not a fan of the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. It goes against the very idiom of
rock and roll by institutionalizing what should not be institutionalized anyway. No,
let's not go off on there.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
No, I agree. I actually had to work the radio
broadcast of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame this year,
and I'm just like, yeah, there are people who deserve it,
and there are people who really just don't deserve it.
It's not a rockets, it's not the Music Hall of Fame.
Maybe we can have a conversation, but it's the rock
and roll.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
The stories an appearance are merely amusing gossip for those
who have got nothing better to do. Oh, what you
can do is to look at it from a historical perspective,
which we've already mentioned. This is where they were when
I came on board. This is where they were.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Okay, so check me to the curb. Let's let's get there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Thereafter you get one shitty album of rotten covers and
you get a boring solo album, and that all that
happened since nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
I will just say I understand where you're coming from.
I enjoyed the Spaghetti incident and Chinese democracy, But I digress.
I give what your Hey, there were good punk rock
songs to begin with, so now they just covered them.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
What's the point of doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
To delay the next the album that never came, the
album that that was some Chinese democracy.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
No point in doing it. I mean it's anti punk
to do a cover of a punk song. It goes
against the spirit of it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
I mean, I like that they encourage people to look
up the originals and the original artist got all the royalties.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
I think people did that for themselves. People did that
for themselves. Never mind the bollocks went gold in the
wake of the sales of Appetite for Destruction.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Did you know that I was not aware of that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
Yeah, it was stuck at somewhere between two and three
hundred thousand sales, and then it started to sell again
in the wake of Appetite. People go and find out
for themselves. We talked about the sex pistols or not,
but that's how it took it to gold.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Here's a dropping off point the story that's been don't
tipped my tongue since we've been talking, and again I
think this is this is good because if he ever
just started to put out his book, I know he
wanted to work with me again like a year ago,
but I'm like, I got a kid now, I don't
got time for this. Like's a different relationship now. I
can't do it. But I'm going to help him, but

(01:06:36):
getting stories out there so he won't be sued by
you later on. So there's a reminder. I'm helping him.
So so he's obviously I've told you this before we
talked about it. He maintains that he did. He didn't
want you fired. He was there for you when you
were finally fired. He didn't make a decision yet whether

(01:06:57):
to stay with you because he maintains his loyalty because
you gave him his first shot, you bought him like
a car, apartment, you were, so he maintains that how
wonderful you were to him to getting this opportunity. But
he goes to your place and much like you're kind
of smoking. You know, I don't know where exactly it
is now. He's a stokey though I sound like a

(01:07:18):
like I know what I'm talking about? Or are you
smoking right now?

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
Alan?

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
What do you have? A sirute chot? Charot a charot?
So he said you had maybe a cigar in your
mouth at the time, So it's kind of appropriate that
you're smoking something now while turing this. I mean, you've
been smoke at all episode. But still it's kind of
cool to know that you kind of have the same
effits anyway, Like he got in the hot tub with

(01:07:42):
you and you said just really again allegedly mean stuff
about acts really mean, like wishing him like I hate him,
I wish him harm, like I can't, you know, fuck
this guy. And that's when Dougs have decided, like I
can't believe Alan would say these things. That's it. I'm
staying with guns and roses. He wanted. He wanted to

(01:08:02):
get across that he hadn't made up his mind until
he spoke with you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Number one. I never invited him into my jacuzzie, all right,
That is first and foremost. I never invited him in
my jacuzzi. And he was planning and planting to take
over for a long time. We all know it. Okay,

(01:08:33):
who were there, We all know it. He was planning.
I mean, you know I told you about Tom suit
out coming into the dinner and leaning into my ear
and saying, Doug Goldstein's not your friend. Well, I didn't
think he was much of a friend anyway, but I
thought there was a chance he might be a loyal employee.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Here's here's something that he mentioned that really hit home,
and I wanted to focus on this a lot, kind
of a different This was after the tragedy in docin Donnington.
Forgive me sorry, Yeah, in Donnington, and you guys had
an adjoining room and I guess you you know you

(01:09:15):
were drinking that night. No harm, no foul. There he
knocks on the adjoining room, You knock on the adjoining
room door. You answer, you're in your underwear and you
just you open your heart to Doug and say I
love you. You've taught me to trust again. Thank you.
And he just said because he in this, because again

(01:09:35):
I'm trying to get across the good parts of what
he wishes he could say if he did connect with you,
at least from what I remember that, He's like, that
was like a big moment between you two. I mean,
you were, like you said, you were inebriated. You may
have no memory of this, but he remembered and just
thought that's where your relationship was. Like you just were

(01:09:55):
different but at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
Okay, okay, absolute fucking bullshit. At the hotel after the gig,
slashed and I went to the bar. We were sitting
on stools at the bar and I felt an arm
go around my shoulders and somebody's draping their arm around

(01:10:19):
Slasher's shoulder at the same time, and this idiotic voice said,
why are you guys so down? Three or four people
die at a South American football match every weekend. It
was fucking yeah. I was just stunned at what he said.

(01:10:44):
I left the bar, I went upstairs, and I don't
mind admitting that I locked the door and I cried
my eyes out. I was totally fucking destroyed by what
had happened that day and having to deal with it.
And no, he came into my room and I wasn't
inebriated and I wasn't drinking. I'd had maybe two was

(01:11:06):
slashed by that point. But once once.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Idiot Davidly Wrath, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
Mean, what in inane thing to say?

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Because this is fascinating. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
Continue After that, I was up to my room and
the condition I was in emotionally, I wasn't talking to
anybody I got I think I got on the phone
and called one of my London friends to talk to
him about it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
But I was devastated and understandably so. And he recalled
the entire band being devastated, particularly Duff and an Axel
and this is this is what's fascinating, and then show
you how the different stories and fans. It's up to
you to decide who's telling the truth. So something I've
I've told before, maybe I don't know, or at least

(01:11:54):
he said it. The reason why I was able to
fill in the blank with Davily Wrath is because his
dog's Rosier and Axel goes to David Lee Roth and said,
you know, and he knew of Doug's relationship with davidly
Roth because he had work security on the Eating Smile tour.
He had done some legs of the nineteen eighty four tour,
so they had a relationship there. Say, hey, can you

(01:12:14):
introduce me to davidly Roth? I know he's been touring
a lot longer than me, Like, because you have any
advice and I had to handle something like this, and
to the effect he said something like what you just said, Hey,
it's you know, Europe people die soccer matches every day.
Come on, man, it's something like really like heartless that
you can sadly picture Davily Roth saying in his voice.

