Hereditary and Paimon the Demon King | Ep 117 - Cryptic Chronicles

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to Cryptic Chronicles, a show all about everything mysterious, unexplained,
and weird in the world. Today. On the show, I
am joined by Chills, an esotericist and freethinker slash philosopher.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
As well as surprise guests Blake Lake Lake. Later in
the episode, Chills, thanks.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
For joining me.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Hello Tim, how are you?

Speaker 1 (00:39):
I am fantastic So today on the show, We're going
to be going over Hereditary and King Paimon from Hereditary.
Hereditary is a twenty eighteen psychological horror film written and
directed by Ery Astor in his feature debut. The story
follows the Graham family as they unravel dark, disturbing secrets
following the death the matriarch Ellen. As the family members

(01:02):
cope with the grief, they encounter increasingly sinister and supernatural occurrences,
ultimately revealing a connection to a demonic entity named King Paymont.
The film is known for its unsettling atmosphere, slow building tension,
and exploration of themes like generational trauma, mental illness, and occultism.

(01:23):
It received widespread critical acclaim for its direction, screenplay, and
particularly for Tony Collette's intense performance as the grieving mother
Anni Graham. Hereditary is widely regarded as one of the
most impactful modern horror films, and I have to say
I agree, noted for its psychological depth and disturbing imagery.

(01:43):
So let's hop into it, shall we. I'm your host,
Tim Hacker, joined by Chills, and you're listening to Crypto Chronicles.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
This is this is the way, this is.

Speaker 5 (02:05):
The way you see these these entities they would conquer with.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
This movie is pretty interesting for anybody who is like
in a miniature of war gaming or anything like that,
like you've ever done Warhammer, because I mean it's a
kind of a goofy analogy, but it's interesting because you
kind of see the family as if you're the hobbyist
paying miniatures, and the mother in the movie is basically
a hobbyist looking in, and then the demon is looking

(03:00):
in as a hobbyist to her. So it's weird. How
like there's this like miniature set throughout the movie that's
the demon's looking in and it's like they're just little
toys for him.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah. Same here, like the opening shot where they're coming
into the dollhouse that then becomes the interior scene of
their bedroom, and there was one there was one angle
that they took the house from outside from above, like
a sort of pan wide shot landscape of the house

(03:33):
and the surrounding trees that I would swear like a set,
like a miniature set, like with miniature trees and house.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, like a like a wark gamer. How we put
together scenery?

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Yeah right right, Having built many a war hammer table myself,
that's what it looked like. So I'm actually glad you
recommended this movie and this topic because I had never
seen Hereditary, but i'd heard it was good and it
was definitely worth watching. I agree, it's it's an important movie,

(04:07):
one of the great horror movies at least in a
a generation.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Or sodd it's so good.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah. Yeah, So I'm very grateful both for being on
the show and for just I mean had a chance
to see this.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah we should do on the show, like you should
come on consistently.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
Okay, Yeah, that'd be great. So you brought up King Pimon,
the one of the demonic nobility from the Goiesha from
historical and popular demonology, And I got to be honest,
when I went into the movie, I was expecting Pymon

(04:46):
to be like the main character, like you know, David
Bowie from the Labyrinth. It's what I was expecting from
how everyone described it.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Well, he's always there, he's just in the shadow, right.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
I just I thought he was going to be like out,
you know, like just like a character, like just a guy.
So that was that was not my expectation, but it was.
It was a very good movie.

Speaker 6 (05:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, it's very subtle.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, it's very subtle, surprisingly subtle for a horror movie,
you know. Especially Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
That Charlie, the little girl in it, she's actually always
possessed by Paymon throughout the movie, well until she loses
her head.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
Interesting. Yeah, I've only seen it the one time, so
I don't you know, I probably don't have as comprehensive
knowledge of the timeline.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
I've only seen him four times, so I'm not like
a super duper expert on it. But yet you definitely
get more watching it a second time than you do
the first time.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
I can. I can believe that, especially with some of
his very clever use of lighting and you know, shadows
and kind of the darker space of a shot where
he'll kind of hide things and tuck things away.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Oh yeah, that's throughout the entire movie.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, I'm sure there's stuff I missed. I called a
few things.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
And what's interesting is that, unlike a lot of Hollywood stuff,
this actually connects to some very real world occult topics.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
Yes, That's what really surprised me was how on point
a lot of the ideas that were in the movie
were to things that I've studied about the real world
or that have happened in the real world.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Well, you like esoteric topics, so you're know, a stranger
to the oars Gaasha, true?

Speaker 3 (06:31):
Correct, Yeah, I read the ours Gowisha years ago. I
would say that I've never practiced any anything from it.
I think that's a little risky and unnecessary. Personally, I
wouldn't recommend it either.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
But you know about it, like you're familiar with all
of it and how everything works.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah, I mean you could say I'm familiar with the
theory of it certainly.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
So normally Hollywood does all kinds of stupid stuff and
makes like just does whatever they want with the material.
How would you say that this movie is like accurate
when depicting Paymon?

Speaker 3 (07:05):
So I think there's a couple of ways that they
were accurate while avoiding kind of the overblown you know,
monster movie tropes. So one is this just like we've
already said, it's very subtle. You know, Paimont's influence is

(07:25):
is just that it's influence. You know, he's not a
He doesn't appear in a puff of smoke, you know,
with his talent's clicking, you know, cackling. Hen you can
discern his presence in the movie. He is a character
or an actor in the movie, but it's behind the scenes.

(07:49):
It's through the other characters. You know, it's through their
devotion to him and their belief in him, and presumably
you know, he's what drives the super natural elements of
the story. But you know, in a in a very
in a sense, a very grounded way, like if a
person were, if a person were to attempt to gain

(08:13):
power by contacting Pimon here in the real world, and
we're successful, it would probably take, you know, a form
that is relatively subtle, similar to this movie coincidences that
result in you know, a desired outcome, like kind of
the Whole Plan where the Sun takes Charlie to the

(08:36):
party and then there's a series of tragic events that
lead to her death. You know, that's that's kind of
what is described by people that use real magic in
the real world or real ocultis describe. That's that's more
what it's like than you know, Harry Potter someone just

(08:56):
you know, sparks, flying magic carpets, whatever.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, it's much more subtle and unseen, like more it's
more like spiritual and almost uh metaphysical. Yeah, obviously metaphysical,
but also like quantum physics. I think is like more
of how it makes sense to me when I try
to make sense of it.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
Sure, sure, yeah, like things like like timing, you know,
the synchronicities, the timing of events, the way that causation
kind of seems to be affected.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Well it says like everything's connected, and you look at
the god particle that's certain discovered. Well there you go.
It's like real world occult lore in science right right, Yeah, yeah,
very much so, which is interesting.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
I think that is likely related. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
So one thing that I noticed from my own knowledge
on the topic is that Aymon doesn't really give a
shit about heads in like any of the real worlds
like occult lore, Like he doesn't care. Like in the
movie Hereditary, there's this obsession with decapitating people and stuff
like that. It happens repeatedly throughout the film.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Right right, that's one of the themes. The grandmother gets
dug up, the bodies decapitated.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yeah, Charlie's off the bird's head. She loses her head,
you know, the mom. Oh, I shouldn't ruined it. Off
it the spoilers here, watch out.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
I think we're gonna spoil it.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, the mom like saws her head off, her own
head off with a guitar string or something, right, a
piano chord.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yeah, doesn't tell you what, but yeah, some sort of. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
So, as far as I know, this is like one
of the main Hollywood inventions in the movie. The other
one that I can pick off right off the bat
is very subtle because if you look at the sigil
of payment, it's got like it's a swirly sigil thing,
you know. In the movie it's three, whereas in the
real worlds Grimoire it's four.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
I noticed that. Yeah, I saw that as well. One
thing that is I guess accurate is so there's this
pigeon head kind of element of pimon that appears in
the movie, Like Charlie cuts off the head of a
pigeon and she's attaching that to the toy, her acnitection figure,

(11:10):
her toy, and I believe there's a depiction of pimon
as having a pigeon head, like a crowned pigeon head,
but I forget which source it is.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
I know what you're talking about. It it's like a blackbird, right, yes.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, So like Alan Moore in his comic series Promethea,
there's a chapter or a book where the character fights
the Goalicia like in a superhero battle, and I believe
in that one, pimon Is is also depicted as having
like a crown's pigeon head, So there seems to be
a source for that. I just I'm not sure what

(11:47):
the specific source is in that cause.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
I can't think of it either. But he does go
back pretty far. Let's look at the historical and a
cult origins of King Peymon. I spent some time like
really trying to get to where this dude came from originally,
and it's actually really really fascinating where he's like his

(12:12):
earliest lore starts out and it's not really what you
would think, Okay. From the book Ingenium, the author talks
about the four Kings, the four heads, four helpers, or
four elders. These are the four demon kings from basically
all of the medieval Renaissance grimoires.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Correction, there are many demon kings and these grimoway ires
they would more be the demons of the cardinal points
as a loose terminology analogous to myriad grimoay ires.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
There's some of the demons with greater powers than others,
and Peymon is one of them. They are Urius, King
of the East, a Maymon, King of the South, Peymon
King of the West, and Engen King of the North.
In Hebrew, their names are Samuel, Azazel, Azael, and Mahuel.

