November 20, 2024 • 24 mins
"Heartbreak Is the National Anthem: How Taylor Swift Reinvented Pop Music" is the new book from veteran Rolling Stone writer, Rob Sheffield. We dare to compare the Taylor Swift phenomenon with Guns N' Roses. You may be surprised.
More info:
https://www.instagram.com/robbiesheff
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OUR WEBSITE: www.afdpod.com
More info:
https://www.instagram.com/robbiesheff
https://www.harpercollins.com/products/heartbreak-is-the-national-anthem-rob-sheffield
OUR WEBSITE: www.afdpod.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
This is Appetite for Distortion. Welcome to the podcast Appetite
(00:32):
four Distortion, Episode number four hundred and eighty two. My
name is Brando, coming up the Taylor Swift episode of
Appetite for Distortions. Did I jump the shark? No, I'm
just expanding that six degrees of gn R Bacon and
there is no one better to discuss it with than
(00:53):
Rob Sheffield of Rolling Stone, the new author of the
author of a new book, I should phrase it, Heartbreak
is the national anthem. How Taylor Swift reinvented pop music.
And we're going to compare Taylor with Axel, Taylor with Izzy.
Believe it or not, these are comparisons that we can
make her double album with user Illusion. I mean, there's
(01:15):
a lot of I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy, he
keeps saying to convince himself that he's not. But I
wanted to present and set up the interview properly because
if you're familiar with me in the podcast, sometimes I
do these radio tours that Rob is currently on right now,
going from station to station across the US promoting his book,
(01:37):
and I'm here playing the old Lily Tomlin character, connecting
him via zoom via phone, and I just want to
show you the last minute or so from the previous
station before my time, because I kind of got an
unsolicited setup, which I really appreciate. So with his permission,
(01:57):
Sean Dillon out of a ko n E at Olympic Texas,
take it.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Away, Brandon, I discovered your your incredible pod and it rocks.
So we will talk later.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh, thank you for that. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
That is you do.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
You do great work, my friend.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Oh thank you. I'm actually going to interview Rob Sheffield
for that right now. So you give me a perfect segue.
I'm a to a producer and a podcast host.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Look at that. I love that.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I'm a radio guy and a top podcast So we
do we do? We do similar things, right?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Thank you so much, Thanks Jeb.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
That was the perfect lead in. Actually, Rob, so yeah,
as I I mean, you don't need to turn your
camera on, you can leave yours off so you can
see me and you can see all the guns and
roses stuff. Oh also pictures of cats to my son,
but guns and roads of stuff behind me. I've been
working for iHeart from near ten years radio twenty but
this guns of roses podcast came out of a passion
(02:57):
for me. I've been lucky enough to interview some really
cool people, and when I saw your name on there,
somebody who I've grown up with. You know, essentially I'm
forty one. I don't know if that makes you feel
older or whatever, but nineteen ninety seven, when you kind
of started your career, that was like the kind of
I don't know, the core of where I started my
(03:18):
love of music. So the fact that here we're here
today to talk about Taylor Swift and may surprise some
of my listeners, heartbreak is the national anthem how Taylor
Swift reinvented pop music. But I'm going to make connections
and I think you will appreciate it between Taylor and
Axel and Taylor and Guns and Roses. Because you go
way back. You were in line right for a usual illusion.
(03:41):
You were waiting there at midnight and Teller Records.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yes September twenty six, I think nineteen ninety one, and
that was the first time that a record going on
sale at midnight was this big thing that people actually
waited in line for. I was in Charlottesville, Virginia. I
was waiting at Plan nine Records, in Charlottesville, Oh okay,
(04:08):
and there was a line that was stretching all around
the block. It was really fun. It was a really
exciting sort of activity, just because if you loved the
music and you loved the band and you're excited for
this record, it was a thing where you could just
(04:28):
participate in the whole event just by being with all
these other people who loved Guns N' Roses and so
we were all getting the album at the same time
and felt super excited about that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So how does that compare? And it's just the way
I'm glad this opportunity presented itself, not just to get
to talk to you, but honestly to talk about Taylor Swift,
because I'm not who you may expect. You're gonna have
different interviews today focusing on that. But when you know
the Tortured Poets Department, right when that came out, and
that's a double album, how does that compare to the assignment?
(05:00):
Now you've lived through both of these monumental double records.
I can't remember the last double album prior to Tailor's
then Matter like Genr's, So can you compare that experience
at all? Because you're not You're waiting online, you're not
in line, if that makes sense or vice versa.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
One thing, one thing jen xers do not miss about
the old days is how we used to have to
wait in line for concert tickets, and waiting in line
for albums was really a new thing. It wasn't until
the nineties that when soundscam came in that people got
so into release dates. But the experience this was now
worth waiting for because there was only one Guns in Roses,
(05:43):
and we knew it was epic. We knew it was
you know, use your a lesion. I and to, like
you said, a complicated double album. But Taylor and Actual
of so many similarities that I'm sure we will get into,
but one of the key ones is that. And just
to set up these gigantic, epic albums that they made
(06:04):
is that they were complicated artists who people expected to
be simple just because of who they were, where they
came from, what they looked like, how they dressed. People
very much wanted to dismiss Accelent when it came on
as just a you know, just just a very like
standard sunset strip sort of hair metal guy. That was
(06:25):
the term that that people used in those days. And
still used. But people really wanted to dismiss Guns and
Roses on that level, just like they wanted to dismiss Taylor.
