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April 5, 2023 73 mins
Nicole Schiener is passionate about fostering healthy relationships at home and work and is on a mission to liberate mothers from perfectionism and the pressure to do it all. Part 1 of my conversation with Nicole Schiener included the following:

-Topics connected to Eve Rodsky’s book, FAIRPLAY- A Game Changing Solution for When You Have Too Much to Do (and More Life to Live).
i.e. the misconception that women have infinite time and men have finite time. As Eve Rodsky says in her book-
-Recovering from the pandemic
-Burnout and Compassion Fatigue and the difference between the two.
-How therapy can support you
-In Nicole’s words, the importance of "Caring without carrying the responsibilities."

Nicole Schiener
Nicole Schiener is an Award Winning Registered Psychotherapist in Ontario Canada. She's a Certified Gottman Bringing Baby Home Educator and regular contributor to the Gottman Blog. As part of her recovery from burn out, Nicole became a Certified Compassion Fatigue Professional facilitating wellness workshops to other helping professionals.

Nicole is passionate about fostering healthy relationships at home and work and is on a mission to liberate mothers from perfectionism and the pressure to do it all. A proud mom of teens, she loves reading memoirs and being in Nature. Visit her website ( https://peaceandpossibility.ca)


https://peaceandpossibility.ca/free-resources
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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:18):
Hello everyone, and welcome to JulianConversation. Today is Wednesday, April fifth,
twenty twenty three, and I'm delightedto be with you here today.
How are you today, How areyou feeling? What's happening in your body?
Where are you right now? Whatare you doing? Are you taking
some time off from the day?Are you slipping into nighttime? I'm in

(00:44):
Montreal, Canada, situated on unseatedindigenous lands of the traditional territory of the
gag Nakahoga Nation. I am gratefulto be here with you today. I'm
recognizing the nations, the peoples whohave come before me, who have enabled

(01:06):
me to appreciate where I am rightnow, to be on this land,
people who I know and who Idon't know, my own ancestry, my
own heritage, and just honoring andacknowledging this moment of acknowledgment to wonder,
to be curious, to be thankful, to appreciate, and what are you
appreciating? Who are you appreciating?What land are you on? Where do

(01:29):
you come from? How's your bodyfeeling right now? Let's breathe into that
perhaps together and just notice any tightspots, any tension bringing breath into those
spots, creating space. I'm excitedto be sharing with you today a conversation

(01:55):
that I recently had, Part oneof a two part conversation I had with
Nicole Shiner. It's her second timeon the podcast, and I'm so glad
that I'll be able to share thisconversation with you here. Nicole is a
registered award winning psychotherapist. Bravo Nicole. She's a certified Canadian counselor and certified

(02:17):
Compassion Fatigue Professional. We talk aboutthat in the conversation. She's certified Gotman
Educator bringing baby home with twenty yearsexperience using a variety of evidence based approaches.
She provides individual counseling, online groupcoaching, and trauma informed in mental
health and wellness workshops for organizations inOntario, Canada. She's passionate about fostering

(02:42):
healthy relationships at home and work,and is on a mission to liberate mothers
from perfectionism and the pressure to doit all. She's a proud mom of
teens, loves reading memoirs and beingin nature. Visit her website at Peace
and Possibility dot CA, peacee andPossibility dot ccx YEA. She has so
many resources, so many valuable offerings, great writing articles. I can't say

(03:07):
enough about all the resources that sheprovides. And so you'll hear more about
what Nicole does and the wisdom thatshe shares in this upcoming conversation. She
does share her work with the GotmanInstitute, and that we didn't go into
it in detail about who the Gotminsare, but the Gotman Institute, and
I'll just share it with you nowis the culbination of doctors John and doctor

(03:30):
Julie Gotman's life work as researchers andclinical psychologists and their approach to relationships based
on science that they've developed over fortyyears of research with more than three thousand
couples, the most extensive study everdone on marital stability. And so that's
the Gotman Institute. Those are theGotmins and I just want to allow you

(03:54):
to enjoy this conversation. We hadit about a week ago and then realize
that we needed more time and sowe did a part two and that I'll
be featuring next week. So staytuned, let us know what you gain.
Be sure to find Nicole on socialmedia. She's on LinkedIn, on
Instagram and really nice to be herewith you today. You'll hear more about

(04:17):
what we get into. But it'sgood. Lots of resources and not that
I'm trying to make this a tease, but I'm trying to succinctly put it
all together. That we talked aboutthe quality and equity and relationships. We
talked about being on the heels ofthe pandemic. We talked about compassionate care

