November 10, 2025 • 46 mins
A chat about GenX/Boomer Gay friendship of a certain time! Steven is West Hollywoods First Poet Laureate. He has many books out there. Goto Amazon.com or your local bookstore. Gotot stevenreigns.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You, guys, You're not this is this is a dream
because I'm in person again. I am in person and
not at my zoom at my desk with my cheese.
It's on one side and my coffee on the other.
I'm actually in a studio coming to you from you
Padcaster Studios in Hollywood. It's in between the pages of
James Lot Junior. Who am I James Lot Junior? Of course,
(00:20):
and I returned guests, but I thought this guest deserves
to be in person. And I'm so glad you're here
with me. So I'm going to give you a kind
of cliff notes version because he has a long resume
in bio, but we'll give you a cliff notes version. This
person is celebrating a milestone birthday and somebody's still younger
than me, and I understand what that's all about. And
(00:43):
he has degrees. You know, he has degrees. You're smart,
He has degrees and everything. But one reason is why
I like it. Because he's a poet. He's a writer,
and notably he was appointed and in West Hollywood their
first poet laureate. Okay, the first, never forget your first. Also,
(01:03):
he's a speaker, teacher, author. He does all kinds of
stuff trying to help with the LGBTQ Youth. Wenna had
the IA plus two in there on the Queer Youth,
and he's also a curator. He's and all kinds of
things there too. But for me, of his many many books,
a Quilt for Damag is my favorites. He knows that
we had a great talk about that on this show.
(01:25):
But when I was at my house, he also had
a book released party which I just put out. You
saw sort of video out there. Put that out for
you guys to see. I was there. I had to
hug him before he went on. But it was packed folks.
It was packed full of folks, people I knew, people
I didn't know. What's coming from. His book is called
Outliving Michael, and I'm gonna read some passages from it
and get to know him and why he wrote this book,
which to me is a love letter to gay friendship.
(01:48):
How many welk M and he's Q two. How many
welcome Stephen Rays, thank.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
You so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be
back and talking with you.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yes, it was a good time. I always ask first
how you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Doing doing great? Doing great? It's you're such an astute reader,
and I appreciate the conversation we had about a quote
for David, and I was so excited to see you
at the book event. And it was also we I
forgot something out of my car. I was going to
my car to get it and I ran into before
the event started. So there was a really nice intro
(02:26):
for my day.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Oh thank you, because we were like because we got
sent to the back and I'm like, there's a back
part of Book Soup. I had no idea Booksheps is great, great, great,
great bookstore, and well it's on Sunda. It's West Holly
Went Sunset. But I know it's a back so I'm like,
where am I going? And I see you coming out
from the back. I guess in the right place. I
gave a hug and then we went and then I
got to go in. But it was it was packed.
(02:48):
It gils congratulations. People came, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, so many people came up for it. The last
time I saw Book Soup that packed was when Patty
Smith was doing a signing and I thought, okay, that's good.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You know it's a good company. Patti Smith, I think great.
He was great company. Okay, so before we get into it,
like I did, bring up, you had a mile some
birthday this year, So welcome to my decade. As I'm
almost leaving it, this book seems to come out at
the right time. It seems like, right, is that a
coincidence or not?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Oh, it's in some ways it is a coincidence, but
in other ways it's not. I like how you said
that this book is about friendship, and I think that
for queer people, friendships sometimes hold more meaning because you know,
they're are family of choice. And you know, Michael, the
(03:36):
subject of the book, was seventeen years older than I
was and significantly wiser, and I was, you know, such
a sponge to you know, I modeled a lot of
my life after him. You know, I didn't know how
to live as a gay man, how to live as
an artist, how to live as an outsider, how to
live I guess people would now say, like in one's
(03:57):
truth and just being authentic who you are, and that's
what he was doing. So you know a lot of
our friendship was me kind of observing and you know,
just being in the in the company of that at
one point in time, there's even a poem in the
book where you know, I'm shopping and I'm drawing on shoes,
and I think about Michael, and I recognize that I've
(04:20):
outlived him, that the person who helped me create a
roadmap is no longer there. And you know, how does
one navigate their lives when they've outlived their role models?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I so, so do you say that? So I want
to mention somebody for me, my friend Tim Dolan, who
I outlived. Reading this made me go back to my
journals of that time period and I and he taught
me how to carry myself as a gay black man
in the world. And this is the late eight eighties,
early nineties, and it's just here was a good example.
(04:57):
But your book, I think if anybody reads this and
I had a friendship like that back in the day
and they have passed on, it's it reminds you of
your maybe your mentor or just somebody you just hung
out with it a lot that was a little older
than you were, because he was older than I was too.
And so your book told you what I wrote. This
is this is my this is my review of your book.
(05:19):
It's a love letter of friendship. It's snapshots it's before
and after, it's now and then. Mm hmm. That's what
I got out this book.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Thank you, Thank you for saying that and even mentioning
your friend Tim that this is. Though it's a book
about Michael, I feel like there's so many universals in
terms of acknowledging friendship, especially young friendship, which can be meaningful,
and the loss of a friend and their place and
influence in our lives. And I think that, you know,
(05:50):
I had a Michael, you had had Tim, and so
many other people out there had their own Michaels.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And Tim's exactly. Yeah, let's say it is. So I'm
going to read one of my favorites. It's just towards
the beginning of this is actually the first one in
the book. But I love it. This says, It just
makes me. I just love it because it's hope I
can do you justice. His father did the books for
Steve Rubel got Michael a job as a bottle boy
(06:17):
at Studio fifty four. Michael said, I probably picked up
three bottles that entire summer. He spent most work hours
on the dance floor. I smile thinking of him, strawberry haired,
sweating in a white T shirt, bar rag in his
low slung jeans, bottle of poppers in his pocket as
(06:39):
he danced. Aides was already in the room, but not
in his body, and no one knew anything anyway. There
was just dancing, sweating, sex, drugs and disco. That whole
poem itself just gives me a whole time. It takes
me back this wenas like the points to that part
(07:01):
of the age was not his body yet, and no
one knew anything anyway, Like it was just when you
think back in hindsight, now, just all my friends who passed,
I don't even know. I mean, I don't know if
you've done this. I have friends you can tell me
I've lost you foreign in mind, I have never sat
and counted. I've lost too many even to even count
(07:22):
how many I've actually lost. So I was just remind
me of all those folks. And I used to go
out dance all time. Oh my god, I was young
and tender. That was out there just was. I had
my long hair and I was working it out. I
still got long hair now. I had a good time.
But that whole that's a generation right there, Steven.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh yeah, And it's that what that generation did, and
we have lost a generation due to AIDS and that
people discuss and we talk about and it significantly impacted
our culture and the arts. I think it also impacted
the people that came after that, the generation after that,
like where mentors.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
There were our friends though, Yeah, that's what I'm and
that's what this is. This is the well, that's why
gay friendship. I just know for me, we had a
circle because we kind of had to hold you. There
was no social media, there was no internets, there was
no apps. I know I saw on those old people,
but it wasn't but it was just kind of like
(08:22):
we we found our tribes and we clung onto them
because some of them were gone were dying.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah. Well, also, it was always important to me that
my friends were smarter than I was. You know, there
wasn't Google where you could look things up and you know,
so to be friends with people who were wise and
had life experiences like these were the people that we
learned from. And that's why those older friendships were so meaningful.
It's that those were the people that held our hand
(08:49):
and helped us navigate through the world.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Now I thought you should do that. I have younger
friends in my life, and I tried to do that
for them. It's like it's kind of I thought, it's
a rite of passage. Right, You meet some folks you're
a little older, and they kind of like you're surroget
mothers and fathers or big brothers or uncles. Right, that's
the point, right.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, definitely. And one of the great things about my
friendship with Michael is that we never had sex. And
I'm grateful for that because I think had we had sex,
I might have trusted the connection a little less or
thought there was an ulterior motive. And I think a
lot of the times, you know, especially me, I'll just
talk about myself at that time, like I needed I
(09:27):
needed a friend. I didn't need another sex partner. I
had plenty of those, okay, but but what I needed
was someone to really see me and appreciate me and
give me time, attention and energy. And that's what I
got for Michael.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Oh No, we're similar on the same way. I wanted
friends because I had left home and I wasn't around
my family anymore. So I was looking for family, I
really was, and say, with him, we never had sex.
He just was a good I looked up to him.
It wasn't because I know in our world, especially back then,
this is this is no shade to anything. But many
(10:04):
people became friends and family because they had sex first,
very common thing back then. It's the pipe slab is now.
But then it morphed into something else and allowed my
straight friends to understand that, like, no, it's not the
same as what you guys do like we sometimes that
was just that was the culture.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, the gay handshake, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Exactly exactly. They couldn't remember the kind of what I lived.
