June 17, 2024 • 44 mins
Bienvenidos a Con Las Pilas Puestas! En este episodio, exploramos cómo la pandemia afectó las relaciones amorosas y afectivas, desde las dinámicas familiares hasta las experiencias individuales.Junto a Cindy Caro, oficial de cumplimiento del Protocolo que previene y atiende las violencias basadas en género y las discriminaciones de la Universidad del Rosario, y Laura Rozo, psicóloga del equipo que acompaña este tipo de casos, conversamos con Sara Farfán, estudiante de séptimo semestre de historia, sobre su experiencia personal durante este período.
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(00:00):
Start a space for you where learningand reflection will allow you to get to
know yourself better and focus on personalchange. If you like to learn about
your emotions, about love and otherelements of psychology applied to everyday life.
This is your space. The RosaristCenter of Emotional Education or ERE Emotion and
(00:21):
u Rosario Radio present the podcast sagawith the stacks set where you will find
keys to your personal growth and tobuild a better life hello. We welcome
you to your program with the stacksthat are broadcast through digital waves, from
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the institutional station of the University ofRosario a Rosario Radio, a space that
brings you reflections on various topics suchas interpersonal relations, emotional management, inclusion
and equity. This space is designedso that all people who listen to us
can have tools that allow them toconnect with themselves and with others he speaks
to them unionized. I am thecompliance officer of the protocol that prevents tending
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gender- based violence and discrimination inthe University of Rosario, and today I
am accompanied by two very special guests. Laura Rosso, psychologist of the team
that accompanies cases of violence based onengineering and discrimination at the University. Good
for you, Laura, how areyou? Thank you very much, cindy
very well, and Sarah Farfan isalso with me. She is a seventh
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semester student of History at the Universityof Rosario. Sara' s twenty-
one and she' s a student. One of the classes that I offer
and I invited her because she isa very busy student and I found it
very interesting to be able to sharetoday the topic that we have prepared.
Welcome back, Sara, how areyou? Good morning. Thank you very
much, well, well. Iam very happy because today I want to
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tell all the people who are listeningto us that we have prepared an issue
that has to do with a pastthat feels very far away, but it
really was a very short time agoand it is the issue of the pandemic
and we wanted to talk to youand give you a few discussions that we
have had about how we live thepandemic differently two generations, not the young
(02:16):
people who were living the pandemic andparticularly how the young people lived that pandemic
world, bearing in mind that theywere living a very particular stage of their
lives as well. So, that' s why we brought Sara and it
' s in that world called apandemic. What happened? So, here
the conversation is mostly about our friendSara, and we have some questions for
her. And so on that wewant to start, because how you lived
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the pandemic, how old you were, what you were doing in which course
you were, so tell us.A little good pandemic. I was seventeen
when he hit the pandemic. Iwas studying at school and how it was
calendar B for March. I wasfinishing eleven and that' s why I
graduated virtual and started college to livethat same year. Initially it was like
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understanding a little how the school wasgoing to become something virtual, because even
the school didn' t know howto accommodate virtual classes and from one moment
to another start using as tools likeMEAD and all these things that in the
end, all they did was becomea little extraneous to that learning process.
And the grade was getting my diplomafor being my delivery, giving the grade
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words by zoom I gave them andI dropped the Internet at that time.
Then it was my turn to getoff the computer, connect from the cell
phone, and when I got online, the rector was saying how good we
' re waiting for Sara to getback on her Internet. I don'
t know what. And that wasmy grade. And then it was like
eating sushi at home with my parentsas I got the diploma in delivery.
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Then it was a little difficult.During those dates I learned that I had
had the opportunity to earn a scholarshipat the Universidad del Rosario and the only
requirement was to start studying that semester. Immediately following, I had some plans.
Everything was as in the unknown andin the end I decided to go
to study history, obviously virtual.My induction was terrible, because the university
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had never done a virtual induction andthen there wasn' t like the virtual
campus tour. But the platform fellor did not have the updated information.
I just went in to study history. So we were my director and I
were like presenting the program to eachother. Then it was a little strange.
Sara tell us, a little bitabout what your social life was like
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before the pandemic, because I havealways been a person with a very small
social group since school. I hadfew friends and always got along better with
men than with women. But whenhe gets into the pandemic, like,
if we finish classes, we stoptalking to my friends at school, so,
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naturally, we kind of isolate eachother from everyone and sometimes like there
was the attempt to do jobs togetherand all that, but no one kind
of was very interested in maintaining thoserelationships and I wasn' t trying either.
That' s why you missed school, not for me. The school
was a very tense social space,where to constantly socialize with the people,
(05:19):
where these groups were as a filmof the popular people the gnoños, and
I was like in that half,where I was not a child, but
yes, I was very nyñña,but not so much as to be popular.
Then he was very distressing and Idon' t think I missed him
at all. And when you enteredcollege, something changed. I think that
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space as a virtual college study didn' t feel very different than when I
was in school in a virtual way. So I just kind of didn'
t feel the need to socialize withpeople and then I said like what.
But when the teachers started to sayit' s not that it' s
about being a group job and Iwas like ok because I can meet people
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to do the jobs. But thesepeople aren' t going to be my
friends, because it turns someone overto a friend is virtual and in the
end some people ended up getting closeto me. As we do the work
together and these zoom sessions to dojobs, they turn, we finish the
work and we stay talking in ourlives, and so they became my friends
who are still my friends, evenalready finishing, but it' s not
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a very big group. It wasn' t just two friends I made in
virtuality who are still my friends nowsoon. This one felt comfortable with the
pandemic, that is, with thematter of being at home. Yeah,
yeah, I think I' dcome up with something like getting a little
bit out of that attention of havingto socialize every day with people that I
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didn' t like to just haveto deal with my dad and my mom
and just be alone like not stressedout by having to look or say or
like it. And it became likea safe space to the extent that my
only problem, so to speak,was cohabitation with my parents, which was
somewhat less than all the stress generatedby the school. How interesting it was
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when the pandemic ended and they haveto go back to college. You had
this group of friends that' sbest known in zoom. What it'
s like to live a second stageof primi for, because one thing was
that first induction and another thing wasto come and really not know how you
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got to the university, what tolook for which after millennium, well,
it' s a bit of that. When we started the mixed classes,
my friends, the only friends Iever made, they' re foreign.
Then they were very excited about faceto face. But since it was the
third semester and I didn' tknow what I was doing with my life.
I decided to postpone a semester andI said well, I ran out
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of friends because of course everyone wasalready in college interacting with them and I
decided to postpone the semester. Butsurprisingly, these two people were constantly asking
me how and how you did itand what you did while you weren'
t studying if they were still incontact with me, and I was saying
I don' t need any morepeople. Only with these two friends is
enough and when I resumed college thefollowing semester, I said I' m
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fine with these two people. ButI realized that these two people already had
more friends and I was like theywere my only friends to me. So,
at first it was like good.They have other plans other friends bigger
groups, but I' m finewith that, like I don' t
need any more people. At somepoint it changed yes, as in the
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fifth semester for some reason I startedto feel the need or the desire to
go out with people, share withfriends. I saw my friends publish stories
with their college friends, that is, school people, my own college friends.
I met people, yes, butI don' t want to make
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friends' plans. And I wasa person who came to class, the
class was over and I was goinghome. Or I didn' t sacrifice
any moment like the urge to gohome, because the TransMilenium, because he
' s always made up some excusefor me. And a year ago I
started to feel like I wanted toshare with people with different experiences of living
with people my age. When Irealized how s uff I have no friends,
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that is, my only friends.They are two people and these people
also have a social life and arevery friendly. And I then what I
' m going to do and Irealized that I wanted friends but I didn
' t know how to be friendsand I didn' t have friends.
How much Sara says and I realizedthat she had no friends and that there
was or didn' t know howto make friends. What happened there.
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My hypothesis is that Sarah is lockedup with her parents, so to speak,
at a time when adolescents usually beginto discern distances, to disidentify themselves
from their primary nucleus, and toidentify with their peers in that construction of
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identity, and that surely happens asmuch younger than what Sara describes. But
for Sara that social life was astressor. When the pandemic comes in,
she can go back to her safeplace and she doesn' t have to
deal with it. If I startwith someone who identifies who I have in
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common, then he starts to feelsafe at home even further, because they
are in teenagers, they are inthis tension, in disidentifying themselves, but
also the need to still identify withthose who care for them, with their
primary nucleus, with their family.So they' re in this attention and
Sara solves that attention a little bitby staying. We could say in some
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way how in the comfort of childhoodand the lap of his parents and his
mother, and when he enters collegeand he is supposed to already see he
must have developed all these skills thathave to be developed and that the young
also develop because they need it.They need to start generating, to create
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their identity and in that to createtheir present entity, they need autonomy and
in that autonomy they begin to rebeland to generate distances. So that doesn
' t happen in Sara, whenit' s that moment because of the
pandemic, that doesn' t happen. And then when she' s nineteen
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she sees more or less that that' s expected to flow very naturally,
because it doesn' t just happento Sara and she doesn' t just
go through the pandemic. But inthis case it' s very interesting.
