April 8, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of The Advisory Board Podcast, host Dave Hansen sits down with the deeply insightful Mark Michael, Co-Founder and CEO of DevHub, a leading website platform purpose-built for multi-location and franchise brands.
Right off the bat, Mark brings the heat (and some serious shade game), challenging the franchise industry's outdated views on digital infrastructure. He explains why most franchise brands think they own their websites… but really don’t—and how that disconnect can cost them in agility, SEO, PPC effectiveness, and long-term growth.
From war stories about outdated systems (hello, Access databases 👀) to the power shift driven by AI and changing consumer behavior, this episode unpacks:
The real meaning of owning your website (hint: it’s about control, scalability, and future-proofing your marketing).
Why a sleek design doesn’t mean much if your customers can’t take action.
How AI is already transforming website content, user interaction, and backend updates.
Why the “all-in-one” marketing tech pitch may be doing more harm than good.
And how franchise brands can separate what’s flashy from what’s functional in their tech stack.
Mark also gives a behind-the-scenes look at DevHub’s evolution—from 15 years in white-label anonymity to becoming a direct powerhouse for franchise brands—powering systems like Authority Brands and Homefront Brands. His passion is palpable, his opinions are unfiltered, and his message is clear: the brands that own their digital presence will win the next decade.
Special thanks to our episode sponsor, ClientTether, for supporting this insightful conversation. ClientTether is helping franchise brands automate, communicate, and scale smarter.
👉 Don’t miss this one if you're ready to ditch the duct-tape tech stack, embrace scalable systems, and start treating your website like the digital HQ it really is.
Want to connect with Mark? You can find him at DevHub.com, on LinkedIn, or anywhere online as @gliderCEO.
Let us know what hit home for you in this episode!
Right off the bat, Mark brings the heat (and some serious shade game), challenging the franchise industry's outdated views on digital infrastructure. He explains why most franchise brands think they own their websites… but really don’t—and how that disconnect can cost them in agility, SEO, PPC effectiveness, and long-term growth.
From war stories about outdated systems (hello, Access databases 👀) to the power shift driven by AI and changing consumer behavior, this episode unpacks:
The real meaning of owning your website (hint: it’s about control, scalability, and future-proofing your marketing).
Why a sleek design doesn’t mean much if your customers can’t take action.
How AI is already transforming website content, user interaction, and backend updates.
Why the “all-in-one” marketing tech pitch may be doing more harm than good.
And how franchise brands can separate what’s flashy from what’s functional in their tech stack.
Mark also gives a behind-the-scenes look at DevHub’s evolution—from 15 years in white-label anonymity to becoming a direct powerhouse for franchise brands—powering systems like Authority Brands and Homefront Brands. His passion is palpable, his opinions are unfiltered, and his message is clear: the brands that own their digital presence will win the next decade.
Special thanks to our episode sponsor, ClientTether, for supporting this insightful conversation. ClientTether is helping franchise brands automate, communicate, and scale smarter.
👉 Don’t miss this one if you're ready to ditch the duct-tape tech stack, embrace scalable systems, and start treating your website like the digital HQ it really is.
Want to connect with Mark? You can find him at DevHub.com, on LinkedIn, or anywhere online as @gliderCEO.
Let us know what hit home for you in this episode!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Guys, I want to welcome you to another episode of
the Advisory Board podcast, where we bring in experts from
the franchise community to teach you how to avoid some
of the challenges and also build franchises that can scale
and last and provide value to the consumers, to the owners,
and to the franchise home office. I've got with me today,
Mark Michael, and you guys. I mean, you'll know him
because he's always dressed the nines and has sweet shades
(00:22):
on as he's in conferences, and he's also a fantastic
dude who just wants to do do it right for
brands and help him succeed. Mark, thanks for taking time
to join me in the show today.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I just like that you like content as much as
I do.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Thanks. Man. Well, today's kind of is going to be
good because when Mark and I we were at oh
unconference Park citys. Yeah, We're just chatting in the lobby
and he said some things that just caught my attention.
I thought, gosh, like people in the industry are not
thinking about websites and SEO the same way that Mark does.
And so I'm going to introduce him and then we're
(00:59):
going to to introduce the topic today, which is why
every franchise brand has to own their website. But it
doesn't mean what you think it means to own your websites.
A lot of you don't and so, uh, we're going
to dive into what that even means, but also why
it's so critical to success and long term stability for
your digital marketing strategies. But let's talk about Mark for
a second, because he's the co founder and CEO of
(01:21):
dev Hub and this is it's it's uh, you know,
they own the new websites guys, They're they're the leading
the developers and managers of franchise websites. Now they work
with brands like authority brands, homefront brands, but what their
strategy is to help franchise systems to own the domain,
own the content, own the website strategy. And it's such
(01:43):
a critical part of the digital marketing. We'll dive into that.
But but before before we before I flip it to Mark,
you also got to know that Mark's not just the
website guy. Like, there's so much more to say, own
their own technology. They've got tools that are going to
help streamline things. But he's also short story writer he
If you want to take a look at someone's work,
check out Travelers Rush. He's involved in fine arts, filmmaking, hospitality,
(02:06):
and working alongside his long term partner Ashley Hayes. So
really cool guy with a lot of dimensions. And he's
also stylish dudes, so if you're looking for a suit,
you might want to ask him for ideas because he
dress as well. So, Mark, now that I'm done being
a little pandering, here, tell us a little bit more
about you about dev hub, and then let's jump into
the topic.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Hey, everybody, Mark Minchael, Seattle, Washington, Arizona, and New York.
Dev Hub's physical offices are in Seattle, Washington. Have had
the same business partner since I'm seventy two, since I
since I'm seventeen forty two today. In general, this year
i'll turn forty three. The reason I say that at
(02:51):
all is because again, like you know, simple human, Unplanet
Earth with you at the same time, trying to do
good after having been behind the scenes lot of a
lot of the agencies you use, a lot of the
marketing technologies that you use, and to be front and
center with franchise brands, to be like, look the secret
to all of it is really having the best in
(03:14):
websites and not just checking the box like our websites
are done. And so if I'm here to say anything,
it's exceptional. Websites are only at dev hub. But of
course what else am I going to say as the
CEO co founder of devub. But I will lead you
there hopefully over the course of this and our other
(03:36):
interactions online.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, and also check out Mark's content guys online. He
does a lot. He does a great job getting interviews
with real people, having real discussions about real things. So yeah,
aside from today which will be real, take a look
at what he does there too. And Mark, let me
ask you this. So you've been involved in this space
for so long. Now, what's the landscape like today? Website management?
(04:01):
What are you seeing out there that reinforces what your
strategy is at dev hub?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
So yeah, okay, So here's how it goes or here's
how it's gone, and here's where it's going. Right. So,
for the first fifteen years, most of you were tuning
into this particular podcast or episode had never heard of
dev hub. About two years ago we decided we were
going to go direct to brand. So let me tell
you about the fifteen years prior. So we come from
(04:29):
the tech world. We are in the box of what's
called CMS, which is content management system, in the same
box as a squarespace, in the same box as a
word press, in the same box of probably another one
hundred plus vendors in the website space. The difference was
the way we went to market was through a white label.
(04:50):
So we white labeled to the socies of the world,
the chat meters of the world, and that seratives of
the world, the sprout loads of the world. We were
out there behind them. If you got micro scites, websites,
local pages finders, even corporate sitespit which we weren't really
doing at the time because they didn't want to offer that.
But whatever, we always had the capability, we were going
through them. They white labeled it, rebranded it as their
(05:12):
own product. It was all fine and good. Pandemic happens,
and you know, a lot of those, a lot of
those types of companies, agencies, other marketing technology tools are
running paid social listings, and a lot of brands wanting
to save money during that time, are like, well, we
want to shut off a lot of that. But guess what,
(05:33):
no one wanted to shut off obviously their websites. Now
at that time, we were like, oh my god, how
much more valuable is a website? Well said brands are
going to partners saying, hey, we want to integrate with
online ordering, O Loo, we want to integrate Service Titan,
service Mind, we want to integrate that. We want to
add ten more pages for a franchise e or a dealer,
and you know, all of these marketing tools agencies are like, well,
(05:57):
we are like basically widgets and we're not. We don't
do any customizations. Everyone gets the same box. And we
were like and it just kept happening and we're like,
come on, And then they were losing some of the brands,
which are ultimately we're coming off of dev Hub, and
we were like, oh, we can't let these people control
our destiny anymore. And so basically, end of twenty twenty three,
(06:18):
we basically burned the boats to all partners say it's over.