(01:12:35):
But so it happened with you with a slash, not
Doug an axel. That's yes, that's very fascinating, Like did
he just borrow a story? I don't know stories.

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
All the time, I saw a freezing I don't want
to see his fucking face.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
At any time he destroyed one of the greatest rock
and roll events in the world was the Encapsulation. But
I caught a thing where he was starting to say
something and he was about to appropriate that he was
significant in how I got Axel to the coliseum at

(01:13:16):
a Rolling Stone show, all right, and he was going
through let me tell you when Axel was looking like
a nose show at the Stones, do you know what
Doug was doing? Balling his eyes out? He didn't know
what to do tour manager.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
I mean, he's told me stories about getting into helicopters
and getting Axel from the hotel. So which is the
opposite of doing crying that he once flew a helicopter,
So somewhere crying at a helicopter.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
He might have done that after nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
He might have Yeah, that might have been after.

Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
I don't know what he did after ninety nine. Do
you want accept nothing?

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
So here's something you bring up. And I gotta, I
gotta put whatever demise of the old version of guns
and Rows, I can't, I personally can't put that on
Doug because what is he supposed to do? And he
said with like Chinese democracy, He's getting called into you know,
Geffen's office, He's getting called and he's like, you know,

(01:14:23):
by Jimmy IV and I believe, like, where's my record?
Where's my record? Okay, you go in and you tell Axel,
where's my record? And see how he responds like, it's
just it's up to Axel whether to do something or
not to do something. So what is is only you're
damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. And
maybe he just survived that long by not pushing him

(01:14:45):
too hard. Where everybody wants up.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
On the time. We had a band, We had a
band chemistry, we had a band dynamic. Okay, it wasn't
all down to Axel. An awful lot of what happened
with G and R in the early days was in
spe it told Axel, not because of okay, So what after?
What changed? After nineteen ninety one? I'm gone? And is

(01:15:10):
he's gone? Then it's all about Axel and Doug is
just his butler. I mean, for God's sake, he got
a housekeeper to be his manager. What does that tell you?
Did he work with Irving as Off? Did he work
with Doc McGee? The one thing I will say is

(01:15:33):
I take my hat off to her. She's got him
through an awful lot of awful lot of shows. And
I know what he's like, and I know what it
took to get things done. And I think she has
done amazingly.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
She has because there are stories that I don't feel
pritvy that are right for me to share and that
don't involve you. That was just what she's done for Axel.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
I'll talk to you about one or two stories in
bowing her off there.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Yeah, sorry everyone, but it'll be of it comes down
to uh and I think what it came down to
the Unfortunately, what it sounds like from Axel's perspective, if
I may, is a trust thing where for whatever reason
he didn't he seemed to trust. Whether it was a
systematic thing by Doug trusting him more than you, or

(01:16:27):
he uh trusts better more than these other managers, because
I actually I love doing on these this day thing
and on social media and forgive me, I need to
just you know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
It's not a trust thing. It's a control thing with Axel.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
Okay, well, I want to control.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Here's another little snapshot that is illuminating and goes to
forming a correct perception. Axel takes fifty percent of the
income of Gun and Roses.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
Now currently he takes half of.

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
It, yes, fifty Okay, that to me is anathema. He
is not Guns and Roses. Guns and Roses were a collective,
they were five individuals. It was a chemistry, it was
a moment. But Axel wants to be in control of

(01:17:25):
everything all the time. And look what that gets you
a boring solo record and a shitty thing of punk
covers and that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
Listen to there was a time. Listen to the guitar
solo of from Buckeheat just if you give it a second,
if I may, But the solo in.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
The middle of the song that you don't really care about.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
I know, I know, I love your you know where
you're coming from, because it's a different We talked about this.
You were there almost a ground zero because obviously you
know before there, when they got signed that when they
started me I you know, my first opportunity to see
them live was not the real Guns or Roses. I
guess it was with Buck Ahead. So my perception is

(01:18:13):
very different. I became like a fan as a child
when they already had broken up and use your illusions
were out and everything. So my perception is very different.
And that's what I love about this podcast. Different perceptions,
whether you're just a fan or worked with them. But
to go back to before there was and whether it
holds to to today or not, and go back to
Beta I recently because I do on this day stuff

(01:18:35):
and has a great it's basically the Guns and Roses Library.
It's called Appetite for Discussion. It's a good thing I
didn't name my podcast that. It's brilliant. The curators of
that ever, almost every article and video interview from almost
the beginning, it's insane from all sorts of languages. So
there's one with Beta from I don't know, early two

(01:18:57):
thousands something like that that said that she said to
Axle normal managers, like you keep going through managers, they
keep trying to get you to reunite the old band.
You're unhappy normal managers. And that's kind of when it
started there when he has his team Brazil around him,
that it's sort of and that he has this family

(01:19:19):
that he's never had in Theory growing up around.

Speaker 1 (01:19:24):
Him, and he also has a solo career instead of
the Bandguns and Roses, which is just what did they
have to do and what did they have to do
in the end, Well, the promoters were not coming forward
with guarantees of three million a show when it was
just Axel. As soon as he got slashed and stuff back.

(01:19:44):
That was enough, all right, So let's you know, let's
call a spade a spade a spade. He had a
solo career with her with Beta, and they needed at
least those two back to ACT. We'd be able to
go out there and make it work with the kind
of guarantees that the promoters were not prepared to give

(01:20:05):
to Axel as a solo artist. He'd run his course.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
I mean, also, given the history of the no shows
on that Chinese Democracy tour, I'm glad I caught the
last one before it, you know, completely went to ship.
But Doug maintains that he tried to convince Axel that
this is a solid thing. But Axel was just like, hey,

(01:20:30):
I I built guns and roses. All those guys left me.
You know, they left guns and roses. This is still
my thing. Well, that says your response right there. That
was his feeling is that he felt abandoned by everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
Then his in his mind, well he would.