I was supposed to start passing Saraso far she' s learning it?
So far you are learning this thatis learned you learn the first semesters seventeen
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eighteen years. So I' mno longer on the road, I don
' t remember and it takes meto the route, but I already generate
the autonomy to fly how I goto the University, what is the TransMilenio.
Meet friends, because they are theones who live near my house,
with whom I walk, with whomI do the work, friends of my
friends, and then I start togenerate links with these people who have things
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in common, that my parents nolonger have with me. And this begins
to happen to the nineteen- twenties, not the seventeen- eighteen, precisely
because the pandemic delays that process.For other young people it was different,
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which was being very identified, beingseparated from their parents and being locked up
with them again. Then it wasa super complex suffering for other teenagers that
for Sara, instead, was amoment of comfort to get to her safe
place. And there I have aquestion for Sara, in addition to these
friends who count your ces you separatefrom your friends from school, you start
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to meet these people by zoom.There are other significant relationships for IT during
the pandemic. Just before the pandemicbegan, I went to a café event
with my school friends and met aboy who also studied at school with me,
but he was a year older thanme and we had friends in common
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that day birthday status. Then byeducation, I greeted him. I told
him happy birthday, have a greattime, but I didn' t talk
to him again the rest of theday until the end. He asked me
how good and you when you turnold and I casually, I' m
turning out in fifteen days, andthen he was like ah, well.
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That was our whole conversation. Fifteendays later. I got a message from
an unknown number telling me oh happybirthday and I like who he is and
he tells me not to look atthat and I remember that we' re
in corpherias. I don' tknow what. I remembered that you were
birthday, I asked your number tothis friend in common that we have and
because he passed it to me andI know what cool I don' t
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know and we started talking, butwe never talked about seeing each other again
was how we thought that or assumedthat naturally, that encounter in person was
going to happen. And so themonths and months went by, and that
was in October and it came inMarch and we were already talking about seeing
that they' re going to quarantineus and it was like uf that crazy.
Not who knows how long that lasts, but we never talk about seeing
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each other. And as you couldsay, naturally, we lasted talking about
the whole pandemic, messages, calls, that sent him a picture and what
he was doing, that told himwhat he was eating, what it was
going to be today, sent himvideos. I don' t know how
to cook things as well as myday to day, locked in the house,
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telling him about my personal life,telling him about my problems, talking
for hours and hours and hours,and when we realized, because already the
pandemic in quotation marks is over.It had already been a year and all
that time we had been talking andit was like my only company during that
time, as constant. It couldbe said that he was the person who
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accompanied you at that time as youseparated from your school friends and as college
friends entered. But you didn't have as a group of friends,
but as a very stable person.Let' s say I think it'
s also about your personality, notlike one more person I don' t
know shy or maybe more reserved.No yes, and I think we also
connect a lot, because he isa person who listens a lot and likes
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to listen to people and I loveto talk. Then it was like hours
and hours where I was talking andtelling him about my day and my childhood
trauma and my favorite color at agesix, and he was listening to me
and at some point I was thinkinghow he' s going to forget everything
I' m going to tell him. But also because we are scattered in
the pandemic and there is nothing elseto do. And when I realized that
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he was genuinely listening to me andI kind of remembered everything I was saying
to him was like ufff who thisperson is, not like what' s
going to happen to this relationship andwhat happened to that relationship. When one
more year goes by, a littleover a year since we started talking,
he tells me how I think Ilike you and I and after the fact
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it was by whatsapp and he sentme a sticker and I' m serious,
like it' s not a joke. Then he was like no,
because I' ve never felt thatway for anyone. Of course, he
had told me about the few thingshe had told me, because he almost
didn' t tell me things likeI' ve never had a girlfriend.
I' m not interested in havinggirlfriends, just my basketball friends and video
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games. Then I told him no, I mean no. You mustn'
t be serious and he was likeno. Yeah, I think I like
you and I said, but youdidn' t like me and he was
telling me why. And me becauseI' ve been talking for a year
and it' s a year I' ve told you all my life and
you' ve told me almost nothingabout you. So you don' t
know yourself for a year talking toyou yes literal was like I don'
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t know you, I don't know anything about you, like something
I say I knew things about him, but not enough to say uf I
also like you. And because hewas as well, I' m going
to do my part and he startedto work out, as he' s
also a very shy person. Thenit took him a lot to tell me
things, but again by message,by call for I don' t know
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what it was like to look ator I did this I ate the other
thing I like. I like thishere and when the pandemic began to relax
at the end of the two thousandand twenty, then we started to get
out. Then go out, eat, go out to I don' t
know what, go out, toa park meet my family, because,
by chance my parents arrived while wewere there for lunch or whatever and after
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six months, since I had declaredmyself. I told him like, okay,
I think I like you already youearned it, yeah, like now
I know you enough. We've lived together long enough then, so
let' s be boyfriends. Ifind it very interesting, because, well,
first of all, even though younarrate that you are a shy person
and because apparently he also got together, they did not come together in their
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shyness, but also they came togethera very strange context, because we were
in pandemic. No, and Ihave, like, several questions there.
I don' t know what timehe thinks, and it' s about
how human nature implied us continuing toapproach someone, yes, even shy or
not, and that even though thepandemic was there, we approached by Whatsapp,
by calls not like we needed tokeep a link. And here'
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s interesting because Sarah kept a bondwith someone she was meeting so far,
still having her parents next door.But, because she was also a young
woman who could not, then,just have that bond of humanity only with
her parents. I mean, itwas like it was important to get someone
and he got it, yeah,just like he was thinking exactly the same
thing and it was that in theend, that need to identify with a
couple was very important and I imagineeverything she shared with him. I would
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even dare to think and you willcorrect me to Sara who shared with him
sometimes more than I felt like sharingwith her parents who were on foot.
Yeah, totally my mom was askingme to spend a lot of time on
the computer and not with them andwe were in the same house. And
it was like, but it's just that he' s more amusing
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than living with my parents. Thennotice that you do give that ID and
that ID, but with only oneperson. Yeah, this having to socialize
and that getting friends. There wasno need, no need, and they
made it easier for each other.Okay. And how easy it was for
him to be friends. He livedsomething like what you lived UFFF. I
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think it' s a very difficultquestion, because he manages to make friends,
but because in college he was alreadypresent. When the pandemic came in,
then he had already had the opportunityto meet people from a job or
induction, but he already had thisnetwork that he manages to maintain during the
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pandemic and that does not change eventoday, as these friends with whom he
began the University stay during the pandemicand remain friends now of the University.
Then I think it was a differentexercise. I don' t know how
he made friends in person because bythat time we didn' t talk and
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we haven' t talked about it, but it did make it much easier
for us to sit next to eachother, do a job together and then
the atmosphere as if we were readyto go out of class and go and
lie down to the grass, becausethere are green areas in the national one
and then let' s eat empanadasand talk about our life, while we
wait for the next class. Butlook, even though he made friends before
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the pandemic, in the pandemic helived with you, let' s say,
he lived with you virtually, thatis, they used to talk together,
because you talked to him a lot, you sent him a lot of
things, that is, you werevery important to him in the pandemic when
they forged his friendship. Not thatyou were his reference. Yeah, yeah,
obviously, and because he was listeningto you, I mean, in
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the end he wasn' t listeningto anyone else. He was listening to
you They become one like each other' s net. Yeah, and even
though you' ve lived that inthat world that was the pandemic, when
you come back, then you toldus that here at the university you already
got some friends. But then yousaid too, because I feel very lonely.
How can I make more friends andthen how was that awakening you me?
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Yes, I already have a couple, yes, I have two friends,
but I think it' s insufficient. First you wake up and I
want more friends. And then,well, and how I do them.
