Update on the 1948 Aztec UFO Crash | A True Story or Complicated Myth? - Coffee & UFOs

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
However you are and whenever you are, welcome back to
Coffee and UFO's. I'm Alan B. Smith. You're grateful host.
I have returned guests tonight that I'm really happy to
bring back to the podcast. Those are the authors of
the book The Aztec Ufo Incident, Scott Ramsey and Suzanne
Ramsey Cauthord with Frank Theayer, who will not be with

(00:33):
us tonight, but Frank's been on in the past. If
you want to check out those episodes, please do. Tonight
we are going to revisit the Aztec Incident because they
have another book coming out and according to them, it
is the last book on this. They're putting the clamp
down and closing their case. So I'm really interested to

(00:56):
hear what they have to say, and I'm interested to
hear what you have to say because I do understand
that this is a bit of a controversial maybe that's
too strong for word, but controversial incident. There are quite
a number of people out there in the world of
uthology that I think the ASTech Ufo incident is not

(01:17):
a thing, much like people think the Trinity Event was
not a thing, and it's just hearsay, misunderstanding or a
conflating of the roswelld event and people are just miss
describing the dates, the times and what happened, So we'll

(01:38):
get more into that. As a friendly reminder, this podcast,
Coffee and UFOs is a rebroadcast on the ONEX network
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(01:59):
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If you want to follow on social media, you can
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(02:20):
UFOs on Blue Sky and Coffee and UFO's podcast on
Instagram and on x which I still visit on occasion
at Paranormal Underscore. Now, all right, let's bring on our guests,
Scott and Suzanne Ramsey. How are you good beating?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Alan?

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, welcome back, Thank you, thanks for having us. Absolutely
so we do have to touch on this a couple
of stories dropped today. There was a UFO sitting on
Long Island, which is exciting because that's in New York
State here, But more so was the Jake Barber story
that dropped on News Nation. And there's an exclusive interview

(03:01):
with this retired Air Force pilot with Jay ross Cohart,
which will air on this Friday. But I just want
to play a little clip here just to give us
all an idea of what is to come, and then
i'd like to get your thoughts on all this. Can

(03:26):
you hear this?

Speaker 3 (03:27):
No?

Speaker 1 (03:27):
No, no, okay, so I can Okay, I'm gonna turn
that off then if we can hear it. So, Jake
Barbara apparently flew a helicopter as a part of a
crash retrieval program, and there are apparently two other pilots

(03:51):
that are corroborating his story, which we'll find out more
about this Saturday. What is your take on this? And
and I'd like to really get your take on what
the whole disclosure movement as we see it right now?

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Do you want to start and then sure? I I
don't think we're going to see disclosure like everybody thinks
we're going to see. It's it's a neat buzzword that
people are kicking around. Disclosure has been happening already for years,
and it's people doing archival research. Stan Friedman before he passed,

(04:31):
I mean, he did archival research for thirty years. A
lot of good documents came out of that. We have
done some. Frank Fashina has done some, Dave Marler has
done some. I don't think we're going to wake up
some day and somebody's going to say, Okay, all the

(04:52):
here's all the truth and facts and documents about the UFO.
I could be wrong. I hope I am, but I
don't see it that way for me.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
I agree. I don't think that it's going to happen
some magic day that it's going to be revealed to us.
I did a lecture to some children in New Mexico,
a zoom lecture a year or two ago, and they
were oh third through fifth grade, and it was very interesting.

(05:24):
None of their parents read newspapers, none of their parents
really even watched the news. And yet when I asked
the children about what they thought about UFOs, what they
thought about aliens, every single one of them were very,
very comfortable with it. With the idea, and that tells
you that disclosure is already happening. If those children are

(05:48):
conditioned already and comfortable with the idea, there's not as
much to disclose as we think now. May I guess
some of us who have been around for a while
would like to see some magic moment where they tada,
here it is and we're going to tell you everything
that we kept hidden. But I don't really see that happening.
I think it's a gradual process and it's already happening.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Also, how much credibility can we give to a whistleblower
like you know, Jake Barber or David Grush, because you know,
even David Grush has apparently data and documents that he
feels the same thing with Louiel Zondo. He feels that

(06:32):
if the public could see this, then you know, that
would be convincing enough for the general public to accept this,
and perhaps even mainstream media just coming forward and saying,
how was there I saw such and such? Is that enough?

Speaker 2 (06:49):
No? I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
To me, I think anybody, and we see this oftentimes
in every topic, but certainly in your pology that people
make claims and then there's not and promise information and
sometimes they just don't follow up with it, So that's disappointing.

(07:12):
Say what the truth is, and it might be limited,
but at least you trust that that's the truth.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
This is why we have pets, because whatever they're telling us,
we know it's the truth. I was just talking to
my wife and we're talking about how our cat. You know,
she'll wait for you by the stairs to guide you
down to take you to the bowl so that you
can feed her. You know, they're just like so honest

(07:40):
and just they are as they are, and it's it's
a wonderful thing. It's a nice break. It's it's a
healthy thing to have in your life. When you're working
in this field. You you have been researching aztec U
have oho incident for a long time. Where have you
changed on this when you from a first book now

(08:00):
moving on to your third, which is to be published soon.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
Cant Yeah. I think for me, we have more information,
and I think the difference with the first, second and
now third book will be is that we've had additional information,
but we're always limited in the books as to the
documents the photos that we can put in. You just

(08:26):
are whether it's a publisher or you publish yourself. And
at this point it's double bcare. We're going to put
in every single thing that we have. If it's something
that we you know, to this point, we've always put
in everything that we knew to be true and and
withheld anything that we were questionable. We'll probably add the
questionable things, but we'll just make a notation that this

(08:48):
is we have no proof, but this is what it
looks like.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Well, when you say questionable, can you give an example.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
That we don't have documentation of back it up?