(04:39):
care giving and compassionate fatigue and burnoutand more lots more. So please enjoy
thanks for tuning in. Not toesee your body at all times. It's
always good to see where it changes, what you notice is happening internally,
what provokes a change? Why areyou suddenly feeling more relaxed or why are

(05:01):
you suddenly feeling more tense? Andhow are you feeling right now? Let's
take a few breaths before I pressplay on this conversation, and then I'll
meet you on the other side.May you receive what it is you need
to receive and what it is youdidn't even know you needed. And because
I always say this and I don'twant to leave it out, it's always

(05:24):
a perfect and right time to betuning in. So thanks for doing this.
For yourself and I look forward tobeing in touch. Feel free to
let me know you're listening and whereyou're listening from. You can find me
at julianconversation dot com. If you'renew to the podcast, welcome. If
you're returning, Welcome back. Iam a life an executive coach. I'm
a mentor coach, intuitive consultant.I host dance experiences for people to get

(05:46):
out of their heads, get intothe wisdom of their body and allow it
to support them in navigating life.If you want to find out more about
what I do, check out Julieusmariodot com. Don't forget to leave a
review on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, Please check out my Patreon
page. You can become a supporterof the podcast not only by sharing the

(06:06):
podcast and leave a review, butalso by a donation of money which supports
the podcast and everything that goes withthe maintenance of the podcast and meet delivering
the podcast and thank you to thosewho are already patrons. You can provide
a monthly donation for the little thosethree dollars a month, or a one
time donation so just you can findit all at Julianconversation dot com honoring you

(06:30):
see you, honoring the earth andwhat's happening on it and in it,
and giving space for this conversation rightnow with Nicole Shiner. So thanks for
tuning in, enjoy. Hello,welcome Nicole Shiner to the podcast this time

(06:50):
because you've been here before, butwe're doing it video style as well,
So nice to see your beautiful face. Oh it's wonderful to see you too,
Julie. Thank you. Last timewe spoke was in November twenty twenty
in the midst deep into the pandemic. Before we get into how you are

(07:14):
where you are now, do youwant to share where you are and just
share any and all or whatever feelsrelevant context to enabling you to be here
right now? Sure? Absolutely,and welcome to everyone listening. So I
am located on the Puldaman Tract,and that was the land promised to the

(07:35):
hod Nshone peoples of the Six Nations, and that's the traditional territory of the
Annie hold Nashone and Neutrals peoples.So I feel grateful to to have such
beauty, you know, to besurrounded by such beauty. I'm close to

(07:56):
the Grand River and deeply grateful forthe land and water protectors of the past,
and the Indigenous people who continue toshare their wisdom and their advocacy for
this earthen all of it's here onthis surface. Thank you as you're sharing
the land acknowledgement you know. Ofcourse Asha Frost comes to mind, a

(08:22):
teacher, friend of both of ours, and actually the bridge that enabled us
to meet. So of course shejust came into my into my mind and
heart. And also you know,acknowledging that I'm in Montreal known as Joe
Jaga and situated, situated, situatedon situated. Is that a word situated,

(08:45):
Yeah, that's the word on unseatedindigenous lens of the Gugnigjoga nation.
And of course living into what itmeans to acknowledge, you know, the
land, the people who have comebefore me and enabled me to be here
right now with you, and tomy own ancestors, you know, doing

(09:09):
some work into uncovering or just beingcurious about my own ancestry these days,
you know, And so that's beeninteresting. But I really appreciate speaking to
you always because you, to me, are such a light of so many
things, of wisdom, of advocacyof words that really touch me. You

(09:35):
know, I feel like you havesuch a way. And I've shared this
with you, of course many times, because every time, like I feel
like I could be trying to sharesomething, let's say, on social media,
and I'll be sitting with it andit just doesn't come together so quickly
for me. And then I seeyou sharing something either we wanted to bring
our attention to, or some elementof social justice or mental health. And

(09:58):
the way that you describe the issueor the matter, or however you want
to bring our attention to it isso beautifully eloquent and precise, and you
have just such a gift for writing. And it's like every time I read,
I'm like, oh, that wasso good, Nicol, Like how
did you just manage to put thattogether? So it feels like it can

(10:18):
never be redundant, because I feelthat every time I read your writing,
oh, thank you so much.It's funny because I turned to writing partly
because I was seeing common themes thatkept coming up in the work that I
was doing with clients, and Ijust felt like I wish more people knew

(10:41):
this, and not all people thatwere ready or able to access therapy,
or sometimes it was being a voicefor the clients in wanting to help educate
kind of the general public about youknow, things that were assumptions that were
causing harm and what instead helped.And then also for me it was a

(11:05):
way at times with some of thesebigger issues that felt like, I don't
know, like it was just nomatter how many clients you support, you
still see more of whether it's genderbased violence, sexual abuse, or whatever.
It was. So to be ableto find ways to speak up and
speak out and be part of somethingbigger than myself was really helpful for me.