I lived with he was I guess he was an expo.
He's more like my brother at this point. But we
lived together like fourteen years off and on. But we
had dated for a year and a half we first met.
We moved to San Francisco together, and we had our
own part and we weren't. I kept saying, I don't
(10:44):
see him the same way anymore, like and and that's
we we we can do that, yeah, and build a
friendship or a kinship or a familyship with somebody. Is
that we met this particular way, And for me it
was on a personals ad where a back of a
gay newspaper.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Well that's it too, Like when we talk about that
time we you know communication, like you said, like a
personal ad or you know, to schedule time with someone,
you had to leave messages on each other's voicemail, on
their answering machines. That's right, on an answering machine. Or
you would be out and you would go to a
payphone and you would call in to listen to your messages.
(11:23):
And that's how things were coordinated. So the people you
spent time with, it really it took quite a bit
of effort and it was purposeful.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
How'd you meet Michael?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I met Michael through a group of friends. Before I
met him, I even heard his name. I was. It
was living in Naples, Florida. It's a small town. And
he had a drag persona by the name of Blanche.
So I heard Blanche's name before him. The the first
time that we hung out one on one was at
the bar. I had a fake ID, so that's how
(11:54):
I was in there. Go try us at home, right,
and and he though just kind of in the middle
of us hanging out, he had said to me, he said,
you know, you're cute. Make sure he said, I remember
he did this, You're cute. Just make sure you can
back it up, okay. Yeah, And and I remember, you know,
(12:14):
I was pretty confident. I was like, yeah, I think
I can. But actually though it was And then he
talked about how younger gay men rely on their looks
and they don't cultivate anything else in their life. That
they're getting attention for being young and pretty and that
doesn't last forever, and so what else are you going
(12:35):
to bring to the table that And and I had
even witnessed that already in my life of these men
who just kind of didn't have a didn't have as
much going on. So that was one thing where I
thought like, oh, this is this is someone looking out
for me.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I like that. I like that idea. I like that.
I want you to read a passage that poem now, sure, yeah,
put those spectacles on. How to have.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
What is the title or what is it about? I
could what the which poem?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Which one do you want? You choose one? Oh, let
you choose, I'll let you choose. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
This is Oh, this is.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Hard picking out for resident. I'm let him. I'm letting him.
I should we pick one out for you?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I can, okay, I yeah, this is a poem about okay,
and only two of the poems in the book are titled,
so this poem is one of the untitled book titled poems.
(13:55):
I could tell from our conversations Michael's mind was slipping.
Before Sunday morning, all I hooked up at recording device.
I bought it Radio Shack. I wanted to preserve as
much of Michael as I could. I've only listened to
that tape once. Besides its high pitched squeal or my
nervous laugh force, good cheer, inane comments, I fear I
(14:17):
wasn't giving a dying man what he needed. There were
so many things I wanted to say, but didn't know how.
When my grandmother was dying, I walked into her hospice
room and shared my memories of how I felt loved
by her, how she made me laugh, that my life
was better because of her, that I would miss her,
(14:37):
and that in big moments of my life I would
think of her. I told her the things I wish
I said to Michael.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
And I like that. How it's also you know your grandmother,
It's all her twined. Every experience remind you another experience. Yes, right,
seeing Michael get sick? How was that for you.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
It was incredibly painful. He was suffering from dementia and
so it was a slow losing of him. It's that
kind of that long, extended goodbye. He was still quite
sharp and witty, but his demeanor, you know, he he
(15:23):
wasn't as things would frustrate him easily and people and
he would hold on to grudges and somehow, fortunately I
was never the recipient of that, Yeah, And I think
that that made it easier for me as opposed to
some of the other people in his life that you know,
there were arguments or disagreements and it was really difficult
(15:46):
for his mom. At one point in time, his mom
and I were talking outside of Michael, and you know,
I was coming down to visit to essentially take care
of him. But that's not what we were telling Michael.
It was that I was there for an extended visit
so it would help him go to doctor's appointments, help.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Oh yeah, make sure.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
So it it was really hard, and I was also
really young, and I it was probably a mid caregiver
at best, and I regret I wasn't better at it,
But how would I have known to be that kind
of caregiver, which is you know, by the way, this
position I was in isn't unique to me. So many
(16:24):
people have felt this way in the past, but this
is my experience.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Now. Was he your as you mentioned your grandmother, other
than that friend circles? Was it this your major first
friend death or did you have others that were equally.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Is I had others? There is something about that grandmother
poem just recognizing that you know that you have friends
dying before your grandmother.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Dies, right, it's so yeah, that natural.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah. And I had a lover, Ittilo Renault, who's there's
a poem mentioning him that died not while we were together,
just after we broke up. And I you know in
the poem, I don't tell Michael about it. Would you
like me to read that?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Please? Yes? Love it? Love it, love it? Yes, they said,
these are like little snapshots. I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I like how you said that, because it does really
feel that way. Actually, like these kind of quick moments
that compile, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Because the way you structure the book is very interesting
and the show because in between the pages, I thought,
it's not a straight up just poetry book, It's a
story book.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, thank you. See, if I could find this.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Try and finding kids. Yes, sorry, is.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
This something that will be edited out later or is
this just a long awkward.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
You could always edit things?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Ass all right, perfect, Okay, this.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Is called it is called imprompt It's almost like live folks.
This is like almost like live television. But the thing is,
when you know, we have conversations, you bring somebody, it's
like that's a great thing that they bring up. They
get somebody who passed, and it's your mind. I mean,
it's just it's a whole and you don't tell Michael
about it. And the things we do for our friends,
you know, the things we do.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You'll find it when we're done, of course. You know
you're driving home, you're like, oh my god, it's page
fifty five.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, I'm so sorry, James.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Oh here the yearning.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yes, I dated Ittelo Renault before meeting Michael. Our passionate
affair evolved. I dated Ittelo Vernault before meeting Michael. Our
passionate affair involved writing letters, lots of fucking, and only
one argument about trust that was big enough to kill
the romance but not the friendship. We talked on the phone,
(19:23):
gave book recommendations when he didn't return my call. I
assumed he was busy. Then one day his line was disconnected.
I called the salon where he worked, and a voice
on the other end said Itelo had died and gave
me his mother's number. Renee was as sweet as Itelo
said she was. He had been sick, gone to the
(19:45):
emergency room. They sent him home, said the fever would pass.
He dead alone in his bed at the age of
twenty six, and was found two days later. I barely
kept my composure on the phone, And though he was
my best friend, I never said anything to Michael. What
I wanted to do was warn him about the things
(20:07):
he already knew, that this virus was a killer, that
he should be cautious, and that the very medical professionals
we wanted to trust we shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
I was out there protesting. So yes, I mean that
every time you, every time you read a passage, right,
I just I'm taking right back that time period, you know,
where you couldn't trust your medical professionals, and these vibrant
young men were just not a vibrant anymore. I just
(20:39):
I just we lived through it. I can, I can.
We lived it, and by the grace of whatever. I
never became positive and I didn't, you know, I don't
don't know why me. I mean, I wasn't I wasn't
safe as I could be. I wasn't always perfect at all. No,
And don't claim to me, right, It's just that we
all were live in our lives, you know, freely, and
this disease came in.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Well. Yeah, and also that just even hearing you say that,
like that incredible shame. We had the times that we
didn't you know, we weren't as safe as we could
have been, and you know, to say that, and there
were so such like terrible messaging out there. It was
a really difficult time, and especially for a community that
was undervalued, under attack.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
I had you on their own. Yeah. I was part
of Active Sacramento at one point. When I was there,
I worked with the SFA's Foundation. I was a big
actors in San Francisco, always working on the medical side
of things, you know, And it's and I just remember,
as I said, read these things, it just takes you
back to the time of where I kind of got
(21:43):
both sides of it on some level because we were
trying to save lives. It's not perfect, and there's you know,
some things are you extreme on something in you know,
And when we were closing the bath houses down and
we had sex clubs popping up in the nineties, I
was all part of all that stuff, but there were
I understood. I mean it was I get where some
(22:03):
of the people are scared. I mean that's what that's
just just break it downstair, just break it down to
brass tacks. People are scared.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
And uninformed and under educated because the information wasn't there.
So yeah, it's in some ways, I'm so proud of
queer people though. Yes, we're such a resilient bunch and
to do it with such flair and personality and you know,
just talk about a group of survivors and people who
(22:32):
thrive under all circumstances and right now feels really scary.
But I have a lot of faith in our community.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yes, I mean I'm When COVID tired, we're like, oh,
we've been this before, Okay, Like, oh yeah, we know
something like a pandemic's happening as a virus going through
You're like, oh, we know that. That looks familiar. I
had to chuck late that at first. It's kind of
like like in light of COVID just said we had
a chuck late that kind of going, yeah, we've been
through something like this before, but now it's mainstream, let's
get the air quotes. Where So now I should I'll
(23:01):
be worried, But we were worried back when it wasn't mainstream. Yeah,
who's that? When you think of Michael now, where is
he in your life?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Mm hmm. That's such a good question. I mean, in
some ways, he's still very present in my life because
I think about him often because he touched me so deeply.
