#131 Scaling Smart: Ahmed Refky on CX Growth in Emerging Markets

In this episode of Good Morning BSS World, I connect across the Atlantic with Ahmed Refky, CEO of Planovate — an advisory firm based in Orlando, Florida, specializing in the CX and BPO sectors. With more than 25 years of global experience, Ahmed brings a wealth of insights on growth strategies, market entry, offshoring, and scaling for companies seeking to expand their customer experience operations.

Drawing from his recent visit to Georgia, a rising star among emerging outsourcing destinations, Ahmed outlines the fundamentals of how markets - both new and mature - can position themselves to attract clients and investors. He stresses the importance of defining a clear value proposition, building strong people-first teams, and developing credible client references before profitability.

We explore two key scenarios: how emerging destinations can become visible to global investors, and how established service providers can assess when and where to expand. From nailing down go-to-market strategies to balancing nearshore and offshore models, Ahmed provides practical frameworks based on real-world consulting experience.

Crucially, Ahmed reminds us: “Relationships can’t be built behind screens.” He urges stakeholders to blend physical presence with digital engagement, and avoid the trap of overselling. Whether you're a country looking to attract FDI or a BPO aiming to scale abroad, this episode is packed with actionable takeaways.

Tune in for strategic insights, market dynamics, and real-world success stories that can help guide your next move in the global CX and BPO landscape.  

Key points of the podcast:

• Identifying and focusing on a clear value proposition is crucial for both emerging destinations and service providers to attract and retain clients effectively.
• Building strong, face-to-face relationships and understanding cultural affinities are essential components for successful client engagement and business growth.
• Overselling capabilities can damage trust and reputation, making it vital to accurately represent what can be realistically delivered.  

Links:
Ahmed Refky on Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/ahmedrefky/
Planovate - https://www.planovate.com/
Talk to AI about this episode - https://gmbw.onpodcastai.com/episodes/nznooWH2LTo/chat  

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My name is Wiktor Doktór and on daily basis I run Pro Progressio Club https://klub.proprogressio.pl - it's a community of many private companies and public sector organizations that care about the development of business relations in the B2B model. In the Good Morning BSS World podcast, apart from solo episodes, I share interviews with experts and specialists from global BPO/GBS industry.

If you want to learn more about me, please visit my social media channels:
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/wiktordoktor
Here is also link to the English podcasts Playlist - https://bit.ly/GoodMorningBSSWorldPodcastYT
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/wiktordoktor
You can also write to me. My email address is - kontakt(@) wiktordoktor.pl  

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This Podcast is supported by Patrons:
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
This podcast is supported by patrons. You can find the
fullest of them in the description of this episode. Hello, Hello,
listeners and viewers of Good Morning bis As World podcast.
This is Victor Doctor and I am recording this podcast
from the middle of your from Warsaw, Poland, and today

(00:32):
our waves of the podcast are going across Atlantic Ocean
and we go directly to Orlando, where my special guest,
Ahmed Revki is present. Hi Ahmed, how are.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
You, Hi, Victor? Good morning?

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Or Am I correct that you are somewhere near Orlando
or maybe within Orlando?

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Totally correct?

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Perfect? So maybe let's do for the beginning the very
proper introduction of yourself if you could just tell us
a little bit about who you are, what do you
do on a daily basis?

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Sure, my name is Ahmad Drafty, as you said, an,
i'vepinion that business for more than twenty five years and
currently I'm heading a US consult us based consulting term
called plan of It. And what we do actually is
we do turnaround startups, assistance, scalability and growth in the
cx BPOs piece. We held companies with the AI and

(01:26):
digital strategies, market entry and penetration offshoring projects and smart
selection of locations and providers. So basically CX and BPO
is our speciality.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Thank you very much, and we know each other for
some time already. This area of customer experience BPO CX
was the one where we actually met each other some
time ago, and quite recently, it was more or less
two weeks before we met on recording of this podcast.
We also had a chance to have another face to
face meeting during the visit to Georgia. The emerging markets,

