Conspiracy, Revolution, & Other Worlds, The Disappearance & Reappearance of Steven Kubacki

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
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just going to get weirder and weirder and weirder, and
finally it's going to be so weird that people are

(00:44):
going to have to talk about how weird it is.
Eventually people are going to say, what the hell is
going on. It's not enough to say it's nuts. You
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the cloning of human beings, possible contact with extraterrestrials. The

(01:08):
systems which are in place to keep the world sane
are utterly inadequate to the forces that have been unleashed.
Welcome back to Forbidden Knowledge News. I'm your host, Chris Matthew. Today,
my guest is Stephen Kobaki. Be sure and check out

(01:29):
my films. Doors of Perception is on Amazon Prime. A
Cult Louisiana is on two b Roku channel appleanmore. Visit
our website Forbidden Knowledge dot news. It's the home of
the Forbidden Knowledge Network. We feature some of your favorite
podcasts and content creators, and we are booking guests for
December and January. If you have suggestions or you'd like

(01:51):
to be a guest, email me Forbidden Knowledgenews at gmail
dot com. Today I want to welcome Stephen Kobaki. He
disappeared for fifth fifteen months in nineteen seventy eight in
a conspiracy to start a revolution and which also involved
multiverse experiences. He has written a memoir on that conspiracy,

(02:12):
revolution and revelation, The Extraordinary Disappearance of Stephen Kebaki after
forty five years of silence. Steven, Welcome, How you doing.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I'm doing great, Thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Thanks so much for coming on. I'm really looking forward
to sharing the story of your disappearance and reappearance fifteen
months later, which occurred over forty five years ago, and
you recently wrote a book which breaks your silence about
the experiences after forty five years, and there's so much
to get to in this story. I want to try

(02:48):
and touch on as much as possible in the limited
time that we have, and I'd love to let you
tell the story so the audience can hear it firsthand.
But before we get to any of that, this is
your first time on and just tell us a little
bit briefly about yourself and let the audience know how
they can find out more.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Okay, my name is Stephen Kobaki. I'm right now. I'm
a clinical psychologist and I kind of have an active
psychotherapy practice, but I'm also doing a lot of writing.
I've written this book about my memoir about what happened
in nineteen seven eight during my disappearance, but I'm also
writing a lot of other books. I have another book

(03:28):
that hopefully will be shopping around with my literary agent soon.
It's called The Multiverse Guide. Humanity kind of gets into
multiverse theories and how the multiverse can be a model
for us to make the world a better place and
make people happier and have more meaningful life. So, yeah,
I've done. Yeah, I have a master's in linguistics, got

(03:50):
at many universities. I've done a lot of things since
my disappearance.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Well, excellent, this is such a fascinating story. Maybe week
has just start at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
I guess we could start with the disappearance on the ice,
if that's where you'd.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
Like to start or sure sounds good to me.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Okay, okay. So in October February of nineteen seventy eight,
I and my fellow conspirators decided that I would disappear
on the frozen tundra ice of Lake Michigan. And I
was a student at Hope College in Holland, Michigan. It's

(04:29):
not very far from from the lake. Before I went
on the lake that day, I often would go cross
country skiing and cross country ski out on Lake Michigan.
And that was in preparation for, you know, for legitimizing
my disappearance, or legitimizing that. In fact, I would do
dairy things and go out on the lake. And before

(04:51):
that also did many many kind of Could you.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Tell us a little bit about how you concocted the conspiracy,
What brought the whole thing about?

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Oh okay, yeah, yeah. What what brought it about was in
a group of co conspirators decided we wanted to really
change the world in some way, and we didn't want
to do it in a conventional way. You know, we all,
we're all pretty smart people. We could have gone our
you know, traditional routes and try to reform the system,

(05:20):
but we felt the system was unreformable. We felt the
system was pretty much controlled by the rich and powerful,
and that has not changed over over centuries. And sometimes
it gets better, you know, some type people do reforms
and you know, things get better. There's better justice, there's
better equality with income, a whole variety of things. But

(05:40):
pretty much, you know, the authoritarians and sociopaths stay in
power and maintain that power with one another through various
networks like you know, corporate boards. You know, if anybody
knows about corporate boards, everybody's not everybody's corporate board. So
that's why, you know, CEOs make so much money and
hope variety of things. So anyways, we we wanted to

(06:03):
you know, change the world and in a lot of
excuse me, in a lot of different ways. We also
felt that there was a lot of meaningless. Uh, there
was a lot even back in the seventies, a tremendous
amount of addiction meaninglessness among young people and older people too. Uh.
You know, the culture industry was getting you know, not

(06:23):
quite the steroids it's on now, but it was pretty
powerful and you know, and and people were kind of
caught up in that and and uh, you know, becoming
kind of more empty inside, I thought in many ways,
and filling themselves with commodities and and also at the
same time sort of adopting this sort of philosophy that
you know, I can be powerful and you know, make
lots of money like everyone else, and and and it

(06:46):
kind of you know, I just saw communities being destroyed.
We're very social creatures. I mean to go off on
antented but anyways, that was some of the things we
were talking about we were thinking about. We could talk
more about that later.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
And so we developed an organization called the Next list
Stick Revolutionary Front. I know that sounds kind of weird
revolutionary Front, but that was kind of the jargon way
back when when people were trying to change things, at
least the way we were trying to change things. And
so we developed this organization.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
It's the word nexillism comes from a book by ae
Van Volk. He's a science fiction writer called the Voyage
of the Space People. And nexialism is really all about
kind of understanding the assumptions and the values and the
methodologies of different sciences and literature, humanities and the next

(07:37):
list assembody. Then who because they understand all these things
at least their fundamental levels, is when their face with
particular problems can think outside the box and creatively insynthesized
solutions like a little bit kind of like a renaissance person,
you might say. So, anyways, that was the name of
our of our organization, and the organization had two parts