Some still stuck around, though for the record, they have
to tell everyone that they are powered by dev Hub.
And we said, we're going to go direct after franchise
brands because what's different about us versus WordPress? What's different
versus US versus squarespace is we are built for multilocation franchise,
(06:39):
so not multi site. A lot different, right because the
way we can leverage location data to push it to
your listings, to push it through you know, pull in
reviews based on the location is a lot different than
just multi managing multiple websites for pro you know, again
simplistic informational purposes again like a retail brand, and so
(07:00):
a retail brand that's focused only on e commerce, not locations.
And so that's what brought us up to today. So right,
the powers in the website, all the other stuff is
a commodity, like, okay, how do we sell that story?
So we started going after franchise brands saying, look, until
you own your website, you don't control your mark digital
marketing stack. Several I would say over thirty brands took
(07:25):
us up on that offer last year and a little
bit of a waiting lists going into or right now
in twenty twenty five. Where it's all really going is, obviously,
if you've heard anything about what's happened in the last
year plus, obviously with these large language models AI whatever
you want to call it, the website is truly the
(07:47):
source of truth of the content of what a customer
can expect when dealing with your brand. So, will there
be a place for a website in the next three,
four or five years our bed is duh, of course
there will be. Now, how the consumer gets to that
website that might change, but that content and the systems
built within that website need to be able to be
(08:09):
read by Again, whether it's a chat, GBT or cloud
on one end or the future wherever Google goes or
your voice device that gets more sophisticated or Goggle, should
they happen in any you know, actual rollout? And so
were we look at the site is like that source
of truth, that experience that your customers get. But again,
(08:32):
how do you make that like actually relevant to how
people are searching? And it's a never ending job. And
so today what's happening in franchise is a lot of
brands are like, we want to get our website built. Great,
let's talk about design. Let's talk about what platform you know,
and then let's talk about what features you want integrated. Well,
(08:53):
most agencies don't have actual developers, engineers, UX designers, support people,
customer success teams for just website. They have that to
manage your entire marketing stack, right, because you're getting your
listings from them, you're getting reviews, you're getting paid, you're
getting SEO, all this stuff. And so what's happening is
they're doing a website project. First off, it's taking over
(09:16):
a year to launch because it's like they don't know
how to manage websites. I mean, we're playing. And then
the second thing that's happening is essentially once the website's
launched a year later, it's already outdated. And then it's
like then they're just scrambling to do updates. They're getting
(09:37):
up charge managed services support. Those are taking a long time.
Now they have a backlog of fifty franchisees that they've
signed that are ready to go live. That is taking
them weeks to launch their websites. And it's just like
like yeah, and granted, yes you've got that cheaper, but
like at what headache? What time lost? What opportunity?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And so again, what is I think becoming more apparent
to a lot of the leaders enfranchise is like dev
hub is an evolving technology. So once you're on us,
like you're always on the latest version, you're not on
something that was bespoke built, not even purpose built, bespoke
built for your use case for the cheaper cost. Then
(10:22):
how it does to be frantically updated all the time
to make sure that it's relevant to just what franchises
are saying. But how about I, You're on a system
where you never had those support requests because here's why
what a franchises is potentially asking doesn't make sense. And
then we can talk about ANI stuff forever. But you know,
ultimately building that AI agent who's essentially your web developer
(10:43):
intat in house to be able to make those updates
in a simple chat prompt. So congrats, you didn't have
to wait forever to learn coding. It's now in a
simple prompt on your desktop global device.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah that's crazy. Well, I want to come back to
the AI stuff in a little bit, but I want
to make sure everyone heard a couple of key things
that I heard you say. And most people, I think
most people are aware that AI is becoming prevalent, but
a lot of people haven't noticed how prevalent it is
in web search, which means consumers finding you. And so
(11:16):
I want to go back to that for a second,
because what a lot of people don't know is number one.
Search engines now are all powered by AI, and the
AI bots are crawling your website differently than the old
SEO bots used to crawl the websites. They're looking for FAQ's,
they're looking for data structure that helps them to answer
questions with definitive answers, because usually that little summary box
(11:38):
is becoming more and more prevalent on mobile, on desktop,
the first thing that you find is the AI summary
when you search now on Google, unless you scroll past it.
But if you click on it then it'll actually have
links out to websites. But it's changing the way that
people are experiencing the web right now. Well, you have
to have a website, Yeah, you've got to have one always.
I don't think they'll ever go away, but it's becoming
(11:59):
not almost more of a to serve up the right content.
So the bots are recommending you versus them going to
your website directly like they used to.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So then and then one and then one layer. I
don't even know it's deeper. But then like imagine you're
a home service brand and you tell one day your
AI agent pin glasses watch whatever ends up being Hey,
you know one, you're talking to it differently, so you're saying, hey,
(12:27):
I clogged my drain because you know my daughter son
or I accidentally threw a lot of paper towels down
the drain. I have people coming over in four hours.
I need this resolved. I needed done someone obviously to
come today again. So that agent essentially is going on
the web. Your personal assistant is going out on the
(12:49):
web and looking for Okay, who is that potential plumber?
Can I book that plumber off of their website? So
one to have a native integration, whether you're a day spa,
a plumber, you know, online ordering, if you're fast food
or you know, fast casual or whatever type of restaurant,
like being able to take the action natively within your
(13:10):
website versus just a form that gets filled out. I
mean again, it's like being able to take the action
on the website. So reading the website, yes, but then
being able to take the action and having the content
to know that the action they're taking is going to
get me ultimately the end consumer. The result a case,
(13:31):
somebody to show up in four hours before people come
over and be confident that someone is actually coming. Yeah,
And so.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
That's a major shift though with that whole concept.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh my god, it's take action.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
We used to it used to all be about the funnel,
like get as many people in the funnel as you
can at the top, who care if they're interested or
ready or whatever, just capture their info. And we're moving
away from that whole mindset to how do we get
the right people on the website and if they're ready,
then how do we get them to buy now or
transact now we're scheduled now, or take whatever action is that?
Do you think they want to do if you're in
(14:04):
e commerce site, by the widget now right. I think
they've been doing that for years, but service industry has
struggled with that concept, I think for a long time.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Honestly, it's all broken. It's honestly, it's so I mean,
guess me. I was on a hotel website and I
wanted to find out, like what's the number for the restaurant,
and it's like they're constantly pushing you to like book
a hotel. But it's like corporate, so it's like Marriott,
but it's like also boutique. It's just it's all broken.
(14:33):
Retail is broken, Like I want to know if this
shoe is in this location so I can go get
it before the party, I need to go to the
fact that we can't even do that today in any
like trustworthy fashion. So again we go to Amazon. Hope
to god they can deliver either the same day or
the next day. And that's why Amazon just keeps winning,
you know. And again when I we went down this
(14:54):
rabbit hole pretty hard a couple of years ago, it's
essentially like, you know, some of the largest companies are
still running off of spreadsheets and archaic you know, pos
systems that are just like, don't talk to the other system.
But what I think will could happen is again some
(15:14):
of the ais that are coming out being able to
actually conduct all the systems, no matter how archaic they are,
as long as they could be read like you almost
didn't have to if you waited long enough, like you're okay,
should be We'll see it'll be interesting.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah. I ran into a lady the other day who
was running her franchise off of an access database.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I haven't even heard of the word access. Yeah A
long time.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I mean, I was working for a Microsoft partner. We
end of life. The exams for access like seventeen years
ago because it was wasn't relevant.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
So I don't do the same joke. You're walk into
a bank. They're still running windows.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
XP they are banks and insurance companies. But let's not
go down that rabble hole.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
No, no, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
But all right, so let's talk about this one other
thing that I want to make sure we pull out of.
What Mark's talking about today is is the value of
owning the website. But they're like everyone on this who's
listening probably think why own my website? But not really?
So can you maybe explain maybe a way or deeper, Mark,
what do you mean by you've got to own your website?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right? So there's a couple of layers. So look, the
most simplest version is, should you want him leave your
current vendor, You're not gonna lose any legacy CEO, You're
not gonna you don't have a fear of your website
being turned off, right, Like, you own your website, so
(16:42):
if you decide to leave, you can leave. So one,
it's like almost like a contractual thing more than the
technological thing. But regardless, they play together. So one we
always say like you own your website because the content's yours.
Everything you do on the website's yours. The same way
we would migrate somebody to dev hub is we make
it even probably easier to migrate off of dev hub.