(02:01):
isn't it correct, And you also mentioned that you are
supporting organizations in entering to new markets so to help
them actually to find a good location for their operation center.
And this is going to be the subject of our
today's conversation, so we will focus on emerging destinations and

(02:23):
if they have a chance actually of being attractive for
either the newcomers who are willing to open the CX
center or for the BPOs who want to enlarge their
business activities and also to open their operation center. And
maybe let's come back to this Georgia visit, because that

(02:43):
was that's a fantastic good example. Yeah, we just know
it from very recent experience. What were your feelings after
this visit.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Thank you vector. That's a very important question and the
topic actually because I hear it every day. As I said,
I help companies to grow and scale, and that's the
question that I'm always asked every day. Do we have
a chance and how we can do it? How can
we attract clients? How can we enter markets? So that

(03:11):
goes actually for emerging destinations or even providers in a
mature market or an emerging market that are actually struggling
to land or acquire clients or even position themselves in
a client park. So that's a very important topic and
that's something we do every day. That's something we help

(03:33):
companies to grow, and we have companies to position themselves.
So my first take would be, actually, I would say
every location and every provider has something to offer. The
most important thing is to know your capabilities, know your
value proposition, nail it down and as a location or

(03:57):
as a provider, show it strength in it. So don't
be someone who can actually do everything. You have something
to offer, You have a capability that you need to show.
And a success story is if you are actually a

(04:18):
market that's already emerging or a market that's already mature,
you have something to offer your clients. So there's here
a very important question to answer in any destination or
any service provider, and this question is who is your
potential client or what is the service that when you

(04:40):
talk to him or you talk to that specific potential client,
you can confidently tell him this is the specific location
or this is the specific provider that will actually satisfy
your need. So if you nail down your capability or
your that value proposition, you will actually approach the client

(05:04):
and tell him confidently this is the place you should go.
If you can answer this question, then you have actually
done a long way because you will position yourself right.
You will position yourself to the correct client market that's
actually looking for your capabilities. And it doesn't matter. I

(05:26):
mean if it's a big market or an emerging market
or a small market like you mentioned the example of Georgia.
Georgia is an excellent market that's small but has something
to offer and there's a client for it, so it
doesn't it doesn't have to be a huge market that's

(05:47):
scalable and providing you know, basic CS or basic CX services.
Geogia is is a niche market but has something to
offer and other small markets as well. The key here
is to know your capability is needed done. If you
have clients already that are successful in this market, let

(06:10):
them talk about it, Let them show their capabilities, let
them show their successes that happened in that market, and
let them talk about it, because the actually those people
are your best advocates.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
So I can see here like two scenarios. One scenario
for the emerging market is that this is a completely
new market willing to attract new companies, new investors, and
so on. And the second one is that already there
is a presence of first investors, first companies who might
be treated like reference points.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Now that's a very important point. I mean, if you
are just starting, I mean like a startup or a
market that's actually very new to the map and very
new too, you have to acquire what we usually say
the one dollar account. The one dollar account is actually

(07:08):
not it's just an exaggeration. They always name it one
dollar account, but it's actually the first or the very
first accounts or clients that you attract to that market.
You sacrifice your profitability a little bit, you give them
a little bit more to attract them to come and
work in the market. Mind you you have to do

(07:29):
a good job. If you are a provider, you have
to do a good job. If you are an emerging destination,
you have to really make their life easy and they
make sure that they will succeed and they will talk
about I mean the trust here is very important. And
trust does not come from a service provider or a

(07:51):
destination that talks about himself. The trust comes from successful
projects or successful clients or success stories that happens at
that point. If they talk about it, they will have
better credibility definitely. So attract people at the beginning. Don't

(08:12):
look at profitability to start with. I mean, build your references.
And to build your references, you have to attract your
very first clients and then grow and scale. Now there
is a very important point here. I mean, some service