(13:10):
It's thought that these guys originate from something called the
four Winds from Mesopotamian cosmology which dripped down into Babylon.
That numa elis you know what I'm talking about, numa Elise, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
And like all other civilizations of the Middle East have
their own version of this. They are even found in
Egyptian cosmology. What were you going to say?

Speaker 3 (13:33):
I was just going to ask if if Pazuzu was
one of those or even like a variation.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Of one of those, Yes, he would be a subject
of one of the four kings. He is not a
king himself.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
Okay, interesting, okay.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
And there's even forms of the four winds found in Egypt,
I said that. And there's also forms of this found
in Greece in Rome, and they have like their unique spins.
If you're unfamiliar, and go on, I.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
Was gonna say. One of the earliest forms of a
cult magic, kind of Middle Aged magic, was what was
called astrol necromancy, which was kind of a magical practice
that involved dealing with spirits, but specifically what they referred

(14:22):
to as spirits of the air. And you see this
quite a bit like in the Bible sometimes demons or
satan are referred to as a spirit of the air,
And at least in that source, that was sort of
referencing the fact that they were not from heaven below heaven,
but like not human, not earthly at the same time,

(14:44):
so air as being kind of in a sort of
intermediate state between Earth.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
And heaven totally. If you're unfamiliar with the Babylonian mythology,
Marnook who was like the big deal god of Babylon.
He defeated the main any of the gods, their own mother,
by the way, and her name was Tiamat by utilizing
the four winds as some of the weapons in his arsenal.
The four winds were essential in the defeat of chaos

(15:11):
and combating chaos. From that point onward, the four winds
were utilized as the utmost powerful weapons and spiritual combat.
But it is important to note that Marduk doesn't like
he hasn't controlled these winds through coercion or force. He
doesn't conquer them, these living, powerful forces to do his
will now. Instead, Marduk is initiated into their knowledge in

(15:32):
handling by his father Aneu, who was the original creator
of the winds. The four winds have gone on to
be key concerning the cardinal points in Esoterica ever since.
I'm sure that sounds familiar to a lot of people.
Later they became more associated with the directions like altogether
just basic directions to ot south, east west than wind

(15:52):
But there is a polarity in everything, and their opposites
are Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel four greatest archangels. However,
the four Winds, they are far older than any Christian dogma,
so from some points of view, the archangels can just
be seen as like how one could interface with the
four winds through a Christian interface, and it's more like

(16:16):
the positive aspects of these primordial wins. What is interesting
is the four winds. They have remained largely cohesive over
four thousand years of human interaction with them, despite them
being different sometimes, you know, some cultures having their own
unique takes on them, they still remain consistent. Peimon is
the West Wind and is far more important than like

(16:40):
a mere demon from a medieval grimoire, you know what
I'm saying. He's actually one of the most potent cosmic
forces humans can interact with, and their function the other
four winds too, they go far beyond what it seems
at face value because their function is to uphold the
natural tides of time and creation, so their purpose is
not bound to Earth, but to the very cosmos as

(17:00):
a whole. The book says this is why the four
Kings have been so potent and controlling lesser spirits, and
why you so commonly see the four demon Kings being
called in order to protect the conjurer from demonic entities.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah, it's interesting you say that. In the in the
Goiesha and in the pseudo Monarchia Deemonium, which are the
kind of scene as the two most most the two
sources that have the most to say about about Paymon
both referenced him as being a king, like having the

(17:36):
title of king. But Pimon specifically kind of referenced as
the seconds in command or maybe put it another way
or how it's put sometimes is the most loyal to
Lucifer as in like his most loyal subject. So he's
shown as kind of having a high rank, I think,
which kind of goes to what you're saying about about

(17:59):
his stature.

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on with the show, Let's go over like a description

(20:45):
of Peymon, because we've been talking about him a lot,
but we haven't really talked about anything in detail. Really,
What is uh a way that he's depicted in the
Lesser Keith Solomon, Like, let's discuss his attributes, you know
that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
Sure, sure, yeah, I mean I've got it pulled up here.
The Lesser Key. It's it's a great it's a great
thing to just kind of check out if you're at
all interested. It's kind of like the real life lore,
like the real world loar, like the Dungeons and Dragons
Monster Manual for the real world. Like, there's just some

(21:19):
some very cool, you know, interesting descriptions here. But yeah,
the Lesser Key of Solomon, it describes him as a
great king, very obedient to Lucifer. That's kind of like
common trait that is given for his loyalty. You could say.
He appears as a man riding a camel, and this

(21:39):
is significant because not all of them are even human
like or human looking. Some of them are very strange looking,
but this one has a human form. He rides a camel,
he's got a crown on his head, or depending on
how you translates, maybe the camel also has a crown
on his head, and he tends to be preceded by
a crowd of musicians that play symbols and trumpets and

(22:03):
things that his going about. And then it kind of
lists out the things that he can teach you and
do for you. Those so he can teach arts and
sciences and secret things and teach secrets of the earth
and about the winds, and grant dignity which probably maybe

(22:25):
means titles or.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
Status, yep, or even self esteem.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Oh true. Yeah, that's actually a really good point. I
think it's worth mentioning that, like in The Lesser Key
and the Pseudomonarchia, a lot of the kind of things
that some of these these entities can grant are not
They're a lot more like a moral or morally neutral
than you might expect. Like I forget which one it is,

(22:53):
but one of the figures in the Goisha can teach
can teach you ethics, which is you make you a
mass of ethics and moral reasoning, which just always kind
of is amusing. But yeah, pie Man can teach finding
people to your will and sending you familiars, and uh,

(23:14):
that's that's all I mentions.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Here, basically what he does in the movie.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah. Oh, and there's I don't know if it's in
the the Goisha or in the pseudo Monarchia. But he
also can animate the dead in one of the sources. Yeah, yeah,
that was a know of.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Any difference that he's presented in the and the lesser
can Solomon.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
I don't know if there's any direct contradictions. I think
the pseudo Monarchia is lengthier. It has a lengthier description,
but I don't know if it's I don't know if
there's any contradictions between the two except maybe like the
specific number of legions that he rules or something I
don't you know, which that probably isn't relevant to the

(23:56):
average person that wants to contact Pimon.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
That there's a lot more detail of like how he
looks as visually, because he looks like a yeah, he
he's like feminine and masculine, right.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah, you're right. In the pseudo Monarchia it specifically mentions
that he has an effeminate countenance and wears a glorious crown,
not just a crown. So yeah, there's a little more
a little more detail in the in the Pseudomonarchia about
kind of how he looks.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
He's not one of the scary ones, so right, No, not.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
Yeah, he doesn't have like a like a horrifying appearance,
Like he's not a like what's like some of the
other ones. Sea Tree has a face of a leopard
with wings of a griffin, you know, and inflames anyone
that looks on him with lust, which you know, it's like,
you know, there's some of these you just genuinely would
be terrified to look at, or to see or to

(24:52):
deal with. Pimond Is. I wouldn't say he's got that.
He's not got the immediately immediately scary, you know, appear in.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
The fact, he's the opposite. He's kind of polite, right,
you could get that.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
You could get that impression. Yeah, yeah, there's a there's
a line where it talks about how if he's pleased
or if he's given the right gifts, something along those lines.
But when he hath delivered him the first obligation to
observe his desire, then he'll go on to grant you
the favor that you're seeking. So almost business like or

(25:29):
or reasonable, I guess you could say.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
And that's all his basic portrayal in occult circles that
it's like popular culture type occult circles, right, Like, that's
all we did.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
Now for the movie, I would say, so, yeah, yeah,
I mean the movie, the movie kind of strips some
of this down even so I would say that that's
that's sufficient to get where they're coming from in the movie.
Certainly cool.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
All right, Now that we've got a basic idea of
just who King Peymon is, let's look at Peymon's role
in the movie Hereditary.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
So one thing I found fascinating is that the movie
is I was surprised by some of the scenes in
the movie because they were so on point with some
of the stories that you might run into if you
have ever looked into satanic cults or Satanic bloodlines or

(26:35):
even RSA the controversy around that in the late nineties,
And I thought it was very fascinating how they kind
of weaved prime On into that Satanic ritual bloodline idea,
but with him as the figure, as the figure of worship,

(26:55):
as the I guess the character that's being reborn through
the bloodline, with the person that's being reborn through the
bloodline is Pimon himself. I thought that was a very
interesting take.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, the whole cult that he has around him, throughout
the film is pretty creepy.

