February 20, 2025 • 60 mins
It was 1980 when three lives were terribly impacted during a Texas highway UFO encounter. Joining to discuss this famously debated UFO case is independent UFO researcher, Curt Collins, who has scrutinised and thoroughly researched the Cash-Landrum story. While this is a fascinating mystery, it was also a terribly traumatic event for the witnesses. The physical effects of the encounter with a diamond shaped craft are documented, but is it enough for the skeptic to believe their story? Curt Collins certainly does. https://www.blueblurrylines.com/2018/02/the-original-cash-landrum-case-file.html
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Rate, Review, subscribe, like, comment, and click the YouTube Notification Bell so you don’t miss a show.
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Coffee & UFOs is available on all podcast platforms.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
However you are and whenever you are, welcome back everyone
to coffee and UFOs.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Two of my favorite things.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I've got a really great guest on tonight and a
really great topic, like a classic UFO case. Everything that
you could want in a UFO case. Helicopters, a UFO,
real witnesses who are on the record, there is documentation
to back up their report, and you had a thorough
(00:41):
amount of investigation, including lawsuits.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
With the government.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
It's one of the best documented cases out there. And
that's the nineteen eighty cash Landrum UFO incident. With me
is Kurt Collins. He is a independent investigator and the
author of Blue Blurry Lines website. That's blue blurrylines dot com.
If you're not familiar with it, it's a fantastic site,
(01:07):
especially if you really want to look at these subjects
from a rational and objective point of view. It doesn't
mean that this isn't an exciting and mystery mysterious case.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It really is. It's one of the best. But we
love here on.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Coffee UFOs taking a objective approach to all of these
and nuts and bolts if you will. Although you all
know that I'm open to the metaphysical as well, but
tonight Kurt's going to really guide us through. So I
want to say thank you to Kurt in just a
moment for taking the time to come on here, and
thank you to the ONEX Network for rebroadcasting this podcast
(01:45):
every Thursday night and Friday morning. I am back and
forth a lot with the social media platforms that I use,
So I will say this, if you really want to
keep up with what is going on with the show,
show upcoming, the programs, guests, it's all going to be
(02:05):
for sure on Instagram. On occasion, yeah, I'll post something
on X or Blue Sky or Facebook or what have you.
But the one place that I will be consistent and
have been consistent is Instagram.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
There's just so many, so many platforms that it's you know,
it's time consuming.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
And I'm not sure all y'all are in on Blue
Sky yet and a lot of you guys are leaving X,
so I'm not really sure where we're going with this,
but all your feedback will be appreciated. Let me know
where you will be and you can follow me on
Instagram at Coffee and UFO's podcast. So tonight's Case the
(02:46):
cash Landroo of Case Betty and Vicki are no longer
with us, but Kolby is and he has come out
in years after this case for interviews and shared his
story as an adult. What I'm gonna do right now
is just play a very short clip, uh, so you
(03:07):
can actually see the real people that were to discussing tonight.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
It makes it more tangible and more real.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
We had been driving out this country road, which it
is very desolate area, and all of a sudden we've
seen this object.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
And this object come down almost to the tree jobs
almost ahead of us, and I screamed for Baby to stop,
and I think if she hadn't have stopped, then we
went on under it, we would have burned up.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Well, I just feeling to look up through the sky
to look around a little bit more in a southern object,
it looked like a diamond.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So, Kobe, if for whatever reason is watching this video, Kobe,
I'd love to meet you and induce you to the
coffee UFOs a platform and to have a conversation with you,
and tonight I think you'll appreciate everyone the conversation we
have with Kurt Collins. So, Kurt, welcome to Coffee, New Foods, cheers,
(04:11):
how are you.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
Yeah, it's a great case, very you know, it's one
of the things I focused on early on when I
became interested again with in UFOs as an adult, and
this is something you can really dig into. And I
kind of recommend anybody focus on a case if they're
interested in UFOs and to just to really see what
you can find out about it, what's really documented, and
(04:36):
not read the second hand accounts and summaries if you
can get to the original documentation. And that's what I
really have tried to do investigating the case.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Right, So, can you give us an overall summary of
the case encounter and of course after the encounter we
can talk more about, you know, what proceeded.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
Sure. So it was December twenty ninth, nineteen eighty. Vicky
Landerm and her grandson which he had custody of, and
Betty Cash went out to you know, the school was out.
They wanted to VICKI like to play Bengo, so they
were going to go go play Bengo. And they didn't
(05:20):
realize that being between Christmas in New York's eve, the
few places around were closed for the holidays. So instead
they went to a diner and had a meal, and
then they lived in Huffman, Texas. And they'd gone to
New Caney as far as New Canye looking which which
(05:42):
is and both of these places are not that far
from Houston. And on their way back to to Dayton,
they were on this not a deserted country road, but
it was sparsely populated near Huffman, Texas. And they saw
a light and that's uh, and it reginally. They thought
(06:04):
it maybe it was a planet distant plane, and it
came over the roadway in front of him, and there
was an intermittently was it was almost it was almost
like it was exhaust over the roadway, and they were
afraid it would burn them if they came any close
to it, so they stopped and we're looking at it
(06:25):
was described as being as large as a water tower,
and it was it was immensely bright. The lady witnesses
initially said they couldn't couldn't tell what it was, and
they they stopped to look got out briefly. Betty stayed
out the longest, but Kobe was really frightened by it
and he went back inside. It was it was it
(06:48):
made the kind of a mechanical noise they described like
a wishing of of of air brakes something like that.
So you know, it did seem to be some kind
of a mission. But Kolbe was the only one who
who really could provide a description of it, and he
said it was like an elongated diamond. But you know,
(07:11):
they could see no markings on it or anything, and
it was he was basically blinding.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
So so when we when we see these interviews where
Betty and Vicky describe the craft, are they are they
basing their description off of what Colby saw?
Speaker 6 (07:29):
I think so. And one thing that was strange about
the cases. Each each witness kind of had a different account,
but not radically different. For example, uh, you know later
the ladies saw helicopters. Is that the object finally moved away,
but they they they described it as initially they must
(07:51):
have been distant helicopters because they couldn't tell whether they
were planes or helicopters. But Colby's version of the stroy
he says that he saw helicopters the whole time. So
it's hard to fit all that together. You know, it
was an exciting series of events, and you know there's
always differences and what the witnesses will described, Well.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
That'sn't no different than than you know, witnesses seeing a
car accident from different angles or different personality types.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The way you describe.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Something, you'll you'll notice one element that another person doesn't.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
That's true. And sometimes witnesses would disagree on the number
of people involved. So it's it's you know, a lot
of it's what they're focused on, you know. And in
a case like this, you know, some some people witness
the UFO and there's a state of wonderer and you know,
they're wondering what the object is, and you know, it's
(08:43):
it's a fascinating thing. In this case, there was a
sense of danger and panic. In fact, uh uh. Vicky
Lantern in particular felt like it was the end of
the world. I mean, this was the biblical ending of
the world and fire and and you know, she she
was a religious person and she was trying to call
him Kobe by telling him that God would protect him.
And and Colby in particular was frightened and she you know,
(09:09):
he got back in the car. She was afraid he
was going to run off. He was just you know,
she said, he was hysterical. And Betty was outside watching it.
Longer than the others, and Vicky was calling for it
to get back into the car, and eventually she did.
You know, it was shortly afterwards it moved off. There
are a lot of parts to this besides the mentioned
(09:30):
the fire, and we don't know exactly what produced the
heat that they felt, but they felt like, you know,
it was like heat from a bonfire. It was. It
was intense, and you know, it was say, like one
hundred feet away from him, but they still felt this
pretty intensely. Another part of the story is that at
(09:51):
some point, I think it's when they when the car
was stopped, Vicky grabbed the dashboard and she said that
she left her hands, her fingers left impressions in the dashboard. Now,
whether that was anything to do with the heat or
just the strength of you know, her excitement, we're not
real sure about that.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
But well, I was gonna say it was a it
was a cutlass, right, old and real cutlass.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I think it was the car, right, you know. And
I remember some of the.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Interiors of those cars were that that kind of plastic.
It wasn't a horrid plastic always, It kind of had
a you could almost make an impression if he pressed
hard enough, and so I imagine if it did get
hot enough, you could make an impression and it might
actually recover once it cooled. Has anyone considered that, and
that would explain, you know, why you wouldn't see an
(10:39):
impression later.
Speaker 6 (10:41):
I agree with your impression of that. I don't think that.
I don't think that that's a say, like a supernatural
element of the case necessarily. It's just just one of
the physical features that have been mentioned.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Something that yeah, good.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
I don't know if it was mentioned in the original account,
but later on Betty described that there was a beeping
during the incident and it was kind of an intermittent shrill,
really high pitched noise, and so I don't know if
that was you know, we don't know the origin of that.
That's that's just one of the strange things.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Well, that's another instance where one witness notices something that
the others don't. But that doesn't mean it didn't she
didn't hear it, right, I mean, especially when your attention
is so distracted on such a disruptive event, I can
imagine her maybe hearing something that the others didn't.
Speaker 6 (11:39):
Well, and you know, as far as the differences between
the witnesses. Betty was she was more fascinated by the thing,
whereas there, you know, Vicki and Kobe were terrified. Uh
and uh. Once things once it lifted up and so
it was sort of the diamond shape it. Vicky described
(12:02):
it as turning over and then and then flying away
very slowly, and it didn't take off like a jet,
so you know, that's that's kind of puzzling, you know,
there's the whole flight performance. It was strange. And she
thought that they thought that it was that it might fall.
So whatever the object was, they thought it was kind
of in distress and maybe it recovered and flew off.
(12:24):
And at that point the helicopters followed and they continued
their drive, and then as they drove they encountered again
by by a cemetery or well, I don't know if
the cemetery is the right. It was a church property
and I think it had a number of things on it.
But at that point they stopped again and that's where
(12:47):
they counted the helicopters, and Kolbe said he counted twenty
three of them, and Vicki admitted that they might have
caught counted some of them more than once, but still
we can assume that there were a large number of
helicopters and they were pursuing the object. Once that passed,
(13:07):
they drove on and as they passed through Huffman and
were leaving, they were still able to see the object
and the helicopters and claimed even on the drive which
was I think about twenty miles to back to their
home of Dayton, they were able to see helicopters in
the air, so they were under the impression there were
still helicopters coming. So it had to you know, if
(13:30):
we except that there were really helicopters there, it seems
to have been a military operation.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
The on screen we put a representation of the craft.