What happened there. I think listeningto her identifies me a lot. This
is kind of going to slow downthe process of adolescence a little, because
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when I realize that I don't know how to make friends, and
it' s a conversation I havewith my friends like that it' s
hard for shy people to make friends, because we don' t know how
to do it. I turn tothese two friends and tell them how I
want to do things and how theyare so outgoing, then sometimes I am
with them and you start then Iam with them and look I present Sara
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and Fulanito and I don' tknow what, but of course, they
meet me. And now it's entirely up to me that this person
that I liked like to forge abond of friendship with this person and that
' s where I start taking actionsas a risk to myself, as in
the midst of my shyness. Andthen greet the person when I meet her
in the hallway or ask her aboutsomething like very unnecessary in order to start
(22:59):
something, but it' s somethingthat costs me a lot, because then
I have to start sacrificing getting tocollege, finishing class and leaving because I
suddenly talk twenty thirty more minutes.So, that involves going spiky in the
TransMilenio in order to meet people andhave plans to share with these people.
And he starts doing a lot ofthings unconsciously or maybe consciously, so he
(23:25):
can connect with more people my age. And that' s from the way
I' m introduced and I'm trying to maintain those relationships that interest
me. As she begins to dothis for your family, Sara, who
was very used and very comfortable,having an age at which others go out
and ask for many permits in thehouse, well resenting that you did not
(23:47):
share as much as they wanted.How you start doing this for your family
when you start wanting out right now, having plans. It' s being
late, because with what we weretalking about, I think that my personality,
a little strategic, started by tellingmy mom not how I met this
(24:07):
person and I liked her then,so that when I was going to ask
for permission, my mom wouldn't tell me and who this person is
and why she came out of nowhere. But even if I tried all these
things, there' s a timewhen I start partying, I start to
release the card at age 20 andmy mom starts again. Besides, it
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' s either time or time.I mean this moment, I have a
three- year relationship where in thosethree years I' ve been out many
times with my boyfriend' s familyand my mom constantly tells me again then
it' s not just asking permissionto go out with my boyfriend' s
family, but with my new friends. And it' s a pain.
I' d say like sometimes formy mom. Not today I' m
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going out with Sotanito, but tomorrowI' m going out with Fulanito.
But the other week I' malso going to meet with x person to
do a job. No, becausethen, of course, the university also
begins to create those spaces where wemeet to do a job and also,
we stay socializing later. And it' s my mom all my life,
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if a person like pulls and loosens, pulls, loosens, but at some
point she started to feel a littleabandoned by me and told me how.
But you' re spending more timewith your boyfriend' s family than you
are with me, and what aboutour family plans? So, of course,
my mom and dad and me,but since my sister isn' t
like she left the house ten yearsago. Then my mom starts to realize
(25:37):
that her company is going to bemy dad and no more the three of
us. I imagine that was verydifficult for your mom, because it was
a little bit that you' realready big, I mean, I'
m already giving the cell to 20, which I find very interesting. She
' s asking for permission and shedoesn' t have any more tools to
say no, because you' realready older, that is, you already
(25:57):
take bus hello, you already haveyour schedule. No, I mean,
it was really hard for her.That created conflicts between you. That'
s how they worked it I thinkso. To this day it still happens
that sometimes I say if I ama good daughter, because they don'
t give me more permission, thatis, I don' t have so
(26:18):
many problems, or I don't cause problems because they don' t
give me more permission. Sometimes Idon' t understand that kind of dynamics
and if it generates a little tension, because then I came to the house
the day I was thinking of goingout, but they didn' t give
me permission. Then my mom tellsme to wash the slab, do this,
do the other thing. And ofcourse, I start bumping into my
mom and I eat my rebellious moment, it' s like ah but why
(26:40):
or then I don' t knowwhat when I know that soon the best
solution is to take her through thegood news to get another permission later.
But still, that doesn' tmake it like it' s less weary
and difficult for my mom and me. How is this for your other friends
you see that there are people whogo through similar things. There are differences
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between men and women in this matterof having more permits to be able to
distance themselves a little more fully.In fact, with my girlfriend, at
some point we had the arguments thathe spent a lot of time in my
house and I almost never went tohis, because once my dad told me
that a girl doesn' t spendthat much time outside the house and less
(27:23):
at the groom' s house.It' s just that a girl doesn
' t do that. So,of course, he was telling me I
' m gonna make a warning thatI' m gonna go out and make
plans, but it' s upto you to ask permission and sometimes that
slows us down like the things wewant to do. So he' s
been in conflict with my boyfriend andmy friends. Sometimes it' s like
(27:44):
a sudden plan came out and Iwait it' s that I have to
call for permission or I have tocall and they' re like. But
why if we' re just gonnastay for a while, if it'
s just like saying you' reokay and it' s like no.
That' s not how it worksand sometimes they make me feel like my
mom' s the bad guy andI say it' s gonna be I
(28:06):
don' t know how I feelbad daughter, thinking that my mom'
s doing things wrong, but sometimesI say but it' s what I
want and my mom doesn' tgive it to me. And it'
s like other women are like whathappens to you. If I think there
is also another variable, and itis if they live alone or if they
are from Bogotá, because my foreignfriends normally, because they live alone,
(28:27):
then they don' t have toask permission, but only report as I
am well, but my friends wholive here in Bogotá and who are from
Bogotá, if they have to askpermission and it' s like this thing
from up to them they pick usup or we go out to party and
pick you up at one because it' s not too late or you don
(28:48):
' t have to go back orif then, I think if it implies
that we are women, that wehave our families here in Bogotá, the
fact of how these dynamics, ofpermission and warning and all that I listen
to Sara, because I have manyquestions. But, then, you laura,
what do you think of this,what do you think of that attention
between wanting to separate, as isthe place where you are, Sara,
(29:10):
from wanting to separate from your parents, because to have your own social life,
etcetera, etcetera, but also thatattention of Sara' s dad and
mom, from wanting to have itand keep it. But besides that she
is a daughter, not that sheis a daughter how you see this,
and also your experience as a psychologist, as you have seen in other spaces,
I was thinking precisely how our lifeexperience is traversed by the moment of
(29:34):
life in which we are, bywhat is happening around us and definitely,
because by gender, surely we candeepen and people who could not go out
to the University have another experience oflife and it was up to them to
live different things. But in thecase of Sara, I am very struck,
precisely as in consultations or when youtalk to young people, these are
(29:59):
precisely what they report many times,not while women have an idea, there
is a need for care, ofan idea that there is a greater risk,
even though statistics tell us that menhave more risky behaviors and that they
die many times more than they areexposed to quarrels. But we still believe
that women are the ones to becared for. And when, well,
(30:22):
in workshops and in different spaces,men often recent just that loneliness and that
difficulty and that not being warned,not having been guided, while women resent,
not all, surely, but recenton the contrary, and there is
no freedom. Well and what itis about when we' re going to
(30:42):
see the statistics of accidentality, ofthe robbery of quarrels, of course also
of sexual violence. What is beingtaken care of by women and why is
men not being cared for? Itis a reflection that I think is important
for us to make. And thenthat' s just going through the genre.
(31:03):
Gender is going through how we aresocialized, how we are cared for
or not cared for, of course. And besides, in fact, now
that I hear you, I alsothink about the care that you can resent
no, and I think that whenI don' t feel careful and think
about the kids, I don't feel careful, because I can get
(31:26):
out and apparently that freedom can beseen as something positive, but in the
long run it can also hurt me. As Sara used to say that pull
and loosen that means like those momsand dads that they' d have to
do with those young people who areasking to get out of the house egg.
No, what you should definitely dowith young people is like a kite.
What I always say when I havethe chance to talk to parents,
(31:48):
and is that if you loose toomuch the kite thread, the comet will
fall And if you pay too muchattention, the thread will break and the
comet will also be lost. Thenthere' s no. I mean,
if I have too much I won' t allow at that moment. The
young person needs to disidentify because heneeds to generate autonomy, he needs to
(32:15):
create his different identity. So,when I don' t allow that,
because I' m not allowing anythingelse and nothing less to grow when we
think of too authoritarian parents. Butwhen the opposite happens and then it doesn
' t matter. I have noidea where he is or what he'
s doing. Precisely at this stageof life, the frontal lobe has not
(32:39):
yet been completed. So sometimes thereis no awareness about the danger of planning
like those things that give us preciselyhow to generate criteria. The approach has
not yet been finalized. I don' t make the smartest decisions at that
(33:00):
time in life, I' malso easily influenced. I need the guide
many times. Then there you getvery easy into risky behaviors and many young
people who then have trouble consuming situationsreport having been very alone during adolescence and
(33:22):
many young people, by the waythe male, yes, I have also
heard it in women, which isstrange because they are usually more careful,
precisely because of what we talked aboutearlier. But yes, many, many
young, male, but I havealso listened to women. I think part
(33:43):
of what' s happening to meright now, I grew up very alone.
