October 29, 2025 • 36 mins
Fast Casual Nation hosts Paul Barron and Cherryh Cansler interview Billal Jaber, founder of SMASHED, a chef-driven burger concept navigating the challenges of startup life in the crowded fast casual burger space. Jaber shares his journey from trademark troubles to strategic market selection, explaining why he's targeting tier-two cities, building a prototype in a micro-market, and prioritizing intentional growth over rapid expansion. Learn about his philosophy of radical simplicity, the art of the perfect smash burger, cross-training strategies, and why he's betting on quality and "cravability" to compete against burger giants like Shake Shack and Five Guys.
#FastCasualNation #SmashBurgers #RestaurantStartup
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Capital & Advisory: Are you a fast-casual restaurant startup or a technology innovator in the food service industry? Don't miss out on the opportunity to tap into decades of expertise. Reach out to Savor Capital & Advisory now to explore how their seasoned professionals can propel your business forward. Discover if you're eligible to leverage our unparalleled knowledge in food service branding and technology and take your venture to new heights.
Don't wait – amplify your voice or supercharge your startup's growth today with Savor's ecosystem of industry-leading platforms and advisory services. Visit https://www.savor.fm/capital-advisory
#FastCasualNation #SmashBurgers #RestaurantStartup
Get Your Podcast Now! Are you a hospitality or restaurant industry leader looking to amplify your voice and establish yourself as a thought leader? Look no further than SavorFM, the premier podcast platform designed exclusively for hospitality visionaries like you. Take the next step in your industry leadership journey – visit https://www.savor.fm/
Capital & Advisory: Are you a fast-casual restaurant startup or a technology innovator in the food service industry? Don't miss out on the opportunity to tap into decades of expertise. Reach out to Savor Capital & Advisory now to explore how their seasoned professionals can propel your business forward. Discover if you're eligible to leverage our unparalleled knowledge in food service branding and technology and take your venture to new heights.
Don't wait – amplify your voice or supercharge your startup's growth today with Savor's ecosystem of industry-leading platforms and advisory services. Visit https://www.savor.fm/capital-advisory
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back into another episode of Fast Casual Nation, the
podcast that started it all. Of course, next to me
is miss shri Cansel, my co host. How are you, Shriff,
I'm doing great. How are you excellent? Excellent? So looking good?
We got build Jabbar or is it Jaber or Jabbar
Jabber Jaber?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
He's coming in from a brand that I actually got
a chance to learn a little bit about at the
Fast Casual Executive Summit. He was in the perfect pitch
and that was a brand called Smashed. So, first of all, Bill,
welcome to the show. Thanks for coming in.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Oh thanks for having me. I'm honored.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So okay, So for some of our people today, we're
going to be talking about building a brand from scratch,
you know. So there's a lot of operators out there.
They might be in the throes of trying to build
a brand. We're going to get started on all of that.
So you guys stick around, all right. So we're back
(01:10):
here with Bill from Smashed, and of course i'm miss
share Canceler, and we're gonna be talking about building a
brand from scratch. Bill, let's kind of just open it
up with you. When you were on stage at the
Vascasual Executive Summit. I thought one of the most interesting
things that I don't know that brands really run across
that much, but maybe this is a common thing, and
(01:32):
that is the naming of the brand. You were running
into problems with it. First of all, where are you
now on the concept itself? And how are you going
to proceed forward with it?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Are you saying naming specifically?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
The name is so yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So even when you think you know something, it turns
out that you don't really know.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
But it's all you know. You take the journey and
you learn, right.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So I did a real quick search before you know,
moving forward with name smashed, and I saw one canceled mark.
So it's like, oh great, Well it turns out it's
a lot more complex than that with the trademark office.
But no, we you know, we we're facing a rebrand,
which is kind of painless because we're we're still small
right now. But you know, we've we've filed a couple
(02:21):
with like an intend to use, so once we get
approval on one of those, we we can move forward
with that rebrand with I think little hiccup.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Is this an expensive process for you to go through.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It realistically, like it's it's not cheap, but it's not
where I'm at. I'm very happy that we ran into
this roadblock like right now while while I'm small, rather
than with multiple locations.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, I guess the process is get a good what
is it trademarks and pad attorney, have them do the
search go through that. Could you use a platform like
a legal zoom or one of those automated platforms. Would
you trust something like that?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
No?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
No, And so there's so much nuance because it's all
based on the trademark attorney that you're dealt too. So
it's not like there's some like if they modernize the system, right,
they can totally hand this off to AI and have
AI manage this and at least you'd have some kind
of like accountability or like.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Equity in the system. But instead it's just hit or miss.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
You get one attorney who might be really strict with
their interpretation and one that isn't it So definitely going
to human being is there way to go.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Let's go into a little bit about the brand itself.
So this is a fast casual burger concept. You guys
are built more on chef driven kind of approach to burgers.
When you look at this space, very crowded obviously, though
there are not a lot of artisanal or high end
(03:56):
burger products. Is that what you're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, so we're we're doing we're doing a high end
in the sense of quality and simplicity. It sounds, you know,
simplicity sounds like it's the easiest thing, but it's it's
the most difficult thing.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
It's to make some that's simple.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
But but you know, all put together becomes something that
is a better experience and a better burger.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
What's your price point when you're saying the high end.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, our original burger is seven ninety nine, and that
goes up to like the more hands on like we
have a one where we make the bacon onion jam
in house for the burger and that was nine nine.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Okay, so price wise competitive to almost like a shake shack.
I would say that has similar costs. But you look
at the value proposition that you guys are trying to bring,
because this is the hardest you know, to break into
for at least a brand new brand that's coming out
(04:58):
of the gate. Building a value proposition, what would be
your pitch in the sense of a customer walking in
for the first time, going, this is why I would
choose Smashed or the name you're going to have over Shakeshack.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's kind of like the whole space has become so overcomplicated,
right Like I was just on Shakeshack, and don't get
me wrong, I love Shakeshack, love me a shake Shack burger,
but like right now when there's specialist is a French
onion burger.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yep, it's just so much like this is.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
At what point is it no longer a burger like
that's that's it becomes something that's just so.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Diluted, so.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Over complicated with with toppings and skin, I mean tongue
from a systems and operational stand sports standpoint, exkews that
don't really need to be there. So when you create
a burger that's just craveble on its own, you know,
beef is the star of the show. You you know
what it takes to boost the omami and that beef
to really make that beef shine. And then you make
(06:05):
a burger where every component of it.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Is just a little bit. You know, you elevate.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
If you can elevate every part five percent, you get
a better burger just from these individual increases, whether that
be something as simple as just like salt your tomatoes, right, like,
people aren't salting tomatoes, and there's no reason they become
so much better with salt. So you know, you salt
the tomatoes, you you know, whatever it may be, You
(06:31):
make every little part better and you end up with
a burger that tastes exactly like what you want a
burger to tastes like you don't need to muddy it
with any other flavors, condiments, anything like that.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
And its simplicity. I think that's what brings that.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I use the term craveability a lot because I think
that's such a good way to describe what we do
as smash and it's just making some that you actually
you eat, you don't feel awful from, and you you
want more.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
You're always you know, it stays on your mind.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
We're hearing this term a lot, and that is QSR plus.