Can you describe what that representation is?
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Well, this is Christian Lambright and he interviewed personally Vicky
Landham and Betty Cash over the phone, and based on
their testimony, he did this and so the way he
ripped was there the UFO is there. There's a diamond
shape there, but the brilliance is obscuring it, so you know,
this is you know, and based on the color, this
(14:09):
was as accurate representation as he could he could make
with the of the encounter.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Now, the interesting thing is we've seen this kind of
almost white gray blue representation of the diamond, but whenever
I hear them in interviews, they seem to be more
gray metallic. So how did we get representations that show
white on the craft?
Speaker 6 (14:35):
When it took a while from for the incident to
be investigated, and John Schusler investigated it after Betty she
was She became sick after the incident and was hospitals
for about two weeks, went home briefly and was in
the hospital for about another two weeks. And it was
(14:57):
only during that second stay that the fact that she'd
been involved in some kind of UFO counter came out
because she didn't. She thought it was so strange that
no one would believe her, and she didn't initially according
to the witnesses, Vicky Lantern said that they thought that
the irritation and the redness and the skin that they
(15:18):
felt was maybe due to wind chapping. They'd been out
in the you know, the it wasn't a pritically cold
in Texas, but it was you know, say thirty or
forty degrees, and they had flu like symptoms. But Betty's
symptoms were much worse and she had the skin irritation,
and during her second hospital stay she lost some of
(15:41):
her hair and it was a real mystery to the doctor.
There's they were able to associate to give a diagnosis,
and they tested her blood. They found no trace of
radiation and just it was just very puzzling. Couldn't couldn't
determine what could have caused it. So there she is
(16:02):
shortly after her hospital stay, and you can see how
the extensive hair loss.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
The sense of hair loft.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Some people have said that it was alopecia and it
was just just a coincidental occurrence.
Speaker 6 (16:23):
We're not able to prove from the medical records with
the limited access we have to him that the UFO
caused this. And some people that are completely skeptical as say, well,
maybe Betty had been a heart patient, she had other
medical problems, especially later. I mean, she was fifty seven
(16:44):
fifty two at the time of the encounter, and Vicky
was fifty seven, and it's not uncommon for people to
have health problems, and it could be that since she
was suffering health problems, you know, is it possible, well,
that the UFO counter was an invention, you know that
(17:05):
that's one scenario, and there's as much proof for that
as there is any other element of the case.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
So the suspicion is that they were exposed to maybe
some kind of ionizing radiation, right, or some electromagnetic radiation,
because my understanding with electromagnetic radiations that it could actually
affect you and being and not be traceable later on.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
That is that correct.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
If it were ionizing radiation, that that would have been proven.
And the Texas Department of Health was brought in many
months later and they investigated the scene, and here we
have one of the things that's that's peculiar about the
reporting of the incident, makes it sound as if they
(17:59):
knew precisely where it happened, but they were unable to
tell the Texas Department of Health just anything beyond the
general area. They investigated as best they could, and no
trace of behinonizing radiation was found. But if it was
something like electromagneated radiation or pulse microwaves or something like that,
(18:23):
it would wouldn't register that way. So it's a real
mystery if if it was caused by something that the
UFO omitted, that why it would cause the symptoms that
it did, Because it was several different things, you know,
the gastrointestinal distress that was produced, affluent like symptoms that
(18:44):
the sunburn like symptoms, crritation, yeah, and lesions underscan you
know number of things that just just don't add up.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Too many things happening at the same time, so you
can't just go, hey, it's a coincidence they have all
these health problems suddenly pop up. How quickly did the
did the was the onset of the of these issues.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
As it's been reported it was, It was pretty much immediate.
Betty said she felt bad driving on the way home
and she just dropped Kolbe and Vickie off and and
went back and said she had a splitting headache. And
the next day she was too sick to get up,
and you know, she and she just lay and she
wasn't actually in a comba, but she felt so unwell
(19:33):
she was unable to get up and really take care
of herself. And uh, when Vickie checked in on her,
she brought her she she found her in bad enough shape.
She took her to her home and cared for her
there for a while. And then on the third day afterwards,
she had her checked into the hospital and you know.
That's that's when the hospital stay began.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, so we're talking about within within an hour or so,
she had these onset of symptoms, right, Okay, So then
there they're struggling with with these health problems and that
that's what kind of spurred them to pursue more information
about what happened to them. And the only clue that
(20:19):
they had outside of the strange objects was the helicopters,
and that's kind of what they you know, went with, right.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
It was, Yeah, it was. It was. The incident was
the twenty ninth, and there was to stay in the
hospital and it was really about February second when the
it was revealed. As the story is told, the doctor said,
you know, I wish I knew what happened to you,
what caused this? And and Vicki and Colby were visiting
(20:48):
and Kolby said he thought it was the UFO and
the doctor said UFO. And so it was that point
is when the story was told, and the doctor became
very interested in that and insisted that they give a
written report of what had happened to him. And that
(21:09):
was the first say UFO documentation on the case. And
then later Vicky contacted the local police, and he didn't
know what to do about it. And they happened to
have a card for the National UFO Reporting Center, which
is still around, although under new management. It was run
by Robert Gribble MHM in those days, and uh Vicky called,
(21:36):
gave a report. I have a recording that on the side.
It's a short phone call that she doesn't go into detail,
and what she really insists is that she wants to
get help for her friend Betty because she's worried that
she may die of the condition she has, so she
wants some answers, and she doesn't know the first thing
about UFOs, and it's just really a loss about what
(21:58):
to do. And so at that point, Grebel passes the
information onto APRO, which was their aeri wol phenomena research organization,
and you know, they were based in I hope it
was Arizona, Scottsdale, somewhere in there that area, and they
although they had members all over, they didn't really have
(22:19):
anyone investigating the Houston area. And it was after it
was kind of fumbled for a while before things got going.
And well, the first the person who got hold of
the information rather than the leaders of the organization. He
(22:39):
got in contact with him and he sold the a
tip to the Weekly World News and so really the
first person to investigate it was a reporter from that
newspaper with a tabloid. Now at that time, you know,
the Weekly World News eventually became a parody and had
(23:00):
ridiculous stories. At this time it was just a typical
tabloid with sensational stories, but they actually were based on
real things that happened. All the reporting wasn't always so accurate,
but you know, from what we can tell, they did
a reasonably good job on investigating this case. They took
photographs of the witnesses and published a short, short, although
(23:24):
sensationally titled account of the story. And after that local
reporter covered it in the Conrad Courier. And so this
is this is into like by this time early about
this time in February, but around the twentieth or so.
And then eventually Vicky Betty's released from the hospital and
(23:48):
she is given the number to John Schusler, who is
the deputy director of mouf On but his day job
is a with the Johnson's Space Center. He's a he
works he's a contractor for McDonald douglas working on the
spatial program, and his private interest is UFO is not
(24:10):
part of his job. And he was.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Out and open about it too while working on NASSA.
Speaker 6 (24:18):
To the degree his custom license plates set UFO nut.
So he was very very open about it, and even.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
They must have driven the debunkers and skeptics crazy.
Speaker 6 (24:30):
And uh but but yeah, so he had an organization
called oh boy, let's see what was visits the initials vehicle.
Oh gosh. Basically their premise was that that that UFOs
were were not so much unidentified there there were spacecraft
and their whole thing was trying to figure out the
(24:52):
engineering of UFOs and how they how they worked. So he,
you know, he had an interest in Some people would
say it bias. He had. He had been Betty contacted
him and independently APRO eventually had forwarded information about the
(25:13):
case to him. But this is when I said, bumble,
this is it was just not it was not investigated immediately,
it was not handed to the people who should have
had it, and it was not promptly investigated. It's it's
kind of unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, So did you say earlier that was Apro that
tipped off the newspaper.
Speaker 6 (25:35):
The Weekly World News.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, because I'm just surprised.
Speaker 6 (25:40):
Well Bill if Bill English was a person that did it,
and it sounds it sounds awful. But if you look
at the reporting in the seventies and eighties, there was
a lot of relationship between particularly the National Inquirer, and
they had a blue ribbon panel of UFO experts and
there was a there was a good relationship. So it's
(26:03):
it's not as.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
For example, well, I's gonna say, for example, APRO worked
with National Inquiry during the Travis Walton Turkey Springs case too,
and actually to their benefit because because of that sharing
of information, they're actually able to fund medical test testing
or you know, light detective testing and that sort of thing.
So there is a positive aspect to that, right, that relationship.
Speaker 6 (26:32):
It it could have it could have really been destructive,
but it didn't really work out. And that's that way
in this case. And and one of the one of
the respected researches he's no longer with is Bob Pratt
work for the National Enquirer, and he actually worked with
John Schusler later on and wrote the forward to the book.
(26:55):
So the tabloid part is not as as poisonous as
it might sound, although they did do some kind of
slipshot reporting on it. One thing the National required did
do You mentioned the investigation They paid for doctor Leo
(27:15):
Sprinkle to do hypnot regression on VICKI later and you know,
trying to probe to see if there was anything of
any other parts that she could be retarded under hypnosis.
There were a couple of things, and I don't think
we can reliably add them to the case. She said
(27:37):
that she described the spell of a lighter fluid, which
you know, some people have you know, thought that could
be you know, fuel of some kind, whether it was
the helicopters or the UFO. And then she mentioned blue lights,
which had never been mentioned anywhere else in connection with
(28:00):
the UFO. And and and later and later on because
some of the UFOs in the area seen that the
people had reported with lights. I think that's where the
lights that were depicted, and that that second illustration that
that you showed came from that, you know, it was
it was it was from the witnesses, but it was
(28:22):
not the original testimony. So I feel like that was
an additional element that we cannot consider well. It's not
from the primary source.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
So it's a composite.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
And also we don't we don't know if that craft
appeared differently physically. You know, we don't know what the
mechanism of of that craft was, of its skin, you know,
how it could light up or not light up. So
maybe it did lighten up for some reason, you know,
or just looked lighter from a different angle, depending on
(28:53):
the point of view of the witnesses.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
That's certainly a possibility.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
When you mentioned on the road, when they want to
go back and find the location, the idea there was
that there would be a kind of a cinge mark
or something in the road that they could locate, and
they couldn't find it. I remember there was an h
UFO Hunters episode some years ago where they went to
(29:20):
the approximate location. They took core samples to see if
there was a newly paved road over that spot, and
they couldn't find any evidence of that. And even in
the records, they couldn't find any records of a newly
paved road.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Do you think that there's a kind of a hole
in that part of the story.