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Okay, yeah, we.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Can't it up. If we can't back it up, we've
never included it at this point, so we've had to
limit ourselves a lot. We just wanted the truth to
be out there, and so now it's not that we're
not going to tell the truth, but if there's something
that we know to be true, we'll give the whole
scenarian description. So the format for this book is we'll

(09:22):
have every single witness, the entire timeline and the flow
chart that goes all the way through, and then the
back portion of the book will be the research the
documentation to follow it up. So lots of very interesting
people that we've never been able to include and criteria,

(09:42):
and we've learned a lot in between each book. Every
time we get ready to publish, we find new information.
And actually that's one of the reasons why we've held
off a little bit longer than we had hoped on
this book, because we've got some new information and you know,
we would hate to publish without it.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Why Why do you think people are confusing or conflating
the Trinity UFO case and the ASSTECH case.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
When you say Trinity, are you referring.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
To Trinity Site, New Mexico exactly?

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Well, that was that was many years before Roswell or
az Tech. That was like forty five forty five, Yeah, Suzanne,
and I've been there with other UFO researchers and actually
had lunch at the White Al restaurant, which is almost
within walking distance. I don't I don't know either way

(10:43):
whether it did or didn't. But interesting about thirty years ago.
I'm having some real bad allergy problems, so bear with me.
I've tried to talk as clear as I can about
thirty years ago. And a lady came to us that
was up in years and she claimed she actually worked

(11:04):
at the White Owl restaurant, which is sort of a
landmark down there. She claimed on her way to work,
she saw an object UFO that looked to be on
fire and came through White Sands, came over the mountains
at White Sands, and landed about where the Padia boys

(11:29):
saw the craft. That was way before this thing was
even and we fluffed it off because it had nothing
to do with the Aztec. We thought it was an
interesting story, but there really was no connection. But Juzan
and I went back a few years later and we

(11:51):
all met at the White Owl and Dennis Balfezer and I,
he's a really good Roswell researcher. We went down to
where the boys said they saw it. It's interesting because
if you look at a Randocknaley and you zoom in
on that area, it's a protected federal wildlife bird habitat.

(12:15):
So technically you're not allowed to do what we did.
I'm not admitting to a federal crime here, but why
would that be a protect protected wildlife habitat area exactly
where the crafts supposedly happened.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
But I've well, could that could be coincidental?

Speaker 2 (12:34):
It could be, it could be so much of the
land in New Mexico is protected by the federal government.
That that's very true.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Of course, it's New Mexico has got a lot of
secrets too.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Well, maybe maybe that's not case specific. Maybe it's just
another excuse to keep people, you know, off land in general,
you know, and away from from areas.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
I find it interesting it didn't happen near, you know,
in forty seven, like Roswell. It didn't happen in forty
eight like Aztec. When I first heard the Aztec story,
the first thing I thought was, how are these people
confusing Roswell and this when we're at two different ends
of the states. Aztec is the northwest corner. Roswell is

(13:22):
basically the southeast corner. But as our research went deeper
and deeper, we found out there was no connection between
the two. They're both separate cases. As San Antonio. Maybe
that might be a third case. Well, I look at that.
You look at the time frames when San Antonio happened,

(13:45):
we were testing the Trinity bomb, the prototype. A lot
of things were going on at White Sands back then
that would or could attract attention.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Right, And that's interesting. So we're reporting on this apparent whistleblower,
Jake Barber. It seems that he was hired by a
either the c i A or FBI or some other
agency outside of the Air went the Air Force, which

(14:24):
is interesting. So that that tells me that there there
was already a program, an existent program. Uh. And there
might be then a direct line from the case that
the retrieval that he was speaking of all the way
back to something like the Aztec incident.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
I'm sure there were.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Is Is there a thread somewhere we could pull?

Speaker 2 (15:00):
Look how really badly the Roswell crash was botched. There
was no secret. They put it on the page that
the Army Air Corps had retrieved a disc. Then they
retracted it once they somebody told them, we don't want
that to be made public. As Tech happens eight months later.

(15:21):
They seem to have cleaned up their act quite a bit.
The recovery at as Tech took about two weeks, and
you know, to make light of it, they did everything
but vacuum the crash site when it was over, rearrange
re landscape the whole bit. I don't and as Tech

(15:43):
still got out, so you would think, you know, as
time went on they would perfect it. They would have
a designated retrieval crew. As a matter of fact, one
of the cleanup groups that we interviewed a gentleman for
as Tech. He went in great detail how they re

(16:04):
landscape the area, they replanted trees, and that he was
part of a retrieval and not just flying saucers, anything
that came from the air space, prototype rockets, satellites, prototype aircraft,
some of the more ours that he was retrieving, and
they had to really very be careful. New Mexico was

(16:26):
loaded with Soviet spies after World War two, and during
World War two they were loaded with Nazi spies because
everybody knew, that's if you're in the intelligence community, everybody
knew New Mexico was a hotspot. That's what it was
going on.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
All right. And the counterargument is that that's exactly the
reason why we expect something like the UFO couldn't be
covered up is because there was a leak in the
Manhattan Project, there was a Russian spies. Because the roswell
was that it was a boggled you know, a fumble

(17:05):
of a cover up for a weather balloon program or
Project Mogul or what have you, and people use that
to support the idea that the government just can't hold
these big secrets secret very long.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Well, probably some that's true, but we have seen how
they learned from each experience and through Roswell, and by
the time ASTech happened, they had different rules and REGs
in place that they were more efficient, they knew how

(17:42):
to cover things. They they just had an operation and
I don't know that they really have that before and
then the day that as tech happened and the next
day there is a fellow researcher, Bob Coefort, that has