Nobody cared. Then I think thatthere both authoritarianism and negligence, we
could say, generate violent sob.Listening to Laura, you, what Sara
thinks about your mom' s attitudein terms of good negligence, not authoritarianism,
(34:08):
maybe not like you see it,I think it was my mom.
She has done her job well withwhat she has had and but it seems
to me also important to recognize thatlet' s say the upbringing she gave
to my sister may have been differentbecause of what my sister takes me fourteen
years, it was another time toother situations and also, my personality is
(34:32):
very different from that of my sister. So I think that' s why,
like the fact that there are thingsI' m not interested in,
that several parents might find problematic,it' s a problem that my mom
' s not going to have,because I' m genuinely not interested in
doing that kind of thing, likedrug use, marijuana. Of all that,
then let' s say it's been like a lucky thing,
(34:52):
maybe like where my mom' sdone things right, with what she'
s been able to do and withwhat she' s got. But it
also coincides with what she considers tobe very problematic. It doesn' t
catch my eye. So, anyway, I love my parents a lot,
both of them, and I thinkthey do what they can and many parents
try it that way, and itdoesn' t mean that when there are
(35:14):
upsets and that they are bad parentsand where that will come from that doesn
' t catch your attention, becauseyou think that there are people who attract
attention or another not in your case. Well, we can' t talk
for the ones that catch their attention, but in your case, because that
kind of thing doesn' t catchyour attention. UFFF. I don'
t know, I' ve neverbeen asked, and I think it goes
(35:36):
hand in hand with the fact thatI have colleagues and acquaintances who have had
negative experiences with drug use. Orthat, because I say neither that I
try or that I become curious,because I have to listen to the experiences
of others. I can' ttell you exactly It' s just something
that doesn' t catch my eyeOther things, she' s been talking
(35:59):
a lot here. I want to. I' d like to start by
closing I am, because there aresome conclusions and one is that the pandemic
definitely changed the way we related,but it didn' t change that we
didn' t relate. I mean, obviously the relationship was maintained, the
human contact, but mutated, mutatedto call das, mutated to write to
us. And interesting because particularly thecase of Sarah tells us that she met
(36:22):
people in the pandemic, where sheapproached them by these new means and that
she kept what should usually be maintainedin terms of adolescence, which is to
get a little away from parents.But in the same place, then,
of course, that distance was notradical, but was much more controlled than
in a place where there was nopandemic. And here, then, it
(36:45):
seems to me that another conclusion isalso that this non- radical departure made
that perhaps the place of the lifeof adolescence, as that way of separating,
will also die, not to say, a little adolescence where Sarah was
not sixteen, seventeen, but ratherright now you see twenty- one and
at this moment you are living itin terms of getting away and so on.
And that implied a movement too,a movement I don' t know
(37:07):
if there one could say yes,there is a change in terms of what
the pandemic meant for these situations.What do you think Laura, yes,
of course she had to live thosemoments, that cycle and such in the
pandemic. It definitely had to havebeen. Or it is decisive for the
(37:30):
development of life some, because thathad to be postponed, that being able
to live certain things, had tobe postponed and is being lived in another
moment that, moreover, already hasother freedoms and that, then, also
implies other difficulties. I' dlike you to shut me down by telling
me. Laura already said in thekite recommendation, the kite recommendation to the
(37:54):
parents who listen to us. Butyou' d change it there, too.
And it' s like what yourecommend to sons, to daughters when
their parents are like that, andto be more kind to their parents What
would you say to them when youcare for young people, what do you
tell them when they tell you?And my super authoritarian dad or my mom,
(38:14):
I don' t know what yourecommend to them, how you recommend
them. Listen good is that Ithink that when there is an exercise of
violence, for example, when thereis a respect for sexual orientation in that
precisely development of and I begin toexplore and my parents know about my sexual
(38:36):
orientation and not just deny it,forbid it and violence me. I think
that the limit is fundamental and thesearch for other support benchmarks is very important.
The same thing, when there istoo much loneliness, to start looking
for support network to precisely tend tolean a bit. And there let'
s say that here' s theUniversity as part of that support network that
(39:00):
I can guide are sometimes very closealso to teachers who can be that,
approaching that guide, also to thosewho are like in the area of well
- being at the university. ButI think it is as it is part
of exercising, as Ejickino said withregard to childhood, let them exercise because
(39:27):
it is part of exercising opposition.Then I think sometimes I just look at
them and laugh at them because incases where there is no violence, it
is part of exercising or putting onand being part of exercising, as the
father of a teenager, precisely tooppose. Yeah, so, it'
s gonna happen. This stage isgoing to pass. It is not eternal
(39:52):
and at some point we will understandwhy they are not allowing me to do
everything I want to do or Ican also explain no criteria why it would
be important for me to do thisor this, to generate criteria for making
decisions. And about that, andalready listening to yourself Sara and listening to
(40:14):
the reflections that your story has generatedus, you, what do you think
of right now about the relationship youhave with your mom, with your dad,
what you think and what you could, as in conclusion, say about
these conflicts you' re living through, like what you would change the way
you oppose her, what you wouldask her to change. I don'
(40:39):
t think from the beginning, itwas very like an epiphany to me.
A little while talking to you,like realizing that, in fact, it
was not like a moment there likerandom that is happening in my life,
but suddenly, this delay in adolescencewas something very real and I had not
assimilated it. I think with myparents it' s like something constant,
(41:04):
like construction and dialogue, although Ido feel that I don' t know
if it' s something generational orlike because of the relationship I have with
them, like sometimes they' renot so willing to give up, then
you have to turn to the oppositionand sometimes that' s not so cool,
because then one is the one whogets lost when, for example,
(41:24):
in my case, I' mnot so radical, then I wouldn'
t run away from the house orsomething like that, but then whether I
object or reveal myself, then thenext permission is going to be emboldened too
and the next one is going tobe able to also then I think that
it would change a little bit,a little like my ability to oppose me,
(41:47):
without feeling that that that that itwould put me at risk as another
kind of dynamic, not only interms of permission, but as the relationship
in general with my parents, thenI' d like to be a little
more as capable of opposing me,without feeling that it puts me in some
way and with my parents, becauseI think that I would say like,
(42:07):
as in general, as if thereare a good communication with my parents,
then I' s, I's that I' s that I'
s my mom, I don's, I' s not going to
be able to be, I's, for, I don' s,
I don' s, I don' s, I don' t
feel like to be, I don' t feel like to be, for,
I don' t think that I' t think that I' t
think that I' s, I' t think that I' t think
that I' s, I's that I' s, I'
t to be, I don't to be, I don' s,
I' s, I' s, I' s that I'
s that I' s, I' t think I think I' s,
I' s, I' s, I' s, I'
s, I' s, I' s, I' s, I
' s, I' s,I' s, I' s,
I think I think I think I' s, I' s, I
think, I think I think Ithink I think I think I think I
think I think, I think Ithink I think I think I think Why
not rely a little more on thosedecisions as or those desires of those plans
that there is on one' spart a little how the conclusion is autonomy,
that is to say they are generatingautonomy and generating general autonomy, that
(42:28):
there are also very interesting disagreements tolisten to them and then nothing. I
just want to thank you. Thankyou so much Laura for joining us,
Thank you to You without inviting meand Sarah thank you so much for your
time, for your generosity and foropening up your story to us. Thank
you for the invitation. Well,remember internet users that you are listening to
us on our website or a radiocom rosary as well as on broadcast platforms,
(42:54):
where you can download all our podcastsin the same way, if you
are interacting on social networks, youfind us as a radio rosary on x
Instagram, Facebook and YouTube. Inthe Manster control Nelson Duarte accompanied us and
in the Directorate General Mario Castro spoketo them syndicate. Today you can contact
me in my mail Cindi, Point, expensive, arroba or rosary edu.
(43:15):
This was with the batteries on.We' ll wait for you in our
next podcast. If you liked learningabout your emotions, about love and other
elements of psychology applied to everyday life, don' t forget. This is
(43:37):
your space. The Rosarist Center ofEmotional Education UIR Emotion and a Rosario radio
presented the podcast saga with the batterieson, where you found keys to your
personal growth and to build a betterlife
Start a space for you where learningand reflection will allow you to get to
know yourself better and focus on personalchange. If you like to learn about
your emotions, about love and otherelements of psychology applied to everyday life.