So for them to make these complex double albums is
a case of them exceeding expectations, as they've done throughout
their career.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
See, I knew I wasn't crazy for thinking that, because
you're right, there are all these expectations forced upon them
by the media, and they're saying, no, we're going to
do what we want. And the fact that they could
put out these uh, just epic pieces of music to
that the fans are just still devouring. And I was
(07:05):
listening to the last interview you just did prior to this,
and you're talking about Easter eggs and you know, just
little things like that that Axel would do. Taylor did,
of course, going way back to the Beatles. But I
want to I always use the six degrees we're into it,
the six degrees of gn R Bacon. But one that
I want to give a shout out to a fellow
author that you I'm sure you know, Ben Apatov, who's
(07:27):
written a lot of He's written his most recent book
about body Count, and he said he was reading he's
currently reading your book and he sent me this section
of it that there's a velvet revolver reference in the
Taylor's book. So and that has to do with Taylor
Swift's dad. So I guess how did that? And that's
(07:49):
how she was found by a Big Machine Record which
is named after velvet. How does that story go?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah? That that was just what where her record label
got her name, Big Machine Records, who are a startup? Okay,
it was a publicist from Nashville who was starting his label,
Scott Proshetta and signed her early on. Her dad bought
a three percent stake in the label. That's the connection
with your dad. But the label took its name from
that velvet on Velvet song, And it was really funny
(08:18):
because it was really a brash sort of thing to
call your record label big Machine when they haven't put
out an album yet. But I just love that there's
that you know, that guns and roses connection right there.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Oh yeah, that's that's what I I thrive off. But
I want to focus what you're here on and for
me to be educated, and that is about Taylor Swift
because you can't deny it. I mean, in my world
Genear came back and their reunion was like the fourth
most success successful you tour ever. But Taylor Swift and yeah,
(08:50):
oh for sure. I've seen a few of them as
as you have. But Taylor Swift almost seemingly without trying.
Could you know easily? You know, easily beat that you
know to the point where she's which I think is
one of the kindest things any artist has ever done.
Where she gave what was one hundred thousand dollars to
each one of her drivers. I mean that just shows
(09:11):
a lot. So can you talk about how she came
from this very you know, a country singer. I remember
when I was kind of I was working at a
cluster where she was only on country radio, to being
this massive global star that no matter what genre of
music you'd like, you know who she is and you
have to respect her. I I you known, anyone else
(09:35):
is just a hater that's gonna hate hate hate. I'm
sorry I had to do that once for someone who's
seen so many musicians grow over your career. How does
Taylor's compared to that? Is anyone even comparable to that?
I know we mentioned accent, it's anyone compared to where
they started too, and she's not even close to being finished.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
No, it's so weird. She's about to turn thirty five.
She is that child. He is a child. I think
with Taylor it was something where she showed up. She
was so ambitious from the get go. She was so
obsessed with songwriting and obsessed with finding new ways to
(10:18):
make songwriting right for the type of self expression that
she wanted to do, and that she was speaking for
a type of fan who didn't get a lot of
respect from the industry, much like with Guns and Roses.
When Guns and Roses came out, the music industry was
very interested in getting money from these kids, not so
(10:38):
respectful of them or taking them seriously, and definitely saw
GNR as a band that they were happy to make
money from, but not a style of music that they respected,
not an audience that they respected. And it's the same
with Taylor Swift that she was a teenage girl with
the guitar writing her own songs at a time when
that was not done in the pop scene or the
(11:01):
country music scene, and it was seen almost as a
novelty almost like that's her angle. What a concept, This
teenage girl can actually write her own songs, and there
was still a lot of condescension, a lot of skepticism
about whether she was even writing the songs which we
still see today incredibly, and she had to fight to
prove that this could be done, that she could actually
(11:24):
have success writing her own songs as a young woman
with the guitar. And of course this was the time
when guitar was supposed to be on the way out
in the late two thousands. It was very customary. All
pop music experts knew that music with guitars was old
fashioned and obsolete, and it was going away and never
coming back. And it was also it was full of
(11:46):
evil cultural signifiers. So it was something that was absolutely
ripe to be dismissed and was dismissed. But she proved
that you could not only get away with it, that
you could become the biggest star in theis doing that.
And I feel like at pop music in twenty twenty
four with Sabrina Carpenter and Chaperone and bill Y Eilish
and Olivia Brodrige, Gracie Abrams, all those stars, you see
(12:11):
that this is what pop music is now. Taylor has
created a world of Taylor Swift's.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
That's a really good point and something I've noticed, but
I guess I really haven't connected that where the influence
that Taylor has had on the guitar. You know, I
follow a lot of rock sites, and yeah, there are
people who make fun of Taylor Swift about playing the guitar.
