September 26, 2025 • 58 mins
📒 SHOW NOTES
In this episode of Filmmaking Conversations with Damien Swaby, Damien sits down with Dr. Bryan Quoc Le, Ph.D., a food scientist, consultant, and author of 150 Food Science Questions Answered.
Bryan’s career is a masterclass in curiosity-driven storytelling — one that filmmakers, storytellers, and creatives will find both inspiring and familiar.🎬 What’s inside this episode:
W: https://www.mendocinofoodconsulting.com/bryanquocle
W: 150 Food Science Questions Answered: Cook Smarter, Cook Better
W: https://www.proceragin.com
W: https://www.statesmenmarinades.com
In this episode of Filmmaking Conversations with Damien Swaby, Damien sits down with Dr. Bryan Quoc Le, Ph.D., a food scientist, consultant, and author of 150 Food Science Questions Answered.
Bryan’s career is a masterclass in curiosity-driven storytelling — one that filmmakers, storytellers, and creatives will find both inspiring and familiar.🎬 What’s inside this episode:
- A story worth filming: How Bryan’s 2,000-mile walk across America sparked his lifelong obsession with taste, survival, and the science of food.
- The art of structured storytelling: Why Bryan’s book 150 Food Science Questions Answered reads like a collection of perfectly crafted short films — each one with a setup, conflict, and resolution.
- From science to screen: Bryan’s collaboration with Emmy Award-winning filmmakers on The Food Matrix, exploring the philosophy and science of flavor.
- Bridging industries: How food science, media, and film all share a core principle — making complex ideas clear, engaging, and human.
- Big takeaways: Lessons from food science that resonate with filmmaking — clarity, curiosity, pacing, and respecting your audience’s attention.
- The central question: The deceptively simple obsession that drives all of Bryan’s work: What makes food taste good?
- Should you put hot food straight into the fridge?
- Is raw milk really safe to drink?
- Do soy and fish sauce need refrigeration once opened?
- Do canned and frozen fruits and vegetables actually lose nutrients?
W: https://www.mendocinofoodconsulting.com/bryanquocle
W: 150 Food Science Questions Answered: Cook Smarter, Cook Better
W: https://www.proceragin.com
W: https://www.statesmenmarinades.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the IFH podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to
ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Welcome to Filmmaking Conversations with Me, your host Damian Swabey.
Today we're stepping into the world of food science and
storytelling with someone whose journey is as cinematic as any
film we've talked about on this show. My guest is
Dr Brian Quockley, a food scientist, consultant, and author of
the brilliant book one hundred and fifty Food Science Questions Answered.
(00:37):
Brian's book is full of sharp, memorable pages that are
structured like perfect short films. Each one poses a question,
should hot food go straight into the fridge? Is raw
milk safe? Do sawyer sauce and fish sauce really need refrigerating?
Do frozen vegetables lose nutrients? And then delivers science, context
(00:58):
and a practical takeaway, simple, clear and powerful, And Brian
himself his life is a narrative worth filming. He once
walked two thousand miles across America, surviving on the same
meals every day, obsessing over a single question what makes
food taste good? That obsession led him from Stanford to
(01:21):
a PhD, from writing to consulting for some of the
most innovative food startups, to working with Emmy winning filmmakers
on the documentary The Food Matrix. This episode is more
than food. It's about the overlap between science, creativity, and
media and how a well told story, whether on screen
(01:43):
or on the page, can change the way we see
the world. Stay tuned because Brian's journey is proof that
curiosity can lead you anywhere, even from the lab to
the lens.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I ended up studying chemistry as a as an undergraduate,
and then I moved on at some point to studying
food science and with my PhD, and and during that time,
I think I've kind of had this very enjoyable pension
for like learning about the very minute details about food,
(02:20):
right like just all the little aspects and details, but
more so how it impacts culture. I think that was
that was actually more things got really interesting because I
come in with a science background, but I realized how
important food was in all different ways, especially interacting with
people in social groups, and it really connects us. And
(02:43):
so since since graduating in twenty twenty with my PhD,
I've started a consulting business. The last five years I've
been That's what I've been doing. And you know, part
of that's really just to fuel my you know, obsession
with food.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You know, it allows me to.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Paying the bills and sometimes you know, I put it
on the company tap to say, you know, this delicious
gourmet meal is for my own learning, you know. But yeah,
I think a lot of it is just you know,
just raw curiosity, right like I just forever curious.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
About why do we why do we enjoy what we.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Like to eat, you know, and how does that how
does that play out in all different aspects including you know,
from from what started out with you know, science communication
ended up being you know, more of discovery and how
it impacts media and impacts you know, our way of
interacting in the world.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And your book, one hundred and fifty Food Science Questions Answered,
has reached a wide audience. What inspired you to write
it and what do you hope readers will take away?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Desperation. I needed money. I got very lucky. Actually a
public sure reached out because I was I was writing
a blog for a nonprofit and I was writing all
these articles about food, and they you know, I got
sort of the inside, look at how to basically write
(04:14):
better articles. Right. So over over several years of doing that,
eventually this publisher found my found my work and they said,
do you want to write a book about food science?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I was like absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
They definitely lowballed me, and I had no what could
I do as a graduate student, And I figured, you know,
some money was better than no money, So you know,
I gave it a shot, and uh, yeah, that's what
came of it. And I am really grateful that I
had that opportunity.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
How did the book take you?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
To the rite the core of it?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Probably eight weeks and then it took it took quite
a while to revise it. But I at the time,
I was also writing my dissertation, so I had to
It was very much crunch time. So wow, I was
writing my dissertation the day. At night, I'd write the
book as an excuse to you know, to relax. And
(05:08):
luckily I had the blessing of my wife. But she
definitely she definitely encouraged me, and luckily I had that
time that I was able to devote to it.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
That's amazing that she encouraged you. If you were doing
the book after, you know, other things on your mind
that you were working on. She allowed you. I shouldn't
I allowed you, but she understood that you had other
things you wanted to do to relax. Food has always
been a powerful symbol in cinema from your perspective, Why
does food resonate so strongly as a storytelling device on screen?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You know it's so easy because food is that one
thing that we do every day as we eat, and
we've been doing it for you know, the very first
organism has had to eat, right, Like it's it's so
core to our like existence really, like it's between life,
death and taxes, right, like these things just exist. No,
(06:04):
But you know, ultimately, you know, our entire physiology and
psychology is geared towards eating at least once in a day.
We do it three times a day luckily. But I
would say because of that bond that we have with
food and that that emotional relationship when we see it
(06:25):
on screen, I think it's so easy for us to
empathize and have sort of a connection to the characters
because it's it's you know it you grow up and
like some of our core memories is eating right, whether
it's the most disgusting thing and you just never want
to eat it ever again, or you know, like a
(06:47):
beautiful meal or even just a simple meal made by
you know, a parent, or you know, eating cereal in
the morning before school. I think there's so many different
inter connecting aspects that you know, they they resonate with
us at a level that many different things cannot.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
That's an excellent answer, especially what you said about how
food resonates with us, cereal before school and things like that.
I've never really thought about that, but while he was
saying those things, I thought about kind of you know,
I'm from a Jamaican background to some of the Jamaican
traditions in food that we would have on maybe a
Saturday afternoon, there would be a soup that we would
(07:25):
always have, would be you know, oxtel or lamb. So
if you were to or have you seen food in
a film where you thought, that is such an amazing
touch to move the story forward.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I was just thinking about this, and you know, the
the movie Pulp Fiction. I realized there were so many
different touching, you know, touch points where food actually was
an important factor in the story, where you know, there's
that scene where they get wrong at a at a
(08:02):
you know, it was like a breakfast diner, and I
just thought, like, yeah, that makes sense. There is this
sort of incongruency where you have this sort of violent
experience in a place where it's supposed to be safe,
like breakfast is safe. Right, Like, there's there's that distinction,
I would say, where you're able to create that tension,
(08:27):
right and like any everyone you know, at least at
least in western Western culture, like they know what a
diner is, right like, So like there's that there's that
shared experience. And then that's just one example. And then
there's there's another scene where they talk about they talk
about what is it the Royal cheese.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Versus like.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Right like, and that's like that's so that's such a
you know, we've seen that so often, right Like it's
it's sort of almost like a meme and and and culture.
I mean you think even the Simpsons they had like
they had an episode about that where they were making
fun of it, and yeah, I think that's that idea
of like we know what that is. Like you know,
(09:12):
you know so many people have had the experience of
like I've had a I've had a quarter pounder at
McDonald's or Royal Cheese or you know whatever version of
a hamburger that was so that to me is that
touching point. It's like but soone, it's so mundane. But
then you know, then you have these sort of like
continuing intersections of like oh, but then there's like these
(09:33):
violent moments.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Like you know, you know, it's it's it. And I
think it's a beautiful movie.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
You know, I really love it, and I think, yeah,
they've they've done a really good job sort of like
touching at that where like food actually became like an
interesting cornerstone.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And wine and beverages often carry cultural or emotional weighting movies.
Can you share an example of how drinks can shape storytelling,
both visually and symbolically.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So there's the beautiful scenes in Lost in Translation, and
I'm a bit of a Japanophile, so I have just
like this fondness for all things Japanese, and I love
that they they took you know, two people and they
just like threw them in this Japanese culture. And there's
that scene where Bill Murray is, you know, he has
(10:26):
he's trying to do a commercial, which is so meta, right,
Like they're like filming a they're filming a scene about him,
filming a scene, uh you know about sentory Uh? I
think it's Sentry whiskey. And you know the director is
like trying to explain to him in his broken English.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
He's like with.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Fashion, right, like with passion, with with with energy, and
you know, like the character Bill Murray's character is like,
what what are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Like?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
And so for I think for him, he's he doesn't
have that connection to you know, this Japanese whiskey. Right.
But then I remember, because of that scene, I started
reading about Century whisky whiskey and like the history and
like why that's so when essential and important to Japanese cuisine, right,
and like their their beautiful relationship with all things you know,
(11:20):
alcohol and distilled liquor. And I'm like, of course, like,
of course, this Bill Murray character, like from America, has
like no connection or relationship to this because you know,
the Japanese like it's.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Like so insular.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It's like there's no way you could tap into that
unless you were a part of cuisine and you And
the funny thing about all that is because of the whiskey,
the only reason why sentaury whiskey exists is because the
Japanese man, a chemist, went to the United States and
he he actually revolutionized like what was it he was
(11:58):
like living in Indiana or any he revolutionized American whiskey.