This is your space. The RosaristCenter of Emotional Education or ERE Emotion and
(00:21):
u Rosario Radio present the podcast sagawith the stacks set where you will find
keys to your personal growth and tobuild a better life hello. We welcome
you to your program with the stacksthat are broadcast through digital waves, from
(00:44):
the institutional station of the University ofRosario a Rosario Radio, a space that
brings you reflections on various topics suchas interpersonal relations, emotional management, inclusion
and equity. This space is designedso that all people who listen to us
can have tools that allow them toconnect with themselves and with others he speaks
to them unionized. I am thecompliance officer of the protocol that prevents tending
(01:08):
gender- based violence and discrimination inthe University of Rosario, and today I
am accompanied by two very special guests. Laura Rosso, psychologist of the team
that accompanies cases of violence based onengineering and discrimination at the University. Good
for you, Laura, how areyou? Thank you very much, cindy
very well, and Sarah Farfan isalso with me. She is a seventh
(01:32):
semester student of History at the Universityof Rosario. Sara' s twenty-
one and she' s a student. One of the classes that I offer
and I invited her because she isa very busy student and I found it
very interesting to be able to sharetoday the topic that we have prepared.
Welcome back, Sara, how areyou? Good morning. Thank you very
much, well, well. Iam very happy because today I want to
(01:53):
tell all the people who are listeningto us that we have prepared an issue
that has to do with a pastthat feels very far away, but it
really was a very short time agoand it is the issue of the pandemic
and we wanted to talk to youand give you a few discussions that we
have had about how we live thepandemic differently two generations, not the young
(02:16):
people who were living the pandemic andparticularly how the young people lived that pandemic
world, bearing in mind that theywere living a very particular stage of their
lives as well. So, that' s why we brought Sara and it
' s in that world called apandemic. What happened? So, here
the conversation is mostly about our friendSara, and we have some questions for
her. And so on that wewant to start, because how you lived
(02:38):
the pandemic, how old you were, what you were doing in which course
you were, so tell us.A little good pandemic. I was seventeen
when he hit the pandemic. Iwas studying at school and how it was
calendar B for March. I wasfinishing eleven and that' s why I
graduated virtual and started college to livethat same year. Initially it was like
(03:06):
understanding a little how the school wasgoing to become something virtual, because even
the school didn' t know howto accommodate virtual classes and from one moment
to another start using as tools likeMEAD and all these things that in the
end, all they did was becomea little extraneous to that learning process.
And the grade was getting my diplomafor being my delivery, giving the grade
(03:27):
words by zoom I gave them andI dropped the Internet at that time.
Then it was my turn to getoff the computer, connect from the cell
phone, and when I got online, the rector was saying how good we
' re waiting for Sara to getback on her Internet. I don'
t know what. And that wasmy grade. And then it was like
eating sushi at home with my parentsas I got the diploma in delivery.
(03:50):
Then it was a little difficult.During those dates I learned that I had
had the opportunity to earn a scholarshipat the Universidad del Rosario and the only
requirement was to start studying that semester. Immediately following, I had some plans.
Everything was as in the unknown andin the end I decided to go
to study history, obviously virtual.My induction was terrible, because the university
(04:14):
had never done a virtual induction andthen there wasn' t like the virtual
campus tour. But the platform fellor did not have the updated information.
I just went in to study history. So we were my director and I
were like presenting the program to eachother. Then it was a little strange.
Sara tell us, a little bitabout what your social life was like
(04:36):
before the pandemic, because I havealways been a person with a very small
social group since school. I hadfew friends and always got along better with
men than with women. But whenhe gets into the pandemic, like,
if we finish classes, we stoptalking to my friends at school, so,
(04:57):
naturally, we kind of isolate eachother from everyone and sometimes like there
was the attempt to do jobs togetherand all that, but no one kind
of was very interested in maintaining thoserelationships and I wasn' t trying either.
That' s why you missed school, not for me. The school
was a very tense social space,where to constantly socialize with the people,
(05:19):
where these groups were as a filmof the popular people the gnoños, and
I was like in that half,where I was not a child, but
yes, I was very nyñña,but not so much as to be popular.
Then he was very distressing and Idon' t think I missed him
at all. And when you enteredcollege, something changed. I think that
(05:41):
space as a virtual college study didn' t feel very different than when I
was in school in a virtual way. So I just kind of didn'
t feel the need to socialize withpeople and then I said like what.
But when the teachers started to sayit' s not that it' s
about being a group job and Iwas like ok because I can meet people
(06:03):
to do the jobs. But thesepeople aren' t going to be my
friends, because it turns someone overto a friend is virtual and in the
end some people ended up getting closeto me. As we do the work
together and these zoom sessions to dojobs, they turn, we finish the
work and we stay talking in ourlives, and so they became my friends
who are still my friends, evenalready finishing, but it' s not
(06:26):
a very big group. It wasn' t just two friends I made in
virtuality who are still my friends nowsoon. This one felt comfortable with the
pandemic, that is, with thematter of being at home. Yeah,
yeah, I think I' dcome up with something like getting a little
bit out of that attention of havingto socialize every day with people that I
(06:47):
didn' t like to just haveto deal with my dad and my mom
and just be alone like not stressedout by having to look or say or
like it. And it became likea safe space to the extent that my
only problem, so to speak,was cohabitation with my parents, which was
somewhat less than all the stress generatedby the school. How interesting it was
(07:11):
when the pandemic ended and they haveto go back to college. You had
this group of friends that' sbest known in zoom. What it'
s like to live a second stageof primi for, because one thing was
that first induction and another thing wasto come and really not know how you
(07:31):
got to the university, what tolook for which after millennium, well,
it' s a bit of that. When we started the mixed classes,
my friends, the only friends Iever made, they' re foreign.
Then they were very excited about faceto face. But since it was the
third semester and I didn' tknow what I was doing with my life.
I decided to postpone a semester andI said well, I ran out
(07:57):
of friends because of course everyone wasalready in college interacting with them and I
decided to postpone the semester. Butsurprisingly, these two people were constantly asking
me how and how you did itand what you did while you weren'
t studying if they were still incontact with me, and I was saying
I don' t need any morepeople. Only with these two friends is
enough and when I resumed college thefollowing semester, I said I' m
(08:22):
fine with these two people. ButI realized that these two people already had
more friends and I was like theywere my only friends to me. So,
at first it was like good.They have other plans other friends bigger
groups, but I' m finewith that, like I don' t
need any more people. At somepoint it changed yes, as in the
(08:43):
fifth semester for some reason I startedto feel the need or the desire to
go out with people, share withfriends. I saw my friends publish stories
with their college friends, that is, school people, my own college friends.
I met people, yes, butI don' t want to make
(09:03):
friends' plans. And I wasa person who came to class, the
class was over and I was goinghome. Or I didn' t sacrifice
any moment like the urge to gohome, because the TransMilenium, because he
' s always made up some excusefor me. And a year ago I
started to feel like I wanted toshare with people with different experiences of living
with people my age. When Irealized how s uff I have no friends,
(09:26):
that is, my only friends.They are two people and these people
also have a social life and arevery friendly. And I then what I
' m going to do and Irealized that I wanted friends but I didn
' t know how to be friendsand I didn' t have friends.
How much Sara says and I realizedthat she had no friends and that there
was or didn' t know howto make friends. What happened there.
(09:46):
My hypothesis is that Sarah is lockedup with her parents, so to speak,
at a time when adolescents usually beginto discern distances, to disidentify themselves
from their primary nucleus, and toidentify with their peers in that construction of
(10:07):
identity, and that surely happens asmuch younger than what Sara describes. But
for Sara that social life was astressor. When the pandemic comes in,
she can go back to her safeplace and she doesn' t have to
deal with it. If I startwith someone who identifies who I have in
(10:31):
common, then he starts to feelsafe at home even further, because they
are in teenagers, they are inthis tension, in disidentifying themselves, but
also the need to still identify withthose who care for them, with their
primary nucleus, with their family.So they' re in this attention and
Sara solves that attention a little bitby staying. We could say in some
(10:52):
way how in the comfort of childhoodand the lap of his parents and his
mother, and when he enters collegeand he is supposed to already see he
must have developed all these skills thathave to be developed and that the young
also develop because they need it.They need to start generating, to create
(11:13):
their identity and in that to createtheir present entity, they need autonomy and
in that autonomy they begin to rebeland to generate distances. So that doesn
' t happen in Sara, whenit' s that moment because of the
pandemic, that doesn' t happen. And then when she' s nineteen
(11:33):
she sees more or less that that' s expected to flow very naturally,
because it doesn' t just happento Sara and she doesn' t just
go through the pandemic. But inthis case it' s very interesting.