We heard it at the you know, the event this year.
You have kind of this elevated level of quick service.
Burger typically has dominated that space for quite some time.
When you look at QSR plus, who is trying to
(07:26):
impede on this category specifically those are the burger titans.
Are you at all trying to deal with that or
are you trying to lever up into even a better
experience for the customer that creates a better value kind
of almost like heading into casual dining zone. What's the
(07:46):
strategy here for you guys?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah, we try to.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I think it's like a middle point that we're trying
to be right, It's like craft Steed or something like that,
right where we can we can actually take the that
chef driven approach that fast casual has with that convenience
and speed that QSR is, your QSR plus brings to
the table to create kind of like not necessarily creating
(08:13):
a lane, but joining a lane that not many are in,
but can easily be executed with a concept like a
burger shop where we don't have too much going on.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
What's your turntime?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Four minutes?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Four minutes? Okay, from order to delivery four minutes? So
you can easily do this through a drive through. Have
you implemented drive through or are you straight counter service?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
That's right now, we're straight counter. But the plan without
a doubt is to have a drive through.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Moving forward, Can you talk about like the smashed aspect
of the burger, because all these other burgers they're not
doing the smashed I mean some of them are. But
you know what's different about your guys' offering.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
So it's funny too, because what's different just doing it
the right way and the authentic way which you have
is like let's say, you know, when people think of
smashed burgers, they think of smash burgers become almost like
Kleenex with tissues. Right, But if you if you ever
look at what they use in their videos on YouTube
where they show how they tom.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Ryan before there you go, there you go.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So so that press that they have, right, it's recessed
and it's shaped, and so really they're just like they
putting on the griddle, but they're just pressing it. They're
forming a patty on the gribble. What we're doing instead
is straight up with with with with the kind of
force that you know only comes with a rough, busy day.
(09:38):
You smash that thing down to where we have, i mean,
a patty this thin. And the idea is just increase
that service area, increase that my ard reaction. You know,
heat that sugars creates the greatest thing known to mankind,
and so the more you you increase that surface area,
(09:59):
the better. The better or a seer, the better the
flavor that you're going to get from that patty.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
When okay, so there's a handful of burgers that that
kind of go with that really thin profile out there
for you guys. Do you find well, I guess do
you are these singles, doubles, triples? What does this look like?
You know in terms of the format of the burger itself?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
So, I mean, we offer as many as you want,
but we do standard. It's a double two two and
a half.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Ounce patties, all right, Okay, so two two and a
half ounce that gets going. Cook time could probably get
accelerated because of the process you guys are using right now.
Is there any kind of special equipment you know for
a startup? I'm thinking what kind of equipment did you
guys have to implement to get this rolling into what
you're trying to do as a as a brand.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Quality spatula is and a good griddle like a one
inch plate kind of you know, we run at our
location right now. We don't natural guests or propa, which
does help because propane burns hotter, right, So Yeah, you
just need high heat, good equipment like and I don't
mean necessarily, and a and a good smash, a good
(11:11):
arm to be able to really smash that thing down with,
you know, channel all that all that.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Rage goes into those burgers. But they're made with love
and rage.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
Love and rage. I love it.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
That should be the name rage.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
That's actually kind of let me write this down right,
love and rage.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It's a great thing.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Otherwise there's not there's not much.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It's it's a simplicity that like, you know, it's it
makes you you think that it's very easy, but it's
just perfecting simplicity that you don't need that much. We
have a small footprint. I mean we can open with
very little, minimal equipment and effort and still turn out
(11:56):
a product that you know, it's about.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Your square footage. What is that an idea?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And in this location we're way too big. We're at
like twenty five hundred square feet and there's so much
a dead space. But ideally probably around twelve twelve to
fifteen hundred.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
Right, you have the one location. Now, so what's the
like the growth trajectory.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
So it was funny that summit just the fast catch
the Executive Summit. Anybody watching this, you guys need to
go to this thing, like really talking to people like
I was gung ho on, like We're going to open
three three corporate locations then go franchise, and and so
many people at the at a summ in just so
many experiences that you hear that make you start to
(12:40):
really question the things that you thought you you were
certain about. So I think, you know, now I just
sound like I'm all over the place, but I'm thinking
to go a little bit more corporate, sticking with a
corporate route to really fully understand what we are, who
we are, what different markets, what problems come up arise
(13:02):
from different markets, and then start franchising from there.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
So probably three four years out.
Speaker 5 (13:08):
How will you fund that though? What's the funding situation?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
So right now I'm self funding.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I haven't taken any outside outside money. The plan is
to have that second location fund the third location. If
that's not capable, probably like a bank loan, looking for
some short term that we can pay off pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Okay, so small to start get rolling, kind of prove
the concept, put it into play. Are you at all worried?
Because this is the I think This is the issue
with most startup brands is they get into certain markets
and they have these behemoths, whether it's a regional concept
or maybe a national concept that are competing with them
(14:00):
market share. Are you guys at all worried about that
in terms of because Burger's crowded space or do you
think you're gonna just carve out you know, some love
and rage here for for this.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So there's definitely, of course, you know, anytime there's you know,
direct competition with you, it's it's you know, there there's
plus there's good things and bad things that come with that, right.
But my goal where where I've kind of been looking
at are in markets like mid markets that are too
small for like shake Shack to step into, but still
(14:33):
big enough to where you have a legitimate population who's
hungry for things like this, who they want a shake
Shack by them, They want five guys to pay attention
to them. And we can easily come into space like
that with arguably a better product and and and take
over a market like that where we don't have that
(14:56):
kind of competition.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Well, those are tier two markets. This is a strategy
that I don't see a lot of brands use. And
it's one that I think is missed in the industry
because to your point, a lot of the major brands,
usually the regionals or even the nationals, they stay in
these metro areas that have you know, high density, good demographics.
(15:20):
But there's a lot of these food deserts out there
and these second tier markets that are wide open, and
I see them all the time. And there's been a
several brands that have kind of capitalized on that. If
you look at Sonic Drive in, they were a mid
tier brand that built you know, what are the three
thousand units now, but it's crazy and they all went
after little fifty sixty thousand, you know, hometown and they
(15:44):
became the spot, you know, for that that particular location.
So it's interesting that you go on that route because
I'm glad to hear it because I don't see a
lot of fast casual guys go in that direction. So
kudos to you. What would you say is the hardest
thing you've done so far?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
The hardest thing just this, uh, this entire location. You know,
we started out in a in a we're in a
micro market. We've got less than eight thousand population where
we opened it. Definitely. It's not a it's not an
ideal spot. It's not a good location that we're in.
I'll be the first to say that and honestly say it.
(16:22):
It's a prototype. Right, So rather than coming at this
as as I'm going to open up my restaurant, I'm
I'm going to to fight to make this thing succeed,
then I want to replicate it. I kind of came
in more like I had an opportunity for a low
risk prototype for this restaurant, so I did it.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
That location is across from another business you own, right,
is that why.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
You Well, it's not a cross, but it's very close.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
It's it's actually we're in my dad's shopping center like
my dad owns the it's a small strip mall and
like I said, in a micro market. So it's not
an ideal but we're able to kind of create this prototype.