Speaker 3 (01:20:50):
I mean, you know, some some people talk about the
the victims like geist that we have in our social
environment at the moment.

Speaker 1 (01:21:05):
For good reason. Acts was really good at the victims igeist,
and I think that comes from the terrible childhood he had.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):
Yeah, and that's something I you know, for everybody. I mean,
we all have trauma to speak and that's what he's
gone through. It's nothing I would ever ever take away.
And that's something I also bring up often mental health
conversations and not to try to give an excuse for
a certain behavior, but when you try to explain it,
you know, this is it's you could see why there

(01:21:36):
are trust issues here and if you don't have the
proper treatment, which was not available like it is now.
You know, early nineties it was not available. So you know,
you talk about guns and roses. Now here's a question
for you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:50):
Yes, ask Axel what joy he thought I got from Kena?

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
What joy that you got? Our joy that he got?

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
Yeah? That I got. You know, it's all about Axel.
It's all about Axel. It's Axles the center of the universe.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
I mean, I would love to ask him anything.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
Why did well?

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
It's interesting that is he well? It seems like is
he was worried about becoming an addict? Again, you can
tell me that right? And was did not? The inconsistency
of Axel showing up the latenesses and I think just
the time on the road weren't all those factors.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
For listen, G and R, what's an impossible situation that
exploded in our faces. None of us knew or were
prepared for it to be as huge and its impact as.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
It was, which is what makes it so special.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
And with Izzy, he was never come the wall with
that level of acclaim with And there are so many
aspects of it. Do you know what I noticed? How
people people changed the way that they deal with you.

(01:23:18):
There's a an obsequious deference that comes into play in
dealing with some people. You're not sure who to trust.
I'll tell you this more than once. I've turned around
to the wife and I said, I never had more

(01:23:40):
people around me and never felt lonelier. M hm, there was.
My My sense of trust was incredibly brittle, and I
know it would be stupid things. It would be like
one of the executives Get and his wife worked at

(01:24:01):
Vogue folding up wanting Axel to do a photo spread
in Furs and the Vogue, and immediately my reaction is, well,
that's going to do the street cred of my band
a lot of good, you know, and it's coming from
somebody within eff and you've got to deal with it
and deal with it gracefully and let it down gracery.

(01:24:23):
You know, there was stuff like that all the time.
There was the guy Sugarman.

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
Danny Sugarman, Yes, sent me a.

Speaker 1 (01:24:34):
Letter saying you wanted to talk to Accent and write
a book about him, about here and how he was
such a trickster, and so on and so forth. And
the thing that got me was the letter came on
Doors letterhead with the Door's logo at the top from
Danny Sugarman. And I'm going, what the fuck does he

(01:24:56):
think he is? He's not a member of the Doors.
Do I want this person in our volatile environment? No?
I don't get rid of him. You know, people like
herb Rits. I mean, Axel got Stephanie Seymour out of
a folder of photographs. He picked her out of a

(01:25:20):
Herb's ripped folder. I mean. And this guy was positioning
himself between the models and the successful rockers for his
own benefit. Just the kind of weasel that you don't
want in a volatile environment.

Speaker 2 (01:25:37):
I can't imagine it was endless. I'm sure endless then,
and I'm sure it's endless now. So you mentioned again
alluding to now and the fifty percent that allegedly or
you tell me that that Axel is making. So what
does that mean Slash and Doff for making twenty percent each?
Is that? And is that why there is no really union?

(01:26:00):
Like what is he said? Because it's not just yes.

Speaker 1 (01:26:03):
That's that's that's why he's not there.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
That's that's that's just sad.

Speaker 1 (01:26:10):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:26:10):
I think that's a lot of fans feel that way,
as excited as many of us are for the tour
this this coming year. And uh, for someone like me
who didn't initially see Axel and Slash coming up, you
know this this reunion of sorts was the first opportunity.
So I'm you know, I'm looking forward to I want
to take my son. But when you see, you know, Izz,

(01:26:31):
he's out there. He made a that's necessarily a public appearance.
But uh, Bernard Fowler shared a picture of him from
the Rolling Stones because he went to a Stone show.
So we saw an easy appearance this year and Stevens
still touring and it's just like man, money, you guys
are all still alive and you you see all these
once do do you think it will happen? Once, as

(01:26:57):
they should.

Speaker 1 (01:26:57):
They should do it once in film it, you know.
But you know, is he wanted to do that around
the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame thing, and he
set up a meeting to talk it over with the
acts and persuade him, let's just do it for the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and then it's done

(01:27:18):
and we can say thank you good night. And apparently
Axel didn't turn up for the meeting, so one more time,
is he it was frustrated and annoyed.

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
Yeah. I mean, if you have a history of being
stood up by somebody and they do it again, I
understand that. Do you think something because is he has
made it's been a few years he's made, you know,
appearance with Axel when he was with the other in
Carnation of Guns and Roses and you know, you broke
on this podcast that he showed up at a rehearsal.

(01:27:56):
I mean, is there still a friendship there? Do you think?

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
Because I have no idea, no, okay, I but you
would hope that at some point that they could be
able to sit down and have a pot of tea
and some crumpets together and you know, and have some
sort of sense of perspective and acknowledge that, yeah, you

(01:28:23):
did something in your lives.

Speaker 2 (01:28:27):
I mean they really did, and you did it together.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
It would be it would be nice, it would be
appropriate to do that at.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
Some point, especially this year being the forty fortieth anniversary
of the band that is a co founder. Yeah, forty
years Alan. Not to make you feel any older than
you that you may do. But in another name, I
do want to mention, and I I don't want to

(01:29:00):
keep you here forever, but there are certain stories I
want to mention. Well, I do got you is Steven
Adler and he recently turned sixty years old. I mean,
happy birthday, Steven belated birthday. The fact that he's still
around is I mean, all these guys, there's fact that
it's so around is incredible. But there was there's always

(01:29:21):
that something.

