BPS 445: What Every Indie Filmmaker Can Learn from a $5K Zombie Movie with Bojan Dulabic

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Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.

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I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.

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Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Speaker 4 (01:39):
Joining me today is Bouyon Dulabic. Boyan is a Vancouver
filmmaker and he just released the zombie feature film project
Jugenics Boyon, how are you, sir?

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Good?

Speaker 4 (01:49):
Good?

Speaker 5 (01:50):
Thank you for having me my friend.

Speaker 4 (01:52):
Oh, it's my pleasure. You know, we met through Jason
Brubaker's site. I end up meeting so many people because
of Jason. Really give him a producer credit for this podcast.

Speaker 5 (02:02):
It's a he's a great resource man. I've written a
few articles for his blog and uh, yeah, he's a
great guy, great guy.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
Yeah. And the article that got us introduced, so to speak,
was the article he wrote called how I made a
zombie film for five thousand dollars. And at first, when
I saw that, you know, I thought Jason may have
wrote that, and I was like, wow, Jason made another
zombie film, and I said, oh wait, it's this guy
Bullyon he just wrote it. I started to learn more
about you. So, you know, that's what we're going to
talk about this podcast is. You know, I'm sure a

(02:31):
lot of people probably saw that and was thinking, my god,
how do you make a zombie film for five thousand dollars,
let alone a feature zombie film? You know, five thousand dollars?
So bulliant you get started? You know, how did you
get into the film industry? Me?

Speaker 5 (02:44):
Yeah, oh man, that goes back a long time. You
know how every filmmaker has this story. You know, when
I was seven, my daddy bought me a camera and
you know, I started filming and I started to think
about that, how did it actually happen with me? And
I realized it actually goes as far back as when
I was five years old. I'm originally from Bosnia, which
is in eastern Europe, and my mom actually had her

(03:07):
own store and in there she also had a video
store at the time, and so obviously, you know, I
was I think I was around five. I started watching
movies and it was all Hollywood movies, and I loved it, right,
And so in nineteen ninety there was a war in
Bosnia and we moved to Germany and lived there as refugees,
and I just, you know, I just loved movies. But

(03:30):
not just movies. I mean I think every kid loves movies.
I love to watch making off you know. And you know,
back then we're talking early nineties, there was no Internet,
there was no YouTube, you know, so finding out how
movies were made it was not that easy. So luckily
there was some show so I would watch as much
as I could. And then in nineteen ninety eight we
moved to Croatia because I'm Croatian from Bosnia, so we

(03:54):
moved there and we lived there for three years, and
then we moved to Canada. And it was in Canada
and high school Winnipeg, City of Winnipeg when I where
I really developed an interest for acting and for filmmaking.
And it was I was in grade ten, uh, and yeah,
I just loved it. I you know. I started with
simple slide shows and I did I did my first

(04:17):
short film in I think it was my grade twelve
class English class. It was a creative project and you know,
I was like, I don't feel like doing another paper.
And I was like, hey, man, can I can I
make a movie? And my teachers like, sure, why not?
And so I did. And that was really when I
started doing it and got more and more into it.
Then I started doing videography for actually my my the

(04:41):
school division that my high school was part of, because
at that time they they saw some of my stuff
that I was doing. And uh because for whatever project,
uh school project that you know, if I could do
a video about it, I would, you know. And so
my teachers kind of you know, gotten to know my
my filmmaking abilities and all that stuff. And so it

(05:03):
started there. And then I went to the University of
Winnipeg studying theater. Didn't do any I didn't take any
film courses or anything. Everything when it comes to filmmaking
was pretty much self taught, uh, you know, by making
a lot of mistakes, you know, yeah, and you know,
you know how it goes. And then in two thousand
and seven, I moved to Vancouver, where I am now

(05:27):
to you know, pursue acting and filmmaking. So yeah, and
you know, I just kept doing short films, you know,
my my YouTube channel, web shows, you know, that kind
of stuff. And then in the twenty twelve I finally
decided I'm going to make my first feature, which was
a comedy at the time, and that one I actually

(05:48):
made for four thousand dollars. It was even less, but
it was a lot simpler. It was said mostly in
one location and you know, talking heads kind of comedy.
And yeah, when one was done, because I'm a you know,
zombie nerd and sci fi and horror geek, you know,
I was like, Okay, you know what, I think I

(06:09):
can do this. Initially, I actually my goal was to
make this movie for three thousand dollars, but you know,
I realized, okay, that's I'm pushing it with five, but
with three, I'm really that's just ridiculous. So yeah, then,
you know, in uh when was it early twenty late
twenty thirteen, early twenty fourteen, around there, I had this

(06:33):
idea for you know, this the zombie flick, and started
writing and by this summer or I was it, yeah bye.
By late summer of twenty fourteen, I had my you know,
first draft, and then I started, you know, started thinking
about casting and all that. Started casting in a October
ish of twenty fourteen and November first we started shooting,

(06:57):
so it was it was very quick process and you
know then editing took longer. But also, if you want
to add one more crazy element to the mix, I
also got married three months ago, so yeah, exactly, so
you know, obviously you know that's important and in many

(07:20):
ways that's more important than the movie, you know, but
I'm a filmmaker, so you know, we're crazy people. So yeah,
I managed to you know, make all that work. And
you know, I have an amazing wife who just I
can't think her enough for you know, putting up with me.
So yeah, that's kind of how I got into it.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
You know.

Speaker 4 (07:39):
You know, that was pretty quick from you know, having
that initial idea to actually getting you know, start shooting
the film. And you know, if there's one thing you
do need when making a film, it's another crazy element
to work against you, right. Yeah, So how long did
it take you to actually write the script then? From
you know, from concept to actually writing a full page screenplay.

Speaker 5 (07:59):
I would say it took about until I had my
first draft. I'd say about seven months, six seven months
around there.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (08:07):
Once I had the first draft, the rest was very
you know, relatively quick, but you know, getting it up
there to the first draft. Yeah, i'd say about that
around there.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
So when you were writing the screenplay, did you try
to like immerse yourself into zombie films? So some of
the other guests I've had on the show, one of
the things that I've noticed is whatever their theme or
genre they're writing for, all they will watch and read
about is just that one thing. So I imagine if
you use that method, all you were watching were zombie films.

(08:36):
Now did you Did you follow that method?

Speaker 5 (08:38):
Absolutely? Absolutely? And you know, as my wife will testify
because she hates horror, it was yes, I do the
exact same thing. I mean, I you know, I bought
a book about zombies, and I you know, rewatch pretty
much every zombie movie I have, and you know whatever
else is on Netflix, and you know, and uh, you

(09:01):
know out there because you have to. I mean you
really have to. I mean, to me, a zombie flick,
a good zombie flick, it's never it's not about the zombies, right,
It's always about something else. And then obviously use the
zombies to tell a story, so they're more storytelling device.
So to me, it was really the main thing was, Okay,

(09:23):
what is this movie about? Figure figuring out what's my angle,
you know what, because I mean, zombie movies have been
done to death obviously, and we all love it, but
there's one every week coming out, So how what can
I offer that's you know, a little unique, that's a
little you know, outside the box. So you know, that
was my main thing as I was watching, like I said,

(09:45):
all these these zombie flakes and reading and all that,
and uh, once I had that, you know, idea, and
once I figured that out, then the rest was a
lot easier. You know, still wasn't easy, but it was easier.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
You know.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (10:13):
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And you're
right though, you know, there is seemingly a new zombie
film coming out every week. You know. I was just
talking about it to my one friend and you know,
he's not in the film industry, but he watches a
ton of films and he's like, you know what, I'm
so sick of zombies. He's like, Dave, I don't want
to watch any zombie films. I ended up trying to

(10:33):
talk him into watching a zombie film after that, because
actually And one of the things that I've you know,
as producing movies, I've noticed is is that they're always
ask you know, what is your unfair advantage? You know,
if you're pitching to somebody, you know, what is your
unfair advantage? You know, what is our unique selling position?

Speaker 1 (10:49):
You know?

Speaker 4 (10:50):
And that's something that you were you know, you've you've
kind of hit on there, you know, because you have
to make it. What's going to be unique about your
you know, your film?

Speaker 3 (10:59):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (10:59):
You know anyway, listening to this, I'm not even talking
about making a zombie fl I'm talking about making any film.
You know, how are you going to make it unique
that so it stands out from the crowd? And you know,
obviously you know, boyon, one of the things you did
was you know, you know, you put your own style
into it. You know, I don't know if it wor
wass in your mouth, but you know, I actually, why
don't I just ask you? So, you know, what are
some of the things that you that you wanted to

(11:20):
make sure you got in there that made it sort
of your style, made it your movie that you can
help stand out?

Speaker 5 (11:25):
Uh? Sure, yeah, I mean, you know, growing up the
way I did, you know, moving around a lot and
be you know, being part of different cultures and and
all that stuff. Was great on one hand because it
really gave me insight into just just humanity, right, I mean,
just uh, understanding how the world works.