(18:03):
done research on the fact that there were rules and
REGs that changed remarkably the day and the day after
the Aztec incident happened. So their systems continually changed, and
it was a growth. I mean, you just saw growth
in how they went about their systems. And so I think,

(18:29):
you know, you're right that it is hard to keep
a secret of something of this nature, but they were
constantly learning on how to do that. And then I'm
sure that there were other probably cases after that that
they applied and then learned from that.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
So I think what makes it hard to accept also
is and again with Jake Barbara telling his story of
something I think what I think you said twelve years
ago something like that. Again, in like a barren desert place,
there's some you know, egg shaped white egg shaped object

(19:10):
that need to be retrieved. Why are they always in
the desert? It seems almost too too coincidental, too easy.
Why not you know, near the Garden State Parkway in New.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Jersey, Well, in the desert in this country as well
as the Soviet Union and China, that's where all the
military training goes on, prototyping and R and D development.
So you know, in the desert, it's pretty barren. Look at,
New Mexico is the sixth largest state and one of

(19:48):
the least populated. Eighteen or nineteen percent of the land
in New Mexico could actually be bought by people. The
rest is controlled by either the Indian Reservation or the
US government, And so I totally understand why the government
would want to put a Los Alamos or Sandy National Labs,

(20:11):
Clovis Air Force Base, whatever in the desert, because that's
pretty desolate it was back then it is now.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
And as far as that, when you think about whether
you're talking about trinity or talking about some of these things,
there's a lot of activity that can be seen a
great distance, especially back in those days near the desert.
You know, the Aztec incident actually starts near Los Alamos

(20:42):
and Cuba, New Mexico. That's where they saw the sightings.
The craft that actually ended up in Aztec was kind
of shading like a leaf as it flew ended up
in Aztec, so you know, it was actually near Lost
Animals where they saw for over a month lots of sidy.

(21:06):
So you know, again, think of all the activity going
on Lost Animals.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Can you share any new revelations that people can expect
to read more in depth about in the upcoming book.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, we've Right after the second book came out, I
was driving down to Savannah, Georgia, and Suzanne called me instead.
I've had an interesting talk with a gentleman. He thinks
he knows a little bit about Aztec. So I got
about another three hour drive of nothing. Send him through
and he he called me immediately, and yeah, we get

(21:46):
a lot of these and at first they sound pretty
spectacular and unbelievable, but again after two thousand, what was
that fifteen second book, so we're looking at, you know,
ten years ago, and he passed away. He was getting
up in years and wanted to get his story on record,

(22:08):
like they all do when they get old. And he
told a story that he worked as a outside contractor
at right Patterson Air Force Base and gave me all
the companies he had worked for, and we went through
and checked his tax records and Dayton and school records

(22:29):
for his daughter, and real estate taxes that he and
his wife paid. And you know, that doesn't prove that
he worked on a UFO, but it definitely gives providence
to the fact that he was in Dayton, Ohio when
he said he was. And he told of the company
he worked for, which I won't say on the show.
I'm probably going to we'll probably put it in the book.

(22:54):
It was a very technical company for back in nineteen
fifty two fifty three started there. And he said, reading
your book, you're describing the craft we worked on it,
right Patterson.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Interesting, Yeah, you don't have you don't have to shake
your head that. I'm thinking Bettel in my mind, but
you know, but maybe not. Maybe that was a little
bit later Betel Memorial.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah that no, no, well, actually it was a division
of Eastman.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Kodak Ah Interesting, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
And which somebody calls you and says, I know something
about UFOs and I worked for a division of Eastman Kodak.
You're thinking, okay, this better be good. But everything and
the instrumentation that he worked on, if you pull the
manual up, he actually wrote the manual for it.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
So you know, wow, that now, that's that's a great discovery.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Is a very good knowledge of that equipment.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
That's and what you'll include that like those documents in
the book and that sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Whatever we have, whatever we have.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
It's all going in because you're not doing this again.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
We're done really.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Well. And I was going to say, do you guys
get the chance as much as you would like, or
maybe you can't because of your your own busy lives,
But to get out there and do you know in
person presentations at these conferences and that sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Not many.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
Sometimes we do sometimes, I mean we we have a
lot going on in our life and so yeah, and
that and that makes it extra hard right now to
get to get that book done. But yeah, we do
get out and speak sometimes. We earlier, let's say, last
we did mcmonville and we enjoyed them a time there.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
I'd like to get out there someday.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
Really, it's well done. Good people, And and I think
you're really thirsty for information, and so are you?

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Is that I don't know where, but are you able
to get to the Trent ranch? Is that are the
property there? Or is it just held somewhere else?

Speaker 2 (25:07):
We No, it's it's held downtown mc Menville. Okay, beautiful
little town too. Just you're about forty minutes south of Portland.
We flew into Portland. It's a short drive. We did
not go out there because time didn't permit it. But
I hear parts of the old farmers still there.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Okay, yeah, all right, I'm going to step back just
just a moment. The aztec Ufo crash. Do we know
anything about reverse technology, reverse engineering of the technology, because
you know Philip Corso, we know his story about Roswell.

(25:49):
Is there anything like that related to the aztec Ufo?

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Not that we could pinpoint. We couldn't say, well, this
this pen came as a result of technology out of aspect,
but I think a lot of these retrievals have produced
an abundance way you know, we kind of get hit
on this in the book and kind of like Corso
did too. Look at the when Kevlar was invented, nomechs

(26:19):
from DuPont, well DuPont did nomes and Kevlar the transistor
by Bell Labs. There there is a very interesting timeline
on all this technology.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
And now you have to look into Kodak.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
What's that?