(07:59):
to it. One part was what we call the right Arm,
and there were going to be there were three people
involved in that who were going to gain power and
influence and wealth in the traditional sense. So one person
was going to go into politics, one person was going
to go into finance and business. Another person was going

(08:22):
to go in religion and so gain power and influence
in that way. And so that was kind of the
right arm you might call the legitimate arm, in which
you know, people have tried to do in different ways
and various levels of success. And then what made our
thing different is that also I would go underground, I
would try to develop a people's resistance to the economic

(08:46):
and political and cultural structures that they were pressing people,
and so I would go underground. In order to undergo underground.
The best way for me to go underground was to
sort of disappear and assume a new identity, and then
I would be free to do whatever I needed to
do underground. And then sort of it's kind of the

(09:08):
vague goal because you can't plan any of this, but
you know, it was that decades later, each of us
would be in our positions where we're supposed to be,
and then we would come together, the right and the left,
and then we would be pretty difficult to stop with
what we wanted to do in the work. But that
was kind of the theory and the idea in the book.

(09:30):
There's lots of documents that I wrote in others and letters,
and it's very interesting to kind of read kind of
that kind of thinking way back then. Though I think
it's still pretty relevant now because of all that's going
on in our society. It's pretty bad, you know. In fact,
things are probably one hundred times worse back in the
late seventies in terms of authoritarianism and you know, the

(09:52):
addictions that are going on and the sense of meaninglessness
and whole variety of things. So anyway, so I take
the book address is that. But yeah, so we that
was sort of the plan. And so then I had
to disappear. So where would I disappear? Where I was
in Holland, Michigan. And the smartest thing, you know, the
idea was I would cross country ski out on the ice.

(10:14):
So that's what I did. My cross country skied out
on the ice. I planted my skis and my back
my backpack, and then then I had a very kind
of unusual experience. Right then, this was sort of a surprise,
very much a surprise. I was in a very highly
intense can imagine state of of uh you know, of
drama in my life, al though I felt intwardly kind

(10:37):
of calm at the same time, because I was about
to do what very few people have ever done, if
anyone's ever done what we were planning. I don't think
there's actually any historical precedence to what we were doing. Uh.
And and you know it's very extreme, but uh, you know,
the extremeness was to counter what we saw as the
extreme threats to the destruction of our environment and civilization. Right,

(10:58):
So so I did something very extreme. We did something
very extreme, and on the ice, I had this I
kind of bifurcated. Kind of my understanding it now is
kind of more in terms of the multiverse that that
part of me went under the water or w entered
some interdimensional space. It's kind of hard to say, you know,

(11:20):
I have memories of that and what happened and where
I met beings of light and kind of inside an
energy show, and there was sort of this kind of
unusual communication with with light that makes any sense and colors.
I mean, light is kind of a wave, sound is
a wave, so different ways of communicating though I had

(11:40):
no understanding of it, and I was communicated with in
different ways and been reprocessing that all that information since then.
Though there have been other experiences after that too, and
then another part of me kind of like sort of
like bifurcated left the ice as Nathan T. Stanfield. That
was my new my identity. I left the ice. So

(12:01):
there's there's sort of kind of two parallel kinds of
timelines going on or world's kind of going on at
the same time. And yeah, so that's yeah, that was.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Let's explore that a little bit as far as the
circumstances that led to that state of mind. Were you
gradually falling into an altered state? Was there anything that
you physically noticed that led to that?

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well, I was, again, I was a very heightened state
of awareness and intensity of about to do something you
know that nobody ever does. I was about to disappear.
And you know it was a whole plot and everything
behind all this, so you know, and I, in my
what I was doing was the lynchpin to cementing your.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
Basically, I guess I mean, did you pass out or
did you lose consciousness in the same way?

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, well, you know, I don't know if you would
say I lose consciousness because you know I left the
ice as Nathan T. Stanfield, I think what happened was
I entered this other dimension. There's a you know, that's
how I perceived it as now is another dimension and
this and met these beings. And you know, sometimes when
people have you know, you know, post traumatic stress disorder.

(13:19):
When people have traumas, they can you know, they can
dissociate and see themselves above their bodies, or they go elsewhere.
Sometimes they go to other unit who knows, you know, universes,
there's all kinds of you know, obviously there's something clearly psychological, biological,
but there's also something probably happening in a transcendental or
multiverse way too at the same time, which I learned

(13:41):
later learning got into in terms of you know, it's
called soul retrieval, where you try to find people's parts
of who they are that are lost in different places.
That happens with trauma very you know, it a little
similar to what psychologists do or what you do kind
of clinically. But but so I had this, but mine
wasn't a negative trauma. Mind was a positive one, a

(14:02):
positive intense experience which led to a dissociation, that's how
we think of it psychologically, and part of me entered
this other, this other kind of dimension, so that that's
how it looked. I didn't like fall asleep or lose
you know, lose consciousness. That's you know, I guess maybe
in a certain way. But there, you know, I was
pretty clear, you know, when I left, as Nathan T. Standfiel,

(14:25):
I knew exactly what I was doing. And I walked
off the ice, and you know, and then the whole
story began with people trying to find me. You know,
that was quite a hullabaloo.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Could you go into a little bit more detail about
the dissociation into the identity of Nathan's Stanfield. Is that
something that just happened in that instance, like an instantaneous thing.
Did you gradually start to have downloads of a different
personality tell us a little bit about it.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
No, no, nob yeah, let me let me. I think
it's a little confusion. Nathan T. Stanfield was my identity
after I left the Ice, okay, and Nathan T. Stanfield
was totally locked into the mission of the nex Holistic
Revolutionary for the NRF. Though as Nathan, you know, it's
kind of you know, there's me under me in another

(15:17):
dimension and me as Nathan there. It's all it's they're connected, okay.
And it's not like there's no con though, though there
was in terms of associates kind of not too sort
of being separate but together. I don't know, it's very
hard to explain, you know, in terms of you know,
I don't think we really understand how that how that happens.
But you know, there's in the multiverse and quantum theory,