(11:31):
And then of course sharing my ownstruggles, share and learning to share
vulnerably and honestly about my journey asa mom because it wasn't easy, and
then my journey as a mental healthprofessional who struggled with secondary trauma, who
had to recover through burnout, andpartly because of the pandemic, partly because

(11:58):
of a whole lot of other factors. But I'm always grateful for the opportunity
to be able to kind of turnsome of those wounds into wisdom and then
to share them, share them withothers, and to hear, to hear
the impact that that's having is alwaysso so touching, so beautiful, so
thank you so much. Yes,it touches, it reaches me, that's

(12:22):
for sure. And I know manypeople I know today we wanted to reference,
like your recent article or articles talkingabout relationships and equality and relationships.
And I have this book fair Playhere that we can we'll talk about a

(12:43):
little bit, a game changing solutionfor when you have too much to do
and in parentheses and more life toLive by Eve Rodsky. I haven't read
the whole thing, that's for sure, but I've picked some things out.
And I heard her on some podcastsand I thought, how perfect that we
had talked about, like, youknow, unpaid labor, and how do
we talk about the labor, themental load, the emotional load, and

(13:07):
maybe we could talk about that today. And then I caught wind of Ivrotsky.
I forget where I heard about her. I felt like, oh,
I think it was through a lanefriend who's been on my podcast many times,
the HSP consultant and family life therapist, and she kept talking about fair
Play, and I felt like,how come I never heard about this book?

(13:28):
Like late to the game, butfelt very alive in me to read
it or to skim through it,and so I just bringing it here.
So of course we're not going toget into it. It's not like a
book review. But I feel likethere's some things in there that we can
touch on, like that we hadspoken about before we do that we spoke
in November twenty twenty. I listenedto our podcast and it was beautiful to

(13:50):
listen to. I'm always amazed formany reasons. One it's like, oh,
I can conduct a conversation and itsounds go hear it on one level
and then the other one level.It's like I keep learning every time I
re listen. And I loved whatyou shared, and you know this idea
of like mental health is social justiceand all of the insight that you shared

(14:13):
around mental health and the pandemic anddealing with moments of crisis or unknown,
and so I want to welcome peopleto that and I'll link that in the
show notes. They can listen tothat. But where are you now?
Like you've had some leaps and changesin your career, and your kids are

(14:33):
a little bit older now, andthat doesn't mean that you're not as busy
as before, but maybe busier.So yeah, just do you want to
tell us where you are. AndI'm also curious because we haven't really caught
up other than me seeing you onsocial media and you know, connecting on
some dms and stuff. Yeah.So I experienced some physical pain, partly

(14:58):
from a recurring from an injury,and then part of it was also just
not a really good aer chronomically correctsetup when I went to working from home,
which I think is very common.But through that process of doing some
of that physical healing, I reallyconnected with the not feeling fully in alignment

(15:20):
with working for a general nonprofit agencyand the complexity of the client issues,
the amount of trauma the cases thatI had, and as a highly sensitive
person and as a mom, itwas just a lot. And so going
through that process, I really lookedat, you know what am I most

(15:43):
passionate about? What do I see, who do I see as being most
impacted by the pandemic, and wheredo I feel like I can be most
of service. And so that ledme to open up a virtual private practice
as well as to offer walking sessions. So as a registered psychotherapist, it's

(16:04):
I can only support people in Ontario, but so I primarily focus on supporting
women moms, the sensitive ones,because I definitely can relate to that,
the caregivers, the healers, thehelpers, the unpast, the teachers.
I've supported a lot of teachers inthe last while. But another aspect of

(16:27):
the work that I really love andmy own journey with recovering from my carrious
trauma and fash fatigue, is howto support other helpers in the within the
organization. So I've been really fortunateto work with some of my community partners
that I had worked when I didmy gender based violence work and to be

(16:48):
able to provide workshops mental health andwellness and trauma inform workshops to support their
staff in being able to just tocreate space to talk about the impact of
the pandemic because we were all therest into doing the work, but we
were also going through you know,what some would say was a trauma,

(17:11):
and you know, all impacted invarious ways in terms of losses, other
you know, other challenges, stressors, what have you. And so that's
I've really enjoyed that aspect of thework as well. And yes, my
kids are older, so they don'tneed me as much, So it's kind

(17:32):
of like the business is my newbaby. Kind of thing. And then
to sort of fill that void becauseI loved my time when they were little
and we would just play or Iwould read them stories would have you,
So to honor that as well ascommunity, because that's really important to me.