(17:05):
The other part of owning the website is like, again,
you have fifty franchises, ten, five, three that need to
launch their website. Like you understand that that should only
be like maybe an hour of work. Again, that's like
five ten. I mean one should be in theorious skeleton
(17:26):
bones up and running within five ten minutes. If you
have to put in a support request and wait three weeks,
you don't on your website. Yeah, your agency does, and
they're looking for somebody to figure out how to spin
up that other website, like it's crazy. And then if
you're by the way, you're getting charged for that time.
(17:47):
You're also you don't know on your website. So it's
like there's like it's it's in that vein one. Everything
should be portable. You shouldn't be scared of a contract.
You own your website. It's not like someone can be like,
we're just gonna shut it off if you don't, you know,
because you're leaving us. It's like, no, you should be
able to leave it at any time. All data should
be portable. And then the second part is like again
(18:08):
like the limitations of you you all being able to
either add pages, add in new franchise, natively integrate with
something h you know, taking advantage of you know, I
want to push this promo because something has happened in
this part of the world or part of the even
(18:29):
the US, and like that task is not like we
need to think about that four hour, you know, four
weeks from now, so we need to plan it from now,
but ultimately you can get done within the same timeframe
to actually take advantage of the opportunity. Like so being
able to move quickly with your website, Yeah, it's all.
(18:50):
It's all of that means owning it, like physically owning it.
You own your domain name anyway, like so you can
point it wherever you need to point it.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
But yeah, yeah, no, I love I love the what
what you're sharing is spot on because if you're not
you're not able to react to the market. The market's
moving fast. So if you're not able to take advantage
of of a promo, concept of a keyword.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
That it's like like I'll just say like this, I
don't care. I'm gonna put out this video myself. Is
like earlier today we shared with some of our clients customers,
here's how today you can use within dev hub and
one in autn't care. One in home services. Home services
was like, so the example they gave was like, if
(19:34):
there's this type of bug that's being reported in the
Northwest and you know, it's eating some type of tree
or flower, whatever the hell, Like, you're telling me that
I can go into dev hub, ride up that blog
post and push it out to all the branches of
you know, our locations in the Northwest in five minutes.
(19:56):
And it's like yeah, And that was like, holy shit, Right,
I don't to code anything. I can literally just take
advantage of the opportunity, right auto same thing. So, if
there's this recall, right, and I need to like let
people know at that this location is servicing that recall,
(20:17):
I can go into a chat interface and say update
this one location with this recall or update all of
them on the Eastern seaboard because salt affected blah blah
blah blah blah. Yeah, Like there's no agency call anymore,
there's no more looking at your web developer. If you
don't want to like you and I can do it.
That's that is the future. Yeah, and so that's why
(20:40):
franchise brands would have help will win. Yeah, and I didn't.
I didn't. Look I'm not holding back obviously right now,
and I'm supposed to like regulate my voice, but I
can hopefully people understand it as excitement and passion and
not like arrogance. But regardless, it's like I'm unfortunately a
very my probably character laws that I'm fiercely loyal and
(21:03):
the brands customers who choose dev Hub, I mean, like
we're going to make sure they win against anybody who's
not on dev Hub. That's how I feel. And it's
disgusting because it's like it's a little bit evil in
the sense of like sorry, like you didn't choose us,
so go figure it out on your own. And by
the way, when you come back, I don't even know
(21:24):
if we're going to keep you. You know, Keith, have
you know? I wish we could build that company, but
we'll take them up.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
No, but I appreciate it. You should be fierce about
your your ability to help your clients be successful. I
have zero I don't think you need to hold back
or apologize about that at all.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Well, again, I think that what I heard at young
un conference, which was a weird one for me. I had.
You know, I've been on the conference circ now almost
two years. This will be the third year, and I've
got I go to what like six a year. I
think it is roughly the first time I ever heard this.
And I'm asking you, Dave, you tell me if you've
heard it. The problem with franchise, it's don't we're a vendor, right,
(22:06):
we're websites, right, But the problem in franchise is most
all the technology is old. And I was like what,
and they're like yeah, like most of the systems that
a franchise brand is using franchise or franchising is like old.
And again I know nothing beyond digital marketing, which to
(22:27):
me is always kind of I don't know how it
can be old on that front. On the website, I
do know, right, you've got to installed two years ago.
You know, you have a backlog of stuff that you're
just ignored. But like, talk to me, is that true?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Oh yeah, no, we see it.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Like what does it mean?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
It means that? Well, so, because enfranchising isn't an industry, right,
this is this is a cross section of one hundred industries.
But the franchise business model requires unique functionality that very
few technologlogy platforms can service. And so what it means
is people will customize old, old systems and they get
(23:06):
stuck on them because they're like, oh, well, we used
access to build this database fifteen years ago, and we
build this custom wedget in it so now it works
to support our multi unit strategy. And so we run
into this kind of stuff all the time. People operating
off of spreadsheets, I mean CRM side right, or they're
trying to use like some old dog VRM like a
Salesforce or a HubSpot, and I think those are good CRMs,
(23:28):
but they're like they're trying to like bastardize tools to
make them sort of work to support this unique data mode.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
They're doing it because they don't know better, or you
think they're doing it because like they just want the
lowest cost.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Most of the time, well, I would say one a
lot of them are ignorant, right, they don't realize that
there are solutions that are designed to do what they
need help with, like a dev hub or a clientet
or whatever. But they're also they they're being steered down
a convenient path by partners, right, So they're marketing people
out there, they're like, oh, you got to use HubSpot.
But but what they won't say is we only know
(24:01):
how to work with that platform, so we won't try
to work with anything else, or we only or like
systems integrators, they get pulled into franchising, they're just they're
resellers for Salesforce, and so they're like, well, the only
way that you can make this work is with Salesforce,
and don't even know that other platforms exist that do
it out of the box, right. So that those are
a couple of things that I see that are kind
(24:23):
of rampant in the industry. Is just kind of ignorance
and not not reaching out to see what is actually
out there. And also third parties that are that are
coming in and just kind of trying to apply things
that worked in the automotive industry that don't work en
franchising or wherever they come from, right, They're they're just
trying to drag in tools that don't belong. So those
are the two big things that I see that are
(24:46):
creating some of these system issues and they're also technologies
in this industry that are old, right, that are really old,
and they've acquired technologies that are even older and they're
still around. And so you know, I know that they're
constantly working to try to update themselves. But when you're
you're running on on rails that are that are twenty
years old, you're gonna have issues with your tech your
(25:06):
tech stack. Yeah, that's interesting, not a not a wrong statement,
although I will say, you know, guys like you, guys
like us, we're trying to modernize as fast as we can.
In this space, it's very slow to adopt change.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah. Again, I think it's sometimes I think it's slow
because of dollars, right, And so there's obviously like priority,
like how valuable is a website when you know, oh
it's these guys are saying it's one hundred thousand, but
my friend says it's like eight. It's like, so what
am I missing?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Right? And yeah, I mean it's like that's the question
I guess they should be asking. It's like how wait,
what's the difference then? Because it can't be just price,
Like what has to be adding that value that's not
there at eight thousand or ten thousand, and that's there
at a hundred, you know. And again what I'll say
(26:03):
is like, that's why I was so grateful today. It's
funny this podcast is coming after again we released all
these AI things with Deva with some of our choice
customers today and to see them, I don't be as
excited as I am, you know, and knowing that like
the loyalty, like the we want you to win, but
you know, but really going even before that was like
(26:24):
again taking a chance on us, right, Like literally our
coming out was essentially last year, like truly last year.
I think toward the end of twenty twenty three fine,
but like in terms of launching was all the first quarter,
second quarter, third quarter, fourth quarter of twenty twenty four
where our work is into in the wild, where we
actually have clients define is the sickest d D and uh.