But I think you really need to take a step
back because she's not trying to be Eddie van Hanlin
(12:38):
up there. She's not trying to be bucket headed up there.
She is influencing other guitar driven pop stars. You know,
is she somebody do you credit her for that? Because
I mean Billie Eilish, I think it was a big
deal when she started playing acoustic recently on this tour
like that she started to play guitar that she's learning
is that what is that show? Is just show that
(13:01):
pop is the guitar. The certain fads are cyclical or
that just rock and roll, no matter what anybody says,
is never gonna die. It's always going to be there.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
It's amazing rock and roll is always going to be there.
There's something about just the fact that you know, Sabrita
Carpenter gets up on stage, she's you know, she's one
of the biggest artists of the year. She's got so
many of the year's biggest hits. She just goes up
there with her acoustic guitar and she's like, Yeah, this
is the machine I write songs on, play songs on
(13:32):
that self contained artist in the sense that Bob Dylan was,
and that that is extremely appealing to people. And it
was very much Taylor who rescued that. I mentioned this
in the book. But there was a big worry in
the guitar industry in the late two thousand's early twenty
teens that the guitar was dead, sales were down, and
(13:53):
there was this gnashing of teeth. This article in the
Washington Post a very famous when you probably remember the
death of the electric guitar, and I mentioned it in
the book. I actually have a whole chapter about it
because it's funny. They're talking about the fact that you
know that rock music is obsolete and it's only for
old people, and it's withering away, and music with guitars
(14:14):
is on the way out, and that you know, they
have people from the big guitar companies talking about how
sales are down, and then there's this really strange detail
towards the end of the article where the guy says,
by the way, something strange started to happen. Around twenty ten.
Acoustic guitars started to sell more than ever. They were
(14:36):
selling more than electric guitars, and the people who are
buying them were girls, and that at guitar academies that
suddenly like there were ten times as many girls playing
guitar as there were before. And it was funny to
see that the guitar industry was not really psyched about
the Taylor Swift impact on their industry and that they
(14:56):
they said, basically, if this is the end, if you
know young girls are the ones buying the guitars, then
clearly the guitar is dead. And it's funny that, you know,
you look at pop music at twenty twenty four, absolutely
nobody is saying the guitar is dead. The guitar is
such a huge part of what a singer songwriter does,
and you look at like the big hits of twenty
twenty four, and so much that has to do with
(15:18):
Taylor Swift and the way she would just stand up
there with a guitar and say, I'm Taylor, I write
songs about my feelings I use this guitar to write
these songs about my feelings. And you know, it's like
the old joke about the Velvet Underground that everybody who
bought the album went out and started their own band,
and it's that's definitely true with Taylor Swift, that the
music with guitars is so huge largely because of her.
(15:41):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Obviously, we focus on so much how Slash impact the guitar,
the guitar and being, you know, just so you know
what his shape, his shadow. He's so identifiable, and you
really could say Taylor Swift. I don't want to say
Taylor Swift is the Slash of this generation, but as
far as but as far as influence, maybe yeah. You
(16:05):
know she's actually right, is he? That's right?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
She's right. She's a gijuound. She doesn't shred, she doesn't solo,
nothing like that, but she she carries the song. She's
you know, she uses the guitar to write the songs
but also to play live and made it a big
part of her visual brand. The way Slashed it, you know,
the way Slash Slash made people want to play guitar
(16:28):
even before they hurt him. Because nobody in history ever
looked so cool posing with the guitar since Jimi Hendricks.
You just have slash up there and you know whether
he's got the hat on or a shirt on or
off or whatever. He slash made it look so incredibly
fun to play a guitar. And Taylor was the same thing.
She had her signature rhinestone studded model that she would post.
(16:51):
She would wear a top hat sometimes, but there would
be a like slash. She understood the visual iconography of
the guitar made that a huge part of her visual brand.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Oh, I love that. I knew you were the right
guy to talk to you about this. You know, Izzy,
you know exactly what I'm talking about. I have you
for a few more minutes before we move on to
the next station. I don't want to be live because
I still have a job to do. Okay, I'll give
you a head zop. We're speaking with Paul from Detroit.
I want to show my listeners how I can multitask
as well. But I'll ask you a couple quick things here.
(17:25):
What's something you learned about Taylor that we may not
expect from that book because it's a different world now
where they put so much out on social media. You
feel you know everything, but you go in and do
your research. What's something that you learned that you were
surprised by?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
She listens to everything. She listens to everything, She takes
ideas from everything, she takes inspiration from everything. She is
absolutely obsessed with pop music and she will listen to everything.