(15:38):
you know, you can be. You know, there are many
you know, there are an infinite number of us, you know,
at any time, and and so I think that's kind
of a way I kind of look at it now.
Uh So, So I was you know, we say I
was Stephen under the ice or in this sort of
energy shell, and and then I had these this sort
of might call it downloading of information, you know, That's

(16:01):
all I think of it. And and it wasn't scary.
I I found it very benevolent and caring. And but
I think it's because also previous to that, I had
previous experiences, and I also did a lot of studying
kind of in this area. Uh And so I wasn't
I wasn't I wasn't scared. And I think how we

(16:22):
A lot of people have these interdimensional experiences or they
have you know, might call them UFO abductions. I mean this,
I'm not you know, and I'm not trying to in
any way say there aren't UFOs picking people up and
things like that. But I think sometimes people have something
that's more interdimensional like I had. Uh And and I

(16:43):
think then who you are gets projected onto the experience.
So if this is happening without your you know, any history,
any knowledge of what's going on. It can be pretty scary.
And then people then see, you know, project what they
want to make sense of it, so they i'd see
you know, horrible aliens and reptiles and things getting implanted

(17:05):
in them and all kinds of stuff because you know,
it's all you know, because of the fear and everything.
I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but you know, maybe
there are no bad obviously some bad ets or whatever.
But I think you know, you look at shamanic cultures,
it's very typical for people to enter these into these
other dimensions or realities and for it to you know,

(17:26):
and to work with other beings or ets super ets.
How't you want to talk about them? Uh? And and
to and to have it as a positive experience. Sometimes
these beings might put things in them or down, you know, whatever,
but it wasn't seen as you know, uh, surgery or
you know, or cutting you up or some you know,
terrible things or you know, planning whatever inside of you.

(17:50):
So again it becomes a way of interpreting things. And
I think that's probably one of the problems with language
around spirituality and these sort of experiences is the language,
and it's very culturally based, you know, you know, instead
of you know, if somebody was very Christian, they might
have seen something very different than what I saw. It

(18:11):
might still have been benevolent, but it might be kind
of angels in heaven or something like that. But I
tend to be a lot more science science.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
How long did this experience lasts? Do you have an
awareness of the amount of time?

Speaker 2 (18:25):
You know, it's kind of I think it's outside of time,
outside of what we consider time. So it lasted, you know,
I mean long, whatever long is. And and you know,
and I think you know this a little little, you know,
it gets fits into the multiverse. I think we're in
many places at the same time, but we don't know it.
So you know they're at there, are yous elsewhere that

(18:46):
you're connected with who knows, you know, the timelines or
the universe's dimensions that you may not be aware of.
So you might say that me and the energy show
and what was going on there in some ways perhaps
is continuing in some way, you know, And uh, you know,
I've had experiences since then, you know, meeting, uh, these

(19:08):
these beings of light, after this, after the disappearance, and
a lot of other kinds of experiences.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
So now the information I received during the experience, was
it instantaneously relate as like what's understood as a download?
Was it a conversation that you were having? How did
that come through?

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Well, it was kind of a It was like a
dancing of light and energy forms. And I felt that
I even became like a being of light in some ways,
like you know that you know, and and there was
this it it wasn't I don't know download instantaneous. These
are ways of talking about it. Uh, you know, the
information I received, I've still making sense of it. It's

(19:51):
you know, it was you know, a lot of it's
sort of beyond my understanding, but I think it's informed
my writing since then and my ideas. So you know,
I think, you know, I guess one of the messages
I got was that, you know, we really need to
change our course. I mean people, I know other people
have gotten messages like this, but we need to change

(20:13):
our course. We need to trust one another, create, you know,
be more loving and caring, and and this idea of
the multiverse is kind of being a model that we
can you can follow because of the multiverse. Everything is diverse,
and I think these having these connections. When we have
more connections, then we are more stable and more caring.

(20:33):
We have fewer connections. This like in psychology, you know,
things that love and caring and community creates connections and
people are more stable. The negative emotions reduce connections, you know.
So if we have if you're living chronically in negative motions,
or you have a society that's you know, chronically into
negative emotions, whether it's envy, divisiveness, hate, rage, and all

(20:55):
those things, you know, you have fewer connections with other
people and that generally leads to more unhappiness and more dysfunctionality,
not just psychologically but clearly at a social and political
and you know, economical level.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
Now, before we get further into the information that you
received from the experience, what happened when you came back
from that experience? What were the series of events to follow?

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Well, I had a you know, and you know this
is where you know, as Nathan T. Stanfield, I went
to Mexico and then I had some experiences there in Japan,
came back to the States, and then I eventually entered
the French Forard legion shortly before I re emerged, and

(21:42):
and it was entering the French Forigd Legion that they
realized that I could not carry out my mission. You
might say that one of the one of the experiences
I had was in what I was in Japan, was
this meeting this sort of I called the dark Monk.
This you might call archetypal, but I think it's kind
of a presence in some dimension and the dark Monk. Again,

(22:05):
people might call it different things, but that's how I experienced.
It was was a force or a being that believed
in what I was called what I was told as
compassionate ruthlessness. Of those two words kind of don't seem
to go together, but you know, just a little bit
of an oxymoron. But it was kind of a being
that believed in power and strength and you know, the

(22:25):
end justifies the means. And so there was this darkness
that I struggled with because obviously it was within me,
and my life since childhood has been a little bit
kind of a struggle between the dark and the light.
I think most of us have all that struggle, but
mine was, you know, I had these experiences with these
with these beings who might collar forces, and when eventually

(22:50):
towards the end, I kind of liberated myself from the
we might say, the dark Monk and realized that this
was something I couldn't do. I couldn't become, you know,
somebody who created a tremendous harm in the world and suffering,
which was kind of what I was kind of supposed
to do if I, you know, joined the French War
in the French Warm region.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
Led to the Dark Monk encounter. What were you doing?