(26:48):
And so for them, I'm insanely grateful right for taking
that chance to be like, yeah, I know you guys
might be more expensive, but it seems like you know
what you're doing. I don't know what the hell you're
talking about, but it feels like this is right, you know,
like that, you know, like it was crazy on them
you know. But ultimately, I think today I think they realize, oh,
(27:12):
I'm on a framework, I'm on a platform. I'm on
like something that's like releasing every week, something that's making
my life it's easier, you know, and it's like, oh,
that's the difference between one hundred and ten thousand, you know,
and anyway, it's just.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
You'll also find a lot of the younger brands they
don't have budgets, right, Like, they don't have the budget
to invest heavily or do you really think strategically. They're
just like, well, we're so tight, let's just get the
least expensive thing we can find. So a lot of
the younger brands, you have to clean up a lot
of messes where they're like we got grasshopper and pipe
driving like and zap here, and they start just cobbling
(27:49):
together these you know, these crappy solutions that sort of
got them to ten units. But then they're like, oh, no, like.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
We do well, we'll be funny day. Whenever you post this,
you know, I'll also post on because somebody in our
one of our customers was talking about that. And then again,
I'm not the smart one. I up luckily is where
I can be out here just like talking essentially like
this is that the people that are backing it up,
you know. But someone was talking about how again, some
of these AI tools can now connect those systems, and
(28:20):
I want to say, like better than Zappier, but again,
like I don't know what I'm saying, so I gain,
I'll release a video roughly at the same time.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, yeah, and point and if you find any that
are really really good, I mean, man, that's you know,
even it's crazy, but having really robust, open documented APIs
with a postman so people can test their connections into
our platforms, like you would think that we were the
first ones to slice bread, you know, it was. It's crazy.
When we talked to these brands, We're like, well we
can't do that with this platform or that platform. But
(28:51):
having a having AI that is really good at connecting
into APIs or like tying into platforms at at a
code level, send anything my way, you got, because our
goal is to keep our platform as modern and fast
and nimble as possible. Yeah, let's shift. I want to
I want to go back to our topic and kind
of wrap up on a few thoughts. One thing that
(29:11):
I thought about when you and I had our conversation
in Park City, is that that not not owning your
website actually creates a lot of disparity across You mentioned
the risk right if you say I need to switch suppliers,
they're not. They're no longer servicing my need to to
get the se O up today. They're they're really difficult.
It takes three to four days to just get a
(29:31):
website updated for a franchise. Franchise it's got a new
thing that's urgent in their territory, or or or like
the PPC performance isn't as good as I thought it was,
but I can't like having everything wrapped into a single
partner seems super appealing because there's one bill to pay,
one throat to choke, but that actually creates a lot
(29:52):
of challenges across the board. So I was wondering if
maybe it's kind of a wrap up thought today, would
you maybe highlight like why why is having a great
website so critical to your SEO strategy and your PPC
strategy and you know, and why is it good to
separate the two Because there's so much all in one
talk right now that it kind of drives me crazy
(30:13):
because I don't need my I don't need my CRM
to turn on my toaster into like no, no, Like, do
you need specialist partners that are great at something rather
than just generalists that are okay at everything? So maybe
could you could you share some thoughts on that which
you've observed in this in this world.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Of tech in a in a way, I would say
it's probably similar to you said, like, you know the
systems integraders consultants who who are like have some weird
affinity to some tool. And so again in all in one,
(30:55):
whether that's through an agency or even a platform. Again,
like are they really good at six things? Eight things?
And knowing that they're maybe failing in one two, I mean,
it doesn't give you the confidence in the other four
or five. And so you know, I'm just gonna say
(31:18):
it like this, and I probably shouldn't tonight. I don't.
I don't think I can get in trouble. But I
guess you never know how this lives on the internet.
But I'll just say like this, there's just a lot
of shitty marketers out there. And so as a franchise
or who you surround yourself with in the team in
leadership to make decisions right, and yes, sometimes things cost more,
(31:43):
but again, like we all know the cliche, you get
what you pay for it like matters, and so you know,
it's like, you know, I sympathize with like the emerging,
right who are like call it? I mean again, we
were emerging to me still like under one hundred, but
let's say under one hundred under twenty, where again there
(32:04):
is an appeal of all in one because it is
one throat to choke. But again it's when those support
requests are coming in like hey, I you know my
location or territory is live, but my website is not
appearing in search, or hey I'm paying two thousand dollars
to this agency and my AD is not even coming
(32:26):
up for my name right, or you know my listing
information is wrong and that's all being handled by like
a person like you put three, four, five of those
support requests for just one franchise and now you have
twenty or one hundred. Do you think that where are they?
How much staff do you think they have to support
(32:47):
that along their other customers? Right? Right? And so again
when I say about you know, leaders in marketing at
these companies like yeah, essentially over twenty. Let's say you
do need to build a digital marketing stack, right, and
again I don't think you need to go more than
three probably four vendors, right, And what we say and
(33:10):
again it's it's true, but you'll learn it one way
or another that the website is the heart of it.
So then we're using for paid, we're using for advanced SEO, social, CRM,
lead route, like you're picking the and some of those
can have two three things that they're good at. That's fine,
But I don't know how you can be good at
paid potentially SEO content, which I think is going to
(33:32):
be a whole different field than this second listings reviews,
also lead routing, also your chatbot, also your social and
they're running your website like I don't get it, Like,
and there's a platform like you guys out there who
are really good at what you do, and there's a
platform like we really so when there is something potentially
broken and potentially have the expert in the room to
(33:54):
talk to. Now the expert is failing, you get rid
of them, you know, but you're not having to be
like figuring out how to unwind all of this stuff.
And again, the graphic that we used to pitch that
I think fell short of communicating. This idea was like,
(34:15):
there's like the it was like about I don't know,
a year ago or maybe it's maybe it's updated every year,
but it's the mark mark tech marketing technology landscape graphic, right.
And when we first started in the space, there was
I don't know, a thousand or one hundred. Now there's
like I think twelve or fourteen thousand marketing technologies out
(34:36):
there that service brands of all shapes and sizes. Like
do you think that these companies can even exist without
being really good at that thing that they do versus me? Like,
I'm gonna go build the all in one and I
do all of it, you know. The all in one
to me is a rat race built by investors to
squeeze more revenue out of franchise brands, multilocation brands, any
(34:59):
of their custom Let's just keep stuffing more products in
there so we can get more money from these people.
And it's like, again, good luck, you know, but ye
know ULTI people will get what are you paid for it?
And so yeah, I don't know. Somewhere there was an
answer and it should be obvious as hell, but again, like,
you know, I wanted to say one thing sort of
related but not really. It was like, you know, we're
(35:22):
talking about AI AI, yeah, and I was like, I'll
just say it like this, Like I didn't realize probably
till today, that some people are actually scared of it,
and I've been like kind of like really bullish on it,
and I think it's like scared of it, like if
I don't think about it, it's going to go away.
(35:45):
And it's like I don't think it works like that.
But again, that's the reason I love content, the reason
why I love we've been doing, like the podcast is
like that's how I'm as a you know, ten fifty
six am on April third, you know, that's the feeling
subject to change in the next minute, So don't quote me.
But it's like I didn't realize that there is a
(36:06):
contingent of people who are actually scared and so are
just doing the thing that feels safe for today, but
they're just going to create more work literally tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
So yeah, anyway, yeah, no, I feel you. It's funny
because in the marketing space, especially like we're talking about
websites and content and things that we know AI is
really good at enfranchising. I've seen executives, even really smart
people that are afraid of of the hallucination side of AI,
Like they're like, well, I can't trust that because you
(36:39):
know it might it might hallucinate and then create something.
We're regulated industry on the frand absite blah blah blah.
That's a valid concern and you can control that if
you understand AI well enough, right, But the other side
of it is, oh crap, I have a team of
thirty people supporting seventeen brands. What's going to happen to
their jobs? And we I mean, we talked about it earlier.
(37:00):
But I think that's the other thing that scares people
is it's going to take over, and then they start
questioning if they're in the matrix, like I mean, I mean,
it's not real. Neither one of those is real, right,
But they they just they don't understand that it's just
going to move menial tasks off of their team's plates
and let their people work on those tasks that they
wish they had more time to work on every day.
If they leverage it right, you know, if they leverage
(37:21):
it right. But yeah, I think that that's sad. Sadly
based mostly in ignorance, and if they were to take
the time to dig into it, they would find that
the AI has.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I'll tell you that, I'll show you, I'll show you.
I don't think it'll translate. Right, So, because what was
kind of a weird realization is where people put value
on websites, and that only happened in the last again,
not people true leaders who choose DEVA or like Deva,
I'm choosing you because you're the best, go for it,
do your thing, tell us what works right. But again
(37:54):
you do run into leaders and franchiser like I know
what works best, you know with web sites, which I
don't understand how they do. And they're like, I want
my website to be like the best designed website. And
I'm like, I think people forget like their website is
essentially on this device. It's not on this desktop. It's
not here. It's right here, right now, it's right here,
(38:16):
it's not here, it's not here, it's right here. And
so this is what this is the example I gave
to a brand to like, I want a really nice,
pretty website. I'm like, this is what people would consider
like pretty. There's like no and there's like they're trying
to be the luxury you can't really see. It's kind
of a shitty. Big point is there's no action to
take on this, just a really unique graphic. And then
(38:40):
here's like essentially like the four Seasons, which you can't
really tell. All of those buttons right there are all
called the action. You want to go log it, you
want to go do this thing, you want to go
do this thing you want. So there's a way to
blend good design, you know, but with like some set
of who you are as the brand. But again for
(39:04):
a leader double down bank, you guys don't know how
to design design. It's like no, because we're also thinking
about how do you drive leads to take it right?