I found this great interview from two thousand and eight actually,
where the interviewer says, you know, so what part of
music are you still catching up on it? You have
(17:58):
to learn about it? And she says hair metal, and
she says that's what all the guys in my band
listen to. So she's like, I'm trying to appreciate kiss
right now. But it's funny that, you know, you could
see that, you could see that influence everywhere. My personal
tailor GNR theory is that her favorite is used. Your
illusion definitely seems to be like hers along with GNR lives. Also,
(18:22):
the thing of just doing this random nobody expects it,
stylistic detour kind of thing right after your blockbuster hit
album is a very tailor move. But I think of
a song that's nowhere near as famous as it should
be on usier Illusion Breakdown, which is one of my
very favorite songs. That is such a tailor song in
so many ways. The way it tells such a long story,
(18:43):
the way it has banan, the way it has different
quotes from different sources, you know, the whole like you know,
Vanishing Point, last American hero thing, which is a very
tailored thing to do. I think Breakdown is the most
underrated Guns and Roses song, which she didn't ask for,
but I I'm obsessed with that song, and to me,
that is the most Swiftian Guns n' Roses song.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Oh I love that and You're gonna make a lot
of because when I ask underrated gn R songs, that's
the one that comes up the most from my from
my social media's Breakdown because yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Mean crazy, that song is just the absolute best.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Do you do you ever? Do you have a favorite?
You've gotten a chance to interview some of the guys
over the years, right now, never you never got it.
Yeah you've tried, if you tried to interview because I mean,
obviously Slash have been featuring Rolling Stone gen R famously,
but but your focus, I know you're You're Beatles guy.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
The one the one I've interviewed is Steven Adler? Okay,
and uh yeah. I've talked to him a few times.
Met him at at the Oaklaw at Rocklahoma Festival two
thousand and seven phenomenal festival where Adler's Appetite was playing,
and got some great time with Steven Adler there.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Okay, cool, Well, you were.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Showing pictures of his pug. You'd be so proud of
his pug.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Well, as we wrap up here, I want to put
out into the universe for you to land an easy
interview because I appreciate you shotting him out for this
and also for an Axel Tailor collab. I mean he's
he's worked with Pink, He's Carrie Underwood. I mean that
would I would break the internet. As the kids say,
Axel on tail I.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Think that would be a fantastic du it. Their voices
are so similar. They both have that hungry sort of
yowl in their voice. I would love to hear her
singing a gn R song and I would love to
hear him singing a swift song Row me, Oh Save May.
That would be phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Rob Schaffield, thank you so much and stand by for
more interviews, not about guns and Roses though more Taylor.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Thank you Brandon Brandon your podcast. I discovered it when
you posted about it a couple of weeks ago. Were
you tagging me out it? Did? I love this podcast.
It's totally new to me and I'm catching up on
the episodes that I missed, but I absolutely love Appetite
for Distortion. It's phenomenon.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Thank you. That means a lot. I'm gonna have to
kind of calm my fanboy because again I've been reading
and watching my entire life. So thank you, and let's
get on the next station. Kind man, I say that
a lot for somebody my interviews, and then I say
that a lot. But Rob was really kind. He said,
if I needed more time or time to discuss this
(21:33):
in depth conversation, we're picking apart, comparing Taylor Swift and
Guns and Roses. How can you do that? Well we
did it, so perhaps we'll get Rob Sheffield on the
podcast again. And just a really awesome guy that you
could talk about so much music with. And I'm honored
to have him on the podcast, and just honored because
(21:55):
he told me off air that the episode that he
listened to once I tagged them when I was promoting
this episode that the one he listened to was David Navarro,
and he's like, that was a really good interview, thank
you for doing it. And to hear that from somebody
like Rob meant the world. It really does mean the
world to me. And I don't know if you could
(22:16):
tell kind of in real time, when both Sean at
the beginning and Rob at the end giving me compliments,
I don't take compliments. Well, it's something that I'm working
on and therapy still, and you know, I want to
say this as mental health as always the secondary theme
the guns and roses here. You know, I still have
a relationship with my therapist, but I haven't seen her
(22:40):
as frequently as I was for most of my life
up until Baby Brownstone Harrison. But in the last few months,
I've seen her a handful of times. But I said
to myself the other day, I need help. I'm overwhelmed
by a lot of things. I need to talk. And
she was great, and I even went through my job
about a lot of insurance companies will specifically help you
(23:03):
out with mental health. Now now that the stigma is
kind of being broken, so I just don't want to
let you know even though I'm in a really great
place in my life now with getting an interview Rob
Sheffield and all these just and you get to talk
to you on a daily basis, and you know, a
wife and kid, I can still get overwhelmed. So I
just thought it was important to let you know that
I still need help. We all need help, and it's
(23:26):
okay to talk to somebody, So I digress. Next episode
going to be not as serious. It's going to be
a lot of fun. We got to talk to the
guy who knows who jumped into the cake in the
November Rain video. It's brought up every year at this time,
November Rain. This is our mouth, right gunners, And we
(23:47):
dissect the November Rain video billions of views, but no
one really seems to know for sure. It's not a
household name of who jumped into the cake because it's
not a household. So we're gonna do a deep dive
into the story. Okay, next episode and perhaps get closer
(24:07):
to maybe having the cake jumper on the show, if
he's alive. I don't want to say it like that,
but you never know. Only Stephanie Seymour died in that video.
You never know. You don't know what happened with the
cake jumper after that, what was the aftermath? You can
make a Netflix series out of it. But I digress again,
(24:28):
So lots to come. I've already thinking about episode five hundred.