And also I spent years writing this book and living
with memories of Michael, and you know, ways of telling
the story of Michael's life and his impact on my
(23:36):
own life. Where is he now? It's it's he's still
very sweet and very dear to me. Also, one thing
that I didn't expect is the book coming out and
that his relatives, his brothers, his nephews are reaching out
to me, and oh, I know, and that's great.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I know.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
It's it's so touching in there. They're sending me sweet
messages and his brother even is mailing me a large
image of Michael. That was because Michael was a performer,
so it's a photo of Michael on stage, and I
remember this photo of Michael's bedroom, So it's I'm so
touched and I'm glad that I was able to, you know,
(24:21):
create a portrait of someone that they love as well.
And you know, so that this book is you know,
hopefully meaningful to people outside of who knew Michael. It's
so meaningful that it it has their stamp of approval.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
So you can't, you can't. You're better than that at all.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Also, you know, I love that I get to introduce
Michael to somebody.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
That's my next thing. That's my next thing. That's my
next question is like what what what? So this is
this is, you know, pieces of Michael in a book,
But so what was the message you were trying to
get out to people about him?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I think, really, this is someone who was important. This
is someone who was loved and who deeply loved me
and had an impact on my life. And I also
think there are a lot of dynamics that people can
relate to. Yes, yeah, people in their own lives. You know,
it's sometimes a touchy subject to write about the people
(25:21):
in our lives, yes, and create artwork around them. And
if they're around, we can ask their permission, but I
didn't have that with Michael. What I did find and
it was actually during the pandemic, when you know, we
had nothing to do but organize our everything. At our home,
I was going through and I keep a lot of
(25:42):
the letters that people have sent me, and so I
decided to start organizing them alphabetic and I encountered a
note Michael wrote me. When I was taking care of him,
his sleep schedule was erratic. He was up late at
night and I woke up in the morning to find
a note. He had seen some poets on television and
suggested I check out their work. And on the other
(26:03):
side of the piece of paper, he wrote, I have
two subjects for you to write about me of course
and me.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yes, it's in the book, folks. That's the first that's
the first page is and that is that his.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Handwriting is Michael's handwriting.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Oh my god, I'm fun Okay, I like that. Yes,
so I recognize that, he said. I was like, I
think that's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, and and so for me, it was this lovely
permission to just keep going.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
It's that's actual notes. Yeah, I love it. I don't
love that it tells you about his person tells you
about his personality right there, just reading that as long
as like, it's enough about me, it's about you. What
do you think about me? You know a famous thing
from Beaches. I guess it's just hilarious that that's him,
get you subject about me?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, and he even so that poem I read about
my grandmother and the recording for the audio book. I thought,
you know, in a in this book, people encounter Michael's
image on the cover. Yes, it was on the inside
of the book. And I thought it would be really
nice for people to hear Michael's voice.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Wait, so there's audio. Is the audio out? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
The audiobook.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I got to listen. I want to listen to that now.
Now I want to listen to that. So you included
that in there? I was great.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
So, yeah, excerpts from that recording are in the audio book.
And I love that people can hear Michael and how
quick he was and just the turns of phrases. It's
it's so nice that and people are like, oh, how
how would Michael have felt? It was like Michael loved
an audience. Oh, I'm sure I just loved this Like
that that we're here talking about it like this. Oh
(27:36):
he would have been happy.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Why it's my brother published my journals. I don't care.
I like being a star. We read everything. I don't care.
He always laughs. But that's the thing. So a guy's listening.
I want to listen to audiobooks. I want to hear that.
But when you were choosing actual material, you say, we're
trying for years. How is it morphed into this? Like
(27:58):
I said, it's like little story because you are poets,
but you're also a writer. You've written books, but but
the style is kind of poetry, but it's like stories.
So how did you come to that?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Well? I, you know, poetry is the language of our emotions, right,
and so it was important for me to convey something
emotionally in it, which is more important than biographical details.
But I did want those details to be accurate. I
should Jinny to do that again.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah again?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
What was your question?
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Oh? My god? So all I can't remember anymore, I know.
And then the creation detailsila.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I know, it's what was I saying. I forgot where
I was going, though, it was more what it was,
which you can't answer.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Well, to start over, to start over, okay, do this
other question. So in the creation of this book, when
you first started, you're writing for years. You know, poetry
is your style, but it's actually short stories, like those
short stories, So how'd you come to that style? And
you were so then you were talking once before about
how poetry is our language, you know stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I want my work to be accessible. I do not
appreciate poems that are riddles or you know, a reader
feels like they need to solve it. What I want
is the reader to have this emotional experience and to
feel something and to be moved and motivated. And you know,
hearing you say that, it's the biggest compliment. That's what
I'm aiming to do with my work.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Well it is, I mean literally is. But I noticed
that there's a through line and maybe because we are
being to our golden year, so we still look good though,
I'm going with that look good. Yeah, he looks good.
But the last called books quot for David and this
totally taking back in time to a time period that
(29:50):
I don't want us to forget about because the younger
generations just have no connection to it. And I was
some love like, get why they don't, But it's d
of like, it's still part of our history and their's too.
So how are you dealing with all this emotional stuff
You've done? These last a couple of books have been
kind of emotional.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, thank you. And the book in between, the chat
book in between is For the Love of Peter who
jar which is about the photographer Peter whojar ittavates and
it is it's interesting to me as well that it's
you know, this subject has you know, taken up so
much of my life, and I'm also okay with it.
(30:31):
There's something I trust the page, and in writing is
where I work things out. I don't you know. One
of the things about writing this book is is trying
to figure it out or trying to make sense of
something difficult. And that's what my writing has always offered me.
And it's why I'm so invested and I want to
(30:53):
get the experience, you know, I'm looking for insight. I'm
looking for, you know, to describe something in detail where
I accurately pinpoint what it is, what the experience was.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Like for me.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
So in that way, I am such a hard worker
and so focused and so it's just really what's held
my fascination and also what's what I'm trying to make
sense of.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
That makes sense of Okay, like that I can understand
that my last I'm a recording artist. I have a
couple of albums out right now and they're very eighties.
I know, for me, I'm working out those are those
were some really memorable, wonderful times for me because I
(31:40):
was young and I didn't know a lot of stuff
and everything hadn't happened yet. And right now I'm going
through a lot of you know, I have an aging parent,
I have you know, I have a lot going on.
I'm running a business and I got stuff going on,
and like those are simpler times, and so I know
it's coming out in my creative space. So I'm warning
for yous that's i'ming similar to that kind of you're
(32:01):
going back in time, so to speak, but you know,
because today things are kind of weird. But I don't
know these days.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think maybe in some way it was
you know, those experiences like what was that? Yeah, you know,
like and I think just being in survival mode, it's
hard to process all of it at the time because
we're just so just trying to get by. Yes, and
you know, in a lot of ways. I think that's
you know, what was going on.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
You know. Yeah, someone asked me, how did you get
the time O? Because I said, you just did first,
I just do it. It was still it was life.
It was part of our lives. I may not be
the part of your life now, but it was part
of our lives. You still were striving to have a life.
I still wanted to fall in love, I still had
to work at jobs, and still I still wanted friends.
I still want to go party. I mean, there are
(32:49):
things I still wanted to do in the middle of
this through line that was happening. You could just stop living.
I'm sure people did well. You just couldn't stop just
living and be afraid the whole time, right.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
And it's living with that complexity, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, because you can't just stop because then life there's
something always going on. So you can't just stop all.
I can't live it always has done. You can't do that,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I have a poem in the book that after Michael died,
I started working for an HIV organization and I was
doing testing and counseling, and I was in that field
for years, and so many friends were concerned about me
because it was consuming so much of my life at
my time. But you know, I would tell them it.
You know, it was kind of like hurricanes in Florida
(33:34):
that the safest place was in the calmest place was
in the center of the storm. And for me, I
think that's, you know, one way I've lived my life,
but that's how I was living my life.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Then.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I just felt like to just jump in the very
middle of it and be there. That felt really calm.
At least it felt like I was doing something. I
was putting positive effort towards the good.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Was anything you were going over stuff and as you
were a rhinous for several years. Is there anything you
just kept for yourself about you and Michael that you
did not put in the book.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
That is a great question, because.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Being transparents great and all. But sometimes you're thinking, they're
just things that I keep for myself. I don't want
to share, you know, Or you're like, I want to
share everything. I'm gonna share it all. There you go.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know, there are things that you know, if I
were a true researcher, I would have listened to that
audio recording again and written poems about some of the
things we talked about or maybe tried to write poems
about it, but instead I listened to the audio recording
only only right before recording the audiobook. That poem where
(34:47):
I said I only listened to it once was true,
And listening to it again, I was reminded of so
many things between the two of us. And here in
this one conversation where Michael is telling me about a
doctor's diagnosis and talking about some frustrations he had with friends.