How is this going to look on mobile? Not the
mock ups that you're getting from a design agency that's
like this would be really cool if its animated graphic.
I'm like, do you realize if you have a pop
up on your mobile device you suck? But it's like
(39:27):
they don't want to hear it. And so anyway, yeah,
this was great, Dave, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Man.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Well, Mark, thanks for making time guys. If actually, if
you don't mind, Mark, if somebody wants to find you,
what's the best way for them to connect? LinkedIn or
email or what's the best way?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I mean, I think I'm pretty open about it. But again, yes,
devhub dot com, forward slash contact or demo or just
look up Mark Michael on LinkedIn, drop me an email
on social everything is that Glider CEO. That's Glider g
l I d e R CEO, Chief executive officer or
whatever the hell it is nowadays, And uh yeah it's
(40:03):
I'm out there, Mark Michael Seattle, Mark Michael Deva. You'll
find me and get in touch. And you know this
is the best time to be alive right now.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, I agree. There's a lot of great stuff happening. Mark,
thanks for being on. I sure appreciate all the content.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Cool. Yeah, thanks d
Guys, I want to welcome you to another episode of
the Advisory Board podcast, where we bring in experts from
the franchise community to teach you how to avoid some
of the challenges and also build franchises that can scale
and last and provide value to the consumers, to the owners,
and to the franchise home office. I've got with me today,
Mark Michael, and you guys. I mean, you'll know him
because he's always dressed the nines and has sweet shades
(00:22):
on as he's in conferences, and he's also a fantastic
dude who just wants to do do it right for
brands and help him succeed. Mark, thanks for taking time
to join me in the show today.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I just like that you like content as much as
I do.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Thanks. Man. Well, today's kind of is going to be
good because when Mark and I we were at oh
unconference Park citys. Yeah, We're just chatting in the lobby
and he said some things that just caught my attention.
I thought, gosh, like people in the industry are not
thinking about websites and SEO the same way that Mark does.
And so I'm going to introduce him and then we're
(00:59):
going to to introduce the topic today, which is why
every franchise brand has to own their website. But it
doesn't mean what you think it means to own your websites.
A lot of you don't and so, uh, we're going
to dive into what that even means, but also why
it's so critical to success and long term stability for
your digital marketing strategies. But let's talk about Mark for
a second, because he's the co founder and CEO of
(01:21):
dev Hub and this is it's it's uh, you know,
they own the new websites guys, They're they're the leading
the developers and managers of franchise websites. Now they work
with brands like authority brands, homefront brands, but what their
strategy is to help franchise systems to own the domain,
own the content, own the website strategy. And it's such
(01:43):
a critical part of the digital marketing. We'll dive into that.
But but before before we before I flip it to Mark,
you also got to know that Mark's not just the
website guy. Like, there's so much more to say, own
their own technology. They've got tools that are going to
help streamline things. But he's also short story writer he
If you want to take a look at someone's work,
check out Travelers Rush. He's involved in fine arts, filmmaking, hospitality,
(02:06):
and working alongside his long term partner Ashley Hayes. So
really cool guy with a lot of dimensions. And he's
also stylish dudes, so if you're looking for a suit,
you might want to ask him for ideas because he
dress as well. So, Mark, now that I'm done being
a little pandering, here, tell us a little bit more
about you about dev hub, and then let's jump into
the topic.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Hey, everybody, Mark Minchael, Seattle, Washington, Arizona, and New York.
Dev Hub's physical offices are in Seattle, Washington. Have had
the same business partner since I'm seventy two, since I
since I'm seventeen forty two today. In general, this year
i'll turn forty three. The reason I say that at
(02:51):
all is because again, like you know, simple human, Unplanet
Earth with you at the same time, trying to do
good after having been behind the scenes lot of a
lot of the agencies you use, a lot of the
marketing technologies that you use, and to be front and
center with franchise brands, to be like, look the secret
to all of it is really having the best in
(03:14):
websites and not just checking the box like our websites
are done. And so if I'm here to say anything,
it's exceptional. Websites are only at dev hub. But of
course what else am I going to say as the
CEO co founder of devub. But I will lead you
there hopefully over the course of this and our other
(03:36):
interactions online.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, and also check out Mark's content guys online. He
does a lot. He does a great job getting interviews
with real people, having real discussions about real things. So yeah,
aside from today which will be real, take a look
at what he does there too. And Mark, let me
ask you this. So you've been involved in this space
for so long. Now, what's the landscape like today? Website management?
(04:01):
What are you seeing out there that reinforces what your
strategy is at dev hub?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
So yeah, okay, So here's how it goes or here's
how it's gone, and here's where it's going. Right. So,
for the first fifteen years, most of you were tuning
into this particular podcast or episode had never heard of
dev hub. About two years ago we decided we were
going to go direct to brand. So let me tell
you about the fifteen years prior. So we come from
(04:29):
the tech world. We are in the box of what's
called CMS, which is content management system, in the same
box as a squarespace, in the same box as a
word press, in the same box of probably another one
hundred plus vendors in the website space. The difference was
the way we went to market was through a white label.
(04:50):
So we white labeled to the socies of the world,
the chat meters of the world, and that seratives of
the world, the sprout loads of the world. We were
out there behind them. If you got micro scites, websites,
local pages finders, even corporate sitespit which we weren't really
doing at the time because they didn't want to offer that.
But whatever, we always had the capability, we were going
through them. They white labeled it, rebranded it as their
(05:12):
own product. It was all fine and good. Pandemic happens,
and you know, a lot of those, a lot of
those types of companies, agencies, other marketing technology tools are
running paid social listings, and a lot of brands wanting
to save money during that time, are like, well, we
want to shut off a lot of that. But guess what,
(05:33):
no one wanted to shut off obviously their websites. Now
at that time, we were like, oh my god, how
much more valuable is a website? Well said brands are
going to partners saying, hey, we want to integrate with
online ordering, O Loo, we want to integrate Service Titan,
service Mind, we want to integrate that. We want to
add ten more pages for a franchise e or a dealer,
and you know, all of these marketing tools agencies are like, well,
(05:57):
we are like basically widgets and we're not. We don't
do any customizations. Everyone gets the same box. And we
were like and it just kept happening and we're like,
come on, And then they were losing some of the brands,
which are ultimately we're coming off of dev Hub, and
we were like, oh, we can't let these people control
our destiny anymore. And so basically, end of twenty twenty three,
(06:18):
we basically burned the boats to all partners say it's over.
Some still stuck around, though for the record, they have
to tell everyone that they are powered by dev Hub.
And we said, we're going to go direct after franchise
brands because what's different about us versus WordPress? What's different
versus US versus squarespace is we are built for multilocation franchise,
(06:39):
so not multi site. A lot different, right because the
way we can leverage location data to push it to
your listings, to push it through you know, pull in
reviews based on the location is a lot different than
just multi managing multiple websites for pro you know, again
simplistic informational purposes again like a retail brand, and so
(07:00):
a retail brand that's focused only on e commerce, not locations.
And so that's what brought us up to today. So right,
the powers in the website, all the other stuff is
a commodity, like, okay, how do we sell that story?