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, well, let in the dark Monk counter was well,
let me see. When I was in Japan and I
was training in the martial arts dojo UH and and UH.
I went there because things that happened in Monterey, Mexico.
I was told, you know, I was kind of knew
I had to leave. There was something else going on

(23:36):
there that That's where I met Jaguar, who might say,
my my power animal there to try to help me.
But when I got to uh to Japan, uh I
realized that I had the Dark Monk helped me then
realize what I needed to do. I kind of got
into the dark Monk because I had never really kind

(23:57):
of I guess all my life struggled with it, but
I was trying to embrace it. And and then after
that became clear to me, then I left the dojo.
The dojo was you know, there was it was interesting training.
It was very rigorous, you know, meditation and things. But uh,
you know, I beget you know, but also there was
a kind of a you know where we had to

(24:20):
go out and you know, hang out with baskets and
get money, and you know, there was a whole lot
it was all economics to this that I didn't care for.
And and it was clearly, you know, there was a
you could see that. You know, when you join groups,
you know, like that or even the military or anything
or any kind of any kind of group, there's a

(24:41):
there's an attempt to change you. So you become part
of the group. So there's a way of breaking who
you are down, so you become whatever it is the
group wants you to become. That happens in a lot
of things. Actually, even see that. I have a lot
of people who work in corporations and psychologists, and you
can you can see people change, you know, when they
have to work eighty ninety hours a week over over

(25:03):
months or years, it begins to change people and they
become more part of the system.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Could you tell us a little bit about your Mexico
experiences where you said you came to meet your Jaguar
power animal. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah. When I was there, I was also training at
on dojo, and what I was having dreams of feeling
like my energy was being something was happening with my energy.
And and and as I got to know the u
they were really buhos who were part of this dojo

(25:40):
that they were you know, they were doing things, you know,
kind of shamanic stuff, you might say, sorcery, try to
help people doing this. So I saw, you know, things happening,
but they're also there was a dark side to them,
and it felt like they went in this dream. I
had the sense that they were kind of taking energy
from my my many you might say, and and I

(26:03):
realized that. And then I had this vision of the
jaguar where I became a Jaguar, and you know, it
was very clear that I was supposed to, you know,
fleetly leave this situation, so I did.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Let's talk a little bit about some of the understandings
that you came to after this experience. It says that
you have a new view of the cognitive root of evil.
Tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, well, one of the things that came as you know,
and again maybe you know these kings come from various sources, probably,
but I've come to the conclusion and it comes from
there that certainty leads leads to harm and suffering, you know,
And you see this very clearly in politics and religion.
You see this in individual personalities. When people are certain

(26:57):
about something, then they use cause harm or cause harm
to themselves, you know, I mean, you know, obviously religions.
You know, there can be ideologies where people kill because
they're certain about their beliefs. You see this in religion,
you see this in politics, you see the whole variety
of things. And you also see it in mental health issues.

(27:18):
You know, when when I when somebody is very depressed,
they are attached to their depression in some ways they
identify with it. Of course, they disidentify with some degree,
otherwise they would be seeing you as a therapist. But
there is a certainty about it that this is this
is the only way I can be. You know, I'm stupid,
I'm no good, you know, whatever the think the cognitive

(27:39):
thinking is. But there's a certainty behind it, and in
psychotherapy it's part of their job is to break this
certainty town so the person can see themselves in their many,
many facets, not just they're a failure totally, so that
you know, these gross generalizations are certainties and and uh
and yeah, they're very harmful psychologically and obviously very harmful

(27:59):
at asystem institutional level. So I see that as kind
of you know, when you look at the people who
have been most evil in the world, you know, they
always have this sense of total certainty and total belief
in their dogma and their ideology for the most part,
at least project that some.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Would believe that that level of evil in our reality
is not supposed to be part of this In a sense,
there may have been a parasitic energetic invasion, a negative
intelligence that infected humanity's collective consciousness, and that's what led

(28:37):
to basically the state we're in now. Some just believe
it's multi generational programming by these very powerful families, that
it just puts this ideology out to the next generation
every time, so they stay in power and they stay psychotic. Basically,
what do you think.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Well, I think it's multi fact you know, So I
think you know, we can look at it many different levels,
you know, if we look at it socially, you know,
in terms of economics and politics, there's very clearly, you
know what we were talking about before. There's the people
in power I call economic predators or sociopaths, and and
and because they don't have a conscience, because there's no empathy,

(29:20):
they can manipulate the vast majority ninety nine for five
percent of us who are caring and loving and you know,
trust and altruistic. I mean, you know people, you know,
I have people who work eighty ninety hours a week
for what so Jeff Bezols can buy a new yacht.
I mean, you know what, you know what I mean.
The parasitic of the nature of it all is just
is so unbelievable. But yet we all seem to accept

(29:42):
it because we get we get inculcated, brainwashed into this
extreme individualism that I can have the power too, I
can have the wealth. It's all about winning, and that
eventually destroys our communal and social sense. But most people
can't do it. Most people can be sociopaths. It's very
hard to be a kill. It's very hard to or
legalize let's say legalize criminality. Actually, there's a really interesting

(30:07):
book by John Tuby. It's called The Anatomy of Genre.
Its kind of looks at different like genres in fiction
and nonfiction. Uh, and one of them is the gangster.
And you know, if you look at popular you know,
we look at corporations, governments kind of as kind of
gangster organizations. They're kind of criminal, they're kind of legalized

(30:29):
forms of criminality, and the justice system supports you know, corporations,
you know, they they do whatever they want, and yet
there's very little accountability because there are people. After all,
we know, corporations there are people, which is a complete
crazy idea when you think about it, but yet it's
completely you know, it's you know, it's been around for
hundreds of years in our you know, legal system and

(30:49):
everywhere around the world. So it helps protect all this
all that goes on and maintains you know, the various
power structures. So you know, so there's the there's that side.
There's clearly, you know, the psycho logical side of the
emptiness people feel because you know, you because we are
social creatures, we need to connect, you know, and so

