October 9, 2025 • 25 mins
This episode features Jenn Stowe, the accomplished Executive Director of the National Domestic Workers Alliance (NDWA), the leading national voice for dignity and fairness for domestic workers across the United States. As a seasoned progressive operative and strategic thinker, Jenn leads the charge to fix one of America's most enduring labor injustices.
Jenn makes a powerful case for why domestic workers—a workforce primarily composed of women of color and immigrants—must have the same fundamental rights and benefits as all other workers. She reveals the racist economic policy at the heart of the issue: the intentional exclusion of domestic workers from the 1935 New Deal legislation, which was done because the workforce was predominantly Black.
This historical omission has perpetuated a system of low wages and exploitation. Jenn outlines the NDWA's critical campaign to pass comprehensive state and federal legislation, such as the Domestic Workers Bill of Rights, to ensure equal pay, paid time off, and the dignity that millions of essential workers deserve.
Join us for a crucial conversation about dismantling systemic racism in labor law and fighting for true economic justice and equal pay.
To learn more about the NDWA visit www.domesticworkers.org.
Jenn makes a powerful case for why domestic workers—a workforce primarily composed of women of color and immigrants—must have the same fundamental rights and benefits as all other workers. She reveals the racist economic policy at the heart of the issue: the intentional exclusion of domestic workers from the 1935 New Deal legislation, which was done because the workforce was predominantly Black.
This historical omission has perpetuated a system of low wages and exploitation. Jenn outlines the NDWA's critical campaign to pass comprehensive state and federal legislation, such as the Domestic Workers Bill of Rights, to ensure equal pay, paid time off, and the dignity that millions of essential workers deserve.
Join us for a crucial conversation about dismantling systemic racism in labor law and fighting for true economic justice and equal pay.
To learn more about the NDWA visit www.domesticworkers.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Across the board, women continue to earn less than men.
White women make about eighty cents to a man's dollar,
Black women earned sixty six cents, Native women and latinas
just fifty eight cents, and Asian American women, though often
(00:24):
reported higher earnings, still face wide pay gaps depending on
ethnicity and industry. The numbers tell a story about the
urging need for change. I'm Juline Allen, and this is
Conversations or Equal Pay, where we talk with leaders, innovators,
(00:51):
and change makers about closing the gap and uplifting women
of color in the workplace. Conversations for equal Care. So
we're talking to Jen Spoke today, the executive director of
(01:11):
the National Domestic Workers Alliance. As a tireless advocate and leader,
she is at the forefront of the movement to uplift
domestic workers and ensure they have the respect, rights and
protections they deserve. Jen, the National Domestic Workers Alliance has
(01:33):
been at the forefront of securing protections for millions of workers.
From your perspective, what are the most significant legislative or
policy barriers that still exists for domestic workers to achieve
fair and equal pay?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, Juline I'm so happy to be with you. And
just to give a little more context to who domestic
workers are. These are the women who are the nannies, housecleaners,
and the care workers who are in our lives, taking
care of our homes and our loved ones, often in
private homes. And these women are largely women of color,
(02:17):
lots of immigrant women who are domestic workers. And so
what we see as a real barrier are domestic workers
as a sector of workers being excluded from labor protections
that a lot of workers benefit from in this country.
And that exclusion has been in existence since the New Deal,
since the nineteen thirties, when other workers got protections such
(02:40):
as overtime pay, sick leave, freedom from harassment, domestic workers
were not granted that protection and so we've been really
fighting naturally to ensure that they can get the protections
that they deserve.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. You've
made it clear how well, basically it's eye opening to
hear about these gaps that it still exists today.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, we know that they exist, you know for a reason.
The way that care work is viewed, the way that
the women are viewed who do this work is very
racialized engendered. Back in the nineteen thirties, when other workers
were granted those critical protections, we know that the majority
(03:35):
of folks who did care work and work in the
home they were black women, and so they were purposely
excluded from those protections. So those exclusions still exist today,
like I said, and a lot of it is because
of racism. So so much of the work that we
do really has a racial justice and gender justice lens
(03:55):
as well as labor justice.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah. Could you share a story about a specific campaign
or victory that the and DWA has had that directly
resulted in better pay and working conditions for a group
of workers.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, of course. So we are advocating every day to
pass what we call the Bill of Rights on the
national level. This is a bill that would ensure the
domestic workers are really included in other benefits that workers have.