Speaker 6 (29:41):
There's a there's a local legend that after the incident,
and depending on where you're hear it, it was the
next day that trucks came in, ripped up the road,
holded away and it was repaid. Well, that's not the
way it happened. It was about a year and a
half after the incident. I think it maybe only half
(30:02):
of the road was repaved initially, so that that that
just doesn't really add up. But you know, when they
did revisit the scene, John Schuster first interviewed Betty by phone,
then saw her the next day, and then it was
a week before he was you know, because he had
a day job. It was a week before he was
(30:24):
able to visit Vicky and Colbe and take their testimony.
And it was only Vicky that went along to recreate
the drive and find a piece of road that where
she thought it had happened and estimate the distance. And
(30:47):
you know, they measured that you came up with about
one hundred and twenty feet. I think I think they
estimated the us UFO itself as being about ninety feet
long something like that. But one of the things dealing
with the authority of a NASA scientist, the Winds has
(31:07):
put a lot of stock and what he said, and so,
you know, when he measured it rather than the estimate
that they had originally given, and you know, they paste
it off. You know, they would accept his figure. And
when he would sort of do a homogenized version of
the story and include Colby's diamond shaped description, the ladies
(31:28):
themselves started describing it as diamage, whereas originally they couldn't
even guess at the shape of it. So the investigator
influenced the way the story was retold.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Interesting, Okay, So what I think is interesting about the
craft the way you say, I think Vicky described it
as sort of tipping on its side before it started
moving away. I was speaking to markd' antonio on the
podcast Life last week and he was, you know, theorizing
about you know, protect potential physics and engineering that where
(32:07):
craft could you know, move in the way that these
U A P and UFOs are witnessed. And it was
interesting because he drew a parallel with Bob Blazar's description
of some of the crafts and how like that they
would be in this kind of odd angle when they
(32:28):
would accelerate or change direction. And I just think that's
an interesting little tidbit because if the craft indeed was
kind of upright and then tipped and then moved. Uh
that that that doesn't doesn't track with anything based on
the aerodynamics, at least at the time, within the technologies
(32:50):
that we had.
Speaker 6 (32:50):
Right we we I can't even imagine what this object
might have been how you know, even even if it
was some you know, sort of alien spacecraft, it seems
like it was it was flying, you know, point first
when they when they saw it, and then over the
(33:12):
roadway when possibly was in distress. But you know, what
was his flame was that part of it didn't use
that when it flew, was that you know, some sort
of jet like thing to help stabilize it, you know,
I I just can't imagine that. I mean, it's just a
lot of a lot of UFO cases they involved bizarre
(33:34):
flight characteristics or behavior, you know. And then the fact
that was over the road. It didn't need to be there,
you know, it's almost as if it was there for
their benefit, you know, if it was a stage of event. Yeah,
it's just it could have been overfield, which it which
there's no no answer to that.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Do you think it's fair to draw parallel between that
UFO through the Lanismore nineteen sixty four Socorro, New Mexico
UFO with the flames coming out of the bottom.
Speaker 6 (34:07):
It does make you wonder about that, and it's it's
slightly similar in that respect. It's that's not not a
very common element. UFOs don't generally appear to blast off
in any way, and this one didn't exactly, but they
had the flames that are some you know, similar to exhaust.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah, but you're right, but it's not like it's a
rocket where there's flames in the boom. That's not how
it works. It seems to be some kind of stabilizing
technology of some sort. Uh. Yeah, we have a good
question here from jingis I have to include said the
whistleblower that was on News Nation discussing the egg retrieval.
(34:51):
The eggcraft that was retrieved mentioned how other crew members
and helicopter passengers got sick after transport the unknown objects
in crates. Well, what is your take on his story.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
Jake Barker, I just don't have enough information about that.
But that does raise an interesting question in the cash
lantern story, because if the witness were close enough, which
were about one hundred and twenty feet, the helicopters must
have been that close to it, and there had to
(35:30):
have been a minimum of three people. And these these
were mostly Chunook helicopters, huge, huge, and loud by the way,
and if there were as many as they say, you
would think that you know, the whole countryside would have
heard them as they moved over. Yeah, but so and
(35:53):
you know there there must have been dozens of people,
and we have no record of any of them being sick.
But we have no record if the helicopters themselves or
or any of the crew men. And uh, that's a
that's a big part of the mystery. And that's that's
why the the the army got involved because they were
the ones that generally fly these helicopters.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Of course, you you'd expect to be army medical records
or or whatever military medical records of some sort. But again,
I guess if you're a covert operation, uh that you
don't want to know that peopled that exists, then you
wouldn't really have medical records, would you. You would have procedures,
but no records.
Speaker 6 (36:37):
And that that could be and the fact that the helicopters,
the helicopters, that was the first thing that that really
anyone tried to track down the dig Donovgan from the
Weekly World News, John Schusler and his team UH and
then also Alan Hendry from QBOS with the deputy director
(36:58):
that he was. He was given a contract by the
Fund for UFO Research to pursue the helicopters, and he
did an investigation on that and and talked to the
witness themselves and found, you know, found nothing to support it.
There there had been limited helicopter activity and area and
(37:19):
basically none at the time because of the Christmas break.
They were stripped down to a skeleton crew, so there
shouldn't have been anyone flying, and if it was a
special unit, you know, even they were had limited resources.
So it just it just didn't add up. It's caused
some people to conclude, who find the story credible, that
(37:42):
maybe there were not physically helicopters, that this was some
sort of projection, a defense mechanism, whether it was a
psychic projection or a holographic projection to to disguise or
did deflect interest in the UFO. You know, I find
(38:04):
that pretty wild. But you know, there's there's nothing, there's
nothing really to grab onto and so.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
It's actually easier to believe the government would just be
covering up you know, twenty three you know helicopters that
and I know Colby said they're roughly At one point
he thought he maybe counted twenty three, but considered considering
the situation and if indeed they're moving around, I could
see how he could miscount. But still, I mean, what
(38:35):
are we looking at at a minimum, you know, eight
or ten helicopters that he may have seen, and that's
that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That's a big operation.
Speaker 6 (38:44):
Yeah, it is it, and you know, that's that's one
of the things that attracted me the case. There seemed
to be things, and the helicopter was one of the biggest.
Was like, you know, here's something that there will be
litterally or figurative footprints. The people involved. You tracked down
the bases, you know, the make some models, you know,
(39:08):
and uh, it's just it never never came to pass,
and there was there was one point of confusion. Uh,
it's kind of a tangent. I don't know if we
don't really want to get into it. But later there
was the same helicopter that type that landed in Dayton,
and uh.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Was that at a farm affair or something or.
Speaker 6 (39:29):
That's right, Lifestock Farmers of America event or something like that.
And Vicky and her friend and Kolbe and the daughter's
friend or grandson went went into the helicopter, talked to
the pilot and there was we know who the guy was,
and he had been involved in a UFO incident and
(39:52):
we can only assume that he described his incident and
Vicky assumed it was our either you know, it was
the same thing or just you know, she either misunderstood
or thought he was lying about it or something, but
she was sure that he had been involved. He was
one of the pilots, and he was pursued and by
(40:13):
John Schusler and later talked to by the Inspector General's
representative and interviewed and who's found not to be involved.
But you know, it's you know, even the false steps
become part of the legend. And you know a lot
of people still believe that, you know, there was a
helicopter pilot. It was identified, but you know, just just
(40:35):
was a mistakenly can.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
You every quickly just check your the wire on your mic,
It's just I'm getting some crackling sound on your end.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
If it's loose at all, but I do want to mention.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
That that eventually they did attempt to sue the US government.
I believe, if I'm correct, it was twenty million. That
they were seeking it in damages because of their their
health and their conditions.
Speaker 6 (41:07):
That's right. That they came about kind of slowly. They
the first the person that interviewed him, Alan Hendry, was
one of the people who said that they should pursue this,
They should contact their senators and congressmen, and Betty did
did that. He said a letter that you should contact
(41:28):
Burns from Air Force Base and they'll help you with this.
That was kind of miscontrued. Betty, Vicki and Colby packed
up and they said they brought overnight bags and they
thought that they would be received medical examinations and receive help.
All they were prepared to do was to listen to
their story, take their information, and give them damaged claims forms.
(41:53):
It was ultimately what happened, but there was a long
interview and luckily that was recorded. It later to transcribed,
and it was the first and probably the only detailed
testimony from them given to any government representative.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And then I read the transcript which I think around
your website too, that's right. Yeah, And again just the
reminder everybody listening, you can go to Kirk collins website.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Blue blurrylines dot com.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
He's an excellent shol and you really do make it
digest well as you break down these cases. So what
happened did they What was the final call in that case?
Speaker 6 (42:36):
Well, they filed the damaged claims forms, they were rejected,
so eventually there was a civil suit and so this was,
you know, the plaintiffs against the United States, and it
dragged on for several years. It started well only about
two really, from eighty three to eighty five. But and
(42:59):
Peter gerst And who's become more of a mystic now,
but he was really big then in pursuing Freedom of
Information Act and he was part of a lawsuit against
the government that produced a lot of UFO records, and
I think he hoped for the same thing in this case.
And he represented he was their attorney on paper. There
(43:21):
was a local lawyer who actually I think did most
you know, most of the court appearances and things like that.
But and he later said that he never really thought
he was going to win the case, but he thought
that they might settle. But the lawsuit was for ten
million dollars in damages for Betty and five million needs
for Colby and Vicki. And they asked for a lot
(43:45):
of things, including, you know, some some kind of weird
things like Project Snowbird and some of the other things
that were rumored military UFO duplication projects and things like that.
And the statements were produced from from all of the
military branches and from NASA, and they said that we
(44:05):
have no object that resembles this. And since they had
no they had the medical evidence, but you couldn't prove
that was connected with the UFO. They had the witness testimony,
but there was nothing tangible and with so it was ultimately, uh,
(44:28):
it never went to trial. Its basically thrown out for
lack of evidence.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Right, Okay, were there any Army Air Force bases or
any kind of bases nearby that would have had you know,
more than let's say, you know, four or five ch helicopters.