Speaker 1 (01:29:22):
That that was something that Doug and I put a
lot of work into.

Speaker 2 (01:29:26):
Well here's the thing that Doug spoke a lot about
the rehabs he would take and take Stephen two, that
he would try talking to his parents figure out what's
going on, and that it was really him and Axel
that tried to keep him on board and push the
blame onto you and slash for saying, Okay, we can't continue,

(01:29:49):
we can't record, we got to move on, we gotta fire.

Speaker 1 (01:29:52):
Out to Axel was the one who was determined that he.

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):
Went okay, He says, a.

Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
Yeah, did Doug ever tell you the story of what
Stephen Adler did to Aaron.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
Every I'm afraid to ask. I don't think I know.
Do I want to know that story? Is I got
to get Steven in trouble?

Speaker 1 (01:30:15):
You want to know that story?

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
Okay, Well, I don't know any of that story.

Speaker 1 (01:30:25):
Yeah, Stephen's lucky to be alive for more than one reason.

Speaker 2 (01:30:29):
I guess we'll leave it at that, because as I'm
trying to help, if he Doug work, if he's working
on his book, for him not to get sued. I
don't want to get sued by some stories that I
don't know. People get mad at him. Plus I don't
know Stephen, like a lot of these guys like actually
we're talking about how he was, Like, you just hope
they're in a good place now. They're they're all in

(01:30:50):
their sixties now. Is there something that is there a
part of you where you have these memories that are
I don't want to put words in your mouth. But
whether they're bitter memories or just not fond memories.

Speaker 1 (01:31:02):
Of No, it's not bitter.

Speaker 2 (01:31:06):
What would you describe it like? Is there any sort
of like we know about Doug but with Axel to
be like, hey, look what we did before we die,
Look what we did. Let's talk.

Speaker 1 (01:31:15):
I have a cup of tea with him, no problem.
The one person I would never have. Two people I
would never have a cup of tea with. One is
Doug Oldstein. The other one is Michelle Anthony. Okay man,
those two. He said that because my perspective on that
is you are the two who fucked up one of

(01:31:35):
the greatest rock and roll bands that the world has
ever seen.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
I'm pretty sure. And this could be getting my memory
fuzzy of someone else's that he felt because Doug left,
he said, he quit. It's on record two thousand and four,
and that's when before Chinese came out. When Burke I
can't say his last name, it took over and he

(01:32:00):
felt that Michelle Anthony kind of turns his back on him.
So I don't even know Doug and Michelle Anthony they
have any sort of you know, I think she said
some stuff and Slash's block about dog maybe throwing him
under the bus, so he felt portrayed, and again he
claims that again, I don't want to summarize it because.

Speaker 1 (01:32:18):
We've it's a whole different program to talk about Michelle Anthony.
But I will send you an email where if you want,
I'll give you some pointers on to some research as
to who she is and what she does. And oh,
by the way, while we're talking about the head of
recorded music for UMG, let's just consider the fact that

(01:32:40):
most of their artists have been chronically ripped off because
they give away the music to streaming sites for almost nothing,
but they also are co owners or total owners of
the streaming sites. It's a form of theft. And she
presides over that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):
It's I can't imagine. I mean, I speak to some
of the musicians today, it is how difficult it is.
I mean, just from my you know, to compare a
little bit just being in the podcast. I mean the
money that I make off YouTube. YouTube is really making
most of the money, and the same thing with Facebook
and any of that. But this is the system. I

(01:33:23):
don't know. I I that's where bands is that they
need to keep touring. That's that's that stuff, and then
that keeps getting harder. So I don't I don't know.
It's a sad state of music now. But just support
live music when you can. And you know that's my
wife and I you know, my wife's taking my son
to Dave Matthews right now. She's supporting it.

Speaker 1 (01:33:42):
It goes, it goes to levels and levels. I mean,
you know, we could have a long conversation one night
about whether rock and roll was deliberately destroyed. We could
talk about people like Rockefeller who famously said I don't
want educated people, I want workers. And one thing about
rock and roll that I loved and what's really important

(01:34:04):
to me, was that it can be the voice of
the vast disenfranchised. It can speak truth to power. It
can no you know, you go back and you look
at your Dylan's and Neil Lennon's and so on. Those

(01:34:26):
that run the country and the people who really run
the country. We don't see in the newspapers, we don't
see in the TV the mega, mega, mega rich. But
you know, just that little quote from Rockepeller, I don't
want educated people, I want workers. And there are there
are moments when I'm maybe having a shrew when I
sit there and go the way that rock and roll

(01:34:50):
has been deconstructed is deliberate because they, oh, it's fine
to have really dark mental people out there who just yeah,
a negativities and who aren't really artists. No, it's fun
to have vacuous soundlike little girls coming off the Disney

(01:35:13):
conveyor belt for bimbos. You know, you got top that
keeps people stupid, people like Dylan and Lennon and even
a Tom Petty. And I thought Axel was going to
be one of these could tell people some truth and

(01:35:35):
states some truth to power. I thought he was getting
to develop really well when he wrote Civil War. Civil
War was something that I was really thrilled about.

Speaker 2 (01:35:48):
That's something that I really wish because he is not
just with songwriting, and obviously, you know, is he a
songwriting speaks for itself. And Axel's songwriting and writing and speaking,
you know, you talk about whether you want to live,
will it waste a time? Or what as guns and
Roses put out since your departure, since you're firing it's
I would like to see Axel do more, whether it's solo,

(01:36:11):
whether it's a book. I would like to see him
do more because I think he can't speak truth to power,
and there are so many that listen. I know he
had has had his little Twitter moments, but he doesn't
really do that anymore. But we're in a world that
reacts and criticizes. No, it's difficult.