Speaker 4 (11:46):
Right.

Speaker 5 (11:47):
But on the other hand, it also made me the
constant outsider, you know. I mean, as much as I
tried to fit in, you know, it's it's difficult, right,
So that's kind of you know what I try try
to bring to this it's you know, interestingly enough if well,
if if I can use that word for lack of
a better word, you know, the things that are happening

(12:09):
lately just around the world and all that it. You know,
it really seems like like a zombie flake in one hand,
in the sense that, you know, one of the things,
for example, I tried to accomplish in this movie was
I'm trying to I'm trying to say without giving away
you know, a plot lines, but essentially a lot of
it deals with information, you know, what's happening.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (12:34):
You know, person A tells you, this person, he tells you,
this person he tells you is you know, and all
that stuff, and you're kind of stuck in the middle
going I don't know what's going on, you know, So
that was kind of what I tried to bring into it, Uh,
a certain a safe confusion. I watched an interview with
Tarantino a long time ago where he talked about I

(12:56):
think he was talking about reservoir dogs or pulp or
pulp Pulp actually one of the two, and he was
talking about this concept that he calls a safe confusion,
where you know, you want the audience to be confused
in terms of, okay, what's going on, but at the
same time, it has to be safe in the sense
you haven't lost them right as you as you unfold
the story. You know, you want them to be safe

(13:17):
and keep watching. But yet there's a certain amount of
confusion they need to have because that's when they'll they'll
engage more. So that's what I tried to do with
the way I structured the story, which, again, without giving
too much away, it it's a bit different, and you know,

(13:38):
it's not as simple, okay, from A to B kind
of a scenario. So on one hand, I try to
do that with the structure of the story, and I
try to, like I said, I try to talk about
real well quote unquote real things that that do happen
in in the world, which you know, uh, the way

(14:01):
the world is being portrayed by, whether it's the media,
by by just individuals, by you know, whoever it is,
because I do believe, you know that we live in in,
like I said, interesting times where we have so much
access to technology. I mean, it is crazy, man. I'm
sitting right now. You know, you don't see it, but
I'm sitting in front of two screens. I got my tablet,
I got my phone. There's way too much technology here.

Speaker 3 (14:24):
You know.

Speaker 5 (14:25):
It would take me five seconds to look up anything
whatever I'm interested in, you know. So that's great on
one hand, but on the other hand, there's also I
feel this this confusion as to you know, what is
going on in the world. You know, like I said,
whether it's politics, but whatever it is, it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
You know.

Speaker 5 (14:44):
It's not my job as a filmmaker to tell you
what's going on, because I don't I don't think that's
what we should be doing. But it's simply my job
to talk about these things. And you know, you make
up your mind. I don't, you know, it's I respect,
you know, whatever opinions people have but yeah, if that
makes any sense, that's kind of what I tried to
bring into this, to make it more than just a

(15:07):
you know, just you know, just a dumb zombie flake,
because like I said, I love zombies, but it shouldn't
just be about the zombies. It's it should be more
than that.

Speaker 4 (15:17):
You know, Yeah, definitely, And you know, I think The
Walking Dead, you know, hit touches on that theme. And
then you know, obviously Romero he really set the tone
fall of it with Night Living Dead, and you know,
then he went into into consumerism with Dawn of the Dead,
and then we went into the whole Day of the Dead.
I mean, I actually just rewatched Data Dead a while ago,
and it actually was a lot better than I remembered.

(15:40):
I remember, you know, in high school watching the three
of those, and I remember liking Dawn the most by
far and away. And I came back and re visited
Day to Dead recently, and I was like, wow, this
is a lot better than I remembered it. Maybe I
was just too stupid as a kid.

Speaker 5 (15:51):
I don't know, No, absolutely no, I absolutely agree. I mean,
interestingly enough, I mean, Ramiro is obviously one of my
top zombie well, I think he is the top zombie god,
you know, the film God. But interesting enough, it was
actually Diary of the Dead. I don't know if you've
seen that one. That I mean, I've seen all of them,

(16:12):
but that one was really the one that stood out
to me and the one that I would say probably
inspired me the most in terms of you know what
I want to talk about, because it does deal with
different sorty similar themes just in the sense that you know,
everything's well, it's slightly different, but you know, technology plays

(16:33):
a big part and and you know a certain like
I said, confusion as to what's going on and manipulation. Yeah,
that's the right word. So yeah, no, I agree. You know,
Romero was a big influence on me as well. You know,
I mean, there's plenty of them if we step slightly
out of the zombie genre. Robert Rodriguez is my one

(16:54):
of my top guys just in terms of executing a movie.
I mean, I'm sure I'm not the first one to
say this. When I heard way way back that, you know,
when he made El Mariachi for seven thousand dollars, you know,
I was like, really, get out of here, you know,
I was. I read it somewhere in the book. This
was before I, you know, started really started on my

(17:15):
filmmaking a journey, and I was like, good god, man,
if he made that back in ninety two, why shouldn't
I be able to do you know, my version of
it by today's standards, which should be better because technology
is better, it's cheaper, you know. Let's so that's really

(17:35):
you know, when when this seed was planted in my
head that you know, I don't need it. Yes, it
would be great if I had one hundred thousand dollars,
a million dollars, you know, whatever, Right, I don't so,
but I'm pretty confident I can. I can do this,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (17:52):
Yeah, as we as filmmakers today, you know, Jason and
I talked about this too. Was we have so much
information being thrown at us, and a lot of the times,
you know, we end up not actually making a film.
We talk about making a film. We sit there and
we research every camera package and you know this, boyan,
there's a new camera package coming out every other day.

(18:13):
It's you know, Red is over there in Cannon and
Panasonic and here's a black Magic and I mean it's
just it's a never ending deluge of new camera packages,
and now you spend more time reading about cameras and
lighting kits than you do actually writing a screenplay and going, hey,
wait a minute, maybe I should make this. But wait, first,
I got to look at the new camera packages. I

(18:33):
think I think Road just released a new audio kid.
I gotta look at that, you know, And I think
that's sort of it's it's it's paralysis through analysis. That
that's the best way to describe it. And you know
that's but it's but it's good though that you read
Rodriguez's book and then you know realized, hey, you know,
why couldn't I make this zombie film for five thousand dollars?

Speaker 1 (18:53):
No.

Speaker 5 (18:53):
Absolutely, and to go back to the whole gear fetish
as I like to go on. Absolutely, I agree, and
I think we all suffer from that. I do too. Absolutely,
you know, I you know this, this evolution of technology
in terms of you know, filmmaking related technology is amazing.
But yes, at some point you have to stop yourself

(19:15):
and say, you know what, that's great. And yes, in reality,
if I make this movie today, if I had waited
a year longer, certain aspects would of it would probably
be easier to make. But then you're in this endless
cycle where yeah, you'll never make anything because you know,
things are always getting better, easier. I mean for this film,
I used the black Magic Pocket Cinema camera, which and

(19:38):
I you know, I really wanted to use it for
this flick because you know, because of various things. And
we can certainly talk about that too. But you know,
if I had waited, for example, until now, you know,
I could have used the micro what is it, the
black Magic micro studio camera. They got this really small one.

Speaker 1 (19:58):

Speaker 5 (20:07):
Which would have allowed me to do even fancier shots,
you know what I mean. So, yeah, you can get
crazy just thinking about all that stuff. So yeah, it's uh,
it's great, and but on one hand you have to
stop yourself and say, yeah, do this now, and yeah

(20:27):
when Yeah, going back to Rodriguez, I mean you know
when I you know, read about him in a different
book and started reading his book and all that stuff.
You know, the one thing and Jason talks about this too,
the one thing that you know, certainly filmmakers who are

(20:48):
you know, beginning beginner filmmakers, there are certain myths that
we we start to believe, which is, you know, well,
you have to have whatever a million dollars to make
a movie, or you know, have to you have to
have twenty people on crew, you know, to do all
this blah blah. And don't get me wrong it certainly,
you know, there are specific budgets for specific types of

(21:11):
movies that you should have and all that. However, you know,
if you get creative, you can make I'm not gonna
say you can make everything work, because there are certain
things that really, you know, probably not gonna work, but
most things you can. And you know, like Rodriguez said
in an interview and in his book, you know, take

(21:31):
stock of what you have, you know, take stock of
of of the relationships you have built and what do
you have access to, and make a movie about that.
You know, I did that for my first movie. I
did that for this movie. And I mean, you should
always challenge yourself and you know, grow, so you know
that's that's obviously important. But don't be afraid, man, just

(21:53):
get out and do it. And yeah, you're gonna make mistakes,
you know, you're, in my opinion, the best thing I
could have done for this movie, and my other movie
was not to think everything through, you know what I mean,
because a lot of times we become our own enemy
when we start dissecting everything, you know. I mean you

(22:16):
need to have a game plan, absolutely, but there are
certain things where you'll just have to deal with it
if it occurs or you know, as it unfolds, because
you don't have all the answers. I mean, good guy, man,
I've you know, I've been on set as an actor
on professional sets, and I always love to observe the
crew because you know, that's the filmmaker in me, and

(22:38):
you think they have all the answers with millions of
dollars of budgets. No, So sometimes you just take things
as they are, but don't be afraid to just dive
in there and you know, get your feedway.

Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, very true. I You know, oftentimes we think, you know,
we have to have this large amount of money to
do things. And the key I think is if we
are going to set out to make a movie and
we're gonna fund it ourselves or even crowdfund, or even crowdfund,
you know a certain amount of money, I think the
script has to be written that way on purpose, meaning

(23:13):
that you know, we're not gonna be able to do
all these wonderful special effects unless either a you know
how to do it personally, like you as the as
the director or whoever know how to do that. And
I've seen filmmakers do that. They they are special effects
guys by trade. So all the VFX stuff looks amazing,
you know, all the bull time stuff. And then on
the flip side of that, you know they're hoping to,

(23:34):
you know, maybe form it out, maybe going to somewhere
like Upwork or somewhere to find somebody maybe in like
you know, India or something that could do it for
a cheaper price. But you know, boring that. You know,
I think if you are going to rate, you know,
make a movie and let's just say we have one
thousand dollars to spend, like kind of like what Mark
Duplas was recommending, just go making movies as cheap as
possible to learn how to make movies. We should make that,

(23:56):
you know, we should write, Hey, listen, what do I
have access to? I have access to my car, my house,
this woods next to me. I can use my aunt
Susie's house. You know, how am I going to figure
out how can I make this into a movie that
you know is going to keep audiences engaged? Well, maybe
I don't have enough for ninety minutes. Maybe I have
enough for twenty minutes. So maybe I should make a

(24:18):
short film instead and just build off from there.

Speaker 5 (24:21):
Absolutely absolutely agree with everything. I mean, that's you know,
that's exactly what I tried to do on this one.
You know, what I really wanted to do on this
one that I didn't do in the first one was
having more actors, having more locations, right. I really wanted
to step up the production value on that side. But

(24:43):
of course, you know, there's no budget really for those things.
So I knew, okay, I have access to certain places.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
You know.

Speaker 5 (24:49):
I shot at my brother's place, I shot at my
buddy's place. You know, I had access to a studio,
so I was able to shoot some stuff there. And
you know, for example, you talked about VFX. I'm not
a professional VFX guy. However, I am actually getting more
and more into it. But I knew that, Okay, I

(25:10):
can do certain things with you know, with the efs,
and and I do talk about this. I think I
talked about that in the article as well. For example,
I used video co pilots plug ins, uh for after effects,
and they allowed me to animate you know, jets and

(25:30):
drones and all that kind of stuff and uh, you know,
create certain shots that I couldn't have gotten otherwise, not
with my budget. Right, so you know, understanding that, okay,
I can bring this to the game, and I think
I talk about this. Doing the article, I you know,
made use of of stock footage, which in my opinion,

(25:55):
stock footage when used properly and sparingly and all, there's
nothing wrong with it. I know there's filmmakers who shy
away from it, but to me, if using somebody else's music,
what's the difference. It's somebody else's material. But like I said,
as long as it supports your story and it makes sense,
and you know you're not using it every every two

(26:16):
minutes or so, nothing wrong with it. So I made
use of that. So I understood all these things as
I was writing the you know, the script and the
way I structured the story. I also structured it purposely
that way because like I said, I wanted more actors,

(26:36):
and there's there's quite a few actors in this one,
but I don't have the budget to pay them. You know,
but I figured, well, if I if I only use
actors for one too, maybe three days at the most,
I think that can work, right, So I structured the
script that way where you know, that's what I ended
up happening, because at the end of the day, you know,

(26:56):
you have to you have to understand that, you know,
you can't abuse other people, you know what I mean.
I mean, yes, this is my dream, this is my
passion and all that, but that's mine. It's not others.
You know, for other people, that's just a job, a gig,
and when they're not getting paid, well, you got to
be sensitive to that, right, So and yeah, it's probably

(27:17):
the actor in me as well. I've been enough in
these shoots where you know, you start to feel like
you're being taken for granted in this one, you know.
So I you know, I was thinking about all these
things as I was, like I said, constructing the story,
which is important. It's it's crucial because at the end
of the day, I'd rather do a you know, a

(27:42):
smaller project, but do it right then try to attempt
this epic thing where at the end of the day,
you know, I burn out and I don't even finish it.
The way I want. I owe money to gazillions of people,
and everyone hates me.

Speaker 4 (27:55):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (27:56):
This way, I'm good, you know, and.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
You know that that's I made a mistake like that
when I first started, you know, I I tried to
make something way too epic for like my second or
third movie. This movie will never see a light No,
it was my third movie. That's right, because my second
and third short films will never ever see the light
of day. But the third one somebody actually has on

(28:20):
a dvday. And if I ever even got a monocule
of success, I know somebody would be like, hey, look
at this, this is Dave Willis's thing. But basically, there
was a lot of gunplay and I had this is
what video co pilot. I actually have that DVD as well.
I actually got got the DVD for I think Christmas,

(28:41):
or maybe I bought it myself. And what happened was
I was all all set to do all I did,
all the choreography worked out well, one by one I
had my crew drop out. So now I'm doing like,
not only three roles and four roles, now I'm doing
like six or seven roles. So now it's down to me,
my cinematographer, because this is a whole new team. I've
ever worked with these guys before. And as the day

(29:05):
went on, I just had more and more problems kept
creeping up that you know, I could have worked out
had I had more people to fight these fires. For me,
why I fight these fires because now it's like, you know,
I'm going around trying to fix this and do that,
and then you know the place was supposed to be vacant,
and then here, who guess what happens? Here comes security?

(29:26):
Who are you guys? You're not supposed to be here?
And I'm like, yes, we are. I have been over
this for months talking to you guys. I mean, it's
just it was a complete disaster. But the point I'm
trying to make is if I had just done something
even a slightly slightly step backwards on a slightly small scale, we'll.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
I would have had a much better time. I would
have had a much better finish product, and we probably
would have gotten shot. Probably got would have gotten everything
shot that day, rather than you know, having like pieces
of it, you know, put together somewhere and you know,
eventually I put together what was like a rough cut
of a couple of days, and it was like you
couldn't show this anywhere. It was unbearable to watch. Just

(30:19):
everything that could went wrong did go wrong. My second
and third student films that everything that could go wrong
went wrong. It was unbelievable. You know, we were just
talking about, you know, making things that are epic. So
there's advice to pull from this from anybody listening. Do
not try to make like Godzilla or Lord of the
Rings or Inglorious Bastard's your first time. You will fail horribly.

Speaker 5 (30:44):
Yep. Well, I absolutely agree. You know, I've done a
fair share of mistakes on you know, like short films
and all that, but I definitely you know, there's a
lot of anxiety and fear on my first film, and
that's why, you know, that's why that one, like like
I mentioned earlier, it's a comedy mostly set in one location.

(31:08):
You know, it's two roommates and it's in their apartment
and you know, stuff starts to go wrong and that
kind of you know, those kinds of scenarios and you know,
we shot that one in eight days on weekends, and
you know, that Really that was a great sort of playground,

(31:30):
learning ground for me to see. Okay, first of all,
can I do? That was eighty three minutes? Which is
this one is also eighty minutes, so you know it's
the same length. So that was a good opportunity for
me to see, Okay, can I can I actually make
a feature? You know, an eighty minute thing?

Speaker 4 (31:45):
Can I?

Speaker 5 (31:46):
Cause you know a lot of filmmakers talk about that,
but they've actually never done it. Yeah, I know, I
didn't know what does it actually entail to make such
a such a longer piece. You know, at that point
my longest short was probably twelve fifteen minutes maybe, you know,
so you know, but there was a certain safe environment because,

(32:08):
like I said, mostly shot in one location. It had
four main actors and then there was few others, but
it was mostly those four guys, right, And you know,
I was very happy when when it was all done
and with you know, the end result, and it it
boosted my my what's the word, man, my my not

(32:32):
my ego but my confidence confidence, thank you Jesus, I
can talk. Oh yes, So it definitely boosted my confidence
and you know, made me realize that Okay, I think
I'm ready to do something bigger. But that's that's a
crucial moment right there. Uh, when it could have fallen
apart easily if I had gone, you know, just a

(32:55):
slightly bigger than what I ended up doing. You know,
it's a tricky thing, and I've obviously I have many
filmmaking friends, as we all do, and actor friends and
all that, and you know, some of them have never
made a feature, some of them are still working on it,
and some are recovering from it, you know, as we

(33:19):
all are. And you know, it's always good to just
be cognizant of Okay, you should always have your own style, absolutely,
but you know, if you know people have done it,
talk to them.

Speaker 4 (33:31):
You know.