But while we're advocating at the national level, we've been
(04:36):
able to pass bills across over a dozen cities and
states to ensure that domestic workers in places like New York,
the state of California, in places like the city of Philly,
places where you have a real density of domestic workers,
where they can have those rights. So I think look
at that as such a big win and wins that
(04:59):
will continue to keep the drum beat on, you know,
in subsequent years, making sure that we can get as
many domestic workers covered as we can.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, And when I think about other places, I think
about my own city, Chicago. Yes, be has a high
immigrant population and I'm sure has a demographic of domestic workers.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
It does, Julian, And you should know also that we
are the Alliance is an organization of affiliates and chapters,
so we do work across the US to advocate for
the rights, dignity and respective domestic workers. And we have
a big president presidence in Chicago. So we do a
lot of organizing with domestic workers in Chicago and have
(05:49):
been able to pass legislation and do a lot of
good work there.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah. So how is the work you do with domestic
workers tied to the broader fight for racial and gender justice.
You kind of touched on that a little bit already.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Mm hmmm. I said that the majority of domestic workers
are women over ninety percent, so many women of color,
largely immigrant women. And I think that raising standards for
domestic workers really speaks to pay equity and pay gaps
in a different way. A lot of times when people
(06:26):
think about pay equity, in my experience, they'll they'll talk about,
you know, more like white collar jobs or sectors that
are really geared towards folks who are higher earners. And
you know, when we think about women of color being
in low wage jobs and we think about working families,
(06:48):
you know, we think about pay equity in a different lens.
It's really about just advancing economic justice. It's about the
advancement of like reproductive freedom and autonomy. It's about really
investing in care broadly being the investment in racial and
(07:09):
gender equity, just because of what we know about the
history of the workforce and the sector, and that so
many exclusions and ideals about the work were really built
upon like racist like Jim Crow laws and sentiments. So
dismantling that is about like dismantling racism as well, and
(07:34):
it is about ensuring that people can take care of
other families while not sacrificing that care for their family too.
A lot of members will often tell me, like, you know,
how they love doing their jobs. You know, it's that
they want to be paid a fair wage and they
want to be able to take care of their family
as well.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah, you highlighted how these issues are not separate, there
so intertwined, and really the lack of legislation or protection
for domestic workers really stem from African Americans being the
(08:14):
ones that were doing this work on and so they
were not protected because of you know, racism. But yes,
these issues are intertwined.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, we know that black women who were enslaved did
this work. You know, like when we think about chattel
slavery in the US, we know that that black women
and black people were the folks who were caring for
folks and doing it for free, and so that has
kind of dictated the how the work has been like
(08:53):
historically valued, and so much of our work is about
changing that perception.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, so what drew you to this work and what
does it feel like to lead an organization that is
so deeply connected to the lives of so many.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think, like a lot of folks, I came into
this work and really came into the realization of my
own care story and how the you know, every step
in my life has been dictated by who I've cared
for or who I've had the privilege of uh being
(09:30):
taking care of by And so I was a younger mother.
I had my daughter when I was in college, and
I know firsthand how difficult it was to find affordable childcare,
for example. So I had a deep understanding as I
came up into my understanding of like systems, that it
(09:54):
wasn't just a personal problem, you know, that it was systemic,
and that there's so many people people in this country
that are doing you know, what is perceived to be
everything right, you know, and they still have issues finding
you know, childcare, making sure that their loved ones can
get taken care of. So realizing that and like having
(10:17):
such rich experiences with folks who were caretaking really gave
me a good understanding of the women who do this work. Also,
just speaking about folks who took care of me, my
grandmother was one of the folks who took care of me.