And then and then because of that that created relationship.
So to me, there's there's all these intersecting lines, and
when you start poling up the thread, like and it's
so simple. It was just this one scene, right, but
because of that, it like poked at this entire like
(12:19):
beautiful history.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I'm gonna have to watch the film again. I haven't
seen it in years. I haven't seen in years and years.
So what is it about Japanese culture that you like
so much? Is it the food at all? Or is
it that the whiskey? Maybe?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, you know, I would say definitely the food. They
have a philosophy, right, it's it's it's it's sort of
translates to balance, right, the idea that you know, all
these different tastes are are are equally important. Like you
can't you can't just be sweet, you can't just be bitter,
you can't just be you know, savory. It's all about
(12:55):
making sure there's harmony. Between each aspect, and in Vietnamese cuisine,
I'm getting me very there's a very similar ideology. But
I would say the Japanese I really honed it down
and really made uh sort of art form their food.
I mean, you know everyone knows sushi, right, like, oh,
like the old you know.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
It's like because it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Right, It's not just it doesn't just taste good, but
it's it's it's you know, it's visually visually appealing. And
you see that, right, like Hero Hero Dreams of Sushi. Right,
have you seen that documentary? Oh my gosh, please watch it.
It's it's a it's a visual it's a beautiful visual
(13:38):
experience because of like you you understart to understand, like
the effort and energy that's put into such simple things,
of like how he makes the sushi rice so simple
but so complex.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
At the end of the day, I completely understand what
you mean because I've worked in a sushi restaurant and
the hierarchy. Oh really yeah, and the whole who you know,
you start on the rice, the point of the chef
was telling me, But you'd have to buy your own
set of knives to move up in the kitchen, and
it was very I found it very different to working
(14:16):
in a typical English kitchen where you'd make something like
sausages and mashed potato, and it was anyone, just go
and do that. Look, this is the sausages, the potato.
And you didn't have the artistry and the and the
level of care in the restaurant. But yeah, as far
as I got was taking the fish out of the
freezer and giving it to a chef and I was
(14:38):
washing up.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
This is so I said I was.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I worked in this susy restaurant, but I was more
of an obserber than a chef, that's for sure. In
that restaurant.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
In that way, you had a tour of the experience.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Right, And you're working on the documentary you mentioned the
documentary before, and but you're working in a cinematographer called
Christopher Brannan. What drew you into filmmaking and what stories
are you helping to tell through this project?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Absolutely, I think I remember watching Have you seen the
series Chef's Table?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
No, I don't think I have.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
It's a documentary that explores food. It has a very
specific visual aesthetic, like you'll when you see it, you'll
like it's very clear what they're going for. It may
be a little heavy handed in some scenarios, but I
think it's it's good for sort of like you know,
your average your average viewer to.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Sort of get get kind of sucked in.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
But essentially they walk you through all these different cuisines
or like and and and from the from the perspective
of these these menstererful chefs, and like how they live
their life and sort of wrap their lifestyle around the food.
And and I you know, I'm I'm personally as a
food scientist, I'm not that deep. I'm not living with
(16:01):
like you know, like wheels of cheese, you know, in
my basement. That's not you know, I don't have like
a I a wine cellar or anything like that. But
it's it's this idea of like how do you connect
the history and like the experience of flavor, and how
do you present that in a way that's visual right
like this. I think it's so fascinating that you can
(16:22):
with filmmaking build that relationship and connection to the viewer
that you know, you would think, oh, it's food, like
how do you how would you even do that? Like,
no one's tasting anything but you know when I watch,
when I watch something that's so beautiful, like I'm like, yes,
like I know exactly what you're talking about, like, and
(16:44):
it it reminds me of like moments and time, even
as simple as like your first date, right, Like I
don't like get you know, having dinner right, Like it's
such a like what a trope? Right, Like how often
do you see that where like, you know, the story
wraps around this idea of like two people meeting and
then they're having dinner together, you know, in in Pretty
(17:07):
Woman for example, Like everyone always quotes like I'm shucking
the I'm shucking the.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
The clams or whatever, and it's just.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, like you you create, you create moments with people,
right And I think that that, to me is what
is really beautiful about cinematography. And my hope is that
I can at least like use it as a vehicle
for educating people. And my my, my whole shtick is
is about flavors. And that's what the documentary is about,
(17:38):
is about what is flavors and like how what's the
history of flavors and like how does that impact our
evolutions as humans? And and you know, Christopher Brandon is
is brilliant. Like I I just love watching people in
their where like I have no clue, you know, just
like just like masters that people of people being able
(18:01):
to do what they do so well. And I was
just so in in college and in high school, I really,
I really love. I was like a bit of a amateur
and I would love just like recording things. And I
would eventually connect with people who are film majors and
we would do like little fun skits and like commercials
(18:21):
for like small brands, and it.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Was it was just kind of fun.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Like it was just like it was what a what
a great way to like make a couple a couple
of bucks. But I I it always had an impact
on me, right like in this idea of yeah I
could I could do this, and like maybe one day
I would do it, And of course I got the
opportunity now, which is so amazing to me.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
And Christopher he.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Randomly reached out through email.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I guess he found my website and he there was
like two years ago and he said, you know, he
asked me this question about watermelon flavor, Like he was like,
what is watermelon flavor? And I didn't know who he was, right,
I just was like, oh, this is so random, and
so I just I just gave him my answer and
(19:10):
he was like that's a really good answer, like do
you are you interested in potentially doing a documentary with me?
And I was like, oh, like that's that's.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
A cool idea. And it kind of languished a little bit.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
We would talk back and forth, and we were hoping
at some point there was like a summer where because
he's a professor, so he teaches during the year, and
so he was like, hopefully I can get like a
little window of time we can do sort of a teaser.
That didn't happen because his the you know, his colleague
who's the cameraman. He he does HGTV, he does all
(19:46):
the like house renovations, and so his schedule was crazy
and so we never we never connected. And then so
I just was like, oh, that was just like a
one off and like that's probably never going to really happen.
My wife made a joke like maybe he was trying
to cat issue, like who is this, Like you just
met this guy on the internet, Like are you serious?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
How do you even know he's real?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
But you know, lo and behold, Like the following year,
he just made it happen.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
And at the moment, Yeah, there's a rise of food
documentaries on streaming platforms. How do you see the role
of science backed storytelling influence public perception on food and innovation?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I think, you know, that's that one thing that
you can always count on people is they really love
to watch something. I think it's the easiest way to
digest information. I think, you know, some of my colleagues
would probably say it's lazy. I think, like some people
think that reading is superior, but I actually don't think that.
I think it's just a different way of sobering information.
(20:49):
And my hope is that you know, there there are
there are more and more documentaries that sort of touch
on the science of things.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
But with an age death right, there's always there's always
going to be an agenda.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
I think at the end of the day, my hope
is that, you know, I think the discourse will move
towards more evidence base.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
But it's really hard.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I think science is not I don't think science is
as sexy as it used to be as when it
comes to you know, sort of documentary work. I think
people are afraid of science, and I think for good
reason that definitely. The world is changing significantly. You know,
we have all this artificial intelligence, and like, you know,
(21:33):
the COVID vaccine really showed like how divided people were
about you know, the impact of science on daily life.
And and I think that it's really challenging because you know,
there's certainly people who they don't want to hear it, right,
like they they've been turned off. And you know, I
don't know what it's like in the United Kingdom, but
certainly here in the United States, we've lost a significant
(21:56):
amount of funding for science. And I think the hope, yeah,
significant amount of funding like our our you know, our
main body of funding comes from either the National Science
Foundation or National Institute of Health, and I think their
budgets have been slashed maybe eighty ninety percent.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Oh so basically going.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
It's basically gone. And so there's all these all these
like talented folks who are just trying to scramble to
find a place to land. And I have people from
the USDA and FDA that just like complete these brilliant
minds just lost their positions, and so we have this
sort of talent drain that's happening. And my hope is
that my whope. My dream says is that we can
(22:41):
use scientific discourse through cinematography as a way to i
don't know, like leverage it to gain public support and
appreciation for the fact that like a lot of these
things are important, it's important to understand it. It's worth funding.
(23:02):
And I think that's that's that's the first part of
that conversation is, yeah, this is what it is.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Why why has there been these funding cuts?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's a that's an interesting topic.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I think it's it definitely Lands is in a lot
of trouble discussing. But no, no, no, no, I'm happy
to discuss it, you know, I think it's it's more
that Yeah, I mean my perspective has certainly been there's
no appreciation in understanding of you know, what science can
do and has done. I think it's mostly this sort
(23:40):
of idea that maybe that funding should go towards the military, right,
Like I mean, yeah, just like these huge geopolitical scenarios
like Ukraine and Russia, Israel versus Palestine, the US is
just pumping all that money into it, right, and so
where does that money have to come from?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
It comes from from you know, these.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Sort of public sector goods that again because they take
so long to have a return, it's hard to really
see the importance. And it's so sad because you start
to see the impact, like now we have fewer food
safety regulators and and say over over, yes, yes, and
(24:21):
so you start to see sort of uptick and recalls
and and and companies that you know, probably probably should
have been doing their due diligence not doing it. And
you know, and on the other hand, there's like these
bands on these like food ingredients that probably really don't
really move the needle very much like artificial food dies.
(24:44):
Like I think there's more importance that should be guarded
from maybe reducing the amount of sugar that we eat
or probably increasing the amount of fiber that we eat,
which has a lot like decades of research associated with it.
But of course we're going with the thing that makes
up maybe zero point zero five percent of the composition
(25:05):
and has very very little evidence of being having much
of an impact on our health. So it's it's it's
very political right now. It's really unfortunate. I think we
have to live in this reality where politics is part
of our part of the situation that we we live in.
(25:25):
But at the same time, I think there's there's a
way for, you know, public discourse to be shifted, and
I think one of that is through cinematography and through
filth and through all that.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
That's very interesting. I had no idea about any of that.
