Are you an Introvert? Are you a Highly Sensitive Person? Are you a Highly Sensitive Introvert? Alane Freund returns to the conversation.

Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
Hello, everyone, Welcome to Juliein conversation. So glad to be here
with you today. Whenever you're tuningin is tuning in? May it be
the perfect and right time. Mayyou receive what it is you need to
receive and what it is you didn'teven know that you needed that unseen realm

(00:32):
right what's below the surface, whatyou may be feeling but don't have time
to acknowledge. Maybe it'll be inthis hour that you're listening and what are
you acknowledging that you're wanting to recognize, to witness, to be seen,
to welcome in. May you feelwelcomed in this hour that I'm with you

(00:56):
here today. Today is November twentytwenty twenty three. As always, it's
a great privilege to be able tocarve out this time to be here with
you, with myself, with theconversation that I'm going to be sharing today
that I had a few days agowith the great a lean friend, a

(01:18):
cherished guest and friend of the podcast, international consultant on high sensitivity, e
coin therapist and women of many traits, talents and skills. And so today
we're going to be featuring conversation aboutintroversion and sensitivity, the links, the

(01:40):
distinct differences, the traits of thetrait of sensitivity, and unpacking what it
means to be both or to beone or the other? Which do you
identify with? Are you highly sensitive? Are you an introvert? Are you

(02:02):
an extrovert? Do you call yourselfone or the other or all three?
You're going to hear a lot aboutthis topic in moments from now, so
I'll be sharing that with you,as well as some offerings that Elaine has.
She has a retreat coming up.If you're listening to this in twenty

(02:23):
twenty three and it's before December thirteenth, then you have a chance to participate
in her online retreat, Discovering Joy, and I'll be giving away well,
Elaine will be giving away one freetickets, So reach out to me and
I'll be putting your name in adraw to be a part of the online

(02:44):
retreat, no matter where you arein this world. And I'll also be
sharing in this podcast a program thatI have coming up. Moved the dates
to February twenty twenty four with NicoleShiner Caring without Carrying It All and would
love to welcome you. We havesome spots filling up. We have room

(03:05):
for you, so please check thatout on my website, Julie in Conversation
dot com and also Caring without CarryingIt All dot com, a place for
you to feel welcome, to feelseen, to normalize your experience, and
gain practical tools insights into your sensitivityas a change maker, a caregiver,

(03:34):
a creative person, a helping professionalin this world. So thank you for
being here today. I want toacknowledge where I'm located situated. I am
currently sitting on a chair in myoffice recognizing the land that I am broadcasting
from unseated Indigenous lands of the gottnejokeHaga Nation here in Montreal, gottnejokee Haga

(03:59):
on what is so called Canada knownas Turtle Island. And so where are
you located right now? What landare you situated on? What air are
you breathing in? How you takethis time to acknowledge where you are all
that has enabled you to be inthis moment and as I am doing that

(04:20):
as well, very grateful to behere with you right now. Focused inward
on this topic of introversion. Oneway of looking at it is the tendency
and proclivity and natural inclination to focuson the internal focus inward. And so
it's a privilege to be able todo that with you here today because there

(04:42):
is so much swirling on around inthe ethers, in the world and the
physical realm of this earth, ofthis planet, in different nations, and
so whatever it is that's swirling aroundyou and perhaps in you just knowledging what
it is that you're navigating, offeringsupport, offering compassion for you for the

(05:10):
time that you're taking to tune intoyourself, so that when you do go
outside into the world that you areserving, whether it's your family, your
work, your community, your nation, that you show up more fully,
more energized, more resourced. Somay this time give you that space permission
to tune in, to give toyourself, to feed what needs feeding.

(05:39):
And it's always this privilege, becausethis is what this podcast provides for me,
this space to tune it all outand to connect here. Some weeks
it takes much more strength, muchmore conviction to show up. My kids
are home from school because they're strikehere in Montreal, Quebec I support the

(06:02):
teachers and getting better accommodations, highersalary. And what that means too is
that my kids are out of school. It's now going on a week,
could potentially be another few weeks.So there's you know, the COVID flashbacks
are rising and there's a lot ofthat on top of other things of course
in this world. So just navigatingwhat is it that you're navigating, What

(06:25):
is it that you're needing to justput down for this time that we're here
together, whether you're multitasking or simplylaying down or walking, Just offering you
the space, the possibility to justput it down. That is what my
program with Nicole Shiner will offer you, a space for whatever you're carrying,
to put it all down, tojoin us in community, to be recognized

(06:49):
for who you are, and tofeel supported. February twenty twenty four,
I will be giving out along withNico Intuitive Readings, a fifteen minute intuitive
reading and Nicole is going to beoffering a Reiki session. So we're giving

(07:10):
up for the first six people thatsign up. You can choose whichever is
still available to receive either an intuitivereading from myself, which I love doing.
It's beautiful transformative energy to be inso you can win or gain that
when you are one of the firstto join us in this twenty twenty four

(07:32):
cohort. So reach out to mejulianconversation dot com or Nicole, and I'll
look forward to welcoming you. So, without further ado, I want to
bring your attention to this conversation thatI will be sharing a few seconds.
I say a lot already, soI don't want to be redundant in what
I'm going to be sharing. ButElaine friend has been a great inspiration,

(07:56):
support and collaborator in my life sincebeing introduced to her quite a few years
ago. Maybe not quite a fewyears ago, but for sure before the
pandemic. I don't know what thatmeans where we are, but very grateful
for her presence in my life.So may you enjoy, May you listen
for the offering that she shares,and what this conversation will bring to you
in terms of how introversion and howit's seen and how it's valued or not

(08:20):
valued enough in your life may perhapschange and whatever else you may gain,
be sure to share that with me. So thank you for tuning in,
for being who you are. Letme know where you're tuning in from.
Be sure to subscribe to my newsletter. Check out my Patreon page where you
can support the podcast all on julianconversationdot com and let me know what you're

(08:43):
gaining. I love hearing from you. So good to be with you here
today. Grateful and thank you forbeing you. May you enjoy this conversation.
Welcome back, Elaine friend, mydear friend and colleague, collaborator,

(09:05):
co creator. So good to seeyou. Welcome to this conversation. Back
to the podcast. This is thevideo version, which will be also featured
on the audio option when you're listening. So I'm assumed that everybody knows who
you are, because they should.But as much as I love you and

(09:26):
know you, maybe you want totell people who you are what you do.
However, right me, before wepushed record, Julia, I was
saying how much I adore working withyou. We have great chemistry and I
really respect and value all your giftsthat you bring to the world. So
I thank you and thank you forfinding me way back when pre pandemic for

(09:48):
sure. So it's been years ago. Yeah, I am a licensed marriage
and family therapist and I've been afamily therapist for more than three decades,
so little fews in my toolbox,just a few. I do see therapy
clients, but mostly I practice Ecoineassisted therapy outdoors in California. I do

(10:11):
consultations online with people from all overthe world. And you know, I
draw that line because my therapy licenseis only good in the state of California.
So I live northwest of San Francisco, close to Point Raised National Seashore
and lots and lots of beautiful giantDouglas fir and redwood trees. I'm a
horsewoman and I have a new cultwho is only sixteen months old that i'm

(10:35):
raising. His name is Shava.Maybe we'll link his little birthday trip to
the beach. We went to thebeach just a week ago as we're recording
this, and I sent Julie alittle video of him rolling in the sand
and finding his bliss, which Ithink is so important for all of us.
Yeah, more than twelve years ago. I don't remember when Elaine Aaron

(10:56):
told me I was highly sensitive andwe offended me at the moment we were
at the ranch because she's also ahorsewoman, and I had no idea that
she was the person who coined theterm and has sold well over two million
copies of books about the topic,and spearheads all the research across the world
on it. So I was shesaid, you should read the book without