It's like a beta test for a restaurant with with low,
low risk opportunity like that to kind of.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Try it out. And now when we.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Do, you know where we're actively scouting at the moment,
when we do finally lock in on that second third location,
I'm hoping to do two kind of simultaneously when we
when we lock in those, we know what we truly need.
We're not built in a massive market where now I'm
overdoing my labor and I'm making all these decisions based
(17:29):
on being in this huge market. No, I'm making decisions
based on being in a micro market. And if what
we what works here, I don't see any reason why
it wouldn't work even better in a in a higher
population area.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, what have you?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Have?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
You selected the markets yet? What's your what's your plan?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
We are so we have.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
We've kind of narrated down to three cities nearby that
we're kind of constantly watching with real estate agents, with
business brokers kind of keeping eyes out for us.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, all right, well stay on it there, because real
estate is going to be a that's going to be
I think your achilles heel because of the drive through
components that you've got to hold.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I got it's so hard to find that exists, like
a second gen drive through space. Yeah, those things don't exist.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, it's a it's a unicorn. Well, and you know,
if you're if you're going to build on that, then
you go into the end cap model, which I'm always
worried about fast casuals that try to find that because
that's a premium space. Typically they lock you into long
term leases, and you're also slotted into maybe a box
that's bigger than what you wanted, which is all negative positioning,
(18:40):
you know, for the brand. So hopefully you won't run
into those. So you're gonna have to grow slow and
slow and flow. Yeah, for Love and Rage, I.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Feel like you're locked in now, Bro.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
We have that's it. I'm not I don't, I don't,
I don't not like. That's probably one of the best
the ones. Yes, Love and Rage Burgers.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Hey, there's been some pretty crazy names out there in
the burger category that over the years that have happened.
I still I don't know who's your favorite? Share Who
would you say is your favorite burger brand right now?
In fast casual.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Man, I mean name wise, I like Bear Burger just
because the name's fun.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
But my burger place, I mean Smash Burger.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I guess if I had to choose right now, Okay,
but I like the taste.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I go the artisan route, and you should check this out.
Bill is a brand called Rome Artisan out of San Francisco.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
Film It looks amazing though the.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Minute you do it, you're going to go this is
what I was missing. You know. It's one of those
brands that does a really great job, but it has
kind of a nuance of what you're trying to do,
which is, even though they do go that direction of
creating these crazy, you know, components, I don't know if
it would be like, you know, what Shakeshack has been
(20:04):
trying to do, but they always have some gourmet element.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
I think it's even above Shakeshack's with.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's almost to the level of casual dining.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Yeah, I mean, and the price points higher too.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yes, much higher. But when it comes to burgers, if
you guys are ever in San Francisco, check out Josh's
Place Rome Artisan. Uh, they do a pretty good job
exactly what Yeah, they're doing exactly what you're doing, Bill
are going to be doing, which is they're growing internally,
you know, and scaling one unit at a time, very
(20:35):
local and regional and staying with that approach. So I
think you're on the right track there. Beyond real estate
the brand problems that you dealt with early on, and
you know, operationally, I think it sounds like you're dialed
in on that in terms of the infrastructure of the business.
(20:55):
You know, the team, the people you try to get
on the through. What kind of challenges have you run
into there, because that's another startup pain point that a
lot of early brands face.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, it's uh so what we learned was we quickly
learned cross training, cross training, cross training everybody here. If
you if you wash the dishes, if you ring up
customers out a point of sale, you know how to
smash a burger on the grill, you know how to
build a burger on that expo line like you. Uh,
(21:30):
we cross train every single person, so we're not running
into any kind of just dead weight kind of thing.
Everybody knows how to do everything, and anybody can jump
in if we have call outs or anything like that,
which I think rather than trying to cut staff, we
just reduce friction and that's helped us a lot. That's
made us a lot wiser with our labor. And granted,
(21:51):
I will say our labor is high here right now,
like we we recently now hit a point of like
fifty five percent labor. But that yeah, but that said
that includes me. I have another business this you know,
my steady paycheck comes from another business. So it came
from a place of needing a salary GM who this
(22:12):
is definitely you're in a population of eight thousand.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
This is owner operator territory.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
There's no chance you run with a GM and a
GM at that who's only pulling twenty hours a week
on actual law shift. No, this is an owner operator
your work in every single.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Day kind of space.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
But we kept it that way, and I'm keeping it
that way one to protect the brand. If I try
to spread myself too thin, this brand's going to suffer.
I'd rather be at break even with a fifty five
percent labor at the moment than have a thirty thirty
five percent labor and not be able to keep up
and keep consistency for the customers.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Man, it sounds I mean this is the uh listen,
this is the point of pain in fast casual. Is
the startup zone because this where brands either make it
or they break. You know, and kudos to you because
we don't. You know, we haven't had too many early
stage concepts on the show because there there's not that
(23:13):
many of them out there that are in those early
startup phases. We see a lot of regional brands that
have kind of established and are growing from here. But man,
the casualties are high. So I'm sending you lots of
good vibes, you know, to try to get this through
over the line for you.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Everything intentional, everything you know, thought out, from from the
steps that we take on a corporate side to even
just our menu and what items make it onto the menu.
I'm I'm Intentionality is the name of my game. I
you know you it's like measure twice cut ones, right,
So we don't take you know, you don't take silly risks.
(23:54):
You think things through, and then this way, when we
do make a move, we make a move confidently.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Interesting, that's a different approach because I see a lot
of startups that are thinking, you know, they think the
fail forward model, which is much more abstract in terms
of yeah, they want to take a lot of risks
and figure out what doesn't work and hopefully still be
alive at the end of the game. So interesting that
(24:21):
you're going that route. Let's go into our rapid fire segment,
which is to kind of get your opinion on how
you would take some things share. Do you want to
kick it off?
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Yeah, sure, Let's talk about biggest threat is it QSR
going upscale or casual dining coming down to fast casual.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I think with either one, it's a matter of complacency.
When brands stop really trying to be what the customers
are looking for. I think that that's the biggest risk
across any of these segments.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
It is. It's one of those things where they lose
their way. We've seen a lot of brands that have
lost their way, especially flaying fast casual, and they kind
of become something else. If you had to pick one
metric to beat, would it be Chipotle's throughput or shake
Shacks AUV?
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Oh, it's Foley's throughput throughput?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Okay, all right? That creates volume, which is volume always
wins volume.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
You're doing volume, right, is what's gonna is what's going
to win the game for you?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Right? Yeah? For sure?
Speaker 5 (25:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:23):
All right? What do you think fast casual segment in
twenty thirty? Is it bigger or smaller than it is
right now?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
That's easy, come on, it's bigger, but I think tighter.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
I think simpler.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Okay, all right, So more simplistic concepts out there that'll
be interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Five core menu items, you know, that's keep it simple.
You limit especially limiting customization, like like you know, you
give somebody a Starbucks app and oh my god, look
at what they do with their drinks. You limit that,
you prevent that. It creates a better experience for everybody.