Speaker 4 (27:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
Yeah, people that are willing to you know, stalk or
manipulate family out of dedication to Pimon in this cult.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, and the grammar is just selling them all down
the river.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Right right right. And it's just it was very interesting
to me because you hear about these satanic bloodlines in
the real world, you know, and I'm not necessarily saying
that I know they exist, but you read about them
or you hear about them, and there is this persistent
idea that some of them may believe in this sort

(27:50):
of familial reincarnation or bloodline reincarnation. I knew a brew Ha,
you know, like a Hispanic which years ago, and she
told me how in her tradition, the gift, the magical
gift or the aptitude passes down every other generation. So

(28:12):
she has it and her grandmother had it, but it
skipped her mother. And so you know, there is kind
of a precedent, or a cultural and historical precedent of
this sort of every other bloodline inheriting some sort of
a cult a cult power, or in this case, manifesting

(28:35):
the member of the family through the bloodline every other generation.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, it's interesting how the grandma is just so willing
to sell her own kids and grandchildren down the river
to become like sacrifices to Paymon or a vessel for Paymon.
But in the movie, Paymon is kind of pissed off
because he's a male demon and he wanted a male body,
so when he got put in Charlie's body, he did

(28:59):
not really like that. So like for the rest of
for the rest of the basically her life before she dies,
because she dies at the beginning of the movie, she's
trying to get to Peter so that she can put
the demon inside Peter and make things right. And somehow
through all this like magical, creepy secreticity, the opportunity finally
presents itself. You know, he goes to he takes Charlie

(29:21):
to the party at Charlie eats the chocolate that she's
allergic to, and then when he's driving her to the
hospital or whatever, boom there goes her head, right, and.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
You can even see that it was going on. The
grandmother was attempting to initiate this years prior before she died.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, that drove her daughter saying basically right.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah. The mother basically had to separate
her distance Peter from the grandmother so that she wouldn't
you know, prepare it.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Screwed up her plans for so long until she finally
let her mother back in her life. Bad decision because
just because the grandma's dead doesn't mean that her cult
isn't going to come for Peter, right, right, And that's.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
You could see that where the mom almost lights the
kids on fire, you know, trying to prevent the whole
plan from going through.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Well, because she subconsciously knows what's going on, right exactly,
And that's that's what I got from all that when
she's doing that kind of stuff, because she subconsciously is
trying to protect them, but she doesn't know it consciously, right.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
And in fact, you know, looking at the course of
the events of the movie, one could make an argument
that everyone might have been better off had the mother
burned them all.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, they wouldn't be in hell turned right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Yeah. So the storyline is very interesting in how they
tackle the whole cult aspect of it, and there was
a few other kind of smaller details that stood out
to me in that respect as well. The movie takes
a kind of remarkable shift in the last what would

(31:12):
you say, ten minutes or so?

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Oh yeah, it's all down til.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Right right, and the movie kind of shifts from being
like a traditional horror movie into this sort of artsy
enactments of a of a ritual like on the screen kind.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Of well, in the movie itself, this is like it
is a ritual, all this crazy stuff that's going down, right.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, there's a real argument to be made that the
movie itself might be a sort of working or magic
practice that's creepy, possibly to gain Pimon's favor.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah, but what did they what did they expect to
get from Paymon in the movie? Like is it really
worth sacrificing your family and like all this crazy stuff
the cult does and whatnot? I mean, what do they
really want to achieve?

Speaker 3 (32:03):
So this this kind of touches on what I mentioned before,
which is kind of the research that that there may
actually be families that practice something like this in the
real world. What Yeah, yeah, this is a little obscure,
like an obscure topic, but you can almost see it

(32:27):
as the I guess you could say it goes back
to like there was a move, there's a not a sorry,
there's a book written in the seventies. I think about
a woman that went through therapy, regressive therapy and remembered
this sort of Satanic abuse as a child that she

(32:48):
went through.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Oh, you're talking about the Satanic panic.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah, the Satanic panic. Right, So much of that has
been debunked or at least uh debunked to a sufficient
degree that most people are comfortable. But at the same time,
there's some things that that we can't devump. But the
Franklin there was a there was a ring of abductions,

(33:13):
the Franklin abductions, I think they were called, that the
FBI investigated and has you know, police files and FBI
files regarding like it actually happened. And this was a
case where children were abducted and taken to a place
by Satanists where they were uh that's the word I held, kidnapped,

(33:35):
nailed Maybe I'm getting the name wrong, but abducted later Yeah, yeah,
there was an FBI a whole case on it, but
I wasn't That's just I'm just saying there actually were
legitimate cases of like Satanic groups that kidnapped children.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, it's not safe to talk about, but we could
also go into like the monarch program that's like mk
Ultra affiliated. Sure, that's yeah, that's kind of the same thing.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
Well, they're similar, right, So I mean I would say
that there probably aren't. They're probably not every instance that
was reported was was necessarily true, but there were certainly
cases that were. This one is called the Finders. This
is the group I was looking for. I got the
name wrong earlier, I think, But basically a group that

(34:25):
kidnapped children and were going to raise them in a
satanic environment. And you know, you can look this up.
It's on it's on Wikipedia. You know, it's not it's
not obscure anymore. Well, yeah, yeah, the Finders. So my
point being is that they're very well, maybe groups like this,

(34:48):
families like this that see themselves as inheritors of some
occult tradition going back generations. And that's in a sense,
it's like a sort of family religion or family belief
that's all tied up with you know, tradition and expectations
and loyalty to the family. In a sense, it's sort

(35:11):
of like the family version of a secret society.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, the the Alter monarch Project version of all that.
It's the same thing. It's basically just the elite doing
it to themselves and to doing it to anybody who's
going to be in places of power.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
Yes, exactly, and that's kind of what right. I'm glad
you mention that. That's very on point. Right. It's just
instead of going out into a group and enjoining it,
like the Masons or the whoever, you know, the Order
of Nine Angles or whatever, instead it's the family. You know,
it's the you're inducted at birth, or at least you're

(35:48):
inducted as a child.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah. And in the case of that satanic stuff we're
talking about, like the monarch program and all that, they're
literally like psychologically shattered.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yes, yes, yeah, you're really touching on some of the
stuff that I remember from researching the years ago. Yeah,
so like kind of how the CIA programs were intended
to fracture a person, so to speak. What I've heard
about this about these bloodline cults or family cults, what

(36:21):
I've heard about them from the research I did, is
that in a lot of cases, there's a practice involving
the day night cycle, where during the day they go
out into the world they are ordinary, law abiding citizens,
members of productive members of society, but at night instead
they kind of switch or turn and they become satanic.

(36:47):
They become evil and selfish and prioritizing self interest and
according to accounts, abusive and even possibly murderous. And I
think the movie might even touch on some of that
because if you look at the mother, the character of
the mother, consistently she is acting differently when she's sleepwalking.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, it's like the monarch stuff, they turn into alters,
like they have these alternate personalities and psychees and sometimes
even just like completely made up personalities injected into their mind,
like a demon would be a perfect example to inhabit
a person. Yeah, and it's just like in the movie,
she's like her mental illness is depicted throughout the movie,
but there's more to it, and it happens to it

(37:35):
happens to do directly with the cult and her grandmother.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
Right, Yeah, Yeah, I think you're I think we're both
kind of picking up on the same idea.

Speaker 7 (37:43):
Now.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, Like that's kind of what it felt like to
me was it was a sort of very sly but
a very real depiction of this kind of like you're saying,
this alter, alternate personality, this did sort of intentional d
id lifestyle.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, and the themes that happened with Charlie were you know,
Paymon's put into this child. There you go, it's the
same thing as like the Monarch program or the culture
talking about.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah, and in a lot of cases the techniques described
or involved, you know, trauma, death, death of a loved one.
And so if Peter was the intended heir to this legacy, uh,
you know, traumatizing him through the death of his little
sister and father, and especially his sister killed by his

(38:36):
own hand essentially, and.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
His mom's sawing off her head right in front of him,
like that is all psychologically shattering, making room for the
new altar Paymon right right.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
You've you've broken them, you know, you've stripped him down,
made him ready to accept the new, the new PERSONA.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Dang, that's crazy that there's like real world dark lore
associated like or not associated, but analogous to this stuff
that happens in Hereditary and it all surrounds like these
satanic cults.

Speaker 4 (39:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah, and that's why I was saying before we started
recording that that was what scared me more than Pimon
about the movie was was this like bloodline cult element
in it, which I think right right, But I wouldn't
be surprised if if they they weren't using you know,
like go we shouldn't I should say demons or you

(39:29):
know as Hebrew or Persian demons as a as their
source of power, so to speak. I wouldn't be surprised
at all by that.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
Well, that's what they want from Peymon is wealth and
familiars and stuff.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Right, yeah, yeah, from a wealth and success.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
You know what you get from becoming part of the
monarch program. You get to be able to become one
of the elite and get places of power and influence.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
Right right. You could basically say that the the monarch
program is kind of like the secular version of a
sort of ritual bloodline.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Depending on the like version we're talking about, it's not
very secular, but yeah, I get, I get what you're saying.
Like they believe in dark ass entities and a lot
of the Lord.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
You're you're right, yeah, that might be, that might be
a step too far, but.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Sometimes sometimes there are reptilians that are behind.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
It all right, right right, you got to read that
book asag sometimes, man, it gets into all that. It's
a lot of fun.