Speaker 5 (33:31):
I love to talk to you know, guys like you,
other filmmakers, and just kind of bounce ideas off, you know, Okay,
this is what worked for me. I don't know if
it's going to work for you, but this is what
worked for me, you know. And you know, once you
start doing that, once you start understanding this whole process,
it definitely helps you. At least it helped me, you know,

(33:53):
so hopefully when the next one, you know, when it's
time for the next one I'll you know, it'll be
but like I said, I don't want to go overboard
where that one's pretty much gonna bury me.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
You know.

Speaker 4 (34:07):
Yeah, it's somebody once told me before when I was
starting out. They said, Dave, never listened to anybody in
this business who teaches you how to make a film
who's never actually made a film. Never listen to anybody
who's about how to write a script if they'd never
written a script. He said, you know, this is all
so hands on that you can't just keep you know,

(34:28):
there's a lot of theory and all of this. There's
a lot of theory like, hey, I could you know,
make it this way or that way? What you really
need is is that meat and potato, so to speak.
And I actually wrote a book. It didn't get published.
It's actually on a hard drive. I took everybody on
this journey day by day, and I actually took a
snapshot of my bank account, well, the production's bank account,

(34:52):
everything from Czech stubbs, receipts, my own like writings of
how I dealt with problems with crew, cast locations, and
every day, at the end of every day or at
the beginning of every day, I would write something. At
the end of every day, I would write something so
like day one had a beginning, and this is what happened,
this is what we're playing on doing. And then I
at the end of the day, I would come back

(35:12):
and write this and I would give you snapshots. I
compiled it all together into a book with this TV pilot,
and I actually pitched it and a lot of places
were like, you know, this is a lot, and I said, well,
it's it's just detailing. You know, how did I come
up with a thousand dollars very quickly? How did I
get this money? How did I when PayPal shut down
our crowdfunding campaign because they had no clue what it

(35:34):
was they How did I come back from that? It's
that's the stuff that you know, you have to talk about.
And then there's also like I actually have my own
private checklist of what I do now, Like I'm gonna
start a crowdfunding campaign next year. I know exactly what
I'm going to do differently than I've done when I
did years ago, and even when I've done last year.

(35:55):
When I was helping out other friends, you know, sometimes
I would they would you know, send me their link
or whatever. And I'd say, oh, okay, just do this
and this, and you know, I you know, don't worry
about credit. It's just you know, when the time comes
to you know, retweet my stuff or help me out
any way you can. But but yeah, you know, it's
it's just about those relationships and actually cultivating it and
you know, not being you know, just not being a

(36:17):
jerk to people.

Speaker 5 (36:17):
I guess right, well, absolutely, no, absolutely. I mean, first
of all, that sounds like an amazing book. Man, you know,
I want to read that, you know. No, but absolutely,
that's that's exactly what it is. You know, going back
to your your comment about listening people have never actually
made a film. II one hundred percent agree. And we

(36:39):
all have listened to these individuals who have these amazing theories.
And at the end of the day, look, if you
haven't done it yourself, or or if you unless you
are talking about what someone else said, it's a theory.
You know. I only talk about things that I've actually done,
you know, because at the end of the day, I

(37:02):
don't know, And I don't want to be the guy
who gives you some bs you know, information, because I
wouldn't want to be the one receiving bs information either,
you know what I mean. So no, absolutely, it's it's
it's a tricky thing because you know, obviously everyone has
an opinion, and you know, the one thing I always

(37:23):
like to do, you know, whenever I meet you know,
let's say, filmmakers, and you know, we start talking about everything,
and you know, after I've met them, I looked them
up online just to see, Okay, has this person actually
done something, because you know, you know, if they have
given me so many information all that, I want to

(37:44):
see where it actually comes from. And you know, in
some cases, you know, you're positively surprised to go, holy,
well they've done amazingly. I want to talk more to
this person. And then you know, there's there's situations where
you go, I see nothing here, you know, I see
absolutely nothing thing. Uh So at that point you kind
of go, I don't know, man, I don't know. And

(38:07):
you know, it's the same thing I you know, I
have my YouTube channel where I have a show called
Filmmaking Today, uh where I talk about it's all different things.
Gear I use techniques I use for my film and
my projects. And I always you know, from the beginning,
I told myself, I will only talk about things that

(38:27):
I'm actually doing, you know, because again there's so many
videos about you know, all kinds of things coming from
people who have actually never done it. I kind of
have an issue with UH as an actor. I also
have an issue with, you know, acting coaches, because you know,

(38:49):
you got to be careful with that. You know, you take,
you take a workshop with person X, and uh, you know,
you look them up and you see they had they
have actually less gigs than you. You know, Okay, I
I technically I'm more qualified to teach you this. Of
course you know what I mean. So this is not
not a good idea. So yeah, I agree to you know,

(39:13):
put it in one sentence.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
It's funny you mentioning acting coaches. There was actually an
acting coach on my Facebook. He deleted me just recently.
He was always inviting me to all his events in
New York and stuff like that. And you know, I
actually one day watched one of his uh I don't
want it's not a real it's like a promo for
his classes, and he acted like he was like the

(39:38):
best actor who's ever existed. So I looked him up
and he was in virtually nothing and I'm like, how
the hell is this guy running acting classes who has
done absolutely positively nothing. And that's why when he deleted me,
I'm like, I didn't even worry about it. I was like, oh, well,
because I have an app on my Facebook that tells

(39:58):
when amboy deletes me.

Speaker 1 (40:00):

Speaker 4 (40:10):
And yeah, so I actually I was like, you know,
I don't even care anymore. So I took that app
off because, like, you know, why even bother right, I'm
barely on Facebook anymore anyway, so as most people can tell,
I'm just like going there and hit this net. But
now I'm sorry, now I'm getting off topic. But yeah,
the h now I'm talking about face fucking But yeah, no,
you know, you're absolutely right. It's like Alex Ferrari, he

(40:31):
just had a post on his indie film Hustle dot
com blog where he said, don't hire somebody just because
they have a very good looking camera. That is a
mistake that I made one time. And the guy. The
guy was talented, but he was also insane, and by
the end we were fighting back and forth. He was
fighting with everybody, and you know, everyone kind of gave

(40:52):
me the eye, like you hired this guy, and I said,
you know, I was like, guys, I'm sorry, I try
to fire him. The producer wants to keep him because
he's got you know, the red camera and he's got this.
But it was a complete, you know, disaster and final
and I afterwards like I was so burned out of
the project. I didn't want to talk about it anymore.
I was just, you know, I told the producers, you know,

(41:14):
that guy completely sapped all the energy, because I mean,
you you know, Boujeon. You know, when you go into
a film set, anybody and it's whether it's you, me,
Quentin Tarantino, robber Rorie, we all have a finite amount
of energy and patience and everything else, you know, we
we all have at the beginning of the day, we
have you know that those levels, you know, and as

(41:36):
you go on, you know, going through everything, you know,
it gets whittled down. Certain things get taken out more
than others, you know, but by the end of the day,
you know, you're pretty much on empty, you know, physically
and mentally and sometimes spiritually. And you know that's when
you're you finally realize you know. Wow, it does take
a village to raise a child. Sometimes it does take

(41:56):
a whole army to make a film. And this is why.

Speaker 5 (42:00):
And I mean, I don't think most people realize absolutely
how exhausting this process is, especially in the film in
the in the film world where you know, everything smaller,
the budgets are smaller, you know everything, And absolutely, I
I have had my fair share of, you know, situations

(42:22):
where you know, whether it was dealing. I have been
blessed to work with great casts, but you know, there
are certain situations where they might not understand that. Look,
it's not it's not just about you, you know. I
mean again, I'm an actor, and when I'm once said
I I understand that there are so many things happening

(42:44):
at once, so many so many stars have to line up, uh,
you know, line up to to make this one shot
and uh, you know, we all have to suck it
up essentially, you know, uh, and you know it's difficult.
It absolutely is difficult. I mean on you know, on
this this set, it was you know, a typical day

(43:06):
would pretty much consist of me. I would have my
audio guy, I would have you know, my my makeup
and prosthetics person and then if I'm lucky, one more
person right sort of to help out a little bit
of everything, and you know, that's it, you know, and
then the actors, obviously, however many there were, so you know,

(43:27):
we're not talking, like I said, twenty thirty people on set,
because I'm a strong believer that the more people you
have on set as crew members, it all slows you down.
And a you know, it's not about having a lot
of people. It's about having the right amount of people,
you know. And yeah, sometimes I might go overboard and
you know, maybe not having enough, but that's what allows

(43:49):
me to shoot seven to ten pages a day, which
is what I average. We shut this film in ten days,
and you know, it's it's it's an exhausting process. At
the end of the day. I mean, I'm the first
one on set, I'm the last one to leave, you know.
I there have been plenty of days where I wouldn't
even eat anything. Not because I don't want to eat,
it's because of you know, when when it's lunchtime, I'm

(44:10):
going through my shot list and I'm going, Okay, we
got to get this done. We gotta do this. I
talk to my sound guy. You know, my whoever it is,
my prosthetics person, you know, and that kind of stuff.
So it's very exhausting. But you know, I do believe
that you have to have a certain amount of insanity
as a filmmaker to attempt anything in this world, because

(44:35):
I think any sane person would go, I I'm good man,
I'll stick to my nine to five, you know. So
I am blessed with a certain insanity which which keeps
me going, you know.