(31:09):
you know, back in the old days. My father digress
a little bit. My father was a union man and
worked entire factory and he went on a number of strikes.
You know, why do you go on strikes? Well, people
back then went on strikes not just to make more
money and have salary and better benefits. They did it
for the future, They did it for others. It was altruistic,

(31:29):
you know, it was self sacrificing. And and you know,
the people who promligate this extreme individualism don't want us
to be self sacrificing. They don't want us to be trusting.
They don't want us to have communities. They want us
all to be little individuals, so we're more easily manipulated,
and then we have to then they create these false
you know communities, these as of communities through social media

(31:53):
and other ways in order to fill the emptiness. But
of course it's never satisfying, and then all the addictions
that go on, you know, and then you know, so
there's that, and and you know, there's the scientific objective
level that's very important. And I'm a very believer in
space exploration and things like that. So but science can
obviously be misused and has been issues for a variety

(32:13):
of things. But when you get into the transcendental world,
into the you know, the multiverse world, you know, I
think there are probably there are beings out there, you know.
I mean, it's just like in our world and our universe.
You know, they're probably ets in our universe we haven't
encountered that probably are not nice ets, you know. And
and you know in probably these other dimensions is the

(32:34):
same thing. So I think these are things that are all
happening at the same time and kind of feed into
one another. But I wouldn't I wouldn't be a reductionist,
you know. I wouldn't say, well, it's all you know, archetypal,
it's all in the these beings who come and gotten us,
and you know, maybe that's happening to some degree, but
there's all I mean, you know, you can just look
at what's going on in the world economically and politically,

(32:56):
and you don't need to go far from there to
see how messed up it is, you know. So I
think we need to operate on different fronts. So we
need to operate at a at a spiritual what I
call a multiverse level to help change things. We need
to work at a political economic level we need to
work at a scientific level, we need to work psychologically.
And as one of the things that one of the

(33:18):
things I learned from my disappearance, my disappearance was very
focused on you might say, the social world, on you know, politics, economics,
to some degree, on the transcendental and multiverse. And and
I realized that in order to really change things, you
also have to change yourself. You also have to have
awareness of who you are. And so that's why I
eventually became a psychologist, because I needed to figure that out.

(33:41):
It's funny, I was my first marriage. I remember. One
of the reasons why I became a psychologist because I
was tired of my wife knowing more about emotions and
you know, and doing circles around me interpersonally, you know,
because I was a typical bail idiot. So I decided

(34:01):
how to be. I don't like I don't like you know,
this sort of you know. And so that's one of
the reasons why I became a psychologist, so that I
could understand that way of being and also evolved and
help others.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
How did your disappearance play out in the eyes of
the world on the surface level.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Oh well, jeez, I mean, when I disappeared, there was
you know, uh, there were divers looking for me, helicopters.
And this is this is the part I feel very
remorseful about. I don't do guilt. I feel remorseful about
it that you know, I put my parents to hell
and my family and friends, and you know, I caused

(34:42):
a lot of uh, you know, a lot of disruption,
you know, and my my you know, disappearance which most
people thought I was dead. My mother didn't, but most
people thought I was dead. I went under the ice,
you know, created a lot of you know, a lot
of suffering for various people, and you know, and I
can't rationalize that. I can say, well, I was doing

(35:03):
it for a higher purpose, you know, I can say that,
but you know, the facts of the facts, you know,
that's that's what happened, you know, And so I regret
that to some you know, I create I feel remorseful
about that. On the other hand, where I was and
my Philo co conspirators, you know, we I think we
were doing the best we could with what where we
were at and what we were maybe destined to do,

(35:25):
you know. So you know, I never harmed anybody, you know,
when I disappeared nothing like that.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Ever, how far did the rest of your group get
with their objectives?

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Well, you know, we were only it was only fifteen months,
so not very far. But people were moving. They were
all moving in the directions they were supposed to, you know.
And then when I re emerged, they continued on their trajectories,
though not in the same way. And I think some
kind of got lost and became very thing we were against.

(36:02):
So odd way. Uh. Actually, even I after I re emerged,
and I could have believe this, but I got involved
in a financial center in downtown Boston and and the
you know, the corporate seat and everything. And don't ask
me why. It's because I think I was just trying
to you know, I was trying to balance kind of
what happened before, and I just wanted to be more legit,

(36:22):
you know, I wanted to follow more legitimate path and
and uh, and then it was funny. My I went
to a Christmas party. I was dancing too crazy, and
you know, the matter said, you know, don't do that.
And she called me office a couple of weeks later,
around after New Year's and she said, you know, Steve,
I really like you. You know, you're real smart, but
you're never gonna make it because people could see see

(36:43):
through the three piece suit, you know. And I said, yeah,
you're right, and I gave my notice. Two weeks later,
I went back to school.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
So how did your re emergence play out?

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's
a good question. So at the end, I decided that
I had to re emerge because basically the next list
Revolutionary Front was no more because I couldn't carry out
my side of what I was supposed to do because
I realized it was it would have changed me in
some terrible way, and that that was one of the weaknesses.