I can't even believe it. But when's the next episode?
In the words of Axo Rose concerning Chinese democracy, I
don't know as soon as the word, but you'll see.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
It thanks to the lame mass security. I'm going home.
You know.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
This is Appetite for Distortion. Welcome to the podcast Appetite
(00:32):
four Distortion, Episode number four hundred and eighty two. My
name is Brando, coming up the Taylor Swift episode of
Appetite for Distortions. Did I jump the shark? No, I'm
just expanding that six degrees of gn R Bacon and
there is no one better to discuss it with than
(00:53):
Rob Sheffield of Rolling Stone, the new author of the
author of a new book, I should phrase it, Heartbreak
is the national anthem. How Taylor Swift reinvented pop music.
And we're going to compare Taylor with Axel, Taylor with Izzy.
Believe it or not, these are comparisons that we can
make her double album with user Illusion. I mean, there's
(01:15):
a lot of I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy, he
keeps saying to convince himself that he's not. But I
wanted to present and set up the interview properly because
if you're familiar with me in the podcast, sometimes I
do these radio tours that Rob is currently on right now,
going from station to station across the US promoting his book,
(01:37):
and I'm here playing the old Lily Tomlin character, connecting
him via zoom via phone, and I just want to
show you the last minute or so from the previous
station before my time, because I kind of got an
unsolicited setup, which I really appreciate. So with his permission,
(01:57):
Sean Dillon out of a ko n E at Olympic Texas,
take it.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Away, Brandon, I discovered your your incredible pod and it rocks.
So we will talk later.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh, thank you for that. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
That is you do.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
You do great work, my friend.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Oh thank you. I'm actually going to interview Rob Sheffield
for that right now. So you give me a perfect segue.
I'm a to a producer and a podcast host.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Look at that. I love that.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I'm a radio guy and a top podcast So we
do we do? We do similar things, right?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Thank you so much, Thanks Jeb.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
That was the perfect lead in. Actually, Rob, so yeah,
as I I mean, you don't need to turn your
camera on, you can leave yours off so you can
see me and you can see all the guns and
roses stuff. Oh also pictures of cats to my son,
but guns and roads of stuff behind me. I've been
working for iHeart from near ten years radio twenty but
this guns of roses podcast came out of a passion
(02:57):
for me. I've been lucky enough to interview some really
cool people, and when I saw your name on there,
somebody who I've grown up with. You know, essentially I'm
forty one. I don't know if that makes you feel
older or whatever, but nineteen ninety seven, when you kind
of started your career, that was like the kind of
I don't know, the core of where I started my
(03:18):
love of music. So the fact that here we're here
today to talk about Taylor Swift and may surprise some
of my listeners, heartbreak is the national anthem how Taylor
Swift reinvented pop music. But I'm going to make connections
and I think you will appreciate it between Taylor and
Axel and Taylor and Guns and Roses. Because you go
way back. You were in line right for a usual illusion.
(03:41):
You were waiting there at midnight and Teller Records.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yes September twenty six, I think nineteen ninety one, and
that was the first time that a record going on
sale at midnight was this big thing that people actually
waited in line for. I was in Charlottesville, Virginia. I
was waiting at Plan nine Records, in Charlottesville, Oh okay,
(04:08):
and there was a line that was stretching all around
the block. It was really fun. It was a really
exciting sort of activity, just because if you loved the
music and you loved the band and you're excited for
this record, it was a thing where you could just
(04:28):
participate in the whole event just by being with all
these other people who loved Guns N' Roses and so
we were all getting the album at the same time
and felt super excited about that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So how does that compare? And it's just the way
I'm glad this opportunity presented itself, not just to get
to talk to you, but honestly to talk about Taylor Swift,
because I'm not who you may expect. You're gonna have
different interviews today focusing on that. But when you know
the Tortured Poets Department, right when that came out, and
that's a double album, how does that compare to the assignment?
(05:00):
Now you've lived through both of these monumental double records.
I can't remember the last double album prior to Tailor's
then Matter like Genr's, So can you compare that experience
at all? Because you're not You're waiting online, you're not
in line, if that makes sense or vice versa.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
One thing, one thing jen xers do not miss about
the old days is how we used to have to
wait in line for concert tickets, and waiting in line
for albums was really a new thing. It wasn't until
the nineties that when soundscam came in that people got
so into release dates. But the experience this was now
worth waiting for because there was only one Guns in Roses,
(05:43):
and we knew it was epic. We knew it was
you know, use your a lesion. I and to, like
you said, a complicated double album. But Taylor and Actual
of so many similarities that I'm sure we will get into,
but one of the key ones is that. And just
to set up these gigantic, epic albums that they made
(06:04):
is that they were complicated artists who people expected to
be simple just because of who they were, where they
came from, what they looked like, how they dressed. People
very much wanted to dismiss Accelent when it came on
as just a you know, just just a very like
standard sunset strip sort of hair metal guy. That was
(06:25):
the term that that people used in those days. And
still used. But people really wanted to dismiss Guns and
Roses on that level, just like they wanted to dismiss Taylor.