Speaker 6 (44:47):
Fort I think it was Fort Hood had had some
helicopters there, but they didn't have that many that and
sometimes they came through. And one one interesting thing that
it's tantalizing. So this was in nineteen eighty hostages running around.
There were two planned hostage rescues of the hostages that
(45:13):
were involving helicopters. One actually flew and crashed and it
was tragic, as second was planned and trained, and interestingly enough,
the original training was done in Area fifty one, which
was one of the few first mentions of that and
the press didn't quite really exploded like the later you know,
(45:39):
bobbles are related mystery, but you know it was the
hint of that. So but during their exercises, they did
fly across the country, but they were pretty well finished
by the time of the incident. But you know, in
that operation, theoretically there were enough helicopters in manpower and
they were flying a secret and at night, so you know,
(46:00):
it's a close match, but not a perfect one.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Well especially because you know Area fifty one on Nevada
is a long way away.
Speaker 6 (46:09):
But they came as far as the Gulf coast of Mississippi,
so then you know, there's they were flying over looks
several months and over a wide area, and I think
but Area fifty one was probably that first mission that crashed,
and this was I think rant was run out of
(46:31):
it might have been Fort Campbell, I'm not sure, but
it was the what what became known as the UH
the Knight Stalkers.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Well, because I think saying that we have a we
don't have a UFO is one thing. But I think
I understand the military and not wanting to settle the
case because then anybody can say, you know, I have
a medical problem, I was near a helicopter, you know,
and then now there's precedent, you know, for a settlement
in the future. So I do understand the military his
(47:01):
stance on this. But do you think that the military
did enough to look at that for these citizens and
investigate what occurred.
Speaker 6 (47:11):
Enough, say the military, but the government, well, it was
taken seriously. It was a representative in congressted initially the
Air Force and had them look into it, and they said, well,
(47:31):
these are not our helicopters, this type of helicopters armies.
And so Lieutenant Colonel Saran from the Army Inspair General's Office,
you know, took it very seriously. He talked, worked with
the John Schusler UH and a few other UFO related
people to get background on it, came to Texas, interviewed
(47:52):
the witnesses and he found the witnesses to be credible.
But you know, he even looked at into the the
the Iran team and found no, no connection. And I
don't think he was I think sincere, I think he
really just found nothing.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Do you think that they hoaxed this, that maybe Betty
and VICKI were seeking to make money off of this
using let's say the the Walton abduction as a president, Well.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
There are a lot of other cases. I mean, if
we look at things that could have inspired him, there
were there were the television show Project UFO was on
it at the time, and there were there were cases
that were somewhat similar there and cases in the news,
the Val Johnson case, uh where he had eye injury
(48:51):
and you know it struck his car. There, there's a
little bits similar to that. There was a case case
in South Carolina where where the man had skin burns
and he was on that's incredible and received media attention.
There's almost nothing about their case is entirely unique. The
(49:13):
helicopter involvement is odd, but even that has a little
bit of precedence in the there were the big mystery
about black helicopters related to cattle mutilations and so there
was a lot of talk about that in UFO circles,
But I don't know if Vicky and Betty were tuned
(49:34):
into that. You know, that was certainly big in UFO circles,
but yeah, I don't know if they would have absorbed that.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
So I have to say, yeah, but I have to
say my assessment looking at interviews, reading documents, I don't
get the sense that this is a hoax. And I also,
even though they've they did some interviews and you know,
we're in some documentaries afterwards, I don't see them as
(50:02):
being money chasers.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
I don't see this as like a golden ticket for them.
Speaker 6 (50:09):
Well, one thing about most hoaxers is they're not content
with one episode. Their stories get bigger and as it's
like a series of the I don't know how many
people are familiar with the golf Breeze With Ed ed Walters,
(50:31):
he continued to photograph and claim encounters and it was
just it was a long involved thing and the famous
contact to you in the nineteen fifties Georgia Damski. He
was in content with meeting one Venusian and he had
softer rides and met contingent and flew to the moon,
(50:51):
and the stories got bigger and wilder, and there's just
there's nothing really like that. And the case of Vicky
and Kolbe and Betty, the only thing you can say
about it was that as a story was retold, sometimes
it was told emotionally, and Betty would exaggerate and say
that she had third degree burns. She would talk about
(51:13):
when Vicky, how they were all in the hospital, but
it was only Betty that was in the hospital. But
you know, she's not changing the story. It's just you know,
there's a little exaggeration there.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Well yeah, I mean, but that's also normal in psychology.
You know, when you live with people or spend a
lot of time or share stories with people, it just
happens by osmosis. You know, one person's memory of something
can affect the other person's memory and it becomes kind
of a shared memory altogether. So that's why those initial
(51:45):
reports and interviews are really important.
Speaker 6 (51:49):
Well, you know, they sound sincere, and you know, if
and it was an emotional matter, you know, they felt
like they did justly treated. So you know, if there's
a you know, a little off, but like I say,
they you know, there's like a few degrees maybe that
it's that it's off, it's they're not changing the number
of people that are involved. They're not, you know. So
(52:11):
for example, like when when Betty was explained in destroy
months later and to the Berkster Air Force people, she
said that the light from this could be seen fifteen
miles away and people had seen it. Well, that's that's
not documented. That's she's probably described about how she felt.
(52:34):
It's her impression of it, right, you know, So you know,
it doesn't mean that it's false, it's you know, and
that just the way memories are built. You know, it's
part part emotion. It's not necessary, you know. It's not
like a camera that you can play back.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
No, no, no, it's not. And we definitely know that her.
As we get older, a lot of our memories are
become nothing emotional impressions. So it's kind of abstract emotional
impression of something. You lose the details over time, but
the core of that experience is still with you. And
(53:12):
I think when you're in this kind of situation and
you're with people that you care about, that you're close to,
that you love, when they're speaking emotionally or under dress,
under stress, and you're hearing their dress, you kind of
take it on as your own a little bit, you know,
so I can see as they cared for each other,
(53:32):
that they took on each other's feelings and experiences, and
then it just kind of becomes like an amalgamation. And
as I mentioned earlier, you know, Colby is still around,
and you know, the guy did like a UFO hundreds
episode years ago, and then you were a part of
an interview with him. You know, was it like twenty
(53:54):
eleven something like that.
Speaker 6 (53:58):
I think it was thirteen. That was that was That
was a very interesting thing. It was the first you know,
they hear him tell his story as an adult. It's
something he's very reluctant to do. And uh, you know
most of the time what me is the few times
that he has been on television, they've just used basically
sound bites and if not listened to the resource, the
(54:22):
last living witness that could really describe things from his
point of view. Of course, you know, he was only
he was just like a month short of seven years
old at the time, so you know, his memories are
not probably precise and detailed like a like a policeman
or investigator would want to hear. You know, it was
(54:43):
interesting some of the things he remembered. He had more
precise details about when he had gone to television show
and remembered you know, the things like you know, the
ride to the studio and how he sent a signal
to his mom and she was listening, you know, watching
the on television. So you know, he remembers things from
that time, but it's not necessarily that things we really
(55:06):
are interested in.
Speaker 1 (55:08):
Yeah, but you know, he does seem to have a
good memory. When you listen to these interviews when he's young,
he's tempered in the way he's expressing so concisely his story,
and it's really impressive for such a young child to
do that. And when he was older and he was
(55:29):
able to kind of understand emotionally what happened to him,
he attributed my understanding a lot of trauma and psychological struggles,
emotional struggles because of that incident, which is something I
don't want to leave off the table. So you know,
as we wrap up, Kurt, like, if you're walking away
(55:51):
from this event, one what do you think that craft was?
And two what is the importance? What are always supposed
to learn and take away from this story.
Speaker 6 (56:04):
Well, the one thing is that cases should be investigated
promptly so if there are clues, we can get after them.
You know. Unfortunately it was almost a month before this
was investigated by anyone, and you know, it was just
you know, if if someone is sweeping of evidence, you know,
(56:25):
then it's lost, you know, and memories, and there was
a search for other witnesses. But that all, all this
was delayed so that the first thing is prompt investigation.
And as far as as what the craft was, I
have no idea, but it's important to note that that Vicky, uh,
she felt, particularly after seeing the helicopters, that this was
(56:48):
a military project, you know, something they were experimenting with,
you know, it had gone wrong and they were trying
to control it. Uh. You know, her family believed that.
I think I think Betty shared that opinion. I think
Vicky was the one that you know, originally came to
that conclusion. Colby has felt that also, and relatives have spoken.
(57:14):
They called it like a nuclear plane. So you know
that I assume that it was radiation from some sort
of nuclear powered craft. It doesn't match with the symptoms
that they had, but you know, it's it's important that
they believe that strongly and for years, the witnesses for
(57:34):
the rest of their lives, and you know, Colby, to
this day, I think.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
Yeah, are you a believer that extra trestrials are visiting Earth?
Speaker 6 (57:48):
I believe in the phenomena, but I don't know that
it's necessarily alien. I have no doubt that there is
a mysterious use that possibly be beyond our science. Man,
I'm not convinced this necessarily alien. Maybe, you know, underworldly
(58:09):
in some sense. I just don't know. I'm certainly open
to finding out, and I want us to pursue it
wherever it goes.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
I appreciate that. Kurt, Thank you so much. I really
appreciate your research, and I hope that we stay in touch.
Speaker 4 (58:25):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (58:25):
Thank you great to be here all right.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
And for everyone to find out more about Kurt and
go to Blue Blurry Lines dot com. I promise you
it is absolutely worth it. Thanks again, Kurt, appreciate it,
and thank you all for joining tonight. Thank you everybody
in the comments section. You guys rock love seeing you
here every week. And thank you to the on X Network,
(58:49):
where this podcast is rebroadcast every Thursday night, eleven pm Pacific.
Time two am Eastern Friday mornings.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Until next time. Everyone, peace and love and live in
the mystery.
Speaker 6 (59:09):
It's good to be in purgingly.
Speaker 7 (59:10):
I wish more of us would think of ourselves that way.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
I don't have a problem with skeptics.