Speaker 1 (01:36:28):
You know. If I was sitting having a cup of
tea with the Axel, I'd look at him and I go,
you know what I think you should do. I think
you should go fucking Bob Dylan. You should go acoustic,
and you should write a political album where you point
out what needs to be pointed out. I think, yeah,

(01:36:49):
you're a working class guy. Fuck the electric side of
the band. Do it acoustic and just make those lyrics
really count. That's what i'd say to him, Go do that.

Speaker 2 (01:37:03):
I have no quomps with that. I know there are
those who say, which is a silly argument, keep politics
out of music? What politics?

Speaker 1 (01:37:11):
They are?

Speaker 2 (01:37:12):
Like married, Like, there's so much you can go back
into early you know, hymns and songs that are about
political things. So I just thought that was like.

Speaker 1 (01:37:19):
A keep keep politics out of music is as smart
as saying keep politics out of intelligence.

Speaker 2 (01:37:28):
Right right? I know it makes no sense it makes
no sense. I'm trying to think if there's anything else
that Well, you've.

Speaker 1 (01:37:38):
Got me more animated than I've been in a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:37:41):
Well, I don't know if that's either good or bad.
Because sometimes I watch my guests or whatever, I bring
something up that maybe and I always like, just like
we did speak off the air in my five hundred episodes,
whether it's guns or roses itself, whether it's like when
I had the skid Row guys on, I'm like, Okay,
we don't need to talk about the bad to back,
but if we do, we could do it like this.

(01:38:03):
And I just watch their mood and I see if
if they're getting really animated, and I'm like, you know what,
I don't want to push too hard. I'm not like Stern.
I don't want to be like Howard Stern, where you
can keep pushing and making people uncomfortable. It's a conversation.
Sometimes it gets a little Howard.

Speaker 1 (01:38:18):
Howard Stern is so tiresomely of not just I cannot
abide Howard Stern. He's always going for the lowest of
the low.

Speaker 2 (01:38:31):
It's funny.

Speaker 1 (01:38:31):
He's always trying to push buttons and be rude and
so on and I don't find a shot jock particularly anything.
I mean, you know, that's that's not your higher purpose,
that's not the best of when you're making records, when
you're putting your time into songs, you're trying to put

(01:38:53):
out things that reach people. His The point of rock
is that it suspends alienation and it brings people together.
And here's the important point, by their own consent. We

(01:39:14):
live in a totally coercive world, whether we want to
take it on state laws, federal laws, traffic laws, religious pressure,
so on and so forth. But you pick up a
guitar and you sing your song, and I recognize the

(01:39:35):
spirit and the intelligence within the song that you're singing,
and it's a willing bridge of humanity connects us. It's
not coerced, and in that we recognize each other and
acknowledge each other. And at its best, that's what rock
and roll does. You know, people say, what's the point

(01:39:56):
guns and ruses? Well, for me standing up for the
worth of all souls, including urchins from under Street to
use the lyric, and standing up for individuality, it's really worthwhile.

(01:40:21):
And when I look back and I look at that
incredible blue collar response that we got in nineteen eighty eight.
I think that's what was happening there. It was people
were going, here's somebody who I understand, here are people
I understand, and here are people who are singing and

(01:40:44):
speaking in ways that are meaningful to us and show
a respect of our worth.

Speaker 2 (01:40:53):
And that's why we're still talking about them, or at
least I am forty years later.

Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
Yes, but yeah, I think that's it, Brenda.

Speaker 2 (01:41:03):
We're also not talking about it. We're writing about it,
or have written about it, right, Allen, So I guess
you have a little announcement to make. I know I've
alluded to it before.

Speaker 1 (01:41:14):
It's not a little announcement. You can go on the
web and see there's a on June twenty four is
the publishing day of something that I finally got off
my fucking back. If I had a dollar for everybody
saying when you can write a book, you know? And yeah,

(01:41:36):
I did try it once and got about three quarters
the way through it, and I sent it to somebody
see what they would think, and they came back and
said it's great, finish it. And my responses fucking thank you, Slash.

(01:42:03):
I was hoping that you would say, I don't want
this book out there. Put it on a shelf because
I was looking for an excuse to shelve it, because
I had no joy in writing the book. It was tiresome,
it was a chore, It was not a happy experience,

(01:42:24):
and I was looking for someone to give me an
excuse to put it on the shelf. So then I
just had to put it on the shelf myself. And
a couple of people kept hounding in, honding and honding,
one of whom deals with writers on a daily basis
because he oversees something like a dozen magazines, And he

(01:42:48):
finally pushed me over and I finally got to a
point of you're really slow, dumb and stupid. You don't
like rock and roll books because they all have the
same story arc, all right, And they're boring and they're
self justifying and they apportion blame because that's the story arc.

(01:43:12):
It's everybody's wonderful together until success and money start pulling
apart and it becomes about control and who gets what
and girlfriends and whatever. They all have the same story arc,
but you're now just an old juke box. And if

(01:43:35):
you're sitting in the corner of the kitchen somebody might
pour you a glass of port and you tell a story,
and if they enjoy the story, they pour you another
glass support and you tell another story, and you just
tell stories. There's no chronological arc. There is no sense

(01:43:57):
of When I was a boy, my dad used to
work at the fish at the fish market, and he'd
come home and he'd beat me with an old cord.
And you know, none of that, none of that self
justification of why I got into rock and roll in
the first place. You know, all that stuff that people write.
I got to the point going, if you're going to

(01:44:18):
do a book, just tell stories. They don't have to
be chronological. Just hopefully they're amuting, maybe they're illuminating. Perhaps
there's a tiny little German wisdom in the stories that
you tell, and you jews. So that's what I did.
So I just sat in the computer and typed out

(01:44:40):
a bunch of stories, and that's what the publisher liked.
So that's what it's going to be. And it's not
a guns n' Roses book. It's not an aroonnithm book.
It's just the book of stories in which a lot

(01:45:03):
of the time I am participating in. But it's not
about me. It's about the people and the stories, and
it's about a lot of people, not just G and R.
It's not a G and R book.

Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
I love that for you from you, congratulations, I can't
wait to thank you, to read the whole thing. You
send me the intro, and just from that, I'm like,
oh man, I can't wait to read it. And just
from a want to be author, to assume to be author,
it just had a lot of what I was trying

(01:45:37):
to do, where yes, a lot of books are the
same with the same arc, and it is about stories.
It's about lessons and trying to do things a little
bit differently, but you know you with your way of words,
and I will definitely have to have my dictionary intosaurus ready.
I'll reading it for sure because I know you want it.

Speaker 1 (01:45:59):
It's really straightforward, it's it's crisp, it's not convoluted.

Speaker 2 (01:46:04):
How many pages, fuck, I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:46:09):
It's about two one hundred and thirty pages. At one
point the publisher was saying, we want sixty thousand words,
and I'm going sixty thousand words. I would like to
finish this before I fucking die. And then I finally

(01:46:33):
figured out how to do a word count on the computer,
and to my amazement, at that point, I was over
sixty thousand, which I didn't realize. Every time I thought
about it, I thought, well, you've got a few stories,
so you've got a few more. And then one day
I just woke up to the fact that, hey, that's enough. Stop.

Speaker 2 (01:46:55):
Was it difficult to I mean, I'm sure some stories
were obvious, but were there story that you felt you
had to leave on the cutting room floor? And you
never know, even though I'm sorry you didn't enjoy this process,
but you never know. Maybe with the reception that gets
from from readers, maybe you'll be inspired to write another
one down the road. You never know.

Speaker 1 (01:47:15):
I'm not not going to say never say never. I
don't know what else i'd write unless it was volume two,
and I don't know if I'd get through Dollard volume two,
but it was. It was something I wanted to get
off my back because people keep asking. And there were
two people who encouraged me to the point where you know,

(01:47:39):
they keep on at me, I need to think this
through and find a way to do it. And one
of them was Scott Rowley, who runs a whole bunch
of magazines in Europe, and forgive me for saying it,
but he finally got me when he said I wish
I could write like you write. And when I got

(01:47:59):
that from him and what he does for a living,
I went, I'm cornered. That's it. I've got to get
to this. Now.

Speaker 2 (01:48:09):
You have a gift, you have a way with words,
and you know, it's one thing in a podcast, but
then just to put it on a page where you
get to really fine tune the craft of language around
these is very cool stories. I think that's going to
make for a special book. So excited for that for me.

Speaker 1 (01:48:27):
For me, the important thing was the story, not the
words that I know. You know, it was like tell
a story and you know, don't forget that. I have
a pretty big catalog of compositions and songs, so having
to do the process of being songwriter, which is edit, edit, edit, edit, ed,

(01:48:52):
and choice of word being even more significant when you're
working in a composition because you don't have that many
words that you can use, and then they have to
have a certain rhythm, that has to be a sense
of inherent melody in the word, whether you're choosing a
certain vowel sound, whether you're choosing a certain consonanent or not.

(01:49:15):
I mean all that I think helped me. So when
I actually started writing, it was like, think of it
like an album. Each section is a track and stands alone.
And if you're thinking of it as an album and
each section is a track, you'd better be able to

(01:49:37):
drop the needle in a and have it come out
at Z.

Speaker 2 (01:49:40):
I couldn't agree. I couldn't agree more. I love that.
And that's a compliment that I got when I was
trying to when I was showing friends the draft. So
a friend of mine, journalist said, this is a great
demo tape, Now go finish the record, and it made
me feel so good. So it's funny. A name you

(01:50:02):
brought up before, Peter Paterno, that big time lawyer. He
was connected to this marketing agency, which is why Doug
only wanted to go there because of his relationship with Peter.

Speaker 1 (01:50:13):
And oh he has a relationship with Peter Paterno still.

Speaker 2 (01:50:17):
Or he thinks he does. I don't know if he
actually does, but he knows that there's history there. I
guess that's why he only wanted to go to this
one marketing place. I'm like all right, this guy doesn't
like me, fuck him, Let's go somewhere else. And that's
why he didn't go anywhere else until I guess he
was too late and fizzled doubt. But it doesn't matter.
It's in the past because you know why, we're getting
an Alan Niven book. And this episode would not have

(01:50:39):
happened if I wrote Doug's book. I think that's fair
to say, right, Alan.

Speaker 1 (01:50:43):
No, I don't think it is no concrete Okay, no, because.

Speaker 2 (01:50:48):
You know you're a good man, all right. I felt bad.
I don't know, like you would have held it again, I.

Speaker 1 (01:50:56):
Did not send you a little parcel of dynamite when
you told me you were writing Doug's book. I mean,
the only thing I felt was I like this guy.
I hope this works out for him, you know, and
good luck. But with you know, what was the question again,

(01:51:17):
if you had written Doug's book, I.

Speaker 2 (01:51:19):
Thought that this episode of thoughts wouldn't happen. But I
saw I'm looking in the way of I'm my.

Speaker 1 (01:51:25):
Only negative with you, and I made it absolutely clear.
Was there no fucking way that I am going to
appear on a screen with Douglas Goldstein? There was, there
is no equivalent.

Speaker 2 (01:51:39):
I think I just asked one. So I was like,
that's it. Sorry, yeah, I will.

Speaker 1 (01:51:43):
I will not give him that privilege.

Speaker 2 (01:51:46):
Well, I tried to represent, not represent him per se,
but just a perspective that if we ever get two
biographies or biographies from Guns and Roses managers, at least
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:52:02):
You're not getting a biography of a Guns and Roses manager.
You're getting a book. You're getting a book called Sound
and It's rock and roll stories. It's not about Guns
and Roses. It's not about me being a manager. It's
just a book of rock and roll stories. And yeah,
I'm sure you know where the title.

Speaker 2 (01:52:25):
Comes from, Sound and Fury. I should know.

Speaker 1 (01:52:28):
That it's Macbeth.

Speaker 2 (01:52:33):
I haven't taken Shakespeare in a Fortnight.

Speaker 1 (01:52:36):
I'll send you the full quote.

Speaker 2 (01:52:39):
I think you did. You did. I didn't know why
you were sending me Shakespeare.