Speaker 8 (40:30):
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Speaker 8 (45:03):
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Speaker 5 (45:12):
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Speaker 4 (45:15):
It was big?

Speaker 1 (45:16):
What did nothing I've ever seen?

Speaker 8 (45:18):
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Speaker 5 (45:23):
The summer of nineteen seventy three, the town of Gehenna,
Wisconsin is racked with natural disasters. One family is chosen
by the Matha met to stay safe. But why then,
why aren't they allowed to die? The Mathmen of Gahennah,
Wisconsin now available on ebook and paperback. Find it on
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Speaker 3 (45:50):
I do want to say that as I kind of
see it as two movies, right, You kind of have
a cult hidden cult time on side, and then you
also have a very sort of traditional hard movie side, right, Yeah,
like like you could watch the movie and enjoy it
and know nothing about pimon or.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
I think it's kind of not traditional though, because there's
never like a main antagonist. The only antagonists are the
dead Grandma and the cults, who the family doesn't even
know that they're cultists when they're interacting with them. And
you know, like I told you to look for people
in the movie, you could see cultist members throughout all
the shots, even at their house. Yeah, at their house,

(46:28):
or in the dark butt naked in the corners and
doorways and stuff.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
No, No, really, no, I saw that. That's why I'm
laughing because it made me laugh when I was on it,
and you.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Know, like there's those shots all throughout the whole movie,
and like, when I first saw the movie, I was like, Okay,
I wonder if this is going to be one of
those movies where they pretend like there might be something
supernatural going on, but it's really just mental illness, and
you know, it's real grounded in our gritty, real world.
But early on in the movie, when the mom's turning around,
it actually shows like the ghost of her mother, the

(46:57):
grandma in the dark, and she goes to turn on
the light and it disappears.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Their visage is also hidden in the shot. You have
to squint and look for the apparition. It's not obvious.

Speaker 5 (47:10):
And obfiscated in darkness.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
Making it far more unsettling.

Speaker 5 (47:15):
Most viewers probably don't even notice.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
And when I saw that, I was like, oh, okay,
it's gonna be one of them movies.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
I really like. In the beginning in the funeral, there's
like a really brief shot of one of the security
guards who starts grinning very inappropriately.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Oh yeah, that creepy dude, the block guy. He's playing
fault members because he shows up in the house.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
You don't know who he is at that point.

Speaker 5 (47:44):
In the movie.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
But yeah, well you.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
Could see the family looking around being like, who are
all these weirdos because they obviously don't recognize hell of
people at the funeral.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
Right right, And Demo even like calls him on it,
She's like, I don't uh, it's a little suspicious to
me that there's so many people here. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Yeah, so this, this cult is basically the the monster
or the antagonist of the movie. Less so that Paymon,
who only shows up through very like soteric supernatural ways,
right right.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
Yeah, the cult is very much involved and gets their
hands dirty.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yeah, like shes tricks the mom to do a seance.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
Right right, that's the big that's the big one. But
I also think it's so one thing that really stood
out to me is beyond all the all cult elements,
it's also just a really fascinating take on horror because
you could also see the movie kind of like you're saying,
when you can see you say, the mental health or
mental illness side of it. You could almost see the
movie as a catalog of motherhood fears and let me know,

(48:50):
let me know if this makes sense to you. But
you've got, you know, the fear that your mother is
going to your kids are going to love your mother
more than you, The fear that your kids are going
to that your mother is going to have too much
influence over your kids, the fear that you're going to
become your mother, the fear that, you know, the worst

(49:14):
fear that could possibly a parent could have, the fear
that one of your children is going to die, or
compound it, the fear that one of your children is
going to kill another one of your children. And you
could even see like the seance where Charlie, you know,
is throwing things around, breaking things. You know, that's almost
the fear that a mother has that her her child,

(49:36):
her little friends that you know, has been on her side.
You know, then growing up, going through puberty, growing up,
becoming rebellious, and becoming self empowered. You know, you could
see a poltergeist as kind of being an embodiment of
those fears. The fear is that your child is growing
up and growing away from you so totally. And I

(49:57):
guess that's what I meant by traditional like in the
sense that horror movies are usually kind of like presenting
common fears in a supernatural way.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
It's also the fear of not having control. Like remember
at the beginning of the episode I talked about looks
like a like a miniature, and the mom makes miniatures
for a living, which is why there's like the symbolism
in there. And they never had the entire time, they
don't have any control over their life. It's always just
payment and the cult looking at them like they're little

(50:30):
miniatures in this set that they could just move around
at their own will. That's far more terrifying than just
a demon.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
Right, Yeah, that's right exactly. Like at the end of
the day, like these things are the really scary things,
you know, losing a child, having a useless husband that
can't help you when you need it.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Yeah, what do you think of that guy, the dad
in the movie?

Speaker 3 (50:55):
Yeah, or worse, betrays you when you really need it.
You know, because the father was at the seance, you know,
he saw the the supernatural stuff that happened. But then
at the end of the movie, you know, he goes
up into the attic and sees the body and turns
on the mother, you know, calls her crazy. It's like, dude,
you saw the same stuff we did.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, he's not helping. No, that guy's just a whe
that was right.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
I mean, I love Gabriel Byrne as an actor, but
I wasn't sad at all to see him burst into
flames at the end at the end of the movie.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Yeah, it sucks how he goes, but damn.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
So one thing I did want to get your thoughts on, Tim, Like,
there's a scene where the mom is making a diorama
or a set of the accident. Do you remember that?

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah, it's really dark.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah that was wild.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Why would you do that if your kid just died
like that? It's so macabre?

Speaker 6 (51:50):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (51:51):
Yeah it was. It was wrenching. And the dad feels
that way, you know. He came in and was angry,
and the mother said something like, you know, like what
what's wrong? It's just an objective you know, look objective, unemotional,
look at what happened.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Yet no, because like she doesn't think about his feelings either.
You think that he wants to see that. That's no,
that's twisted. Why is she making like she's making like
an altar to her child's death, to traumatized the whole family,
specifically her son most right?

Speaker 3 (52:25):
Right, it was very disturbing, and that's what kind of
made me wonder if there were more times that she
were sleepwalking than just the ones that were expected.

Speaker 4 (52:35):
There were.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
Remember that he talks about it. He's like, in the past,
you've tried to do this and that to me. You've
said this and that to me, and she doesn't remember.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
Okay, yeah, I must have. I must done caught that part.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Yeah, that guy said it like, you got to watch
this movie multiple times to really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
Yeah, I'll have to. I have to go back through
it at some point.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
It's me hack rabit. I thought I would stop it
and hear you guys talking about hereditary what up? It
couldn't help but chime in. You know, there's a lot
of horror movies that have that motif of the miniature.
You're thinking of alridy Aster's work to come to mind,
doctors sleep and the shining of the minute.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
It's ages since I've seen the shining. What's the connection there?

Speaker 4 (53:23):
Well, the shining at least in the film, the maze
that's made of the hedges, there's a miniature of it,
and they use this shot to great effect where it's
Jack looking down on the maze and then slowly morphs
and he sees his family lost in the Maze, and
they do the same thing in Doctor Sleep. When he
arrives in the new town, he actually works at a

(53:45):
train station for kids and it's like a little miniature town. Okay,
another place this motif is in, like Beetlejuice. They have
a miniature of everything and they can interact with this
miniature and it affects the real world and vice versa.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Yeah, we were just talking about how one of the
scariest themes of Hereditary is how just like this lack
of control and like everything's just a miniature to be manipulated.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
In fact, in fact, it almost kind of inverts that
trope because the mother gets angry and destroys her work
project that she spent weeks building and it doesn't help,
Like it's it's it's futile, you know, like or maybe
that's her own life and she's destroying it, but it
definitely doesn't help her overall.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Do you think that this entity was depicted, Like, how
do you think this is? This impacts the public perception
of the occult.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
I remember Louve saw the film, he got on his
Instagram and whatever. Afterwards he was like, it's so irresponsible,
you know, using Paimond's actual petic sigil, and he was
saying that anyone who watches the film is basically a
threat of contamination to some extent, which I thought it

(54:59):
sounded a bit ex stream, but I'm happy that they
portrayed Pimon is something frightening and actually dangerous, because you know,
you get a lot of young witches wizards, and the
first thing they want to do is, you know, conjure
the most badass demon they can and just see what happens.
And I think Jason was afraid of them doing that
with this one. Now, in my opinion, I think Pimon

(55:22):
was chosen maybe by Ari Astor, but I think I've
seen him in film before. And I'm going to make
the contention that Pimon is the demon that narrates the
Aladdin film. What oh yeah, how does the film start?
You have this guy on a camel. He rolls up

(55:43):
and he's trying to sell you all his wares. But
he's like, oh well, let me tell you this story
about the magic lamb. And it's obviously voiced by Robin Williams,
so that it's the first guy you see in the beginning.
So let me tell you a story, you know, and
he's a guy on a camble. Well that's Robin Williams voice. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(56:05):
this is the genie who is shape shifting into a
man on a camel And then later, okay, I think
that's the first time. Later he calls upon the genie
and what does the genie do? The genie can turn
familiars into like better familiars. He can give you good
familiars and then prime on the way he's described in