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Now you have to look into Kodak and see if
there's any You know.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
They a lot more than film, which I did not realize.
They had their fingers and a lot of things kind
of like Singer sewing machine. Their biggest thing was not
singer sewing machines. They were a big defense contractor. And
a lot of these companies what we know as a
consumer are not what the stockholders and the board of

(27:02):
directors know is where the profit comes from.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
I might mention and if you want to discuss this
the scientists that worked on the craft, do you want
to talk about that where they went with that? It's
fascinating to see. I don't know that this is directly
shows you what happened or that this came from Aztec,

(27:26):
but it's an awfully big coincidence. So do you want
to go ahead?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
As we were going through Frank Scully's book, which we
really paid a lot of attention to his claims, and
the reason being we highlighted everything chapter by chapter that
he said and researched it to death, and we couldn't
find a flaud even the claims he made. That all

(27:53):
back in nineteen forty three, during World War two, we
had an instrument that could find so many submarines in
one day. We found out that was absolutely true, and
it was all made well, it didn't seem like that, right.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
It seemed possible to seem fantastic.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, these were all fantasy island, and even in nineteen
forty eight, they're also that way. In nineteen fifty fifty
two Night, We'll go back to September nineteen fifty when
Frank Scully's book came out. People read Scully's book and
went no way. And so we went historically to the dates,

(28:32):
and sure enough, there was equipment made during World War two,
and it was a company that had some interesting scientists.
And after World War two they went public and you
know what that company's known today as trw Oh wow,

(28:54):
Okay Instruments.

Speaker 3 (28:56):
Texas Instruments took a jump really the game.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, And it was.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
The scientists that worked on the Aztech craft, so you know,
again could be a big coincidence.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
And not so much worked on the craft, but worked
on the technology leading up to where Frank Scully heard
about it. He talked about Doctor G. Excuse me, I'm
so sorry, but Doctor.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
G was was a combination, we think, right, of multiple scientists.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, eight to nine, And I see why Scully said
eight to nine. There were eight. One died and they
replaced him. So total, if you did a lineup of
all the scientists that worked on it, it was a
total of nine people.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
So that lines up.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
It's perfectly perfect.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
That's astounding.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
And the funny thing was Susan. Susanne and I were
living at a kind of a hotel that long term
because the house that we're talking to you from had
a water pipe break and they had to just completely
remodel the kitchen, the living room, that everything was a mess.

(30:10):
So we had a lot of time on our hands.
And the people that helped us prove that theory the
most were the historical people at TRW. They said, it's
no secret now what we did back then, and here
are the scientists that worked on it. We called that
chapter Doctor G and the Mystery.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Men yeah, Okay, So when does it change the case
from coincidental to probable? Right, Because because you can have
only so many things line up right and corroborate before,
it's no longer just a chance.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
At the point in my life right now, I think
Suzanne's with me too. I no longer believe in coincidence.
It's just too overwhelming and anything. It doesn't mean UFO
is just anything in general, statistically, think I've had as
Suzanne has had. Doctor Thayer has had a very open

(31:12):
mind throughout all our research. You have to or you're
not doing research. You're doing dogma if you don't. To me,
it was always I don't care how hard we work,
how much time we spend, how much money we spend.
If at the end of the day it turned out
it was a local hoax, well then we solve that. Yeah,

(31:36):
and uh, but it doesn't look that way. And you
mentioned earlier, and I'll let Suzanne jump in here, because
I'm kind of hogging the thing you mentioned earlier. There's
some researchers that's still bad mouth aspect. They bad mouth
everybody's work other than their own. If you really, if

(31:57):
you really.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Look, okay, I can see I can see that. Yes,
there there is, there is a precedent in upology, uh
where you're kind of protecting your own island. Yeah, yes,
because because you know, you can make your way, you
can make a living doing that. And then I think

(32:18):
also sometimes it's it's ego.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
M hm.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
Do you look out for yourself that you don't get
caught in being invested so much in it that your you,
yourselves are unable to admit that maybe it's wrong.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
Yeah, well, you know, I think over the years, you know,
when you said, when does it quit being coincidence? There
are lots of coincidences like that that are just knock
your socks, But there are facts that we can prove,
and the majority is the facts that we can prove,

(32:55):
and that's a joy. I mean, Aztec stands out as
a case differently because very differently in the fact that
you have the pre citings up in Los Alamos and Cuba.
You have where they had Lincoln Lapause come in and

(33:15):
do a study on it. They had all types of
police reports. Then we end up with the crash itself,
and the law enforcement and all the witnesses and everybody
that followed it saw it. Then the scientists that actually
worked on it, the cleanup and then the cover up.

(33:36):
And I don't use that term lightly. It's a word
that gets thrown around all the time. But we can
document the cover up too through documentation. And then afterwards
there were continued what's the word occurrences and things that
were done by the government based on the Aztec. So
that's how Aztec stands out very differently. And I wanted

(33:59):
to come in time the fact of when you were
talking Scott mentioned about people that had called it a hoax.
If you look on the Internet, fifty percent of the
time you'll see the word hoax associated with AZTEK. If
you look at Wikipedia, it says of purse, Wikipedia is
what it is.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Well, I mean, that's Wikipedia.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
But I'm just saying some people they live by Wikipedia,
you know. But that's like anything else on the Internet.
A lot of times people don't even have to identify themselves,
they don't have to and responsible for anything. They just
throw it out there. But in terms of the term hoax,
there were three so called researchers that have made that

(34:45):
statement about Aztek. Not one of those three had ever
been to Aztec, had never seen the crash site. And
my description of what I see happen there is if
you go to a movie and you watch three quarters
of the movie or half the movie in your mind,
you already have a picture in your mind of how

(35:06):
it's going to end. Well, if you leave halfway through
and never see the end, you really don't know how
it ends. You make a statement based on halfway through
the movie. Well, life and movies aren't that way. And
what I feel happened with the people that feel it as
a hoax is they didn't follow it all the way through.