Then the conversation goes on to be where we start
(35:10):
talking about mid century furniture. You know, we start talking
about it some one of those things like when you
talk about like holding complexity, and I mean there's something
about that that's so.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
So gay, yes, and so ordinary and so ordinary.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yes, Like yeah, yeah. We were talking like because he
came to visit. Mean, he really loved how I decorated
my heart, so we talked about it, like so just
that thing like he's dying. But we're also talking about
furniture like that. You know, there are things like that
that just didn't make it into the book because I
didn't recall. And you know, I do want to encourage people,
(35:44):
like you know, you keep a journal, to keep journals
or hold on to photographs and do as much as
you can to back them up. And you know, I
like holding on to letters. What's interesting is I did
not look through my journals before, you know, for anything.
For this book. I felt like what I remember wasn't off.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Okay, that's a choice, has a choice. I want to
read another poem, sure, sometimes this's my other poem I
like of his. Oh this is why I like this one.
This gives me his personality. Also, I wish to be
on the cover of magazine, and the editor emailed questions,
(36:25):
but Michael called. I read him my replies. He was quiet,
and then he told me to answer more thoughtfully, respond
as if your soulmate will read it. I scrapped every
word I wrote, as if my answers were a beacon
and that magazine the lighthouse. I called Michael the next day,
(36:49):
read him my new answers, and I could feel his
smile through the phone. There you go. I still take
his advice. Think of that unknown, unnamed man I'm to
love forever and who had loved me forever. Sometimes I
think of Michael as my perfect audience, ear pressed to
the receiver, waiting to hear every word, believing greatness was
(37:13):
in me and if my words met his expectations for me,
you'll reply there you go. I actually cried. I read
that one. Well, my favorites because it's it's it's the
it's here and now I said earlier, it's past and present.
He was giving you advice. You were answering probably cutes
and whatever, and you know, you think it's a magazine,
(37:35):
I'm gonna aswer and he's like saying no. But the
fact that he said as if your soul made is
going to read it, he's saying, go deep.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah, I know. And that's that was, uh favor similar
to the advice you know that. I mean, someone's just
looking out for me.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
And I think my answers were so like and my
initial answers were so like shallow and superficial.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, uh.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah. And I think how fortunate was I to have
this man as a friend.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
He was honest with you, just like clan your friends,
like on cl on girl, that's not gonna cut it.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yes, yeah, And actually that that was one of the
gifts about Michael. He you know, it could be quite
self involved, but yet when he gave to you, it
was like an unrefracted beam of light that it was
like there was nothing for anyone. I mean, it was
he gave so purely that it was unlike anything I
(38:35):
had ever experienced. And that's one of those examples of
when he did that, And you know, it was one
of the first times I was in print, and it
was just such great advice, you know, and I'm glad
that I have that record of of him and his point.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Well, the thing is, it's you know, some of the
bigger personalities I can we called that many times. We
do have a we do have an ocean of deepness
in us. We may not show it all the time,
we may not give it to you every day, but
when you need it, we provide. So I'm thinking that's
(39:12):
a think back some my friends who had drag queens
backing any longer with us back in the day, and
they were just so theatrical and so I mean, oh
I got one liners or five minutes, but when the
chips were down or someone was needed, they came through
with the best advice, you know what I mean. It's
like anybody people are three dimensional human beings. Your book
tells us that basically we're all just one thing. It's
(39:34):
like we're all several things.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Thank you, yeah, and even myself too, like it wasn't
uh you know, I even say some uncomfortable things about
myself in the book and who I was at that time,
and sometimes I felt a little resentful about some of
the things that Michael did. And it's you know, because
that's that's part of it too. I think one of
the greatest things we can do and feel is to
(39:59):
feel loved holly by someone that when someone recognizes and
you know, like the fullness of who we are, and
I think that is incredibly loving. Is that you know,
those friends and lovers and family members who totally understand
your faults and yet they're still there offering support and
(40:21):
love and encouragement.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I think the thing we have to realize too is
just you know, that's just age getting older. Hopefully not
everybody does, but hopefully you're getting more comfortable on your skin,
because looking inwards one of the hardest things you can do,
and it's not easy. People think you can look in
word it's oh, I just like talking, but to admit
things about yourself it's really hard. But I think when
(40:43):
you get older, you start to just learning, you know, yeah,
I'm this way. Yeah, I'm that way. Yeah, I do this.
It gets a little easier. And I think that's why
why you could write stuff about yourself in this book.
They mean it'd be a little unflattering to admit, you know. Yeah,
I was a little petty at this time. I was
a snot. I was like, who is that? I have
(41:04):
a few ti asking those I actually got to make
amends with somebody recently that I had kind of did
wrong thirty years ago. It was kind of crazy and
present itself, and I was like, you know what, I'm
gonna admit that I did wrong, and you and I
both know I did wrong, and it's all fine with
right now.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Oh that's and it's never too late to apologize for
something or take responsibility. Yeah, and I also think it's
okay to apologize more than once.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yeah, you know what, you know what?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
You only know what you know what? You know what
you know, right, I mean, I'm twenty five years old.
I think I know everything probably at the time, But
you don't you think so at thirty you think so
at thirty five. You are who you are up to
that point, right, And you could be book smart and
have and I got degrees to you, I got letters
out to my name. But in life you can still
(41:50):
be naive or petty, or sad or not as supportive.
You can make mistakes. It's just that's just how humans
are built, and you can always learn from it if
you do it right. That's how I get it. Adds. So,
as you're outliving Michael, what is your message to others
(42:14):
who've outlived their Michaels Mmm.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
I I wonder if I do have a message directly
as much as I am in hopes that by my
sharing my experiences it normalizes theirs and that this is
something you know, Like you said, it's a book about friendship,
and I you know that's so important for us to
(42:39):
talk about the values of our you know, the value
of friendship also about losing a friend, and it's it's
a very different kind of loss.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
It's one thing to be married to someone and lose
us husband or a wife. It's another thing to lose
a friend. And how impactful that is.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
We'll always say friendships in many cases are the strongest
of relations other than meet outside a parent, child, outside
of lovers, outside of spouses, outside of siblings, because you
choose each other. Yes, that's what's so interesting, right. And
I've had friend breakups that were I mean like I'm
(43:24):
on the floor sobbing, hurt for years later. And I've
had a breakup with but I was like I'm done
after a while. Like friendships, I think are undervalued in
terms out they're importance.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yes, yeah. And also, you know we're in a you
know this like how many friends or how many followers
you have? That's different than a friend, like a true friend?
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, who can you call it two in the morning seriously,
and to say, oh my god, I can't sleep, or
I'm in a dark spot.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Can you just talk to me you or that, Hey,
I'm feeling really lonely right now. Oh I need some company,
or oh I need your help as I try to
work through this. Those are true friends. I also there
was something I heard recently that being a good friend
also means inconveniencing yourself. And the people who complain they
don't have friends, those are the people who don't inconvenience themselves.
(44:18):
And I think that's true.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
I think that's that notes the book is outliving Michael
and Steven, can you tell people where you can find you?
And all your work. Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
People can find out about me at Stephenraains dot com
Stephen wi A V Rain's r E I G N S.
And the book is sold. You can pick it up
anywhere at your local bookstore or order it. The audiobook
is exclusively on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
That's something we go. I gotta listen to it. I
always like end my dis show with the importance of books,
the importance of indie authors, the importance of we don't
ban books. We don't like that here in our channel,
and that books aren't going anywhere, whether it's audible, whether
(45:05):
it's kindle, whether it's physical copies. People are reading more
than ever and I just and I believe there's so many,
so many things you can get from reading books. So
I will always support that. I want books and schools.
I want books outside of schools. Libraries you stay open.
I'm a big perport of a library. I got a
library card. It was all time. They also have online
(45:27):
use a libry card online that they called libby Gal.
There all kind of stuff. Just that it's reading. It's
not about being just like I'm a smart person guy read.
It's just because you can take you places you've never
been before. They expose you to things you've never seen
or heard. That's always a wonderful and wonderful thing. I said.
We do hear in between the pages of James Junior.
We're on Facebook I where all James Lou Juniors are
(45:49):
sold at James Loungr. I'm expensive on also just to
be a platforms I am by, including TikTok and Jljvidia's
and we're also thank you for joining me, my friend.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Thank you so much for having me again, and thank
you to.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
You podcasters studios here in Hollywood. I'll use information on
that too on the description. So if you want to
come down here and do some filming, do it. Tell
him Jane sent you. To see you next time.