She was a house cleaner for most of her life
(10:38):
in Charlotte, North Carolina. She had such a respect for
her work, and so that is always kind of gave
me a good understanding of how I was to think
about her work too. She did it in such a
dignified way. It was such decent work to her, and
so that has always been my understanding of it, and
(10:59):
coming into to be able to have the privilege to
lead this organization has given me a newfound appreciation for
being able to organize alongside care workers. I also think that,
you know, the organizing that we do is so special,
you know, just because of the demographics of the women
that we serve. We know that they are coming to
(11:22):
us and we're their home because they're domestic workers, but
their mothers, sisters, nieces, their grandmothers, a lot of them
are paid to do care work and their family caregivers.
So just really appreciate, like organize alongside them and having
such appreciation for their whole selves. That has been one
(11:43):
of the just amazing benefits about being able to do
this work, traveling across the country and meeting so many
like amazing women.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, your story is certainly inspiring and it's good to
hear about your conviction to do this work. I was
telling Christina earlier that a couple of family members take
care of my grandmother, and really that we are somehow
(12:14):
connected to this, or we're related to this in some way,
and many of us, probably at some point or another,
had to find a caretaker for our children or a
caretaker for an elderly or disabled person in our lives.
(12:36):
So we're intertwined and interconnected with.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
This absolutely as black women too. I feel like Juline
is quite cultural, you know, like the collectivity of just
like black black people and black women and like matriarchal families.
I think just gives us such a different perspective on
the work. And I would say, I'm thirty nine years old,
(13:01):
and something that I reflect on is the fact that
women who are my age and older there's most likely
a connection to care work or care workers in some way,
whether we're descendants of care workers, we come from a
lineage of people who are domestic workers, and we're kind
of coming into an understanding about that, or we're like
(13:24):
caretaking ourselves. Sometimes we don't have the words to say,
like I'm like taking care of my grandmother or my aunt,
you know, but a lot of what we do is
care is caretaking, and we're doing care work, you know.
It's it's unpaid care work, but it's care work. So
I think just the awareness of the cultural aspects is
(13:44):
just given a different layer in doing this work, you know.
And we are a multi lingual, multi ethnic, multi racial movement,
and so I see the threads of that work and
the collectivity, really see it across the way that we
do the work, the way we're community with each other
and we're always singing and dancing, like it shows up
(14:07):
in so many different ways. So it's a real privilege.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
So what is the one thing you wish more people
understood about domestic worker industry?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I spoke a little bit about how you know, there's
there's paid work and as an industry, and then there
is unpaid work. And I wish people knew that that
industry care work period. If looked at you know, all together,
it's huge. It's like a one trillion dollar industry, you know,
(14:42):
such a large piece of the economy, and women are
so central, you know, women are doing that work and
propping up, you know, so much in this economy. So
that I wish people I wish people really knew that
and understood it. I think oftentimes women do this work
as a calling, they do it as an expectation, they
(15:06):
do it because they want to do it, they're expected
to do it, and I think sometimes it has the
ability to not give us the fullest picture about how
many people are impacted, or the exact dollar amount you
know that this industry is worth when you zoom out,
So it's a lot of money, you know, in our economy.
(15:27):
And that's what I wish people understood.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
It is an important reminder for many of people who
might take this for granted, that care workers, domestic workers
bring in tremendous value to our economy and it and
to our worlds. They are people that are at the
(15:52):
center of things. During COVID, they were they still had
to work, they didn't have the luxury of staying at home,
and we're in the reliant on domestic workers.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, and we find, Julie that like often in crisis,
you know, domestic workers and care workers are on the
front line. We found that out during COVID, you know,
with the lack of ppe and other protections. And we
find that in you know, the environmental crises that we're
seeing as well, whether it's the fires in California or
(16:31):
some of the hurricanes. We know that like often times,
domestic workers are taking care of people in their homes
and they are you know, considered essential. They're being asked
to do really difficult things and often are on the
front lines. And so they really deserve extra protections, you know,
(16:51):
due to that.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, So have you ever had to fight for fair
pain or reconie in your all career and if so,
how has that experience shaped your leadership.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
It's a great question. I've been really lucky to work
alongside a lot of strong women. I was working in
reproductive rights early in my career, and I transitioned into
working in electoral politics, and I remember getting a new
job and I was up for a promotion, but I
(17:32):
had no real understanding of the amount of money that
I should be asking for. So I'll never forget that.