I was supposed to start passing Saraso far she' s learning it?
So far you are learning this thatis learned you learn the first semesters seventeen
(11:56):
eighteen years. So I' mno longer on the road, I don
' t remember and it takes meto the route, but I already generate
the autonomy to fly how I goto the University, what is the TransMilenio.
Meet friends, because they are theones who live near my house,
with whom I walk, with whomI do the work, friends of my
friends, and then I start togenerate links with these people who have things
(12:18):
in common, that my parents nolonger have with me. And this begins
to happen to the nineteen- twenties, not the seventeen- eighteen, precisely
because the pandemic delays that process.For other young people it was different,
(12:39):
which was being very identified, beingseparated from their parents and being locked up
with them again. Then it wasa super complex suffering for other teenagers that
for Sara, instead, was amoment of comfort to get to her safe
place. And there I have aquestion for Sara, in addition to these
friends who count your ces you separatefrom your friends from school, you start
(13:03):
to meet these people by zoom.There are other significant relationships for IT during
the pandemic. Just before the pandemicbegan, I went to a café event
with my school friends and met aboy who also studied at school with me,
but he was a year older thanme and we had friends in common
(13:24):
that day birthday status. Then byeducation, I greeted him. I told
him happy birthday, have a greattime, but I didn' t talk
to him again the rest of theday until the end. He asked me
how good and you when you turnold and I casually, I' m
turning out in fifteen days, andthen he was like ah, well.
(13:48):
That was our whole conversation. Fifteendays later. I got a message from
an unknown number telling me oh happybirthday and I like who he is and
he tells me not to look atthat and I remember that we' re
in corpherias. I don' tknow what. I remembered that you were
birthday, I asked your number tothis friend in common that we have and
because he passed it to me andI know what cool I don' t
(14:11):
know and we started talking, butwe never talked about seeing each other again
was how we thought that or assumedthat naturally, that encounter in person was
going to happen. And so themonths and months went by, and that
was in October and it came inMarch and we were already talking about seeing
that they' re going to quarantineus and it was like uf that crazy.
Not who knows how long that lasts, but we never talk about seeing
(14:33):
each other. And as you couldsay, naturally, we lasted talking about
the whole pandemic, messages, calls, that sent him a picture and what
he was doing, that told himwhat he was eating, what it was
going to be today, sent himvideos. I don' t know how
to cook things as well as myday to day, locked in the house,
(14:54):
telling him about my personal life,telling him about my problems, talking
for hours and hours and hours,and when we realized, because already the
pandemic in quotation marks is over.It had already been a year and all
that time we had been talking andit was like my only company during that
time, as constant. It couldbe said that he was the person who
(15:18):
accompanied you at that time as youseparated from your school friends and as college
friends entered. But you didn't have as a group of friends,
but as a very stable person.Let' s say I think it'
s also about your personality, notlike one more person I don' t
know shy or maybe more reserved.No yes, and I think we also
connect a lot, because he isa person who listens a lot and likes
(15:43):
to listen to people and I loveto talk. Then it was like hours
and hours where I was talking andtelling him about my day and my childhood
trauma and my favorite color at agesix, and he was listening to me
and at some point I was thinkinghow he' s going to forget everything
I' m going to tell him. But also because we are scattered in
the pandemic and there is nothing elseto do. And when I realized that
(16:04):
he was genuinely listening to me andI kind of remembered everything I was saying
to him was like ufff who thisperson is, not like what' s
going to happen to this relationship andwhat happened to that relationship. When one
more year goes by, a littleover a year since we started talking,
he tells me how I think Ilike you and I and after the fact
(16:27):
it was by whatsapp and he sentme a sticker and I' m serious,
like it' s not a joke. Then he was like no,
because I' ve never felt thatway for anyone. Of course, he
had told me about the few thingshe had told me, because he almost
didn' t tell me things likeI' ve never had a girlfriend.
I' m not interested in havinggirlfriends, just my basketball friends and video
(16:51):
games. Then I told him no, I mean no. You mustn'
t be serious and he was likeno. Yeah, I think I like
you and I said, but youdidn' t like me and he was
telling me why. And me becauseI' ve been talking for a year
and it' s a year I' ve told you all my life and
you' ve told me almost nothingabout you. So you don' t
know yourself for a year talking toyou yes literal was like I don'
(17:15):
t know you, I don't know anything about you, like something
I say I knew things about him, but not enough to say uf I
also like you. And because hewas as well, I' m going
to do my part and he startedto work out, as he' s
also a very shy person. Thenit took him a lot to tell me
things, but again by message,by call for I don' t know
(17:37):
what it was like to look ator I did this I ate the other
thing I like. I like thishere and when the pandemic began to relax
at the end of the two thousandand twenty, then we started to get
out. Then go out, eat, go out to I don' t
know what, go out, toa park meet my family, because,
by chance my parents arrived while wewere there for lunch or whatever and after
(17:59):
six months, since I had declaredmyself. I told him like, okay,
I think I like you already youearned it, yeah, like now
I know you enough. We've lived together long enough then, so
let' s be boyfriends. Ifind it very interesting, because, well,
first of all, even though younarrate that you are a shy person
and because apparently he also got together, they did not come together in their
(18:22):
shyness, but also they came togethera very strange context, because we were
in pandemic. No, and Ihave, like, several questions there.
I don' t know what timehe thinks, and it' s about
how human nature implied us continuing toapproach someone, yes, even shy or
not, and that even though thepandemic was there, we approached by Whatsapp,
by calls not like we needed tokeep a link. And here'
(18:45):
s interesting because Sarah kept a bondwith someone she was meeting so far,
still having her parents next door.But, because she was also a young
woman who could not, then,just have that bond of humanity only with
her parents. I mean, itwas like it was important to get someone
and he got it, yeah,just like he was thinking exactly the same
thing and it was that in theend, that need to identify with a
couple was very important and I imagineeverything she shared with him. I would
(19:11):
even dare to think and you willcorrect me to Sara who shared with him
sometimes more than I felt like sharingwith her parents who were on foot.
Yeah, totally my mom was askingme to spend a lot of time on
the computer and not with them andwe were in the same house. And
it was like, but it's just that he' s more amusing
(19:33):
than living with my parents. Thennotice that you do give that ID and
that ID, but with only oneperson. Yeah, this having to socialize
and that getting friends. There wasno need, no need, and they
made it easier for each other.Okay. And how easy it was for
him to be friends. He livedsomething like what you lived UFFF. I
(19:56):
think it' s a very difficultquestion, because he manages to make friends,
but because in college he was alreadypresent. When the pandemic came in,
then he had already had the opportunityto meet people from a job or
induction, but he already had thisnetwork that he manages to maintain during the
(20:18):
pandemic and that does not change eventoday, as these friends with whom he
began the University stay during the pandemicand remain friends now of the University.
Then I think it was a differentexercise. I don' t know how
he made friends in person because bythat time we didn' t talk and
(20:41):
we haven' t talked about it, but it did make it much easier
for us to sit next to eachother, do a job together and then
the atmosphere as if we were readyto go out of class and go and
lie down to the grass, becausethere are green areas in the national one
and then let' s eat empanadasand talk about our life, while we
wait for the next class. Butlook, even though he made friends before
(21:03):
the pandemic, in the pandemic helived with you, let' s say,
he lived with you virtually, thatis, they used to talk together,
because you talked to him a lot, you sent him a lot of
things, that is, you werevery important to him in the pandemic when
they forged his friendship. Not thatyou were his reference. Yeah, yeah,
obviously, and because he was listeningto you, I mean, in
(21:26):
the end he wasn' t listeningto anyone else. He was listening to
you They become one like each other' s net. Yeah, and even
though you' ve lived that inthat world that was the pandemic, when
you come back, then you toldus that here at the university you already
got some friends. But then yousaid too, because I feel very lonely.
How can I make more friends andthen how was that awakening you me?
(21:48):
Yes, I already have a couple, yes, I have two friends,
but I think it' s insufficient. First you wake up and I
want more friends. And then,well, and how I do them.