And I think that's kind of where the space is
moving toward.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
If you could get in the boardroom of any fast
casual concept out there today, past or present. Think about
Ron Shake, Panera Bread when he was first starting, Steve
el opening up Chipotle, Randy Garudi bringing Shakeshack off of
Madison Square. Where would you step into, or or someone
(26:24):
like a Shaquille O'Neal starting Big Chicken. I mean, you
know in there like when they're just getting started, Like
you whose boardroom would you join?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Honestly, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna have to go
with just a local, hometown lot of Todd Graves raising
Kine and and this guy really started Like it's the
exact story, right, he built something from nothing and just
slowly intentionally grew this thing into something that I mean,
(26:57):
you know what Raising Keynes is today, It's incredibly.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Huge, huge, Yeah, it's it's one of those stars. I
think it is the category leader when when in terms
of leading chicken out into into QSR plus or fast casual.
It was Raising Canes that did it.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
And that simplicity, that's the thing. Such a limited menu.
I mean, heck, even their chicken sandwich just tenders on
a bum like everything lived with these tenders and just
he perfected that system and that art, and it's you know,
I don't think there's anybody out there that you say
Raising Canes and they have negative thoughts, like you didn't
say what you will The chicken is bland, but that's
(27:34):
a vessel for the sauce. You can't have a overly
seasoned chicken tenant. There's nothing poor to say about them.
They're just they do everything so well.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, they've definitely hit a home run with that, and
it is the core principles of you know, building something
that is really bigger than the brand itself, which is
what Raising Canes has been able to do. So that's
a good one. I'm glad you picked that one because
I didn't. I didn't think about he and.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
I had to go with a homeboy.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
You know, I've been that original location before and it's
it's it's neat.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That's a pretty cool things. Bill go ahead, one more question.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Best brand straddling the QSR and fast casual line or
fast casual and casual dining kind of the brand doing
it all right now?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, I'd say maybe like uh Canes for like conviction
and Sweet Green for systems that I think I think
kind of like a mix of those two, like between
those two just fantastic.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
That's that would be a good blend because I yeah, yeah,
their system program is pretty tied, you know, they they
do struggle in some other areas, but systems wise, Sweet
Greens has definitely been on top.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Bill, it's been good having you on. We love to
get uh you know, brands on that are just beginning,
and we're going to start hopefully a more more podcast
around this. So if you guys love what we're talking
about here in terms of building a business, maybe it's
your first time to get a brand off the ground,
let us know in the comments. Bill's been great having
(29:16):
you in today. Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Hey, thank you guys. It's been fun.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
We'll tech that that name in a few months.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
There you go, there we go. I'll follow the trademark
right now, Love.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And rage, Love and Raige. I mean, come on, this
is a good one anyway, Thanks Bill, We appreciate it,
all right, Shera. We gotta talk about the one of
the news items that you hit that I thought was interesting,
and this was this whole move about Pliables. Okay, and
I'll share this for everybody in case you have not
(29:49):
seen this over on Fast Casual. Let me see if
I can pull it up.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Well, it's good timing because you know, Pliables is now
moving into Canada, which is a big move for them.
And I remember covering them when they first launched back
in twenty fourteen.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
Like Bill, they.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Were, you know, a founder led they only had one
or two They started out as a stand and now
they have three hundred and fifty locations. So that is
the dream, right, So that's what Bill's trying to do
and all these other founders, so very very cool for them.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Love it when you see brands that are growing in
that at that speed. Are you all worried about you know,
how this is panning out for them, because we've seen
this before.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Right, But if you think about it, they started in
twenty fourteen, I mean, so that's it's not like it
happened overnight, right. They've been steadily growing, and so I
don't know. I think I think they're in a good
spot for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
So you would you would pick this one and say, Okay,
this brand, it's going to be here in ten years.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
I think so absolutely. And it was one of the
first Ici Bowls. And you know it's not a New Jersey.
They just they seem like they have it together.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
I mean they've been on our.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Top They've been on our top one hundred list several times.
Speaker 5 (31:06):
You know, they just keep coming back. They seem to
be steady.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
You remember freshye, right.
Speaker 5 (31:11):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I thought that.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Yeah, so that is an example.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
I really did think Freshie was you know, it had
legs with Matthew Corn when they when they first came out.
I think they're still around, you know, they're still in Canada, and.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I think there's not growing as much, right, you.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Know, it's like Sweet Green came in and kind of
stole their thunder.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
It almost seems like, but then now Sweet Greens kind
of we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Well, treet Greens is struggling a little bit. But I
just wonder what do you First of all, what do
you think has been the reason that we've seen a
little bit of this good for you sector soften a
little bit in fast casual. What do you think it is?
Speaker 4 (31:47):
I personally think it's just that customers say they want
a bunch of healthy options. They say that, but then
when it comes down to it, you know, they're still
going to.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Interesting Okay, So it's all based on consumer demand. They
tell you one thing and go the other way, and.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Well there's now there's a bunch of options.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
You know.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
There's a lot of local, regional options of those CI
and Sweet Green kind of and people seem to like
their their own little like we have one in Kansas
City called the Mix.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
It's a solid concept that I will pick that every time.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Over those brand. I love that place.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
So it's have they been Have they been growing?
Speaker 5 (32:28):
They kind of have been growing, they haven't.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
They have another different offshoot of a brand, I think
it's called Ingredient, and so they've been kind of growing there,
but they're pretty much kind of staying, staying steady. It's
not like they've been opening a lot of locations. I've
always thought that is a brand that could could thrive,
but they're staying where they are for some reason.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Maybe they're happy with Yeah, we did a lot of
AI talk at the event this year. It was probably
the number one, you know topic. I would think overall
when you look at the integration of AI and a
lot of the tool sets that we saw at the event,
whether it's the tech side or actually the operators, because
I remember the winner of the Perfect Perfect Pitch they
(33:14):
talked about utilizing AI quite a bit. Is this something
that you're feeling almost every brand is now on a
full on race, kind of like the early stages of
social media. Is that what's happening.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
Yeah, they're definitely in it.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
I mean they're all there in different places, but most
people are at least using them, it seems to me,
at least for marketing and for you know, predictive ordering,
those are the two easiest ways that people are incorporating that.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I think.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah, well, and this is the way that you keep
ahead of all this stuff, guys, is just jump over
to Fastcasual dot Com. I like the news media section here.
You can really break down into a lot of these categories,
including these subcategories like franchising, operations, tech. Good examples of
the way that you guys organize this site, which is fantastic,
(34:06):
share so, and of course you can always see our
most recent podcast on there as well. We did this
ConA Ice video and that was actually a very good
That was a very good podcast. I love that guy.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
He's brilliant. I mean, he's a lot.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Of stuff I didn't think about, you know, and being
mobile like that, so I.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Mean talk about he owns basically every channel that he
needs to be in right now, he's even with Exactly Square,
He's even working on his own point of sales.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
So I'm excited to see what he's going to do.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, there's Tony Lamb, CEO and founder of ConA Ice.
We had him on the show not too long ago,
so you guys can check it out over on Fastcasual
dot com. Oh and by the way, we have a
little bit of an announcement to make today. Do you
want to announce it today?
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Just just a little bit of an announcement. I mean,
I hate to toot our own horns, but to too.
Fast Casual Nation is now the number one restaurant business podcast,
tied with the Ultimate David chang Out of New York.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
So we are honored to have that.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I was blown away by that this little podcast has
become the world's greatest podcast when it comes to restaurant business.