(35:27):
If you follow Aztec all the way through and you
watch the end, it's a whole different ball game. And
so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that
they just never got.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Sure. Sure, okay, yeah, that's nice there. But there is
a distinction here with the Aztec Ufo case, and that is,
and you mentioned in your research that fifty percent of
the time it comes up as a hope. In other cases,

(36:03):
even if it's on Wikipedia, it won't be labeled a hoax.
It would be labeled alleged, alleged right alleged, or just
the roswell crash, you know, And then they'll say this
is why it isn't or this is the evidence against
it or for it. In this case, it does get
labeled hoax.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
There's a reason, there's a reason.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
What is the reason that I'm really curious?

Speaker 3 (36:28):
Absolutely, do you want to go ahead?

Speaker 2 (36:30):
If you look at the ros and I'm firmly believe
that Roswell really happened. I wish they could narrow it
down to where the craft happened. I think last night, Look,
there's three crash sites astec. Even if people in the
town that do not even want to hear the word
UFO crash will tell you, oh the mesa, yeah, yeah,

(36:54):
something happened up there, plane crash or something. But it
wasn't flying sasser Well by now, even if it was
the top secret government test plane back in nineteen forty eight,
I think by now we would know it. There's been
other plane crashes east of there that were not talked
about back then. But when we went down to Maxwell

(37:15):
Air Force Base, they did release and say, oh, here's
a Phantom F four before the public knew about those,
and here's this, and here's a bomber. During World War Two,
the crash all the way down to a P eighty
prototype jet outside of Carizozo. But by now the government saying, oh, okay,

(37:35):
you know that's an old airplane. Yeah, we can talk
about it now. Roswell came down and all they had
was a debris field. Perhaps they didn't get any technology
off that crash. Astec. You had a crash that wasn't
really a crash, it was a soft landing, and a

(37:59):
lot of technology was allegedly intact on that craft. So
I'll go out on the lin here. Could it be
that the government got so much incredible technology off the
Astec crash that there's no need to ever bring it
up or talk about it like they allow to be
talked about at Roswell. Did you follow me on that one?

Speaker 1 (38:24):
Yes? I do, though, though I think the reaction to
Roswell was because of the the upswell of attention that got,
you know, in the late seventies into the into the eighties.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, that's when the case was broken by Stan Friedman.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah. Since so then, you mean you had you know,
major Jesse Marcel on the record. I mean that that
that's a big deal.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Very credible guy. H We we've met his family. They
were they're very good people, good people.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
I mean had Oh, go ahead, I'm sorry, go ahead. Well,
I was just gonna say, had someone at that time
also come out and said, hey, wait a minute. You
know a few years earlier, you know, I was overseeing
a cleanup for Aztec. Had that happened, then maybe the
government would have reacted in a similar way and would
have brought much more attention to it.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
If I could mention specifically, the term hoax came from.
There was a Spranke. Scully was the original writer. Scott
mentioned him earlier that wrote about the acid in fifty
nineteen fifty came his book came out, and he wrote

(39:35):
a series of papers and things and was getting ready
to do the book. The scientists had reported to him,
told him in confidence, and he was writing about this incident.
So the next thing that happens is there is a
gentleman by the name of JP Kahn who worked for
the San Francisco Chronicle and very wealthy, independent, wealthy, never

(40:01):
had to work a day in his life, but he
had a desk at the San Francisco Chronicle and kind
of was a big shot, kind of felt he was
a big shot and liked to throw his weight around.
He got a tipped off that Scully was going to
come out with this book. And he went about telling
everyone that, well, I can get that information and I'll

(40:23):
just go ahead and publish a book. And he offered
Scully numerous times quite a sizable amount of money for
the information so he could go ahead and write it.
He thought he had it in the bag, and Scully said,
if you can do it, I could do it. And
you know, I'm certainly qualified to write, and I'll get

(40:44):
the job done. And it was told in confidence to me.
So when Scully turned him down for the final time,
JP Kahn went into such a rage that he had
nothing else to do in his life and went about
discrediting Scully and everyone that was associated and actually wrote

(41:07):
to Jaegar Hoover, We've got letters about that, going back
and forth discrediting Scully and trying to turn this into
a hoax. Plus any of the business people or anybody
that was tied into Scully got discredited. So that's where
it turns into a hoax. That's where I'm saying that

(41:30):
if you were to continue with the story, to follow
through to the end, you would see that was JP
Kahn and that was his chunk of it that he
destroyed or got in.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
And That's all it takes though, right, It just it
just takes one person to change the narrative and nobody
wants to touch it.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
That's exactly it. And so, like you said, that's very
interesting how one person could have such an impact and
label something and have people distance himself for so long
with the Aztec incident, and we used Stanton Friedman, who
was a very dear friend of ours, and Stanton when
he first when Scott first touch base was Stanton. They

(42:15):
spent several hours driving together from Albuquerque up Dastec and
Stanton said, it's in my gray basket. And you know,
that was a term that Stan would work used. And
Stan was such a big fan of it by the
end and so enthusiastic. But he there again moved through
that portion of JP Khan to see the other documentation

(42:37):
all around it.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
And so.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
It is interesting how that hoax came up, just the term.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah, you remind me, you remind me of the Travis
Walton case. Gosh. I can't remember the investigator's name, but
he was part of the ground Saucer Watch. He initially
had the opportunity to meet with Travis and arranged for
what was supposed to be a doctor's check up, and

(43:04):
it turned out to not be a real doctor, and
so there was a lack of trust there. And then
when Apro came in, he was so furious he led
in the media. He initially led as this is a
real case, and all of a sudden flipped and started
attacking the Travis Waltsmon case because he no longer was

(43:27):
the UFO investigator of choice.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Right, and that Phoenix I can't remember his name.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
I can't remember his name, but it was from ground Saucer.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Watch about ten minutes after the show's over. I'll remember
another another point I wanted to throw in. And when
Stan was in the car with me, back then Highway
forty four, which is our highway five fifty was two
lane road, so it's not the great highway it is today.