(56:27):
the traditional texts. He includes knowledge of the arts and
of secret things, so hidden pressures regarding the earth right,
he can help find them. But he also bestows dignities, lordships.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
Yeah, status maybe, or titles granting familiars.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
He also gives command over fish in some I don't
know how that plays in himself, but the whole he
also tends to appear with like a bunch of people
playing symbols, right, like he has like a marching cap,
and he's presented that laying Aladdin as well. So it
makes me wonder, Like I've heard it said that in
the music industry, you know, any album you cut, they

(57:07):
bind a demon too it, and so anytime you listen
to it or talk about it, you're also evoking a demon,
and it makes me wonder if there's any truth to that,
if pimon just happens to be a really good go
ahead experience to make your movie some money, you know
what I mean, or like it gets there coming in.
It's just something I've considered. I wonder if Pimont pops
up in any other films.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
I think you're I think you're onto a thought that
occurred to me as well, because if you think about it,
what would be the next best thing to actually performing
the goalletic ritual yourself, It would be to make a
movie about it, to put it into a film that
millions of people are going to go see and talk about,

(57:49):
and put it out there to the world, to the
universe in that way. So I don't I don't think
that's complete nonsense. I think there might be something to that.

Speaker 4 (57:58):
Well, movies have a ritual aspect to them. They require
lots of sacrifice and money and energy. And then the
physical image physical is the right word. I guess it
is physical. It's sort forever on film. And then in
the case of Hereditary, you actually have the sigital of
pime On that's like on the camera, So it's like

(58:20):
you're actually using the bona Fide sigil, which is what
Jason was so mad about. But man, if anything, I
think just this makes the cultis just look stooky.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
Yeah. We were talking earlier before you came on about
how there's a sort of thematic possible thematic link to
SRA and to that whole uh cultural outrage period.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
So I mean the Satanic panic stuff, right right.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
I mean, as far as I know, this movie didn't
you know, spark a new Satanic panic. But I mean
this is the kind of thing that reminds people of
that or makes them think of that sort of silence.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah, definitely, although.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
In this case maybe for good reason. You know, we
don't want people really competing pie on, so that might
be fine.

Speaker 4 (59:05):
Well, you're right, does this compare well with the eighties
Batanic panic narrative where it's like everyone you know, the
lady who works the Hallmark store. Yeah, I mean, and
like they're all in on it. Oh yeah, it's all secret,
and they just drag you into a back room and
they do this crazy ritual and then they just pretend
like nothing ever happened. So it is drawing upon some
really old Yeah, people used to believe that stuff when

(59:27):
I was a kid in the nineties.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
You know, they believe it.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
They still believe it. Yeah, and this is kind of
in the same lineage as like Rosemary's Baby or the
Omen which we're both about kind of.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
And we've talked about empa Altra stuff, the Monarch program.
We already talked about that earlier in the episode before
you got here. But yeah, it's the same ballpark, and
there's these things of just like psychological damage, like trauma,
and it opens you up to new experiences to come
in like or sometimes to be released, because Charlie had
to have herself opened up or for Paymon to get out,

(01:00:00):
and then Peter had to be traumatized beyond comprehension before
Peymon could get in or be forced in.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Right, had had to.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
Make room for the spooky About that in particular is
they had arranged for it before the children were even born,
you know, and they're like they got the one they
didn't want first, They're like, oh, it's good enough, and
then they got the upgrade, right, So it's like they
have this in mind before the children were made, which
is pretty scary.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Oh yeah, I think the implication was definitely that this
was not the first generation where the changeover happens. I
think this the idea is it went back, you know,
hundreds of years probably or at least many generations.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Yeah, this cult has been doing this for a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
That's the implication.

Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
Yeah, you know, to be fair, that is how the
Order of Nine Angels' origin mythology wants us to think
of itself as like, oh, yoky old wood Lady, and
it was all like secret and they did it in
a bay and then you know, and then it broke
out into the world.

Speaker 6 (01:01:04):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:01:05):
But that's how it all been going on for hundreds
of years. And you know, they say this about the
elites and the illuminati. They're like, oh, it's all bloodlines
and in the family and stuff and one theory and
what they say all the conspiracy theorists is like it's generational,
Like it's like every firstborn they like traumatize the hell
out of them, you know what I mean. And the

(01:01:27):
idea is like trauma based mind control. But also you're
like messing up your karma so that when you die,
you're charmatically bound to that one family because there's like
nowhere else on the planet anywhere else that your karma
matches so like, you mess up your karma in such
a way that it becomes like a signature for you

(01:01:48):
to come back and reincarnate into the same families over
and over. And let's say they are doing something to
accumulate wealth and power, Well then you're born right back
into it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
And so I've heard this theory. That is another thing they.

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):
Use in doctor sleep because they're all like connected by
the loop. Sorry, I'm not trying to make this a
Doctor's sleep episode.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
I promised. No. I've heard the same theory that and
we were we briefly went into it earlier. But I've
heard the same theory, and I think that might be
part of the carrot, you know, of the of the
carrot and stick. Here is eternal life sort of eternal
you know, continuity of consciousness.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Maybe, but you've got to give something up.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Yeah, it's gonna suck, but you know you'll get to
live again through your branch out.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
In this case, it's your whole family tree that gets sucked.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Right right. Well, if they just listened, you know, to
to Grandma Y, they'd be fine.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Yeah, I don't think they would be fine. I think
all of them get sacrificed no matter what, Dude, I
think the only one who cared about anything was the grandma.
She cared about herself and her power and her colt's power.
That's it. Everything else she loft such a nice note
for her, Dude, you saw how traumatized her daughter was.

(01:03:08):
But speaking of family trees or trees in general, can you, hey,
hack rab it, can you give me a quick overview
of the tree of life and the set?

Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
Well, that's kind of the big tall order to ask
of me right now on the fly. What is the
tree of life?

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
Just basic overview, nothing in depth.

Speaker 4 (01:03:28):
Well, especially if you look towards this origin and believe
the Sephriyetsra. It's this idea that God to create the
universe first had to create letters and then words, and
in theory that the spirit of God and the universe

(01:03:48):
and the human soul can be compartmentalized or broken down
into tense spheres or sephro and the way there arrangees
a bit like a cup that overflows into another cup,
which overflows into another cup, and the cup at the
top is closest to God and it's pure consciousness. And

(01:04:10):
as the cups overflow downward, they collect more contamination and
they mix together until we have these discrete egos and
a physical body and a human personality. And it's all
locked within a doll within a doll within a doll.
But if we were to look at our soul as

(01:04:31):
made in the image of God, we would see it
as not just a roadmap of our soul, but of
God's soul and the world itself. So, I mean, that's
pretty heavy stuff. I don't know how else to break
it down quicker than that, you know it, You could
also look at it as like the different color palettes
that make up a soul that's creating God's image, and

(01:04:56):
you know, it's a big, finally cabinet inside of which
do you think that there's major spheres?

Speaker 3 (01:05:03):
That's the analogia vert is. It's a filing cabinet, like
a conceptual filing cabinet of spiritual concepts.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
So get this. Then Peymon is he originates as one
of the four Wins from Sumerian mythology, and Peymon, in
his demonic name, is associated with the reverse of the
tree of life. It's called the clipbot, and he is
associated with a specific reverse, the Gameliel. So what's the

(01:05:34):
tree of death? Hack Rabbit that this uh that Peymon's
associated with, and.

Speaker 4 (01:05:40):
About this for episodes upon episodes upon episodes. But some
people see the tree of life has a shadow, an
inverse tree, a tree of death that is like reflected
down below, and you like go into the underworld by
exploring that tree, whereas the normal Cablo tree you're exploring
the higher worlds. And that's a fairly accurate description. But

(01:06:03):
if you want my opinion, both of the trees are
not separate. They're the same tree. And the clippot the
word actually means shell. So if you think of the
tree of life like the fruit, the clippot is like
the congealed shell on the outside that holds in all
the goodness. But in so doing, because it's a container

(01:06:26):
for the goodness, it's a container of like anti goodness.
You could say it's the part of the holiness that
congeals into unholiness and becomes a vessel inside of which
the holiness can grow out of. So if you really
want to get technical, though, if you invoke the forces
of the CLIPPOTUH, just to use Jason Lew's teachings again

(01:06:49):
as an example, you know, instead of calling up like
an angel of water, You're like calling up a clogged toilt.
Like it's all like the negative bad representations of those
same ana gees. So like typically like gamali Yell is
the shadow of Yesod, right, and you know, yes, womb, Yeah,

(01:07:10):
Yessod is the womb. But also I didn't know this.