(11:16):
telling me that she wrote it.The reason she told me was because I
had been helping her with an emotionalissue with her horse, and just because
I grew up on a ranch witha horse training mom, so everybody always
asked my help. And afterwards,I said to her, now that you've

(11:37):
cried, your insides in your outsidesmatch, so your horse will not be
afraid of you. Her horse hadbeen moving away whenever she wanted to get
on, and she was worried thatthe horse didn't like her anymore. And
really what she was having, shewas having those feelings and those anxieties.
It made the horse feel more afraidof her because she was acting like she

(11:58):
was fine, I'm just going toget on and ride you, even though
she was having that inside And that'sone thing that horses teach us so well,
that our insides and outsides need tocome together and match. So she
said, as soon as I acknowledgedthat her crying was going to solve all
her problems, that's when she knewthat I was highly sensitive, and she
knew I was an equine assistant psychotherapistand team builder, and she said,

(12:22):
I think your equin assistant work wouldbe amazing for HSPs. And that began
our journey of creating curriculum together,riding together. I started traveling with her
and helping out at her big retreats, and then slowly but surely, as
she's twenty years older than me andneither one of us are young, she's
been trying to step back, andso I started leading the retreats and teaching

(12:46):
them. And it's changed my lifebecause now I'm an international consultant on high
sensitivity and I have this mission toreach all the sensitive people in the world,
especially the youth. Mm hmm.So that's I guess. I'm also
I'm a mom, I'm highly sensitive, I'm a wife, and I'm a

(13:09):
business person reluctantly sometimes and I'm aprofoundly introverted person. Mm hmmm. I
was going to add some and whoelse you are and what else you do
in this world? So many things. Also reminded by the fact that,

(13:31):
and of course I've told you thisa million times, and I've probably said
it a few million times on thepodcast. We met because of this HSP
trait, Elaine, I reached outto Elien Eron and I asked her to
come on the podcast. We said, well, I'm not available, but
I am just the right person andit was you. So thanks Elaine Aeron,
Thank you, Elaine Friend. ThanksMatchmaker. So yes, so many

(14:01):
things to talk about. I thinkwe've landed on this topic of the relationship
between sensitivity and introversion. Yeah,it's come up. It's been coming up
for me with my work with clients, specifically like executive clients as a coach,

(14:26):
and so yeah, I'm just curiousto delve into it. I have,
by no means exhausted my research onintroversion, but of course, you
know, it seems to me morepalatable to use the word introvert versus highly
sensitive with certain individuals, and soI'm just curious to unpack it with you

(14:46):
and see where you stand on it. I have a little small collection of
research here to share, but mostlyit's experiential research that I can share and
inquire about. How do you feelabout me asking you do you identify as
an introvert? Yes? Actually Istarted taking I'll get to it, but

(15:09):
there was a scale. You knowElaine obviously you know Elaine Herron has the
HSP test, the Highly Sensitive PersonTest. So there's one for introversion that
was created by Scott Barry Kaufman.I'd mentioned to you before the podcast that
I've listened to some of his podcastscalled the Psychology Podcast, and it's also

(15:31):
you could find it on YouTube,and so he had we just pull it
up here, a podcast on introversion. It's called Understand Understanding the Science of
Let me just pull it up here. Thank you for your patience, The
Science of Introversion and Extroversion. It'swith doctor Luke Smiley, and he refers

(15:54):
to the work that he did withSusan Kine, the author of Quiet,
and how they had come up withthis scale. So I'm not sure the
criteria or the evidence behind it,but I started taking it is what I'm
trying to get to. But actuallyit was I didn't have time to complete
it. But for sure, I'man introversion self identified. Whatever the test

(16:18):
reveals are not yes, I meanand young first really popularized this concept of
introversion and extraversion, Carl Jung andyou know, so what probably more than
one hundred years ago, and healso talked about this exquisite sensitivity that some
people have, and was really calledthat exquisite sensitivity. I'm not sure if

(16:42):
he said exquisite. I think thatmight be my term, but I love
that term that You also did talkabout people who were who and Elaine has
some quotes about it on her websiteabout people who were so sensitive that they
just perceived the world differently. Andeven you distinguish the difference between introversion extraversion

(17:04):
as one of the personality types,and sensitivity as a different one, so
that they I just want to makethe point they're completely independent. But I
don't know why this is the case. I look forward to more research on
this, but it turns out thatmaybe about seventy percent of highly sensitive people

(17:25):
are introverted. There's some complicated stuffin the research now about environmental sensitivity,
which is which is a sibling ofand similar to, but not exactly the
same as high sensitivity, though differentpeople say different things about it. But
if you just look at sensitivity toenvironment, the numbers are even higher.

(17:47):
They're closer to thirty percent of people. But then within that thirty percent there's
a gradation of more or less sensitiveso I'm just curious that that will change
change the outlook on the seventy thirtysplit of highly sensitive people. But when
you was talking about sensitivity, Imean about introversion. He was talking about

(18:11):
there are many different ways to beintroverted, right, and it's not all
you know, because highly sensitive people, although we're introverted, we crave deep
connection. We have such strong empathythat we want to have really strong connections
with people, and sometimes that cancreate a little bit of a not conflict,

(18:32):
what would be the word for that, but just a little challenge in
life. Tension maybe tension. Ilove that. That's exactly right, because
I was thinking about chigong, youknow, holding that energy, you know
when you bring up your chie andyou know, you get it big,
and then you hold it in yourhands and you feel it in there and
it kind of pushes, it pulls, it push. Yeah. Yeah,
Well it's kind of like that.And I think, like to me,

(18:53):
being a sensitive introvert, it wouldbe a heck of a lot easier if
I just was full on. Iwould just be happy in the basement on
the computer doing tech work or something, you know, Like right, it's
just a solid introvert without the highsensitivity, then I could take care of
my introvertself so much more easily,right, And so I just want an

(19:15):
honor since we're talking about introverts,that there are as many different ways to
be introverted as there are introverts inthe world. And it doesn't all look
the same. Not everybody looks likeme or looks like you. Who's who's
introverted? And I almost said who'ssuffering with introversion? But that's not the
case. The only reason for anysuffering about introversion is because our Western societies,

(19:38):
when you and I live, valueextroversion and you know, being the
big personality in the room and thealpha dog in the in the business or
whatever. And sometimes it's harder forintroverts to be that person because we might
be more likely we still lead,but we might lead from a quieter place,
and it's just it doesn't get thekind of fireworks the extroverted leadership yet,

(20:03):
so sometimes we'd have to advocate forourselves, you know. Well,
that's how Yeah, no, thanksfor sharing that, I mean, that's
how what what's showing up with someof my executive clients who are in either
you know senior management, who leadyou know, who lead people? And

(20:26):
some feedback is I need you tospeak up more, you know, I
need to feel your influence more.I need you to socialize more. I
need to hear you more. Ineed to you know, I need you
to be doing some more relationship building. What do you advise those people,
like, what would Elaine say,let's call her up. Well, we

(20:48):
don't advise as coaches, so Ijust get curious about what that means for
them. And also I think thereneeds to be some disruption around what is
valued and how it's valued. Soyou know we talk about that, Yeah,
I mean we always say if aperson who is highly sensitive can get

(21:11):
in a position of power, thenthey can change the culture. And I
think the same is true for introverts, because you know that bombastic Western conquering,
colonizing, killing culture. Not tobe dark, but as we're recording
this, it's almost us Thanksgiving,and you know, it's such a complicated