I had a conversation with my coworker who still remains
my friend to this day. Her name is Danielle, and
she just just told me, you know, this is what
I'm making, this is what this person is making, and
(17:52):
this is what this person is making. She really laid
it out and was very clear, like she like told me,
you know, this is what I'm making. You should ask
for at least this, this is what your peers are making.
So that just was so like clarifying for me. I
read an interview about the View where Sherri Shephard actually
said that like Rosie o'donald did that for her. She
(18:15):
was like trying to advocate for her pay and she
was like, Rosie o'donnald was like, look, I make two
million dollars, you know dollars, here's what this person makes
in this person. So I think that has the ability
to unlock, you know something, And I'm very thankful that
Danielle did that for me. And so yeah, I think
that it's oftentimes, like you know, women like supporting each
(18:38):
other and being very like transparent, I think is what
I have definitely been a beneficiary of and very aware
of the ability to carry that forward too in the
way that I navigate.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
And K brings up another conversation about that there should
be more trans parency around how much we're getting paid,
and fellow employees should be able to tell each other
how much they're paid, and it's still this level of
secrecy and surrounding how much we get paid, and companies
(19:18):
tend to not like that very much. But I'm sure
you're thankful that you had a friend that opened up
to you about how much they were getting paid and
how much your colleagues were getting paid. That look, that
is a.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
A valuable thing to have it really is, And Danielle
is a white woman. I want to know as well.
And I think that I don't know if you've experienced this, Julane,
but like I had to unlearn a lot of like
you know, shame, you know that I had around money,
just like my thoughts about money, how I valued it,
(19:57):
how I talked about it, you know how what really
relationship I had with it. I really had to like
grapple with that and realize that some of the conversations
that I, you know, didn't want to have were really
about like not knowing how to navigate and not growing
up in a household where that was like okay to do,
(20:17):
and also like being like it's a lot wrapped up
in there being Southern, you know, being being polite, you know,
taught to not be assertive in this way.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
So yes, it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Comes up, and you know, I will say, like it
comes up across our membership too. I love, you know,
sitting in and hearing some of our members just talk
about negotiations, give each other wise counsel on how they
negotiate their own pay, different tactics that they use, you know,
how to know when you're you should ask for a
(20:49):
race so it's really illuminating and it gives me a
good understanding of how they navigate their roles because you're
you're in a private home and there are so many
like power dynamics and on display. But let me tell
you something, they have no problem being like, oh, you're
being asked to walk the dog, wash the dishes, and
(21:11):
wash the baby's clothes. Okay, that's like separate jobs. You
need to renegotiate. So they've like taught me a lot
too about like being very clear, you know, and negotiating
and like understanding like you're worth you know. So I
love like sitting in on their conversations as well.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
And that's the power of being a part of an organization.
If you if you don't have the pure support within
your workplace, but being a part of an external organization
there is power. And being a part of something like
that where you're able to have pure support and people
(21:51):
that will cheer you on along the way.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, it's about having that community, you know, and people
that you can turn to so important. Whether it's a
Danielle at your job who you can just get on
the zoom and say, girl, what's going on with these salaries?
Or it's with other people who work in the same
sector as you, or a part of an organization and
a member of an organization that you can really be
(22:15):
honest with and talk to.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
So, for our listeners who want to be allies, what's
the most effective way for them to support the NDWA
and help advance your mission.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
You know, we are the organization that fights for and
represents the two point two million domestic workers in this country,
but we are building a powerful movement of people who
really understand care and understand the struggle and the difficulty
around like taking care of our loved ones. So I
(22:52):
would say that one thing that I would implore folks
to do is to go to our website and it's
Domestic Workers dot org and really sign up to be
on our list, can stay on our email list, get
more information whether we're fighting for bills at the national level,
whether we're asking you to call your elected official. Will
(23:15):
always really like give you things to do if you're
politically minded, like we have a sister organization called Care
and Action, So really tap into our movement is what
I would.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Encourage folks to do.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Go on our website and learn about everything that we do,
and sign up so that you can learn more and
stay connected with us.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Thank you for sharing that, and it's definitely encouraging that
there are some concrete steps that we can take.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yes, the other the last thing I would say is
telling your story oftentimes, like if you say, you know,
can you talk about you know a time where you've
cared for somebody or they cared for you, and can
you tell us about your care story, people will just
have such rich stories and experiences and it can unlock
(24:07):
so much for other folks. So I think storytelling is
how we connect with each other and have a good
understanding of the things that tie us together. So go
to Domestic workers dot org. But also tell the story about,
you know, how someone took care of you and really
transform things for you, or tell stories about how you
(24:30):
take care of other folks. I think it's really important.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
It is it is really critical work and definitely it
is definitely needed, and I hope that domestic workers get
the rights and privileges that they deserve. Thank you, Julie.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
We're fighting for it every single day.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Well, Jan that's all the questions I have for today.