(08:33):
providers that are actually in the market and struggling to grow,
they have their client base, they have their success stories,
let's put it this way, and still they are not
able to grow. Now there's a very important thing here,
and let's get a little bit back to basics. If

(08:56):
I put it this way, I mean, what are basics.
We are in a people business. People are the basic
component of our services. Get the right people, get the
right calibers, look at inner qualities when hiring or putting
together the team. Technicalities can be trained. You can train people,

(09:20):
you can learn them. I mean you can learn technicality,
but you cannot learn qualities. So if you put the
right team in place, make one hundred percent sure, and
we've done it in several projects before, put the right
team in place, that team will will actually do it,

(09:43):
will actually do the success. They will take care of
the clients, they will take care of the business, and
they will do the right job for them. Of course,
there are many components that we need we need to
put in place, and I usually say it's the healthy
foundation for growth. But again that's basic need. Start with
your people, Start with the correct team, the right team

(10:06):
in place. If you put that right team in place,
they will actually put the technology, they would put the processes,
they would put the disciplines needed to provide the services,
they would take care of the client and the business
and business will grow. So always look back to basics,
and that's something we do every day, and we always

(10:27):
go whether it is a service provider that's struggling to
grow or needs to grow, we always look at the
basic stuff or of an emerging destination. You always look
at the people. That's the main component of our services
or our business. C X is all about people. And

(10:48):
if you look at I mean we call it customer experience,
and customer experience is definitely coming from the customer is
the end customer of a client. So client experience is
actually very extremely important. And client experience is coming from
the experience that he faces in a destination or with

(11:08):
that specific service provider. And of course it's all coming
from our people experience or in t experience that we have.
That's a direct reflection in tea experience reflects on the
client experience and the customer experience as well. I'll tell
you a very talking about Jojia. Actually I had a

(11:29):
very good experience landing in the airport, and I've talked
about this couple of times before. When I landed in
the airport in Joji, at was five am or four
am in the morning, that the airport was packed, and
I have to say the experience was great, I mean,
very well organized, very well received by the immigration officers

(11:52):
who are actually smiling. They speak good English. So that's
the kind of experience and impressions you get when you
get in to a new destination. I mean, the first
thing you do is actually or we see, is the
airport in the experience you get at the airport.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
I have a question coming back to those basics, because
I can imagine two different scenarios. One scenario is that
there is an emerging destination who wants to be visible
for potential investors, for potential clients, and it's just starting
this journey and needs to take some steps to be
more visible. You have to attract the companies the business.

(12:32):
And the second scenario is that, for example, I am
the owner of a successful CX company based in Texas
or wherever in the United States, and there is a
certain moment that I need to think about moving abroad
and for the place to find a new place to operate.
But I have no idea how to start this journey.

(12:52):
So what the first steps to make If we could
now focus on those two scenarios, two, let's say identify
two or three areas which needs to be taken into consideration.
In one scenario by the country, what to do to
make this first step to be more visible for potential investors,
and one or two or three advisors for such successful BPO.

(13:17):
Let's say company who needs to go somewhere either in
near showing or of shorting model.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
How to do that? Now, let's defriciate here. Let's talk
about the destination first and emerging destinations that actually wants
to attract clients or wants to actually show the capabilities
to your clients. Now the question is do you have
a client base already, do you have people that are
actually operating in that specific location. Then let them talk

(13:44):
about their experience, let them talk about their successes. So
as I said before, I mean the credibility of someone
who's actually operating and successful in a destination is worth
and trustworthy and more credit. So let them talk, let
them shout about their successes, let them talk about their

(14:06):
success stories that happened in that destination. If you don't
have any clients, you have to nail down your capabilities
as a destination. You have to identify your value proposition.
And value proposition could be a specific language or market
that you can attract or a specific service that you

(14:28):
can actually do. So instead of running around the place
and you know, going around the world and talking about
their capabilities and your value proposition. You have to nail
down which specific go to market strategy here. I mean like,

(14:50):
don't waste your time and marketing spending on targets out
of your focus. You need to focus and say, this
is our client market that you need to attract. Those
are our client segments or industries that we will tap on,
and this is the specific and even you can go
down to a specific service that you need to talk about.