(21:34):
time holiday for me. Actually,I want to bring up I got to
start posting my blog where I puta picture of the sculpture called the Trail
of Tears on this blog about Thanksgivingand about how I have such conflicted feelings
being from Oklahoma where the end ofthe Trail of Tears, where all the

(21:59):
Native Americans from the Southwest United Stateswere forced to walk from Florida and all
those states around there to Oklahoma.And then we're basically imprisoned in Oklahoma,
which was some insanely small percentage ofthe amount of land where they had lived,
and over half of them died alongthe way. And so anyway,

(22:21):
this is the society that you andI are a part of, right,
it is what we are. Andwe have our own moments of challenge and
persecution in our own histories. Iacknowledge that. And we're living in a
culture that would do that to anentire, massive group of civilizations. Right,

(22:41):
So how can that culture honor andrespect and value leadership from an introvert.
It takes activism. You know,You've heard me say many times that
I'm thirty five years into alan On, which is a twelve step program for

(23:03):
families of alcoholics. But really Iwas just talking to my sponsor this morning
and she was reminding me that alanOn is good for anybody like you could
be living with mental health issues inyour family or trauma in your family.
It doesn't have to be alcoholism oraddiction, but it's just such a great
tool for living. And one ofthe principles in alan On is that we

(23:26):
use attraction rather than promotion. AndI actually I just thought of that that.
I think that we live our livesin such a way that it's attractive
to others, and that's what createschange in the family system. I think
that's a really important piece for introverts. If we are able to stand in

(23:49):
our power, disrupt, as yousay, and live and act from a
pure heart, it will be attractiveto others, you know, an introversion
and extraversion. I think it's prettyevenly spread across society, and so it's

(24:10):
not like we're a minority per se. It's just we live in a culture
that doesn't value us as much,so we have to demonstrate the value.
It's like an uphill. It's aclimb, right, it can really be
a climb. I mean, Ithink the better you feel about yourself,

(24:33):
better one feels about oneself. Theless of a of a you know,
a nitty gritty climate is the moreit's just more like subterfuge, right,
And I notice it too, dependingon who the client is that I'm speaking
with what other climes they're facing whatever, you know, history, they have,
how they present you know, gender, race, religion, you know,

(24:56):
there's all these other competing forces thatperhaps may be presented as well as
the client, you know, inthe face of this systems that they're in
and that you are speaking about.So I feel as a coach, you
know, advocating advocating for that aswell, like I will hold the position
of what are your strengths and howcan they be used to assert who you

(25:26):
are in a way that feels inalignment with who you are. You know,
you are where you are for areason, like you you are in
this position for a reason. Andyou know, what are you going to
say? Well, I'm expecting thatprobably most introvert clients who find you are
also sensitive because that's you know,what you would attract and that's who you

(25:51):
are as well. And I thinkthat means that they want to connect with
people. So that that's that backto that scale that we have to balance.
And I was going to tell youthat not a client, but a
dear friend of mine is a profoundextrovert, a sensitive extrovert, and she
works in management right now, she'smanaging a retail chain store, a big

(26:14):
one, and it's a really greatjob. But she has gone into this
place and she's like the party person. She's literally her job. Her top
job title is experience manager. Wow. So you know, she interacts with
every customer and every employee and justreally is she uses her empathy as a
sensitive person and her big person extroverted, gregarious personality and makes she really does

(26:41):
make every day a great day foreveryone who walks into that store, regardless
of their customer or staff status,and they love her. She comes home
and she's wiped right. She can'teven have a phone conversation at the end
of the day because she's a standingherself so much, and that's what she's
going to do. The advantage foran introvert is in that kind of a

(27:04):
position is that we're more inclined totake care of ourselves. Now, there's
another employee at the store that isvery introverted and she kind of hides in
the back room, right, that'swhat works for her, and she's used
to being pushed to be out andextroverting. But because this new manager that's

(27:30):
come in that sensitive sees her.She says where do you want to be
Like, if you want to,it's a clothing store. If you want
to fold all day, you canwe meet that person you know excellent.
So I think it's about recognizing strengths, like you're saying. And one of

(27:51):
the strengths of a sensitive introvert,which like I said, are probably most
of your clients, is that theyhave a great one on one conversations.
Now, it takes more time tosocialize one on one with all of your
employees or all of your staff,or all of your friends, but you're
so drawn to do it as anintrovert that you make those really good connections

(28:17):
and then you have your little teamof allies around you. So I think
that's one of the things that wehave to do differently in our lives is
pursue the connections at a level thatworks for us. Yeah, and then
in terms of if you're operating ina system that expects and values extraversion,

(28:37):
navigating that right is something else tocontemplate. But also, like you said,
to be to learn how to bethe advocate of your own way forward,
which does necessitate calling on some supportor some books or some belief And

(29:00):
I am okay as I am,and actually, why might I be even
better suited for this role? Youknow, as I am well and like,
what what are the things we do? I've just been doing some research.
Once again, I call it doinga Gail. Gail's the name of
my therapist. I can turn hername into an acronym. But innercompassion,

(29:25):
compassion, god Gail. Anyway,She's right, that's what I lack.
That's what I need more of,and I think that's what we all need
more of. And I feel like, if you're an introversion, if you're
an introvert in a in this culture, that you have to do that intercompassion,
self compassion work in order to havethe inner strength to draw upon your

(29:49):
resources. And you know, Iwant to what's coming to mind? Is
this a concept of a survival skill. I'm forever writing about this, and
that's what we develop when we're childrenand we don't fit into the dominant culture
or the family. We develop survivalskills so we're not literally ostracized or left

(30:10):
out on the street corner. Iknow that sounds harsh, but that is
something that has happened in history andhappens to this day that children, very
young children, babies, and youngchildren learn to adapt their style of being
in the world so that they willbe protected, so that they will maintain
the connections of their community and theirfamily, so they're protected while they're young.

(30:33):
So, you know, say you'rean introvert and you learn to sort
of feel bad about it and tuckit in and extrovert to cover it up.
That's a great skill. Yeah.Now the trick is, do I
walk around always feeling like I'm canI swear on your podcast? Yeap?

(30:56):
Do I always walk around feeling likeI'm a piece of shit because I'm an
introvert, Because that's my survival skill, Like, don't extra extrovert, you
know, fake it, put onthe smile, be you know, Susie
Sunshine and getting a social yeah yeah, and go to the parties. So
what we have to do is tellthat little Laney inside of me that that

(31:21):
was really smart, that she learnedto do that so that she survived her
childhood and that no longer. Nowit's a choice if I choose to go
out and socialize in the world orI choose to extrovert in the world.
It's not because I have to tosurvive. And I'm really grateful and I
honor the work that my little girldid to survive childhood as an introvert,

(31:45):
and you know it, and Isay thank you so much for doing that.
And now I'm in charge. I'mthe grown up now, and I
will take care of our introversion.I'll take care of introvert eline or introvert
lane, both the little kid andme, and and I'll make conscious choices
about it. I don't have tobe ruled by my survival skill, which

(32:07):
is sort of subconscious. Right.I just had an image of little Leanie
and little Julie hanging out on thebeach somewhere. There's many avenues, just
choosing which one to walk down rightnow with you so defining introversion, defining

(32:28):
sensitivity, the interlap intersection, obviouslythey're not the same, you know.
Actually I think you know how likerage versus personality, Like do you want
to go into that a little bit. I was just thinking about Elaine Aaron's
book on Highly Sensitive person in Love, and she talks about like there's she

(32:52):
was the original non binary gender personone of them, Billiane. Yeah,
she's so concerned. You know,she's so old school, and you know,
traditional psychological research blah blah blah.She's always so binary in her presentation.
But in that book she talks aboutfour genders and she calls she says,