(37:14):
We were secretive. We should have been not secretive, and
you know, my life has been more about full transparency.
But you know, I re emerged. I needed to protect
my fellow conspirators and me, uh And so that's why
I said I was amnesic and I didn't remember anything,
and this is a way to protect everybody so they

(37:35):
could go on with their lives. And it was also
a way for me not to be defined by those
events either. But you know, I protected my fellow conspirators
because if it all came out, you know, who knows.
You know, there could have been a lot of very
negative implications with all that, and their lives would have
been more difficult to move forward. So after I re emerged,

(37:55):
which was difficult, I was very dissociative at the time.
It kind of taught the book you'll see you'll see
that kind of what's going on, and you know, with
sort of the energy shell beings and other things, and
you know, and my family was very happy to have
me back. My mother and father and family, you know,
accepted me back very lovingly, though I would say some

(38:18):
of the family were not you know, didn't believe the
story or you know, felt still kind of angry about
the whole thing. And I have recently talked to some
family and we've had some very interesting discussions around it
because it was clearly it was very traumatic for them,
and even my reemergence was traumatic for others. And so
I've been kind of dealing with that with that that

(38:40):
the book is out about it, But yeah, it was.
It was difficult because you know, I felt I had
failed in my mission, and even though I was glad
I failed, I felt I had failed. And so you know,
trying to get myself together was difficult, but eventually.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Let's talk a little bit more about some of the
information and downloads received from your experience. What are some
other bits of profound information that you've got during this
experience that we haven't gone over yet.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Well, I you know, again, it's sometimes it's kind of
hard to say what I got loaded and what I've
learned since then. But the I think we can enter
states of what's called, you know, scientists called quantum consciousness.
There's a lot of physicists who believe in quantum consciousness,
and quantum consciousness is when your brain reaches a state

(39:34):
that allows it to access the multiverse of the infinite
possibilities and quantum mechanics. You know, if an electron, if
it's not in relationship or interacting anything, could be anywhere
in the universe, and in fact is everywhere in the
universe until it interacts, and then we know where it
is or more probable where it is. So the more

(39:55):
interactions there are between things like a rock, you have
all these adams and molecules, they all interact and so
it stays the same over time at least, you know,
at least what we understand is time. Uh, And that's
called quantum decoherence. It stays the same. But when you
get a state of quantum consciousness, what happens is you quite,
you quiet the mind. Meditation can quiet the mind. It

(40:19):
can quiet the established neural nets and all the chatter.
And when it when so there's less connections. It's sort
of simplifies things. So then that then enables you then
to enter these other, these other dimensions into the multiverse.
And we do that without you know, dreams, Some dreams
have kind of multiverse qualities to it because the mind

(40:40):
is quieter, and then it has more accessible access to
these other worlds, though the access is always limited by
our cultural background, our knowledge, our personal history of what
we how we interpret it makes sense.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
I was going to ask you about dreams, but also
diferent types of altered states may be induced by psychedelics
if this is having the same effect on our consciousness
allowing access to some of these realms. I have had
plenty of experiences with psychedelics, but also have interviewed many

(41:19):
who are in the research space. Example, the recent experiments
being done on DMT and mapping the DMT realms, which
is fascinating that science is becoming aware not only aware,
but trying to explore the possibilities of accessing some of

(41:43):
these realms.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, science is
very important here because science is focused on methodologies and
procedures and replication and reliability. And I think, you know,
one of the things that I've been working on, I
call it constructive association, is kind of looking at the
different methods and et cetera from ancient traditions and spiritualities

(42:08):
like meditation, and trying to you know, take away the
cultural aspects and a lot of the you know, rich
some of the rituals, some of the things, so that
anyone can learn these things, anyone can traverse the multiverse.
And we do them dreaming. And the thing about psychedelics
is psychedelics I think works in the opposite way of
the way I'm talking about. I think things like meditation,

(42:28):
prayer help quiet the mind, and by quieting and having
these fewer connections, you can more enter a state of
quantum consciousness or what's in physics in terms of subatomic particles,
it is called quantum coherence. So you can be many places.
But I think psychedelics does the opposite. It floods the

(42:50):
mind with new information because all your neural nets are work,
are lit up, and by that inflaw, that influx that
overwhelm make information, it overwhelms the established neural nets, and
so then that enables you then to enter these other dimensions.
And so I think it's kind of the opposite. You

(43:12):
can see, you know sometimes you know, people can do
ecstatic dance and through that kind of ecstatic dancing, you know,
kind of get into places. And so there's kind of both.
There's kind of the more quiet approach you might say,
or quieting of the mind, and then there's the more
overloading the mind.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Let's get your thoughts into the nature of the human experience.
This is such a multi layered topic to try and explore.
But as it relates to contact with other intelligences, the multiverse,
different versions of ourselves, what could the purpose of this
experience be If we come into it and we have

(43:56):
no idea what we're doing. Basically, we come in with
a memory wipe and we have to figure it all
out ourselves. Certain people may have profound spiritual experiences contact
with other beings that give them clues and hints to
how to proceed in this realm. But do you think
this is a realm for our understanding, learning and growth

(44:18):
or something more that we don't understand.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Well, you know, it's I think it is an area
for growth and understanding. But you know, we're dealing with
things we might call it incomprehensible you know, for us
where we are, and so what it all really means,
you know, that's you know, that's hard to tell. I mean,
you know the analogy that people have made, these other analogies,

(44:42):
this analogy before in different ways. But you know, if
you have a blood cell running through your body, it thinks,
you know, if it had a consciousness, which because of
some sort it sees itself but doesn't realize it's part
of something bigger, you know. And and so we may
be part of things bigger we don't understand. And you know,
there's all kinds of religious interpretations of that and ideas

(45:06):
about what that might be. But you know, we haven't
got you know, any scientific evidence to support of that.
And I think that's one of the problems is that
a lot of a lot of the multiverse is going
to be incomprehensible. Actually this is based on you know,
kind of what we know and kind of the astrophysics
of the multiverse, but also I and a mathematician. We

(45:29):
developed two mathematical proofs that support the multiverse, and they're
based on Girdle's ideas of inconsistency and incompleteness, as everything
is inconsistent, incomplete, and contradictory. As he was. Girdle is
g O. D. E. D E. L. He was a
contemporary of Einstein, and basically he made everything uncertain, everything

(45:51):
is on, everything is changing. And so we took his
ideas and kind of said, well, our universe is incomplete,
then what's outside of that at other universe? And you
take that infinitely mathematically you then come up with the
theorem of totality, which is, in order for anything to exists,
the established, the imagine, and everything unimaginable must exist in

(46:11):
some way. So everything that even beyond what we can imagine,
the totally incomprehensible, exists in some way. At the same time,
we also developed the theorem called the thermal boundary conditions
that says that in order for anything to exist, it
has to have structure, it has to have limitations and boundaries.
So our structures and limitations boundary what we can access

(46:32):
and make sense of in the multiverse, you know, and
so there always be things that will be very incomprehensible.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
What are your thoughts of simulation theory some of the
newer theories that have been coming out about the nature
of reality. We're at a level of technology where this
is how we compare our reality to the level of
understanding we're at and that's what we're looking at it as.
But what are your thoughts on that theory?