(44:00):
So I had stand captive in my SUV for three
and a half hours and in the center console I
had a bunch of documents that he wasn't aware of.
And Stan looked at me and said, kid, you got
three and a half hours to convince me about ASDA.
So I said Stan, I'm not trying to convince anybody
of anything. My deal is to get the documents to

(44:22):
see whether this was a real event or not. I
opened up the console and handed him a two Manila
files and he read. He was as quiet as a mouse.
He said, we need to keep digging on this. So
I kind of felt like that was a big change
right off the bat. But over the years we had

(44:42):
Timothy good come over from England. He was at the
crash site. We had ted Phillips before his death. He
came to the crash site and pointed out a bunch
of physical evidence that we missed over the years. But
that was his deal as evidence guy, and a very
good one, probably the best of course, Stan Friedman, Stan Gordon,

(45:06):
who's very familiar with the Kecksburg crash. He had been
following our research. A lot of good people. When you
see that it's Suzanne and Frank Thayer and I that
write the books, there's a lot of people behind us
doing the research. We mentioned Bob Coeford earlier, very good
researcher out of California.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
We've been really, really fortunate, you know, when I don't know.
I tried to think of every everyone as a team
and that this is a positive thing because you're trying
to qualify or disqualify something that really is life changing,
and I mean world shakes the world. It's just an

(45:51):
amazing thing.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
And so.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
If you're coming across with truthful, credible information, and I
think it's very very powerful, you're just in there to
sell a story. Well, that's your business too. But I
don't like when when things get blurred because some things
are science fiction and some things aren't, and so and
and that is part of the reason why we don't

(46:16):
speak at a lot of conferences.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
I do think that the case deserves more attention, which
is why I'm wanted to have you guys back on
and And actually it was a reaction to to just
seeing the kind of treatment the case got online. You know,
it bothered me. Not that anything shouldn't be scrutinized. Of course,
that's perfectly fine. That's good. It's good to be skeptical.

(46:43):
But it was just the how, the how of the
scrutiny that I that I didn't like. Now that begs
another question, is there any material have have we all
just been wasting our time looking for residual material from
any of these any of these crashes, not just as Aztec.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Meaning like electronic material.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, fragments of the vehicle or what have you.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Well, like we go back, we said earlier, the Aztec
crash was virtually intact. It had a broken porthole window, which.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Is how they entered the soft crash.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, very soft crash. Not again like Roswell where there's
a half mile long or whatever degree filled. The gentleman
that we interviewed extensively that claim to work on the
craft at right, Patterson, he left in nineteen fifty seven,
and he said, we knew the same amount in nineteen

(47:44):
fifty seven about that craft as we did the day
it showed up, which was nothing they had not They
tried to back engineer and the craft was way too
ahead of the technology fifty seven.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
Now. But there are other things that were found inside
the craft. Yeah, flat screen TVs, what we would call
flat screen TVs, similar objects to like a CD. What else,
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
There were some strange wafers found on board. There were
extremely high in protein and the water although we would
refer to it today as heavy water like they have
in Norway which they use in atomic research. The water
was a few molecules heavier than what we would have

(48:36):
on this planet.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Interesting and it sounds like there was Lambus bread on
the craft as well. I'm sorry Lambis bread for the
Lord of the Rings Fans.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
A little flow tonight. I'm a little bit.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
I don't know if you were a Lord of the
Rings fans or not.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
I'm too old for that. But the other thing I
wanted to bring up we were we were touching base
on documents. One of the things that doctor Bruce mccabee
gave to Stan Friedman and I and Suzanne was a
document when he was writing his book The UFOs and
the FBI or FBI and the UFOs I forget, we

(49:14):
have it here. He came across an Aztec document that
talked about a sting operation that they tried to pull
off in downtown Denver at the Adelwece Bar and Bruce said,
this is an important document. It involves the CIA, the

(49:35):
United States Army, the Air Force, and the Baltimore Sometimes.
And Bruce said, you need to take these documents and
run with it. And Stan and I would laugh. Over
the years, I'd say, Stan, how many Roswell documents that
talk about a joint sting operation with the CIA, the
Air Force, the Army, and the Baltimore Son Times in

(50:02):
downtown Denver at a bar call excuse me, the eight
of whis Bar. And this is the whole document. Anyway,
I contacted the Army there are archives, and I just
sent him an email and said, what do you have
on this date with this story behind it? They came back,

(50:23):
we don't have anything. We have to have something because
you're marked on the document. Show us a copy of
the document. So I sent it to them, and of
course they came back with we don't go back that
farign documents. Therefore we don't have a copy of it.
Therefore case closes, we're not involved. It's amazing. I mean,

(50:46):
it's black and white. Maccabee got it from the FBI.
I called the Sun Times, got a hold of their
the best investigative reporter they have, Joe Burris. Joe said, big,
the information on it, you know, nobody would still be
here from that timeframe. Well, anyway, we got to who

(51:08):
would have been the investigative reporter for the Baltimore Sun
Times back then? And I may be saying there was
the Baltimore Sun, there was the Baltimore Sun Times. They
merged and became whatever, And so I got ahold of
that gentleman retired down on the Jersey shore. He said
absolutely whoever posed as a Baltimore Suntimes reporter back then

(51:33):
was not from the Baltimore paper. So somebody is at
the bar having good black and white pictures of the
Aztec crash, and he wants twenty five hundred bucks for
the package, and of course they all move in on him,
and of course he doesn't have any photographs on him.