So for them to make these complex double albums is
a case of them exceeding expectations, as they've done throughout
their career.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
See, I knew I wasn't crazy for thinking that, because
you're right, there are all these expectations forced upon them
by the media, and they're saying, no, we're going to
do what we want. And the fact that they could
put out these uh, just epic pieces of music to
that the fans are just still devouring. And I was
(07:05):
listening to the last interview you just did prior to this,
and you're talking about Easter eggs and you know, just
little things like that that Axel would do. Taylor did,
of course, going way back to the Beatles. But I
want to I always use the six degrees we're into it,
the six degrees of gn R Bacon. But one that
I want to give a shout out to a fellow
author that you I'm sure you know, Ben Apatov, who's
(07:27):
written a lot of He's written his most recent book
about body Count, and he said he was reading he's
currently reading your book and he sent me this section
of it that there's a velvet revolver reference in the
Taylor's book. So and that has to do with Taylor
Swift's dad. So I guess how did that? And that's
(07:49):
how she was found by a Big Machine Record which
is named after velvet. How does that story go?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah? That that was just what where her record label
got her name, Big Machine Records, who are a startup? Okay,
it was a publicist from Nashville who was starting his label,
Scott Proshetta and signed her early on. Her dad bought
a three percent stake in the label. That's the connection
with your dad. But the label took its name from
that velvet on Velvet song, And it was really funny
(08:18):
because it was really a brash sort of thing to
call your record label big Machine when they haven't put
out an album yet. But I just love that there's
that you know, that guns and roses connection right there.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Oh yeah, that's that's what I I thrive off. But
I want to focus what you're here on and for
me to be educated, and that is about Taylor Swift
because you can't deny it. I mean, in my world
Genear came back and their reunion was like the fourth
most success successful you tour ever. But Taylor Swift and yeah,
(08:50):
oh for sure. I've seen a few of them as
as you have. But Taylor Swift almost seemingly without trying.
Could you know easily? You know, easily beat that you
know to the point where she's which I think is
one of the kindest things any artist has ever done.
Where she gave what was one hundred thousand dollars to
each one of her drivers. I mean that just shows
(09:11):
a lot. So can you talk about how she came
from this very you know, a country singer. I remember
when I was kind of I was working at a
cluster where she was only on country radio, to being
this massive global star that no matter what genre of
music you'd like, you know who she is and you
have to respect her. I I you known, anyone else
(09:35):
is just a hater that's gonna hate hate hate. I'm
sorry I had to do that once for someone who's
seen so many musicians grow over your career. How does
Taylor's compared to that? Is anyone even comparable to that?
I know we mentioned accent, it's anyone compared to where
they started too, and she's not even close to being finished.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
No, it's so weird. She's about to turn thirty five.
She is that child. He is a child. I think
with Taylor it was something where she showed up. She
was so ambitious from the get go. She was so
obsessed with songwriting and obsessed with finding new ways to
(10:18):
make songwriting right for the type of self expression that
she wanted to do, and that she was speaking for
a type of fan who didn't get a lot of
respect from the industry, much like with Guns and Roses.
When Guns and Roses came out, the music industry was
very interested in getting money from these kids, not so
(10:38):
respectful of them or taking them seriously, and definitely saw
GNR as a band that they were happy to make
money from, but not a style of music that they respected,
not an audience that they respected. And it's the same
with Taylor Swift that she was a teenage girl with
the guitar writing her own songs at a time when
that was not done in the pop scene or the
(11:01):
country music scene, and it was seen almost as a
novelty almost like that's her angle. What a concept, This
teenage girl can actually write her own songs, and there
was still a lot of condescension, a lot of skepticism
about whether she was even writing the songs which we
still see today incredibly, and she had to fight to
prove that this could be done, that she could actually
(11:24):
have success writing her own songs as a young woman
with the guitar. And of course this was the time
when guitar was supposed to be on the way out
in the late two thousands. It was very customary. All
pop music experts knew that music with guitars was old
fashioned and obsolete, and it was going away and never
coming back. And it was also it was full of
(11:46):
evil cultural signifiers. So it was something that was absolutely
ripe to be dismissed and was dismissed. But she proved
that you could not only get away with it, that
you could become the biggest star in theis doing that.
And I feel like at pop music in twenty twenty
four with Sabrina Carpenter and Chaperone and bill Y Eilish
and Olivia Brodrige, Gracie Abrams, all those stars, you see
(12:11):
that this is what pop music is now. Taylor has
created a world of Taylor Swift's.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
That's a really good point and something I've noticed, but
I guess I really haven't connected that where the influence
that Taylor has had on the guitar. You know, I
follow a lot of rock sites, and yeah, there are
people who make fun of Taylor Swift about playing the guitar.
But I think you really need to take a step
back because she's not trying to be Eddie van Hanlin
(12:38):
up there. She's not trying to be bucket headed up there.