Speaker 6 (59:20):
It's the bunkers that are on some other level that
I don't understand.
Speaker 7 (59:42):
Especially an inference of a change in local gravity.
Speaker 6 (59:51):
Saucer shaped craft and they're hovering over the water Google Book,
Special Report fourteenth.
Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
The better the quality of the siting, the more likely
to be unexplainable.
However you are and whenever you are, welcome back everyone
to coffee and UFOs.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Two of my favorite things.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I've got a really great guest on tonight and a
really great topic, like a classic UFO case. Everything that
you could want in a UFO case. Helicopters, a UFO,
real witnesses who are on the record, there is documentation
to back up their report, and you had a thorough
(00:41):
amount of investigation, including lawsuits.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
With the government.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
It's one of the best documented cases out there. And
that's the nineteen eighty cash Landrum UFO incident. With me
is Kurt Collins. He is a independent investigator and the
author of Blue Blurry Lines website. That's blue blurrylines dot com.
If you're not familiar with it, it's a fantastic site,
(01:07):
especially if you really want to look at these subjects
from a rational and objective point of view. It doesn't
mean that this isn't an exciting and mystery mysterious case.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It really is. It's one of the best. But we
love here on.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Coffee UFOs taking a objective approach to all of these
and nuts and bolts if you will. Although you all
know that I'm open to the metaphysical as well, but
tonight Kurt's going to really guide us through. So I
want to say thank you to Kurt in just a
moment for taking the time to come on here, and
thank you to the ONEX Network for rebroadcasting this podcast
(01:45):
every Thursday night and Friday morning. I am back and
forth a lot with the social media platforms that I use,
So I will say this, if you really want to
keep up with what is going on with the show,
show upcoming, the programs, guests, it's all going to be
(02:05):
for sure on Instagram. On occasion, yeah, I'll post something
on X or Blue Sky or Facebook or what have you.
But the one place that I will be consistent and
have been consistent is Instagram.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
There's just so many, so many platforms that it's you know,
it's time consuming.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
And I'm not sure all y'all are in on Blue
Sky yet and a lot of you guys are leaving X,
so I'm not really sure where we're going with this,
but all your feedback will be appreciated. Let me know
where you will be and you can follow me on
Instagram at Coffee and UFO's podcast. So tonight's Case the
(02:46):
cash Landroo of Case Betty and Vicki are no longer
with us, but Kolby is and he has come out
in years after this case for interviews and shared his
story as an adult. What I'm gonna do right now
is just play a very short clip, uh, so you
(03:07):
can actually see the real people that were to discussing tonight.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
It makes it more tangible and more real.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
We had been driving out this country road, which it
is very desolate area, and all of a sudden we've
seen this object.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
And this object come down almost to the tree jobs
almost ahead of us, and I screamed for Baby to stop,
and I think if she hadn't have stopped, then we
went on under it, we would have burned up.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Well, I just feeling to look up through the sky
to look around a little bit more in a southern object,
it looked like a diamond.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
So, Kobe, if for whatever reason is watching this video, Kobe,
I'd love to meet you and induce you to the
coffee UFOs a platform and to have a conversation with you,
and tonight I think you'll appreciate everyone the conversation we
have with Kurt Collins. So, Kurt, welcome to Coffee, New Foods, cheers,
(04:11):
how are you.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
Yeah, it's a great case, very you know, it's one
of the things I focused on early on when I
became interested again with in UFOs as an adult, and
this is something you can really dig into. And I
kind of recommend anybody focus on a case if they're
interested in UFOs and to just to really see what
you can find out about it, what's really documented, and
(04:36):
not read the second hand accounts and summaries if you
can get to the original documentation. And that's what I
really have tried to do investigating the case.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Right, So, can you give us an overall summary of
the case encounter and of course after the encounter we
can talk more about, you know, what proceeded.
Speaker 6 (04:58):
Sure. So it was December twenty ninth, nineteen eighty. Vicky
Landerm and her grandson which he had custody of, and
Betty Cash went out to you know, the school was out.
They wanted to VICKI like to play Bengo, so they
were going to go go play Bengo. And they didn't
(05:20):
realize that being between Christmas in New York's eve, the
few places around were closed for the holidays. So instead
they went to a diner and had a meal, and
then they lived in Huffman, Texas. And they'd gone to
New Caney as far as New Canye looking which which
(05:42):
is and both of these places are not that far
from Houston. And on their way back to to Dayton,
they were on this not a deserted country road, but
it was sparsely populated near Huffman, Texas. And they saw
a light and that's uh, and it reginally. They thought
(06:04):
it maybe it was a planet distant plane, and it
came over the roadway in front of him, and there
was an intermittently was it was almost it was almost
like it was exhaust over the roadway, and they were
afraid it would burn them if they came any close
to it, so they stopped and we're looking at it
(06:25):
was described as being as large as a water tower,
and it was it was immensely bright. The lady witnesses
initially said they couldn't couldn't tell what it was, and
they they stopped to look got out briefly. Betty stayed
out the longest, but Kobe was really frightened by it
and he went back inside. It was it was it
(06:48):
made the kind of a mechanical noise they described like
a wishing of of of air brakes something like that.
So you know, it did seem to be some kind
of a mission. But Kolbe was the only one who
who really could provide a description of it, and he
said it was like an elongated diamond. But you know,
(07:11):
they could see no markings on it or anything, and
it was he was basically blinding.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
So so when we when we see these interviews where
Betty and Vicky describe the craft, are they are they
basing their description off of what Colby saw?
Speaker 6 (07:29):
I think so. And one thing that was strange about
the cases. Each each witness kind of had a different account,
but not radically different. For example, uh, you know later
the ladies saw helicopters. Is that the object finally moved away,
but they they they described it as initially they must
(07:51):
have been distant helicopters because they couldn't tell whether they
were planes or helicopters. But Colby's version of the stroy
he says that he saw helicopters the whole time. So
it's hard to fit all that together. You know, it
was an exciting series of events, and you know there's
always differences and what the witnesses will described, Well.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
That'sn't no different than than you know, witnesses seeing a
car accident from different angles or different personality types.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The way you describe.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Something, you'll you'll notice one element that another person doesn't.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
That's true. And sometimes witnesses would disagree on the number
of people involved. So it's it's you know, a lot
of it's what they're focused on, you know. And in
a case like this, you know, some some people witness
the UFO and there's a state of wonderer and you know,
they're wondering what the object is, and you know, it's
(08:43):
it's a fascinating thing. In this case, there was a
sense of danger and panic. In fact, uh uh. Vicky
Lantern in particular felt like it was the end of
the world. I mean, this was the biblical ending of
the world and fire and and you know, she she
was a religious person and she was trying to call
him Kobe by telling him that God would protect him.
And and Colby in particular was frightened and she you know,
(09:09):
he got back in the car. She was afraid he
was going to run off. He was just you know,
she said, he was hysterical. And Betty was outside watching it.
Longer than the others, and Vicky was calling for it
to get back into the car, and eventually she did.
You know, it was shortly afterwards it moved off. There
are a lot of parts to this besides the mentioned
(09:30):
the fire, and we don't know exactly what produced the
heat that they felt, but they felt like, you know,
it was like heat from a bonfire. It was. It
was intense, and you know, it was say, like one
hundred feet away from him, but they still felt this
pretty intensely. Another part of the story is that at
(09:51):
some point, I think it's when they when the car
was stopped, Vicky grabbed the dashboard and she said that
she left her hands, her fingers left impressions in the dashboard. Now,
whether that was anything to do with the heat or
just the strength of you know, her excitement, we're not
real sure about that.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
But well, I was gonna say it was a it
was a cutlass, right, old and real cutlass.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I think it was the car, right, you know. And
I remember some of the.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Interiors of those cars were that that kind of plastic.
It wasn't a horrid plastic always, It kind of had
a you could almost make an impression if he pressed
hard enough, and so I imagine if it did get
hot enough, you could make an impression and it might
actually recover once it cooled. Has anyone considered that, and
that would explain, you know, why you wouldn't see an
(10:39):
impression later.
Speaker 6 (10:41):
I agree with your impression of that. I don't think that.
I don't think that that's a say, like a supernatural
element of the case necessarily. It's just just one of
the physical features that have been mentioned.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Something that yeah, good.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
I don't know if it was mentioned in the original account,
but later on Betty described that there was a beeping
during the incident and it was kind of an intermittent shrill,
really high pitched noise, and so I don't know if
that was you know, we don't know the origin of that.
That's that's just one of the strange things.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Well, that's another instance where one witness notices something that
the others don't. But that doesn't mean it didn't she
didn't hear it, right, I mean, especially when your attention
is so distracted on such a disruptive event, I can
imagine her maybe hearing something that the others didn't.
Speaker 6 (11:39):
Well, and you know, as far as the differences between
the witnesses. Betty was she was more fascinated by the thing,
whereas there, you know, Vicki and Kobe were terrified. Uh
and uh. Once things once it lifted up and so
it was sort of the diamond shape it. Vicky described
(12:02):
it as turning over and then and then flying away
very slowly, and it didn't take off like a jet,
so you know, that's that's kind of puzzling, you know,
there's the whole flight performance. It was strange. And she
thought that they thought that it was that it might fall.
So whatever the object was, they thought it was kind
of in distress and maybe it recovered and flew off.
(12:24):
And at that point the helicopters followed and they continued
their drive, and then as they drove they encountered again
by by a cemetery or well, I don't know if
the cemetery is the right. It was a church property
and I think it had a number of things on it.
But at that point they stopped again and that's where
(12:47):
they counted the helicopters, and Kolbe said he counted twenty
three of them, and Vicki admitted that they might have
caught counted some of them more than once, but still
we can assume that there were a large number of
helicopters and they were pursuing the object. Once that passed,
(13:07):
they drove on and as they passed through Huffman and
were leaving, they were still able to see the object
and the helicopters and claimed even on the drive which
was I think about twenty miles to back to their
home of Dayton, they were able to see helicopters in
the air, so they were under the impression there were
still helicopters coming. So it had to you know, if
(13:30):
we except that there were really helicopters there, it seems
to have been a military operation.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
The on screen we put a representation of the craft.
Can you describe what that representation is?