Speaker 1 (01:52:42):
Yeah, but that's where the time that and that's where
the title comes from. It's from Beth.

Speaker 2 (01:52:50):
Well, I'm a product of the American school system, so
I blame that. I will have my son be a
much better student than me. I promise you. I promise
you that he'll.

Speaker 1 (01:53:01):
Be a better student just because of this the computer.
The computer.

Speaker 2 (01:53:06):
That is very true, and I'll make sure you inet
the computer.

Speaker 1 (01:53:09):
You know, I absorb more information in twenty four hours
then I probably absorbed by the year when I was younger.
I mean, my TV is on twenty four to seven,
which is a hangover from touring. You'd get into a
hotel room and they all look the same, and they

(01:53:30):
smell the same and they feel the same, and the
first thing I'd do is I'd turn on the TV
because that would be my digital fireplace. And then I'd
get out silk scarves and drape them over the lighting
fixtures to try and get some different ambient light in
the room. And then I'd like some incense and try

(01:53:52):
and make it. You know, but I cannot go to
go to bed without a TV being on it. It's
on twenty four seven.

Speaker 2 (01:54:00):
I like that it's on a lot. Even like when
my family's not a home and I'm doing work, I
have the TV on. It's because I guess working in audio,
I just need sounds. Sometimes you need peace, sometimes you
need the sounds going on.

Speaker 1 (01:54:14):
And there's a lot of really interesting information out there
now as as a younger person, because I remember the
event with incredible clarity. I always had a fascination with
the Kennedy assassination.

Speaker 2 (01:54:38):
And well, by the way, is that the TV on
in the background right now? That's trying what that's a
TV on in the background right now?

Speaker 1 (01:54:46):
By the way, Yes, yeah, it's on twenty four seven.
It never goes off. Okay, the cats sit and watch it.

Speaker 2 (01:54:53):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:54:56):
But trying to pick your ways through propaganda and genuine
information and figure out what actually happened there and why,
And then the Internet comes along and then suddenly you
are able to get to historical books, people's opinions, this,

(01:55:19):
that and there, and you could formulate your comprehension of
what happened there and who is involved and who did
it and why it was done. And that was all
because of the Internet.

Speaker 2 (01:55:33):
I think that's why I heard someone say that's why
true crime is so popular now because of the Internet
and these all these unsolved mysteries of you know, before
the Internet, and now this is the whole new generation
is way wait a minute, I'm finding out all this
new information. It's right at their fingertips. It's a it's
it's really incredible, and you know, I know I'm not
as old as you, but I do remember the pre

(01:55:55):
internet days and actually going.

Speaker 1 (01:55:56):
To at as old as I am.

Speaker 2 (01:56:00):
It's seasoned. You're a seasoned veteran. That's that's how I
prefer to say it. And I got I got to
get another phrase right. Yes, it's not an autobiography. It
is a book of stories Forgive Me a Sound and Fury,
which I can't wait to read. And is there anything
else that you're you're working on? I know you're always busy.
Is there any like sometimes you work with bands, and

(01:56:20):
I mean a book is a lot. You don't need anything.

Speaker 1 (01:56:22):
There are a couple of things. I mean, you know,
there were moments when I went I feel so obliged,
but I really have no enthusiasm to do this. I'm
never going to get this book out of my system.
But you know, I, much to my surprise, it is
in process. And I went to my local bookstore and

(01:56:44):
they went on the computer and they found it was
already in their system and it's not out until June.
So it actually got done.

Speaker 2 (01:56:54):
Hey for someone who just had just like his foot
in like the of I don't know, a toe in
the arena of trying to get a book done. I
can see how hard it is.

Speaker 1 (01:57:07):
Is the other thing, when you get your manuscript done,
it's going to be a year before it comes out.

Speaker 2 (01:57:16):
Sure, it takes time.

Speaker 1 (01:57:19):
I mean, you know, I thought we took a long
time making records, making books, getting people to publish books
and actually formulate the book. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:57:30):
I'll never forget Susan Duff's wife. She came out with
a book, not it's like loosely based on fact, but it's,
you know, fiction. Nine years. Took her nine years to
finally get that. She had to keep submitting it and
working on it and haunting her craft. And I just
I commend her for that, just to stick with it. Yeah,

(01:57:53):
it's it's just a lot of work. And which is
why to go back the fact that this is the
five hundred episode. I've just found it so much easier somebody.
You know, I'm a journal journalism major, but just being
able to talk on the microphone and another technology that
came across. I did not think podcasts would be anything.
I thought it was a stupid idea for people who

(01:58:15):
can't make it in radio. I'm obviously very wrong. I mean,
there are people who can turn on a microphone and
they sound like it. And there are those you know, professionals,
you know, celebrities have all their podcasts. It's a legit thing.
So the fact that I've been able to do five
hundred is insane to me. And it's become such a

(01:58:36):
part of my life where Alan, I'm not sure if
I told you this. It really stemmed from finding something
to get out of my depression. My therapist like said,
find like a hobby, like I'm in I'm working in radio.
But it wasn't being creatively satisfied. She's like, you gotta
find and I thought that sounded so stupid, Like what
do I like to do? And you know I love

(01:58:58):
horror movies? Like what can I really do do with that?
And just one day, you know, my friend Ian said, Lucia,
you know, also works in radio, we should do a
guns and Roses podcast. And I thought it was so silly,
But he knew more than I did that new successful
podcasters and saw this road ahead and the fact that
I can get interviews, including ones with yours that get

(01:59:20):
picked up by a news outlet, that I get to
talk to some of you, you know, phone email. It's
just a very special thing. To have happened and to
connect with the listeners I said it earlier, all across
the globe who do not speak English for his first language,
who follow me, whether it's on social media, to the podcast.

(01:59:41):
It's so it's humbling. I'm always getting new messages about
saying it's just humbling.

Speaker 1 (01:59:46):
The other aspect of the podcast. And this again is congratulations.
This is five hundred is the fact that you kept
doing it because obviously people said me, you should do
a podcast, and I'm sitting there going that sounds like
a treadmill, don't want to get on. That means I've

(02:00:08):
got to do it diligently every week schedule that's around this.
I don't know if I'm up for that, you know,
So for you to do it, I mean there's an
awful lot of diligence and work to get the fun
well done.