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Well, you know, it's kind of goes back to the
movie The Matrix. That's that's kind of what where that
some of that comes from? Uh, and you know, it's
very possible we live in a matrix. You know. It's
you know, how can you argue against it? You know?
The thing is that the problem with theories is, you know,
from a scientific perspective, you have to be able to

(47:17):
test it, you have to be able to contradict it. Actually,
what people don't understand about science is science is based
on falsification, not confirmation. Science isn't based on confirmation biased
looking what you want. You're supposed to disprove what you're
trying to look at, and that's why it has to
reach a level of confidence that is beyond just chance.

(47:41):
But anyways, I don't get into the scientific theory, but
so you have to, you know, get into you have
to see, well, what's really going on here? Yeah, the
matrix we could be in one, you know, and maybe
in some ways we are. I mean, sometimes people have
all kinds of psychological insights or or what diverse experiences
that helped them see that the illusions we're in. You know,

(48:04):
we're in a lot of illusions in this world and dellusions,
and that sometimes can help us break through that. And
is that kind of a matrix? Yeah, I guess so
in a certain way, you know. I mean, look at
you know, we're a society that is destroying our planet
and probably destroying civilization, and yet somehow we're okay with it.

(48:26):
I mean, you know, we're all not okay with it,
but somehow it just keeps going on because at some
fundamental level we cannot we can't stop what we're doing.
And that's kind of a marix, that's sort of a matrix,
you know that.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Let's explore the current state of humanity where we're at now.
For the past few years, there has been what is
perceived to be an awakening people becoming aware of things,
people becoming aware of the level of corruption and how
much the system is anti human in a sense, and

(48:59):
this has caused a lot of upheaval, a lot of chaos,
a lot of distrust of our systems and government. And
on top of that, we're introduced to social media, AI
and these algorithms that keep people programmed in certain boxes,
and we're at a state of destruction and chaos. Honestly,
where our systems are breaking down. They can no longer

(49:22):
sustain themselves, and there's a level of psychosis for people
who are deeply programmed than trying to get answers basically,
what are your thoughts on where we're at and how
to navigate it?

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Well, we're at it's not very good. What you just
stay makes that very clear. I don't think people would
argue with that. Yeah, people have different takes, and there's
a lot of level there's a lot of denial about
what's going on, tremendous denial. But again, the denials there
is to maintain the power structures that are and then
you know, changing it is going to be very difficult.

(49:58):
I think the problem with with reform that's been going on.
If we look at let's say, distribution of wealth. You know,
this is this one thing is that you know, it
kind of changes things a little better, you know, but
the system continues, you know, the people who are very rich,
the people are very powerful. Yeah, maybe they give up
a little of their buddy, but the system doesn't change

(50:20):
and they continue to do what they want to do.
You know. So the Amazon's being destroyed, it has been
just you know, and still continue to be destroyed for
lumber and a variety of other things. And who cares
about the biosphere? Who cares about what else is there? Uh?
You know, it's all about making money and and power.
Power actually is a bigger one than money. And so

(50:41):
how do we change that? I think the way you know,
it's it's you know, there's there's a lot of good
critiques out there about what's going on in the world.
I mean, tremendous, brilliant books by brilliant authors, you know.
And you know, the problem though is I'm not really
seeing and I don't know if I really have anything here.
I hope I do. That's really constructive. How do we

(51:02):
how do we change things? How do we make things different?
And I think we begin to look at the very
kind of the way we think of economics as one
of them in governance and begin to change that. You know, people,
people are doing things, and we need to develop a
sense of community, you know, you know, for example, and

(51:22):
it sounds a little radical, but you know, people work
in a big corporation, you know, the I T. Corporation.
You know, why don't they just all get together, leave
the corporation or some of them and start a really
different way of doing business, you know, where everything is democratic,
total accountability, you know, you know, some very basis on

(51:45):
merit uh and and you know, and and get rid
of the overlords. I mean, there's there's no reason why
we can't do that. But it's very hard because as
time has gone on, community has broken down. Here we
have less and less trust in one another, and that
makes it difficult for people to do that. And you know,
who wants to give up their big bank accounts or
who will? You know, people are afraid, you know, and

(52:07):
you keep people in a state of fear, it's very
hard for them to trust others. You know, and you
know and and and you know, and so this is
this is the problem is we're social creatures, but the
system wants us to become asocial, as you call, dehumanized,
so that we then are more and more easily manipulated,
you know, and we need to get together. We need

(52:29):
to have you know, when you look at it, I mean,
why aren't there more unions? I mean, why aren't people
fighting back?

Speaker 1 (52:33):
What?

