November 20, 2025 • 24 mins
Host Julene Allen sits down with Dr. Kate Gallagher Robbins, Sr. Economic Justice Fellow at the National Partnership for Women & Families, to confront the brutal truth: The current national environment is failing women of color and is neutralizing progress.Dr. Robbins brings over a decade of experience from organizations like TIME'S UP and the National Women's Law Center, focusing her current research on how policy impacts women of color, disabled women, and LGBTQIA+ women. Dr. Robbins reveals the unseen policy crisis—from discriminatory policies to the immense economic challenge of caregiving—that is widening the gap. She offers a clear-eyed look at the forces pushing women of color out of the workforce and the policies that are actively dismantling progress.What you'll discover:
- The Policy Shocks: The specific cuts and legislative failures that are exacerbating inequities and who they hurt the most.
- The Unavoidable Fix: Why a national Paid Leave program isn't just a political talking point—it's the only way to stabilize the economy for families.
- Beyond Compliance: Practical, high-impact actions every company must take, including the surprising power of unions and salary transparency.
- Your Toolkit: Dr. Robbins shares concrete advice for women to negotiate their value and shows how everyday consumership is a powerful new tool for change.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Across the board, women continue to earn less than men.
White women make about eighty cents to a man's dollar,
Black women earned sixty six cents, Native women and latinas
just fifty eight cents, and Asian American women, though often
(00:24):
reported higher earnings, still face wide pay gaps depending on
ethnicity and industry. The numbers tell a story about the
urging need for change. I'm Juline Allen, and this is
Conversations or Equal Pay, where we talk with leaders, innovators,
(00:51):
and change makers about closing the gap and uplifting women
of color in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Listening to Conversations for Equal Care, we're talking to doctor
Kate Gallager Robbins today, the Senior Economic Justice Fellow at
the National Partnership for Women and Families.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
A nationally recognized expert on gender and racial equity, Kate
has dedicated her career to advancing policies that strengthen economic
security for women, particularly women of color, through research, advocacy,
and systemic change. Thank you for joining us today, Kate, Juline, thank.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
You so much for having me on for this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So, Kate, giving your extensive background and economic justice, what
are the most significant barriers that still prevent women, particularly
women of color, from achieving equal pay in the US today.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
There are so many barriers that prevent women of color
and all women from achieving equal pay, and there's some
that women have been facing for generations. So, first off,
women face a long history of discrimination at work. What
kinds of jobs they can do? Do they get that promotion?
(02:21):
Are they able to be paid fairly compared to their
male counterparts? And that is doubly difficult for women of
color who are facing both racism and sexism on the job.
But there are also factors outside of work that are
contributing to a lack of equal pay for women, namely
(02:42):
the balance between caregiving and taking care of their families,
and that work falls disproportionately on women when they're trying
to compare that to their time in the paid labor market.
So our research shows Americans do a trillion with a
tea unpaid care work every year and women are doing
(03:03):
two thirds of that work.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Wow, that is it is definitely a stark difference between
women and men, and caregiving is predominantly follows on women,
particularly women of color. Asian American women are disproportionately affected
by caregiving.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Is that that's right. That's right too. Lean Asian American
women are doing almost an hour of unpaid caregiving every day,
and that's more than any other group of women.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
So the National Partnership for Women and Families has a
long history of advocating for policies like pay, family and
medical leaf. How does the lack of these policies directly
contribute to and widen the gender and racial pay gap.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, we the National Partnership, have been fighting for more
than fifty years for policies that support working women, and
we have had some great victories with our partners and
other activists, things like the Family and Medical Leave Act,
which gave women job and men job protected leave, Things
like the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, which enshrined common sense
(04:20):
accommodations for pregnant workers on the job, like being able
to have water during work or sit on a stool
of your nine months pregnant. But while we've made some
important progress, there's still so much more to do, and unfortunately,
the Trump era policies are actually taking us backwards. So
(04:40):
if you look at Trump's changes over the last nine months,
they've likely driven increases in pay disparities so we're talking
about things like cutting government workers who we know are
especially likely to be black women, sort of dismantling things
like the EEOC, undermining that organization which combats discrimination and
(05:04):
unfair pay at work, undercutting protections for federal contractors. So
our tax dollars at work should not be leading to discrimination,
and yet the president and Trump's policies have been undercutting
those efforts. And so we've made a lot of progress,
(05:26):
we still have so much further to go, and unfortunately
we're actually moving backwards over the last couple of months
at the national level.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Just going back to paid family lead the medical leave.