Speaker 6 (01:07:12):
I didn't know.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
Pimm was associated with Yessode. But Yessode is the miniature.
It's the miniature before it gets printed and becomes the physical.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
It's like the imaginary. It's like the thing in your
mind before you make it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:28):
Yes, So in that way, it's like a womb, but
it's also a miniature. So the theme of the womb
and motherhood in all its different phases does play a
role in this film. And and also she paints miniatures,
that's what she does. So even though she's not fulfilling
her role as the womb of Pimon, she's still fulfilling
her role as a womb, as a maker of Pimon's world.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
You know, damn.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
Yeah, that's fascinating. It's a fascinating point.

Speaker 4 (01:07:57):
And if I understand the shadows side, gamaliel manifests itself
and the human psyche is like I want something so
bad that I hate it, you know how people on
the far far right think about women.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Yes, obscenity is is sorry, obscenity is kind of the
way I've heard it described. Like if the A side
is kind of typically the imagination and the creative impulse. Uh,
the klipotic side of it is sort of the dark fantasy,

(01:08:32):
you know, the perversion, Like the perverted fantasy, like the
the what's the word, like, you know, the power trip
you know that the fantasy you have about your your
enemy where you're killing them or doing whatever you would
do to them, Like the dark side of creativity or imagination.

(01:08:53):
That's how I recall it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:54):
Stopp that's kind of spooky. Sorry sadistic use the word obscene, Yeah,
that's I actually think the obscene ones are the reverse.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):
Of Oh I don't yeah, maybe the wrong like properly.

Speaker 4 (01:09:08):
Yeah, I think the obscene ones belong to But no,
I see what you're saying. Well, like the dark side
of the womb, all right, yes, so the womb is
like it doesn't it doesn't quite fit kill it, you
know what I mean, Like it doesn't it's something's wrong
with it. Destroy it, which is very.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Much like a like abortion, like the inverse of birth.

Speaker 4 (01:09:32):
Yeah, so I know in the matrix, Agent Smith very
much represents that energy. And that's why his name is
Smith is because that's what the womb does, is puts
things together and builds thing builds things. But if it
detects an error or a problem, you know, the nail
that sticks up gets hammered down, which is very much
what Neo is. He's the anomaly. He doesn't match, doesn't fit.

(01:09:52):
So Smith's only purpose is to like hammer him out.
It's interesting we see the same thing and we're not
talking about Midsummer.

Speaker 3 (01:09:59):
We're tking about out whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
Man, we could throw anything, and.

Speaker 4 (01:10:03):
I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it anywhere yet.
Don't Masterpiece watch our as stuff. Okay, but no, this
is essentially what happens is a little girl in Hereditary.
It is like he doesn't quite you know what I mean,
he doesn't quite match. He's not exactly or delete it,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Got that right off.

Speaker 4 (01:10:23):
That's that's part of the horror of like what it
means to be a woman. You know, it's a big
theme in the film, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
And another yeah, yeah, motherhood. I think Motherhood Fears, You
could kind of sum up the whole movie is Motherhood Fears.
I think, in my opinion, I.

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
Give life and I take it.

Speaker 6 (01:11:00):
M m mm hmmm mmmmmmmmmm mmm mm hm m m
hmmmm mm hmmmm mmm mm hm m m m hm

(01:11:21):
m m hm mm hmmm mmm mmm mm hmmm.

Speaker 7 (01:11:29):
Mmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mm hmmmm mm hmmm.

Speaker 6 (01:11:44):
Mm hmmm mm hmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
What do you think of Peyman's association with Gamliel in
the sense that it's closely associated with the astral plane, like,
how is that relevant to paymon and how it can
interact with us or whatever?

Speaker 4 (01:12:09):
Well, typically, yes, so it's associated with the astral realm,
the dream world, and on the cabalistic tree of life.
You know, if Tifferreth is the sun, then all of
the light of Tifferath, your soul is reflected cathodically through
the moon, and that's the dimension of dreams in the
astral The problem is is just you know, any sort

(01:12:32):
of demons or spirit activity can be said to be
active on the astral so I presumably it would just
make Pimon more possessed of that sort of power. And
we know that Timon is very loyal to Lucifer. That's
one thing. So I would imagine all the demons have
a lot of power in the astral world. That's part

(01:12:53):
of their bag, you know, like they can really affect
things and make things happen, any of them, not just Pimon.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
I wasn't expecting this lunar connection with Paimon and like
the astral plane and stuff like that. But I mean
it does have a lot to do with the subconscious.
In the movie Hereditary, I feel like there's a consistent
theme of the subconscious with the mother, you know how
like she gets up in sleepwalks and tries to kill
her son in a bizarre way to protect him.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Yeah, I think it right, right, I think it has
a lot to do with it in that sense of
how he kind of talked about, you know, disassociative identity, disordered,
multiple personalities, fracturing alters. I think that's all very relevant,
very on point with the asod, which is the sphere
the ceph that concerns the subconscious.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Yeah, it is all about the subconscious. And you know
he said hag Grabit said that Paymon reveals hidden truths
and like helps you find treasure, but he also can
ensnare the secret and delusion?

Speaker 3 (01:13:52):
Interesting? Yeah, I mean that again kind of goes towards
that a side connection, especially the inverted side, the klipotic
side of Gameliel, where you know you've got a destructive consciousness, subconscious,
destructive subconscious or unconscious you know, driving you to self destruction.

Speaker 1 (01:14:13):
Yeah, Paymont has like a duality, kind of like how
lunar energies have a duality, Like, what's their duality? It's
enlightenment and illusion.

Speaker 3 (01:14:24):
Right right? Interesting? This is this is going deeper than
I I had thought when watching.

Speaker 4 (01:14:31):
I popped in a little late. Had you talked about
the names yet?

Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
What names?

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
Oh, like how Charlie has a boy's name.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
No, that we haven't talked about the names at all.

Speaker 4 (01:14:39):
Apparently it's a gender neutral name when you say it
Charlie because it could be Charles or Charlotte. But it
comes from a Germanic word carl which means free man.
So think about that. You were talking about trauma based
mind control. They birthed a child with the intention of
carrying a demon, so they need to make it an

(01:15:01):
open vessel or a free man is a free person.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Yeah, I don't think Charlie is actually there at all
in the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
Really, she's very blank.

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
No, I think that that's Paymon, and he just doesn't
work right in that body that makes sense, and he's
just really confused because it's like when you're going from
one dimension to the next. I don't think that he
can necessarily like understand or comprehend our world as clearly
as he can when he's in the astral or hell
or whatever. And the body that he was given is

(01:15:30):
just incredibly confusing for him, and he doesn't even know
maybe that he's actually Paymon or whatever, but that's not Charlie.

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):
So here's something that occurred to me. I'm glad you
said that because it made me think of this. One
thing that occurred to me is that the symbolism of
Pimon riding the camel may have been expressed in the
movie through the children or through the human victims, as
in Pimon's the Rider and the body, the human is

(01:16:02):
the camel.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
Oh like the family tree.

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
Yeah, yeah, because I think you see this because there's
this scene right at the end of the movie where
Peter I think that's the son's name, Peter's pushing himself
up out of the dirt right before he goes up
into the treehouse outside at the very end, he's pushing
himself up out of the dirt. He's got a hoodie
on with the hood back, so he has a hump

(01:16:27):
on his back. He's got the bandage on his nose
that's kind of flattening and broadening out his nose like
a like a camel. And he keeps hearing these these
clucks in his ear, remember these these like little clicking
tongue clicking.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
That's because one of Peymon's forms is a bird.

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
Too, driving a you know, like a directing amount.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
You know, his nose broken, that bandage. I thought that
that made him look more bird like, because yeah, a
bird is one of peymons forms, not just the dude
on the dromedary.

Speaker 3 (01:17:04):
That's too. I mean it could be that too. That's
just what it. That's just kind of where my association is. Yeah, yeah,
like what if the people are just seeing as kind
of being kind of like in the sense in voodoo
where the low ride the priests or priestess. That's the
even the term good point, And so that's just kind
of where my mind went. But yeah, it's it's open

(01:17:26):
to interpretation, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:17:27):
One thing that's different from the movie compared to like
the real world lore is like in the movie, Peymon
is pretty freaking evil, right, but in the real world lore,
Peyman is supposed to be like one of the most
respectful and polite and have like lots of manners type
of demon presumably.

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
And you know, again in the movie, we don't see
a whole lot of time on himself. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
Actually there's one scene that's interesting. Remember when he's at
school and like, uh, you hear the weird trumpet sounded
the background, and then there's all this like multi colored
like light that happens.

Speaker 3 (01:18:04):
Yeah, the weird blue like like a fish tank light that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:10):
Like a rave kind of a kind of a thing, yea,
but a subtle one. I think that's Paymon in our world.
Like that's as close as it gets actually showing him.

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
That makes sense. That's that's a very like David Lynchian
kind of uh kind of thing, like way to do it,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:18:27):
Yeah, And trumpets precede him, and it had like the
whole subtle trumpets going on in the background and everything.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, Yeah that was good.

Speaker 1 (01:18:34):
But Unlike like the real world war, Paymon isn't necessarily evil.
He's kind of neutral, like you were saying.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
Yeah, or at least he's reasonable. It's what I would
say the impression, like he's he's at least uh, willing
to honor a bargain or willing to honor a deal
that's made. I'm not advocating for anyone to.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
Oh yeah, I don't ever do any of that, obviously,
but I.