Speaker 2 (02:00:28):
Thank you. I just for whatever. I just loved it.
I just I think I became loving. And yes, scheduling
things is very difficult and probably not to your shock.
Within the guns of Roses World, you could be given
a lot of pushback. People who don't people who don't
like the clickbait that comes out of your articles. Even

(02:00:48):
though I'm like, it's not my faults and just it's
I've had ups and downs, but way more ups than downs.
I mean, when it's such a great online fan community,
but there are those action of fans who are just
nutcases and just you know, cyberbullying. Things happen. But that's
the way in the past.

Speaker 1 (02:01:08):
Oh what what what? What? What is the rule? The
rule is don't scroll down.

Speaker 2 (02:01:16):
That's right, that's a problem with mine.

Speaker 1 (02:01:18):
Yeah. No, what you have to do is do it,
publish it, and never ever read the comment.

Speaker 2 (02:01:27):
I can't. No, it's it's not the comments that I
get because I've been able to curate some great people.
I think it was at the beginning of people who
did not who were already in the sounds so nerdy
and weird, people who are already in the community, who
think that they know everything. And if I come on
here and I tell a story that I may have heard,

(02:01:47):
or I have a guest that tells their version of
a story, and they think it's a lie, and they
are so defensive of Axel and the band. People who
don't they don't know them, but are just so blindly loyal,
and apart from that, it's so strange. Weren't there, weren't there?
Weren't there? And that's something I've said since the beginning.

(02:02:09):
I'm not there. I'm not an expert, you know. I'm
just fortunate to have been told a lot of stories,
or maybe I've educated educated stories so that that hopefully
are true. But I don't. I've never been the US.
I've been there.

Speaker 1 (02:02:23):
Apart from that. Apart from that, you enjoy cinema, don't you.

Speaker 2 (02:02:28):
Yeah, oh, horror particularly, but yes, have you.

Speaker 1 (02:02:32):
Ever seen a Japanese film called Roschamon?

Speaker 2 (02:02:36):
I have seen a Serbian film, So now now.

Speaker 1 (02:02:41):
Those if I'm remembering the film correctly, it's a film
about something like six or seven people all accounting the
same event. It's it's an entertaining film.

Speaker 2 (02:02:59):
From that point, I can see where you're going with it.

Speaker 1 (02:03:02):
But yeah, yeah, so you know, even those who are
there may have a different perspective or a different understanding,
or not really know what really happened, even though they
were there.

Speaker 2 (02:03:17):
I completely agree. It's always amazing how these rock stars
remember everything for times that they were drunk and high
the entire time, but they remember everything. It's quite amazing.
But well, within these five hundred you have a collection
of stories, audible stories. I mean maybe one day or
transcribe them. And you know people do that transcribe, like

(02:03:38):
Howard Stern. We mentioned that before. I know, I'm not
a huge fan either. I think he's a bit I mean,
I know he carved his he paved his way. He's
big in radio, and I respect him for certain things,
but I definitely think he's overrated. I know I have
a problem cutting people off because I just get excitable.
He cuts people off to basically like tell the story
for them, and I'm just like, why are you even

(02:04:01):
interviewing this person when you're telling them the story that
that's their story and you just want them to go
yeah or not. It's just silly. But maybe one day
and I'll put out a book of stories from this podcast.
We'll see. But either way, I mean, five hundred episodes,
who knows what is next? Alan, I just thank you
so much.

Speaker 1 (02:04:19):
I mean, this is thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:04:25):
I don't do two hour episodes anymore. You're special.

Speaker 1 (02:04:28):
It's so far in the rear view mirror an occasionally
if I scroll down, Oh he sounds bitter. No, I'm
not bitter, but I definitely do have a point of
view about some things that happened, and I have a
point of view about some certain personalities involved. And the
other thing is it was a period of my life.

(02:04:52):
It wasn't my whole life. I have been involved with
lots of other things and lots of other people. Just
this particular thing became something huge, and that to me
was a gift and a privilege because and it's a

(02:05:14):
privilege because I didn't have to spend my life going
I wonder what it would be like if with the
things that you care about and are interested. And obviously
I have a love of music, and I love creating music,
and I love making records, and I love writing songs.
I enjoy all that I've been privileged with a very

(02:05:42):
rare level of experience. And I am not bitter about that.

Speaker 2 (02:05:47):
No, you can you can tell. I mean, I knew
from our first conversation that's sincerity that you have and
the appreciation that you have for the people who pave
the way for you, the people that you worked with,
just for the experience of self knowing how rare it was,
and justifiably taking And this is something that you and
Doug will agree on, is that you said, sweet child,

(02:06:10):
of mind, give me money for a video, and that
really saved that band when they were ready to drop
them right when Welcome wasn't hitting it did you saved
that band. So there are so many things in history that.

Speaker 1 (02:06:23):
Well, the whole thing about Sweet Child is read it
in the book because that story is in the book.
That okay, but it's it's comedy in it. The way
the whole thing transpired, and the various people involved, and
their various motives and their various actions. The extraordinary thing

(02:06:48):
about Sweet Child is we were given half the budget
that we got for Jungle, and I had to do
Jungle back to back with a great white video so
as I could get the storyboard done. And then they
gave us half.

Speaker 4 (02:07:08):
We didn't have enough to do Jungle, and then they
gave us half, and out of half the budget for
a low end video, he ended up with two.

Speaker 1 (02:07:24):
But read about it in the book.

Speaker 2 (02:07:26):
I will alan again, thank you so much. So that
does it for episode five hundred of appetite for this stortion.
When will we see the next one? In the words
of Axel Rose concerning Chinese democracy, I don't know as
soon as the word, but you'll see.

Speaker 1 (02:07:40):
It thanks to the lamass security. I'm going home,

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Alan Niven: Sound N' Fury | Ep. 500

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Alan Niven: Sound N' Fury | Ep. 500