She is influencing other guitar driven pop stars. You know,
is she somebody do you credit her for that? Because
I mean Billie Eilish, I think it was a big
deal when she started playing acoustic recently on this tour
like that she started to play guitar that she's learning
is that what is that show? Is just show that
(13:01):
pop is the guitar. The certain fads are cyclical or
that just rock and roll, no matter what anybody says,
is never gonna die. It's always going to be there.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
It's amazing rock and roll is always going to be there.
There's something about just the fact that you know, Sabrita
Carpenter gets up on stage, she's you know, she's one
of the biggest artists of the year. She's got so
many of the year's biggest hits. She just goes up
there with her acoustic guitar and she's like, Yeah, this
is the machine I write songs on, play songs on
(13:32):
that self contained artist in the sense that Bob Dylan was,
and that that is extremely appealing to people. And it
was very much Taylor who rescued that. I mentioned this
in the book. But there was a big worry in
the guitar industry in the late two thousand's early twenty
teens that the guitar was dead, sales were down, and
(13:53):
there was this gnashing of teeth. This article in the
Washington Post a very famous when you probably remember the
death of the electric guitar, and I mentioned it in
the book. I actually have a whole chapter about it
because it's funny. They're talking about the fact that you
know that rock music is obsolete and it's only for
old people, and it's withering away, and music with guitars
(14:14):
is on the way out, and that you know, they
have people from the big guitar companies talking about how
sales are down, and then there's this really strange detail
towards the end of the article where the guy says,
by the way, something strange started to happen. Around twenty ten.
Acoustic guitars started to sell more than ever. They were
(14:36):
selling more than electric guitars, and the people who are
buying them were girls, and that at guitar academies that
suddenly like there were ten times as many girls playing
guitar as there were before. And it was funny to
see that the guitar industry was not really psyched about
the Taylor Swift impact on their industry and that they
(14:56):
they said, basically, if this is the end, if you
know young girls are the ones buying the guitars, then
clearly the guitar is dead. And it's funny that, you know,
you look at pop music at twenty twenty four, absolutely
nobody is saying the guitar is dead. The guitar is
such a huge part of what a singer songwriter does,
and you look at like the big hits of twenty
twenty four, and so much that has to do with
(15:18):
Taylor Swift and the way she would just stand up
there with a guitar and say, I'm Taylor, I write
songs about my feelings I use this guitar to write
these songs about my feelings. And you know, it's like
the old joke about the Velvet Underground that everybody who
bought the album went out and started their own band,
and it's that's definitely true with Taylor Swift, that the
music with guitars is so huge largely because of her.
(15:41):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Obviously, we focus on so much how Slash impact the guitar,
the guitar and being, you know, just so you know
what his shape, his shadow. He's so identifiable, and you
really could say Taylor Swift. I don't want to say
Taylor Swift is the Slash of this generation, but as
far as but as far as influence, maybe yeah. You
(16:05):
know she's actually right, is he? That's right?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
She's right. She's a gijuound. She doesn't shred, she doesn't solo,
nothing like that, but she she carries the song. She's
you know, she uses the guitar to write the songs
but also to play live and made it a big
part of her visual brand. The way Slashed it, you know,
the way Slash Slash made people want to play guitar
(16:28):
even before they hurt him. Because nobody in history ever
looked so cool posing with the guitar since Jimi Hendricks.
You just have slash up there and you know whether
he's got the hat on or a shirt on or
off or whatever. He slash made it look so incredibly
fun to play a guitar. And Taylor was the same thing.
She had her signature rhinestone studded model that she would post.
(16:51):
She would wear a top hat sometimes, but there would
be a like slash. She understood the visual iconography of
the guitar made that a huge part of her visual brand.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Oh, I love that. I knew you were the right
guy to talk to you about this. You know, Izzy,
you know exactly what I'm talking about. I have you
for a few more minutes before we move on to
the next station. I don't want to be live because
I still have a job to do. Okay, I'll give
you a head zop. We're speaking with Paul from Detroit.
I want to show my listeners how I can multitask
as well. But I'll ask you a couple quick things here.
(17:25):
What's something you learned about Taylor that we may not
expect from that book because it's a different world now
where they put so much out on social media. You
feel you know everything, but you go in and do
your research. What's something that you learned that you were
surprised by?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
She listens to everything. She listens to everything, She takes
ideas from everything, she takes inspiration from everything. She is
absolutely obsessed with pop music and she will listen to everything.
I found this great interview from two thousand and eight actually,
where the interviewer says, you know, so what part of
music are you still catching up on it? You have
(17:58):
to learn about it? And she says hair metal, and
she says that's what all the guys in my band
listen to. So she's like, I'm trying to appreciate kiss
right now. But it's funny that, you know, you could
see that, you could see that influence everywhere. My personal
tailor GNR theory is that her favorite is used. Your
illusion definitely seems to be like hers along with GNR lives. Also,
(18:22):
the thing of just doing this random nobody expects it,
stylistic detour kind of thing right after your blockbuster hit
album is a very tailor move. But I think of
a song that's nowhere near as famous as it should
be on usier Illusion Breakdown, which is one of my
very favorite songs. That is such a tailor song in
so many ways. The way it tells such a long story,
(18:43):
the way it has banan, the way it has different
quotes from different sources, you know, the whole like you know,
Vanishing Point, last American hero thing, which is a very
tailored thing to do. I think Breakdown is the most
underrated Guns and Roses song, which she didn't ask for,
but I I'm obsessed with that song, and to me,
that is the most Swiftian Guns n' Roses song.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Oh I love that and You're gonna make a lot
of because when I ask underrated gn R songs, that's
the one that comes up the most from my from
my social media's Breakdown because yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Mean crazy, that song is just the absolute best.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Do you do you ever? Do you have a favorite?