I do know for my wife. Since I do know,
I think I have an understanding from what I've read
that America has the largest army in the world by far,
So I didn't think more money needed to be put
into it, especially coming from the kind of fear food
(26:00):
industry background that you're suggesting. I also one of the
difference is a documentary your friend and I had in mind,
we weren't really being that series. We were in New York,
and there's certain things we see in terms of food
that we weren't used to.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Like.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
There was loads of advertisers, advertisements in the grocery store
that said, you know, these steaks are steroid free, but
in the UK there are no There were no steroids
in food in that way, so that was very kind
of eye opening. How do you feel about documentaries that
(26:39):
kind of highlight the illness in certain foods. There was
another documentary I watched and some of the fruit juice
drinks are not they don't actually have fruit juice in them,
so they call them like I'm making up a title
by something along the lines of red drink or orange
(26:59):
drink rather than saying orange juice.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You know, it's a it's an interesting scenario that we
live in.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I think because of all these sort of tools and
abilities that we have through technology, we're able to sort
of simulate beverages and flavors and that sort of thing.
And I think, I guess there's a time and place
for these things. But it's really unfortunate that now, you know,
kids have or ending of drinking all these things and
(27:28):
they're not they're not They're of no benefit, right, Like,
there's no reason to just sort of eat drink sugar. Yeah,
I I know, like for me, I grew up on
sugary drinks. I mean, I'm sure everyone did at some point,
lots of candy and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
And I don't love that. I don't love that.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
You know, at the end of the day, now that
I'm thirty thirty five, I've had to I have to
work really hard to sort of, you know, change my habits.
It's just, you know, it's so hard. It's just so
hard and so like, at the end of the day,
I think it's just gonna end up being this situation
(28:08):
where you know, we we have all these different foods
and we don't really know what the impact is going
to be, right Like, like I think the the truly
industrialized food system that we have has only been around
for maybe one hundred years. But it's it's it's creating
(28:30):
situations that we we have never known before. And what
does that mean for the next one hundred two hundred years?
How's that going to change our biology? How's that going
to change? Like, you know, not just our health, but
you know, intrinsically, we're still evolving beings. Like if you
if you look back on the history of things, and
this is this is one of my premises, is like
(28:52):
human beings have you know, changed their environment for millions
of years and in with the invention of fire and
cooking something so simple, but we take you for granted.
If you look at the history, you see that biologically
we've had to evolve and adapt to that. Like our
stomachs have become shorter, you know, our our the micro
(29:17):
organisms that live in our gut has have to like
change and adapt to that.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Actually it's crazy that and and and it's because cook
food doesn't actually exist in nature, like, no organism, no species,
like controls fire in such such a such a such
a way. And we really do take for granted the
fact that this is the fundamental technology, like this is
(29:45):
what allowed humans to stop spending all day hunting and
gathering because you know, now you have clean you have,
you know, food that's safe to eat because you've killed
all the parasites.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
It's easier digest and so and so forth.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
So yeah, I guess the long story short with that
is we're always we're we can't put the technology back
in it, right, We've opened Pandora's box. Right, But so
the question is like, how are you going to do
it responsibly? How are we going to do it in
such a way that actually is positive for society? And
(30:23):
I don't have the answer for that, but I think
that's that's kind of the fundamental question that we have
when you're talking about things like orange drink or red drink.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah, it's funny, you said, I'm sure. Only last week
is watching a documentary, a different documentary, and I found
out that lions can't actually digest cooked food.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
They were out in the wild and it's not something
they can do. And I thought, oh, because I just
assumed the cats, you know, when I've had cats before
and a speach of chicken or pork left over whatever,
put it in their bowl, that eat it. But they
obviously evolved with human beings.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Exactly, exactly right, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
They've they've they've come along for the ride and.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
The and the treats. But you've worked with plant based
and alternative protein companies. How do you see storytelling shape
in the future of this movement, both in media and
in consumer trends.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I think a lot of it has to do with
connecting people to the understanding of what it is. I
think there's a lot of buzzwords. There's a lot of
terms that are thrown around and and and unfortunately there's
this makes me look like I have a tinfoil. But
there is actual little research on this that suggests that
(31:43):
the animal industry has put a lot of money into
marketing against it. Right, So there's there's sort of like
this coercion into like saying like oh, it's it's unhealthy,
and it's you know, it's a problem, and so on
and so forth, we won't get into that. I think
it's a very it's a very big problem. But anyway,
(32:05):
the point is, I think on the opposite end is
sort of helping people understand what it is and why
we are trying to do this making plant based products
and then making you know, cell based products.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Like, I think.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
It's gonna be very hard. It's a very big uphill
battle as far as sharing this information with people, and
I think part of that will be how do we
how do we tell the story visually in a way
that's impactful and emotionally meaningful. And I think that unfortunately,
you know, these in these sort of like smaller sectors
(32:46):
of the industry haven't done a very good dress of
doing that. I think I think it's too much like
it's science right like, or it's like it's technology based,
and I think they've leaned too far into that world
of well, what if it's orange drink? Whe if it's
red right like, you know, are we creating something that
is actually really unhealthy for people? Because the connotation people
(33:10):
do not want like anyone mucking with their food and
for good reason, right like, we've done pretty well for
like eating the kinds of foods that we have for
the last couple of thousands of years. But you know,
I think it's also important to acknowledge innovation and change,
especially as it pertains to, you know, sort of the
(33:30):
survival of our species.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
And over here in the UK we've had shows like
Hell's Kitchen, and when I was a kid, there was
a great show by a lady called Rusty Lee and
she would cook Westinged meals for the whole the United
Kingdom to admire and enjoy A hope. Are there any
particular shows you enjoy watching based around cooking and ones
(33:52):
that you think are actually scientifically correct, you.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Know, not so much scientifically correct, but I really like
what is that what is that show called, you know,
the bake Off break British Breakoff. Yeah, I love that show.
And I think it's because, you know, there's something it's
(34:17):
just kind of nice to just see like all that
happening in front of you. I mean, obviously it's it's
a show, so there's it's curated. You're not gonna see everything,
but there's there there's something interesting about the process. Like
I think baking is very much amendable for this. I
think cooking is a little more like I don't know,
(34:38):
it's like it's kind of like shoot from the hip.
I think baking requires so much precision and the process,
like you see very quickly what happens when you do
not proof something along time, right, Like there's an exact
nature to it, and I think it's a lot closer
to a science than than than than than you know,
(34:59):
just sort of a experience. So that's why I really
like it. I really like seeing like you really do
have to take these steps seriously because there is a
science behind it, Like if you're making a croissant or
if you're making you know, something that's you know, very flaked,
Like there is precision to the idea of like you
do have to get the butter in there in such
(35:20):
a way that it creates layers, because otherwise that that
that chemical process that occurs during making doesn't occur.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
It just can't.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, So it's that's that's what that's what it really
interests me.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
And you mentioned earlier before about moments around food in
your life growing up, whether it be cereal, be for school,
or various other times when you would remember and enjoy food.
Was there a show you would watch with your family
when you was a kid growing up, we would all
eat dinner at the same time or have a special
meal around that time of day.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You know, it's sad. I actually didn't get a lot
of meals with my family. I actually a lot of times. No,
I mean, that's just it was the nature of it.
I think my mom and dad were very busy. They
were running up business. My sister wasn't around that often.
I think she just had a lot of friends and
was their social So I actually ended up eating dinner
(36:15):
a lot by myself. But you know, to that point,
one of the things I really loved watching growing up
while I was eating was The Simpsons. I think you
know that that was a very which is ironic because
it's like I was watching a family right like, and
it was it was comforting in a lot of ways
(36:36):
because you know, it's just you're laughing, it's funny and like.
So there's a lot of positive memories of even like
even if I was you know, I had sort of
like leftover meals, I still I still think of them
really fondly. And I think there's a lot of research
and experience that shows that when you're when you're eating
and you're you're having a good time, you create sort
(36:57):
of those neural networks of you know, between your brain
and your gut, and there's that sort of experience of
you know that that's sort of seered into you, especially
as you're growing older, right like in your childhood. It's
just so it's so valuable and your brain is so
easy to sort of impact an influence.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
And as a food consultant, a lot of the people
listening to this podcast, the filmmakers themselves, they would always
want to have good food on set and ready and
available for the cast and crews. What type of advice
would you give people who are looking to get better food,
healthier food, and tastier food rather than maybe ordering pizzas
(37:40):
or junk food around the corner from the set.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Sure, I think, I mean, if it's ever possible. I
think fruits and vegetables, like getting more fruits and vegetables
are such such a you know, it's so important. But
I think what's really hard is that as we've moved
more towards industrialization, and we've lost a lot of the
nutrients in the fruits.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
And vegetables themselves.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
So I mean you really have to sort of get
sort of a premium type at that in this sort
of day and eight, uh, you know, and then you know,
more and more whole greens. I think, more foods with
more whole greens. It's possible. You know, I'm not a nutritionist,
so I'm not gonna, you know, pretend I know the
whole science of nutrition. But certainly what I've I've found
(38:25):
is that you know, you know, certainly lean meats would
be better than than than you know, pupparoni for example, right,
Like it's you know, there's a there's something like simplicity.
I think simplicity is a huge one to consider. And
that's why and that's actually why I really like Japanese
food is because of its simplicity and and and sort
of they do sort of tend towards more like rawdness
(38:47):
in terms of the dietary conditions. That's that's maybe eat
more sushi every day, I had like three specific meals. Uh.
And so I think like a life shot of me
just like sitting on a rock eating like oatmeal with
(39:07):
like added protein would be like you know that that's
like quintessential In my head, I'm like, yeah, I did
that so often. I think it's like almost a you know,
a mental meme and then you know, and then during uh,
during lunchtime, I made like these these sort of tuna
tuna sandwiches or I make like peanut butter sandwiches, but
(39:28):
I have to eat like six of them, right because
I was like I needed like four thousand calories. So
I was just like eating so much. So, you know,
and I think at the end of the day, if
if I have myself to some ways like so like
(39:52):
you know, all these like they're very strong memories for
me and so like, and I'm always constantly eating like nuts,
that was like a big so I think a lot
of it was like trying to try to always have
something that was shelf stable, which is really hard. That's
also not like chalk full of sugar or you know,
full of salt. Like I really needed a lot of
(40:13):
protein for my legs, and I needed a lot of
like slow burning carbohydrates, and that's where the oatmeal came in.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
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(42:30):
Good Food Institution, you co authored a seventy five page
analysts on turning crop side streams into alternative crotine inputs.
If we filmed that waste of value pipeline which sets
eg stabilizing brewers spent grain making so hydrates for media
are the most cinematic and what misconceptions would you want
(42:52):
to do?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I think would be really cool. It would be like a.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Ah, you know, sort of like a shot of like
what do you call it where you know it's like
a time course. This is like my scientific word for it,
but basically like you know, over the course of several
months like watching like growing mushrooms on this side stream
and like watching them grow.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
I think that would be really cool.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
I think that's like a really effective way and means
of showing like, yeah, this is like a biological way
of like transforming all this waste into real food. And
I think, yeah, I've been meaning to do something like that.