It's it's not just the benefit, which many people think
that it's just the benefit. It is a it is
a necessity.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yes, paid family and medical leave is a necessity. There's
I think every one of us has had an experience,
whether we're taking care of a family member, taking care
of ourselves. I think people don't always realize this, but
the most common use for paid family and medical leave
is actually personal medical leave. Something happens, you break an ekal,
(06:17):
you need to have chemo, you know, like these are
the things people use them for, and everybody needs it,
right everybody, name one person out there who has not
gotten sick, gotten injured, or had a loved one in
that circumstance. And no one should be in the position
of having to choose between I need to take my
(06:39):
mom to this doctor's appointment and help advocate for her
and you know, take care of her after surgery, or
I'm going to lose my job. No one should be
in that position.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Absolutely, and women, it's it's critical for women and women
of color to have it. I mean, it's critical for everyone,
but it's so critical for women and women of color
have it because caregiving and caring for children and loved
ones that disproportionnately falls on women.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, it absolutely does. And I think the other thing
people don't always realize is, you know, some folks get
paid leave through their jobs, and we can talk about
that as well, But the people who are least likely
to be getting this paid family and medical leave is
exactly women and women of color, because they're working in
(07:35):
the kinds of jobs where their employers are less likely
to provide this leave, right, And so it's this sort
of I use this phrase a lot like this compounding factor,
where you know women of color are doing so much
of the caregiving, and they're also less likely to be
having the leave and the supports that they need that,
(07:56):
as you rightly say, are not a benefit, they are
a necessity for life and for this balance. And so
you're seeing that double whammy at work every day.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Absolutely, So from your perspective, what role do employers in
the private sector have in closing the pay gap and
what are the most effective actions they can take beyond
legal compliance?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah, legal compliance is a great start, and let's make
sure they're doing that. But you know, I think sometimes
because the laws and the policy changes are so important,
we don't talk enough about what businesses can be doing
themselves right. And so there's a whole range of things
that businesses can focus on. First of all, they can
(08:49):
look at their own books and conduct what we call
an equal pay audit, so they can look across all
of their employees, take into account job type, gender, disability,
all the factors that we know impact pay, and do
an internal analysis of hey, are we actually paying everybody
(09:10):
equitably just ourselves? Just to start with, that's like I
want to say, the bare minimum those so many companies
are not doing it, and then they should also make
that public to their employees, so people know and understand
even if they're falling short, what are the commitments they
have to getting to pay equity for people. So that's
(09:32):
really important. They should also be transparent. I think you've
probably seen if you look at jobs listings in the
last couple of years, there's a greater focus now on
your applying for a job. And you and I know,
twenty years ago it never said how much it was
going to be right. You were kind of guessing what
am I going to get paid here? And now there's
(09:54):
an increasing move and some states have legislation around paid transparency,
but that's an act. Employers can easily take post the
job with the amount of salary that it's going to have.
And then, you know, one other thing I would say
that I think is a little under the radar is
supporting unions. You know, we know that unions increase pay
(10:19):
for everyone, but there's a smaller gender wage gap among
union workers. The effects are particularly big for Latinas who
see the biggest union bump. So if you're an employer
and your employees are organizing or you're already have a union,
supporting that union and working in good faith with that
(10:39):
union is a huge step to pay transparency and pay equity.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, it is encouraging that there are steps that employers
can take, but I would like to see more companies
commit to those steps.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yes, companies, And this is where I think that consumer
buyer power is so important. Is you know, by from
companies you know we're doing the right thing. Do a
little bit of research, and they're usually pretty good at saying,
hey we don't have a way to yap, or hey
we are committed to pay equity. You know, they like
(11:15):
to highlight these things because if it's a value for
the company, it can be a value for the consumer.