I mean, that is insane. I can only say thank you, Shara,
and thank you.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
I mean, we're a good little duo. I guess. I
mean my mom is so proud you guys.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Well there you go. Mom says, Hey, good job kid,
keep it up. What are you doing over there?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
I mean, well, you guys know what to do.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
We have some good guests coming up in the next
couple weeks that I'm excited about.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Also, yeah, lots of good guests coming up. We are
going to start breaking the podcast mold again in terms
of the way that we're bringing you guys content each week.
We have a lot of new ideas that I'm going
to throw out to Shara and her team for twenty
twenty six that might increase our reach even broader. So
(36:03):
get ready. There's some cool stuff I think going to
be coming for the show. And if you have an
idea for the show, you know what to do. Just
hit us down in the comments below. You can also
leave us a five star rating over on Spotify or
over on Apple Podcasts. We love all of that. This
is also a podcast that craves the podcasting two point
zero apps that are out there, so if you're not
(36:25):
on podcast Guru or some of those, check it out.
This podcast lives over there so you can find out
all of the good things around podcasting two point zero.
All right, sah, we'll see you next week right here,
A fast casual nation.
Welcome back into another episode of Fast Casual Nation, the
podcast that started it all. Of course, next to me
is miss shri Cansel, my co host. How are you, Shriff,
I'm doing great. How are you excellent? Excellent? So looking good?
We got build Jabbar or is it Jaber or Jabbar
Jabber Jaber?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
He's coming in from a brand that I actually got
a chance to learn a little bit about at the
Fast Casual Executive Summit. He was in the perfect pitch
and that was a brand called Smashed. So, first of all, Bill,
welcome to the show. Thanks for coming in.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Oh thanks for having me. I'm honored.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So okay, So for some of our people today, we're
going to be talking about building a brand from scratch,
you know. So there's a lot of operators out there.
They might be in the throes of trying to build
a brand. We're going to get started on all of that.
So you guys stick around, all right. So we're back
(01:10):
here with Bill from Smashed, and of course i'm miss
share Canceler, and we're gonna be talking about building a
brand from scratch. Bill, let's kind of just open it
up with you. When you were on stage at the
Vascasual Executive Summit. I thought one of the most interesting
things that I don't know that brands really run across
that much, but maybe this is a common thing, and
(01:32):
that is the naming of the brand. You were running
into problems with it. First of all, where are you
now on the concept itself? And how are you going
to proceed forward with it?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Are you saying naming specifically?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
The name is so yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So even when you think you know something, it turns
out that you don't really know.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
But it's all you know. You take the journey and
you learn, right.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So I did a real quick search before you know,
moving forward with name smashed, and I saw one canceled mark.
So it's like, oh great, Well it turns out it's
a lot more complex than that with the trademark office.
But no, we you know, we we're facing a rebrand,
which is kind of painless because we're we're still small
right now. But you know, we've we've filed a couple
(02:21):
with like an intend to use, so once we get
approval on one of those, we we can move forward
with that rebrand with I think little hiccup.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Is this an expensive process for you to go through.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It realistically, like it's it's not cheap, but it's not
where I'm at. I'm very happy that we ran into
this roadblock like right now while while I'm small, rather
than with multiple locations.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, I guess the process is get a good what
is it trademarks and pad attorney, have them do the
search go through that. Could you use a platform like
a legal zoom or one of those automated platforms. Would
you trust something like that?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
No?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
No, And so there's so much nuance because it's all
based on the trademark attorney that you're dealt too. So
it's not like there's some like if they modernize the system, right,
they can totally hand this off to AI and have
AI manage this and at least you'd have some kind
of like accountability or like.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Equity in the system. But instead it's just hit or miss.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
You get one attorney who might be really strict with
their interpretation and one that isn't it So definitely going
to human being is there way to go.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Let's go into a little bit about the brand itself.
So this is a fast casual burger concept. You guys
are built more on chef driven kind of approach to burgers.
When you look at this space, very crowded obviously, though
there are not a lot of artisanal or high end
(03:56):
burger products. Is that what you're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, so we're we're doing we're doing a high end
in the sense of quality and simplicity. It sounds, you know,
simplicity sounds like it's the easiest thing, but it's it's
the most difficult thing.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
It's to make some that's simple.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
But but you know, all put together becomes something that
is a better experience and a better burger.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
What's your price point when you're saying the high end.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, our original burger is seven ninety nine, and that
goes up to like the more hands on like we
have a one where we make the bacon onion jam
in house for the burger and that was nine nine.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Okay, so price wise competitive to almost like a shake shack.
I would say that has similar costs. But you look
at the value proposition that you guys are trying to bring,
because this is the hardest you know, to break into
for at least a brand new brand that's coming out
(04:58):
of the gate. Building a value proposition, what would be
your pitch in the sense of a customer walking in
for the first time, going, this is why I would
choose Smashed or the name you're going to have over Shakeshack.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's kind of like the whole space has become so overcomplicated,
right Like I was just on Shakeshack, and don't get
me wrong, I love Shakeshack, love me a shake Shack burger,
but like right now when there's specialist is a French
onion burger.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yep, it's just so much like this is.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
At what point is it no longer a burger like
that's that's it becomes something that's just so.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Diluted, so.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Over complicated with with toppings and skin, I mean tongue
from a systems and operational stand sports standpoint, exkews that
don't really need to be there. So when you create
a burger that's just craveble on its own, you know,
beef is the star of the show. You you know
what it takes to boost the omami and that beef
to really make that beef shine. And then you make
(06:05):
a burger where every component of it.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Is just a little bit. You know, you elevate.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
If you can elevate every part five percent, you get
a better burger just from these individual increases, whether that
be something as simple as just like salt your tomatoes, right, like,
people aren't salting tomatoes, and there's no reason they become
so much better with salt. So you know, you salt
the tomatoes, you you know, whatever it may be, You
(06:31):
make every little part better and you end up with
a burger that tastes exactly like what you want a
burger to tastes like you don't need to muddy it
with any other flavors, condiments, anything like that.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
And its simplicity. I think that's what brings that.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I use the term craveability a lot because I think
that's such a good way to describe what we do
as smash and it's just making some that you actually
you eat, you don't feel awful from, and you you
want more.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
You're always you know, it stays on your mind.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
We're hearing this term a lot, and that is QSR plus.
We heard it at the you know, the event this year.
You have kind of this elevated level of quick service.
Burger typically has dominated that space for quite some time.
When you look at QSR plus, who is trying to
(07:26):
impede on this category specifically those are the burger titans.
Are you at all trying to deal with that or
are you trying to lever up into even a better
experience for the customer that creates a better value kind
of almost like heading into casual dining zone. What's the
(07:46):
strategy here for you guys?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah, we try to.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I think it's like a middle point that we're trying
to be right, It's like craft Steed or something like that,
right where we can we can actually take the that
chef driven approach that fast casual has with that convenience
and speed that QSR is, your QSR plus brings to
the table to create kind of like not necessarily creating
(08:13):
a lane, but joining a lane that not many are in,
but can easily be executed with a concept like a
burger shop where we don't have too much going on.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
What's your turntime?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Four minutes?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Four minutes? Okay, from order to delivery four minutes? So
you can easily do this through a drive through. Have
you implemented drive through or are you straight counter service?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
That's right now, we're straight counter. But the plan without
a doubt is to have a drive through.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Moving forward, Can you talk about like the smashed aspect
of the burger, because all these other burgers they're not
doing the smashed I mean some of them are. But
you know what's different about your guys' offering.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
So it's funny too, because what's different just doing it
the right way and the authentic way which you have
is like let's say, you know, when people think of
smashed burgers, they think of smash burgers become almost like
Kleenex with tissues. Right, But if you if you ever
look at what they use in their videos on YouTube
where they show how they tom.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Ryan before there you go, there you go.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So so that press that they have, right, it's recessed
and it's shaped, and so really they're just like they
putting on the griddle, but they're just pressing it. They're
forming a patty on the gribble. What we're doing instead
is straight up with with with with the kind of
force that you know only comes with a rough, busy day.