I grow mushrooms myself and I try to use a
lot of you know, waste products to make them. And
(43:43):
it's a lot of fun. And there is actually a
shot of me like putting it all together, but there's
no shot of me like actually watching the mushrooms grow,
So that that would be cool to include.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
When you say watching the mushrooms grow, a part of
me thinks that you might be thinking about a time.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Maps in in a lab setting, the term is time
course that I just like forgot time laps time ops. Yes,
that's correct.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
And why mushrooms in particular.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Well, they're so versatile and they have the you know,
if you if.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
You were to remove all their water, they are really.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
High proteins and I think it's about twenty percent and
they basically can consume literally anything when it comes to
biological byproducts. They're pretty not fussy. Now they do get
they do get molds, and they do get and you know,
contamination that sort of thing. But if you do a
great job at like doing the process, like anyone can
(44:43):
really do it. Like it's not something that you need
like a bower reactor for or like you know, you
don't need like a giant like pieces of machinery or
scientific equivalent to do like it can be done, and
it's very it's it's something that I think it's sort
of missing and serve of our in our culture, in
(45:03):
the Western culture because I think there's not as much
mushroom consumption, but if you look in Chinese culture, it's huge.
It makes it's like a huge percentage of their you know,
dietary input. And there's a lot of benefits to mushrooms
as far as like gastro intestinal inflammatory, you know, there's
there's all sorts of these health benefits that's kind of
(45:24):
missing and and sort of Western cuisine because of that.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Okay, I do like mushroom, let's say, but in film
for example, for full disclosure, because it's audio only this podcast,
I'm wearing.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
It's the true, the true mushroom connoisseur, right, the og
plus one.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Exactly. Super Mario Mario himself loved mushrooms. Do you think
thought of the benefits to mushrooms that made them decide
that mushrooms could be a big thing in super Mariobra
of us.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I hate to de pend
this way only because you know, it's something that's been
on my mind. But certainly, you know, you know, psilocybin
and psychedelic mushrooms are very large. You know, it's it's
if you look at the statistics, is actually one of
the most consumed psychedelic compounds, and and there's this lot
(46:24):
of history actually if you look in human evolution of
the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms in order to sort of
like improve our connections with one another, and there's a
lot of spiritual aspects associated with it. If you look
at like Egyptian iconography, if you look at you know,
certain Greek iconography, you can start to see like there
(46:45):
are there was like a sort of consumption of psychedelic
mushrooms and the certainly you know nowadays, there there's a
lot of studies and and sort of understanding of oh,
like they actually do benefits in terms of combatting depression
or dealing with anxiety or you know, there's there's a
(47:05):
lot of mental health research.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
But because they are Schedule.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
One in the United States, there's Schedule one substances, which
means that they're the highest level of criminalization that has
resulted in in you know, a severe restriction on their use.
And you know, I'm not I'm not here to say like, oh,
recreational drug uses is a good thing, but certainly I
(47:29):
think there are there are benefits to having sort of
a lower restriction for for those types of compounds, simply
because the you can, the research literature is very strong
in terms of demonstrating that as long as you pair
it with you know, other experiences like therapy or you know,
(47:50):
with with you know, sort of group work and that
sort of thing. There's there's a lot of ways that
trauma and and and you know, you know, negative of
experiences of past can sort of be metabolized in that way.
And so I know, you know, the original like Japanese
game designers had that in mind. I don't know if
(48:11):
they're just like there's mushrooms in Italian cuisine, right, but like,
you know, there's there's always these tropes of like, you know,
what is what is Mario doing? Like in you know,
the plumbing and like why is he like in this
like weird world and there's all these mushrooms enemies are
not you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Yeah, and you've appeared on Dutch TV. What did that experience?
Teacher about pacing voice over and fact checking when translating
complex food science claims that LCA or new trade offs
into type watchable segments.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, I mean, luckily that particular segment was about fish sauce,
and I'm obsessed with fish sauce, so I sort of
already had like a very strong large knowledge base as
far as when it comes to fish sauce specifically, so
I didn't I did have to dig too deep, but
I definitely pulled in like textbooks as as like horror references,
(49:12):
just so that I wasn't just making stuff off the bat.
They're making stuff up. And it was nice because I
was able to contribute both on sort of like the
initial research side of oh, like what do you what?
What is fish slaws? How has it made? And so
and so forth, and they had to sort of use
that as fact checking, but also when I did the
voice over itself. It was nice to know like I
(49:34):
already had that knowledge coming in and you know, making
sure that I had the audience in mind and thought
about like, oh, how would they how would they hear
a conversation?
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Right?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Like That's that's largely how I speak in sort of
digital settings, is I can I get more of a
conversation rather than like, I really don't like to work
with scripts, and probably at some point that's going to
bite me, but I try to basically just like go
with the flow as much as I can, because I
(50:07):
think ultimately, I think people can tell like unless you're
a really good actor, and that's that's already what you
do is to read scripts and know how to translate that.
For someone like me, I'm just a sort of like
a talk to head, so it's a lot easier for
me to just be expressive and share information off the cuff.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
You know what I'm saying, Fish sauce, why are you
obsessed with it? And tell us more about it? Because
for myself in England we have fish and chips as
I think that the world knows, but the only source
that would really come with that is talk top.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Did you know that Workshire I can never say it
is Workshire. Shire sauce is fish sauce. The one of
the most important ingredients to that is anthrovies. So they
trick you because when it was first when it was
first invented back in the I think late eighteen hundreds,
some chemists like they had some you know, malt vinegar
(51:09):
that they needed to dispose of, and they just decided
they're own some pantrovies in it. I don't know why
that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Like
I actually I find that the invention of a lot
of food food condiments like ketch up and that sort
of thing they're mestered is like really bizarre. But anyway,
they just kind of act like they just there's some
(51:31):
fish in there, and let sit for like and they
forgot about for like three years. They just like left
it and then they tried it and they were like, oh,
this is amazing, let's make more. Like what I don't like,
I don't know how people come up with this stuff.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
So when you go with that television to give a
voice over in Disgusting, what is the process like from
the studio the production point of view for you are
you in a room alone, are you with other people
directing you give the voice?
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Ova?
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Well, what happened was that they had wanted to do
recording all semi live. I mean, it wasn't live in
the sense that they they they didn't like air it live,
but they wanted me to actually say the words while
they were doing the skit or the production. So what
(52:17):
they did is they they literally called me and then
they went into the whole you know, the whole bit.
So it wasn't it wasn't like segment. They didn't just
like have me record and then send it to them
and then they cut it up. They literally just talked
to me and then that was that exact segment is
what they what they aired.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
So it was interesting. I mean, I think that made
it a lot.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Easier to to not make it feel i don't know,
kind of a stiff, and then it kind of just
gave a lot more personality to the experience. But it
was interesting because I had to like, I had to
be like, yes, this is this is our time when
like we're doing it and it can't we can't like
move it. It's like that's that's when when that particular
(53:03):
person is available to make that shoot so and then
of course it's in the Netherlands right like, so they're
in the letter lands that I'm in the US, so
like we have to coordinate time zones too. So I
found it very fascinating like that there's just like international
collaboration of sorts.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
And lastly, if the Good Food Institute funded a short
companion piece to your duck, what's the single sends you
and insist on capturing to public trust?
Speaker 2 (53:31):
Man, you know, I think it would be really cool
if they could do a video of people eating cell
based meat or like lab grown meat. I think a
lot of people think it comes out of like you know,
like a refinery or something. But like the way it
(53:53):
looks is like it looks like food, and it really
does look like meat. So and I've see you know,
I haven't tried it myself, which is unfortunate, you know, situated.
I would like to eventually, but yeah, I mean, like
when I see photos and that sort of thing, I'm like, well,
where's the videos, you know, Like where's like people actually
(54:15):
eating and like enjoying and having conversation. I think that's
an important piece that I wonder if you know, they
sort of don't realize is this critical for sort of
cultural mass of like can we introduce Oh, that'd be great,
Like can we introduce this into like sort of movies.
Can we introduce it into like you know, television. Can
we induce it in things that like people see as
(54:36):
culturally relevant? Because I feel like that that becomes it
becomes like canonical for humans to like now eat once
it's it's sort of seen, there's some there's some power
to it. There's some power about media that allows you know,
easy introduction. I mean think that's that's I think that's
what commercials are. Like commercials have taking advantages for like decades.
(54:59):
Is like like you know, show people eating, show people
having good time, blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
It's like, yeah, even the freaking pharmaceutical.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Companies are like you know, oh, you know, now Mary
at the age of sixty can like finally bike or
you know, because now she doesn't have hemorrhoids. Like it's
like it's that simple. I think I really do think
it's that simple, which is like show people actually enjoying
this stuff, because I think that's the missing component. So
I'm really glad you brought that up because so often
(55:30):
I feel like it's it's sort of just thrust it
on you, Like these sort of like food ideas that like, oh,
the people will just accept them because they're sustainable or
you know, they're not necessarily healthier, but they probably have
more like they're safer to produce. But like people don't
care about that. I mean, I barely care about that,
(55:53):
and I'm a food seat. I care about like, are
people having good time? And I'm like, does it taste good? Like?
And it's true, you have to be honest about that,
and you know, be able to show that in media.
I think it's so powerful, so powerful.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
That was my conversation with Brian, doctor Brian Quockley, and
honestly it's the kind of chat that stays with you
long after it ends. His book one hundred and fifty
Science Questions Answered has so many pages that jump out
at you. Take the one about putting hot food in
the fridge. I grew up here in you should let
it call first. It turns out that's not always the
(56:34):
safest advice. Brian explains why, and suddenly you're rethinking something
you've done your whole life. Then there's raw milk, which
some people swear By. But when Brian lays out the science,
you start to see the risks hiding in plain sight.
And I've got to mention this. I'm literally on my
way to pick up some fish sauce after this recording,
(56:57):
And like everyone else, I've asked myself, live in the
cupboard or do I need to clear fridge base for it.
Brian's section on Sawyer and fish sauces nails that question
with the kind of clarity you wish every label had.