(15:11):
So again focus is key. Know your capabilities, know your
client or per potential client or prospect, and nail down
your activities and activities here has to be both actually
digital marketing and physical marketing, which we cannot ignore here,
like physical presence is very important. We all get used

(15:33):
to or got used to virtual meetings and you know,
talking to each other behind cameras once on, but believe me,
it's not the same. Relationship cannot be built behind screens.
You need to find the right mix between face to
face meetings and virtual meetings. Relationship has to be built,

(15:59):
cannot be behind the screen. So you need to be present.
You need to be present in those specific markets, but
you can't be present in the whole world. Again, you
need to focus and be present where your client is
where your industry segment that you're targeting is where your
services is needed. So that covers maybe the destination or

(16:23):
emerging destinations. If you talk about specific provider, I would
I would actually say the same because sometimes when you
talk to providers, especially the startups or the growth companies
on a growth path, they almost tell you what we
do everything, which is something. I mean, you cannot do everything.

(16:46):
You need to be specialized, and clients are actually looking
at specialization here. The clients are looking can look actually
at a small or medium provider, not a global or
a big provider. They can actually look at a niche
or a boutique shop. If they are specialized in doing something,
they are specialized in a specific service. So specialization is

(17:11):
key here. Know your capabilities, build on it, Know your
target client market, know your target client base and your
target prospect. Nail nail it down and hit on them.
I think this is key. This is key. You cannot
you cannot go around and do everything. Now there's a
very specific part that you mentioned here. If I'm a

(17:34):
service provider that I want to group, the question is
I mean footprint and growth and diversification and delivery location
is actually a big part of the capabilities. Now, the
question is if you are extending or strengthening your capabilities here,
are you diversifying your capabilities or are you just building

(17:57):
on the existing capabilities. Let's give you an Let's let
me get you an example. If I am specialized in
financial sector or fintech or financial services, then you need
to again diversify and expand and strengthen your capabilities in
a location that offers that capability. If so, the question

(18:21):
is if you want to build on the existing service
and existing capabilities and strengthen it, then look for the
education where they can offer that kind of capability. If
it's IO, then look at a location that's good in
providing it OO services and proving capability in it WO services.
So build on the existing if you want to strengthen

(18:45):
your capabilities. Now, if you want to diversify, for example,
someone who is in fintech or someone who is in
ITO and he wants to diversify in basic CX services,
then look at the location that's scalable and cost competitive
that actually can build on and standing on your capabilities

(19:05):
in the CX or diversifying the CX basic CX services.
So again the question is always position yourself, know your
capabilities and when you approach client, which is very important.
I have to say it, and I've seen it hundreds
of times. Actually the CX or bto companies, they always

(19:27):
they always tend to uh over sell. And this is
maybe one advice that I would always say to my clients.
Do not over sell. Do not over sell. It will
backfire sooner or later. There's a capability of a market,
there is a capability, there's there are capabilities of that

(19:48):
specific market. There are capabilities of that specific provider. Sell
your capabilities. If you want to build new capabilities, build it,
sell it, but do not over sailing. I hope I
answered your question.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Oh yeah, definitely. But now this is what comes to
my mind is the area of mistakes. So what kind
of mistakes the more common mistakes there The most popular
mistakes are being made by either emerging by emerging destinations
for example, there's.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
A very important mistake. And it again it will go
back to over selling. It's selling something that you don't have.
Very simply. Now, as maybe I mentioned, if if we
take Georgia for example, I mean like Georgie is a

(20:44):
great location. I have extremely good impression on the destination,
the people, the culture and so on. But the scalability
here is ki. I mean like, if you are approaching
a client looking for scalability basic CX services, then this

(21:05):
is not the right location. So if going back to
Georgia or a service provider, actually that's operating in Georgia
and trying to sell a scalabil And when I say
scalable from a service here, I mean cost competitive scalability,
that's not correct. I mean like, sell what you have,

(21:29):
do not over sell. Do not sell something you don't
own or you cannot do. And again, as I said,
know your positioning, position yourself right, new your capabilities and
need it.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
If you take a look now on a global map,
let's say, uh, where do you think are the areas
not even a specific country, but let's say regions. Why
there where do have steel space and are a tractive
for companies to grow their bpoc X services. Do you

(22:05):
have any favorite global locations?