(51:53):
But he had told the agent before, we'll meet at
the bar. When we have a deal, go and get
the photographs. Well they didn't go and get the photographs.
They should have let this thing operation kind of take
a little bit longer. The gentleman had all kinds of
credentials that he was from the Baltimore Sun Times. Said

(52:14):
he was pulling a stunt on the receiver and that
he had had too much to drink and the whole
thing was a hoax, and they let him walk right out.
That that whole story doesn't even make sense.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
Yeah, but the.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
FBI and the CIA took it very serious, very serious.
They were heavily involved for something that supposedly didn't happen.
Agents and time and energy.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Sure, there's all kinds of you know fake stories and
you know made up stories, hook stories people who want
attention and then don't go and arrest everybody who's got,
you know, a wild tale to tell or yeah, sweep
in on them. Sure, I have a really good point
here from or WU writers made a really good point

(53:03):
in chat and they say the Italians in German and
Germans were reverse engineering UFO craft since nineteen thirty three.
If you accept that there was a crash in Italy
in nineteen thirty three, then you know that we're talking
about decades before the ASTech or Roswell crash. Did those

(53:28):
countries have a chance to reverse engineer any of that technology?
And if so, I would imagine that after the war,
just the United States would have when you consider Operation
paper Clip, we would have gotten some of those reverse
engineer technologies or craft or if they actually did reverse engineer.

(53:49):
Now considering we're talking about technology that could be light
years ahead of us, maybe they had this technology, just
like you said, from forty five to fifty seven, they
couldn't make any progress on it. So maybe from thirty
three to forty five they couldn't make any progress on
these crashed retrieval. But it does kind of beg the question,

(54:13):
did Germany actually have something of a head start on this.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
They could have. They The rumors are they had what
they called the glock, which not to be confused with
the firearm, but the glock was really meant the bell,
the bell, and that's that's been rumored for years. If
they had it, I don't think Stan Friedman and I
used to brainstorm these kind of questions as we traveled.

(54:41):
Stand brought up a good point. If he gave Christopher
Columbus a brand new Neptune class nuclear powered sub set here,
you don't have to worry about the wind, you don't
have to worry here, Get in it and drive and
take it back to Italy, take it wherever you want
and back engineer it.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
It would be impossible.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
And maybe, yeah, yeah, maybe, talking that type of time
frame in years or generations, it's it's like a linear story,
but it's it's absolutely true that I don't feel that
Roswell was the first UFO encounter. I think Cape Girardo

(55:25):
there's a lot of life in that one took that
got the military and law enforcement pretty active.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
If they did have these earlier crash retrievals, whether in
Europe or here. Do you think that then? Okay, so
they would have totally stagnated, they would have made zero progress.
Or by the time the Aztec UFO was retrieved, did
they learn something?

Speaker 2 (55:55):
I don't think if back in thirty three the German
now we know they wouldn't, but the Germans and the
Italians would have said to the US, hey, help us,
look at we encountered. I don't think we had the
technology back then.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
But on the same token, there were jumps in technology
during that time.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
Too, right, Well, they were jumps in technology in the fifties.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
Well that's true, Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
We have another good question from Rob Rigo in Chet
and that is regarding the photos that the faux reporter
never had. Do you think that photos did exist?

Speaker 2 (56:36):
That's yes point, yes, yes, I think there were multiple
sets of photographs. A researcher that died back in two
thousand and four, Chris Evans. Chris was out of Charleston,
our bedroom community at Charleston, West Virginia. He wrote a
very good book and its half designated to the Aztec Crash.

(57:02):
He did some amazing research, made multiple trips to the
West coast, met with people that are no longer with
us now. But Chris was really a leading edge researcher
and got there as they were elderly, and one of
the people told him that yes there were photographs. They

(57:23):
were black and white. They knew how to get a
hold of them, but they never would. There was too
much at stake with the photographs being released. And I
don't think these photographs that Chris Evans talked about are
related to the Denver, Colorado adaweis bar. I think they're
two separate ones. And getting back to that, I don't

(57:47):
mean to jump in here, but the FBI report at
the end in their wrap up said they did not
believe the reporter and basically said, we think there were photographs.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Also, a gentleman that was the procurement officer that we've
done research on and spoken to, and he actually saw
pictures of it when they would send him things that
they needed. This is what we need to accomplish. He
actually saw pictures of the craft.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
This was during the recovery at the crash. I see
he was down at Walker Air Force Base, which was
formerly Roswell Army Air Base. And we know he was
for real because we found him in his name and
documents surrounding Astek and found out he was still alive.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Now I'm assuming you did, but did you thoroughly vet
all of the known witnesses that you could, you know,
just to see did they have any you know, history
of I don't love criminal behavior or the like.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
That's one of the things that when we have a
new people fuss with us a little bit because when
they say, what takes you to do your research so long? Well,
when Scott was describing the gentleman that contacted us on
the phone about working for the subsidiary of coded that
that was just an example. But every single one of

(59:27):
the witnesses we really try to scrutinize them heavy, find
out to talk to people, find out about their history,
their past, anything about them to give them credibility. And
it's not just taking their advice or their their information
for granted, it's it's much deeper. But we usually with