But the bit that really brought me back was his
take on the canned and frozen foods. In college, canned
(57:20):
food was survival. It was about being creative, stretching meals
and saving a buck or two. But I'll be honest,
I never thought much about the nutrition back then. It
was about getting through the week. Reading Brian's explanation that
canned and frozen can hold onto nutrients, sometimes even better
(57:41):
than the fresh. What ties it all together for me
is how Brian writes these entries like little short films.
Each page has a setup, tension, and resolution. It's storytelling
in science, in food, and in the way we live
day to day. And when you think about his work
on the food matrix you see. It's no accident. Brian
(58:06):
understands that science and film aren't that different. Both are
about clarity, pacing, and pulling your audience into a story
they'll remember. So that's what I'll leave you with today.
Whether you're a filmmaker, a student, eating canned food on
a budget, or just someone staring at a bottle of
(58:26):
fish sauce in the supermarket or grocery store, Brian's work
reminds us that curiosity and storytelling connect us all. Please
go to the show notes to find a link to
buy Brian's book. It's one for everyone's bookshelf. Thanks for
listening to Filmmaking Conversations with Damie Swaley. If you enjoy
this episode, subscribe it, share it, and please do leave
(58:49):
a comment on the comment section on Apple Podcast.
You are listening to the IFH podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to
ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Welcome to Filmmaking Conversations with Me, your host Damian Swabey.
Today we're stepping into the world of food science and
storytelling with someone whose journey is as cinematic as any
film we've talked about on this show. My guest is
Dr Brian Quockley, a food scientist, consultant, and author of
the brilliant book one hundred and fifty Food Science Questions Answered.
(00:37):
Brian's book is full of sharp, memorable pages that are
structured like perfect short films. Each one poses a question,
should hot food go straight into the fridge? Is raw
milk safe? Do sawyer sauce and fish sauce really need refrigerating?
Do frozen vegetables lose nutrients? And then delivers science, context
(00:58):
and a practical takeaway, simple, clear and powerful, And Brian
himself his life is a narrative worth filming. He once
walked two thousand miles across America, surviving on the same
meals every day, obsessing over a single question what makes
food taste good? That obsession led him from Stanford to
(01:21):
a PhD, from writing to consulting for some of the
most innovative food startups, to working with Emmy winning filmmakers
on the documentary The Food Matrix. This episode is more
than food. It's about the overlap between science, creativity, and
media and how a well told story, whether on screen
(01:43):
or on the page, can change the way we see
the world. Stay tuned because Brian's journey is proof that
curiosity can lead you anywhere, even from the lab to
the lens.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I ended up studying chemistry as a as an undergraduate,
and then I moved on at some point to studying
food science and with my PhD, and and during that time,
I think I've kind of had this very enjoyable pension
for like learning about the very minute details about food,
(02:20):
right like just all the little aspects and details, but
more so how it impacts culture. I think that was
that was actually more things got really interesting because I
come in with a science background, but I realized how
important food was in all different ways, especially interacting with
people in social groups, and it really connects us. And
(02:43):
so since since graduating in twenty twenty with my PhD,
I've started a consulting business. The last five years I've
been That's what I've been doing. And you know, part
of that's really just to fuel my you know, obsession
with food.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You know, it allows me to.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Paying the bills and sometimes you know, I put it
on the company tap to say, you know, this delicious
gourmet meal is for my own learning, you know. But yeah,
I think a lot of it is just you know,
just raw curiosity, right like I just forever curious.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
About why do we why do we enjoy what we.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Like to eat, you know, and how does that how
does that play out in all different aspects including you know,
from from what started out with you know, science communication
ended up being you know, more of discovery and how
it impacts media and impacts you know, our way of
interacting in the world.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And your book, one hundred and fifty Food Science Questions Answered,
has reached a wide audience. What inspired you to write
it and what do you hope readers will take away?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Desperation. I needed money. I got very lucky. Actually a
public sure reached out because I was I was writing
a blog for a nonprofit and I was writing all
these articles about food, and they you know, I got
sort of the inside, look at how to basically write
(04:14):
better articles. Right. So over over several years of doing that,
eventually this publisher found my found my work and they said,
do you want to write a book about food science?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I was like absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
They definitely lowballed me, and I had no what could
I do as a graduate student, And I figured, you know,
some money was better than no money, So you know,
I gave it a shot, and uh, yeah, that's what
came of it. And I am really grateful that I
had that opportunity.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
How did the book take you?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
To the rite the core of it?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Probably eight weeks and then it took it took quite
a while to revise it. But I at the time,
I was also writing my dissertation, so I had to
It was very much crunch time. So wow, I was
writing my dissertation the day. At night, I'd write the
book as an excuse to you know, to relax. And
(05:08):
luckily I had the blessing of my wife. But she
definitely she definitely encouraged me, and luckily I had that
time that I was able to devote to it.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
That's amazing that she encouraged you. If you were doing
the book after, you know, other things on your mind
that you were working on. She allowed you. I shouldn't
I allowed you, but she understood that you had other
things you wanted to do to relax. Food has always
been a powerful symbol in cinema from your perspective, Why
does food resonate so strongly as a storytelling device on screen?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You know it's so easy because food is that one
thing that we do every day as we eat, and
we've been doing it for you know, the very first
organism has had to eat, right, Like it's it's so
core to our like existence really, like it's between life,
death and taxes, right, like these things just exist. No,
(06:04):
But you know, ultimately, you know, our entire physiology and
psychology is geared towards eating at least once in a day.
We do it three times a day luckily. But I
would say because of that bond that we have with
food and that that emotional relationship when we see it
(06:25):
on screen, I think it's so easy for us to
empathize and have sort of a connection to the characters
because it's it's you know it you grow up and
like some of our core memories is eating right, whether
it's the most disgusting thing and you just never want
to eat it ever again, or you know, like a
(06:47):
beautiful meal or even just a simple meal made by
you know, a parent, or you know, eating cereal in
the morning before school. I think there's so many different
inter connecting aspects that you know, they they resonate with
us at a level that many different things cannot.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
That's an excellent answer, especially what you said about how
food resonates with us, cereal before school and things like that.
I've never really thought about that, but while he was
saying those things, I thought about kind of you know,
I'm from a Jamaican background to some of the Jamaican
traditions in food that we would have on maybe a
Saturday afternoon, there would be a soup that we would
(07:25):
always have, would be you know, oxtel or lamb. So
if you were to or have you seen food in
a film where you thought, that is such an amazing
touch to move the story forward.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I was just thinking about this, and you know, the
the movie Pulp Fiction. I realized there were so many
different touching, you know, touch points where food actually was
an important factor in the story, where you know, there's
that scene where they get wrong at a at a
(08:02):
you know, it was like a breakfast diner, and I
just thought, like, yeah, that makes sense. There is this
sort of incongruency where you have this sort of violent
experience in a place where it's supposed to be safe,
like breakfast is safe. Right, Like, there's there's that distinction,
I would say, where you're able to create that tension,
(08:27):
right and like any everyone you know, at least at
least in western Western culture, like they know what a
diner is, right like, So like there's that there's that
shared experience. And then that's just one example. And then
there's there's another scene where they talk about they talk
about what is it the Royal cheese.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Versus like.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Right like, and that's like that's so that's such a
you know, we've seen that so often, right Like it's
it's sort of almost like a meme and and and culture.
I mean you think even the Simpsons they had like
they had an episode about that where they were making
fun of it, and yeah, I think that's that idea
of like we know what that is. Like you know,
(09:12):
you know so many people have had the experience of
like I've had a I've had a quarter pounder at
McDonald's or Royal Cheese or you know whatever version of
a hamburger that was so that to me is that
touching point. It's like but soone, it's so mundane. But
then you know, then you have these sort of like
continuing intersections of like oh, but then there's like these
(09:33):
violent moments.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Like you know, you know, it's it's it. And I
think it's a beautiful movie.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
You know, I really love it, and I think, yeah,
they've they've done a really good job sort of like
touching at that where like food actually became like an
interesting cornerstone.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And wine and beverages often carry cultural or emotional weighting movies.
Can you share an example of how drinks can shape storytelling,
both visually and symbolically.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So there's the beautiful scenes in Lost in Translation, and
I'm a bit of a Japanophile, so I have just
like this fondness for all things Japanese, and I love
that they they took you know, two people and they
just like threw them in this Japanese culture. And there's
that scene where Bill Murray is, you know, he has
(10:26):
he's trying to do a commercial, which is so meta, right,
Like they're like filming a they're filming a scene about him,
filming a scene, uh you know about sentory Uh? I
think it's Sentry whiskey. And you know the director is
like trying to explain to him in his broken English.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
He's like with.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Fashion, right, like with passion, with with with energy, and
you know, like the character Bill Murray's character is like,
what what are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Like?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
And so for I think for him, he's he doesn't
have that connection to you know, this Japanese whiskey. Right.
But then I remember, because of that scene, I started
reading about Century whisky whiskey and like the history and
like why that's so when essential and important to Japanese cuisine, right,
and like their their beautiful relationship with all things you know,
(11:20):
alcohol and distilled liquor. And I'm like, of course, like,
of course, this Bill Murray character, like from America, has
like no connection or relationship to this because you know,
the Japanese like it's.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Like so insular.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It's like there's no way you could tap into that
unless you were a part of cuisine and you And
the funny thing about all that is because of the whiskey,
the only reason why sentaury whiskey exists is because the
Japanese man, a chemist, went to the United States and
he he actually revolutionized like what was it he was
(11:58):
like living in Indiana or any he revolutionized American whiskey.
And then and then because of that that created relationship.
So to me, there's there's all these intersecting lines, and
when you start poling up the thread, like and it's
so simple. It was just this one scene, right, but
because of that, it like poked at this entire like
(12:19):
beautiful history.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I'm gonna have to watch the film again. I haven't
seen it in years. I haven't seen in years and years.
So what is it about Japanese culture that you like
so much? Is it the food at all? Or is
it that the whiskey? Maybe?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, you know, I would say definitely the food. They
have a philosophy, right, it's it's it's it's sort of
translates to balance, right, the idea that you know, all
these different tastes are are are equally important. Like you
can't you can't just be sweet, you can't just be bitter,
you can't just be you know, savory. It's all about
(12:55):
making sure there's harmony. Between each aspect, and in Vietnamese cuisine,
I'm getting me very there's a very similar ideology. But
I would say the Japanese I really honed it down
and really made uh sort of art form their food.