Speaker 6 (13:46):
Well, this is Christian Lambright and he interviewed personally Vicky
Landham and Betty Cash over the phone, and based on
their testimony, he did this and so the way he
ripped was there the UFO is there. There's a diamond
shape there, but the brilliance is obscuring it, so you know,
this is you know, and based on the color, this
(14:09):
was as accurate representation as he could he could make
with the of the encounter.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Now, the interesting thing is we've seen this kind of
almost white gray blue representation of the diamond, but whenever
I hear them in interviews, they seem to be more
gray metallic. So how did we get representations that show
white on the craft?
Speaker 6 (14:35):
When it took a while from for the incident to
be investigated, and John Schusler investigated it after Betty she
was She became sick after the incident and was hospitals
for about two weeks, went home briefly and was in
the hospital for about another two weeks. And it was
(14:57):
only during that second stay that the fact that she'd
been involved in some kind of UFO counter came out
because she didn't. She thought it was so strange that
no one would believe her, and she didn't initially according
to the witnesses, Vicky Lantern said that they thought that
the irritation and the redness and the skin that they
(15:18):
felt was maybe due to wind chapping. They'd been out
in the you know, the it wasn't a pritically cold
in Texas, but it was you know, say thirty or
forty degrees, and they had flu like symptoms. But Betty's
symptoms were much worse and she had the skin irritation,
and during her second hospital stay she lost some of
(15:41):
her hair and it was a real mystery to the doctor.
There's they were able to associate to give a diagnosis,
and they tested her blood. They found no trace of
radiation and just it was just very puzzling. Couldn't couldn't
determine what could have caused it. So there she is
(16:02):
shortly after her hospital stay, and you can see how
the extensive hair loss.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
The sense of hair loft.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Some people have said that it was alopecia and it
was just just a coincidental occurrence.
Speaker 6 (16:23):
We're not able to prove from the medical records with
the limited access we have to him that the UFO
caused this. And some people that are completely skeptical as say, well,
maybe Betty had been a heart patient, she had other
medical problems, especially later. I mean, she was fifty seven
(16:44):
fifty two at the time of the encounter, and Vicky
was fifty seven, and it's not uncommon for people to
have health problems, and it could be that since she
was suffering health problems, you know, is it possible, well,
that the UFO counter was an invention, you know that
(17:05):
that's one scenario, and there's as much proof for that
as there is any other element of the case.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
So the suspicion is that they were exposed to maybe
some kind of ionizing radiation, right, or some electromagnetic radiation,
because my understanding with electromagnetic radiations that it could actually
affect you and being and not be traceable later on.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
That is that correct.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
If it were ionizing radiation, that that would have been proven.
And the Texas Department of Health was brought in many
months later and they investigated the scene, and here we
have one of the things that's that's peculiar about the
reporting of the incident, makes it sound as if they
(17:59):
knew precisely where it happened, but they were unable to
tell the Texas Department of Health just anything beyond the
general area. They investigated as best they could, and no
trace of behinonizing radiation was found. But if it was
something like electromagneated radiation or pulse microwaves or something like that,
(18:23):
it would wouldn't register that way. So it's a real
mystery if if it was caused by something that the
UFO omitted, that why it would cause the symptoms that
it did, Because it was several different things, you know,
the gastrointestinal distress that was produced, affluent like symptoms that
(18:44):
the sunburn like symptoms, crritation, yeah, and lesions underscan you
know number of things that just just don't add up.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Too many things happening at the same time, so you
can't just go, hey, it's a coincidence they have all
these health problems suddenly pop up. How quickly did the
did the was the onset of the of these issues.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
As it's been reported it was, It was pretty much immediate.
Betty said she felt bad driving on the way home
and she just dropped Kolbe and Vickie off and and
went back and said she had a splitting headache. And
the next day she was too sick to get up,
and you know, she and she just lay and she
wasn't actually in a comba, but she felt so unwell
(19:33):
she was unable to get up and really take care
of herself. And uh, when Vickie checked in on her,
she brought her she she found her in bad enough shape.
She took her to her home and cared for her
there for a while. And then on the third day afterwards,
she had her checked into the hospital and you know.
That's that's when the hospital stay began.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, so we're talking about within within an hour or so,
she had these onset of symptoms, right, Okay, So then
there they're struggling with with these health problems and that
that's what kind of spurred them to pursue more information
about what happened to them. And the only clue that
(20:19):
they had outside of the strange objects was the helicopters,
and that's kind of what they you know, went with, right.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
It was, Yeah, it was. It was. The incident was
the twenty ninth, and there was to stay in the
hospital and it was really about February second when the
it was revealed. As the story is told, the doctor said,
you know, I wish I knew what happened to you,
what caused this? And and Vicki and Colby were visiting
(20:48):
and Kolby said he thought it was the UFO and
the doctor said UFO. And so it was that point
is when the story was told, and the doctor became
very interested in that and insisted that they give a
written report of what had happened to him. And that
(21:09):
was the first say UFO documentation on the case. And
then later Vicky contacted the local police, and he didn't
know what to do about it. And they happened to
have a card for the National UFO Reporting Center, which
is still around, although under new management. It was run
by Robert Gribble MHM in those days, and uh Vicky called,
(21:36):
gave a report. I have a recording that on the side.
It's a short phone call that she doesn't go into detail,
and what she really insists is that she wants to
get help for her friend Betty because she's worried that
she may die of the condition she has, so she
wants some answers, and she doesn't know the first thing
about UFOs, and it's just really a loss about what
(21:58):
to do. And so at that point, Grebel passes the
information onto APRO, which was their aeri wol phenomena research organization,
and you know, they were based in I hope it
was Arizona, Scottsdale, somewhere in there that area, and they
although they had members all over, they didn't really have
(22:19):
anyone investigating the Houston area. And it was after it
was kind of fumbled for a while before things got going.
And well, the first the person who got hold of
the information rather than the leaders of the organization. He
(22:39):
got in contact with him and he sold the a
tip to the Weekly World News and so really the
first person to investigate it was a reporter from that
newspaper with a tabloid. Now at that time, you know,
the Weekly World News eventually became a parody and had
(23:00):
ridiculous stories. At this time it was just a typical
tabloid with sensational stories, but they actually were based on
real things that happened. All the reporting wasn't always so accurate,
but you know, from what we can tell, they did
a reasonably good job on investigating this case. They took
photographs of the witnesses and published a short, short, although
(23:24):
sensationally titled account of the story. And after that local
reporter covered it in the Conrad Courier. And so this
is this is into like by this time early about
this time in February, but around the twentieth or so.
And then eventually Vicky Betty's released from the hospital and
(23:48):
she is given the number to John Schusler, who is
the deputy director of mouf On but his day job
is a with the Johnson's Space Center. He's a he
works he's a contractor for McDonald douglas working on the
spatial program, and his private interest is UFO is not
(24:10):
part of his job. And he was.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Out and open about it too while working on NASSA.
Speaker 6 (24:18):
To the degree his custom license plates set UFO nut.
So he was very very open about it, and even.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
They must have driven the debunkers and skeptics crazy.
Speaker 6 (24:30):
And uh but but yeah, so he had an organization
called oh boy, let's see what was visits the initials vehicle.
Oh gosh. Basically their premise was that that that UFOs
were were not so much unidentified there there were spacecraft
and their whole thing was trying to figure out the
(24:52):
engineering of UFOs and how they how they worked. So he,
you know, he had an interest in Some people would
say it bias. He had. He had been Betty contacted
him and independently APRO eventually had forwarded information about the
(25:13):
case to him. But this is when I said, bumble,
this is it was just not it was not investigated immediately,
it was not handed to the people who should have
had it, and it was not promptly investigated. It's it's
kind of unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, So did you say earlier that was Apro that
tipped off the newspaper.
Speaker 6 (25:35):
The Weekly World News.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, because I'm just surprised.
Speaker 6 (25:40):
Well Bill if Bill English was a person that did it,
and it sounds it sounds awful. But if you look
at the reporting in the seventies and eighties, there was
a lot of relationship between particularly the National Inquirer, and
they had a blue ribbon panel of UFO experts and
there was a there was a good relationship. So it's
(26:03):
it's not as.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
For example, well, I's gonna say, for example, APRO worked
with National Inquiry during the Travis Walton Turkey Springs case too,
and actually to their benefit because because of that sharing
of information, they're actually able to fund medical test testing
or you know, light detective testing and that sort of thing.
So there is a positive aspect to that, right, that relationship.
Speaker 6 (26:32):
It it could have it could have really been destructive,
but it didn't really work out. And that's that way
in this case. And and one of the one of
the respected researches he's no longer with is Bob Pratt
work for the National Enquirer, and he actually worked with
John Schusler later on and wrote the forward to the book.
(26:55):
So the tabloid part is not as as poisonous as
it might sound, although they did do some kind of
slipshot reporting on it. One thing the National required did
do You mentioned the investigation They paid for doctor Leo
(27:15):
Sprinkle to do hypnot regression on VICKI later and you know,
trying to probe to see if there was anything of
any other parts that she could be retarded under hypnosis.
There were a couple of things, and I don't think
we can reliably add them to the case. She said
(27:37):
that she described the spell of a lighter fluid, which
you know, some people have you know, thought that could
be you know, fuel of some kind, whether it was
the helicopters or the UFO. And then she mentioned blue lights,
which had never been mentioned anywhere else in connection with
(28:00):
the UFO. And and and later and later on because
some of the UFOs in the area seen that the
people had reported with lights. I think that's where the
lights that were depicted, and that that second illustration that
that you showed came from that, you know, it was
it was it was from the witnesses, but it was
(28:22):
not the original testimony. So I feel like that was
an additional element that we cannot consider well. It's not
from the primary source.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
So it's a composite.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
And also we don't we don't know if that craft
appeared differently physically. You know, we don't know what the
mechanism of of that craft was, of its skin, you know,
how it could light up or not light up. So
maybe it did lighten up for some reason, you know,
or just looked lighter from a different angle, depending on
(28:53):
the point of view of the witnesses.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
That's certainly a possibility.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
When you mentioned on the road, when they want to
go back and find the location, the idea there was
that there would be a kind of a cinge mark
or something in the road that they could locate, and
they couldn't find it. I remember there was an h
UFO Hunters episode some years ago where they went to
(29:20):
the approximate location. They took core samples to see if
there was a newly paved road over that spot, and
they couldn't find any evidence of that. And even in
the records, they couldn't find any records of a newly
paved road.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Do you think that there's a kind of a hole
in that part of the story.