Thank you for joining me. It's been an honor. Thank
you that's it for this episode of Conversations for Equal Pay.
To tune into more episodes, lock onto our website at
Conversations forequalpay dot org. You're listening to Conversations for Equal
(25:18):
Pay
Across the board, women continue to earn less than men.
White women make about eighty cents to a man's dollar,
Black women earned sixty six cents, Native women and latinas
just fifty eight cents, and Asian American women, though often
(00:24):
reported higher earnings, still face wide pay gaps depending on
ethnicity and industry. The numbers tell a story about the
urging need for change. I'm Juline Allen, and this is
Conversations or Equal Pay, where we talk with leaders, innovators,
(00:51):
and change makers about closing the gap and uplifting women
of color in the workplace. Conversations for equal Care. So
we're talking to Jen Spoke today, the executive director of
(01:11):
the National Domestic Workers Alliance. As a tireless advocate and leader,
she is at the forefront of the movement to uplift
domestic workers and ensure they have the respect, rights and
protections they deserve. Jen, the National Domestic Workers Alliance has
(01:33):
been at the forefront of securing protections for millions of workers.
From your perspective, what are the most significant legislative or
policy barriers that still exists for domestic workers to achieve
fair and equal pay?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, Juline I'm so happy to be with you. And
just to give a little more context to who domestic
workers are. These are the women who are the nannies, housecleaners,
and the care workers who are in our lives, taking
care of our homes and our loved ones, often in
private homes. And these women are largely women of color,
(02:17):
lots of immigrant women who are domestic workers. And so
what we see as a real barrier are domestic workers
as a sector of workers being excluded from labor protections
that a lot of workers benefit from in this country.
And that exclusion has been in existence since the New Deal,
since the nineteen thirties, when other workers got protections such
(02:40):
as overtime pay, sick leave, freedom from harassment, domestic workers
were not granted that protection and so we've been really
fighting naturally to ensure that they can get the protections
that they deserve.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. You've
made it clear how well, basically it's eye opening to
hear about these gaps that it still exists today.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, we know that they exist, you know for a reason.
The way that care work is viewed, the way that
the women are viewed who do this work is very
racialized engendered. Back in the nineteen thirties, when other workers
were granted those critical protections, we know that the majority
(03:35):
of folks who did care work and work in the
home they were black women, and so they were purposely
excluded from those protections. So those exclusions still exist today,
like I said, and a lot of it is because
of racism. So so much of the work that we
do really has a racial justice and gender justice lens
(03:55):
as well as labor justice.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah. Could you share a story about a specific campaign
or victory that the and DWA has had that directly
resulted in better pay and working conditions for a group
of workers.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, of course. So we are advocating every day to
pass what we call the Bill of Rights on the
national level. This is a bill that would ensure the
domestic workers are really included in other benefits that workers have.
But while we're advocating at the national level, we've been
(04:36):
able to pass bills across over a dozen cities and
states to ensure that domestic workers in places like New York,
the state of California, in places like the city of Philly,
places where you have a real density of domestic workers,
where they can have those rights. So I think look
at that as such a big win and wins that
(04:59):
will continue to keep the drum beat on, you know,
in subsequent years, making sure that we can get as
many domestic workers covered as we can.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, And when I think about other places, I think
about my own city, Chicago. Yes, be has a high
immigrant population and I'm sure has a demographic of domestic workers.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
It does, Julian, And you should know also that we
are the Alliance is an organization of affiliates and chapters,
so we do work across the US to advocate for
the rights, dignity and respective domestic workers. And we have
a big president presidence in Chicago. So we do a
lot of organizing with domestic workers in Chicago and have
(05:49):
been able to pass legislation and do a lot of
good work there.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah. So how is the work you do with domestic
workers tied to the broader fight for racial and gender justice.