I mean, you know everyone knows sushi, right, like, oh,
like the old you know.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
It's like because it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Right, It's not just it doesn't just taste good, but
it's it's it's you know, it's visually visually appealing. And
you see that, right, like Hero Hero Dreams of Sushi. Right,
have you seen that documentary? Oh my gosh, please watch it.
It's it's a it's a visual it's a beautiful visual
(13:38):
experience because of like you you understart to understand, like
the effort and energy that's put into such simple things,
of like how he makes the sushi rice so simple
but so complex.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
At the end of the day, I completely understand what
you mean because I've worked in a sushi restaurant and
the hierarchy. Oh really yeah, and the whole who you know,
you start on the rice, the point of the chef
was telling me, But you'd have to buy your own
set of knives to move up in the kitchen, and
it was very I found it very different to working
(14:16):
in a typical English kitchen where you'd make something like
sausages and mashed potato, and it was anyone, just go
and do that. Look, this is the sausages, the potato.
And you didn't have the artistry and the and the
level of care in the restaurant. But yeah, as far
as I got was taking the fish out of the
freezer and giving it to a chef and I was
(14:38):
washing up.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
This is so I said I was.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I worked in this susy restaurant, but I was more
of an obserber than a chef, that's for sure. In
that restaurant.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
In that way, you had a tour of the experience.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Right, And you're working on the documentary you mentioned the
documentary before, and but you're working in a cinematographer called
Christopher Brannan. What drew you into filmmaking and what stories
are you helping to tell through this project?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Absolutely, I think I remember watching Have you seen the
series Chef's Table?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
No, I don't think I have.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
It's a documentary that explores food. It has a very
specific visual aesthetic, like you'll when you see it, you'll
like it's very clear what they're going for. It may
be a little heavy handed in some scenarios, but I
think it's it's good for sort of like you know,
your average your average viewer to.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Sort of get get kind of sucked in.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
But essentially they walk you through all these different cuisines
or like and and and from the from the perspective
of these these menstererful chefs, and like how they live
their life and sort of wrap their lifestyle around the food.
And and I you know, I'm I'm personally as a
food scientist, I'm not that deep. I'm not living with
(16:01):
like you know, like wheels of cheese, you know, in
my basement. That's not you know, I don't have like
a I a wine cellar or anything like that. But
it's it's this idea of like how do you connect
the history and like the experience of flavor, and how
do you present that in a way that's visual right
like this. I think it's so fascinating that you can
(16:22):
with filmmaking build that relationship and connection to the viewer
that you know, you would think, oh, it's food, like
how do you how would you even do that? Like,
no one's tasting anything but you know when I watch,
when I watch something that's so beautiful, like I'm like, yes,
like I know exactly what you're talking about, like, and
(16:44):
it it reminds me of like moments and time, even
as simple as like your first date, right, Like I
don't like get you know, having dinner right, Like it's
such a like what a trope? Right, Like how often
do you see that where like, you know, the story
wraps around this idea of like two people meeting and
then they're having dinner together, you know, in in Pretty
(17:07):
Woman for example, Like everyone always quotes like I'm shucking
the I'm shucking the.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
The clams or whatever, and it's just.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, like you you create, you create moments with people,
right And I think that that, to me is what
is really beautiful about cinematography. And my hope is that
I can at least like use it as a vehicle
for educating people. And my my, my whole shtick is
is about flavors. And that's what the documentary is about,
(17:38):
is about what is flavors and like how what's the
history of flavors and like how does that impact our
evolutions as humans? And and you know, Christopher Brandon is
is brilliant. Like I I just love watching people in
their where like I have no clue, you know, just
like just like masters that people of people being able
(18:01):
to do what they do so well. And I was
just so in in college and in high school, I really,
I really love. I was like a bit of a amateur
and I would love just like recording things. And I
would eventually connect with people who are film majors and
we would do like little fun skits and like commercials
(18:21):
for like small brands, and it.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Was it was just kind of fun.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Like it was just like it was what a what
a great way to like make a couple a couple
of bucks. But I I it always had an impact
on me, right like in this idea of yeah I
could I could do this, and like maybe one day
I would do it, And of course I got the
opportunity now, which is so amazing to me.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
And Christopher he.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Randomly reached out through email.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I guess he found my website and he there was
like two years ago and he said, you know, he
asked me this question about watermelon flavor, Like he was like,
what is watermelon flavor? And I didn't know who he was, right,
I just was like, oh, this is so random, and
so I just I just gave him my answer and
(19:10):
he was like that's a really good answer, like do
you are you interested in potentially doing a documentary with me?
And I was like, oh, like that's that's.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
A cool idea. And it kind of languished a little bit.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
We would talk back and forth, and we were hoping
at some point there was like a summer where because
he's a professor, so he teaches during the year, and
so he was like, hopefully I can get like a
little window of time we can do sort of a teaser.
That didn't happen because his the you know, his colleague
who's the cameraman. He he does HGTV, he does all
(19:46):
the like house renovations, and so his schedule was crazy
and so we never we never connected. And then so
I just was like, oh, that was just like a
one off and like that's probably never going to really happen.
My wife made a joke like maybe he was trying
to cat issue, like who is this, Like you just
met this guy on the internet, Like are you serious?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
How do you even know he's real?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
But you know, lo and behold, Like the following year,
he just made it happen.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
And at the moment, Yeah, there's a rise of food
documentaries on streaming platforms. How do you see the role
of science backed storytelling influence public perception on food and innovation?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I think, you know, that's that one thing that
you can always count on people is they really love
to watch something. I think it's the easiest way to
digest information. I think, you know, some of my colleagues
would probably say it's lazy. I think, like some people
think that reading is superior, but I actually don't think that.
I think it's just a different way of sobering information.
(20:49):
And my hope is that you know, there there are
there are more and more documentaries that sort of touch
on the science of things.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
But with an age death right, there's always there's always
going to be an agenda.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
I think at the end of the day, my hope
is that, you know, I think the discourse will move
towards more evidence base.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
But it's really hard.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I think science is not I don't think science is
as sexy as it used to be as when it
comes to you know, sort of documentary work. I think
people are afraid of science, and I think for good
reason that definitely. The world is changing significantly. You know,
we have all this artificial intelligence, and like, you know,
(21:33):
the COVID vaccine really showed like how divided people were
about you know, the impact of science on daily life.
And and I think that it's really challenging because you know,
there's certainly people who they don't want to hear it, right,
like they they've been turned off. And you know, I
don't know what it's like in the United Kingdom, but
certainly here in the United States, we've lost a significant
(21:56):
amount of funding for science. And I think the hope, yeah,
significant amount of funding like our our you know, our
main body of funding comes from either the National Science
Foundation or National Institute of Health, and I think their
budgets have been slashed maybe eighty ninety percent.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Oh so basically going.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
It's basically gone. And so there's all these all these
like talented folks who are just trying to scramble to
find a place to land. And I have people from
the USDA and FDA that just like complete these brilliant
minds just lost their positions, and so we have this
sort of talent drain that's happening. And my hope is
that my whope. My dream says is that we can
(22:41):
use scientific discourse through cinematography as a way to i
don't know, like leverage it to gain public support and
appreciation for the fact that like a lot of these
things are important, it's important to understand it. It's worth funding.
(23:02):
And I think that's that's that's the first part of
that conversation is, yeah, this is what it is.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Why why has there been these funding cuts?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's a that's an interesting topic.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I think it's it definitely Lands is in a lot
of trouble discussing. But no, no, no, no, I'm happy
to discuss it, you know, I think it's it's more
that Yeah, I mean my perspective has certainly been there's
no appreciation in understanding of you know, what science can
do and has done. I think it's mostly this sort
(23:40):
of idea that maybe that funding should go towards the military, right,
Like I mean, yeah, just like these huge geopolitical scenarios
like Ukraine and Russia, Israel versus Palestine, the US is
just pumping all that money into it, right, and so
where does that money have to come from?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
It comes from from you know, these.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Sort of public sector goods that again because they take
so long to have a return, it's hard to really
see the importance. And it's so sad because you start
to see the impact, like now we have fewer food
safety regulators and and say over over, yes, yes, and
(24:21):
so you start to see sort of uptick and recalls
and and and companies that you know, probably probably should
have been doing their due diligence not doing it. And
you know, and on the other hand, there's like these
bands on these like food ingredients that probably really don't
really move the needle very much like artificial food dies.
(24:44):
Like I think there's more importance that should be guarded
from maybe reducing the amount of sugar that we eat
or probably increasing the amount of fiber that we eat,
which has a lot like decades of research associated with it.
But of course we're going with the thing that makes
up maybe zero point zero five percent of the composition
(25:05):
and has very very little evidence of being having much
of an impact on our health. So it's it's it's
very political right now. It's really unfortunate. I think we
have to live in this reality where politics is part
of our part of the situation that we we live in.
(25:25):
But at the same time, I think there's there's a
way for, you know, public discourse to be shifted, and
I think one of that is through cinematography and through
filth and through all that.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
That's very interesting. I had no idea about any of that.
I do know for my wife. Since I do know,
I think I have an understanding from what I've read
that America has the largest army in the world by far,
So I didn't think more money needed to be put
into it, especially coming from the kind of fear food
(26:00):
industry background that you're suggesting. I also one of the
difference is a documentary your friend and I had in mind,
we weren't really being that series. We were in New York,
and there's certain things we see in terms of food
that we weren't used to.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Like.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
There was loads of advertisers, advertisements in the grocery store
that said, you know, these steaks are steroid free, but
in the UK there are no There were no steroids
in food in that way, so that was very kind
of eye opening. How do you feel about documentaries that
(26:39):
kind of highlight the illness in certain foods. There was
another documentary I watched and some of the fruit juice
drinks are not they don't actually have fruit juice in them,
so they call them like I'm making up a title
by something along the lines of red drink or orange
(26:59):
drink rather than saying orange juice.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You know, it's a it's an interesting scenario that we
live in.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I think because of all these sort of tools and
abilities that we have through technology, we're able to sort
of simulate beverages and flavors and that sort of thing.
And I think, I guess there's a time and place
for these things. But it's really unfortunate that now, you know,
kids have or ending of drinking all these things and
(27:28):
they're not they're not They're of no benefit, right, Like,
there's no reason to just sort of eat drink sugar. Yeah,
I I know, like for me, I grew up on
sugary drinks. I mean, I'm sure everyone did at some point,
lots of candy and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
And I don't love that. I don't love that.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
You know, at the end of the day, now that
I'm thirty thirty five, I've had to I have to
work really hard to sort of, you know, change my habits.