(09:38):
You smash that thing down to where we have, i mean,
a patty this thin. And the idea is just increase
that service area, increase that my ard reaction. You know,
heat that sugars creates the greatest thing known to mankind,
and so the more you you increase that surface area,
(09:59):
the better. The better or a seer, the better the
flavor that you're going to get from that patty.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
When okay, so there's a handful of burgers that that
kind of go with that really thin profile out there
for you guys. Do you find well, I guess do
you are these singles, doubles, triples? What does this look like?
You know in terms of the format of the burger itself?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
So, I mean, we offer as many as you want,
but we do standard. It's a double two two and
a half.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Ounce patties, all right, Okay, so two two and a
half ounce that gets going. Cook time could probably get
accelerated because of the process you guys are using right now.
Is there any kind of special equipment you know for
a startup? I'm thinking what kind of equipment did you
guys have to implement to get this rolling into what
you're trying to do as a as a brand.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Quality spatula is and a good griddle like a one
inch plate kind of you know, we run at our
location right now. We don't natural guests or propa, which
does help because propane burns hotter, right, So Yeah, you
just need high heat, good equipment like and I don't
mean necessarily, and a and a good smash, a good
(11:11):
arm to be able to really smash that thing down with,
you know, channel all that all that.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Rage goes into those burgers. But they're made with love
and rage.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
Love and rage. I love it.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
That should be the name rage.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
That's actually kind of let me write this down right,
love and rage.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It's a great thing.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Otherwise there's not there's not much.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It's it's a simplicity that like, you know, it's it
makes you you think that it's very easy, but it's
just perfecting simplicity that you don't need that much. We
have a small footprint. I mean we can open with
very little, minimal equipment and effort and still turn out
(11:56):
a product that you know, it's about.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Your square footage. What is that an idea?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And in this location we're way too big. We're at
like twenty five hundred square feet and there's so much
a dead space. But ideally probably around twelve twelve to
fifteen hundred.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
Right, you have the one location. Now, so what's the
like the growth trajectory.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
So it was funny that summit just the fast catch
the Executive Summit. Anybody watching this, you guys need to
go to this thing, like really talking to people like
I was gung ho on, like We're going to open
three three corporate locations then go franchise, and and so
many people at the at a summ in just so
many experiences that you hear that make you start to
(12:40):
really question the things that you thought you you were
certain about. So I think, you know, now I just
sound like I'm all over the place, but I'm thinking
to go a little bit more corporate, sticking with a
corporate route to really fully understand what we are, who
we are, what different markets, what problems come up arise
(13:02):
from different markets, and then start franchising from there.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
So probably three four years out.
Speaker 5 (13:08):
How will you fund that though? What's the funding situation?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
So right now I'm self funding.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I haven't taken any outside outside money. The plan is
to have that second location fund the third location. If
that's not capable, probably like a bank loan, looking for
some short term that we can pay off pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Okay, so small to start get rolling, kind of prove
the concept, put it into play. Are you at all worried?
Because this is the I think This is the issue
with most startup brands is they get into certain markets
and they have these behemoths, whether it's a regional concept
or maybe a national concept that are competing with them
(14:00):
market share. Are you guys at all worried about that
in terms of because Burger's crowded space or do you
think you're gonna just carve out you know, some love
and rage here for for this.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So there's definitely, of course, you know, anytime there's you know,
direct competition with you, it's it's you know, there there's
plus there's good things and bad things that come with that, right.
But my goal where where I've kind of been looking
at are in markets like mid markets that are too
small for like shake Shack to step into, but still
(14:33):
big enough to where you have a legitimate population who's
hungry for things like this, who they want a shake
Shack by them, They want five guys to pay attention
to them. And we can easily come into space like
that with arguably a better product and and and take
over a market like that where we don't have that
(14:56):
kind of competition.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Well, those are tier two markets. This is a strategy
that I don't see a lot of brands use. And
it's one that I think is missed in the industry
because to your point, a lot of the major brands,
usually the regionals or even the nationals, they stay in
these metro areas that have you know, high density, good demographics.
(15:20):
But there's a lot of these food deserts out there
and these second tier markets that are wide open, and
I see them all the time. And there's been a
several brands that have kind of capitalized on that. If
you look at Sonic Drive in, they were a mid
tier brand that built you know, what are the three
thousand units now, but it's crazy and they all went
after little fifty sixty thousand, you know, hometown and they
(15:44):
became the spot, you know, for that that particular location.
So it's interesting that you go on that route because
I'm glad to hear it because I don't see a
lot of fast casual guys go in that direction. So
kudos to you. What would you say is the hardest
thing you've done so far?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
The hardest thing just this, uh, this entire location. You know,
we started out in a in a we're in a
micro market. We've got less than eight thousand population where
we opened it. Definitely. It's not a it's not an
ideal spot. It's not a good location that we're in.
I'll be the first to say that and honestly say it.
(16:22):
It's a prototype. Right, So rather than coming at this
as as I'm going to open up my restaurant, I'm
I'm going to to fight to make this thing succeed,
then I want to replicate it. I kind of came
in more like I had an opportunity for a low
risk prototype for this restaurant, so I did it.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
That location is across from another business you own, right,
is that why.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
You Well, it's not a cross, but it's very close.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
It's it's actually we're in my dad's shopping center like
my dad owns the it's a small strip mall and
like I said, in a micro market. So it's not
an ideal but we're able to kind of create this prototype.
It's like a beta test for a restaurant with with low,
low risk opportunity like that to kind of.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Try it out. And now when we.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Do, you know where we're actively scouting at the moment,
when we do finally lock in on that second third location,
I'm hoping to do two kind of simultaneously when we
when we lock in those, we know what we truly need.
We're not built in a massive market where now I'm
overdoing my labor and I'm making all these decisions based
(17:29):
on being in this huge market. No, I'm making decisions
based on being in a micro market. And if what
we what works here, I don't see any reason why
it wouldn't work even better in a in a higher
population area.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, what have you?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Have?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
You selected the markets yet? What's your what's your plan?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
We are so we have.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
We've kind of narrated down to three cities nearby that
we're kind of constantly watching with real estate agents, with
business brokers kind of keeping eyes out for us.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, all right, well stay on it there, because real
estate is going to be a that's going to be
I think your achilles heel because of the drive through
components that you've got to hold.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I got it's so hard to find that exists, like
a second gen drive through space. Yeah, those things don't exist.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, it's a it's a unicorn. Well, and you know,
if you're if you're going to build on that, then
you go into the end cap model, which I'm always
worried about fast casuals that try to find that because
that's a premium space. Typically they lock you into long
term leases, and you're also slotted into maybe a box
that's bigger than what you wanted, which is all negative positioning,
(18:40):
you know, for the brand. So hopefully you won't run
into those. So you're gonna have to grow slow and
slow and flow. Yeah, for Love and Rage, I.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Feel like you're locked in now, Bro.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
We have that's it. I'm not I don't, I don't,
I don't not like. That's probably one of the best
the ones. Yes, Love and Rage Burgers.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Hey, there's been some pretty crazy names out there in
the burger category that over the years that have happened.