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Again, it really depends on the segment, the client itself,
the segment or the industry and the services that he's
looking for. All these tinations they have something to offer,
and it's really a matter of finding the right place
for that specific service, for that specific industry or that

(22:33):
specific way, And maybe there's one dimension here that we
cannot ignore, which is cultural affinity. The cultural affinity is
key to success. I mean, understand the service provider or
that emerging destination that's actually targeting a specific client market.

(22:55):
They need to understand the culture of that client. They
need to understand the culture of the customer that they're
actually serving. Cultural and affinity is key key to success,
and that goes to a client relationship or client success
organizations that's actually embedded into the service provider and in

(23:18):
the merging market as well. If you are if you're
a service provider and you want to penetrate or established
delivery location in a specific location, the is of doing
business and the relationship with the organizations, whether whether it
is the investment body or investment promotion body, or the
government or the licenses and so on, that kind of

(23:40):
relationship is extremely important and he needs to feel like
it's the same way of doing business back home. Same
goes to the service provider. If you are actually having
you know, cultural barriers or cultural misunderstanding, you won't feel comfortable.
I mean, like I've seen I've seen examples of service

(24:03):
providers who are actually running a beautiful client relationship organization.
And if things goes wrong with culture with I mean
culture and understanding and relationship building, the actually the client
can can can live with it, and as long as
you're on top of it and have a plan for

(24:24):
improvement or upward curve, then things would go right. If
the relationship is bad, believe me, I mean things can
really goes south. So that part of relationship and culture
and understanding is extremely important when it comes to either

(24:45):
an emerging destination or either a destination attracting clients or
even a service provider that's attracting clients. If the relationship
is good, business will grow and clients will be attracted.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
And correct me if I'm rock. But it is much
easier for the near shoring destinations to have this fit
cultural fit, yeah, because usually people living in the same
region they behave similarly, they have similar interests and so
on and so on. It's a little bit bigger challenge
for the destinations which are on the offshore let's say

(25:21):
site or far away or in a different continents and
so on and so on. So I believe this is
much more attention need to be put into the understanding
of your client or understanding of the other destinations when
you are planning to go somewhere far far away to
find the location to provide the services, either for you

(25:42):
or for your clients.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
Well, I mean I cannot, I cannot say it's it's
not true. It's true. I mean in some cases, but
again you cannot put this as a rule. Near sure
destinations and near sure outsourcing is a model that's good
for some companies, that's good for some industries. But still
you cannot neglect that. Offshore outsourcing and offshore destinations is

(26:08):
also a proven example, and we've seen projects every day
going offshore going a mix or a hybrid model between offshore,
near shore, even on shore, because I mean, if you
look at a client business, sometimes there are businesses or
there are services that you cannot get out of the country,
so you need to do it on shore, some other

(26:30):
services you you need to do it near sure, some
other services you need. So the correct or the hybrid
model is a model that we've seen extremely successful with
most of the clients. Ahm T.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
You mentioned one very very nice sentence which I actually
put down in here. Relationship cannot be built behind the screens. Yes, yeah,
so if we could now take a look on this
sentence and advice the emerging destinations, for example, how to

(27:04):
go outside of the screen. Do you think that it
is like going for directly to the targeted potential investor,
or rather attending the business events or going to such
advisors like you are to find out who and how
to target, or maybe there are other things which such
representatatives of emerging locations should do.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, now that's a very important question, and thank you
for Victor. I mean, like I'm a total believer that
face to face physical presence is extremely important. I mean,
as I said, we cannot neglect that virtual meetings and
digital media is important. The noise, I would always say,