And I do think, you know, it's very important. This
has made a lot of progress in terms of the
environmental movement, but I do think we have farther to
go in the pay equity movement of folks and consumers
focusing on and we know women drive a lot of
(11:37):
the consumer economy by from companies who are doing the
right thing, and that's going to help move more companies
to do the right thing.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, you know, and it's kind of difficult in today's
economy when there are companies that are solely are driving
the marketplace for a particular product, So you don't you
don't have any choice but to go to that particular,
that particular company. So, but you're right, actionabal steps that
(12:10):
people can take is actually buying from companies that are
doing the right thing.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So your work often focused on telling a holistic story
about the policies that support women. Could you elaborate on
how separate issues like access to affordable childcare and pay
leads are fundamentally linked to a woman's economic security and
her ability to earn equal pay.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, you know, I think of this so much in
our work because we often have these policies that might
be focused on maternity leave or focused on paid discrimination,
but in people's everyday lies, it's all part and parcel
of the same conversation, right, and is like it's Tuesday,
(13:01):
it's paid discrimination day. Tomorrow I'm going to wake up
and think about childcare, right, It's on your mind all
the time, and so, well, you know, one example I
think about a lot is, you know, if you're a
mom and you're thinking about maybe going back to work,
but childcare costs more than you're actually going to make
(13:23):
at your job, and in part because you're being paid
less at your job than maybe a man might be
being paid. That's going to impact your decision on how
much you work, what kind of work you do, And
of course that time out of the labor market is
going to impact your economic security, not just now, but
(13:46):
way into the future. You know, some people who are
twenty years younger than I am are just starting out
in their career and they're maybe not thinking about their
retirement right. It seems far away, but the decisions they're
making today are impacting that, and that influences everything, you know.
I think a lot about my grandmother who had six kids.
(14:09):
She's basically raising kids. She'd a kid in the house
for over thirty five years, and that was of course
at a time when we didn't have maternity leave, which
we still don't have, and of course that impacted her
inability to be able to go into the paid libor
force and have her own economic security right. And so
(14:32):
these things are so intimately connected in people's everyday lives
and the decisions they're making for themselves, their careers, their families.
All of those factors are shaped together, which is why
we need so many multifaceted solutions that truly support people
across the board.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, and you bring up the balot point. I know
a woman in particular who chose not to work and
stay at home and take care of her children while
they were young because childcare was so expensive it just
didn't make sense to work. And so these are the
choices that women have to make. So, looking at the
(15:17):
current political and economic landscape, what gives you the most
hope that we can finally close the pay gap for good?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I love this question because I think it's so hopeful
and the right one for us to keep in mind,
particularly in this moment when everything feels like it's on fire,
right and we're on the heels of the pay gap
getting wider for the second year in a row. I
would say the good news here is we know a
(15:46):
lot about what works to help close the pay gap.
And there are the things you and I have been
chatting about already, Right, how do we support women's caregiving
and childcare responsibilities? How do we have childcare? Also? How
do you help women go into some jobs that are
maybe a little non traditional for them, things like construction,
(16:07):
things like manufacturing where the pay might be better right
than say waitressing or you know, working in an early
child care facility. We both need to improve the pay
across all jobs and open new doors for women into
non traditional jobs. So we have a lot of tools
at our disposal that will help us close the wage gap.
(16:32):
And then I would say the second thing that's good
about those is these things are popular. People get it,
they want paid leave, they love childcare right, and so
people across of all different stripes, political affiliations, regional, you know,
all different groups of different racial groups, men and women,
(16:53):
they are behind these policies that we know support people,
support all working people and help to close the wage gap.