Speaker 6 (29:41):
There's a there's a local legend that after the incident,
and depending on where you're hear it, it was the
next day that trucks came in, ripped up the road,
holded away and it was repaid. Well, that's not the
way it happened. It was about a year and a
half after the incident. I think it maybe only half
(30:02):
of the road was repaved initially, so that that that
just doesn't really add up. But you know, when they
did revisit the scene, John Schuster first interviewed Betty by phone,
then saw her the next day, and then it was
a week before he was you know, because he had
a day job. It was a week before he was
(30:24):
able to visit Vicky and Colbe and take their testimony.
And it was only Vicky that went along to recreate
the drive and find a piece of road that where
she thought it had happened and estimate the distance. And
(30:47):
you know, they measured that you came up with about
one hundred and twenty feet. I think I think they
estimated the us UFO itself as being about ninety feet
long something like that. But one of the things dealing
with the authority of a NASA scientist, the Winds has
(31:07):
put a lot of stock and what he said, and so,
you know, when he measured it rather than the estimate
that they had originally given, and you know, they paste
it off. You know, they would accept his figure. And
when he would sort of do a homogenized version of
the story and include Colby's diamond shaped description, the ladies
(31:28):
themselves started describing it as diamage, whereas originally they couldn't
even guess at the shape of it. So the investigator
influenced the way the story was retold.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Interesting, Okay, So what I think is interesting about the
craft the way you say, I think Vicky described it
as sort of tipping on its side before it started
moving away. I was speaking to markd' antonio on the
podcast Life last week and he was, you know, theorizing
about you know, protect potential physics and engineering that where
(32:07):
craft could you know, move in the way that these
U A P and UFOs are witnessed. And it was
interesting because he drew a parallel with Bob Blazar's description
of some of the crafts and how like that they
would be in this kind of odd angle when they
(32:28):
would accelerate or change direction. And I just think that's
an interesting little tidbit because if the craft indeed was
kind of upright and then tipped and then moved. Uh
that that that doesn't doesn't track with anything based on
the aerodynamics, at least at the time, within the technologies
(32:50):
that we had.
Speaker 6 (32:50):
Right we we I can't even imagine what this object
might have been how you know, even even if it
was some you know, sort of alien spacecraft, it seems
like it was it was flying, you know, point first
when they when they saw it, and then over the
(33:12):
roadway when possibly was in distress. But you know, what
was his flame was that part of it didn't use
that when it flew, was that you know, some sort
of jet like thing to help stabilize it, you know,
I I just can't imagine that. I mean, it's just a
lot of a lot of UFO cases they involved bizarre
(33:34):
flight characteristics or behavior, you know. And then the fact
that was over the road. It didn't need to be there,
you know, it's almost as if it was there for
their benefit, you know, if it was a stage of event. Yeah,
it's just it could have been overfield, which it which
there's no no answer to that.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Do you think it's fair to draw parallel between that
UFO through the Lanismore nineteen sixty four Socorro, New Mexico
UFO with the flames coming out of the bottom.
Speaker 6 (34:07):
It does make you wonder about that, and it's it's
slightly similar in that respect. It's that's not not a
very common element. UFOs don't generally appear to blast off
in any way, and this one didn't exactly, but they
had the flames that are some you know, similar to exhaust.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah, but you're right, but it's not like it's a
rocket where there's flames in the boom. That's not how
it works. It seems to be some kind of stabilizing
technology of some sort. Uh. Yeah, we have a good
question here from jingis I have to include said the
whistleblower that was on News Nation discussing the egg retrieval.
(34:51):
The eggcraft that was retrieved mentioned how other crew members
and helicopter passengers got sick after transport the unknown objects
in crates. Well, what is your take on his story.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
Jake Barker, I just don't have enough information about that.
But that does raise an interesting question in the cash
lantern story, because if the witness were close enough, which
were about one hundred and twenty feet, the helicopters must
have been that close to it, and there had to
(35:30):
have been a minimum of three people. And these these
were mostly Chunook helicopters, huge, huge, and loud by the way,
and if there were as many as they say, you
would think that you know, the whole countryside would have
heard them as they moved over. Yeah, but so and
(35:53):
you know there there must have been dozens of people,
and we have no record of any of them being sick.
But we have no record if the helicopters themselves or
or any of the crew men. And uh, that's a
that's a big part of the mystery. And that's that's
why the the the army got involved because they were
the ones that generally fly these helicopters.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Of course, you you'd expect to be army medical records
or or whatever military medical records of some sort. But again,
I guess if you're a covert operation, uh that you
don't want to know that peopled that exists, then you
wouldn't really have medical records, would you. You would have procedures,
but no records.
Speaker 6 (36:37):
And that that could be and the fact that the helicopters,
the helicopters, that was the first thing that that really
anyone tried to track down the dig Donovgan from the
Weekly World News, John Schusler and his team UH and
then also Alan Hendry from QBOS with the deputy director
(36:58):
that he was. He was given a contract by the
Fund for UFO Research to pursue the helicopters, and he
did an investigation on that and and talked to the
witness themselves and found, you know, found nothing to support it.
There there had been limited helicopter activity and area and
(37:19):
basically none at the time because of the Christmas break.
They were stripped down to a skeleton crew, so there
shouldn't have been anyone flying, and if it was a
special unit, you know, even they were had limited resources.
So it just it just didn't add up. It's caused
some people to conclude, who find the story credible, that
(37:42):
maybe there were not physically helicopters, that this was some
sort of projection, a defense mechanism, whether it was a
psychic projection or a holographic projection to to disguise or
did deflect interest in the UFO. You know, I find
(38:04):
that pretty wild. But you know, there's there's nothing, there's
nothing really to grab onto and so.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
It's actually easier to believe the government would just be
covering up you know, twenty three you know helicopters that
and I know Colby said they're roughly At one point
he thought he maybe counted twenty three, but considered considering
the situation and if indeed they're moving around, I could
see how he could miscount. But still, I mean, what
(38:35):
are we looking at at a minimum, you know, eight
or ten helicopters that he may have seen, and that's
that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That's a big operation.
Speaker 6 (38:44):
Yeah, it is it, and you know, that's that's one
of the things that attracted me the case. There seemed
to be things, and the helicopter was one of the biggest.
Was like, you know, here's something that there will be
litterally or figurative footprints. The people involved. You tracked down
the bases, you know, the make some models, you know,
(39:08):
and uh, it's just it never never came to pass,
and there was there was one point of confusion. Uh,
it's kind of a tangent. I don't know if we
don't really want to get into it. But later there
was the same helicopter that type that landed in Dayton,
and uh.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Was that at a farm affair or something or.
Speaker 6 (39:29):
That's right, Lifestock Farmers of America event or something like that.
And Vicky and her friend and Kolbe and the daughter's
friend or grandson went went into the helicopter, talked to
the pilot and there was we know who the guy was,
and he had been involved in a UFO incident and
(39:52):
we can only assume that he described his incident and
Vicky assumed it was our either you know, it was
the same thing or just you know, she either misunderstood
or thought he was lying about it or something, but
she was sure that he had been involved. He was
one of the pilots, and he was pursued and by
(40:13):
John Schusler and later talked to by the Inspector General's
representative and interviewed and who's found not to be involved.
But you know, it's you know, even the false steps
become part of the legend. And you know a lot
of people still believe that, you know, there was a
helicopter pilot. It was identified, but you know, just just
(40:35):
was a mistakenly can.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
You every quickly just check your the wire on your mic,
It's just I'm getting some crackling sound on your end.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
If it's loose at all, but I do want to mention.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
That that eventually they did attempt to sue the US government.
I believe, if I'm correct, it was twenty million. That
they were seeking it in damages because of their their
health and their conditions.
Speaker 6 (41:07):
That's right. That they came about kind of slowly. They
the first the person that interviewed him, Alan Hendry, was
one of the people who said that they should pursue this,
They should contact their senators and congressmen, and Betty did
did that. He said a letter that you should contact
(41:28):
Burns from Air Force Base and they'll help you with this.
That was kind of miscontrued. Betty, Vicki and Colby packed
up and they said they brought overnight bags and they
thought that they would be received medical examinations and receive help.
All they were prepared to do was to listen to
their story, take their information, and give them damaged claims forms.
(41:53):
It was ultimately what happened, but there was a long
interview and luckily that was recorded. It later to transcribed,
and it was the first and probably the only detailed
testimony from them given to any government representative.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And then I read the transcript which I think around
your website too, that's right. Yeah, And again just the
reminder everybody listening, you can go to Kirk collins website.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Blue blurrylines dot com.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
He's an excellent shol and you really do make it
digest well as you break down these cases. So what
happened did they What was the final call in that case?
Speaker 6 (42:36):
Well, they filed the damaged claims forms, they were rejected,
so eventually there was a civil suit and so this was,
you know, the plaintiffs against the United States, and it
dragged on for several years. It started well only about
two really, from eighty three to eighty five. But and
(42:59):
Peter gerst And who's become more of a mystic now,
but he was really big then in pursuing Freedom of
Information Act and he was part of a lawsuit against
the government that produced a lot of UFO records, and
I think he hoped for the same thing in this case.
And he represented he was their attorney on paper. There
(43:21):
was a local lawyer who actually I think did most
you know, most of the court appearances and things like that.
But and he later said that he never really thought
he was going to win the case, but he thought
that they might settle. But the lawsuit was for ten
million dollars in damages for Betty and five million needs
for Colby and Vicki. And they asked for a lot
(43:45):
of things, including, you know, some some kind of weird
things like Project Snowbird and some of the other things
that were rumored military UFO duplication projects and things like that.
And the statements were produced from from all of the
military branches and from NASA, and they said that we
(44:05):
have no object that resembles this. And since they had
no they had the medical evidence, but you couldn't prove
that was connected with the UFO. They had the witness testimony,
but there was nothing tangible and with so it was ultimately, uh,
(44:28):
it never went to trial. Its basically thrown out for
lack of evidence.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Right, Okay, were there any Army Air Force bases or
any kind of bases nearby that would have had you know,
more than let's say, you know, four or five ch helicopters.