You, guys, You're not this is this is a dream
because I'm in person again. I am in person and
not at my zoom at my desk with my cheese.
It's on one side and my coffee on the other.
I'm actually in a studio coming to you from you
Padcaster Studios in Hollywood. It's in between the pages of
James Lot Junior. Who am I James Lot Junior? Of course,
(00:20):
and I returned guests, but I thought this guest deserves
to be in person. And I'm so glad you're here
with me. So I'm going to give you a kind
of cliff notes version because he has a long resume
in bio, but we'll give you a cliff notes version. This
person is celebrating a milestone birthday and somebody's still younger
than me, and I understand what that's all about. And
(00:43):
he has degrees. You know, he has degrees. You're smart,
He has degrees and everything. But one reason is why
I like it. Because he's a poet. He's a writer,
and notably he was appointed and in West Hollywood their
first poet laureate. Okay, the first, never forget your first. Also,
(01:03):
he's a speaker, teacher, author. He does all kinds of
stuff trying to help with the LGBTQ Youth. Wenna had
the IA plus two in there on the Queer Youth,
and he's also a curator. He's and all kinds of
things there too. But for me, of his many many books,
a Quilt for Damag is my favorites. He knows that
we had a great talk about that on this show.
(01:25):
But when I was at my house, he also had
a book released party which I just put out. You
saw sort of video out there. Put that out for
you guys to see. I was there. I had to
hug him before he went on. But it was packed folks.
It was packed full of folks, people I knew, people
I didn't know. What's coming from. His book is called
Outliving Michael, and I'm gonna read some passages from it
and get to know him and why he wrote this book,
which to me is a love letter to gay friendship.
(01:48):
How many welk M and he's Q two. How many
welcome Stephen Rays, thank.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
You so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be
back and talking with you.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yes, it was a good time. I always ask first
how you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Doing doing great? Doing great? It's you're such an astute reader,
and I appreciate the conversation we had about a quote
for David, and I was so excited to see you
at the book event. And it was also we I
forgot something out of my car. I was going to
my car to get it and I ran into before
the event started. So there was a really nice intro
(02:26):
for my day.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Oh thank you, because we were like because we got
sent to the back and I'm like, there's a back
part of Book Soup. I had no idea Booksheps is great, great, great,
great bookstore, and well it's on Sunda. It's West Holly
Went Sunset. But I know it's a back so I'm like,
where am I going? And I see you coming out
from the back. I guess in the right place. I
gave a hug and then we went and then I
got to go in. But it was it was packed.
(02:48):
It gils congratulations. People came, thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, so many people came up for it. The last
time I saw Book Soup that packed was when Patty
Smith was doing a signing and I thought, okay, that's good.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You know it's a good company. Patti Smith, I think great.
He was great company. Okay, so before we get into it,
like I did, bring up, you had a mile some
birthday this year, So welcome to my decade. As I'm
almost leaving it, this book seems to come out at
the right time. It seems like, right, is that a
coincidence or not?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Oh, it's in some ways it is a coincidence, but
in other ways it's not. I like how you said
that this book is about friendship, and I think that
for queer people, friendships sometimes hold more meaning because you know,
they're are family of choice. And you know, Michael, the
(03:36):
subject of the book, was seventeen years older than I
was and significantly wiser, and I was, you know, such
a sponge to you know, I modeled a lot of
my life after him. You know, I didn't know how
to live as a gay man, how to live as
an artist, how to live as an outsider, how to
live I guess people would now say, like in one's
(03:57):
truth and just being authentic who you are, and that's
what he was doing. So you know a lot of
our friendship was me kind of observing and you know,
just being in the in the company of that at
one point in time, there's even a poem in the
book where you know, I'm shopping and I'm drawing on shoes,
and I think about Michael, and I recognize that I've
(04:20):
outlived him, that the person who helped me create a
roadmap is no longer there. And you know, how does
one navigate their lives when they've outlived their role models?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I so, so do you say that? So I want
to mention somebody for me, my friend Tim Dolan, who
I outlived. Reading this made me go back to my
journals of that time period and I and he taught
me how to carry myself as a gay black man
in the world. And this is the late eight eighties,
early nineties, and it's just here was a good example.
(04:57):
But your book, I think if anybody reads this and
I had a friendship like that back in the day
and they have passed on, it's it reminds you of
your maybe your mentor or just somebody you just hung
out with it a lot that was a little older
than you were, because he was older than I was too.
And so your book told you what I wrote. This
is this is my this is my review of your book.
(05:19):
It's a love letter of friendship. It's snapshots it's before
and after, it's now and then. Mm hmm. That's what
I got out this book.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Thank you, Thank you for saying that and even mentioning
your friend Tim that this is. Though it's a book
about Michael, I feel like there's so many universals in
terms of acknowledging friendship, especially young friendship, which can be meaningful,
and the loss of a friend and their place and
influence in our lives. And I think that, you know,
(05:50):
I had a Michael, you had had Tim, and so
many other people out there had their own Michaels.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And Tim's exactly. Yeah, let's say it is. So I'm
going to read one of my favorites. It's just towards
the beginning of this is actually the first one in
the book. But I love it. This says, It just
makes me. I just love it because it's hope I
can do you justice. His father did the books for
Steve Rubel got Michael a job as a bottle boy
(06:17):
at Studio fifty four. Michael said, I probably picked up
three bottles that entire summer. He spent most work hours
on the dance floor. I smile thinking of him, strawberry haired,
sweating in a white T shirt, bar rag in his
low slung jeans, bottle of poppers in his pocket as
(06:39):
he danced. Aides was already in the room, but not
in his body, and no one knew anything anyway. There
was just dancing, sweating, sex, drugs and disco. That whole
poem itself just gives me a whole time. It takes
me back this wenas like the points to that part
(07:01):
of the age was not his body yet, and no
one knew anything anyway, Like it was just when you
think back in hindsight, now, just all my friends who passed,
I don't even know. I mean, I don't know if
you've done this. I have friends you can tell me
I've lost you foreign in mind, I have never sat
and counted. I've lost too many even to even count
(07:22):
how many I've actually lost. So I was just remind
me of all those folks. And I used to go
out dance all time. Oh my god, I was young
and tender. That was out there just was. I had
my long hair and I was working it out. I
still got long hair now. I had a good time.
But that whole that's a generation right there, Steven.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh yeah, And it's that what that generation did, and
we have lost a generation due to AIDS and that
people discuss and we talk about and it significantly impacted
our culture and the arts. I think it also impacted
the people that came after that, the generation after that,
like where mentors.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
There were our friends though, Yeah, that's what I'm and
that's what this is. This is the well, that's why
gay friendship. I just know for me, we had a
circle because we kind of had to hold you. There
was no social media, there was no internets, there was
no apps. I know I saw on those old people,
but it wasn't but it was just kind of like
(08:22):
we we found our tribes and we clung onto them
because some of them were gone were dying.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah. Well, also, it was always important to me that
my friends were smarter than I was. You know, there
wasn't Google where you could look things up and you know,
so to be friends with people who were wise and
had life experiences like these were the people that we
learned from. And that's why those older friendships were so meaningful.
It's that those were the people that held our hand
(08:49):
and helped us navigate through the world.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Now I thought you should do that. I have younger
friends in my life, and I tried to do that
for them. It's like it's kind of I thought, it's
a rite of passage. Right, You meet some folks you're
a little older, and they kind of like you're surroget
mothers and fathers or big brothers or uncles. Right, that's
the point, right.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, definitely. And one of the great things about my
friendship with Michael is that we never had sex. And
I'm grateful for that because I think had we had sex,
I might have trusted the connection a little less or
thought there was an ulterior motive. And I think a
lot of the times, you know, especially me, I'll just
talk about myself at that time, like I needed I
(09:27):
needed a friend. I didn't need another sex partner. I
had plenty of those, okay, but but what I needed
was someone to really see me and appreciate me and
give me time, attention and energy. And that's what I
got for Michael.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Oh No, we're similar on the same way. I wanted
friends because I had left home and I wasn't around
my family anymore. So I was looking for family, I
really was, and say, with him, we never had sex.
He just was a good I looked up to him.
It wasn't because I know in our world, especially back then,
this is this is no shade to anything. But many
(10:04):
people became friends and family because they had sex first,
very common thing back then. It's the pipe slab is now.
But then it morphed into something else and allowed my
straight friends to understand that, like, no, it's not the
same as what you guys do like we sometimes that
was just that was the culture.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, the gay handshake, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Exactly exactly. They couldn't remember the kind of what I lived.
I lived with he was I guess he was an expo.
He's more like my brother at this point. But we
lived together like fourteen years off and on. But we
had dated for a year and a half we first met.