So we started going after franchise brands saying, look, until
you own your website, you don't control your mark digital
marketing stack. Several I would say over thirty brands took
(07:25):
us up on that offer last year and a little
bit of a waiting lists going into or right now
in twenty twenty five. Where it's all really going is, obviously,
if you've heard anything about what's happened in the last
year plus, obviously with these large language models AI whatever
you want to call it, the website is truly the
(07:47):
source of truth of the content of what a customer
can expect when dealing with your brand. So, will there
be a place for a website in the next three,
four or five years our bed is duh, of course
there will be. Now, how the consumer gets to that
website that might change, but that content and the systems
built within that website need to be able to be
(08:09):
read by Again, whether it's a chat, GBT or cloud
on one end or the future wherever Google goes or
your voice device that gets more sophisticated or Goggle, should
they happen in any you know, actual rollout? And so
were we look at the site is like that source
of truth, that experience that your customers get. But again,
(08:32):
how do you make that like actually relevant to how
people are searching? And it's a never ending job. And
so today what's happening in franchise is a lot of
brands are like, we want to get our website built. Great,
let's talk about design. Let's talk about what platform you know,
and then let's talk about what features you want integrated. Well,
(08:53):
most agencies don't have actual developers, engineers, UX designers, support people,
customer success teams for just website. They have that to
manage your entire marketing stack, right, because you're getting your
listings from them, you're getting reviews, you're getting paid, you're
getting SEO, all this stuff. And so what's happening is
they're doing a website project. First off, it's taking over
(09:16):
a year to launch because it's like they don't know
how to manage websites. I mean, we're playing. And then
the second thing that's happening is essentially once the website's
launched a year later, it's already outdated. And then it's
like then they're just scrambling to do updates. They're getting
(09:37):
up charge managed services support. Those are taking a long time.
Now they have a backlog of fifty franchisees that they've
signed that are ready to go live. That is taking
them weeks to launch their websites. And it's just like
like yeah, and granted, yes you've got that cheaper, but
like at what headache? What time lost? What opportunity?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And so again, what is I think becoming more apparent
to a lot of the leaders enfranchise is like dev
hub is an evolving technology. So once you're on us,
like you're always on the latest version, you're not on
something that was bespoke built, not even purpose built, bespoke
built for your use case for the cheaper cost. Then
(10:22):
how it does to be frantically updated all the time
to make sure that it's relevant to just what franchises
are saying. But how about I, You're on a system
where you never had those support requests because here's why
what a franchises is potentially asking doesn't make sense. And
then we can talk about ANI stuff forever. But you know,
ultimately building that AI agent who's essentially your web developer
(10:43):
intat in house to be able to make those updates
in a simple chat prompt. So congrats, you didn't have
to wait forever to learn coding. It's now in a
simple prompt on your desktop global device.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah that's crazy. Well, I want to come back to
the AI stuff in a little bit, but I want
to make sure everyone heard a couple of key things
that I heard you say. And most people, I think
most people are aware that AI is becoming prevalent, but
a lot of people haven't noticed how prevalent it is
in web search, which means consumers finding you. And so
(11:16):
I want to go back to that for a second,
because what a lot of people don't know is number one.
Search engines now are all powered by AI, and the
AI bots are crawling your website differently than the old
SEO bots used to crawl the websites. They're looking for FAQ's,
they're looking for data structure that helps them to answer
questions with definitive answers, because usually that little summary box
(11:38):
is becoming more and more prevalent on mobile, on desktop,
the first thing that you find is the AI summary
when you search now on Google, unless you scroll past it.
But if you click on it then it'll actually have
links out to websites. But it's changing the way that
people are experiencing the web right now. Well, you have
to have a website, Yeah, you've got to have one always.
I don't think they'll ever go away, but it's becoming
(11:59):
not almost more of a to serve up the right content.
So the bots are recommending you versus them going to
your website directly like they used to.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So then and then one and then one layer. I
don't even know it's deeper. But then like imagine you're
a home service brand and you tell one day your
AI agent pin glasses watch whatever ends up being Hey,
you know one, you're talking to it differently, so you're saying, hey,
(12:27):
I clogged my drain because you know my daughter son
or I accidentally threw a lot of paper towels down
the drain. I have people coming over in four hours.
I need this resolved. I needed done someone obviously to
come today again. So that agent essentially is going on
the web. Your personal assistant is going out on the
(12:49):
web and looking for Okay, who is that potential plumber?
Can I book that plumber off of their website? So
one to have a native integration, whether you're a day spa,
a plumber, you know, online ordering, if you're fast food
or you know, fast casual or whatever type of restaurant,
like being able to take the action natively within your
(13:10):
website versus just a form that gets filled out. I
mean again, it's like being able to take the action
on the website. So reading the website, yes, but then
being able to take the action and having the content
to know that the action they're taking is going to
get me ultimately the end consumer. The result a case,
(13:31):
somebody to show up in four hours before people come
over and be confident that someone is actually coming. Yeah,
And so.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
That's a major shift though with that whole concept.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh my god, it's take action.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
We used to it used to all be about the funnel,
like get as many people in the funnel as you
can at the top, who care if they're interested or
ready or whatever, just capture their info. And we're moving
away from that whole mindset to how do we get
the right people on the website and if they're ready,
then how do we get them to buy now or
transact now we're scheduled now, or take whatever action is that?
Do you think they want to do if you're in
(14:04):
e commerce site, by the widget now right. I think
they've been doing that for years, but service industry has
struggled with that concept, I think for a long time.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Honestly, it's all broken. It's honestly, it's so I mean,
guess me. I was on a hotel website and I
wanted to find out, like what's the number for the restaurant,
and it's like they're constantly pushing you to like book
a hotel. But it's like corporate, so it's like Marriott,
but it's like also boutique. It's just it's all broken.
(14:33):
Retail is broken, Like I want to know if this
shoe is in this location so I can go get
it before the party, I need to go to the
fact that we can't even do that today in any
like trustworthy fashion. So again we go to Amazon. Hope
to god they can deliver either the same day or
the next day. And that's why Amazon just keeps winning,
you know. And again when I we went down this
(14:54):
rabbit hole pretty hard a couple of years ago, it's
essentially like, you know, some of the largest companies are
still running off of spreadsheets and archaic you know, pos
systems that are just like, don't talk to the other system.
But what I think will could happen is again some
(15:14):
of the ais that are coming out being able to
actually conduct all the systems, no matter how archaic they are,
as long as they could be read like you almost
didn't have to if you waited long enough, like you're okay,
should be We'll see it'll be interesting.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah. I ran into a lady the other day who
was running her franchise off of an access database.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I haven't even heard of the word access. Yeah A
long time.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I mean, I was working for a Microsoft partner. We
end of life. The exams for access like seventeen years
ago because it was wasn't relevant.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
So I don't do the same joke. You're walk into
a bank. They're still running windows.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
XP they are banks and insurance companies. But let's not
go down that rabble hole.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
No, no, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
But all right, so let's talk about this one other
thing that I want to make sure we pull out of.
What Mark's talking about today is is the value of
owning the website. But they're like everyone on this who's
listening probably think why own my website? But not really?
So can you maybe explain maybe a way or deeper, Mark,
what do you mean by you've got to own your website?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right? So there's a couple of layers. So look, the
most simplest version is, should you want him leave your
current vendor, You're not gonna lose any legacy CEO, You're
not gonna you don't have a fear of your website
being turned off, right, Like, you own your website, so
(16:42):
if you decide to leave, you can leave. So one,
it's like almost like a contractual thing more than the
technological thing. But regardless, they play together. So one we
always say like you own your website because the content's yours.
Everything you do on the website's yours. The same way
we would migrate somebody to dev hub is we make
it even probably easier to migrate off of dev hub.
(17:05):
The other part of owning the website is like, again,
you have fifty franchises, ten, five, three that need to
launch their website. Like you understand that that should only
be like maybe an hour of work. Again, that's like
five ten. I mean one should be in theorious skeleton
(17:26):
bones up and running within five ten minutes. If you
have to put in a support request and wait three weeks,
you don't on your website. Yeah, your agency does, and
they're looking for somebody to figure out how to spin
up that other website, like it's crazy. And then if
you're by the way, you're getting charged for that time.
(17:47):
You're also you don't know on your website. So it's
like there's like it's it's in that vein one. Everything
should be portable. You shouldn't be scared of a contract.
You own your website. It's not like someone can be like,
we're just gonna shut it off if you don't, you know,
because you're leaving us. It's like, no, you should be
able to leave it at any time. All data should
be portable. And then the second part is like again
(18:08):
like the limitations of you you all being able to
either add pages, add in new franchise, natively integrate with
something h you know, taking advantage of you know, I
want to push this promo because something has happened in
this part of the world or part of the even
(18:29):
the US, and like that task is not like we
need to think about that four hour, you know, four
weeks from now, so we need to plan it from now,
but ultimately you can get done within the same timeframe
to actually take advantage of the opportunity. Like so being
able to move quickly with your website, Yeah, it's all.
(18:50):
It's all of that means owning it, like physically owning it.