So I would say we have the tools, and people
like the tools. We just need to be able to
use them.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, it's encouraging to hear the change is actually happening,
all these organizations that are coming together to close the
page gap. Even though it's incremental, but change is happening.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yes. Absolutely. You look back at where we were when
the equal payacked passed some sixty plus years ago, and
we've closed the gap dramatically, and so it is possible.
And I think that's the important thing for folks to
keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, so many young women starting their careers are unsure
how to navigate salary negotiations. What is your single most
important piece of advice for a young women to ensure
she has paid what she's worked from the very beginning
of her career.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, it's a great question, and it's a hard one
because we've talked about all these systemic factors.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Unfortunately, there's nothing any individual woman can do to like
de haack, all of that at one time, but there
are certainly some individual level things. So first of all,
as we were chatting about pay transparency, you know, do
your research if you want to go be a graphic
designer or a nurse or a teacher, look around, look
(18:34):
at glassdoor, and indeed research what the pay is for
your field, your organization, so you're equipped to be able
to make, you know, make those decisions and evaluate if
the pay is being done fairly. We also talked about
from a consumer perspective, trying to work for companies or sorry,
(18:55):
trying to buy from companies who hold your values. That's
true as a worker too, right, especially for some of
these bigger companies, you can do research into knowing what
types of policies they have, who they support, what they support.
So you know, young men, young women, young everybody they
can all look into that and know what's happening. I
(19:18):
would also say, you know, it's in the States, it's
a little taboo to talk about money. People don't talk
about how much they're making. But maybe be that change
chat with your girlfriends. You know, this is what I'm
considering with this job. This it's gonna pay me fifty
thousand dollars. What do you think about that? Does that
(19:39):
seem fair?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Sort of break down those barriers that we have that
keep you know, folks in the dark about how much
they're making. And then I'll just add to say, you know,
organizations like the National Partnership where I work, we try
to put out information about companies who are leading in
these the areas. We have a project called the Leading
(20:03):
on Leave Index. It assesses paid leave policies and highlights
some leaders of paid leave policies. So you can always
look to sort of you know, independent third parties who
are kind of doing that work for you and pulling
all the information together to assess things.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
And also even if it's your first job at McDonald's.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Negotiate, negotiate. It never hurts to ask right, never hurts,
and keep negotiating right. Once you're in there, ask to
move up. Right. I think women in particular think they're
not qualified or they're you know, not ready for it.
But yes, keep pushing.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, giving your work with the National Partnership. What is
a simple actionable step a young woman can take today
to support policy changes will benefit not only her but
also future generations of women in the workforce.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah, I feel like I'm assigning a lot of homework
to all these young women, but I do think My
answer again is, you know, do your research. Do you
know what your values are? You know what you're supporting,
and if it's, for example, diversity, equity and inclusion policies
that ensure that women, women of color, disabled women have
(21:28):
a fair shot in the workplace, you know, figure out
which politicians are supporting that, which policy makers are supporting that.
So you can align your values with the values of
the people that say you're voting for or supporting in
some other way. Right, make those informed choices to make
(21:50):
sure that the people you're working with and you know, supporting,
are aligned with where you wanted to go. And that's
true for example, if you in a state where maybe
there's ballad initiatives, sometimes it's a little confusing. There's a
lot of language on those, but you know, take your time,
do your research, make sure you're registered to vote, and
(22:12):
then dig in so you know that your voice is
being heard, not just for your own future, but for
all of the policies that you want to see to
support everyone. Right, So that's kind of I guess maybe
the last piece of homework I would give people is
engage in your local community and up to the national
(22:32):
level and really learn about the things that you hold
dear and that you think are important and who also
supports those.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
And I will just add on today, just follow organizations
like National Partnership for Women and Families that are doing
the work and they suggest actionable steps that you can take.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
That's a great point, and I should have said that.