We moved to San Francisco together, and we had our
own part and we weren't. I kept saying, I don't
(10:44):
see him the same way anymore, like and and that's
we we we can do that, yeah, and build a
friendship or a kinship or a familyship with somebody. Is
that we met this particular way, And for me it
was on a personals ad where a back of a
gay newspaper.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Well that's it too, Like when we talk about that
time we you know communication, like you said, like a
personal ad or you know, to schedule time with someone,
you had to leave messages on each other's voicemail, on
their answering machines. That's right, on an answering machine. Or
you would be out and you would go to a
payphone and you would call in to listen to your messages.
(11:23):
And that's how things were coordinated. So the people you
spent time with, it really it took quite a bit
of effort and it was purposeful.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
How'd you meet Michael?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I met Michael through a group of friends. Before I
met him, I even heard his name. I was. It
was living in Naples, Florida. It's a small town. And
he had a drag persona by the name of Blanche.
So I heard Blanche's name before him. The the first
time that we hung out one on one was at
the bar. I had a fake ID, so that's how
(11:54):
I was in there. Go try us at home, right,
and and he though just kind of in the middle
of us hanging out, he had said to me, he said,
you know, you're cute. Make sure he said, I remember
he did this, You're cute. Just make sure you can
back it up, okay. Yeah, And and I remember, you know,
(12:14):
I was pretty confident. I was like, yeah, I think
I can. But actually though it was And then he
talked about how younger gay men rely on their looks
and they don't cultivate anything else in their life. That
they're getting attention for being young and pretty and that
doesn't last forever, and so what else are you going
(12:35):
to bring to the table that And and I had
even witnessed that already in my life of these men
who just kind of didn't have a didn't have as
much going on. So that was one thing where I
thought like, oh, this is this is someone looking out
for me.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I like that. I like that idea. I like that.
I want you to read a passage that poem now, sure, yeah,
put those spectacles on. How to have.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
What is the title or what is it about? I
could what the which poem?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Which one do you want? You choose one? Oh, let
you choose, I'll let you choose. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
This is Oh, this is.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Hard picking out for resident. I'm let him. I'm letting him.
I should we pick one out for you?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I can, okay, I yeah, this is a poem about okay,
and only two of the poems in the book are titled,
so this poem is one of the untitled book titled poems.
(13:55):
I could tell from our conversations Michael's mind was slipping.
Before Sunday morning, all I hooked up at recording device.
I bought it Radio Shack. I wanted to preserve as
much of Michael as I could. I've only listened to
that tape once. Besides its high pitched squeal or my
nervous laugh force, good cheer, inane comments, I fear I
(14:17):
wasn't giving a dying man what he needed. There were
so many things I wanted to say, but didn't know how.
When my grandmother was dying, I walked into her hospice
room and shared my memories of how I felt loved
by her, how she made me laugh, that my life
was better because of her, that I would miss her,
(14:37):
and that in big moments of my life I would
think of her. I told her the things I wish
I said to Michael.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
And I like that. How it's also you know your grandmother,
It's all her twined. Every experience remind you another experience. Yes, right,
seeing Michael get sick? How was that for you.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
It was incredibly painful. He was suffering from dementia and
so it was a slow losing of him. It's that
kind of that long, extended goodbye. He was still quite
sharp and witty, but his demeanor, you know, he he
(15:23):
wasn't as things would frustrate him easily and people and
he would hold on to grudges and somehow, fortunately I
was never the recipient of that, Yeah, And I think
that that made it easier for me as opposed to
some of the other people in his life that you know,
there were arguments or disagreements and it was really difficult
(15:46):
for his mom. At one point in time, his mom
and I were talking outside of Michael, and you know,
I was coming down to visit to essentially take care
of him. But that's not what we were telling Michael.
It was that I was there for an extended visit
so it would help him go to doctor's appointments, help.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Oh yeah, make sure.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
So it it was really hard, and I was also
really young, and I it was probably a mid caregiver
at best, and I regret I wasn't better at it,
But how would I have known to be that kind
of caregiver, which is you know, by the way, this
position I was in isn't unique to me. So many
(16:24):
people have felt this way in the past, but this
is my experience.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Now. Was he your as you mentioned your grandmother, other
than that friend circles? Was it this your major first
friend death or did you have others that were equally.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Is I had others? There is something about that grandmother
poem just recognizing that you know that you have friends
dying before your grandmother.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Dies, right, it's so yeah, that natural.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah. And I had a lover, Ittilo Renault, who's there's
a poem mentioning him that died not while we were together,
just after we broke up. And I you know in
the poem, I don't tell Michael about it. Would you
like me to read that?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Please? Yes? Love it? Love it, love it? Yes, they said,
these are like little snapshots. I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I like how you said that, because it does really
feel that way. Actually, like these kind of quick moments
that compile, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Because the way you structure the book is very interesting
and the show because in between the pages, I thought,
it's not a straight up just poetry book, It's a
story book.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, thank you. See, if I could find this.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Try and finding kids. Yes, sorry, is.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
This something that will be edited out later or is
this just a long awkward.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
You could always edit things?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Ass all right, perfect, Okay, this.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Is called it is called imprompt It's almost like live folks.
This is like almost like live television. But the thing is,
when you know, we have conversations, you bring somebody, it's
like that's a great thing that they bring up. They
get somebody who passed, and it's your mind. I mean,
it's just it's a whole and you don't tell Michael
about it. And the things we do for our friends,
you know, the things we do.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You'll find it when we're done, of course. You know
you're driving home, you're like, oh my god, it's page
fifty five.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, I'm so sorry, James.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Oh here the yearning.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yes, I dated Ittelo Renault before meeting Michael. Our passionate
affair evolved. I dated Ittelo Vernault before meeting Michael. Our
passionate affair involved writing letters, lots of fucking, and only
one argument about trust that was big enough to kill
the romance but not the friendship. We talked on the phone,
(19:23):
gave book recommendations when he didn't return my call. I
assumed he was busy. Then one day his line was disconnected.
I called the salon where he worked, and a voice
on the other end said Itelo had died and gave
me his mother's number. Renee was as sweet as Itelo
said she was. He had been sick, gone to the
(19:45):
emergency room. They sent him home, said the fever would pass.
He dead alone in his bed at the age of
twenty six, and was found two days later. I barely
kept my composure on the phone, And though he was
my best friend, I never said anything to Michael. What
I wanted to do was warn him about the things
(20:07):
he already knew, that this virus was a killer, that
he should be cautious, and that the very medical professionals
we wanted to trust we shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
I was out there protesting. So yes, I mean that
every time you, every time you read a passage, right,
I just I'm taking right back that time period, you know,
where you couldn't trust your medical professionals, and these vibrant
young men were just not a vibrant anymore. I just
(20:39):
I just we lived through it. I can, I can.
We lived it, and by the grace of whatever. I
never became positive and I didn't, you know, I don't
don't know why me. I mean, I wasn't I wasn't
safe as I could be. I wasn't always perfect at all. No,
And don't claim to me, right, It's just that we
all were live in our lives, you know, freely, and
this disease came in.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Well. Yeah, and also that just even hearing you say that,
like that incredible shame. We had the times that we
didn't you know, we weren't as safe as we could
have been, and you know, to say that, and there
were so such like terrible messaging out there. It was
a really difficult time, and especially for a community that
was undervalued, under attack.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
I had you on their own. Yeah. I was part
of Active Sacramento at one point. When I was there,
I worked with the SFA's Foundation. I was a big
actors in San Francisco, always working on the medical side
of things, you know, And it's and I just remember,
as I said, read these things, it just takes you
back to the time of where I kind of got
(21:43):
both sides of it on some level because we were
trying to save lives. It's not perfect, and there's you know,
some things are you extreme on something in you know,
And when we were closing the bath houses down and
we had sex clubs popping up in the nineties, I
was all part of all that stuff, but there were
I understood. I mean it was I get where some
(22:03):
of the people are scared. I mean that's what that's
just just break it downstair, just break it down to
brass tacks. People are scared.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
And uninformed and under educated because the information wasn't there.
So yeah, it's in some ways, I'm so proud of
queer people though. Yes, we're such a resilient bunch and
to do it with such flair and personality and you know,
just talk about a group of survivors and people who
(22:32):
thrive under all circumstances and right now feels really scary.
But I have a lot of faith in our community.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yes, I mean I'm When COVID tired, we're like, oh,
we've been this before, Okay, Like, oh yeah, we know
something like a pandemic's happening as a virus going through
You're like, oh, we know that. That looks familiar. I
had to chuck late that at first. It's kind of
like like in light of COVID just said we had
a chuck late that kind of going, yeah, we've been
through something like this before, but now it's mainstream, let's
get the air quotes. Where So now I should I'll
(23:01):
be worried, But we were worried back when it wasn't mainstream. Yeah,
who's that? When you think of Michael now, where is
he in your life?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Mm hmm. That's such a good question. I mean, in
some ways, he's still very present in my life because
I think about him often because he touched me so deeply.