What happened there. I think listeningto her identifies me a lot. This
is kind of going to slow downthe process of adolescence a little, because
(22:10):
when I realize that I don't know how to make friends, and
it' s a conversation I havewith my friends like that it' s
hard for shy people to make friends, because we don' t know how
to do it. I turn tothese two friends and tell them how I
want to do things and how theyare so outgoing, then sometimes I am
with them and you start then Iam with them and look I present Sara
(22:33):
and Fulanito and I don' tknow what, but of course, they
meet me. And now it's entirely up to me that this person
that I liked like to forge abond of friendship with this person and that
' s where I start taking actionsas a risk to myself, as in
the midst of my shyness. Andthen greet the person when I meet her
in the hallway or ask her aboutsomething like very unnecessary in order to start
(22:59):
something, but it' s somethingthat costs me a lot, because then
I have to start sacrificing getting tocollege, finishing class and leaving because I
suddenly talk twenty thirty more minutes.So, that involves going spiky in the
TransMilenio in order to meet people andhave plans to share with these people.
And he starts doing a lot ofthings unconsciously or maybe consciously, so he
(23:25):
can connect with more people my age. And that' s from the way
I' m introduced and I'm trying to maintain those relationships that interest
me. As she begins to dothis for your family, Sara, who
was very used and very comfortable,having an age at which others go out
and ask for many permits in thehouse, well resenting that you did not
(23:47):
share as much as they wanted.How you start doing this for your family
when you start wanting out right now, having plans. It' s being
late, because with what we weretalking about, I think that my personality,
a little strategic, started by tellingmy mom not how I met this
(24:07):
person and I liked her then,so that when I was going to ask
for permission, my mom wouldn't tell me and who this person is
and why she came out of nowhere. But even if I tried all these
things, there' s a timewhen I start partying, I start to
release the card at age 20 andmy mom starts again. Besides, it
(24:29):
' s either time or time.I mean this moment, I have a
three- year relationship where in thosethree years I' ve been out many
times with my boyfriend' s familyand my mom constantly tells me again then
it' s not just asking permissionto go out with my boyfriend' s
family, but with my new friends. And it' s a pain.
I' d say like sometimes formy mom. Not today I' m
(24:52):
going out with Sotanito, but tomorrowI' m going out with Fulanito.
But the other week I' malso going to meet with x person to
do a job. No, becausethen, of course, the university also
begins to create those spaces where wemeet to do a job and also,
we stay socializing later. And it' s my mom all my life,
(25:14):
if a person like pulls and loosens, pulls, loosens, but at some
point she started to feel a littleabandoned by me and told me how.
But you' re spending more timewith your boyfriend' s family than you
are with me, and what aboutour family plans? So, of course,
my mom and dad and me,but since my sister isn' t
like she left the house ten yearsago. Then my mom starts to realize
(25:37):
that her company is going to bemy dad and no more the three of
us. I imagine that was verydifficult for your mom, because it was
a little bit that you' realready big, I mean, I'
m already giving the cell to 20, which I find very interesting. She
' s asking for permission and shedoesn' t have any more tools to
say no, because you' realready older, that is, you already
(25:57):
take bus hello, you already haveyour schedule. No, I mean,
it was really hard for her.That created conflicts between you. That'
s how they worked it I thinkso. To this day it still happens
that sometimes I say if I ama good daughter, because they don'
t give me more permission, thatis, I don' t have so
(26:18):
many problems, or I don't cause problems because they don' t
give me more permission. Sometimes Idon' t understand that kind of dynamics
and if it generates a little tension, because then I came to the house
the day I was thinking of goingout, but they didn' t give
me permission. Then my mom tellsme to wash the slab, do this,
do the other thing. And ofcourse, I start bumping into my
mom and I eat my rebellious moment, it' s like ah but why
(26:40):
or then I don' t knowwhat when I know that soon the best
solution is to take her through thegood news to get another permission later.
But still, that doesn' tmake it like it' s less weary
and difficult for my mom and me. How is this for your other friends
you see that there are people whogo through similar things. There are differences
(27:03):
between men and women in this matterof having more permits to be able to
distance themselves a little more fully.In fact, with my girlfriend, at
some point we had the arguments thathe spent a lot of time in my
house and I almost never went tohis, because once my dad told me
that a girl doesn' t spendthat much time outside the house and less
(27:23):
at the groom' s house.It' s just that a girl doesn
' t do that. So,of course, he was telling me I
' m gonna make a warning thatI' m gonna go out and make
plans, but it' s upto you to ask permission and sometimes that
slows us down like the things wewant to do. So he' s
been in conflict with my boyfriend andmy friends. Sometimes it' s like
(27:44):
a sudden plan came out and Iwait it' s that I have to
call for permission or I have tocall and they' re like. But
why if we' re just gonnastay for a while, if it'
s just like saying you' reokay and it' s like no.
That' s not how it worksand sometimes they make me feel like my
mom' s the bad guy andI say it' s gonna be I
(28:06):
don' t know how I feelbad daughter, thinking that my mom'
s doing things wrong, but sometimesI say but it' s what I
want and my mom doesn' tgive it to me. And it'
s like other women are like whathappens to you. If I think there
is also another variable, and itis if they live alone or if they
are from Bogotá, because my foreignfriends normally, because they live alone,
(28:27):
then they don' t have toask permission, but only report as I
am well, but my friends wholive here in Bogotá and who are from
Bogotá, if they have to askpermission and it' s like this thing
from up to them they pick usup or we go out to party and
pick you up at one because it' s not too late or you don
(28:48):
' t have to go back orif then, I think if it implies
that we are women, that wehave our families here in Bogotá, the
fact of how these dynamics, ofpermission and warning and all that I listen
to Sara, because I have manyquestions. But, then, you laura,
what do you think of this,what do you think of that attention
between wanting to separate, as isthe place where you are, Sara,
(29:10):
from wanting to separate from your parents, because to have your own social life,
etcetera, etcetera, but also thatattention of Sara' s dad and
mom, from wanting to have itand keep it. But besides that she
is a daughter, not that sheis a daughter how you see this,
and also your experience as a psychologist, as you have seen in other spaces,
I was thinking precisely how our lifeexperience is traversed by the moment of
(29:34):
life in which we are, bywhat is happening around us and definitely,
because by gender, surely we candeepen and people who could not go out
to the University have another experience oflife and it was up to them to
live different things. But in thecase of Sara, I am very struck,
precisely as in consultations or when youtalk to young people, these are
(29:59):
precisely what they report many times,not while women have an idea, there
is a need for care, ofan idea that there is a greater risk,
even though statistics tell us that menhave more risky behaviors and that they
die many times more than they areexposed to quarrels. But we still believe
that women are the ones to becared for. And when, well,
(30:22):
in workshops and in different spaces,men often recent just that loneliness and that
difficulty and that not being warned,not having been guided, while women resent,
not all, surely, but recenton the contrary, and there is
no freedom. Well and what itis about when we' re going to
(30:42):
see the statistics of accidentality, ofthe robbery of quarrels, of course also
of sexual violence. What is beingtaken care of by women and why is
men not being cared for? Itis a reflection that I think is important
for us to make. And thenthat' s just going through the genre.
(31:03):
Gender is going through how we aresocialized, how we are cared for
or not cared for, of course. And besides, in fact, now
that I hear you, I alsothink about the care that you can resent
no, and I think that whenI don' t feel careful and think
about the kids, I don't feel careful, because I can get
(31:26):
out and apparently that freedom can beseen as something positive, but in the
long run it can also hurt me. As Sara used to say that pull
and loosen that means like those momsand dads that they' d have to
do with those young people who areasking to get out of the house egg.
No, what you should definitely dowith young people is like a kite.
What I always say when I havethe chance to talk to parents,
(31:48):
and is that if you loose toomuch the kite thread, the comet will
fall And if you pay too muchattention, the thread will break and the
comet will also be lost. Thenthere' s no. I mean,
if I have too much I won' t allow at that moment. The
young person needs to disidentify because heneeds to generate autonomy, he needs to
(32:15):
create his different identity. So,when I don' t allow that,
because I' m not allowing anythingelse and nothing less to grow when we
think of too authoritarian parents. Butwhen the opposite happens and then it doesn
' t matter. I have noidea where he is or what he'
s doing. Precisely at this stageof life, the frontal lobe has not
(32:39):
yet been completed. So sometimes thereis no awareness about the danger of planning
like those things that give us preciselyhow to generate criteria. The approach has
not yet been finalized. I don' t make the smartest decisions at that
(33:00):
time in life, I' malso easily influenced. I need the guide
many times. Then there you getvery easy into risky behaviors and many young
people who then have trouble consuming situationsreport having been very alone during adolescence and
(33:22):
many young people, by the waythe male, yes, I have also
heard it in women, which isstrange because they are usually more careful,
precisely because of what we talked aboutearlier. But yes, many, many
young, male, but I havealso listened to women. I think part
(33:43):
of what' s happening to meright now, I grew up very alone.