You know, if you sign up for an org like ours,
you're on our list serve. We'll let you know. We
have our finger on the pulls. You know. We have
folks who are meeting with legislators. We know, you know,
like if there's going to be a vote in Congress,
we can help demystify that for you and be able
to say, hey, this is happening right now, this would
(23:18):
support fair pay or this would support paid leave and
here's what you can do. So yeah, definitely sign up
for those so that piece of information and we and
our partners will be sure to tell you what's going on.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Well, thank you so much, Kate. That is some excellent
advice and it's great that there are some actionable steps
that we can take that will really impact generational change.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Well, thank you so much, Juliane. And also you guys
should keep listening to Julin. I mean, she's going to
keep bringing you all this great information and all these
different perspectives, so make sure you're doing that as well.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
That's it for this episode of Conversations for Equal Pay.
To tune into more episodes, log onto our website at
Conversations forequalpay dot org. You're listening to Conversations for Equal
Pay
Across the board, women continue to earn less than men.
White women make about eighty cents to a man's dollar,
Black women earned sixty six cents, Native women and latinas
just fifty eight cents, and Asian American women, though often
(00:24):
reported higher earnings, still face wide pay gaps depending on
ethnicity and industry. The numbers tell a story about the
urging need for change. I'm Juline Allen, and this is
Conversations or Equal Pay, where we talk with leaders, innovators,
(00:51):
and change makers about closing the gap and uplifting women
of color in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Listening to Conversations for Equal Care, we're talking to doctor
Kate Gallager Robbins today, the Senior Economic Justice Fellow at
the National Partnership for Women and Families.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
A nationally recognized expert on gender and racial equity, Kate
has dedicated her career to advancing policies that strengthen economic
security for women, particularly women of color, through research, advocacy,
and systemic change. Thank you for joining us today, Kate, Juline, thank.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
You so much for having me on for this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So, Kate, giving your extensive background and economic justice, what
are the most significant barriers that still prevent women, particularly
women of color, from achieving equal pay in the US today.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
There are so many barriers that prevent women of color
and all women from achieving equal pay, and there's some
that women have been facing for generations. So, first off,
women face a long history of discrimination at work. What
kinds of jobs they can do? Do they get that promotion?
(02:21):
Are they able to be paid fairly compared to their
male counterparts? And that is doubly difficult for women of
color who are facing both racism and sexism on the job.
But there are also factors outside of work that are
contributing to a lack of equal pay for women, namely
(02:42):
the balance between caregiving and taking care of their families,
and that work falls disproportionately on women when they're trying
to compare that to their time in the paid labor market.
So our research shows Americans do a trillion with a
tea unpaid care work every year and women are doing
(03:03):
two thirds of that work.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Wow, that is it is definitely a stark difference between
women and men, and caregiving is predominantly follows on women,
particularly women of color. Asian American women are disproportionately affected
by caregiving.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Is that that's right. That's right too. Lean Asian American
women are doing almost an hour of unpaid caregiving every day,
and that's more than any other group of women.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
So the National Partnership for Women and Families has a
long history of advocating for policies like pay, family and
medical leaf. How does the lack of these policies directly
contribute to and widen the gender and racial pay gap.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, we the National Partnership, have been fighting for more
than fifty years for policies that support working women, and
we have had some great victories with our partners and
other activists, things like the Family and Medical Leave Act,
which gave women job and men job protected leave, Things
like the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, which enshrined common sense
(04:20):
accommodations for pregnant workers on the job, like being able
to have water during work or sit on a stool
of your nine months pregnant. But while we've made some
important progress, there's still so much more to do, and unfortunately,
the Trump era policies are actually taking us backwards. So
(04:40):
if you look at Trump's changes over the last nine months,
they've likely driven increases in pay disparities so we're talking
about things like cutting government workers who we know are
especially likely to be black women, sort of dismantling things
like the EEOC, undermining that organization which combats discrimination and
(05:04):
unfair pay at work, undercutting protections for federal contractors. So
our tax dollars at work should not be leading to discrimination,
and yet the president and Trump's policies have been undercutting
those efforts. And so we've made a lot of progress,
(05:26):
we still have so much further to go, and unfortunately
we're actually moving backwards over the last couple of months
at the national level.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Just going back to paid family lead the medical leave.