Speaker 3 (01:18:59):
Don't want to make too friendly.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
But what's interesting, though, it is in her his original incarnation,
when he was one of the four Wins, like when
we're talking about Egyptian mythology, Sumerian mythology, Babylonian mythology, he
was this force of nature. So like how they looked
at demons was not the same way that we look
at demons. I mean, you could even call up kazuzu

(01:19:21):
to help you, like if like you have a pregnant
wife or whatever, you could call it a kazuzu to
guard your wife, a protector. This like horrific evil demon.
So it's like they didn't see demons as how we
see them. They saw them more. How do I put
this in the words, what do you think complete my thoughts.

Speaker 3 (01:19:39):
Like like our, like our, there's more like you know,
neighbors or just entities with their own agendas, I think,
and I think as different cultures bring in the ideas
that these entities is when they kind of become demonized
and turned into demons in the same way as when
Christianity took in, you know, images of Pan and uh,

(01:20:05):
you know, Irish Corononus and these other deities, and these
deities became the demons of the new Christianity. You know,
another culture's gods became Christianity's demons and devils. And I
think this is a similar process, just an older one
where some of these, not not all of the I
think gouetic demons are are were this sort of synthesis.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Many of them are just old gods, dude, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):
Right right exactly, And I think that's where you see
this kind of moral neutrality in a lot of them,
where they might teach you something like ethics, which is
which is literally how to be a good person.

Speaker 1 (01:20:43):
Like what's asthmods? Isn't he like a star tea? Oh wait, no,
that's not right.

Speaker 3 (01:20:48):
Yeah, I don't I don't remember all the derivations of
old seventy two seventy two demons. But you know, some
of these are very like, I don't want to say harmless,
but you know they're not. They're not what you would
referred to as evil. They're just powerful beings that might
teach you something useful.

Speaker 1 (01:21:06):
Yeah, I think that's Paymon probably became evil first when
the Hebrews, like usurped the four winds and they transformed
one of them into Saml who I'm sure we're all
familiar with, and he was one of them, a Zaiel,
the demon king of the West. Because it was really
how demons are these spirits you know, in Greek they're
called damon's. They were only really started to be associated

(01:21:28):
with pure evil after Hebrew, not Hebrew, you know what
I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:21:32):
Sure, yeah, And that's what makes it difficult to try
and pin down like a true historic you know, like
basis on some of this stuff. But I would I
would say, let's say you take the guisha on face value,
even if they weren't evil to begin with, they're probably
going to be annoyed if you conjure them and then

(01:21:54):
command them to do things.

Speaker 1 (01:21:56):
Well, they do it of nature, like you can't be
friends with an earthquake, can you well, I don't know,
I guess not. You ever tried to make.

Speaker 4 (01:22:05):
Smaller than my last boss?

Speaker 3 (01:22:08):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:22:09):
The first thing he says to Aladdin is like, dude,
you're a whimp.

Speaker 12 (01:22:12):
The last guy like had me build a temple to
God and was like shouting God names at me and
like trick him because one of the things, you know,
demons and genies, you know, you tell them to do
things like I don't do that, you know what I mean,
It's like, yes, you do.

Speaker 4 (01:22:30):
Like reanimating the dead for several years is one of
the things pymando And that's one of the things he
says to Aladdin that he's not gonna It's not that
he can't, he's just won't do it. Doesn't like doing it,
that's what you bet, you know, But that's one of
his powers, that's what he does. But in theory, you know,
some very powerful, religious minded or spiritually potent individuals or

(01:22:54):
who conjure these things. So you know, if if if
you're a wimp and you can under one of these things,
they're going to take one look at you and just
like excuse me, you know you either that'd be very
clever or very powerful were each very correctly for a
good reason. Otherwise, like they're just like any other intelligence,
Like they don't want to work.

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
Well, have to go online and find any number of
horror stories where someone has tried this and then instantly
regretted it through a series of you know.

Speaker 1 (01:23:25):
That's what I was going to say was, like, do
you think that the magic circle of protection even works
if like the conjuror is weak, Like they don't even
got followed the rules.

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
Right, If you're not sure that you did it one
hundred percent correctly, do you your mindset probably isn't even
right to do it much less you know the circle itself.

Speaker 4 (01:23:45):
Well, do you make a magic circle but you don't
know why you made it or what it's supposed to do.
It's basically doing nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:23:52):
Right, That's right? Good, exactly?

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
Hello, Oh hey there, what's up? So we're talking about
hereditary and paymon and we just got to all this
weird stuff. You want to chime in.

Speaker 2 (01:24:14):
This this this, this part of the conversation was corrupted
by the Illuminati.

Speaker 5 (01:24:20):
Not much was lost, though, heck Astro continues the conversation regardless.

Speaker 13 (01:24:32):
You know, all the goetic spirits have like a Christian
foundation that they're built upon, even though they utilized ancient
gods and goddesses. So then it's like looking into what
the Christian associations with the camel also make a lot
of sense, and especially with with that era of Christianity,

(01:24:53):
like looking at what said that the the the camel
and the whole eye of the needle thing. So you've
got like the entry to the Kingdom of Heaven, and
it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye
of a needle than for a Richmond to enter the
Kingdom of heaven.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
How do you think payment's associated with that?

Speaker 13 (01:25:11):
Through the camel and through the Western the underworld, the
crossing of the Abyss.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
Can you explain the all the like Egyptian gods associated
with demons and stuff like that?

Speaker 13 (01:25:26):
Oh, God, where did you want me to start?

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
Like the what's the four winds in Egyptian cosmology and
all of the Egyptian cosmology that are gods that are demons.

Speaker 13 (01:25:45):
So you have the cardinal directions, which is Duamutef in
the east, in Seti in the south, Quebesinef in the west,
and Happy in the north. But then you also have
various goddesses that are associated as like the guardians of them,

(01:26:06):
and then you have a lot more that are associated
specifically with the East and the West, depending on what
their energetic attributes are. So like with Ha, the god
of the desert, he's associated with the western desert and
the protection of the western desert. So the western desert
is a very arid and lifeless place, so stuff doesn't

(01:26:29):
really grow there. It's also where the sun sets and
enters into the underworld. So you have an association with
camels with this god because his hieroglyph is represented as
these two mounds of mountains.

Speaker 1 (01:26:47):
Peyman would be the west wind. What does that mean
specifically in like Egyptian cosmology.

Speaker 13 (01:26:53):
I would relate him to Ha specifically just due to
the western desert and the humps of a camel being
very similar to the hieroglyphic representation.

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):
Of that god. Interesting, Yeah, what do you think of
the tree of life and like the reverse tree of life,
how Pemon is associated with Themaliel Gamaliel.

Speaker 13 (01:27:17):
Yeah, I mean it kind of makes me think of
the what is it the Hebrew word gamel, which is camel.
It makes me think of Yeah, that's but I don't
know if there's a direct association with that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:31):
I have to that's a weird syncreticisity.

Speaker 13 (01:27:34):
The name Gamaliel kind of rings very similarly. And then
you know what you guys were saying too about the
the womb and it being like a death version of
the loomb.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
It also because it's the mirror of your sod.

Speaker 13 (01:27:52):
Yeah, And if you think of how these deities were
viewed in ancient times, it weren't necessarily viewed more like deities,
but like energies of nature and so like the shell
of a womb could also be like the free life
or post life version of a womb, so like a

(01:28:13):
womb prior to being able to conceive, or a womb
that is now barren. So it's it's also it's i
think more nuanced the way that they viewed these energies.
They weren't inherently evil.

Speaker 1 (01:28:29):
Yeah, because the hereditary peymon seems like legit evil, but
when you go back and look at the four winds,
they're not seen as evil. Well they can be destructive.

Speaker 13 (01:28:38):
Yeah, they can be. It's an adversarial force, like you know,
you can use an adversarial force with a hammer to
smash someone's skullon, or you can use it to build
a house. It's all how it gets expressed, right, So
it's the same way that they viewed it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:57):
What do you think about Peymon and his association with
like a lunar stuff an astral and dreamwork.

Speaker 5 (01:29:04):
Hmmm.

Speaker 13 (01:29:05):
I don't know if I have much commentary on that,
aside from like, if he's going to be associated with
the duot, then this is like an uncreation subconscious area.

Speaker 1 (01:29:17):
Yeah, because it would be the reverse of manifested reality
since he's associated with the shadow tree of life, the
true of death.

Speaker 13 (01:29:24):
Yeah, the anti womb, Yeah, because he I mean, if
we're taking Egyptian mythology into account, that would be a
relationship with the duot.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
What's the duat, which is the It's.

Speaker 13 (01:29:37):
The underworld, so that would be the place where the
sun goes at night, the hidden, the unseen, the chaotic,
the reflection of the chaotic waters of the primordial abyss Ah.

Speaker 1 (01:29:53):
Well, thanks for coming in and commenting. I really appreciate that.

Speaker 13 (01:29:58):
I uh, I'm I'm happy to have just randomly commented.