(27:48):
the noise that you create on social media or digital
channels is extremely important because I mean, we're all behind
the screens every day, so we're hearing new emerging destinations.
Were anxious or theory is to read and listen to
what they offer. Virtual meetings is important and it's i

(28:11):
mean like it works well, let's put it this way.
But again, sitting face to face with someone is extremely
different and it creates that bonding or that kind of
relationship that you cannot build behind the screens. Now, yeah,

(28:33):
part of your question is actually where to go and
where to meet clients. Again, it will go back to
what are you offering? If you know your value proposition,
if you know your capabilities, and you nailed down that
specific client or potential client that you can actually approach

(28:54):
and confidently tell him that industry and your business and
the services that we offer, you need to go to
that specific location or that location will cover or that
specific provider will actually satisfy your needs. If you are
able to answer that question, you will actually able to

(29:17):
position yourself or position your activities or market spending to
that specific client or that specific industry. So again there
are two mixed here or two kind of activities that
you need to be present in specific BPO or CX
industries that you will actually or events that you will

(29:39):
actually find everyone there, or industry specific events. For example,
if you if you are providing healthcare services, there are
specific healthcare events that you need to be present and
showcase your capabilities in that specific care venue because you

(30:01):
are actually targeting the clients that can actually use your services.
So again it's a mix of both specific cxbto events
and industry specific events. And of course, I mean you
can always do like targeted marketing events targeting specific clients

(30:24):
or specific number of clients or specific client base that
you need to target. But again, at the end, you
need to be present. You need to sit face to
face and talk to the clients. It's not always the
PowerPoint presentation. It's not always the formal talks that you

(30:46):
tell your clients I'm capable of doing so and so
and they're hearing this every day. It's the relationship that's built,
it's the trust that's built. And then very important, he
would listen to people who have done it before. If
you have successfulies, the credibility is way higher when you

(31:08):
listen to someone who did it before and is actually
successful in that market or with that service provider. Now
there's a very important thing here, which is I mean
it's not only acquiring clients, but trust and reputation is
very difficult to build, but it's very easy to lose.

(31:30):
So that's that would pick us back to over selling,
which is something as I said, with backfire one day,
sooner or later. I mean, it's difficult to build trust.
It's difficult to build the reputation. Whether it's an emerging
market or a service provider, it's very difficult to build
that relationship. I'm not saying it's impossible. It's difficult to

(31:51):
build it. It's very easy to lose it. So you
need to do a good job here.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, over selling is easy, Yeah, everyone can can do it.
But then you need to face the reality, and then
is the place where the challenges are appearing. So every
time when we focus on the reality, on this what
we really have as our asset and what we really
can offer, this is supporting us much much better than

(32:17):
just over selling or creating a virtual reality where it
will be difficult then to convince our potential investor, potential client,
potential customer to be seen like a valuable and reliable partner.
Very true, Ahmed, I must say, I don't know if

(32:38):
you know, but we already are talking over half an hour,
so the time flies a lot, and I can see
that questions are only rising and rising. So probably we
will not find the answers for all of them. But
I guess that you have much much answers which you
can give directly to some people who would be more
interested in getting more details for that and in such

(32:59):
a case, would you direct such people to go to
find you to get more answers, find.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Us on LinkedIn, find us on our website. It's a
very small website because we don't do marketing. We only
do I mean, we get our clients by the direct
relationship and direct referrals. But you can always find a
way to connect connect with us on either LinkedIn or
our website.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
So I will make sure to add the proper links
to the description of our today's stocks to make it
easier to find you find your company and to support
either emerging markets or the companies to find their business partners.
And for today, Ahmed, thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Victor, thank you so much. It was a very interesting discussion.
I really enjoyed it. I hope we had we added
value to our listeners here and thank you again for
having me.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Thank you so mu