It's it's not just the benefit, which many people think
that it's just the benefit. It is a it is
a necessity.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yes, paid family and medical leave is a necessity. There's
I think every one of us has had an experience,
whether we're taking care of a family member, taking care
of ourselves. I think people don't always realize this, but
the most common use for paid family and medical leave
is actually personal medical leave. Something happens, you break an ekal,
(06:17):
you need to have chemo, you know, like these are
the things people use them for, and everybody needs it,
right everybody, name one person out there who has not
gotten sick, gotten injured, or had a loved one in
that circumstance. And no one should be in the position
of having to choose between I need to take my
(06:39):
mom to this doctor's appointment and help advocate for her
and you know, take care of her after surgery, or
I'm going to lose my job. No one should be
in that position.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Absolutely, and women, it's it's critical for women and women
of color to have it. I mean, it's critical for everyone,
but it's so critical for women and women of color
have it because caregiving and caring for children and loved
ones that disproportionnately falls on women.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, it absolutely does. And I think the other thing
people don't always realize is, you know, some folks get
paid leave through their jobs, and we can talk about
that as well, But the people who are least likely
to be getting this paid family and medical leave is
exactly women and women of color, because they're working in
(07:35):
the kinds of jobs where their employers are less likely
to provide this leave, right, And so it's this sort
of I use this phrase a lot like this compounding factor,
where you know women of color are doing so much
of the caregiving, and they're also less likely to be
having the leave and the supports that they need that,
(07:56):
as you rightly say, are not a benefit, they are
a necessity for life and for this balance. And so
you're seeing that double whammy at work every day.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Absolutely, So from your perspective, what role do employers in
the private sector have in closing the pay gap and
what are the most effective actions they can take beyond
legal compliance?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah, legal compliance is a great start, and let's make
sure they're doing that. But you know, I think sometimes
because the laws and the policy changes are so important,
we don't talk enough about what businesses can be doing
themselves right. And so there's a whole range of things
that businesses can focus on. First of all, they can
(08:49):
look at their own books and conduct what we call
an equal pay audit, so they can look across all
of their employees, take into account job type, gender, disability,
all the factors that we know impact pay, and do
an internal analysis of hey, are we actually paying everybody
(09:10):
equitably just ourselves? Just to start with, that's like I
want to say, the bare minimum those so many companies
are not doing it, and then they should also make
that public to their employees, so people know and understand
even if they're falling short, what are the commitments they
have to getting to pay equity for people. So that's
(09:32):
really important. They should also be transparent. I think you've
probably seen if you look at jobs listings in the
last couple of years, there's a greater focus now on
your applying for a job. And you and I know,
twenty years ago it never said how much it was
going to be right. You were kind of guessing what
am I going to get paid here? And now there's
(09:54):
an increasing move and some states have legislation around paid transparency,
but that's an act. Employers can easily take post the
job with the amount of salary that it's going to have.
And then, you know, one other thing I would say
that I think is a little under the radar is
supporting unions. You know, we know that unions increase pay
(10:19):
for everyone, but there's a smaller gender wage gap among
union workers. The effects are particularly big for Latinas who
see the biggest union bump. So if you're an employer
and your employees are organizing or you're already have a union,
supporting that union and working in good faith with that
(10:39):
union is a huge step to pay transparency and pay equity.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, it is encouraging that there are steps that employers
can take, but I would like to see more companies
commit to those steps.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yes, companies, And this is where I think that consumer
buyer power is so important. Is you know, by from
companies you know we're doing the right thing. Do a
little bit of research, and they're usually pretty good at saying,
hey we don't have a way to yap, or hey
we are committed to pay equity. You know, they like
(11:15):
to highlight these things because if it's a value for
the company, it can be a value for the consumer.