Speaker 4 (44:48):
And you need that, you need that little bit of
insanity that when you say at the end of at
the end of some of these projects, you'll say, never again,
Never again? Am I going to do this? I don't
care what comes along in six month months later. You know,
at most you're like, damn, I should go make a movie.
You know, what the hell's going on here? Uh? Because
you know, I mean, like you know, my quick you
know little story. Uh, it's been about four years since

(45:11):
I actually made anything of my my own, like I mean,
and that's not say I haven't been on other people's
sets or done this or done that. I'm just talking
about my own stuff. It's the last thing that produced
was about four years ago. And uh, I there's an
interesting story about why it's been four years, but uh,
it's just to be put make a long story short.
It's it's crazy people. I I we had a crazy editor.

(45:34):
And I finally looked at the guy that was the
director and because I recommended this guy, because all of
a sudden, he just kind of went berserk, and uh,
I'll tell the story in another podcast, but basically I
was like, I apologize. I'm gonna work to figure the
you know, to to solve this stuff. And that's uh,
that's to that point where I was like, I must
be insane to to to keep wanting to come back

(45:56):
and be a gluttingham for punishment with this stuff. You know.
It's like, my god, I didn't you know? And uh,
you know, speaking of you know, of editing, actually one
of the questions I want to ask you too, boyon
was you know what did you use to uh to
edit Project Eugenics.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Uh?

Speaker 5 (46:09):
Yeah, I used Premiere Pro for editing. I I'm a
I'm an Adobe nerd, right, so I use most of
most of their products. So yeah, for editing, it was
a Premiere Pro. I used to use Final Cut seven
a while a while ago. And on My, My, My,
last movie, my first movie. I actually was one of

(46:30):
those people who switched to Final Cut ten and I
actually edited most of the movie in there, and it
it did not work out. Just it just my personal opinion,
it's not what seven used to be. So I I
went back to because before or somewhere in between that
I can't remember, I was using Premiere, and so I
went back to Premiere, which I I use exclusively now

(46:53):
for you know, my editing, and because I love the
integration with Premiere Pro and after Effects, you know, just
being able to send the sequence into after Effects to do,
you know, whatever I need to do, and then you know,
keep working in it.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
So yeah, yeah, I use all the Adobe products as well.
You can't beat that because all you do is literally
you click a button and I edit this podcast and
audition and if I you know, when I'm in Premiere,
I can click a button and just say send audio
to audition, and I can work on all the audio problems.
I can take up pomps and clicks and stuff. I mean,
it's just it's amazingly easier. You actually couldn't get any easier,

(47:32):
because I mean maybe you could, but I mean it's
just it's phenomenal. The way it works together.

Speaker 5 (47:37):
Oh absolutely, I mean, I you know, I I also
do graphic and web design related things, so you know,
I obviously use Photoshop and illustrator for for all that.
And you know, in my opinion, I know a lot
of people hated when Adobe switched over to their Creative
Cloud subscription based model, and I actually love it. I
think I think it's it's it's a great model. You know,

(48:01):
I'm constant, We're all constantly getting updates and they're great.
I mean, you know, just recently I discovered their mobile apps,
so you can actually create a lot, you know, a
color lookup table using your phone. You just take a
photo of whatever, I would say, a sunset, and it
will create those colors and you can apply that to

(48:22):
your video footage. And it's amazing, you know, just the integration,
which goes back to what I you know, what I
said earlier, earlier, The advancements in this field, I mean
technology in general, but especially this field are so incredible.
I mean, there's really no excuse not to make a film,

(48:42):
you know, whatever type of film, it doesn't matter. You know, yes,
twenty thirty years ago, it was you know, ten times
more difficult, and you know you needed to ask for permission,
right like like Jason always talks about asking for permission. Nope,
we're done with that. I'm not going to ask anyone
for permission, you know. I'm you know, able to make

(49:05):
my films the way they are. And obviously I want
to grow the budgets and all that. I don't want
to keep making five thousand dollars movies. But I'm not
asking anyone for permission, you know. And that's extremely empowering
and it really allows you to tell your story. You know,
whether people like the movie or not, I have no
impact on that. But this is my story. This is

(49:28):
it's truly a director's cut. There's no you know, no
one interfering, you know.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
You know that That's That's what you know a lot
of filmmakers are doing now is they don't want you know,
they don't have to ask for permission. They don't have
to you know, wait for someone's notes to come in
after seeing the dailies anymore. You know, it's they can
go out and they can they they're the ones calling
the shots. For instance, like m Night Shyamalan, that's what
he does now because you know, after he made After Earth,

(49:55):
he said, I don't want to do this whole studio
system anymore. So we went out, made the visit.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,

Speaker 4 (50:10):
And it was a lot more successful for him, both
financially and you know, as an artist, because now he
didn't have anybody telling him, you know, what to do,
because he could do it himself. You know, he he
made all his own calls. There was no notes. Don't
want to look over his shoulder, and that's you know,
that's when value as a filmmaker. Robert Riguez also was
talking about that recently when he said, you know, I'd

(50:32):
rather have less money and more freedom than you know,
more money, and I have to answer to ten thousand people.
He said, you know, it's I'd easily rather have less money.

Speaker 5 (50:42):
Oh absolutely, I mean, I'm right on board with that statement.
I mean, I you know, I mean, my one of
my goals is to show people, you know that, Okay,
this is what I can do for five thousand dollars.
And by the way, that's five thousand Canadian dollars, which
in US is like two bucks nowadays worth nothing apparently,
but anyway, So that's you know, that is my goal.

(51:04):
And I actually I have absolutely no desire to make
like one hundred or one hundred and fifty million dollar
blockbuster movie. I really don't because, knowing myself how passionate
I get about these things, I probably get fired, you know,
for picking a fight with with the wrong executive and
all that stuff. And I you know, so those stories

(51:27):
don't interest me because I think for you know, for
one million. I mean, you know, you look, especially in
the horror field. Another one of my favorite directors is
James Wont you know he made the first Saw movie
and the Insidious movies and all that, and I mean
you look at just those movies, all of them, all

(51:48):
the Insidious movies. I think the first one had a
budget of eight hundred thousand, I think somewhere around there.
And then you know, the budgets grew slowly, but they're
still in a couple of a few million dollar range.
And you look at those movies and man, they're amazing.
I mean, the horror fan in me, you know, if
you're into horror, I love it. And from a production

(52:08):
point of view, I think it's done very well, you know,
So you know, I think, you know, I mean, Spielberg
talked about you know this, and Lucas too about, you know,
the implosion of Hollywood, which my opinion is, I think
something will happen in the next you know, a little

(52:29):
bit the way I kind of see it. You know,
if you look at the history of Hollywood, you know,
back in the late sixties, when when the studio system
fell apart, right and you had corporations buying all the
studios and making the movies, and you know, that was
sort of the first, uh, the first or the second

(52:50):
wave technically, you know, the first wave was the one
that started, and you had the second wave with the corporations,
and I kind of look at this as the third wave,
which is us indie guys, call it the YouTubers, whatever
you want to call it doesn't matter who are able.
And I'm not talking about you myself here, I'm talking
about in general. There's certainly plenty of other directors who
are able to do much more than I am with

(53:12):
small budgets. And you know, you look at the stuff
that they're doing for virtually nothing, you know, and yes,
most people don't get paid on those sets. But you
know what I have there are indie projects who that
cost one hundred, one hundred and fifty thousand dollars and
people still don't get paid, you know. And then you
look at movies where you know, like five thousand or

(53:34):
ten thousand. Well, you know, I think if you make
a movie for ten thousand, just give the person out
of ten thousand, then everyone would get paid, you know
what I mean, but it would still be a great product.
Whereas you start wondering, okay, the you know, millions and
millions of dollar budgets, what happened?

Speaker 4 (53:54):
Man?

Speaker 5 (53:54):
You know, where's the quality? Where you know, did everything
go towards the catering budgets? You know what I mean?
It was like, you know, you start to wonder, and yeah,
so I firmly believe that we are part of the
next wave, so to speak, because at the end of
the day, you know, you can't keep having budgets in

(54:16):
the two hundred million dollar range.

Speaker 4 (54:18):
I mean, you know, you.

Speaker 5 (54:19):
Look at you know, the recent Terminator movie. I mean,
if it wasn't for China and the money they made
their the movie obviously Flopped's let's not kid ourselves. You
can say whatever you want. In North America, the movie flopped,
but it didn't have to. It could have been something.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
You know.