You've gotten a chance to interview some of the guys
over the years, right now, never you never got it.
Yeah you've tried, if you tried to interview because I mean,
obviously Slash have been featuring Rolling Stone gen R famously,
but but your focus, I know you're You're Beatles guy.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
The one the one I've interviewed is Steven Adler? Okay,
and uh yeah. I've talked to him a few times.
Met him at at the Oaklaw at Rocklahoma Festival two
thousand and seven phenomenal festival where Adler's Appetite was playing,
and got some great time with Steven Adler there.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Okay, cool, Well, you were.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Showing pictures of his pug. You'd be so proud of
his pug.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Well, as we wrap up here, I want to put
out into the universe for you to land an easy
interview because I appreciate you shotting him out for this
and also for an Axel Tailor collab. I mean he's
he's worked with Pink, He's Carrie Underwood. I mean that
would I would break the internet. As the kids say,
Axel on tail I.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Think that would be a fantastic du it. Their voices
are so similar. They both have that hungry sort of
yowl in their voice. I would love to hear her
singing a gn R song and I would love to
hear him singing a swift song Row me, Oh Save May.
That would be phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Rob Schaffield, thank you so much and stand by for
more interviews, not about guns and Roses though more Taylor.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Thank you Brandon Brandon your podcast. I discovered it when
you posted about it a couple of weeks ago. Were
you tagging me out it? Did? I love this podcast.
It's totally new to me and I'm catching up on
the episodes that I missed, but I absolutely love Appetite
for Distortion. It's phenomenon.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Thank you. That means a lot. I'm gonna have to
kind of calm my fanboy because again I've been reading
and watching my entire life. So thank you, and let's
get on the next station. Kind man, I say that
a lot for somebody my interviews, and then I say
that a lot. But Rob was really kind. He said,
if I needed more time or time to discuss this
(21:33):
in depth conversation, we're picking apart, comparing Taylor Swift and
Guns and Roses. How can you do that? Well we
did it, so perhaps we'll get Rob Sheffield on the
podcast again. And just a really awesome guy that you
could talk about so much music with. And I'm honored
to have him on the podcast, and just honored because
(21:55):
he told me off air that the episode that he
listened to once I tagged them when I was promoting
this episode that the one he listened to was David Navarro,
and he's like, that was a really good interview, thank
you for doing it. And to hear that from somebody
like Rob meant the world. It really does mean the
world to me. And I don't know if you could
(22:16):
tell kind of in real time, when both Sean at
the beginning and Rob at the end giving me compliments,
I don't take compliments. Well, it's something that I'm working
on and therapy still, and you know, I want to
say this as mental health as always the secondary theme
the guns and roses here. You know, I still have
a relationship with my therapist, but I haven't seen her
(22:40):
as frequently as I was for most of my life
up until Baby Brownstone Harrison. But in the last few months,
I've seen her a handful of times. But I said
to myself the other day, I need help. I'm overwhelmed
by a lot of things. I need to talk. And
she was great, and I even went through my job
about a lot of insurance companies will specifically help you
(23:03):
out with mental health. Now now that the stigma is
kind of being broken, so I just don't want to
let you know even though I'm in a really great
place in my life now with getting an interview Rob
Sheffield and all these just and you get to talk
to you on a daily basis, and you know, a
wife and kid, I can still get overwhelmed. So I
just thought it was important to let you know that
I still need help. We all need help, and it's
(23:26):
okay to talk to somebody, So I digress. Next episode
going to be not as serious. It's going to be
a lot of fun. We got to talk to the
guy who knows who jumped into the cake in the
November Rain video. It's brought up every year at this time,
November Rain. This is our mouth, right gunners, And we
(23:47):
dissect the November Rain video billions of views, but no
one really seems to know for sure. It's not a
household name of who jumped into the cake because it's
not a household. So we're gonna do a deep dive
into the story. Okay, next episode and perhaps get closer
(24:07):
to maybe having the cake jumper on the show, if
he's alive. I don't want to say it like that,
but you never know. Only Stephanie Seymour died in that video.
You never know. You don't know what happened with the
cake jumper after that, what was the aftermath? You can
make a Netflix series out of it. But I digress again,
(24:28):
So lots to come. I've already thinking about episode five hundred.
I can't even believe it. But when's the next episode?
In the words of Axo Rose concerning Chinese democracy, I
don't know as soon as the word, but you'll see.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
It thanks to the lame mass security. I'm going home.
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