You kind of touched on that a little bit already.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Mm hmmm. I said that the majority of domestic workers
are women over ninety percent, so many women of color,
largely immigrant women. And I think that raising standards for
domestic workers really speaks to pay equity and pay gaps
in a different way. A lot of times when people
(06:26):
think about pay equity, in my experience, they'll they'll talk about,
you know, more like white collar jobs or sectors that
are really geared towards folks who are higher earners. And
you know, when we think about women of color being
in low wage jobs and we think about working families,
(06:48):
you know, we think about pay equity in a different lens.
It's really about just advancing economic justice. It's about the
advancement of like reproductive freedom and autonomy. It's about really
investing in care broadly being the investment in racial and
(07:09):
gender equity, just because of what we know about the
history of the workforce and the sector, and that so
many exclusions and ideals about the work were really built
upon like racist like Jim Crow laws and sentiments. So
dismantling that is about like dismantling racism as well, and
(07:34):
it is about ensuring that people can take care of
other families while not sacrificing that care for their family too.
A lot of members will often tell me, like, you know,
how they love doing their jobs. You know, it's that
they want to be paid a fair wage and they
want to be able to take care of their family
as well.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah, you highlighted how these issues are not separate, there
so intertwined, and really the lack of legislation or protection
for domestic workers really stem from African Americans being the
(08:14):
ones that were doing this work on and so they
were not protected because of you know, racism. But yes,
these issues are intertwined.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, we know that black women who were enslaved did
this work. You know, like when we think about chattel
slavery in the US, we know that that black women
and black people were the folks who were caring for
folks and doing it for free, and so that has
kind of dictated the how the work has been like
(08:53):
historically valued, and so much of our work is about
changing that perception.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, so what drew you to this work and what
does it feel like to lead an organization that is
so deeply connected to the lives of so many.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think, like a lot of folks, I came into
this work and really came into the realization of my
own care story and how the you know, every step
in my life has been dictated by who I've cared
for or who I've had the privilege of uh being
(09:30):
taking care of by And so I was a younger mother.
I had my daughter when I was in college, and
I know firsthand how difficult it was to find affordable childcare,
for example. So I had a deep understanding as I
came up into my understanding of like systems, that it
(09:54):
wasn't just a personal problem, you know, that it was systemic,
and that there's so many people people in this country
that are doing you know, what is perceived to be
everything right, you know, and they still have issues finding
you know, childcare, making sure that their loved ones can
get taken care of. So realizing that and like having
(10:17):
such rich experiences with folks who were caretaking really gave
me a good understanding of the women who do this work. Also,
just speaking about folks who took care of me, my
grandmother was one of the folks who took care of me.
She was a house cleaner for most of her life
(10:38):
in Charlotte, North Carolina. She had such a respect for
her work, and so that is always kind of gave
me a good understanding of how I was to think
about her work too. She did it in such a
dignified way. It was such decent work to her, and
so that has always been my understanding of it, and
(10:59):
coming into to be able to have the privilege to
lead this organization has given me a newfound appreciation for
being able to organize alongside care workers. I also think that,
you know, the organizing that we do is so special,
you know, just because of the demographics of the women
that we serve. We know that they are coming to
(11:22):
us and we're their home because they're domestic workers, but
their mothers, sisters, nieces, their grandmothers, a lot of them
are paid to do care work and their family caregivers.
So just really appreciate, like organize alongside them and having
such appreciation for their whole selves. That has been one
(11:43):
of the just amazing benefits about being able to do
this work, traveling across the country and meeting so many
like amazing women.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, your story is certainly inspiring and it's good to
hear about your conviction to do this work. I was
telling Christina earlier that a couple of family members take
care of my grandmother, and really that we are somehow
(12:14):
connected to this, or we're related to this in some way,
and many of us, probably at some point or another,
had to find a caretaker for our children or a
caretaker for an elderly or disabled person in our lives.