Speaker 5 (54:38):
I was praying it would be something as I was
watching it. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of
change coming our way, and you know, I think in
the end it will be positive change if we just
stick to our guns and you know, say, you know, look,
we can tell these stories. And you know I'm not

(55:00):
you know, if a producer comes to me and says, listen,
we have a couple of million we want you to
direct this movie, you know, I'm not going to be
like na, na, I'm an indie guy. Now, No, I'm
going to take the money. I'm going to make a movie.
But absolutely, you know, you're not stupid. But at the
at the same time, if you came to me, you
obviously trust that I can bring something to it. So

(55:21):
let me tell my story, you know, And that's easier
to tell. It's easier to have the conversation with someone
when you're talking about a two million dollar production versus
a two hundred million you So, yes, it's you know,
I think a lot is going to happen, and some
of it is already, you know.

Speaker 4 (55:42):
Yeah, you know, I wonder as I was talking to
my last podcast interview with Brad Wilkie. You know, a
lot of this I think is it's so accessible now
and we always talk about who is going to rise
to the top. Is it just so overcrowded that it
takes a rare instance of you know, the perfect storm
of a network of money, of this and that to

(56:03):
rise to the top. Or is it just still the
old fashioned way where everything's still just gonna rise at
the top based upon quality, meaning like you know, the
Reservoir Dogs is still gonna rise to the top those
types of movies. I actually feel both are trope. Personally,
I think that you know, even with you know, the
influx of new filmmakers now just in the past year
or two, I really do think that you know, you're

(56:25):
gonna see the quality projects are always gonna go to
the top. You're gonna cause you know, you always trust
your friends most of all. So if your friend tells you, hey, listen,
go watch you know whatever movie, most of the time
you're gonna listen to them. You're gonna say, hey, okay,
I'll sit down, I'll carve out the time. But you know,
I think with the you know, with a lot of
these superhero movies. I think that's gonna cause a lot
of burnout. But then again, I said that like two

(56:47):
years ago, and then there's still you know, cheerning them out,
and there's still number one at the box office. And
now Star Wars is coming out, and that's, let's face it,
that's the unstoppable force right now. I don't I don't
eve think Star Wars is a movie anymore. I think
it's like a I don't even what. It's almost like
a need now. It's almost like on the mazows hierarchy

(57:08):
of needs. It's like Star Wars and then food and
shelter and feelings of safety. I mean, it is just
a phenom. I mean, and I see all these spinoffs
and I'm like, you know what, they could have one
hundred spinoffs. They could have movies come out until everybody
right now is passed and our great great grandchildrens to
watch them. And you know what, I don't think it's

(57:30):
ever gonna stop. If they could just keep finding a
new character to expand on, Like hey see that guy
in the cantina, Well that's you know, Rebulon six, and
he's gonna, you know, do something now, and it's all
just you know, it's it's just all the continuation of
this universe.

Speaker 5 (57:47):
Hey man, don't underrestimate. Don't underestimate Rebulon six man, that
guy's gotta going you know. Oh absolutely, Look, you know,
I mean it's human nature to yearn for entertainment. I
mean this has been true way before there have been
movies and television and all that. I mean, you know,
we want to be entertained, you know, so that will

(58:08):
always be there. But I do believe I agree with
you in the sense, you know, the way I see it,
I don't want the big blockbusters to go away, you know,
because you know, if you want to tell a an
epic story, like a Star Wars type of story, you know,
there are certain budgets needed. That's what I'm saying. You

(58:29):
can't make everything for you know, low budget. But I
don't think that every movie needs to be that. You know,
the problem, in my opinion, the problem is that, I mean,
good god, we have comedies now that cost sixty seventy
million to make. Dude, it's a comedy. As long as
you make people laugh, you're fine.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
You know. You know.

Speaker 5 (58:49):
Why Why is my question? So, you know, I think
it just I just think it needs to you know,
balance itself out sort of where you know, we still,
you know, I still want to see the big blockbusters
coming out, you know whatever, a few of them a
year and all that, but that should be a small segment.

(59:11):
The rest of it, you know, should be you know,
reasonable budgets and at the end of the day, it
all goes back to story. I actually I don't go
to the theater as much as I used to because, frankly,
when I look at you know, I look at some
of the movies, I'm like, I don't think it has

(59:31):
a knowing, like I said, knowing how story, the story
has suffered in a lot of movies. I just go,
you know what, I don't trust that this is going
to be a good story. So I just don't go,
and I wait until it's on not flake saying, you know,
then I give it a shot, and you know, sometimes
it's good, sometimes it isn't.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (01:00:00):
So if you make if you really focus on the
story and you and and the crucial part, which I
don't know why execs seem to have a problem with that.
If you hire a director because you think he or
she is good. Let them do their job, man, you know,
let them do their job. If they're not good, then
don't hire them in the first place. So, you know,

(01:00:22):
I think all that. You know, like I said, the
story needs the story needs to be number one. You know,
we're now at the time where we don't get wowed
anymore by by technology, by by CG and all that.
And you know, I saw the New I'm sure you
have two the new Batman versus Superman or Superman versus Batman,

(01:00:43):
you know whatever. The worder is a trailer, and uh,
you know, I'm more interested in the story, in the
conflict between them, not so much about the CG because
I know the CG will be fine. You don't have
to pimp it. You know, it's twenty fifteen. We're we're
able to do some amazing stuff with CG. So tell
me more about the story, you know, That's what I'm curious.

(01:01:05):
And I think a lot of studios make the mistake
where they show you all the CG, all the explosions,
blah blah blah, and you know, no offense. It starts
to look like a Michael Bay movie. You know, Uh yeah,
I mean you know, so yeah, like I said, it's uh, yeah,
I agree. I absolutely agree. I think on one hand,

(01:01:28):
it won't go away. But on the other hand, I
I do think certain things will change, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
It's I concur I think certain things will change because
you know, I mean we always talk about, you know,
theatrical releases too, and you know, there there was always
that discussion of you know, if you know, independent films
should try to go get a theatrical release. Now you
actually had a theatrical a theatrical screening, and I don't

(01:01:56):
know was that for one night or was that for
a couple.

Speaker 5 (01:01:57):
Of nights or yeah, it was it was one night.

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
Okay. Now, I mean, now do you feel because you
do this for one night? Then so do you feel
that that may have helped you or do you feel
that maybe next time you wouldn't do that again?

Speaker 5 (01:02:11):
Uh, that's a good question. I I do feel uh.
I mean, I'm happy with the turnout because we had
it on a Tuesday evening, rainy Tuesday in Vancouver, and
you know, I was able to get people out. So
that's an accomplishment considering I'm a I'm a nobody, no
name filmmaker. Now, for the next one, I don't think.

(01:02:36):
I don't think it has to happen. No, I I
don't think a theatrical release is crucial. I honestly, I
don't know if I'm going to do it for the
next one or not. For this one, I really wanted
to do it because I felt that I had a
certain momentum going, you know, and I felt that, Okay, this,
this could help, so let's just do it. And uh,

(01:03:00):
you know, like I said, I'm happy with the turnout
and all that. But I think we're now at the
time where, you know, including myself, like I said earlier,
I don't really you know. For example, you know, my
wife and I bought tickets for Star Wars obviously, like
a month ago. I would actually if I could stream
that sucker in my living room or my nice big

(01:03:23):
string TV, you know, in two weeks whenever it comes out,
I'd be gladly. I'd be happy to do that, you know.
I I you know, I don't care about seeing it
in the theater because, like I said, if I could
stream it here in the comfort of my own home
and have a good time and you know, popcorn and
all that, I'm cool with that. So I think, you know,

(01:03:45):
people's mindset has changed a lot when it comes to that.
I uh, In my opinion, your movie should be available
wherever it can be available, you know, sort of like
the Netflix model, because how people watch your stuff has
changed drastically. You know, I have I have a fifteen
year old cousin and I always like to use them

(01:04:06):
as a as a guinea pig. And you know, I
asked him and a couple of his buddies, you know. Okay,
so I was curious, do you guys care about cable?

Speaker 4 (01:04:16):
You know?

Speaker 5 (01:04:17):
And they're like, no, you know, we care about the
shows we watch. Okay, cool? So the shows you watch,
do you care about watching it on a TV or
how do you watch it? I'm like, I don't know.
I watch it however, I however, I want on my
phone on my tab blah blah blah. So you know,
there's no you know, I think with our generation and

(01:04:38):
certainly with the old generation, you know, the prime sort
of experience of watching a movie is obviously the theater
and then you know at home. Now with these guys, nah,
the only thing they do care about doing on the
big screen is gaming and you know, that's that you know,
they want on the big screen, but other than that,
you know they're okay with watching a movie on the
or show on their phone. So yeah, going back to

(01:05:02):
your question, I think it has helped and I'm happy
we did it. I'm not sure if I'm going to
do the next one, honestly, I'll be cause you know,
it might be two three years by the time we
make the next one, and who knows how much will change,
you know, how the landscape will change by then, you know,
hard to say.