And I do think, you know, it's very important. This
has made a lot of progress in terms of the
environmental movement, but I do think we have farther to
go in the pay equity movement of folks and consumers
focusing on and we know women drive a lot of
(11:37):
the consumer economy by from companies who are doing the
right thing, and that's going to help move more companies
to do the right thing.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, you know, and it's kind of difficult in today's
economy when there are companies that are solely are driving
the marketplace for a particular product, So you don't you
don't have any choice but to go to that particular,
that particular company. So, but you're right, actionabal steps that
(12:10):
people can take is actually buying from companies that are
doing the right thing.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So your work often focused on telling a holistic story
about the policies that support women. Could you elaborate on
how separate issues like access to affordable childcare and pay
leads are fundamentally linked to a woman's economic security and
her ability to earn equal pay.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, you know, I think of this so much in
our work because we often have these policies that might
be focused on maternity leave or focused on paid discrimination,
but in people's everyday lies, it's all part and parcel
of the same conversation, right, and is like it's Tuesday,
(13:01):
it's paid discrimination day. Tomorrow I'm going to wake up
and think about childcare, right, It's on your mind all
the time, and so, well, you know, one example I
think about a lot is, you know, if you're a
mom and you're thinking about maybe going back to work,
but childcare costs more than you're actually going to make
(13:23):
at your job, and in part because you're being paid
less at your job than maybe a man might be
being paid. That's going to impact your decision on how
much you work, what kind of work you do, And
of course that time out of the labor market is
going to impact your economic security, not just now, but
(13:46):
way into the future. You know, some people who are
twenty years younger than I am are just starting out
in their career and they're maybe not thinking about their
retirement right. It seems far away, but the decisions they're
making today are impacting that, and that influences everything, you know.
I think a lot about my grandmother who had six kids.
(14:09):
She's basically raising kids. She'd a kid in the house
for over thirty five years, and that was of course
at a time when we didn't have maternity leave, which
we still don't have, and of course that impacted her
inability to be able to go into the paid libor
force and have her own economic security right. And so
(14:32):
these things are so intimately connected in people's everyday lives
and the decisions they're making for themselves, their careers, their families.
All of those factors are shaped together, which is why
we need so many multifaceted solutions that truly support people
across the board.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, and you bring up the balot point. I know
a woman in particular who chose not to work and
stay at home and take care of her children while
they were young because childcare was so expensive it just
didn't make sense to work. And so these are the
choices that women have to make. So, looking at the
(15:17):
current political and economic landscape, what gives you the most
hope that we can finally close the pay gap for good?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I love this question because I think it's so hopeful
and the right one for us to keep in mind,
particularly in this moment when everything feels like it's on fire,
right and we're on the heels of the pay gap
getting wider for the second year in a row. I
would say the good news here is we know a
(15:46):
lot about what works to help close the pay gap.
And there are the things you and I have been
chatting about already, Right, how do we support women's caregiving
and childcare responsibilities? How do we have childcare? Also? How
do you help women go into some jobs that are
maybe a little non traditional for them, things like construction,
(16:07):
things like manufacturing where the pay might be better right
than say waitressing or you know, working in an early
child care facility. We both need to improve the pay
across all jobs and open new doors for women into
non traditional jobs. So we have a lot of tools
at our disposal that will help us close the wage gap.
(16:32):
And then I would say the second thing that's good
about those is these things are popular. People get it,
they want paid leave, they love childcare right, and so
people across of all different stripes, political affiliations, regional, you know,
all different groups of different racial groups, men and women,
(16:53):
they are behind these policies that we know support people,
support all working people and help to close the wage gap.
So I would say we have the tools, and people
like the tools. We just need to be able to
use them.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, it's encouraging to hear the change is actually happening,
all these organizations that are coming together to close the
page gap. Even though it's incremental, but change is happening.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yes. Absolutely. You look back at where we were when
the equal payacked passed some sixty plus years ago, and
we've closed the gap dramatically, and so it is possible.