You own your domain name anyway, like so you can
point it wherever you need to point it.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
But yeah, yeah, no, I love I love the what
what you're sharing is spot on because if you're not
you're not able to react to the market. The market's
moving fast. So if you're not able to take advantage
of of a promo, concept of a keyword.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
That it's like like I'll just say like this, I
don't care. I'm gonna put out this video myself. Is
like earlier today we shared with some of our clients customers,
here's how today you can use within dev hub and
one in autn't care. One in home services. Home services
was like, so the example they gave was like, if
(19:34):
there's this type of bug that's being reported in the
Northwest and you know, it's eating some type of tree
or flower, whatever the hell, Like, you're telling me that
I can go into dev hub, ride up that blog
post and push it out to all the branches of
you know, our locations in the Northwest in five minutes.
(19:56):
And it's like yeah, And that was like, holy shit, Right,
I don't to code anything. I can literally just take
advantage of the opportunity, right auto same thing. So, if
there's this recall, right, and I need to like let
people know at that this location is servicing that recall,
(20:17):
I can go into a chat interface and say update
this one location with this recall or update all of
them on the Eastern seaboard because salt affected blah blah
blah blah blah. Yeah, Like there's no agency call anymore,
there's no more looking at your web developer. If you
don't want to like you and I can do it.
That's that is the future. Yeah, and so that's why
(20:40):
franchise brands would have help will win. Yeah, and I didn't.
I didn't. Look I'm not holding back obviously right now,
and I'm supposed to like regulate my voice, but I
can hopefully people understand it as excitement and passion and
not like arrogance. But regardless, it's like I'm unfortunately a
very my probably character laws that I'm fiercely loyal and
(21:03):
the brands customers who choose dev Hub, I mean, like
we're going to make sure they win against anybody who's
not on dev Hub. That's how I feel. And it's
disgusting because it's like it's a little bit evil in
the sense of like sorry, like you didn't choose us,
so go figure it out on your own. And by
the way, when you come back, I don't even know
(21:24):
if we're going to keep you. You know, Keith, have
you know? I wish we could build that company, but
we'll take them up.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
No, but I appreciate it. You should be fierce about
your your ability to help your clients be successful. I
have zero I don't think you need to hold back
or apologize about that at all.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Well, again, I think that what I heard at young
un conference, which was a weird one for me. I had.
You know, I've been on the conference circ now almost
two years. This will be the third year, and I've
got I go to what like six a year. I
think it is roughly the first time I ever heard this.
And I'm asking you, Dave, you tell me if you've
heard it. The problem with franchise, it's don't we're a vendor, right,
(22:06):
we're websites, right, But the problem in franchise is most
all the technology is old. And I was like what,
and they're like yeah, like most of the systems that
a franchise brand is using franchise or franchising is like old.
And again I know nothing beyond digital marketing, which to
(22:27):
me is always kind of I don't know how it
can be old on that front. On the website, I
do know, right, you've got to installed two years ago.
You know, you have a backlog of stuff that you're
just ignored. But like, talk to me, is that true?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Oh yeah, no, we see it.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Like what does it mean?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
It means that? Well, so, because enfranchising isn't an industry, right,
this is this is a cross section of one hundred industries.
But the franchise business model requires unique functionality that very
few technologlogy platforms can service. And so what it means
is people will customize old, old systems and they get
(23:06):
stuck on them because they're like, oh, well, we used
access to build this database fifteen years ago, and we
build this custom wedget in it so now it works
to support our multi unit strategy. And so we run
into this kind of stuff all the time. People operating
off of spreadsheets, I mean CRM side right, or they're
trying to use like some old dog VRM like a
Salesforce or a HubSpot, and I think those are good CRMs,
(23:28):
but they're like they're trying to like bastardize tools to
make them sort of work to support this unique data mode.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
They're doing it because they don't know better, or you
think they're doing it because like they just want the
lowest cost.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Most of the time, well, I would say one a
lot of them are ignorant, right, they don't realize that
there are solutions that are designed to do what they
need help with, like a dev hub or a clientet
or whatever. But they're also they they're being steered down
a convenient path by partners, right, So they're marketing people
out there, they're like, oh, you got to use HubSpot.
But but what they won't say is we only know
(24:01):
how to work with that platform, so we won't try
to work with anything else, or we only or like
systems integrators, they get pulled into franchising, they're just they're
resellers for Salesforce, and so they're like, well, the only
way that you can make this work is with Salesforce,
and don't even know that other platforms exist that do
it out of the box, right. So that those are
a couple of things that I see that are kind
(24:23):
of rampant in the industry. Is just kind of ignorance
and not not reaching out to see what is actually
out there. And also third parties that are that are
coming in and just kind of trying to apply things
that worked in the automotive industry that don't work en
franchising or wherever they come from, right, They're they're just
trying to drag in tools that don't belong. So those
are the two big things that I see that are
(24:46):
creating some of these system issues and they're also technologies
in this industry that are old, right, that are really old,
and they've acquired technologies that are even older and they're
still around. And so you know, I know that they're
constantly working to try to update themselves. But when you're
you're running on on rails that are that are twenty
years old, you're gonna have issues with your tech your
(25:06):
tech stack. Yeah, that's interesting, not a not a wrong statement,
although I will say, you know, guys like you, guys
like us, we're trying to modernize as fast as we can.
In this space, it's very slow to adopt change.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah. Again, I think it's sometimes I think it's slow
because of dollars, right, And so there's obviously like priority,
like how valuable is a website when you know, oh
it's these guys are saying it's one hundred thousand, but
my friend says it's like eight. It's like, so what
am I missing?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Right? And yeah, I mean it's like that's the question
I guess they should be asking. It's like how wait,
what's the difference then? Because it can't be just price,
Like what has to be adding that value that's not
there at eight thousand or ten thousand, and that's there
at a hundred, you know. And again what I'll say
(26:03):
is like, that's why I was so grateful today. It's
funny this podcast is coming after again we released all
these AI things with Deva with some of our choice
customers today and to see them, I don't be as
excited as I am, you know, and knowing that like
the loyalty, like the we want you to win, but
you know, but really going even before that was like
(26:24):
again taking a chance on us, right, Like literally our
coming out was essentially last year, like truly last year.
I think toward the end of twenty twenty three fine,
but like in terms of launching was all the first quarter,
second quarter, third quarter, fourth quarter of twenty twenty four
where our work is into in the wild, where we
actually have clients define is the sickest d D and uh.
(26:48):
And so for them, I'm insanely grateful right for taking
that chance to be like, yeah, I know you guys
might be more expensive, but it seems like you know
what you're doing. I don't know what the hell you're
talking about, but it feels like this is right, you know,
like that, you know, like it was crazy on them
you know. But ultimately, I think today I think they realize, oh,
(27:12):
I'm on a framework, I'm on a platform. I'm on
like something that's like releasing every week, something that's making
my life it's easier, you know, and it's like, oh,
that's the difference between one hundred and ten thousand, you know,
and anyway, it's just.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
You'll also find a lot of the younger brands they
don't have budgets, right, Like, they don't have the budget
to invest heavily or do you really think strategically. They're
just like, well, we're so tight, let's just get the
least expensive thing we can find. So a lot of
the younger brands, you have to clean up a lot
of messes where they're like we got grasshopper and pipe
driving like and zap here, and they start just cobbling
(27:49):
together these you know, these crappy solutions that sort of
got them to ten units. But then they're like, oh, no, like.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
We do well, we'll be funny day. Whenever you post this,
you know, I'll also post on because somebody in our
one of our customers was talking about that. And then again,
I'm not the smart one. I up luckily is where
I can be out here just like talking essentially like
this is that the people that are backing it up,
you know. But someone was talking about how again, some
of these AI tools can now connect those systems, and
(28:20):
I want to say, like better than Zappier, but again,
like I don't know what I'm saying, so I gain,
I'll release a video roughly at the same time.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, yeah, and point and if you find any that
are really really good, I mean, man, that's you know,
even it's crazy, but having really robust, open documented APIs
with a postman so people can test their connections into
our platforms, like you would think that we were the
first ones to slice bread, you know, it was. It's crazy.
When we talked to these brands, We're like, well we
can't do that with this platform or that platform. But
(28:51):
having a having AI that is really good at connecting
into APIs or like tying into platforms at at a
code level, send anything my way, you got, because our
goal is to keep our platform as modern and fast
and nimble as possible. Yeah, let's shift. I want to
I want to go back to our topic and kind
of wrap up on a few thoughts. One thing that
(29:11):
I thought about when you and I had our conversation
in Park City, is that that not not owning your
website actually creates a lot of disparity across You mentioned
the risk right if you say I need to switch suppliers,
they're not. They're no longer servicing my need to to
get the se O up today. They're they're really difficult.