(33:15):
there's the not highly sensitive woman,the highly sensitive woman, the not
highly sensitive man, the highly sensitiveman. And then there's this inference that
I make from it that there's alsoif you add on that. Remembering a

(33:36):
TV show where that was on,I think HBO or something, and they
made a big wall and they wroteeveryone in their community and they started connecting
everyone who had had relationships. Youknow, it was just like this huge
Venn diagram type thing. This ishow I picture this. So then you've
got introverted female, introvert, extrovertedfemale, introverted male, extrovert mail,

(34:00):
introverted, non binary person extroverted nonbinary. And then you add sensitivity,
like they see how you get allthese different conglomerations. That's why we're so
individual. Okay, So the youyou add these and then wait, wait
what if we talked about the ninetemperaments, right, it's top temperaments,

(34:22):
right, And then you go MyersBriggs and you know Jack Listricl always teaching
about Myers Briggs and sensitive people,and one of the The Myers Briggs sort
of addresses this introversion extraversion piece too. So there's just it's so complex,
it's personal. It's what I callpersonality. So I would say, let's

(34:45):
just keep it the definition. Youmay have something written down there that's better
than this what I think of asintroversion and extraversion. Of course, there's
ambervert people who really identify specifically asone of the other. They walk equally
in both shoes. Of like there'sa third gender in indigenous Hawaiian culture,

(35:05):
which is it has a Hawaiian name, but it means both, okay,
so there's female male in both andit's it has its own name, and
it's like that ambrovert. So butI think of an introvert as someone who
lives their best life if they gomore in and less out that they are

(35:28):
nourished and you know, resourced byspending less time out in the world and
more time with themselves and working ontheir inner life. And we might sounds
like high sensitivity, right, Andthen an extrovert is someone who is nourished
and fed by the out. Thecomplicated pieces the research, just very traditional

(35:51):
research found that extroverts are more oftenoverwhelmed and exhausted than introverts without without the
component of sensitivity, independent of thecomponent of sensitivity, because they don't have
the inclination to go in and rest. Like my friend extroverting all day at
work. Sometimes I want to sayto her, like, you know,

(36:13):
you could go hold in the backroom. They'll survive without you. She
doesn't have any any raw to dothat, right, interesting, So anyway,
So it's what you're to me.That's how I define them. Introversion
conversion is what resources you, whatfeeds you, what makes you your best
person? Mm hmm. What doyou have in terms of definition for what

(36:35):
were you thinking about defining introvert?Do you have some stuff or yourself personally
too? Well? I also goto the introvert draws resources from pulling away
and being inward, and then extrovertgains resources, gains energy from people being

(37:00):
with people. Yeah, and sayit too. You know, I see
it in my sons. You know, you have one of each, one
of each and so, but bothhighly sensitive. So I mean, I'll
let them identify as how whoever theyare, as they do if we were

(37:22):
to have this conversation. But I'mjust giving them that that label right now.
And I'm just thinking as you're talkingabout the extroverts that I know and
having this unseen place of maybe Ineed to go excuse myself and lie down
for a minute or be on myown, like it's not within their personality

(37:45):
right right. I also find itinteresting how this is this comes under the
dimension of personality introversion, but highsensitivity is a trait. Yeah, And
I don't have a psychology background,though I have a lot of experience in
psychotherapy and you know, I havebeen learning about it, but I'm just

(38:06):
curious about that and the significance orlack thereof of that. Well, there
are the big five personality factors,and extra version is one of those.
I'm not going to go into thosebecause I'm not good at it, but
there's them here. We could putan article in there on it. Yeah,
I'll link it, okay. Andthen there are traits, and you

(38:27):
know, traits are genetic, right, like curly hair, and and there
are so many different ones and it'sand traits aren't quite the same as temperament
either. I always feel a littlehesitant to try to define all these different
things. Yeah, I get it, but let's define sensitivity since it's walking
with us in this conversation, andI like, lately i've been saying,

(38:52):
if you have the trait it's calledsensory processing sensitivity of a highly sensitive person,
your brain works differently. It's beenproven in functional MRIST where they have
people do tasks while they look attheir brains, and different parts of the
highly sensitive person's brain literally activate moreunder certain conditions. So what they've discovered

(39:12):
is that these are brains. Andyou might know if this, if your
highly sense of this will resonate withyou, you'll know right away this is
your brain. It thinks more thanthe other people around you. It processes
more deeply, it notices more,and it feels more. It has stronger
emotional reactions. So when when youknow those people they're different. Thank god

(39:37):
we're a minority. Can you imaginethe world would be stop if all we
were ever doing was thinking and oh, you know, I should try to
have a conversation with my my youngadult son. It could go on for
hours, weaving and winding. Andyou know I can go there with him
too, But you were making methink about him when you're talking about your

(39:58):
sons. And I have been aconvinced that my kid is a sensitive introvert,
and I just wanted to mention aboutthe kids that and everybody that when
hormones start to go kind of wild, like in adolescence, we tend to
look a lot more extroverted and alot less sensitive, and definitely we're drawn

(40:21):
to more. You know. Ithink some highly sensitive teen girls sink into
are more likely to sink into depressionif their environment is hard. But most
adolescents, sensitive or not seek moreadventure. They're supposed to be seeking sensation
and going out and taking risks.That's how they you know, fight wars

(40:44):
and build houses and you know,hunt all the things that we had to
do in earlier evolutionary times. That'swhy our adolescents are screwed up because they
don't have to do those challenges.Right. But so we can't say if
you're looking at an adolescent, andremember adolescence goes through the twenties now,
and you think the introvert are theextroverted. Well point being, my twenty
two year old, almost twenty threeyear old now is acknowledging that he actually

(41:08):
is more introverted. He loves tosocialize, he loves his friends, he
loves to go out and do things, but he has a girlfriend and it's
exhausting for him because he needs moretime alone than she does. Mm hmm.
Right, So that's a really goodsort of defining factor. Like I

(41:30):
always saying that marriage is hard forintroverts, can be marry an introvert.
Yeah, there you go, butthen never you'll never do anything that's our
issue. Well that's what I wasthinking too, just on a personal note.
So you know a lot of peoplesay, well, you're not an

(41:50):
introvert. You deal with people,you train, you facilitate, your coach,
you host events, right, yes, you know. And I was
thinking about it the other day,how I do love people. That's not
what I was thinking about. ButI do love people, and I do
love being with them. But Ialso really love my alone time. And
I'm pretty you know, I couldgo solo you know often, you know

(42:15):
and have done. I feel evenmore need for solo since you're in a
young family. Yes, you're surroundedby people all the time and working with
people. I mean, when Ithink about it, even growing as a
teen or young adult, I didtake some trips with some friends, but
I also went out on my owntraveling with my backpack, you know,

(42:37):
and those were some of the happiestmoments. So, I I was invited
to a party on this week thispast weekend, and that I was able
to go to, and like Ihaven't been. I don't go to parties,
you know, like either I'm notinvited, or I'm busy or I'm

(43:00):
tired or whatever it is, youknow. But I was going and to
feel the tremendous amount of reluctance inmy body was overwhelming because I knew,
I knew that it would do megood, you know. So I was
I was fighting against this introvert,highly sensitive trait personality that shows up often

(43:21):
as reluctance, you know, ascomfort, don't take the risk, don't
go out there, right, butI knew that it would be good for
me, and so and part wasgood for me, sorry, and part
of you wanted to go out andhave that, yeah, exactly, stimulation.
Yeah, I think there was aquestion about that my last masterclass on
navigating stress for the holidays, right, that's coming up. There's lots of