I still I don't know who's your favorite? Share Who
would you say is your favorite burger brand right now?
In fast casual.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Man, I mean name wise, I like Bear Burger just
because the name's fun.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
But my burger place, I mean Smash Burger.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I guess if I had to choose right now, Okay,
but I like the taste.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I go the artisan route, and you should check this out.
Bill is a brand called Rome Artisan out of San Francisco.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
Film It looks amazing though the.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Minute you do it, you're going to go this is
what I was missing. You know. It's one of those
brands that does a really great job, but it has
kind of a nuance of what you're trying to do,
which is, even though they do go that direction of
creating these crazy, you know, components, I don't know if
it would be like, you know, what Shakeshack has been
(20:04):
trying to do, but they always have some gourmet element.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
I think it's even above Shakeshack's with.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's almost to the level of casual dining.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Yeah, I mean, and the price points higher too.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yes, much higher. But when it comes to burgers, if
you guys are ever in San Francisco, check out Josh's
Place Rome Artisan. Uh, they do a pretty good job
exactly what Yeah, they're doing exactly what you're doing, Bill
are going to be doing, which is they're growing internally,
you know, and scaling one unit at a time, very
(20:35):
local and regional and staying with that approach. So I
think you're on the right track there. Beyond real estate
the brand problems that you dealt with early on, and
you know, operationally, I think it sounds like you're dialed
in on that in terms of the infrastructure of the business.
(20:55):
You know, the team, the people you try to get
on the through. What kind of challenges have you run
into there, because that's another startup pain point that a
lot of early brands face.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, it's uh so what we learned was we quickly
learned cross training, cross training, cross training everybody here. If
you if you wash the dishes, if you ring up
customers out a point of sale, you know how to
smash a burger on the grill, you know how to
build a burger on that expo line like you. Uh,
(21:30):
we cross train every single person, so we're not running
into any kind of just dead weight kind of thing.
Everybody knows how to do everything, and anybody can jump
in if we have call outs or anything like that,
which I think rather than trying to cut staff, we
just reduce friction and that's helped us a lot. That's
made us a lot wiser with our labor. And granted,
(21:51):
I will say our labor is high here right now,
like we we recently now hit a point of like
fifty five percent labor. But that yeah, but that said
that includes me. I have another business this you know,
my steady paycheck comes from another business. So it came
from a place of needing a salary GM who this
(22:12):
is definitely you're in a population of eight thousand.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
This is owner operator territory.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
There's no chance you run with a GM and a
GM at that who's only pulling twenty hours a week
on actual law shift. No, this is an owner operator
your work in every single.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Day kind of space.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
But we kept it that way, and I'm keeping it
that way one to protect the brand. If I try
to spread myself too thin, this brand's going to suffer.
I'd rather be at break even with a fifty five
percent labor at the moment than have a thirty thirty
five percent labor and not be able to keep up
and keep consistency for the customers.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Man, it sounds I mean this is the uh listen,
this is the point of pain in fast casual. Is
the startup zone because this where brands either make it
or they break. You know, and kudos to you because
we don't. You know, we haven't had too many early
stage concepts on the show because there there's not that
(23:13):
many of them out there that are in those early
startup phases. We see a lot of regional brands that
have kind of established and are growing from here. But man,
the casualties are high. So I'm sending you lots of
good vibes, you know, to try to get this through
over the line for you.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Everything intentional, everything you know, thought out, from from the
steps that we take on a corporate side to even
just our menu and what items make it onto the menu.
I'm I'm Intentionality is the name of my game. I
you know you it's like measure twice cut ones, right,
So we don't take you know, you don't take silly risks.
(23:54):
You think things through, and then this way, when we
do make a move, we make a move confidently.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Interesting, that's a different approach because I see a lot
of startups that are thinking, you know, they think the
fail forward model, which is much more abstract in terms
of yeah, they want to take a lot of risks
and figure out what doesn't work and hopefully still be
alive at the end of the game. So interesting that
(24:21):
you're going that route. Let's go into our rapid fire segment,
which is to kind of get your opinion on how
you would take some things share. Do you want to
kick it off?
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Yeah, sure, Let's talk about biggest threat is it QSR
going upscale or casual dining coming down to fast casual.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I think with either one, it's a matter of complacency.
When brands stop really trying to be what the customers
are looking for. I think that that's the biggest risk
across any of these segments.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
It is. It's one of those things where they lose
their way. We've seen a lot of brands that have
lost their way, especially flaying fast casual, and they kind
of become something else. If you had to pick one
metric to beat, would it be Chipotle's throughput or shake
Shacks AUV?
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Oh, it's Foley's throughput throughput?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Okay, all right? That creates volume, which is volume always
wins volume.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
You're doing volume, right, is what's gonna is what's going
to win the game for you?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Right? Yeah? For sure?
Speaker 5 (25:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:23):
All right? What do you think fast casual segment in
twenty thirty? Is it bigger or smaller than it is
right now?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
That's easy, come on, it's bigger, but I think tighter.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
I think simpler.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Okay, all right, So more simplistic concepts out there that'll
be interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Five core menu items, you know, that's keep it simple.
You limit especially limiting customization, like like you know, you
give somebody a Starbucks app and oh my god, look
at what they do with their drinks. You limit that,
you prevent that. It creates a better experience for everybody.
And I think that's kind of where the space is
moving toward.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
If you could get in the boardroom of any fast
casual concept out there today, past or present. Think about
Ron Shake, Panera Bread when he was first starting, Steve
el opening up Chipotle, Randy Garudi bringing Shakeshack off of
Madison Square. Where would you step into, or or someone
(26:24):
like a Shaquille O'Neal starting Big Chicken. I mean, you
know in there like when they're just getting started, Like
you whose boardroom would you join?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Honestly, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna have to go
with just a local, hometown lot of Todd Graves raising
Kine and and this guy really started Like it's the
exact story, right, he built something from nothing and just
slowly intentionally grew this thing into something that I mean,
(26:57):
you know what Raising Keynes is today, It's incredibly.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Huge, huge, Yeah, it's it's one of those stars. I
think it is the category leader when when in terms
of leading chicken out into into QSR plus or fast casual.
It was Raising Canes that did it.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
And that simplicity, that's the thing. Such a limited menu.
I mean, heck, even their chicken sandwich just tenders on
a bum like everything lived with these tenders and just
he perfected that system and that art, and it's you know,
I don't think there's anybody out there that you say
Raising Canes and they have negative thoughts, like you didn't
say what you will The chicken is bland, but that's
(27:34):
a vessel for the sauce. You can't have a overly
seasoned chicken tenant. There's nothing poor to say about them.