It takes three to four days to just get a
(29:31):
website updated for a franchise. Franchise it's got a new
thing that's urgent in their territory, or or or like
the PPC performance isn't as good as I thought it was,
but I can't like having everything wrapped into a single
partner seems super appealing because there's one bill to pay,
one throat to choke, but that actually creates a lot
(29:52):
of challenges across the board. So I was wondering if
maybe it's kind of a wrap up thought today, would
you maybe highlight like why why is having a great
website so critical to your SEO strategy and your PPC
strategy and you know, and why is it good to
separate the two Because there's so much all in one
talk right now that it kind of drives me crazy
(30:13):
because I don't need my I don't need my CRM
to turn on my toaster into like no, no, Like, do
you need specialist partners that are great at something rather
than just generalists that are okay at everything? So maybe
could you could you share some thoughts on that which
you've observed in this in this world.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Of tech in a in a way, I would say
it's probably similar to you said, like, you know the
systems integraders consultants who who are like have some weird
affinity to some tool. And so again in all in one,
(30:55):
whether that's through an agency or even a platform. Again,
like are they really good at six things? Eight things?
And knowing that they're maybe failing in one two, I mean,
it doesn't give you the confidence in the other four
or five. And so you know, I'm just gonna say
(31:18):
it like this, and I probably shouldn't tonight. I don't.
I don't think I can get in trouble. But I
guess you never know how this lives on the internet.
But I'll just say like this, there's just a lot
of shitty marketers out there. And so as a franchise
or who you surround yourself with in the team in
leadership to make decisions right, and yes, sometimes things cost more,
(31:43):
but again, like we all know the cliche, you get
what you pay for it like matters, and so you know,
it's like, you know, I sympathize with like the emerging,
right who are like call it? I mean again, we
were emerging to me still like under one hundred, but
let's say under one hundred under twenty, where again there
(32:04):
is an appeal of all in one because it is
one throat to choke. But again it's when those support
requests are coming in like hey, I you know my
location or territory is live, but my website is not
appearing in search, or hey I'm paying two thousand dollars
to this agency and my AD is not even coming
(32:26):
up for my name right, or you know my listing
information is wrong and that's all being handled by like
a person like you put three, four, five of those
support requests for just one franchise and now you have
twenty or one hundred. Do you think that where are they?
How much staff do you think they have to support
(32:47):
that along their other customers? Right? Right? And so again
when I say about you know, leaders in marketing at
these companies like yeah, essentially over twenty. Let's say you
do need to build a digital marketing stack, right, and
again I don't think you need to go more than
three probably four vendors, right, And what we say and
(33:10):
again it's it's true, but you'll learn it one way
or another that the website is the heart of it.
So then we're using for paid, we're using for advanced SEO, social, CRM,
lead route, like you're picking the and some of those
can have two three things that they're good at. That's fine,
But I don't know how you can be good at
paid potentially SEO content, which I think is going to
(33:32):
be a whole different field than this second listings reviews,
also lead routing, also your chatbot, also your social and
they're running your website like I don't get it, Like,
and there's a platform like you guys out there who
are really good at what you do, and there's a
platform like we really so when there is something potentially
broken and potentially have the expert in the room to
(33:54):
talk to. Now the expert is failing, you get rid
of them, you know, but you're not having to be
like figuring out how to unwind all of this stuff.
And again, the graphic that we used to pitch that
I think fell short of communicating. This idea was like,
(34:15):
there's like the it was like about I don't know,
a year ago or maybe it's maybe it's updated every year,
but it's the mark mark tech marketing technology landscape graphic, right.
And when we first started in the space, there was
I don't know, a thousand or one hundred. Now there's
like I think twelve or fourteen thousand marketing technologies out
(34:36):
there that service brands of all shapes and sizes. Like
do you think that these companies can even exist without
being really good at that thing that they do versus me? Like,
I'm gonna go build the all in one and I
do all of it, you know. The all in one
to me is a rat race built by investors to
squeeze more revenue out of franchise brands, multilocation brands, any
(34:59):
of their custom Let's just keep stuffing more products in
there so we can get more money from these people.
And it's like, again, good luck, you know, but ye
know ULTI people will get what are you paid for it?
And so yeah, I don't know. Somewhere there was an
answer and it should be obvious as hell, but again, like,
you know, I wanted to say one thing sort of
related but not really. It was like, you know, we're
(35:22):
talking about AI AI, yeah, and I was like, I'll
just say it like this, Like I didn't realize probably
till today, that some people are actually scared of it,
and I've been like kind of like really bullish on it,
and I think it's like scared of it, like if
I don't think about it, it's going to go away.
(35:45):
And it's like I don't think it works like that.
But again, that's the reason I love content, the reason
why I love we've been doing, like the podcast is
like that's how I'm as a you know, ten fifty
six am on April third, you know, that's the feeling
subject to change in the next minute, So don't quote me.
But it's like I didn't realize that there is a
(36:06):
contingent of people who are actually scared and so are
just doing the thing that feels safe for today, but
they're just going to create more work literally tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
So yeah, anyway, yeah, no, I feel you. It's funny
because in the marketing space, especially like we're talking about
websites and content and things that we know AI is
really good at enfranchising. I've seen executives, even really smart
people that are afraid of of the hallucination side of AI,
Like they're like, well, I can't trust that because you
(36:39):
know it might it might hallucinate and then create something.
We're regulated industry on the frand absite blah blah blah.
That's a valid concern and you can control that if
you understand AI well enough, right, But the other side
of it is, oh crap, I have a team of
thirty people supporting seventeen brands. What's going to happen to
their jobs? And we I mean, we talked about it earlier.
(37:00):
But I think that's the other thing that scares people
is it's going to take over, and then they start
questioning if they're in the matrix, like I mean, I mean,
it's not real. Neither one of those is real, right,
But they they just they don't understand that it's just
going to move menial tasks off of their team's plates
and let their people work on those tasks that they
wish they had more time to work on every day.
If they leverage it right, you know, if they leverage
(37:21):
it right. But yeah, I think that that's sad. Sadly
based mostly in ignorance, and if they were to take
the time to dig into it, they would find that
the AI has.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I'll tell you that, I'll show you, I'll show you.
I don't think it'll translate. Right, So, because what was
kind of a weird realization is where people put value
on websites, and that only happened in the last again,
not people true leaders who choose DEVA or like Deva,
I'm choosing you because you're the best, go for it,
do your thing, tell us what works right. But again
(37:54):
you do run into leaders and franchiser like I know
what works best, you know with web sites, which I
don't understand how they do. And they're like, I want
my website to be like the best designed website. And
I'm like, I think people forget like their website is
essentially on this device. It's not on this desktop. It's
not here. It's right here, right now, it's right here,
(38:16):
it's not here, it's not here, it's right here. And
so this is what this is the example I gave
to a brand to like, I want a really nice,
pretty website. I'm like, this is what people would consider
like pretty. There's like no and there's like they're trying
to be the luxury you can't really see. It's kind
of a shitty. Big point is there's no action to
take on this, just a really unique graphic. And then
(38:40):
here's like essentially like the four Seasons, which you can't
really tell. All of those buttons right there are all
called the action. You want to go log it, you
want to go do this thing, you want to go
do this thing you want. So there's a way to
blend good design, you know, but with like some set
of who you are as the brand. But again for
(39:04):
a leader double down bank, you guys don't know how
to design design. It's like no, because we're also thinking
about how do you drive leads to take it right?
How is this going to look on mobile? Not the
mock ups that you're getting from a design agency that's
like this would be really cool if its animated graphic.
I'm like, do you realize if you have a pop
up on your mobile device you suck? But it's like
(39:27):
they don't want to hear it. And so anyway, yeah,
this was great, Dave, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Man.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Well, Mark, thanks for making time guys. If actually, if
you don't mind, Mark, if somebody wants to find you,
what's the best way for them to connect? LinkedIn or
email or what's the best way?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I mean, I think I'm pretty open about it. But again, yes,
devhub dot com, forward slash contact or demo or just
look up Mark Michael on LinkedIn, drop me an email
on social everything is that Glider CEO. That's Glider g
l I d e R CEO, Chief executive officer or
whatever the hell it is nowadays, And uh yeah it's
(40:03):
I'm out there, Mark Michael Seattle, Mark Michael Deva. You'll
find me and get in touch. And you know this
is the best time to be alive right now.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, I agree. There's a lot of great stuff happening. Mark,
thanks for being on. I sure appreciate all the content.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Cool. Yeah, thanks d
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