Speaker 2 (52:33):
You know? People can you hear them in Seattle. People
can't afford, you know, people working two or three jobs
to pay the rent and food and or credit card
you know, credit card mats. They can't survive, you know.
I mean it's but yet somehow, you know, when you
talk about, well, let's all get together and and develop
unions or do something, people can't. People can't seem to

(52:55):
be able to do it. They're they're terrified, and they've
also bought into the system. And we have, you know,
this addiction, and you know, through sports. I like sports too,
but people live through sports, they live through through social media,
they live through all these as if communities, and it's
we've we've learned to become a passive society. We've learned
not to take practice. Practice is an ancient Greek word

(53:16):
which means taking your thoughts and feeling what you feel
strongly about and trying to actualize it in the world
and do something, you know, whether it's politically, psychologically, spiritually,
and we become a very passive society that consumes, and
we we've lost the ability to go out and act. Yeah,
there are people still go out in act. We call
them entrepreneurs and maybe they get rich or you know,

(53:39):
people are doing things. There's a lot of ideas, a
lot of great scientists, you know, all sorts of stuff.
But it's it's very hard to change the system. But
we need to get back at our you know, at
what means to be a human being and begin to
reach out and care for what another. And that starts
in you know, in small ways.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
I think we've become too Comfortables has made us too
comfortable by what it has provided in the past. But
now the system is breaking down. It is no longer
sustainable to provide those handouts that kept everybody comfortable. And

(54:17):
it is a little chaotic at the moment. But I
think the only way to get to the other side
of it is to go through it and learn from
the chaos that we're experiencing right now.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Yeah. Well, unfortunately, sometimes you know, suffering can lead to change,
and you know, I don't want people to suffer. It's
not what my job is about and what I try
to do and what end suffering. But yeah, I don't.
Maybe if it sounds terrible, but if if things get worse,
then maybe people will do something about it. Maybe it's
not bad enough, whatever reason, it's not bad enough, you know.

(54:51):
I mean there are people doing things. You know, there
are still elections. There are people doing things that you know,
from small communities all the way up, so you know,
there is resistance, There is an a tempt to change,
you know, the probably I've read something recently by Bernie Sanders.
It was in the New York Times, and he was
talking about how the Democratic Party you know, lost its
way starting maybe with somebody with the Clintons before that,

(55:13):
and basically it aligned itself with corporate it and it's
lost its connection with the people. And you know, and
you know, when when when Democrats when when the other
party comes up with ideas to distribute wealth and the
Democrats tell, you know, the Democrats are in trouble, you know,
and you know, you know increase, you know, if they

(55:36):
can't pass a bill, you know, to charge wealthy people.
You know, only two or three percent. That's pretty pathetic.
You know, it needs to be thirty percent. You know,
what I'm saying needs to be much higher than two
or three percent. So, you know, and so there's a
lot of co opting that goes on. You know, this
is a problem we were facing back in nineteen seventy eight.
Is the way we saw things, which is why we

(55:58):
did what we did. Again, it means sounds like a rationalization,
but we didn't want to be co opted. We saw
people were co opted, you know, get into the system
and only care about making money and power and fuck everyone.
And then there were people who were reformers, glaid to
were reformers, but at some level they accept the basic
structure of things. You know, yeah there's still need. You know,
there's still zillionaires and the poor and the five percent

(56:21):
or ninety five percent of the wealth, and you know, yeah,
we can you know, change things a little bit here
and there, make things a little more democratic, a little
more eq And then you have people who are marginalized.
Another thing is we don't want to be marginalized. I
could have gone into academia. Actually I did go into
academia at some point in my life for about fourteen years.
But you know that's that's where you get rid of
people who have radical ideas. You marginalize them by putting

(56:43):
them in academia because you know, they could write all
kinds of interesting books and this and that, but they're marginalized,
you know. You know, Yeah, they have an audience of
some students or something, you know, so they get you know,
there's a lot of marginalization, or people get exploited. You know,
very intelligent people get sucked into very uh we'll say
evil corporations or things like that are doing bad things
and and their the corporations can you know, pay them

(57:05):
a lot of money but exploit their intelligence, you know.
So you know, it's very hard to change things because
we're being pulled in many different directions.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
And we're at a very interesting point. I'll say that
last few minutes we have tell us a little bit
about what's next for you?

Speaker 2 (57:22):
Oh, thank you. What's next for me is I'm trying
to get my next book out, The Multiverse Guide Humanity,
which is kind of looking at the multiverse and how
it can be used to make sense of our world
and help connection uh and and yeah, address some of
our human conflicts and help us, you know, we regain
what you were talking about, becoming more human, becoming a German,

(57:44):
and German it's more mentch, becoming a more of a
mensch uh and and so there's a lot in there.
And then I'm also working on a couple other books.
One is called The Saine Society and the Infinite Finite Personality,
where I kind of look at, you know, what we
can do to increase you might call uh kind of

(58:04):
a positive action in the world versus repressive action. There's
a lot of forms of repressive action. And it so
always happens when one world dominates another world, like the
scientific dominates the religious, the religious dominates another these these
or the economic. You know, when there's forms of domination
across systems, then you know this leads to all kinds

(58:24):
of form of oppressive action. And then another book I'm
working on is UH inter is Planetary Economics and Governance,
And that's kind of a reworking that's probably my most
ambitions in some ways most radical. Look it's really looking
at changing the way we think about economics the basic
right right at the most basic things like scarcity is

(58:46):
really an illusion. We live in a world of abundance.
You know, yet that's one of the primary concepts economists
talk about what's rational. What's rational in economic theory, standard
economic theory is total self interest goes against everything we
know in psychology, anthropology, and sociology. People are social creatures first,
and then you know, we are individuals and social creatures,

(59:08):
but we're not governed by extreme self interest. But yet
that's the basis of most economic theory, modern economic theory.
I mean, it's unbelievable how how much nonsense there is
in modern economic theory. And yet we have these priests,
you know, and people on the talk shows and you
know about you know, and they're the problem with economics

(59:28):
is no predictability. You can't predict history. And yet there's
all this attempts at prediction. And you know, by little
stories you get two hundred, you get two hundred economists together,
each had one of them, each has a prediction for
the future. One of them statistically is going to be right,
and that person gets an overprit. I don't mean that
the people get to know. But anyways, Yeah, so those

(59:51):
are some of the things I'm working in, and you
can find some of the stuff on my website. Stephen
Kobaki dot com. Just Stephen Kobaki dot com. So some
of that's on.

Speaker 1 (59:59):
There, excellent, and that is the best way for people
to find out mores from your website.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, from that website, and hopefull I'll be
getting some more things out in the future.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Well we will have links to that in the description. Stephen.
Thank you so much. Until next time, everyone, have an
excellent evening. We will talk again tomorrow. We'll see yelledn

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