(43:44):
opportunities. Yeah, And I wassaying that there's this event in San Francisco
called Kung Pao kosher comedy. Andit's in a giant Chinese restaurant, you
know, like one of those bigbanquet style Chinese restaurants. All the tables
are large and round, and there'sthe the turntable in the middle, and
then it's a comedy show all throughdinner. And it's They have them on

(44:07):
the actual holidays too, so ifyou're feeling like kind of like, eh,
I'm not really up for Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, New Year's Eve,
New Year's Day, they have itall through them. And I love
to go to that thing. Imean, I haven't gone for several years
because the pandemic came up, butI love that. Now that blows my
wad coot kosher comedy. I'm afreaking zombie for a week afterwards. So

(44:34):
you know, I have a fortyfive minute commute, twenty minutes, you
know, eating strange food, beingin a room with one hundred people,
you know, getting home late.So I think when we're introverts and we
want to extrovert, and this bringsus to this idea of using extrovert and
introvert as a verb, which Ireally love. I learned that from E
Lane Aaron when I want to extrovert, like you're talking about, then I

(45:00):
prepare for it so like they don'tsocialize or do much of anything extra for
several days before I'm going to domy big event, and then I'm just
acknowledging that I'm going to need afew days of recovery afterwards, and it's
worth it to me. We allget to decide, you know, how
much extroverting. And then the otherpiece is, like you're talking about how

(45:22):
people think you're an extrovert. Peoplehave always thought I was an extrovert because
I got a good persona. That'sthe persona, and that's a really good
tool that we teach for managing socialanxiety, because introverts can slide down the
you know, we call it theslide into shy, But we can also
slide into social anxiety. These thingsare not the same. We don't have

(45:45):
to have social anxiety, we don'thave to be shy just because we're introverted,
right, But one of the bestways to prevent it is to develop
a persona that you put on whenyou are needing to extrovert or be out
in the world. So I've gotmy grocery shopping mom persona I've got my
you know, educator, consultant persona. I've got my therapist persona. And

(46:08):
you know, I'm like a beastwith the horses. I'm a small person
and you know, and I'm anerd and I have I always show people.
You know this is you can't reallytell, but my bones are tiny,
you know, like I don't havegood genes in terms of being a
laborer at the barn, but that'show I act, right, So I

(46:29):
have that, you know, thatstrong person that I all my personas are
part of me. But I haveto consciously make a choice. And maybe
this is back to your executives.I was just thinking about them. Yeah,
clients, you know that you haveyour persona that you put on and
you know exactly who that person is, what that persona is. Not only
that, another tool is you havea written down list that you've made up

(46:54):
with your coach of five or sixthings that that persona always has that they
will say answers to, you know, standard answers to questions. I mean
one of them, my favorite oneis I would love to give that some
careful thought. I'll get back toyou, m right, that's one of
them. So I write these thingsdown until I have them memorized. Now,

(47:16):
like I said, I'm getting upthere. I've been practicing this for
a long time, right, Butsome people haven't. They've just been struggling
and feeling bad about themselves with abouttheir survival skill. So how about that?
How about if you have almost ascript and you have to go to
the social event. Another one isexcuse me, I'm going to go to

(47:38):
the restroom. I'll be right back, or whatever polite way you call it
in you know, in social company. And so you have these ways that
you these plans that you're going todo. Another one, this is introvert
and social anxiety prevention one oh one. You have five questions in your two

(48:00):
box that you ask other people.Mm hmm. All you have to do
is get I'm talking. You know, when people write social interactions as you
know, rewarding or positive, it'salways when they talk the most. And
I bet you introverts are great listeners. Yeah, so that's the I guess.

(48:20):
Introverting and extroverting is verbs persona toprevent social anxiety. It's a cultivating
extraversion temporarily when needed. Yeah that'sgreat, thank you. So wait,
I looked up introversion. As youwere talking, I tried to do that
quietly. The introvert that I amknows how to do that, but you

(48:43):
know I'm on video. So inthis dictionary, which is I guess the
Oxford Dictionary, it says the qualityof being shy and reticent psychology right.
The psychology version definition is the tendencyto be concerned with one's own thoughts and
feelings rather than with external things elfishright. So I know that I'm curious

(49:08):
if you could talk about shy ifyou want to. But Scott Barry Kaufman
said that interversion is the most misunderstooddimension of human personality. And I'll put
up the link to his article onScientific Mind. Is that what it was?
Great Scientific American blog, Scientific American. What kind of introvert are you?

(49:30):
And he I like, I'm notgoing to read it all to you,
but he said, are you anintrovert? It depends on which book
you read, and then he listedthe samplings of various conceptualizations of introversion and
pop culture, in which Elaine Aaron'sbook is there Artistic, Sensitive, Creative.
Read The Highly Sensitive Person by ElaineAaron, Shy Socially Anxious The Gift

(49:54):
of Shyness by A Avila. Youprobably know all these books, thoughtful,
introspective, you can read some solitude. He has quiet, preference for quiet,
minimally stimulating environments. Read Quiet TheIntroverts Way by Sophia Dembling. Preference
for concentration and solitude. He hasa Jane Austen novel there, The Literary

(50:14):
Observer. I'll share one more worriedthe positive power of negative thinking. So
he lists all these pop culture referencesnice and then yeah, me too,
and then he goes through the Bigfive, the framework of personality, and
then also his alternative approach to introversion, and then talks about that, and

(50:39):
it's it's a good, good read. I'm not going to summarize, but
he asked what kind of introvert areyou? Social introversion, thinking introversion,
anxious introversion, and restrained introversion,And that's where he has the scale and
you can rate yourself. And hetalked about introversion meaning more word focusing.

(51:00):
So as you mentioned it earlier,and also in his conversation with doctor Luke
Smiley, introverts are more sensitive toothers is what came up. And so
that's just flat out not true.Okay, right there, Yeah, yeah,
let's talk about that. Let's callit out. Introverts are way less
sensitive to others. Okay, thisis the issue I have with a lot

(51:22):
of the introversion writing, especially actuallyspeaking it by Susan Kine. Okay,
she equates sensitivity with introversion. Andwhat happens when you do that is you
leave out the third percent of highlysensitive people who are extroverts, Like,
where do they fit in that they'reexisting? They're not existent, They're made

(51:44):
invisible by that. And then whatabout the large percentage of introverts who are
not drawn to be with other people? What did you say about that that
I took issue with that introverts aremore sensitive to others, That introverts are
more sensitive to others, I'm nottrue. Again, Let's think about all

(52:04):
the scientists where introversion is for manyof them, not all scientists or introverts,
but being introverted certainly helps helps younarrow your focus right and go into
whatever this is that if you runa lab or you're doing some profound research
that's going to change the world,you can't be too driven to interact with

(52:27):
other people. Right, many ofthese folks are introverts. They're profoundly brilliant
and they are not remotely drawn tobe sensitive to others. They're like they
have their tunnel vision on their thing, and that introversion is a gift.
It helps them stay focused and soanyways, just those converts are ignored by

(52:53):
that statement. But being sensitive toothers implies you are not highly sensitive.
No, I think being sensitive othersimplies a certain level of high sensitivity or
sensitivity. Okay, so you're saying, in other words, you could be
introverted without being a highly sensitive way. Plus like, yah, just because

(53:15):
I'm introverted, say I'm not highlysensitive and I'm just introverted, which is
like a less my fantasy is amuch less difficult way to exist in the
world. But I might appear sensitiveto others because I'm quiet. I'm not
getting in your face, yea,unless you piss me off while I'm working

(53:37):
on something important, and I mightsnap at you. But for the most
part, it might look sensitive toothers. But I think introverts are that
maybe like more like Oxford y Oxforddefinition type, you know, just really
focused inside on what they're thinking about. It's a beautiful thing. We need
so many of those people too.It's just not the same. Oh well,

(54:00):
it's so interesting because I could seemyself equating the two. But then
when I meet people in my workwho are introverts, I'm like, where's
the sensitivity piece? Like, Iguess it's not there, which is fine,
but it's so curious to me becausethere is an implication in my mind
of like inward focus means heightened othersensitivities. But no, why would I.