(59:51):
each new chunk of information like that, it takes us
about two years to fully do it, so you know,
it's it's a lengthy process and on a people don't
want to spend that much time doing that. But we
have found that the cream does rise to the top.
And that we we find out the good from the bad.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
You got your time to your point. You got to
vet the people with early things, real estate records of
that type of thing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Anything and and it's real estate and things like that,
but it's personal things too about them and and and
interviewing them. Sometimes you can get more information by really
focusing on them, listening to their story and following up
on those details too. It's all really important.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
If you can leave us with one thought, what would it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Be It's been a long day.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Yeah, another feeling a full week here? Yeah, well, and
thank you again for coming on because I know Susannic.
You know you have a very busy schedule that Scott,
so yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
It's been crazy. I think the best piece of advice
is one that we try to follow. Do your own research.
Don't read a book or two books or three books.
Read everything. If you have an interest in something, read
everything you can about it. Look at Frank Scully first

(01:01:29):
book nineteen fifty, Bill Steiman first book nineteen eighty one,
Really hit the Street about eighty five, Chris Evans two
thousand and four, two thousand and five. Our books, each
one brings something to the party. We don't try to
Bill Steiman. He left us four years ago. He passed

(01:01:51):
away of a heart attack. I used to kid Bill
and say, Bill, I'd like to know what you've forgotten
a good night's sleep about Aztec. I was really brilliant.
But and Bill, when I first met Bill said, don't
worry about what I have that didn't make it into
the book. Go do your own damn research and then
come back and see me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yeah. I like that. When we're coming here from Rodrigo,
he says they should have done an X Files episode
with Scully and Mulder meeting Suzanne and Scott. Im just saying, hey.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
Let me just mention that there is an episode. There's
a couple episodes that they do oft at Farmington, New Mexico,
which is right next to Aztec run and two when
the new version of X Files came out, the short
lived I can't remember which episode it is, but as

(01:02:47):
it comes in, the craft comes in, it's almost for.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Almost I know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
I know Chris has read our stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Oh, I'm sure they they must devour all this. I do,
I do, I do hope because that they are rebooting this,
Chris Carter is having a new director come in it
seems to reboot the series, or not reboot but continue,
And I think it sounds like like, uh Molder and

(01:03:19):
Scully will be sort of these sage like characters where
the new investigators can go to for you know, advice
and that sort of thing. I think if they could
just retcon a little bit of the last reboot that
they did, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Well the last scene they mentioned as yeah, they actually.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Mean I'll have to go back and watch that. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Yeah. And by the way, just so we want to
make this real clear, our dog's name. Yeah, we spend
so much time on this topic. You know, we got
to keep in the family. But it's Frank Scully. And
when you look at Dana Skelly and the X Files,
her name is comes from Frank Scully, the original author.

(01:04:08):
So I think that's I'm amazed people hear that and
they'll say, oh, Dana Scully. Well right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
So what I'm thinking is that if they indeed go
through with this and continue the X File series, hopefully
they will take up Rodrigo's suggestion and have an episode
where they meet you. So let's leave it on the table.
It's not we can't rule it out yet.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Well, I know he has our book because I sent
him the second book.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
And the third one. You've got to send out too.
I will, I will thank you so much, guys. I
really appreciate this conversation and I do look forward to
the next book coming out. Anyone who's listening, please check
out the Aztec Incident dot com for more information and
where else can they can they find your book.

Speaker 3 (01:04:55):
When it comes out. If you go to the website,
you're probably going to be the best in action. There's
an email if you want to email me, I'll put
you on the list and I'll let you know when
it comes out. The new name of the book is
going to be It Came to Earth at Aztec, New Mexico,
revealed the recovery of a UFO and so. But again,

(01:05:17):
you've got the website on there. If you go there,
just drop me a little note and then I'll just
make sure that we let you know when the book's ready.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
And for people listening, where do they email?

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
Shoot?

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
If you go to the website.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Through the portal, Okay, I will do that. That's all right.
Website's easy enough. Everybody can find it. And I'll put
the website in the show description as well, so y'all
can can find it down there.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
So much fun. We just thank you for you and
so proud of you the work that you're doing. It's
so important. So thank you so much for sharing time
with your your wonderful audience.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
And that means a lot coming from you, guys, I
really appreciate it's good to see you. And hey, even
if this is your last book coming out, I hope
you'll be open to coming on again sometime in the
future of course.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Always.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Okay, awesome, Thanks guys, have a good night, all right,
and thank you everybody for joining us. Thank you for
all the comments and the questions. I really appreciate you.
If you like this podcast, coffee and UFOs, please subscribe
to this YouTube channel. It's YouTube dot com, slash Mystic
Lounge and wherever you listen to your podcast. If you
can rate it as high as you can and give

(01:06:31):
it a great review, I'd really appreciate that. The numbers
keep going up and we continue to have awesome guests
like Scott and Suzanne Ramsey here tonight. So that's all
thanks to you. Let's keep this going. In the meantime,
you can always find replays of this podcast on the
ONEX Network eleven pm Pacific time and two am Eastern

(01:06:53):
on Fridays. And of course you can follow me on
Mystic Lounge on Facebook or you know, I probably post
the most show updates on Instagram, and that would be
at coffee and UFO's podcast on Instagram. Until next time, everyone,
peace and love, keep your eyes to the skies and

(01:07:14):
live in the mystery.

Speaker 3 (01:07:21):
It's good to be in purgonly.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
I wish more of us would think of ourselves that way.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):
I don't have a problem with skeptics, it's de bunkers
that are on some other level that I don't understand.

(01:07:55):
Essentially an inference of a change in local gravity, saucer
shaped craft and they're hovering over the water.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
Good Book, Special Report fourteenth. The better the quality of
the sighting, the more likely to be unexplainable,

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Update on the 1948 Aztec UFO Crash | A True Story or Complicated Myth?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Update on the 1948 Aztec UFO Crash | A True Story or Complicated Myth?