Speaker 6 (44:47):
Fort I think it was Fort Hood had had some
helicopters there, but they didn't have that many that and
sometimes they came through. And one one interesting thing that
it's tantalizing. So this was in nineteen eighty hostages running around.
There were two planned hostage rescues of the hostages that
(45:13):
were involving helicopters. One actually flew and crashed and it
was tragic, as second was planned and trained, and interestingly enough,
the original training was done in Area fifty one, which
was one of the few first mentions of that and
the press didn't quite really exploded like the later you know,
(45:39):
bobbles are related mystery, but you know it was the
hint of that. So but during their exercises, they did
fly across the country, but they were pretty well finished
by the time of the incident. But you know, in
that operation, theoretically there were enough helicopters in manpower and
they were flying a secret and at night, so you know,
(46:00):
it's a close match, but not a perfect one.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Well especially because you know Area fifty one on Nevada
is a long way away.
Speaker 6 (46:09):
But they came as far as the Gulf coast of Mississippi,
so then you know, there's they were flying over looks
several months and over a wide area, and I think
but Area fifty one was probably that first mission that crashed,
and this was I think rant was run out of
(46:31):
it might have been Fort Campbell, I'm not sure, but
it was the what what became known as the UH
the Knight Stalkers.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Well, because I think saying that we have a we
don't have a UFO is one thing. But I think
I understand the military and not wanting to settle the
case because then anybody can say, you know, I have
a medical problem, I was near a helicopter, you know,
and then now there's precedent, you know, for a settlement
in the future. So I do understand the military his
(47:01):
stance on this. But do you think that the military
did enough to look at that for these citizens and
investigate what occurred.
Speaker 6 (47:11):
Enough, say the military, but the government, well, it was
taken seriously. It was a representative in congressted initially the
Air Force and had them look into it, and they said, well,
(47:31):
these are not our helicopters, this type of helicopters armies.
And so Lieutenant Colonel Saran from the Army Inspair General's Office,
you know, took it very seriously. He talked, worked with
the John Schusler UH and a few other UFO related
people to get background on it, came to Texas, interviewed
(47:52):
the witnesses and he found the witnesses to be credible.
But you know, he even looked at into the the
the Iran team and found no, no connection. And I
don't think he was I think sincere, I think he
really just found nothing.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Do you think that they hoaxed this, that maybe Betty
and VICKI were seeking to make money off of this
using let's say the the Walton abduction as a president, Well.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
There are a lot of other cases. I mean, if
we look at things that could have inspired him, there
were there were the television show Project UFO was on
it at the time, and there were there were cases
that were somewhat similar there and cases in the news,
the Val Johnson case, uh where he had eye injury
(48:51):
and you know it struck his car. There, there's a
little bits similar to that. There was a case case
in South Carolina where where the man had skin burns
and he was on that's incredible and received media attention.
There's almost nothing about their case is entirely unique. The
(49:13):
helicopter involvement is odd, but even that has a little
bit of precedence in the there were the big mystery
about black helicopters related to cattle mutilations and so there
was a lot of talk about that in UFO circles,
But I don't know if Vicky and Betty were tuned
(49:34):
into that. You know, that was certainly big in UFO circles,
but yeah, I don't know if they would have absorbed that.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
So I have to say, yeah, but I have to
say my assessment looking at interviews, reading documents, I don't
get the sense that this is a hoax. And I also,
even though they've they did some interviews and you know,
we're in some documentaries afterwards, I don't see them as
(50:02):
being money chasers.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
I don't see this as like a golden ticket for them.
Speaker 6 (50:09):
Well, one thing about most hoaxers is they're not content
with one episode. Their stories get bigger and as it's
like a series of the I don't know how many
people are familiar with the golf Breeze With Ed ed Walters,
(50:31):
he continued to photograph and claim encounters and it was
just it was a long involved thing and the famous
contact to you in the nineteen fifties Georgia Damski. He
was in content with meeting one Venusian and he had
softer rides and met contingent and flew to the moon,
(50:51):
and the stories got bigger and wilder, and there's just
there's nothing really like that. And the case of Vicky
and Kolbe and Betty, the only thing you can say
about it was that as a story was retold, sometimes
it was told emotionally, and Betty would exaggerate and say
that she had third degree burns. She would talk about
(51:13):
when Vicky, how they were all in the hospital, but
it was only Betty that was in the hospital. But
you know, she's not changing the story. It's just you know,
there's a little exaggeration there.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Well yeah, I mean, but that's also normal in psychology.
You know, when you live with people or spend a
lot of time or share stories with people, it just
happens by osmosis. You know, one person's memory of something
can affect the other person's memory and it becomes kind
of a shared memory altogether. So that's why those initial
(51:45):
reports and interviews are really important.
Speaker 6 (51:49):
Well, you know, they sound sincere, and you know, if
and it was an emotional matter, you know, they felt
like they did justly treated. So you know, if there's
a you know, a little off, but like I say,
they you know, there's like a few degrees maybe that
it's that it's off, it's they're not changing the number
of people that are involved. They're not, you know. So
(52:11):
for example, like when when Betty was explained in destroy
months later and to the Berkster Air Force people, she
said that the light from this could be seen fifteen
miles away and people had seen it. Well, that's that's
not documented. That's she's probably described about how she felt.
(52:34):
It's her impression of it, right, you know, So you know,
it doesn't mean that it's false, it's you know, and
that just the way memories are built. You know, it's
part part emotion. It's not necessary, you know. It's not
like a camera that you can play back.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
No, no, no, it's not. And we definitely know that her.
As we get older, a lot of our memories are
become nothing emotional impressions. So it's kind of abstract emotional
impression of something. You lose the details over time, but
the core of that experience is still with you. And
(53:12):
I think when you're in this kind of situation and
you're with people that you care about, that you're close to,
that you love, when they're speaking emotionally or under dress,
under stress, and you're hearing their dress, you kind of
take it on as your own a little bit, you know,
so I can see as they cared for each other,
(53:32):
that they took on each other's feelings and experiences, and
then it just kind of becomes like an amalgamation. And
as I mentioned earlier, you know, Colby is still around,
and you know, the guy did like a UFO hundreds
episode years ago, and then you were a part of
an interview with him. You know, was it like twenty
(53:54):
eleven something like that.
Speaker 6 (53:58):
I think it was thirteen. That was that was That
was a very interesting thing. It was the first you know,
they hear him tell his story as an adult. It's
something he's very reluctant to do. And uh, you know
most of the time what me is the few times
that he has been on television, they've just used basically
sound bites and if not listened to the resource, the
(54:22):
last living witness that could really describe things from his
point of view. Of course, you know, he was only
he was just like a month short of seven years
old at the time, so you know, his memories are
not probably precise and detailed like a like a policeman
or investigator would want to hear. You know, it was
(54:43):
interesting some of the things he remembered. He had more
precise details about when he had gone to television show
and remembered you know, the things like you know, the
ride to the studio and how he sent a signal
to his mom and she was listening, you know, watching
the on television. So you know, he remembers things from
that time, but it's not necessarily that things we really
(55:06):
are interested in.
Speaker 1 (55:08):
Yeah, but you know, he does seem to have a
good memory. When you listen to these interviews when he's young,
he's tempered in the way he's expressing so concisely his story,
and it's really impressive for such a young child to
do that. And when he was older and he was
(55:29):
able to kind of understand emotionally what happened to him,
he attributed my understanding a lot of trauma and psychological struggles,
emotional struggles because of that incident, which is something I
don't want to leave off the table. So you know,
as we wrap up, Kurt, like, if you're walking away
(55:51):
from this event, one what do you think that craft was?
And two what is the importance? What are always supposed
to learn and take away from this story.
Speaker 6 (56:04):
Well, the one thing is that cases should be investigated
promptly so if there are clues, we can get after them.
You know. Unfortunately it was almost a month before this
was investigated by anyone, and you know, it was just
you know, if if someone is sweeping of evidence, you know,
(56:25):
then it's lost, you know, and memories, and there was
a search for other witnesses. But that all, all this
was delayed so that the first thing is prompt investigation.
And as far as as what the craft was, I
have no idea, but it's important to note that that Vicky, uh,
she felt, particularly after seeing the helicopters, that this was
(56:48):
a military project, you know, something they were experimenting with,
you know, it had gone wrong and they were trying
to control it. Uh. You know, her family believed that.
I think I think Betty shared that opinion. I think
Vicky was the one that you know, originally came to
that conclusion. Colby has felt that also, and relatives have spoken.
(57:14):
They called it like a nuclear plane. So you know
that I assume that it was radiation from some sort
of nuclear powered craft. It doesn't match with the symptoms
that they had, but you know, it's it's important that
they believe that strongly and for years, the witnesses for
(57:34):
the rest of their lives, and you know, Colby, to
this day, I think.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
Yeah, are you a believer that extra trestrials are visiting Earth?
Speaker 6 (57:48):
I believe in the phenomena, but I don't know that
it's necessarily alien. I have no doubt that there is
a mysterious use that possibly be beyond our science. Man,
I'm not convinced this necessarily alien. Maybe, you know, underworldly
(58:09):
in some sense. I just don't know. I'm certainly open
to finding out, and I want us to pursue it
wherever it goes.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
I appreciate that. Kurt, Thank you so much. I really
appreciate your research, and I hope that we stay in touch.
Speaker 4 (58:25):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (58:25):
Thank you great to be here all right.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
And for everyone to find out more about Kurt and
go to Blue Blurry Lines dot com. I promise you
it is absolutely worth it. Thanks again, Kurt, appreciate it,
and thank you all for joining tonight. Thank you everybody
in the comments section. You guys rock love seeing you
here every week. And thank you to the on X Network,
(58:49):
where this podcast is rebroadcast every Thursday night, eleven pm Pacific.
Time two am Eastern Friday mornings.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Until next time. Everyone, peace and love and live in
the mystery.
Speaker 6 (59:09):
It's good to be in purgingly.
Speaker 7 (59:10):
I wish more of us would think of ourselves that way.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
I don't have a problem with skeptics.
Speaker 6 (59:20):
It's the bunkers that are on some other level that
I don't understand.
Speaker 7 (59:42):
Especially an inference of a change in local gravity.
Speaker 6 (59:51):
Saucer shaped craft and they're hovering over the water Google Book,
Special Report fourteenth.
Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
The better the quality of the siting, the more likely
to be unexplainable.
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