Speaker 4 (01:05:22):
Yeah, that's true. And by the way, I actually looked
it up. As of this recording de Sember the seventh,
five thousand Canadian dollars equals thirty seven hundred and fifty
five cents US dollar. So there, yeah, there, there's that.
I wanted to look that up. So so now we
we have a thirteen hundred dollars surpflus now from filming.

(01:05:44):
But so you know, you ended up putting the movie
on VHX and it's available now. You you know, you
actually have a ton of extra footage on there, actually sorry,
bonuses on there. You have you know, you have an
audio commentary, you have a behind the scenes look you
have this special effects toil that you did. You have
your screenplay on there too, you know. Is there a reason,

(01:06:05):
you know, why you chose VHX over maybe putting it
on YouTube or any or you know, even trying to
get it on Netflix.

Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:06:13):
Well I haven't ruled out Netflix yet. So but the
reason I went with vh X I use them for
my first movie as well, and I just liked how
because they're still relatively you know, a relatively new company,
and I like how they're constantly improving their service.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:06:33):
I'm I don't get paid to do and say any
of this, you know, just my opinion, but I do
like that every once in a while they're like, hey,
you can have this feature. Now you have this feature.
So they seem to understand that the landscape is changing rapidly,
so they're you know, keeping up. And I just love
the fact that, you know, I can upload all my

(01:06:53):
stuff whatever I want. I can set the price, you know,
I mean, they take their cut from each transaction, but
they don't dictate me, you know, how much I should
sell a movie for for example, iTunes. They do tell
they do have their set prices last.

Speaker 4 (01:07:09):
Time I checked.

Speaker 5 (01:07:10):
Anyway, can be wrong about that. So and you know,
and you have all the stats in terms of who
downloaded or purchased your movie, rented your movie, whatever it is.
So that was really the main reason. Just control. You know,
at the end of the day, you know, I you know,
you get used to as an indie guy, you do
get used to a certain amount of control you have

(01:07:31):
over your project, right, and you know, you spend so
much time and energy, you know, making it, and you
know it would really suck that when it comes to distribution,
all that gets taken away from you, you know, which
is usually what does happen on So that was the
reason why I like a company like VHX. Now having

(01:07:55):
that said, you know, I, like I said earlier, I
wanted to be available everywhere, you know, and you know,
that's like I said, in my opinion, how we view
and consume entertainment has changed drastically. You know, I don't
have cable because I I you know, the entertainment I

(01:08:17):
watch is accessible via YouTube, via Netflix, you know, whatever
service it is, and that's good enough for me, man,
you know. So yeah, that was that was the main reason.
And yeah, going back to the uh the special features, Yeah,
I I always most of my film education also comes

(01:08:41):
from making off features on DVDs and Blu rays, right. So,
you know, when we moved to Canada in two thousand
and one, and you know, we that's when I started
watching Blue rays because they weren't available in Europe. And
when I saw, holy crap, there's an audio commentary. Dude,
I cannot watch the movie and the director is talking

(01:09:01):
about what I'm watching, you know, how he did it
and all that stuff, and it was it was, you know,
I was like, oh my god moment. So, you know,
except most of my education comes from that, and I
always feel I want to do the same.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:09:17):
It's I guess it's a it's a way of you know,
giving back if you want to call it that, you know,
because I feel, I feel the more there are indie filmmakers,
you know, the better it is for everyone, because all
of us will collectively sort of raise this industry to
a level where you know, we can actually make money

(01:09:38):
doing this. You know, it's not just Okay, let's put
my own money into this and you know you're never
going to see anything from it. So yeah, that's the reason.

Speaker 4 (01:09:51):
Yeah, and uh, you know, Jason Bruberger was saying, you know,
some of these distribution deals are just completely inane, you know,
and nobody in the right mind would would go for him.
I actually knew somebody who they actually made. I probably
put about ten thousand another movie.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,

Speaker 4 (01:10:20):
And they were trying to distribute it. And when the
time came, they only had one company that was willing
to pay them, and they were going to pay him
something ridiculous, like I think it was like a thousand
bucks or six hundred bucks, and they would have the
rights for the movie for five years to show the
movie in like some foreign country, and I think it

(01:10:42):
was like I think we even Cambodi or something. And
the filmmaker was like, what the hell kind of distribution
deal is this like? And they got full rights to
the movie too, so for those five years he couldn't
sell it to anywhere else. It was all about. So
it was really odd, and I don't know what they
ended up doing with it, but you know, I think
this is the you know, the future too, where we

(01:11:04):
if we did have a theatrical run with a film,
I think it should be it probably will end up
being available the same day or maybe the day after
on maybe a VHX or maybe you know of YouTube
or even a digital download directly from that person's site.
And you know, hey, listen, it's ten bucks and or
whatever the hell it might be, and you can get

(01:11:24):
the bare bones version. You can get this version. Then
you you know what Draft House Films does. Hey, look,
you can get the film, but then you also get
a T shirt and or if you want the next package,
you get a poster with it. In the next package,
you get the vinyl record with it. And you know,
I think stuff like that, the you know, having those
up selling packages and stuff are going to be the
future as well. And you know, and I think it's

(01:11:45):
just going to be a begin about is going to
be again, excuse me, about building that market, building that audience,
making sure you have a high quality project that you
can actually do with the resources you have, and you know,
maybe not shooting too high for the moon, and you know,
crowdfunding and you know, keep working that audience and you know,

(01:12:05):
seeing what you can come up with, and you know,
and just you know, and building from there. You know,
there's a there was a really good article about you know,
if you do build an audience for a film, you know,
what do you do with that audience after the film
is over? You just sort of say, hey, guys, uh,
well it's been fun. It's been a fun year, you know,
us building this. So that's one of the things too,

(01:12:26):
I think has to change is how people market films.
I think Facebook fan pages, honestly, starting a new one
for every film you do. I think it's gonna get
a little like ludicrous after a while, because I know
people who have like seven eight different Facebook pages for
different films they've done, and then they have to Then
there's that audience, and then there's this audience. But I
think maybe if you had it under one umbrella, or

(01:12:46):
maybe Facebook could change this, but or may if you
had it just for your production company. It's it's stuff
like that that I think are really gonna be key
to making sure that everyone still sees your stuff. And
but then again, you know, the email list is always
going to be key. That email list is critical because
you know, you know, all the social media stuff. We
can talk about it for days, but the fact is
it's rented space and they can change it without warning.

(01:13:09):
They can change it, they can do whatever they want
and they never have to tell us about it. Un
and they know, almost an explanation because after all, it's
a free product, and you know, they you know, they're
the ones putting on the money for it, and we're
just sort of renting that space out.

Speaker 5 (01:13:22):
Oh. Absolutely, absolutely, I mean going back to the whole
having multiple pages. Absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I
have my my mail list mailing list, and initially when
I when I put that together, I actually talked to
someone about that, and I a person who had his
own mailing list that I was subscribed to, and I

(01:13:43):
asked him what should I do? Should I have one
for this movie, for this blah blah? And he, to
his credit, said no, no, dude, have one, trust me.

Speaker 4 (01:13:51):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:13:51):
And so that's what I did my you know, I
treat my mailing list as a sort of like a
VIP area. You know, if you subscribe to it, you
will always be the first one to get you know, clips.
For example, if you go on the website project to
gen X, you can watch the first three minutes and
whatever it is forty seconds of the movie for free.

(01:14:14):
Right Well, that was available to my newsletter subscribers months ago, right,
so they were able to see it. And then you know,
whenever I have coupon's discounts and all that stuff, they
are the first ones to you know, find out about
it and not just about this movie. Then you know,
whenever I have videos for my YouTube channel, they are

(01:14:35):
the first ones to get notified. So you know that
that's my way of building an audience and you know,
rewarding them. And to me, that's really how, you know,
how we're going to rise in this, in this industry,
in this in the industry, because at the end of
the day, it all comes back to the fan base.

(01:14:58):
You know. You look a guy like Kevin's Smith another
good example, you know, who really has sort of cut
himself off from Holly like mainstream Hollywood in terms of filmmaking.
Who is you know, making more of his own stuff.
Well he's allowed, he's able to do that because he
has had almost twenty year career in Hollywood.

Speaker 4 (01:15:21):
Right.