It's just, you know, it's so hard. It's just so
hard and so like, at the end of the day,
I think it's just gonna end up being this situation
(28:08):
where you know, we we have all these different foods
and we don't really know what the impact is going
to be, right Like, like I think the the truly
industrialized food system that we have has only been around
for maybe one hundred years. But it's it's it's creating
(28:30):
situations that we we have never known before. And what
does that mean for the next one hundred two hundred years?
How's that going to change our biology? How's that going
to change? Like, you know, not just our health, but
you know, intrinsically, we're still evolving beings. Like if you
if you look back on the history of things, and
this is this is one of my premises, is like
(28:52):
human beings have you know, changed their environment for millions
of years and in with the invention of fire and
cooking something so simple, but we take you for granted.
If you look at the history, you see that biologically
we've had to evolve and adapt to that. Like our
stomachs have become shorter, you know, our our the micro
(29:17):
organisms that live in our gut has have to like
change and adapt to that.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Actually it's crazy that and and and it's because cook
food doesn't actually exist in nature, like, no organism, no species,
like controls fire in such such a such a such
a way. And we really do take for granted the
fact that this is the fundamental technology, like this is
(29:45):
what allowed humans to stop spending all day hunting and
gathering because you know, now you have clean you have,
you know, food that's safe to eat because you've killed
all the parasites.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
It's easier digest and so and so forth.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
So yeah, I guess the long story short with that
is we're always we're we can't put the technology back
in it, right, We've opened Pandora's box. Right, But so
the question is like, how are you going to do
it responsibly? How are we going to do it in
such a way that actually is positive for society? And
(30:23):
I don't have the answer for that, but I think
that's that's kind of the fundamental question that we have
when you're talking about things like orange drink or red drink.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah, it's funny, you said, I'm sure. Only last week
is watching a documentary, a different documentary, and I found
out that lions can't actually digest cooked food.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
They were out in the wild and it's not something
they can do. And I thought, oh, because I just
assumed the cats, you know, when I've had cats before
and a speach of chicken or pork left over whatever,
put it in their bowl, that eat it. But they
obviously evolved with human beings.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Exactly, exactly right, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
They've they've they've come along for the ride and.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
The and the treats. But you've worked with plant based
and alternative protein companies. How do you see storytelling shape
in the future of this movement, both in media and
in consumer trends.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I think a lot of it has to do with
connecting people to the understanding of what it is. I
think there's a lot of buzzwords. There's a lot of
terms that are thrown around and and and unfortunately there's
this makes me look like I have a tinfoil. But
there is actual little research on this that suggests that
(31:43):
the animal industry has put a lot of money into
marketing against it. Right, So there's there's sort of like
this coercion into like saying like oh, it's it's unhealthy,
and it's you know, it's a problem, and so on
and so forth, we won't get into that. I think
it's a very it's a very big problem. But anyway,
(32:05):
the point is, I think on the opposite end is
sort of helping people understand what it is and why
we are trying to do this making plant based products
and then making you know, cell based products.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Like, I think.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
It's gonna be very hard. It's a very big uphill
battle as far as sharing this information with people, and
I think part of that will be how do we
how do we tell the story visually in a way
that's impactful and emotionally meaningful. And I think that unfortunately,
you know, these in these sort of like smaller sectors
(32:46):
of the industry haven't done a very good dress of
doing that. I think I think it's too much like
it's science right like, or it's like it's technology based,
and I think they've leaned too far into that world
of well, what if it's orange drink? Whe if it's
red right like, you know, are we creating something that
is actually really unhealthy for people? Because the connotation people
(33:10):
do not want like anyone mucking with their food and
for good reason, right like, we've done pretty well for
like eating the kinds of foods that we have for
the last couple of thousands of years. But you know,
I think it's also important to acknowledge innovation and change,
especially as it pertains to, you know, sort of the
(33:30):
survival of our species.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
And over here in the UK we've had shows like
Hell's Kitchen, and when I was a kid, there was
a great show by a lady called Rusty Lee and
she would cook Westinged meals for the whole the United
Kingdom to admire and enjoy A hope. Are there any
particular shows you enjoy watching based around cooking and ones
(33:52):
that you think are actually scientifically correct, you.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Know, not so much scientifically correct, but I really like
what is that what is that show called, you know,
the bake Off break British Breakoff. Yeah, I love that show.
And I think it's because, you know, there's something it's
(34:17):
just kind of nice to just see like all that
happening in front of you. I mean, obviously it's it's
a show, so there's it's curated. You're not gonna see everything,
but there's there there's something interesting about the process. Like
I think baking is very much amendable for this. I
think cooking is a little more like I don't know,
(34:38):
it's like it's kind of like shoot from the hip.
I think baking requires so much precision and the process,
like you see very quickly what happens when you do
not proof something along time, right, Like there's an exact
nature to it, and I think it's a lot closer
to a science than than than than than you know,
(34:59):
just sort of a experience. So that's why I really
like it. I really like seeing like you really do
have to take these steps seriously because there is a
science behind it, Like if you're making a croissant or
if you're making you know, something that's you know, very flaked,
Like there is precision to the idea of like you
do have to get the butter in there in such
(35:20):
a way that it creates layers, because otherwise that that
that chemical process that occurs during making doesn't occur.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
It just can't.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yeah, So it's that's that's what that's what it really
interests me.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
And you mentioned earlier before about moments around food in
your life growing up, whether it be cereal, be for school,
or various other times when you would remember and enjoy food.
Was there a show you would watch with your family
when you was a kid growing up, we would all
eat dinner at the same time or have a special
meal around that time of day.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You know, it's sad. I actually didn't get a lot
of meals with my family. I actually a lot of times. No,
I mean, that's just it was the nature of it.
I think my mom and dad were very busy. They
were running up business. My sister wasn't around that often.
I think she just had a lot of friends and
was their social So I actually ended up eating dinner
(36:15):
a lot by myself. But you know, to that point,
one of the things I really loved watching growing up
while I was eating was The Simpsons. I think you
know that that was a very which is ironic because
it's like I was watching a family right like, and
it was it was comforting in a lot of ways
(36:36):
because you know, it's just you're laughing, it's funny and like.
So there's a lot of positive memories of even like
even if I was you know, I had sort of
like leftover meals, I still I still think of them
really fondly. And I think there's a lot of research
and experience that shows that when you're when you're eating
and you're you're having a good time, you create sort
(36:57):
of those neural networks of you know, between your brain
and your gut, and there's that sort of experience of
you know that that's sort of seered into you, especially
as you're growing older, right like in your childhood. It's
just so it's so valuable and your brain is so
easy to sort of impact an influence.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
And as a food consultant, a lot of the people
listening to this podcast, the filmmakers themselves, they would always
want to have good food on set and ready and
available for the cast and crews. What type of advice
would you give people who are looking to get better food,
healthier food, and tastier food rather than maybe ordering pizzas
(37:40):
or junk food around the corner from the set.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Sure, I think, I mean, if it's ever possible. I
think fruits and vegetables, like getting more fruits and vegetables
are such such a you know, it's so important. But
I think what's really hard is that as we've moved
more towards industrialization, and we've lost a lot of the
nutrients in the fruits.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
And vegetables themselves.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
So I mean you really have to sort of get
sort of a premium type at that in this sort
of day and eight, uh, you know, and then you know,
more and more whole greens. I think, more foods with
more whole greens. It's possible. You know, I'm not a nutritionist,
so I'm not gonna, you know, pretend I know the
whole science of nutrition. But certainly what I've I've found
(38:25):
is that you know, you know, certainly lean meats would
be better than than than you know, pupparoni for example, right,
Like it's you know, there's a there's something like simplicity.
I think simplicity is a huge one to consider. And
that's why and that's actually why I really like Japanese
food is because of its simplicity and and and sort
of they do sort of tend towards more like rawdness
(38:47):
in terms of the dietary conditions. That's that's maybe eat
more sushi every day, I had like three specific meals. Uh.
And so I think like a life shot of me
just like sitting on a rock eating like oatmeal with
(39:07):
like added protein would be like you know that that's
like quintessential In my head, I'm like, yeah, I did
that so often. I think it's like almost a you know,
a mental meme and then you know, and then during uh,
during lunchtime, I made like these these sort of tuna
tuna sandwiches or I make like peanut butter sandwiches, but
(39:28):
I have to eat like six of them, right because
I was like I needed like four thousand calories. So
I was just like eating so much. So, you know,
and I think at the end of the day, if
if I have myself to some ways like so like
(39:52):
you know, all these like they're very strong memories for
me and so like, and I'm always constantly eating like nuts,
that was like a big so I think a lot
of it was like trying to try to always have
something that was shelf stable, which is really hard. That's
also not like chalk full of sugar or you know,
full of salt. Like I really needed a lot of
(40:13):
protein for my legs, and I needed a lot of
like slow burning carbohydrates, and that's where the oatmeal came in.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
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(42:30):
Good Food Institution, you co authored a seventy five page
analysts on turning crop side streams into alternative crotine inputs.
If we filmed that waste of value pipeline which sets
eg stabilizing brewers spent grain making so hydrates for media
are the most cinematic and what misconceptions would you want
(42:52):
to do?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I think would be really cool. It would be like a.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Ah, you know, sort of like a shot of like
what do you call it where you know it's like
a time course. This is like my scientific word for it,
but basically like you know, over the course of several
months like watching like growing mushrooms on this side stream
and like watching them grow.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
I think that would be really cool.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
I think that's like a really effective way and means
of showing like, yeah, this is like a biological way
of like transforming all this waste into real food. And
I think, yeah, I've been meaning to do something like that.
I grow mushrooms myself and I try to use a
lot of you know, waste products to make them. And
(43:43):
it's a lot of fun. And there is actually a
shot of me like putting it all together, but there's
no shot of me like actually watching the mushrooms grow,
So that that would be cool to include.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
When you say watching the mushrooms grow, a part of
me thinks that you might be thinking about a time.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Maps in in a lab setting, the term is time
course that I just like forgot time laps time ops. Yes,
that's correct.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
And why mushrooms in particular.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Well, they're so versatile and they have the you know,
if you if.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
You were to remove all their water, they are really.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
High proteins and I think it's about twenty percent and
they basically can consume literally anything when it comes to
biological byproducts. They're pretty not fussy. Now they do get
they do get molds, and they do get and you know,
contamination that sort of thing. But if you do a
great job at like doing the process, like anyone can
(44:43):
really do it. Like it's not something that you need
like a bower reactor for or like you know, you
don't need like a giant like pieces of machinery or
scientific equivalent to do like it can be done, and
it's very it's it's something that I think it's sort
of missing and serve of our in our culture, in
(45:03):
the Western culture because I think there's not as much
mushroom consumption, but if you look in Chinese culture, it's huge.