(54:23):
They're completely independent. It's really there'san overlap, but they're independent.
And I was thinking something, butI've lost it. Shi second about the
slide into shy. Yeah, soshy is learned behavior, shyness. It's

(54:44):
so important. I'm looking right intothe camera for those of your watching the
video. It's so important that wedon't call people shy, especially children.
Shy is a word that should beremoved from parenting and educational langeth which some
people do become shy when they're toldthat their way of being there's something wrong

(55:07):
with it or not right about it. But in fact, an introvert who
prefers less interaction is simply an introvertwho prefers less interaction and a sensitive kid
who wants to enter new interactions moreslowly. They're deep processing, they're not
shy. They're thinking before they divein, so we have to be so

(55:29):
careful. I was called shy mywhole childhood, so I might have a
little personal opinion. Was called shytoo, and I'm not remotely shy.
I just don't really care for people. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You
can still call me, you canstill call me for consultation. My kids,
one of my kids has been calledshay And I love how. I

(55:50):
have a clip, a memory ofyou talking about Shai. It's a beautiful
clip. Maybe I'll post it inthe notes too, you know, echoing
what you just said about he's notshy, he just needs time to assess
the environment and move in when he'scomfortable. It was just your tone and
the way you said it. Theadult introverts, Is that true of you?
Like, I'd like adults who havebeen labeled shy their whole lives to

(56:14):
reframe that, like process this alittle bit. Yeah, think about it.
Do you just need time? Youknow? Have you had bad experiences
that you need to reframe and healfrom? Because probably You're not actually shy,
you just have different preferences and yourbrain works differently, illuminating one person

(56:36):
at a time. I want totalk about the fact that you're standing right
now, and I also want totalk about what's on my page. So
because you're moving and you look likeagile and flexible and I'm sitting here like
not looking that way, and youare my inspiration for getting a standing desk.
I mean, I've been thinking aboutit, but then when we spoke
a few weeks ago, you're likemoving around and I'm like, oh my,

(57:00):
I'm sitting too much, Alene,And could you talk about the fact
that you're standing right now? Absolutely? And I'm thinking about in the new
year doing a book club on thisbook that has changed my life. Wow.
The book is called Built to Moveby Juliette and Kelly Starrett, and
they got a lot of content outthere in the world. And Kelly Starrett

(57:22):
as a physical therapist or physiotherapist asthe Canadians call it, and the this
book Built to Move is sort ofwatered down for the common reader like me.
I'm no job, you know.And they have ten points that they

(57:42):
make that will change your life forhealth. And so I've been told many
times in my life to stand up, you know, to get a stand
up desk. When my son wasin maybe fifth or sixth grade, I
bought something that sits on the tabletop, and that's a stand up it's
easily a symbol that's made out ofsome kind of nice wood, and it's

(58:07):
adjustable. But you can just whatI'm right now. I'm standing in front
of a chest of drawers and onit I have three books, some larger
than others in a box, andso my computer is raised up. If
I were typing, it would bejust on the dresser, but so the
camera can be at a good height. And it turns out that we should

(58:30):
never sit more than six hours aday, that includes meals, work,
everything. And I'm just about topost on Instagram something about standing up,
and I just wrote the description forit, and I said, sometimes I
even put a bucket upside down onthe tailgate of my pickup so I can

(58:52):
work outside on a stand up desk. So you fidget, you move,
and further doubt, it's really clearwe need to be moving to twelve to
fifteen thousand steps a day, andall these little incidental steps that I'm taking
while we're talking to you. Yeahright. And again, I'm unlike you.
I'm not out running every morning.Those steps count too, but I

(59:13):
am. I'm loosening up everything.Yeah right, I have. I feel
better looking at you move even Elaine. I have my little ikea step stool
here. Yeah, and that bunglesor what what what do you do with
that? I put one foot upon it, oh right, right to
relieve the pressure of my back andon my lower back of standing. And

(59:37):
look you, I have so mucharthritis and I have one total knee replacement.
I've got like bone on bone arthritisthroughout my lumbar spine. If there
was ever anyonne I have. Well, my physical therapist, who's also brilliant,
told me that I don't have.You don't have planter fasch itis since
you're you know, for twenty fiveyears, which is or thirty five years,

(59:59):
which is what I thought because Ifirst got it in my mid twenties.
And instead he said, you havelazy foot. The arch, he
said, the arch of your footis the core. It's like your core.
You know, we all know ourcore needs to be strong for our
back. Well, the arch ofyour foot is the core of your foot.
And so I took out all myarch supports, and I'm what the

(01:00:22):
starts call, and many people call. In fact, I'm taking my birkenstocks
off right now. I do standin birkenstocks when I stand a lot,
but I also spend some time withno shoes, and we need to rewild
our feet blah blah blah on theground. There's some fits I can't even
tell you. So yes, I'malmost obscessfully working standing up. I have
to force myself to go and sitdown now. And then do your legs

(01:00:45):
get tired or is it because you'retired, But it's a good tired.
Oh, I get mental tired fromall my work. Yeah. I mean
when I have physical tired, thenguess what I'm more likely to sleep?
Of course, I mean I knowwhere digress here. But I'm just going
to keep in this progression of thistopic about standing, because yesterday I had

(01:01:05):
like a jam packed client teaching mentoringday and I was spent by the end
because I need to move, Ineed to get out. I did go
for a run in the morning,but that was not nearly enough. Like
I need air, I need tomove, and it was just another day
where I felt like, I know, I'm getting the standing desk or setting
it up so that I can doit, because I just I need it,
and so you're showing me it again. It's on my list when I

(01:01:30):
have time to go do it,but I'm going to make the time,
especially because you're saying I can getit more steps and I was thinking of
even just putting a walking pad.I don't know how distracting that might be
or not, but even at aslow pace. Just read that one chapter
on sitting and standing in that book, because they got a lot of great
ideas. They have all these there'sall these little things you can get to

(01:01:50):
help you. But the thing isthat one of the things they say in
the book, it's a great recommendation, especially since you have some people working
in the traditional work world and don'twait around for your company to buy you
a stand up desk. And thisis this is kind of funny, but
they're funny. This couple to marriedcouple that wrote the book. Yeah,
and they read it on the audiobook. They read it themselves. They take

(01:02:13):
turns reading chapters. The husband andthe wife. Okay, one of the
things they say is go get thegrossest cardboard box that you can find behind
some you know, grocery store,and use it and put it on your
desk at work in the office tomake a stand up desk. Most people
who do that within three weeks they'vegot a fancy stand up desk at the
company purchased for me. Well,I was speaking with a friend who's employed

(01:02:36):
by a company and she's like,well, I've had a standing desk for
years, you know, And I'mlike, that's what happens when you're self
employed. You know, you've gotto be the ergonomic specialist you got to
be, you know, got tocheck budget. My friend, my friend,
she is my friend, but myson's principal from high school had a
treadmill stand up desk in her office. Cool. I mean I want that.