Speaker 5 (01:15:22):
Well, I don't have that, you know, so I have
to I have to adapt a slightly different model, which
you know, hopefully it's not going to take me twenty
years to get there. But you know, you look at
you look at YouTube guys, which that's sort of the
model I'm adapting. You know, film right is a great
YouTube channel, uh where you know, you talk all about

(01:15:44):
film related stuff and they have their fan base. And
you know, that's the approach I'm taking, which is, Okay,
this is the stuff I do. I talk about film
related stuff, whether it's gear, whether it's techniques, all that stuff.
Subscribe to my newsletter. You know, you'll you'll get a
book as free, which is I think it's called how

(01:16:05):
to Make a Movie in your Own Living Room, which
talks about my first movie. And then you know you'll
be the first one to get all my info, oh
my sorry, all my promo stuff and and all that stuff.
And you know, it's it's working. I mean, it's it's
it's definitely growing, and I'm happy with it. You know,
it's certainly not there where I wanted to be at

(01:16:27):
this point, but yeah, it's growing. So that's that's the
main thing, and that's how we have to look at it.
I know a lot of filmmakers, uh, you know, young
filmmakers are generation who are still trying to adopt the
old model. You know, who aren't as active online, who
don't have their own fan base and all that, and look, everyone,

(01:16:53):
you know, there are people every year who succeed with
the old model. You know, you you write a script,
you it gets noticed by the people, you get your funding.
That's all great, but that's a very small percentage, you know,
And I don't want to build, you know, put all
my hopes and efforts into something that ultimately, yeah, might

(01:17:14):
never be seen by anyone, you know. And that's that's
also why I have, you know, an issue with film
festivals these days, where you know, I love film festivals.
That's all great, but the reality is, you know, ten
years ago you might film festival X may have received
two hundred submissions. Now it's two million, you know, or

(01:17:34):
who knows, however, So yeah, it's a lot more difficult
to stand out. And I, you know, I just think
by building your own audience, by you know, having people
dedicated to you and what it is that you were doing,
will in the long run help you. And there's a
lot of examples of that where you know, it works

(01:17:57):
on YouTube and on online in general.

Speaker 4 (01:18:00):
Right, Yeah, it's very true. And you know, one of
the other things that I've noticed is is that once
somebody gets a following on YouTube, they tend to go
right to Patreon and they start a Patreon account to
get some you know, to have people actually you know,
fund them, whether it be five ten, you know, fifteen
dollars a month. I actually was researching Patreon and some

(01:18:22):
of them, some of those channels are pulling down a
pretty good amount of money per month. I'm talking like thirteen,
fifteen thousand per month. Now, I don't know, this is
what I always want to have a Patreon. I don't
know how that divvys up between the members or if
that's just all has to go towards art or if
they're quitting their day jobs, and who the hell knows,
because I guess it's a case by case situation. But

(01:18:45):
you know, but I mean, you know, so there's a
lot of options now, which is a good thing. You know,
it's not a war of eye it's not a war
anymore to get your film made. It's a war of
eyeballs and ears. So you know, you just have to
sort of chug along and figure out how Again, like
we were saying when we started, you know, how how
are you going to stand out? You know, how are
you going to stand out from the pack? And you

(01:19:05):
know how are you going to make sure that you know,
people know who you're you know, as soon as people
put your movie, and how are they going to know
it's your movie? How are they going to know your style?
And I think it's you know, I think that's a
challenge now is finding a voice, because I know I
I struggle to find my voice sometimes it's even in writing,
even you know, when it's just me with a memo
pad and a pen, because I still do old school.

(01:19:27):
I try to disconnect from technology when I'm writing. I don't.
I I save the laptop and the and the other
stuff for later on, but for now it's just you know,
a pen and a paper, you know. But h so
you know that that's you know, I now I lost
track now I'm talking about pens of papers. But but no,
I think you know that's you know, there are these

(01:19:49):
options out there now, and you know, I think a
lot of filmmakers are trying to figure out, you know,
how to actually how to actually make it work for them.
As what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 1 (01:19:59):

Speaker 5 (01:20:08):
Oh absolutely, and look, by no means have I figured
it out. I just want to say that I figured
out a lot, like I said, how to make a movie,
but when it comes to distribution, that's still you know,
that's a beast on its own. And you know, on
one hand, you just have to understand that things are

(01:20:28):
changing constantly, you know, and the things we talk about
right now, you know, a month from now, there might
be another service that comes out that just wol blows
it out of the water, right, So you have to
be open to change. You can't be stuck in the
old ways because you know, and I understand, the traditional

(01:20:49):
way of making and distributing a movie has been there
for what sixty years, sixty plus years more than that,
So I get it, you know, it was it's that's
that's a that's a significant time, significant time in you know,
in that industry. But much like when the first digital
cameras came out ten ish years ago, you know, things

(01:21:15):
have changed and things are changing and you need to
understand that. And I get why a Steven Spielberg type
doesn't really care about it because he doesn't have to,
you know, but a Bobi Andullah Big type has to,
you know, because I I don't have any of that
of of what Steve Spielberg has, So yeah, be open

(01:21:37):
to change and simply embrace it. And you know, understand that,
you know, making a movie nowadays is not actually that
difficult anymore. You know, it's difficult, but not as much.
It's really what do you do to get it noticed,
to get it seen?

Speaker 3 (01:21:58):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:21:59):
That that's really what we need to tackle. And that's
what I'm constantly trying to figure out. You know, I'm
not worried about my next movie how to make it.
I mean, of course I'm not going to be an
arrogant prick and you'd be like, oh, I got it
all figured out. I don't, you know, But my bigger
concern is, Okay, how do I get it seen? How

(01:22:20):
do I frankly make money? You know, you have to
make money off of it, because, like I said, you
how else you're going to keep going and make more movies,
you know, So that's a challenge. And but the more
services come out like Patreon, like VHX and all that,
it makes me feel good. You know, I want an
explosion of those services because eventually we'll figure out something

(01:22:43):
that is sustainable within that.

Speaker 4 (01:22:46):
You know, Yeah, and that's you know, that's true too,
because you know, making money or making a profit on
this is again it's how you make your next film,
unless you if you go go in and make a
movie and it's the goal is just for experience or
what have you, and you spend like two thousand bucks
and you're just like, look, I'm gonna put up on YouTube.

(01:23:07):
I don't maybe this will give me some hits, maybe
give me some subscribers, but I'm not gonna do the
for the you know, to make a profit or try
to sell this, then that's fine that, you know, but
if you're serious about making this, you know, as a profit,
you know, makeing it profitable, you have to actually have
a business plan. You have to think this way. You know.
You can't just sort of go in and say, well,

(01:23:27):
I hope things work out, you know, because eventually someone's
got to come along. And this is a story I'll
say for another time, but I have a friend of
mine and he had the attitude and finally somebody, a
big distributor came to him and actually asked him for
those materials, those business materials, those accounting materials and everything else,
and he was like, I don't have anything. I have
no I can't give you the budget. I can't give

(01:23:50):
you this, I can't give you that. And there's a
couple of things they asked him for and eventually they
they just sort of walked. Very interesting story. I mean,
I'll tell you some time or I'll bring him want
to tell it. But but you know, like you said,
there's a lot of options out there, and you know,
but yeah, we've been talking for about, you know, about
an hour twenty now, so you know, you know, in closing,

(01:24:11):
is there anything you wanted to maybe say, any final
thoughts or closing thoughts you want to out of this conversation, you.

Speaker 5 (01:24:17):
Know, just onan obviously, thank you for having me. I
really appreciate it, and you know, A love what you're doing.
Keep doing it.

Speaker 4 (01:24:23):
We need guys like you, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:24:25):
I just want to just generally tell everyone, you know,
if you want to make a movie, make it.

Speaker 4 (01:24:31):
Do it.

Speaker 5 (01:24:32):
Obviously, be smart about it, think about all those things
we've been talking about, but just do it. Man, Life's
way too short. And like I said, if you're smart
about it, you can do all kinds of things. Also,
if you are curious about my film, go project eugenics
dot com. You can rent it or you can purchase
just a movie, or there's a Filmmaker Edition which has

(01:24:54):
the making of features we talked about. And also I
have a promo quote that I created just for the
listeners here. If you get the Filmmaker Edition and just
punching in the coupon section Punching podcast, and you'll get
thirty percent off. So it's actually for you Americans, it'll
be even better. Oh no, wait, I'm trying to think,

(01:25:15):
think is it in US or Canadian? Anyway, it'll be
either better. It will be the things, So yeah, it'll
be It's fourteen ninety nine and then you'll get thirty
percent off of that for the Filmmaker Edition. So and yeah,
if anyone has ever any questions, just you know, ask me.
Uh you can email me at info at dullabic Studio

(01:25:36):
dot com du l A B I C. Or just
look me up online. I'm very easily stockable online.

Speaker 4 (01:25:46):
So yeah, yeah, I found just so uh here. Yeah. Uh,
you know, I want to say thank you so much
for coming on boy on uh but we almost see.
Thanks you for coming on and uh, you know again,
I wish you the best of luck, you know, with
not with PROJECTU Jencks, whatever you're doing, the whatever you're
doing after Project Eugenics and all your future projects.

Speaker 5 (01:26:06):
Thank you, my friend, and again thank you for having
me and absolutely keep on rocking, my friend.

Speaker 4 (01:26:12):
Oh, thank you for the same, buddy.

Speaker 3 (01:26:14):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
Forward slash. Thank you so much for listening to guys.
As always, keep on writing no matter what.

Speaker 1 (01:26:29):
I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
Screenwriting dot tv.

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