Nobody cared. Then I think thatthere both authoritarianism and negligence, we
could say, generate violent sob.Listening to Laura, you, what Sara
thinks about your mom' s attitudein terms of good negligence, not authoritarianism,
(34:08):
maybe not like you see it,I think it was my mom.
She has done her job well withwhat she has had and but it seems
to me also important to recognize thatlet' s say the upbringing she gave
to my sister may have been differentbecause of what my sister takes me fourteen
years, it was another time toother situations and also, my personality is
(34:32):
very different from that of my sister. So I think that' s why,
like the fact that there are thingsI' m not interested in,
that several parents might find problematic,it' s a problem that my mom
' s not going to have,because I' m genuinely not interested in
doing that kind of thing, likedrug use, marijuana. Of all that,
then let' s say it's been like a lucky thing,
(34:52):
maybe like where my mom' sdone things right, with what she'
s been able to do and withwhat she' s got. But it
also coincides with what she considers tobe very problematic. It doesn' t
catch my eye. So, anyway, I love my parents a lot,
both of them, and I thinkthey do what they can and many parents
try it that way, and itdoesn' t mean that when there are
(35:14):
upsets and that they are bad parentsand where that will come from that doesn
' t catch your attention, becauseyou think that there are people who attract
attention or another not in your case. Well, we can' t talk
for the ones that catch their attention, but in your case, because that
kind of thing doesn' t catchyour attention. UFFF. I don'
t know, I' ve neverbeen asked, and I think it goes
(35:36):
hand in hand with the fact thatI have colleagues and acquaintances who have had
negative experiences with drug use. Orthat, because I say neither that I
try or that I become curious,because I have to listen to the experiences
of others. I can' ttell you exactly It' s just something
that doesn' t catch my eyeOther things, she' s been talking
(35:59):
a lot here. I want to. I' d like to start by
closing I am, because there aresome conclusions and one is that the pandemic
definitely changed the way we related,but it didn' t change that we
didn' t relate. I mean, obviously the relationship was maintained, the
human contact, but mutated, mutatedto call das, mutated to write to
us. And interesting because particularly thecase of Sarah tells us that she met
(36:22):
people in the pandemic, where sheapproached them by these new means and that
she kept what should usually be maintainedin terms of adolescence, which is to
get a little away from parents.But in the same place, then,
of course, that distance was notradical, but was much more controlled than
in a place where there was nopandemic. And here, then, it
(36:45):
seems to me that another conclusion isalso that this non- radical departure made
that perhaps the place of the lifeof adolescence, as that way of separating,
will also die, not to say, a little adolescence where Sarah was
not sixteen, seventeen, but ratherright now you see twenty- one and
at this moment you are living itin terms of getting away and so on.
And that implied a movement too,a movement I don' t know
(37:07):
if there one could say yes,there is a change in terms of what
the pandemic meant for these situations.What do you think Laura, yes,
of course she had to live thosemoments, that cycle and such in the
pandemic. It definitely had to havebeen. Or it is decisive for the
(37:30):
development of life some, because thathad to be postponed, that being able
to live certain things, had tobe postponed and is being lived in another
moment that, moreover, already hasother freedoms and that, then, also
implies other difficulties. I' dlike you to shut me down by telling
me. Laura already said in thekite recommendation, the kite recommendation to the
(37:54):
parents who listen to us. Butyou' d change it there, too.
And it' s like what yourecommend to sons, to daughters when
their parents are like that, andto be more kind to their parents What
would you say to them when youcare for young people, what do you
tell them when they tell you?And my super authoritarian dad or my mom,
(38:14):
I don' t know what yourecommend to them, how you recommend
them. Listen good is that Ithink that when there is an exercise of
violence, for example, when thereis a respect for sexual orientation in that
precisely development of and I begin toexplore and my parents know about my sexual
(38:36):
orientation and not just deny it,forbid it and violence me. I think
that the limit is fundamental and thesearch for other support benchmarks is very important.
The same thing, when there istoo much loneliness, to start looking
for support network to precisely tend tolean a bit. And there let'
s say that here' s theUniversity as part of that support network that
(39:00):
I can guide are sometimes very closealso to teachers who can be that,
approaching that guide, also to thosewho are like in the area of well
- being at the university. ButI think it is as it is part
of exercising, as Ejickino said withregard to childhood, let them exercise because
(39:27):
it is part of exercising opposition.Then I think sometimes I just look at
them and laugh at them because incases where there is no violence, it
is part of exercising or putting onand being part of exercising, as the
father of a teenager, precisely tooppose. Yeah, so, it'
s gonna happen. This stage isgoing to pass. It is not eternal
(39:52):
and at some point we will understandwhy they are not allowing me to do
everything I want to do or Ican also explain no criteria why it would
be important for me to do thisor this, to generate criteria for making
decisions. And about that, andalready listening to yourself Sara and listening to
(40:14):
the reflections that your story has generatedus, you, what do you think
of right now about the relationship youhave with your mom, with your dad,
what you think and what you could, as in conclusion, say about
these conflicts you' re living through, like what you would change the way
you oppose her, what you wouldask her to change. I don'
(40:39):
t think from the beginning, itwas very like an epiphany to me.
A little while talking to you,like realizing that, in fact, it
was not like a moment there likerandom that is happening in my life,
but suddenly, this delay in adolescencewas something very real and I had not
assimilated it. I think with myparents it' s like something constant,
(41:04):
like construction and dialogue, although Ido feel that I don' t know
if it' s something generational orlike because of the relationship I have with
them, like sometimes they' renot so willing to give up, then
you have to turn to the oppositionand sometimes that' s not so cool,
because then one is the one whogets lost when, for example,
(41:24):
in my case, I' mnot so radical, then I wouldn'
t run away from the house orsomething like that, but then whether I
object or reveal myself, then thenext permission is going to be emboldened too
and the next one is going tobe able to also then I think that
it would change a little bit,a little like my ability to oppose me,
(41:47):
without feeling that that that that itwould put me at risk as another
kind of dynamic, not only interms of permission, but as the relationship
in general with my parents, thenI' d like to be a little
more as capable of opposing me,without feeling that it puts me in some
way and with my parents, becauseI think that I would say like,
(42:07):
as in general, as if thereare a good communication with my parents,
then I' s, I's that I' s that I'
s my mom, I don's, I' s not going to
be able to be, I's, for, I don' s,
I don' s, I don' s, I don' t
feel like to be, I don' t feel like to be, for,
I don' t think that I' t think that I' t
think that I' s, I' t think that I' t think
that I' s, I's that I' s, I'
t to be, I don't to be, I don' s,
I' s, I' s, I' s that I'
s that I' s, I' t think I think I' s,
I' s, I' s, I' s, I'
s, I' s, I' s, I' s, I
' s, I' s,I' s, I' s,
I think I think I think I' s, I' s, I
think, I think I think Ithink I think I think I think I
think I think, I think Ithink I think I think I think Why
not rely a little more on thosedecisions as or those desires of those plans
that there is on one' spart a little how the conclusion is autonomy,
that is to say they are generatingautonomy and generating general autonomy, that
(42:28):
there are also very interesting disagreements tolisten to them and then nothing. I
just want to thank you. Thankyou so much Laura for joining us,
Thank you to You without inviting meand Sarah thank you so much for your
time, for your generosity and foropening up your story to us. Thank
you for the invitation. Well,remember internet users that you are listening to
us on our website or a radiocom rosary as well as on broadcast platforms,
(42:54):
where you can download all our podcastsin the same way, if you
are interacting on social networks, youfind us as a radio rosary on x
Instagram, Facebook and YouTube. Inthe Manster control Nelson Duarte accompanied us and
in the Directorate General Mario Castro spoketo them syndicate. Today you can contact
me in my mail Cindi, Point, expensive, arroba or rosary edu.
(43:15):
This was with the batteries on.We' ll wait for you in our
next podcast. If you liked learningabout your emotions, about love and other
elements of psychology applied to everyday life, don' t forget. This is
(43:37):
your space. The Rosarist Center ofEmotional Education UIR Emotion and a Rosario radio
presented the podcast saga with the batterieson, where you found keys to your
personal growth and to build a betterlife
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