They're just they do everything so well.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, they've definitely hit a home run with that, and
it is the core principles of you know, building something
that is really bigger than the brand itself, which is
what Raising Canes has been able to do. So that's
a good one. I'm glad you picked that one because
I didn't. I didn't think about he and.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
I had to go with a homeboy.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
You know, I've been that original location before and it's
it's it's neat.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That's a pretty cool things. Bill go ahead, one more question.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Best brand straddling the QSR and fast casual line or
fast casual and casual dining kind of the brand doing
it all right now?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, I'd say maybe like uh Canes for like conviction
and Sweet Green for systems that I think I think
kind of like a mix of those two, like between
those two just fantastic.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
That's that would be a good blend because I yeah, yeah,
their system program is pretty tied, you know, they they
do struggle in some other areas, but systems wise, Sweet
Greens has definitely been on top.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Bill, it's been good having you on. We love to
get uh you know, brands on that are just beginning,
and we're going to start hopefully a more more podcast
around this. So if you guys love what we're talking
about here in terms of building a business, maybe it's
your first time to get a brand off the ground,
let us know in the comments. Bill's been great having
(29:16):
you in today. Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Hey, thank you guys. It's been fun.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
We'll tech that that name in a few months.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
There you go, there we go. I'll follow the trademark
right now, Love.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And rage, Love and Raige. I mean, come on, this
is a good one anyway, Thanks Bill, We appreciate it,
all right, Shera. We gotta talk about the one of
the news items that you hit that I thought was interesting,
and this was this whole move about Pliables. Okay, and
I'll share this for everybody in case you have not
(29:49):
seen this over on Fast Casual. Let me see if
I can pull it up.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Well, it's good timing because you know, Pliables is now
moving into Canada, which is a big move for them.
And I remember covering them when they first launched back
in twenty fourteen.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
Like Bill, they.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Were, you know, a founder led they only had one
or two They started out as a stand and now
they have three hundred and fifty locations. So that is
the dream, right, So that's what Bill's trying to do
and all these other founders, so very very cool for them.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Love it when you see brands that are growing in
that at that speed. Are you all worried about you know,
how this is panning out for them, because we've seen
this before.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Right, But if you think about it, they started in
twenty fourteen, I mean, so that's it's not like it
happened overnight, right. They've been steadily growing, and so I
don't know. I think I think they're in a good
spot for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
So you would you would pick this one and say, Okay,
this brand, it's going to be here in ten years.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
I think so absolutely. And it was one of the
first Ici Bowls. And you know it's not a New Jersey.
They just they seem like they have it together.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
I mean they've been on our.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Top They've been on our top one hundred list several times.
Speaker 5 (31:06):
You know, they just keep coming back. They seem to
be steady.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
You remember freshye, right.
Speaker 5 (31:11):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I thought that.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Yeah, so that is an example.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
I really did think Freshie was you know, it had
legs with Matthew Corn when they when they first came out.
I think they're still around, you know, they're still in Canada, and.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I think there's not growing as much, right, you.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Know, it's like Sweet Green came in and kind of
stole their thunder.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
It almost seems like, but then now Sweet Greens kind
of we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Well, treet Greens is struggling a little bit. But I
just wonder what do you First of all, what do
you think has been the reason that we've seen a
little bit of this good for you sector soften a
little bit in fast casual. What do you think it is?
Speaker 4 (31:47):
I personally think it's just that customers say they want
a bunch of healthy options. They say that, but then
when it comes down to it, you know, they're still
going to.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Interesting Okay, So it's all based on consumer demand. They
tell you one thing and go the other way, and.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Well there's now there's a bunch of options.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
You know.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
There's a lot of local, regional options of those CI
and Sweet Green kind of and people seem to like
their their own little like we have one in Kansas
City called the Mix.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
It's a solid concept that I will pick that every time.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Over those brand. I love that place.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
So it's have they been Have they been growing?
Speaker 5 (32:28):
They kind of have been growing, they haven't.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
They have another different offshoot of a brand, I think
it's called Ingredient, and so they've been kind of growing there,
but they're pretty much kind of staying, staying steady. It's
not like they've been opening a lot of locations. I've
always thought that is a brand that could could thrive,
but they're staying where they are for some reason.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Maybe they're happy with Yeah, we did a lot of
AI talk at the event this year. It was probably
the number one, you know topic. I would think overall
when you look at the integration of AI and a
lot of the tool sets that we saw at the event,
whether it's the tech side or actually the operators, because
I remember the winner of the Perfect Perfect Pitch they
(33:14):
talked about utilizing AI quite a bit. Is this something
that you're feeling almost every brand is now on a
full on race, kind of like the early stages of
social media. Is that what's happening.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
Yeah, they're definitely in it.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
I mean they're all there in different places, but most
people are at least using them, it seems to me,
at least for marketing and for you know, predictive ordering,
those are the two easiest ways that people are incorporating that.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I think.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah, well, and this is the way that you keep
ahead of all this stuff, guys, is just jump over
to Fastcasual dot Com. I like the news media section here.
You can really break down into a lot of these categories,
including these subcategories like franchising, operations, tech. Good examples of
the way that you guys organize this site, which is fantastic,
(34:06):
share so, and of course you can always see our
most recent podcast on there as well. We did this
ConA Ice video and that was actually a very good
That was a very good podcast. I love that guy.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
He's brilliant. I mean, he's a lot.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Of stuff I didn't think about, you know, and being
mobile like that, so I.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Mean talk about he owns basically every channel that he
needs to be in right now, he's even with Exactly Square,
He's even working on his own point of sales.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
So I'm excited to see what he's going to do.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, there's Tony Lamb, CEO and founder of ConA Ice.
We had him on the show not too long ago,
so you guys can check it out over on Fastcasual
dot com. Oh and by the way, we have a
little bit of an announcement to make today. Do you
want to announce it today?
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Just just a little bit of an announcement. I mean,
I hate to toot our own horns, but to too.
Fast Casual Nation is now the number one restaurant business podcast,
tied with the Ultimate David chang Out of New York.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
So we are honored to have that.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I was blown away by that this little podcast has
become the world's greatest podcast when it comes to restaurant business.
I mean, that is insane. I can only say thank you, Shara,
and thank you.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
I mean, we're a good little duo. I guess. I
mean my mom is so proud you guys.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Well there you go. Mom says, Hey, good job kid,
keep it up. What are you doing over there?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
I mean, well, you guys know what to do.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
We have some good guests coming up in the next
couple weeks that I'm excited about.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Also, yeah, lots of good guests coming up. We are
going to start breaking the podcast mold again in terms
of the way that we're bringing you guys content each week.
We have a lot of new ideas that I'm going
to throw out to Shara and her team for twenty
twenty six that might increase our reach even broader. So
(36:03):
get ready. There's some cool stuff I think going to
be coming for the show. And if you have an
idea for the show, you know what to do. Just
hit us down in the comments below. You can also
leave us a five star rating over on Spotify or
over on Apple Podcasts. We love all of that. This
is also a podcast that craves the podcasting two point
zero apps that are out there, so if you're not
(36:25):
on podcast Guru or some of those, check it out.
This podcast lives over there so you can find out
all of the good things around podcasting two point zero.
All right, sah, we'll see you next week right here,
A fast casual nation.
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