(12:36):
So we're intertwined and interconnected with.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
This absolutely as black women too. I feel like Juline
is quite cultural, you know, like the collectivity of just
like black black people and black women and like matriarchal families.
I think just gives us such a different perspective on
the work. And I would say, I'm thirty nine years old,
(13:01):
and something that I reflect on is the fact that
women who are my age and older there's most likely
a connection to care work or care workers in some way,
whether we're descendants of care workers, we come from a
lineage of people who are domestic workers, and we're kind
of coming into an understanding about that, or we're like
(13:24):
caretaking ourselves. Sometimes we don't have the words to say,
like I'm like taking care of my grandmother or my aunt,
you know, but a lot of what we do is
care is caretaking, and we're doing care work, you know.
It's it's unpaid care work, but it's care work. So
I think just the awareness of the cultural aspects is
(13:44):
just given a different layer in doing this work, you know.
And we are a multi lingual, multi ethnic, multi racial movement,
and so I see the threads of that work and
the collectivity, really see it across the way that we
do the work, the way we're community with each other
and we're always singing and dancing, like it shows up
(14:07):
in so many different ways. So it's a real privilege.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
So what is the one thing you wish more people
understood about domestic worker industry?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I spoke a little bit about how you know, there's
there's paid work and as an industry, and then there
is unpaid work. And I wish people knew that that
industry care work period. If looked at you know, all together,
it's huge. It's like a one trillion dollar industry, you know,
(14:42):
such a large piece of the economy, and women are
so central, you know, women are doing that work and
propping up, you know, so much in this economy. So
that I wish people I wish people really knew that
and understood it. I think oftentimes women do this work
as a calling, they do it as an expectation, they
(15:06):
do it because they want to do it, they're expected
to do it, and I think sometimes it has the
ability to not give us the fullest picture about how
many people are impacted, or the exact dollar amount you
know that this industry is worth when you zoom out,
So it's a lot of money, you know, in our economy.
(15:27):
And that's what I wish people understood.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
It is an important reminder for many of people who
might take this for granted, that care workers, domestic workers
bring in tremendous value to our economy and it and
to our worlds. They are people that are at the
(15:52):
center of things. During COVID, they were they still had
to work, they didn't have the luxury of staying at home,
and we're in the reliant on domestic workers.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, and we find, Julie that like often in crisis,
you know, domestic workers and care workers are on the
front line. We found that out during COVID, you know,
with the lack of ppe and other protections. And we
find that in you know, the environmental crises that we're
seeing as well, whether it's the fires in California or
(16:31):
some of the hurricanes. We know that like often times,
domestic workers are taking care of people in their homes
and they are you know, considered essential. They're being asked
to do really difficult things and often are on the
front lines. And so they really deserve extra protections, you know,
(16:51):
due to that.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, So have you ever had to fight for fair
pain or reconie in your all career and if so,
how has that experience shaped your leadership.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
It's a great question. I've been really lucky to work
alongside a lot of strong women. I was working in
reproductive rights early in my career, and I transitioned into
working in electoral politics, and I remember getting a new
job and I was up for a promotion, but I
(17:32):
had no real understanding of the amount of money that
I should be asking for. So I'll never forget that.
I had a conversation with my coworker who still remains
my friend to this day. Her name is Danielle, and
she just just told me, you know, this is what
I'm making, this is what this person is making, and
(17:52):
this is what this person is making. She really laid
it out and was very clear, like she like told me,
you know, this is what I'm making. You should ask
for at least this, this is what your peers are making.
So that just was so like clarifying for me. I
read an interview about the View where Sherri Shephard actually
said that like Rosie o'donald did that for her. She
(18:15):
was like trying to advocate for her pay and she
was like, Rosie o'donnald was like, look, I make two
million dollars, you know dollars, here's what this person makes
in this person. So I think that has the ability
to unlock, you know something, And I'm very thankful that
Danielle did that for me. And so yeah, I think
that it's oftentimes, like you know, women like supporting each
(18:38):
other and being very like transparent, I think is what
I have definitely been a beneficiary of and very aware
of the ability to carry that forward too in the
way that I navigate.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
And K brings up another conversation about that there should
be more trans parency around how much we're getting paid,
and fellow employees should be able to tell each other
how much they're paid, and it's still this level of
secrecy and surrounding how much we get paid, and companies
(19:18):
tend to not like that very much. But I'm sure
you're thankful that you had a friend that opened up
to you about how much they were getting paid and
how much your colleagues were getting paid. That look, that
is a.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
A valuable thing to have it really is, And Danielle
is a white woman. I want to know as well.