And I think that's the important thing for folks to
keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, so many young women starting their careers are unsure
how to navigate salary negotiations. What is your single most
important piece of advice for a young women to ensure
she has paid what she's worked from the very beginning
of her career.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, it's a great question, and it's a hard one
because we've talked about all these systemic factors.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Unfortunately, there's nothing any individual woman can do to like
de haack, all of that at one time, but there
are certainly some individual level things. So first of all,
as we were chatting about pay transparency, you know, do
your research if you want to go be a graphic
designer or a nurse or a teacher, look around, look
(18:34):
at glassdoor, and indeed research what the pay is for
your field, your organization, so you're equipped to be able
to make, you know, make those decisions and evaluate if
the pay is being done fairly. We also talked about
from a consumer perspective, trying to work for companies or sorry,
(18:55):
trying to buy from companies who hold your values. That's
true as a worker too, right, especially for some of
these bigger companies, you can do research into knowing what
types of policies they have, who they support, what they support.
So you know, young men, young women, young everybody they
can all look into that and know what's happening. I
(19:18):
would also say, you know, it's in the States, it's
a little taboo to talk about money. People don't talk
about how much they're making. But maybe be that change
chat with your girlfriends. You know, this is what I'm
considering with this job. This it's gonna pay me fifty
thousand dollars. What do you think about that? Does that
(19:39):
seem fair?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Sort of break down those barriers that we have that
keep you know, folks in the dark about how much
they're making. And then I'll just add to say, you know,
organizations like the National Partnership where I work, we try
to put out information about companies who are leading in
these the areas. We have a project called the Leading
(20:03):
on Leave Index. It assesses paid leave policies and highlights
some leaders of paid leave policies. So you can always
look to sort of you know, independent third parties who
are kind of doing that work for you and pulling
all the information together to assess things.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
And also even if it's your first job at McDonald's.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Negotiate, negotiate. It never hurts to ask right, never hurts,
and keep negotiating right. Once you're in there, ask to
move up. Right. I think women in particular think they're
not qualified or they're you know, not ready for it.
But yes, keep pushing.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, giving your work with the National Partnership. What is
a simple actionable step a young woman can take today
to support policy changes will benefit not only her but
also future generations of women in the workforce.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah, I feel like I'm assigning a lot of homework
to all these young women, but I do think My
answer again is, you know, do your research. Do you
know what your values are? You know what you're supporting,
and if it's, for example, diversity, equity and inclusion policies
that ensure that women, women of color, disabled women have
(21:28):
a fair shot in the workplace, you know, figure out
which politicians are supporting that, which policy makers are supporting that.
So you can align your values with the values of
the people that say you're voting for or supporting in
some other way. Right, make those informed choices to make
(21:50):
sure that the people you're working with and you know, supporting,
are aligned with where you wanted to go. And that's
true for example, if you in a state where maybe
there's ballad initiatives, sometimes it's a little confusing. There's a
lot of language on those, but you know, take your time,
do your research, make sure you're registered to vote, and
(22:12):
then dig in so you know that your voice is
being heard, not just for your own future, but for
all of the policies that you want to see to
support everyone. Right, So that's kind of I guess maybe
the last piece of homework I would give people is
engage in your local community and up to the national
(22:32):
level and really learn about the things that you hold
dear and that you think are important and who also
supports those.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
And I will just add on today, just follow organizations
like National Partnership for Women and Families that are doing
the work and they suggest actionable steps that you can take.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
That's a great point, and I should have said that.
You know, if you sign up for an org like ours,
you're on our list serve. We'll let you know. We
have our finger on the pulls. You know. We have
folks who are meeting with legislators. We know, you know,
like if there's going to be a vote in Congress,
we can help demystify that for you and be able
to say, hey, this is happening right now, this would
(23:18):
support fair pay or this would support paid leave and
here's what you can do. So yeah, definitely sign up
for those so that piece of information and we and
our partners will be sure to tell you what's going on.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Well, thank you so much, Kate. That is some excellent
advice and it's great that there are some actionable steps
that we can take that will really impact generational change.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Well, thank you so much, Juliane. And also you guys
should keep listening to Julin. I mean, she's going to
keep bringing you all this great information and all these
different perspectives, so make sure you're doing that as well.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
That's it for this episode of Conversations for Equal Pay.
To tune into more episodes, log onto our website at
Conversations forequalpay dot org. You're listening to Conversations for Equal
Pay
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