And also I spent years writing this book and living
with memories of Michael, and you know, ways of telling
the story of Michael's life and his impact on my
(23:36):
own life. Where is he now? It's it's he's still
very sweet and very dear to me. Also, one thing
that I didn't expect is the book coming out and
that his relatives, his brothers, his nephews are reaching out
to me, and oh, I know, and that's great.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I know.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
It's it's so touching in there. They're sending me sweet
messages and his brother even is mailing me a large
image of Michael. That was because Michael was a performer,
so it's a photo of Michael on stage, and I
remember this photo of Michael's bedroom, So it's I'm so
touched and I'm glad that I was able to, you know,
(24:21):
create a portrait of someone that they love as well.
And you know, so that this book is you know,
hopefully meaningful to people outside of who knew Michael. It's
so meaningful that it it has their stamp of approval.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
So you can't, you can't. You're better than that at all.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Also, you know, I love that I get to introduce
Michael to somebody.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
That's my next thing. That's my next thing. That's my
next question is like what what what? So this is
this is, you know, pieces of Michael in a book,
But so what was the message you were trying to
get out to people about him?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I think, really, this is someone who was important. This
is someone who was loved and who deeply loved me
and had an impact on my life. And I also
think there are a lot of dynamics that people can
relate to. Yes, yeah, people in their own lives. You know,
it's sometimes a touchy subject to write about the people
(25:21):
in our lives, yes, and create artwork around them. And
if they're around, we can ask their permission, but I
didn't have that with Michael. What I did find and
it was actually during the pandemic, when you know, we
had nothing to do but organize our everything. At our home,
I was going through and I keep a lot of
(25:42):
the letters that people have sent me, and so I
decided to start organizing them alphabetic and I encountered a
note Michael wrote me. When I was taking care of him,
his sleep schedule was erratic. He was up late at
night and I woke up in the morning to find
a note. He had seen some poets on television and
suggested I check out their work. And on the other
(26:03):
side of the piece of paper, he wrote, I have
two subjects for you to write about me of course
and me.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yes, it's in the book, folks. That's the first that's
the first page is and that is that his.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Handwriting is Michael's handwriting.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Oh my god, I'm fun Okay, I like that. Yes,
so I recognize that, he said. I was like, I
think that's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, and and so for me, it was this lovely
permission to just keep going.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
It's that's actual notes. Yeah, I love it. I don't
love that it tells you about his person tells you
about his personality right there, just reading that as long
as like, it's enough about me, it's about you. What
do you think about me? You know a famous thing
from Beaches. I guess it's just hilarious that that's him,
get you subject about me?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, and he even so that poem I read about
my grandmother and the recording for the audio book. I thought,
you know, in a in this book, people encounter Michael's
image on the cover. Yes, it was on the inside
of the book. And I thought it would be really
nice for people to hear Michael's voice.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Wait, so there's audio. Is the audio out? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
The audiobook.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I got to listen. I want to listen to that now.
Now I want to listen to that. So you included
that in there? I was great.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
So, yeah, excerpts from that recording are in the audio book.
And I love that people can hear Michael and how
quick he was and just the turns of phrases. It's
it's so nice that and people are like, oh, how
how would Michael have felt? It was like Michael loved
an audience. Oh, I'm sure I just loved this Like
that that we're here talking about it like this. Oh
(27:36):
he would have been happy.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Why it's my brother published my journals. I don't care.
I like being a star. We read everything. I don't care.
He always laughs. But that's the thing. So a guy's listening.
I want to listen to audiobooks. I want to hear that.
But when you were choosing actual material, you say, we're
trying for years. How is it morphed into this? Like
(27:58):
I said, it's like little story because you are poets,
but you're also a writer. You've written books, but but
the style is kind of poetry, but it's like stories.
So how did you come to that?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Well? I, you know, poetry is the language of our emotions, right,
and so it was important for me to convey something
emotionally in it, which is more important than biographical details.
But I did want those details to be accurate. I
should Jinny to do that again.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah again?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
What was your question?
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Oh? My god? So all I can't remember anymore, I know.
And then the creation detailsila.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I know, it's what was I saying. I forgot where
I was going, though, it was more what it was,
which you can't answer.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Well, to start over, to start over, okay, do this
other question. So in the creation of this book, when
you first started, you're writing for years. You know, poetry
is your style, but it's actually short stories, like those
short stories, So how'd you come to that style? And
you were so then you were talking once before about
how poetry is our language, you know stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I want my work to be accessible. I do not
appreciate poems that are riddles or you know, a reader
feels like they need to solve it. What I want
is the reader to have this emotional experience and to
feel something and to be moved and motivated. And you know,
hearing you say that, it's the biggest compliment. That's what
I'm aiming to do with my work.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Well it is, I mean literally is. But I noticed
that there's a through line and maybe because we are
being to our golden year, so we still look good though,
I'm going with that look good. Yeah, he looks good.
But the last called books quot for David and this
totally taking back in time to a time period that
(29:50):
I don't want us to forget about because the younger
generations just have no connection to it. And I was
some love like, get why they don't, But it's d
of like, it's still part of our history and their's too.
So how are you dealing with all this emotional stuff
You've done? These last a couple of books have been
kind of emotional.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, thank you. And the book in between, the chat
book in between is For the Love of Peter who
jar which is about the photographer Peter whojar ittavates and
it is it's interesting to me as well that it's
you know, this subject has you know, taken up so
much of my life, and I'm also okay with it.
(30:31):
There's something I trust the page, and in writing is
where I work things out. I don't you know. One
of the things about writing this book is is trying
to figure it out or trying to make sense of
something difficult. And that's what my writing has always offered me.
And it's why I'm so invested and I want to
(30:53):
get the experience, you know, I'm looking for insight. I'm
looking for, you know, to describe something in detail where
I accurately pinpoint what it is, what the experience was.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Like for me.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
So in that way, I am such a hard worker
and so focused and so it's just really what's held
my fascination and also what's what I'm trying to make
sense of.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
That makes sense of Okay, like that I can understand
that my last I'm a recording artist. I have a
couple of albums out right now and they're very eighties.
I know, for me, I'm working out those are those
were some really memorable, wonderful times for me because I
(31:40):
was young and I didn't know a lot of stuff
and everything hadn't happened yet. And right now I'm going
through a lot of you know, I have an aging parent,
I have you know, I have a lot going on.
I'm running a business and I got stuff going on,
and like those are simpler times, and so I know
it's coming out in my creative space. So I'm warning
for yous that's i'ming similar to that kind of you're
(32:01):
going back in time, so to speak, but you know,
because today things are kind of weird. But I don't
know these days.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think maybe in some way it was
you know, those experiences like what was that? Yeah, you know,
like and I think just being in survival mode, it's
hard to process all of it at the time because
we're just so just trying to get by. Yes, and
you know, in a lot of ways. I think that's
you know, what was going on.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
You know. Yeah, someone asked me, how did you get
the time O? Because I said, you just did first,
I just do it. It was still it was life.
It was part of our lives. I may not be
the part of your life now, but it was part
of our lives. You still were striving to have a life.
I still wanted to fall in love, I still had
to work at jobs, and still I still wanted friends.
I still want to go party. I mean, there are
(32:49):
things I still wanted to do in the middle of
this through line that was happening. You could just stop living.
I'm sure people did well. You just couldn't stop just
living and be afraid the whole time, right.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
And it's living with that complexity, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, because you can't just stop because then life there's
something always going on. So you can't just stop all.
I can't live it always has done. You can't do that,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I have a poem in the book that after Michael died,
I started working for an HIV organization and I was
doing testing and counseling, and I was in that field
for years, and so many friends were concerned about me
because it was consuming so much of my life at
my time. But you know, I would tell them it.
You know, it was kind of like hurricanes in Florida
(33:34):
that the safest place was in the calmest place was
in the center of the storm. And for me, I
think that's, you know, one way I've lived my life,
but that's how I was living my life.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Then.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I just felt like to just jump in the very
middle of it and be there. That felt really calm.
At least it felt like I was doing something. I
was putting positive effort towards the good.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Was anything you were going over stuff and as you
were a rhinous for several years. Is there anything you
just kept for yourself about you and Michael that you
did not put in the book.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
That is a great question, because.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Being transparents great and all. But sometimes you're thinking, they're
just things that I keep for myself. I don't want
to share, you know, Or you're like, I want to
share everything. I'm gonna share it all. There you go.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know, there are things that you know, if I
were a true researcher, I would have listened to that
audio recording again and written poems about some of the
things we talked about or maybe tried to write poems
about it, but instead I listened to the audio recording
only only right before recording the audiobook. That poem where
(34:47):
I said I only listened to it once was true,
And listening to it again, I was reminded of so
many things between the two of us. And here in
this one conversation where Michael is telling me about a
doctor's diagnosis and talking about some frustrations he had with friends.