Speaker 1 (01:30:03):
Yeah, hack rabbit, you're familiar with the anuma a lease, right,
the Babylonian a.

Speaker 4 (01:30:08):
Little bit, just what I've researched for talks on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:30:12):
Okay, so yeah, well Babylonian but based off Sir Marian. Yes. So,
what we were talking about way earlier in the show
that you might find interesting is that King Peymon he
can be traced back to being one of the Four Wins.
And if you remember in the Numa Elise, one of
Marduke's greatest weapons that he used to defeat Tiamont was

(01:30:33):
the Four Wins.

Speaker 4 (01:30:35):
Isn't usually depicted holding a bunch of lightning?

Speaker 1 (01:30:37):
Yeah, he has all that too.

Speaker 4 (01:30:38):
Do you think those are the Wins?

Speaker 1 (01:30:40):
No, it's because he lights himself on fire too, Like
he has all kinds of different magical stuff to use.
But the Four Winds are one of his weapons and
defeats Tiamont with it with them.

Speaker 4 (01:30:50):
Dude, that one person lights on fire in the film.

Speaker 1 (01:30:53):
Oh yeah, the dad. We were making fun of him.

Speaker 3 (01:30:55):
He's a wet noodle we were talking about.

Speaker 4 (01:30:59):
Well, I mean, if that's one of the abilities, that's
also kind of interesting. Although it kills them slow oaths
that burns up the enemies of the Exorcist. I mean,
you never know who I mean Primond was just the
one they were worshiping. They could have had flower oaths
to be like the bouncer, you know, Dad got a
little too close.

Speaker 5 (01:31:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:31:16):
Well, and I mean if if I understand that go correctly.
As a king was dealing with the rank of kings,
it's possible he might have dominion over some of the
lesser members of the the Goaliesha.

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):
Yeah, he's one of the four Wins. He has over
all of them.

Speaker 3 (01:31:35):
Yeah, right, except for the other kings, except for the other.

Speaker 1 (01:31:37):
Three, Yeah, like him and Lucifer. Yeah, those are the
only Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:31:43):
It's entirely possible that there are subservient you know, entities.

Speaker 1 (01:31:48):
Well, that's why the calling upon the demon kings is
so useful, allegedly with this lore, because you can just
have total control domination over left lesser spirits if like
you do it right, because like you got one of
the four Wins on your side, you got one of
the most powerful things in existence. That's what I was
getting at earlier, was like Peymon isn't not just like
a simple demon. He's one of the most powerful currents

(01:32:10):
of energy in the cosmos that Martok used to defeat
the Mother of the gods.

Speaker 3 (01:32:19):
Yeah, he's plugged in.

Speaker 1 (01:32:20):
Yeah, he's not just a mere demon, right.

Speaker 3 (01:32:23):
Yeah. Anybody that's got legions plural, you know that they
command is probably a big deal.

Speaker 1 (01:32:29):
Yeah, So something like Peymon is like, really it's a
lot more hardcore than people might think at first when
they're just glancing over the the ours Gaweisha, they're like, Oh,
this guy looks cool, gives me cool stuff, does cool stuff.
Let's call this guy up. When he's literally like the
CEO of all the other demons.

Speaker 3 (01:32:48):
Yeah, it seems very reckless to me, especially when you
consider that the the first copies of the Goisha that
were discovered were included in the document, presumably a note
from Solomon, King Solomon to his son kind of saying, hey,

(01:33:08):
you know, here's this collection of documents. I wrote my
notes basically, take them now that you're ready for him.
But uh, my point with that is, if that, if
that's really the case, if you know, if all that's accurate,
The Guisha wasn't written as a handbook, you know, for

(01:33:29):
public use. It was meant very specifically to be passed on,
you know, from Solomon to his son directly, and it's
only sort of an accident of history that that we
have it, you know, freely available to everyone on the planet.

Speaker 1 (01:33:43):
Well, didn't he lock them all up to like before
he was when he was done making the temple? Like
they were locked up for centuries or even millennia possibly,
if I remember.

Speaker 3 (01:33:54):
There's different myths. Yeah, yeah, there's different myths that he
was that he locked them all into a chest store
a bottle and then threw it into the ocean, and
that you know, at some point that'll weaken and they'll
li'll break free, or that it's already happened and they're
free now, depending on different versions of the story. But

(01:34:15):
but yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's the myth of it, right,
the story of it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:20):
Yeah, But how you get a lock up Paymon, who's
like one of the energies that make existence actually work,
because he's one of the four wins?

Speaker 3 (01:34:27):
Well that you know, the theory is that Solomon, the
tagic magic he was using, invoked the authority of God himself.

Speaker 1 (01:34:38):
Yeah, I guess Pema muld have to listen to that.
Huh that's coming from a Christian dogma?

Speaker 3 (01:34:42):
Sure, sure, I mean I'm not really I wasn't there,
you know, I can't confirm personally, but that's the that's
the concept, that's the theory behind how any of this works.
You know, if you're going to use the gouisha, that's
how you're going to use it. That's how the rituals
are are laid out. So like that's the framework they're using,
which which is you are compelling them by the authority

(01:35:03):
of God that you yourself would have no, you know,
nothing to bargain with with these demons, that they're not
going to want to hear what you have to say,
but by calling on the authority of God and leveraging
that that they essentially have to listen to you.

Speaker 1 (01:35:20):
So, if Peymon was used to blow up Tiamat and
then Earth was made from Tiamat's body, could we summon
Peymon and like shoot him like a death Star to
blow up other planets?

Speaker 3 (01:35:34):
What like the Apophus media that No, like straight up
to the death Star.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
I mean he he blew up Tiamat. Tiamat was used
to make our planet Earth. Why can't we summon him
to like blow up other planets like the death Star?

Speaker 4 (01:35:47):
I mean, why would using that name and aspect of
what he was used by Tiamot. Otherwise you're just gonna
get Robin Williams.

Speaker 3 (01:35:57):
I'm just curious what your plan is, Tim, Like, what
what planet do you want to blow up? Okay, what
are you getting? What are you trying to do?

Speaker 1 (01:36:05):
First step conquer Earth? Second step conquer the stars? Baby,
easy peasy.

Speaker 3 (01:36:13):
All right, all right, nobody give this man a copy
of The Going Shit.

Speaker 1 (01:36:17):
The plan can't fail.

Speaker 6 (01:36:21):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:36:21):
That's all for this episode. Hat Rabbit. Thank you for
joining me and Chills, thank you for joining me. It
has been an excellent show.

Speaker 3 (01:36:27):
Thank you, sir ma I just say it before we
all quit. I want to send a happy birthday to
my girlfriend and thank you very much for having me
on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:36:35):
Absolutely, don't forget to go visit to the Whole Rabbit
dot com slash awesome. I mean he doesn't have a website,
but go check out his podcast basically where all podcasts
are served, The Whole Rabbit. You can't miss it.

Speaker 4 (01:36:48):
Yeah, search the Whole Rabbit anywhere, Spotify, whatever. And if
you like this show, you probably like The Whole Rabbit.
And we have Tim all the time. Come out and
write shows for us, so yeah, come hang out.

Speaker 1 (01:37:01):
Also check out Chills podcast. It's called ho you on
your for stuff And that is a wrap. See y'all
next time.

Speaker 3 (01:37:10):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:38:39):
That's all for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed this
special guest Chills, Thank you so much on this episode
of Hereditary and Haimon the Demon King, as well as
the surprise guests of hack Rabbit and hecka Astra. This
was kind of an interesting and unique episode where it
was just anybody who wanted to coming on the discord

(01:39:00):
could come in and talk. So this is what happened
and now it went down. I hope you enjoyed it.
I think I'm going to do one of these like
once a month from now on, so give me some feedback,
let me know what you think. These are not going
to be specifically just for patrons or the people who
subscribe to the Chronicles Vault. This is going to be
just open for everybody and not my normal formats, so

(01:39:24):
you know anyway. Crypto Chronicles is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Spreaker, Stitcher,
Google Podcasts, and basically all podcast hubs. You look for
us and we are there, and let's skip all the pleasantries.
This was a super duper long episode, and it's going
to be free for everybody, so no need to do
any extra stuff. I'd like to thank my patrons, so MJ. Calvo, Cody,

(01:39:49):
George Enya, Emily Schmily six', One DAMON, Z David, Aguire, Phantom,
Deirdre Carlos, Moran Chip, Medean Daddeus, marath Sad, Leah Sarah,
Griffiths Roselinda, Gonzalez, Dave Lance, Warden, Taskmaster Joe, Nye Kim,
Parton Carlos, Gonzalez, Garcia Video, Ghost Julia, page and all

(01:40:15):
of you other wonderful, patrons over one hundred of. YOU
i don't have time to say all of, you thank
you so much for your, support but most of, all
thanks for. Listening and as one of the greatest statesmen
who ever lived once, said when you want to fool the,
world tell the, truth

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Hereditary and Paimon the Demon King | Ep 117

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Hereditary and Paimon the Demon King | Ep 117