It makes it's like a huge percentage of their you know,
dietary input. And there's a lot of benefits to mushrooms
as far as like gastro intestinal inflammatory, you know, there's
there's all sorts of these health benefits that's kind of
(45:24):
missing and and sort of Western cuisine because of that.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Okay, I do like mushroom, let's say, but in film
for example, for full disclosure, because it's audio only this podcast,
I'm wearing.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
It's the true, the true mushroom connoisseur, right, the og
plus one.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Exactly. Super Mario Mario himself loved mushrooms. Do you think
thought of the benefits to mushrooms that made them decide
that mushrooms could be a big thing in super Mariobra
of us.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I hate to de pend
this way only because you know, it's something that's been
on my mind. But certainly, you know, you know, psilocybin
and psychedelic mushrooms are very large. You know, it's it's
if you look at the statistics, is actually one of
the most consumed psychedelic compounds, and and there's this lot
(46:24):
of history actually if you look in human evolution of
the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms in order to sort of
like improve our connections with one another, and there's a
lot of spiritual aspects associated with it. If you look
at like Egyptian iconography, if you look at you know,
certain Greek iconography, you can start to see like there
(46:45):
are there was like a sort of consumption of psychedelic
mushrooms and the certainly you know nowadays, there there's a
lot of studies and and sort of understanding of oh,
like they actually do benefits in terms of combatting depression
or dealing with anxiety or you know, there's there's a
(47:05):
lot of mental health research.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
But because they are Schedule.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
One in the United States, there's Schedule one substances, which
means that they're the highest level of criminalization that has
resulted in in you know, a severe restriction on their use.
And you know, I'm not I'm not here to say like, oh,
recreational drug uses is a good thing, but certainly I
(47:29):
think there are there are benefits to having sort of
a lower restriction for for those types of compounds, simply
because the you can, the research literature is very strong
in terms of demonstrating that as long as you pair
it with you know, other experiences like therapy or you know,
(47:50):
with with you know, sort of group work and that
sort of thing. There's there's a lot of ways that
trauma and and and you know, you know, negative of
experiences of past can sort of be metabolized in that way.
And so I know, you know, the original like Japanese
game designers had that in mind. I don't know if
(48:11):
they're just like there's mushrooms in Italian cuisine, right, but like,
you know, there's there's always these tropes of like, you know,
what is what is Mario doing? Like in you know,
the plumbing and like why is he like in this
like weird world and there's all these mushrooms enemies are
not you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Yeah, and you've appeared on Dutch TV. What did that experience?
Teacher about pacing voice over and fact checking when translating
complex food science claims that LCA or new trade offs
into type watchable segments.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, I mean, luckily that particular segment was about fish sauce,
and I'm obsessed with fish sauce, so I sort of
already had like a very strong large knowledge base as
far as when it comes to fish sauce specifically, so
I didn't I did have to dig too deep, but
I definitely pulled in like textbooks as as like horror references,
(49:12):
just so that I wasn't just making stuff off the bat.
They're making stuff up. And it was nice because I
was able to contribute both on sort of like the
initial research side of oh, like what do you what?
What is fish slaws? How has it made? And so
and so forth, and they had to sort of use
that as fact checking, but also when I did the
voice over itself. It was nice to know like I
(49:34):
already had that knowledge coming in and you know, making
sure that I had the audience in mind and thought
about like, oh, how would they how would they hear
a conversation?
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Right?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Like That's that's largely how I speak in sort of
digital settings, is I can I get more of a
conversation rather than like, I really don't like to work
with scripts, and probably at some point that's going to
bite me, but I try to basically just like go
with the flow as much as I can, because I
(50:07):
think ultimately, I think people can tell like unless you're
a really good actor, and that's that's already what you
do is to read scripts and know how to translate that.
For someone like me, I'm just a sort of like
a talk to head, so it's a lot easier for
me to just be expressive and share information off the cuff.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
You know what I'm saying, Fish sauce, why are you
obsessed with it? And tell us more about it? Because
for myself in England we have fish and chips as
I think that the world knows, but the only source
that would really come with that is talk top.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Did you know that Workshire I can never say it
is Workshire. Shire sauce is fish sauce. The one of
the most important ingredients to that is anthrovies. So they
trick you because when it was first when it was
first invented back in the I think late eighteen hundreds,
some chemists like they had some you know, malt vinegar
(51:09):
that they needed to dispose of, and they just decided
they're own some pantrovies in it. I don't know why
that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Like
I actually I find that the invention of a lot
of food food condiments like ketch up and that sort
of thing they're mestered is like really bizarre. But anyway,
they just kind of act like they just there's some
(51:31):
fish in there, and let sit for like and they
forgot about for like three years. They just like left
it and then they tried it and they were like, oh,
this is amazing, let's make more. Like what I don't like,
I don't know how people come up with this stuff.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
So when you go with that television to give a
voice over in Disgusting, what is the process like from
the studio the production point of view for you are
you in a room alone, are you with other people
directing you give the voice?
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Ova?
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Well, what happened was that they had wanted to do
recording all semi live. I mean, it wasn't live in
the sense that they they they didn't like air it live,
but they wanted me to actually say the words while
they were doing the skit or the production. So what
(52:17):
they did is they they literally called me and then
they went into the whole you know, the whole bit.
So it wasn't it wasn't like segment. They didn't just
like have me record and then send it to them
and then they cut it up. They literally just talked
to me and then that was that exact segment is
what they what they aired.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
So it was interesting. I mean, I think that made
it a lot.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Easier to to not make it feel i don't know,
kind of a stiff, and then it kind of just
gave a lot more personality to the experience. But it
was interesting because I had to like, I had to
be like, yes, this is this is our time when
like we're doing it and it can't we can't like
move it. It's like that's that's when when that particular
(53:03):
person is available to make that shoot so and then
of course it's in the Netherlands right like, so they're
in the letter lands that I'm in the US, so
like we have to coordinate time zones too. So I
found it very fascinating like that there's just like international
collaboration of sorts.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
And lastly, if the Good Food Institute funded a short
companion piece to your duck, what's the single sends you
and insist on capturing to public trust?
Speaker 2 (53:31):
Man, you know, I think it would be really cool
if they could do a video of people eating cell
based meat or like lab grown meat. I think a
lot of people think it comes out of like you know,
like a refinery or something. But like the way it
(53:53):
looks is like it looks like food, and it really
does look like meat. So and I've see you know,
I haven't tried it myself, which is unfortunate, you know, situated.
I would like to eventually, but yeah, I mean, like
when I see photos and that sort of thing, I'm like, well,
where's the videos, you know, Like where's like people actually
(54:15):
eating and like enjoying and having conversation. I think that's
an important piece that I wonder if you know, they
sort of don't realize is this critical for sort of
cultural mass of like can we introduce Oh, that'd be great,
Like can we introduce this into like sort of movies.
Can we introduce it into like you know, television. Can
we induce it in things that like people see as
(54:36):
culturally relevant? Because I feel like that that becomes it
becomes like canonical for humans to like now eat once
it's it's sort of seen, there's some there's some power
to it. There's some power about media that allows you know,
easy introduction. I mean think that's that's I think that's
what commercials are. Like commercials have taking advantages for like decades.
(54:59):
Is like like you know, show people eating, show people
having good time, blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
It's like, yeah, even the freaking pharmaceutical.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Companies are like you know, oh, you know, now Mary
at the age of sixty can like finally bike or
you know, because now she doesn't have hemorrhoids. Like it's
like it's that simple. I think I really do think
it's that simple, which is like show people actually enjoying
this stuff, because I think that's the missing component. So
I'm really glad you brought that up because so often
(55:30):
I feel like it's it's sort of just thrust it
on you, Like these sort of like food ideas that like, oh,
the people will just accept them because they're sustainable or
you know, they're not necessarily healthier, but they probably have
more like they're safer to produce. But like people don't
care about that. I mean, I barely care about that,
(55:53):
and I'm a food seat. I care about like, are
people having good time? And I'm like, does it taste good? Like?
And it's true, you have to be honest about that,
and you know, be able to show that in media.
I think it's so powerful, so powerful.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
That was my conversation with Brian, doctor Brian Quockley, and
honestly it's the kind of chat that stays with you
long after it ends. His book one hundred and fifty
Science Questions Answered has so many pages that jump out
at you. Take the one about putting hot food in
the fridge. I grew up here in you should let
it call first. It turns out that's not always the
(56:34):
safest advice. Brian explains why, and suddenly you're rethinking something
you've done your whole life. Then there's raw milk, which
some people swear By. But when Brian lays out the science,
you start to see the risks hiding in plain sight.
And I've got to mention this. I'm literally on my
way to pick up some fish sauce after this recording,
(56:57):
And like everyone else, I've asked myself, live in the
cupboard or do I need to clear fridge base for it.
Brian's section on Sawyer and fish sauces nails that question
with the kind of clarity you wish every label had.
But the bit that really brought me back was his
take on the canned and frozen foods. In college, canned
(57:20):
food was survival. It was about being creative, stretching meals
and saving a buck or two. But I'll be honest,
I never thought much about the nutrition back then. It
was about getting through the week. Reading Brian's explanation that
canned and frozen can hold onto nutrients, sometimes even better
(57:41):
than the fresh. What ties it all together for me
is how Brian writes these entries like little short films.
Each page has a setup, tension, and resolution. It's storytelling
in science, in food, and in the way we live
day to day. And when you think about his work
on the food matrix you see. It's no accident. Brian
(58:06):
understands that science and film aren't that different. Both are
about clarity, pacing, and pulling your audience into a story
they'll remember. So that's what I'll leave you with today.
Whether you're a filmmaker, a student, eating canned food on
a budget, or just someone staring at a bottle of
(58:26):
fish sauce in the supermarket or grocery store, Brian's work
reminds us that curiosity and storytelling connect us all. Please
go to the show notes to find a link to
buy Brian's book. It's one for everyone's bookshelf. Thanks for
listening to Filmmaking Conversations with Damie Swaley. If you enjoy
this episode, subscribe it, share it, and please do leave
(58:49):
a comment on the comment section on Apple Podcast.
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