(01:02:58):
Phone calls and you know, workingon the computer. Like personally,
I already told you I'm not ajob. I can't actually type while walking.
Well that's to be able to do. I have to take notes sometimes
while I'm listening. Yeah, okay, well this is good, so you
can do a little bit. Soanyway, it's just it's about you know,

(01:03:19):
taking better care of our bodies sothat our brains are doing better.
Especially Yeah, go ahead, No, go ahead. There's one more thing
I wanted to throw in than theywere doing it. We're going a long
as we always do. Yes,I know, it's that whole introvert backlash
thing. I just want to acknowledge. We've talked a lot about extroverting and

(01:03:40):
about you know, your persona andyou know, put finding ways that you
can navigate being out in the world, and I just want to acknowledge that
I personally experience a very severe introvertbacklash after these these events, and I
wanted to tell a little story aboutthe first time I made up that term

(01:04:03):
introvert backlash. I'm not saying noone else out there has ever made it
up, But what do you meanby introvert backlash? I'm going to tell
you. Okay, So you know, I have this community online called are
You Highly Sensitive? And I teachtwo live master classes every month, one
for parents raising sensitive kids and reframingchildhood. People who aren't parents come to

(01:04:26):
that one too, and then onefor HSPs in general. We usually have
a theme. I often I amnow teaching all of these classes standing the
whole time. They go for ninetyminutes to two and a half hours,
even though the goal for me isto do seventy five minutes. Being an
hsp F, I'm that very difficult. And so I have been doing this
for four years and it's our fouryear anniversary in December. I started December

(01:04:51):
twenty nineteen. I'm so proud ofit. And I have this video somewhere
that I recorded where I said sometimesit wasn't pretty and often it was pretty
hard. But I've been doing it. But the introvert backlash story is that
the very first time I did itwas in mid December, the very first

(01:05:12):
one, I think only three peoplecame and I after I did that,
like prepared for it. I meanI was basically having an anxiety attack the
entire time, like that persona wasn'twell developed yet. I'm used to just
being in face to face therapist,one on one family or whatever. And

(01:05:34):
I could not go on screen forat least six weeks after that. Wow,
severe introvert backlash. I wrote aboutit in a blog and I made
it made a little YouTube video aboutit that will link in the show notes.
But what that meant was I basicallylived in anxiety about having put myself

(01:05:58):
out there. It was so hardfor me. I did it without Like
I said, I did it withoutthe persona right, and so what I
needed to do was to go crawlinto my cave, you know, figuratively
right, because I'm being on thison that. But my, oh my
gosh, it was so much ofa risk for me. I felt like

(01:06:19):
I just took off all my defensesand opened up my flesh and showed you
my most tender, tender, vulnerableplaces. And you know, like I
said, only three people watched it, so I know that that happens,
and now I am. And Icame up with the blog. You know,
I wrote about it. That's oneof the ways I process is I

(01:06:42):
write about my experiences. I wroteabout it. I put it on my
website. You know, I said, this is what happened. And I
did no classes in January that year, twenty twenty. January twenty twenty zero
content. Wow, And it wasokay because nobody had joined yet, so
I had to heal. Yeah,I've already mentioned Gail, my therapist.

(01:07:05):
I'm in therapy and I have beenmost of my adult life. I have
mentors, I have spiritual practice.All of these things help me deal with
my introvert backlashes. But mostly themost important piece for me is acknowledging it,
noticing when it's happening, and acceptingthat that's who I am. I

(01:07:26):
can't live like all of them outthere. That's the door to the front
porch there. I can't live withlike them, right, I live like
me. Yeah. I don't alwayslike it, and sometimes I have backlash,
but then I take myself in.I lick my wounds. I heal
myself. You know, the dogscan heal almost anything just with their saliva,
right, they lick their wounds.Yeah, and I have to,

(01:07:49):
you know, just be a gooddog and heal myself and then I can
go to it again, maybe witha little more preparation. So that's what
I would wish for the introverts outthere, that you acknowledge the introverse backlash
happens, that you take really goodcare of yourself, You feel yourself,

(01:08:12):
and then you try again, andyou try to do it with just a
little bit more self preservation. Beautiful, Thank you for that. I'm wondering
about, like how what it wouldlook like for an extrovert to have backlash.
Well, they have it every singleday. It's not even backlash,
it's just their way of being right. They get over over exhausted, yeah,

(01:08:35):
almost always. Like maybe when they'reon vacation they don't or you know,
something like that, but probably theystill do because they have the pull
to go out. So they're juston a cycle like cycle, and it's
ex sensitive extroverts. They really haveto be careful. That's regular extroverts.
I mean everybody. Like literally,I saw this research announced on the Today

(01:08:59):
Show or something like that on PopNews and I don't remember where, but
I remember I like, I don'tknow, I was probably at my parents'
house and the TV was on andthis like new research on extroverts. Extroverts
are more often overwhelmed by their livesthan introverts. Wow, So I have
compassion for you extroverts. I do. I love you extroverts and introverts.

(01:09:25):
I like to socialize with an extrovertbecause they take all the heat, you
know. Okay, I wanted toshare this from Scott Barry Kaufman's research.
I don't know if this is Reacher's. Sorry I'm not being clear on this,
but you could probably confirm or notthat there are two aspects to test
for introversion. One is sociability andtwo is the need for deliberate The need

(01:09:49):
for deliberation, so the tendency towardsaction, thinking before we act, thinking
about what the consequences might be,you know, less risk taking, more
self control. Interesting. I don'treally know that much about that. Again,
I'm always wondering about all the differentkinds of introverts. But that makes

(01:10:10):
it as those two components. Right, Let's ask enough people can comment right
on your on your website, thispodcast. Let's ask people to tell tell
us what you think about that.Yeah, And I know we're bringing this
to a close and I want people, I want us to share about like
you're you have something exciting coming up, and I have something coming up in
February and soon. So I stillfeel like I need to parse out like

(01:10:39):
the HSP trait and then the introversionpersonality. But it's interesting to me how
they could coexist but don't need tobe directly intersecting, right, And they
just aren't right, they aren't TRULYEjust get it straight. And I just
want to encourage people to really thinkof it as a verb. You can

(01:10:59):
do it all. You get tochoose when you're going to you know,
you are one thing, but youget to choose how you want to present
in the world. Hm, that'sthe persona, that's the verb. Yeah,
it's not the inherent trait or geneticdisposition. This disposition, temperament and

(01:11:19):
personality. And you can't change thesethings. You didn't have to say that.
Yeah, you can't change your sensitivity, can't change whether you're an introvert
or extrovert. But you can makeconscious choices about how you live in the
world and how you take care ofyourself and how you push yourself and if
you want really good tips, strategiesand insight on all of this stuff,

(01:11:41):
especially HSP living being a highly sensitiveperson parent check out Alain friend, tell
us about your membership and then likehow you're celebrating it and how people could
be a part of it. Please, So you know, I have this
thing that I've agreed and decided inmy life that I would answer any question
anyone sends me, and I learnedit from a colleague to do these live

(01:12:05):
q and as. So in mymembership, it's very inexpensive and no one's
turned away for lack of funds,like the way Buddhist teachers don't charge,
but they accept donations. It's thatkind of thing. So you can find
me on my website a lang frienddot com. There's my name on the

(01:12:27):
screen. It's and it'll be inthe show notes so you can see it's
spelled funny. But on social media, I'm are you Highly Sensitive? At
Are You Highly Sensitive? On bothYouTube and Instagram, and I'm just putting
tons and tons of content out there. But what happens for these from in
my membership is people can submit questionsahead of time because all the classes come
back as recordings, so even ifyou can't attend live, I will answer

(01:12:51):
your question if you give it tome ahead of time. That's why they
go on and on like sometimes wehave eighteen questions and now we've gotten better
with our tech, so now wegive a time stamp so you can go
find what the questions are and listento just that part if you know,
or listen to that part first.So I've been doing this for four years.

(01:13:11):
I have tons and tons of content. We're slowly but surely putting it
all up on the are You HighlySensitive? Store so people can buy these
old master classes if they want,and members get them for half price.
But for our four year anniversary,I'm making a gift to my community that
everyone who is a member, andif you've been a member in the past,
I'll give you a free pass tojoin again. It's free this event.