Then the conversation goes on to be where we start
(35:10):
talking about mid century furniture. You know, we start talking
about it some one of those things like when you
talk about like holding complexity, and I mean there's something
about that that's so.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
So gay, yes, and so ordinary and so ordinary.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yes, Like yeah, yeah. We were talking like because he
came to visit. Mean, he really loved how I decorated
my heart, so we talked about it, like so just
that thing like he's dying. But we're also talking about
furniture like that. You know, there are things like that
that just didn't make it into the book because I
didn't recall. And you know, I do want to encourage people,
(35:44):
like you know, you keep a journal, to keep journals
or hold on to photographs and do as much as
you can to back them up. And you know, I
like holding on to letters. What's interesting is I did
not look through my journals before, you know, for anything.
For this book. I felt like what I remember wasn't off.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Okay, that's a choice, has a choice. I want to
read another poem, sure, sometimes this's my other poem I
like of his. Oh this is why I like this one.
This gives me his personality. Also, I wish to be
on the cover of magazine, and the editor emailed questions,
(36:25):
but Michael called. I read him my replies. He was quiet,
and then he told me to answer more thoughtfully, respond
as if your soulmate will read it. I scrapped every
word I wrote, as if my answers were a beacon
and that magazine the lighthouse. I called Michael the next day,
(36:49):
read him my new answers, and I could feel his
smile through the phone. There you go. I still take
his advice. Think of that unknown, unnamed man I'm to
love forever and who had loved me forever. Sometimes I
think of Michael as my perfect audience, ear pressed to
the receiver, waiting to hear every word, believing greatness was
(37:13):
in me and if my words met his expectations for me,
you'll reply there you go. I actually cried. I read
that one. Well, my favorites because it's it's it's the
it's here and now I said earlier, it's past and present.
He was giving you advice. You were answering probably cutes
and whatever, and you know, you think it's a magazine,
(37:35):
I'm gonna aswer and he's like saying no. But the
fact that he said as if your soul made is
going to read it, he's saying, go deep.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah, I know. And that's that was, uh favor similar
to the advice you know that. I mean, someone's just
looking out for me.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
And I think my answers were so like and my
initial answers were so like shallow and superficial.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, uh.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah. And I think how fortunate was I to have
this man as a friend.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
He was honest with you, just like clan your friends,
like on cl on girl, that's not gonna cut it.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yes, yeah, And actually that that was one of the
gifts about Michael. He you know, it could be quite
self involved, but yet when he gave to you, it
was like an unrefracted beam of light that it was
like there was nothing for anyone. I mean, it was
he gave so purely that it was unlike anything I
(38:35):
had ever experienced. And that's one of those examples of
when he did that, And you know, it was one
of the first times I was in print, and it
was just such great advice, you know, and I'm glad
that I have that record of of him and his point.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Well, the thing is, it's you know, some of the
bigger personalities I can we called that many times. We
do have a we do have an ocean of deepness
in us. We may not show it all the time,
we may not give it to you every day, but
when you need it, we provide. So I'm thinking that's
(39:12):
a think back some my friends who had drag queens
backing any longer with us back in the day, and
they were just so theatrical and so I mean, oh
I got one liners or five minutes, but when the
chips were down or someone was needed, they came through
with the best advice, you know what I mean. It's
like anybody people are three dimensional human beings. Your book
tells us that basically we're all just one thing. It's
(39:34):
like we're all several things.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Thank you, yeah, and even myself too, like it wasn't
uh you know, I even say some uncomfortable things about
myself in the book and who I was at that time,
and sometimes I felt a little resentful about some of
the things that Michael did. And it's you know, because
that's that's part of it too. I think one of
the greatest things we can do and feel is to
(39:59):
feel loved holly by someone that when someone recognizes and
you know, like the fullness of who we are, and
I think that is incredibly loving. Is that you know,
those friends and lovers and family members who totally understand
your faults and yet they're still there offering support and
(40:21):
love and encouragement.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I think the thing we have to realize too is
just you know, that's just age getting older. Hopefully not
everybody does, but hopefully you're getting more comfortable on your skin,
because looking inwards one of the hardest things you can do,
and it's not easy. People think you can look in
word it's oh, I just like talking, but to admit
things about yourself it's really hard. But I think when
(40:43):
you get older, you start to just learning, you know, yeah,
I'm this way. Yeah, I'm that way. Yeah, I do this.
It gets a little easier. And I think that's why
why you could write stuff about yourself in this book.
They mean it'd be a little unflattering to admit, you know. Yeah,
I was a little petty at this time. I was
a snot. I was like, who is that? I have
(41:04):
a few ti asking those I actually got to make
amends with somebody recently that I had kind of did
wrong thirty years ago. It was kind of crazy and
present itself, and I was like, you know what, I'm
gonna admit that I did wrong, and you and I
both know I did wrong, and it's all fine with
right now.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Oh that's and it's never too late to apologize for
something or take responsibility. Yeah, and I also think it's
okay to apologize more than once.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yeah, you know what, you know what?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
You only know what you know what? You know what
you know, right, I mean, I'm twenty five years old.
I think I know everything probably at the time, But
you don't you think so at thirty you think so
at thirty five. You are who you are up to
that point, right, And you could be book smart and
have and I got degrees to you, I got letters
out to my name. But in life you can still
(41:50):
be naive or petty, or sad or not as supportive.
You can make mistakes. It's just that's just how humans
are built, and you can always learn from it if
you do it right. That's how I get it. Adds. So,
as you're outliving Michael, what is your message to others
(42:14):
who've outlived their Michaels Mmm.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
I I wonder if I do have a message directly
as much as I am in hopes that by my
sharing my experiences it normalizes theirs and that this is
something you know, Like you said, it's a book about friendship,
and I you know that's so important for us to
(42:39):
talk about the values of our you know, the value
of friendship also about losing a friend, and it's it's
a very different kind of loss.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
It's one thing to be married to someone and lose
us husband or a wife. It's another thing to lose
a friend. And how impactful that is.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
We'll always say friendships in many cases are the strongest
of relations other than meet outside a parent, child, outside
of lovers, outside of spouses, outside of siblings, because you
choose each other. Yes, that's what's so interesting, right. And
I've had friend breakups that were I mean like I'm
(43:24):
on the floor sobbing, hurt for years later. And I've
had a breakup with but I was like I'm done
after a while. Like friendships, I think are undervalued in
terms out they're importance.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yes, yeah. And also, you know we're in a you
know this like how many friends or how many followers
you have? That's different than a friend, like a true friend?
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, who can you call it two in the morning seriously,
and to say, oh my god, I can't sleep, or
I'm in a dark spot.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Can you just talk to me you or that, Hey,
I'm feeling really lonely right now. Oh I need some company,
or oh I need your help as I try to
work through this. Those are true friends. I also there
was something I heard recently that being a good friend
also means inconveniencing yourself. And the people who complain they
don't have friends, those are the people who don't inconvenience themselves.
(44:18):
And I think that's true.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
I think that's that notes the book is outliving Michael
and Steven, can you tell people where you can find you?
And all your work. Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
People can find out about me at Stephenraains dot com
Stephen wi A V Rain's r E I G N S.
And the book is sold. You can pick it up
anywhere at your local bookstore or order it. The audiobook
is exclusively on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
That's something we go. I gotta listen to it. I
always like end my dis show with the importance of books,
the importance of indie authors, the importance of we don't
ban books. We don't like that here in our channel,
and that books aren't going anywhere, whether it's audible, whether
(45:05):
it's kindle, whether it's physical copies. People are reading more
than ever and I just and I believe there's so many,
so many things you can get from reading books. So
I will always support that. I want books and schools.
I want books outside of schools. Libraries you stay open.
I'm a big perport of a library. I got a
library card. It was all time. They also have online
(45:27):
use a libry card online that they called libby Gal.
There all kind of stuff. Just that it's reading. It's
not about being just like I'm a smart person guy read.
It's just because you can take you places you've never
been before. They expose you to things you've never seen
or heard. That's always a wonderful and wonderful thing. I said.
We do hear in between the pages of James Junior.
We're on Facebook I where all James Lou Juniors are
(45:49):
sold at James Loungr. I'm expensive on also just to
be a platforms I am by, including TikTok and Jljvidia's
and we're also thank you for joining me, my friend.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Thank you so much for having me again, and thank
you to.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
You podcasters studios here in Hollywood. I'll use information on
that too on the description. So if you want to
come down here and do some filming, do it. Tell
him Jane sent you. To see you next time.
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