And I think that I don't know if you've experienced this, Julane,
but like I had to unlearn a lot of like
you know, shame, you know that I had around money,
just like my thoughts about money, how I valued it,
(19:57):
how I talked about it, you know how what really
relationship I had with it. I really had to like
grapple with that and realize that some of the conversations
that I, you know, didn't want to have were really
about like not knowing how to navigate and not growing
up in a household where that was like okay to do,
(20:17):
and also like being like it's a lot wrapped up
in there being Southern, you know, being being polite, you know,
taught to not be assertive in this way.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
So yes, it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Comes up, and you know, I will say, like it
comes up across our membership too. I love, you know,
sitting in and hearing some of our members just talk
about negotiations, give each other wise counsel on how they
negotiate their own pay, different tactics that they use, you know,
how to know when you're you should ask for a
(20:49):
race so it's really illuminating and it gives me a
good understanding of how they navigate their roles because you're
you're in a private home and there are so many
like power dynamics and on display. But let me tell
you something, they have no problem being like, oh, you're
being asked to walk the dog, wash the dishes, and
(21:11):
wash the baby's clothes. Okay, that's like separate jobs. You
need to renegotiate. So they've like taught me a lot
too about like being very clear, you know, and negotiating
and like understanding like you're worth you know. So I
love like sitting in on their conversations as well.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
And that's the power of being a part of an organization.
If you if you don't have the pure support within
your workplace, but being a part of an external organization
there is power. And being a part of something like
that where you're able to have pure support and people
(21:51):
that will cheer you on along the way.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, it's about having that community, you know, and people
that you can turn to so important. Whether it's a
Danielle at your job who you can just get on
the zoom and say, girl, what's going on with these salaries?
Or it's with other people who work in the same
sector as you, or a part of an organization and
a member of an organization that you can really be
(22:15):
honest with and talk to.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
So, for our listeners who want to be allies, what's
the most effective way for them to support the NDWA
and help advance your mission.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
You know, we are the organization that fights for and
represents the two point two million domestic workers in this country,
but we are building a powerful movement of people who
really understand care and understand the struggle and the difficulty
around like taking care of our loved ones. So I
(22:52):
would say that one thing that I would implore folks
to do is to go to our website and it's
Domestic Workers dot org and really sign up to be
on our list, can stay on our email list, get
more information whether we're fighting for bills at the national level,
whether we're asking you to call your elected official. Will
(23:15):
always really like give you things to do if you're
politically minded, like we have a sister organization called Care
and Action, So really tap into our movement is what
I would.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Encourage folks to do.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Go on our website and learn about everything that we do,
and sign up so that you can learn more and
stay connected with us.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Thank you for sharing that, and it's definitely encouraging that
there are some concrete steps that we can take.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yes, the other the last thing I would say is
telling your story oftentimes, like if you say, you know,
can you talk about you know a time where you've
cared for somebody or they cared for you, and can
you tell us about your care story, people will just
have such rich stories and experiences and it can unlock
(24:07):
so much for other folks. So I think storytelling is
how we connect with each other and have a good
understanding of the things that tie us together. So go
to Domestic workers dot org. But also tell the story about,
you know, how someone took care of you and really
transform things for you, or tell stories about how you
(24:30):
take care of other folks. I think it's really important.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
It is it is really critical work and definitely it
is definitely needed, and I hope that domestic workers get
the rights and privileges that they deserve. Thank you, Julie.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
We're fighting for it every single day.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Well, Jan that's all the questions I have for today.
Thank you for joining me. It's been an honor. Thank
you that's it for this episode of Conversations for Equal Pay.
To tune into more episodes, lock onto our website at
Conversations forequalpay dot org. You're listening to Conversations for Equal
(25:18):
Pay
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