(01:13:32):
The celebration December thirteenth, twenty twentythree, we're doing a day.
IE am leading a day long,live online retreat for highly sensitive people.
It's called Discovering Joy. And I'mgoing to put the link to the landing
page below, but I really wantyou to go and look at it because

(01:13:54):
in November I taught it on.I taught classes on transforming suffering and navigating
stress. All of those things arefuming large people. Right as we enter
yesterday, we started the two darkestmonths of the year, which can be
really challenging for thinking, sensitive feelingpeople, especially more challenging for us.

(01:14:15):
So I thought, what is theantidote to star in stress? Really the
antidote is joy. So we're goingto it's going to be a quiet I'm
going to encourage people, except forin our small group discussions, to take
that day in silence, and I'mgoing to invite people everywhere to take that

(01:14:35):
day. December thirteenth in silence.So if that's all you do, and
then I'm hoping that then I'm goingto do a teaching on how to be
in silence, and I'm hoping thatthat is so resourcing and so refreshing to
us that we will all begin totake one day a month in silence.
Wow, Alene, amazing if wecould create this, because you know,

(01:14:58):
I have this little videos called howdo you change the world? How does
the highly sensitive person change the worldby healing ourselves? By taking care of
ourselves? I truly believe that.I mean, that's part of the emotional
leadership piece. So what if weintentionally went into silence, even parenting little
kids, it's such good teaching forthem, and really took care of ourselves.

(01:15:21):
So I'm going to do a lotof guidance and it's going to be
the kind of retreat that people cancome and go. You know, time
zones. People in Europe might notwant to stay up late enough because it's
going to end around four Pacific timesseven pm Eastern time, so late in
the night in Europe. And whendoes it begin? When does the day
begin? Eleven thirty am Eastern time? Okay, eleven thirty to seven thirty

(01:15:46):
or seven somewhere in there. Okay, And so anyway, this link below
is the landing. It's the websitefor it. Lots of information, including
the full schedule. Incredible to happen, and you know, I'll probably record
some of my rants, but mostlyit's not going to be a whole recorded
thing. Really, you have toshow up and just take exquisite care of

(01:16:11):
yourselves. And I'm going to teachfour major joy practices. I have an
offering on the landing page that Itaught. It's just maybe a ten or
eleven minute class on many joy practices, and I there are many me and
Y, but I did four.There's really kind of five in there,

(01:16:31):
but four distinct practices that you couldstart today by checking out that video.
And the more we fire those joyneurons, the more they will be wired
in us, and then the moreresources will have inside us to navigate the
stress of the holidays and life.Wow. I'm very excited. It's like

(01:16:54):
it's the birthday present to all mycommunity. I love my community. I
feel like I'm really getting to knowthe people who are in there, and
you know, they reach out tome and I support them. And I
just this has been my life's dream, is to be able to change the
lives of more people, you know, not just one person at a time.

(01:17:15):
As a highly sense of personal Ican't see more than ten therapy clients
a month. I mean a weekand probably a month is what would be
realistic. So I only see afew people individually. And because I put
a lot of energy into this community, because I want to impact thousands of
people, I want to change theworld for highly sensitive people, and I

(01:17:38):
just it fills my heart to haveto have this community, and you know,
to really show up live. There'snot very little in there as pre
recorded. You know, you getthe recordings afterwards, but I am really
showing up me personally. That's amazing. You're with you. Thank you for
sharing that. Congratulations on your brilliantcreation, bringing your passion forward and inspiring

(01:18:02):
all of us and offering us aspace and changing people's lives. Truly,
I'm so excited for you. Ifeel you about to levitate. You are
standing, so maybe you are,but I'm so excited for you. I
think it's great. I know Ihave some clients things booked that day,
but I will show up. Iwill be sharing it. I love when

(01:18:23):
you use the word exquisite, andwhenever I use a word now, I
immediately think about you because of howyou use it, an exquisite or finely
to nervous system that one too,and the word exquisite and because of you
so much has helped me be abetter parent, take good care of myself

(01:18:45):
my nervous system. And also Ihave a program coming up that has been
inspired by the work that I've donewith you, and also by another fellow
guest on my podcast, Nicole Shiner, So I just wanted to share that
here. It's called I'm pulling itup here, Caring without Carrying it All.
It's a virtual group program for sensitivehelping professionals, caregivers, creatives and

(01:19:11):
change makers, a soft place toarrive and belong and to honor your sensitivity
and capacity. And it's a fiveweek program with a week of integration break
and really excited about it. It'shappening in February, and it's on my
website, so I'll put some I'llput the link below, and yeah,

(01:19:36):
thank you Elaine for being my friend, being all of our friend you know,
for your heart, for coming onhere and taking time out to chat
and to explain the basics which weall want to know. It's so good
to speak to you one day.I know we're going to meet and all

(01:19:57):
those good things, and I getto touch all your anim and play with
them maybe, and I get tosee them on Instagram anyway and on YouTube.
But thank you. Do you feellike we've covered everything? I mean
there's always more. I mean,have we covered everything? We've covered a
lot. I think we're doing great, and I'm really appreciate the platform to

(01:20:21):
get this information out and all ofthe things that you've shared today. I'll
be looking into some of them.I learn some things myself, and it's
always great to have this collaboration andthis heart connection with you. Thank you,
Eleine. Thank you everyone for listeningand being a part of our co

(01:20:44):
creation. See you next time.Bye. Thank you, Elene, friend
to your companion of understanding sensitivity,bringing compassion to sensitivity and introversion and all

(01:21:11):
those things and the in between.Are you highly sensitive dot com? And
please check out her day retreat.I put the link in my on my
Instagram and then also I'll put itin the show notes. Discovering Joy,
a day long retreat for highly sensitivepeople and we're giving away one free ticket,

(01:21:32):
so maybe you'll be that person.I'll be drawing a name, so
get in touch with me at julianconversationdot com or on my Instagram page at
Julie Kismayu. And also be sureto check out Caring Without Carrying at All,
where I get to host co hostwith Nicole Shiner, Compassionate Fatigue professional,

(01:21:56):
registered psychotherapist and myself certified professional coach, Executive Coach, Life Coach Intuitive
and we're giving away to the firstsix people who sign up the Intuitive Reading
and RANI. So maybe that'll beyou and I look forward to hearing from
you. It's happening in February.Thank you so much. What did you

(01:22:17):
gain? Did you gain some greateresteem, confidence, and value, perspective,
insight, any of those? Letme know, Let us know.
Drop a comment. Wherever you findthis podcast, be sure to share a

(01:22:38):
review as well of the podcast onSpotify or Apple Podcasts. A good review
is always helpful. Gets this podcastout to more people, supporting more people
and being who they are, bringinginsight to who they are, helping people
connect to the wisdom of who theyare. The strengths of who they are
and bringing that out into the worldbetter time than in present, right,

(01:23:01):
So thank you so much for beinghere with me today. Be sure to
check out and support the work ofalien Friend, all the good work that
she does. Stay tuned into thepodcast, Stay tuned into yourself. What
is rising in you, what iscalling your attention? What do you need
right now? Thank you for takingthis time out for yourself, giving yourself
this permission to be curious, curiousand not judgmental, open mind, open

(01:23:30):
heart goodness. We do need thatright. Thank you for bringing this attention,
bringing this to your attention and honoringyou. Whether you be a full
on introvert, full on extrovert,both an ambivert and or highly sensitive,
I honor you, Thank you,thank you for being here today. Make

(01:23:53):
you let your intuition lead See younext time. Check out julianconversation dot com.
Bye for now.

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