(17:52):
I doing volunteering in a school withlittle little children, helping them with
their reading, and that brings meso much much joy. Wow mm hmmm.
Yeah, I wish my kid wasin your class or in that class
where you could be coming in.So your kids are I don't know if

(18:14):
you want to share their ages,but their teens right, young teens?
Yeah, I read two teens nowfw teens. Congratulations, I'm writing notes
impact of the pandemic. We couldspend a whole hour on that one,
right for sure. Congratulations on takingthat leap. And it sounds like there's
some joy in what you're doing andwhat you've shifted into. Yeah, it's

(18:38):
really interesting because I'm I do notwant to burn out again. So I've
been really mindful of building really slowly, and that has been great for my
you know, for my health,yeah, and to be there for my
for my children in offset my husbandmoving into a more demanding role in history.

(19:00):
But It's also very interesting how muchwe internalize this pressure of you know,
how we should be, what weshould be doing, and you know,
how we associate certain things with youknow, success or to feel good
about it. And so I've reallyhad to, like, I've really had

(19:22):
to challenge that being careful to notcompare myself to others, to really like
celebrate this courage, because it doestake courage to be in the space of
unknown, right of course, butin in that middle space, which I'm
very fortunate to know a lot ofentrepreneurs who kind of talk about that middle

(19:45):
space, that void where you're kindof in between waiting, not really sure
what else is you know, amI meant to be doing? Who else
is meant to come into my life? And just that that kind of surrender,
right, that's not that's not easy. And that's where a lot of
our own staff, you know,even if we've done our own personal work,

(20:07):
a lot of that kind of stuffcan come up, you know,
spending more time by myself. Soit's been really interesting because I've seen parallels
in some ways to being at homewith a little one, right, and
some of that feeling of isolation orsome of that feeling of questioning am I
doing enough? And so it's beenhelpful in that sense to be able to

(20:30):
kind of remember because it was solong ago that mine were that little,
to support when I'm you know,when I'm supporting new moms, and it's
like this whole this work around whichis continuous around identity, right like,
as we shift, as we change, as we grow older as children,

(20:53):
if we're caretaking grow are you know, gaining their independence? We're constantly faced
with right like what now? Whoam I? What do I need to
be doing? Do I need tobe doing something? You know, how
am I feeling? And so yeah, just honoring the courage and that it's

(21:17):
taken for you and do you haveany you know, for those people listening.
And this is resonating some on somelevel, whether it's caretaking parenting or
as a caretaking an infant or childrenin general or whatever it is transition in
life, Like, what has helpedyou move through this? Yeah? Well,

(21:41):
I think like when I think abouteach time that I've worked to kind
of step outside of my comfort zone, especially somebody who has struggled with my
own anxiety and has you know,stayed fairly you know, in that comfort
risk taking has not been one ofmy strengths. So reaching out and having

(22:06):
support, whether that be through anonline community or whether that be through my
own therapist or coaching, to havethose mentors kind of like to help take
you to sort of that next level, and also to help with the stuff
that comes up, as I said, right, and because our mind can

(22:27):
play tricks on us, right,and we can start to get into,
you know, a low place,and really sometimes all we need is just
to shift our environment, shift ournervous system state, you know, with
getting outside or calling someone. Butif we're not aware that our thoughts can

(22:51):
be deeply influenced by the state thatwe're in, we can start to believe
those thoughts to be true and thenyou know, go even further down kind
of right. So the other thingthat I find really helpful is reflective writing.
I have journals upon journals upon journals, right, and so sometimes just

(23:11):
getting it out and then being ableto relate with that compassion and to see
that oh, this is a youngerpart of me, for oh, this
is you know, this is actuallythis is happening for me because this is
something that I need to reclaim orthat I need to heal. Or that

(23:33):
I need to let go of,which has very much been what my conscious
parenting journey has been about. Soit's something that I often encourage clients,
you know, if we can sitwith these experiences, whether it's with our
children or partners, at work,or wherever we find ourselves creative endeavors,

(23:55):
and relate with that curiosity and thatcompassion to say, Okay, why is
this coming up for me? Andhow can I sort of give to those
younger parts of myself but I neededbut didn't yet at the time, Or
how can I you know, sortof write the next chapter of my story

(24:18):
in terms of what I know tobe true now versus what society has told
me. And it's ongoing, right, it never ends, of course,
a lot of disruption, a lotof self compassion, a lot of curiosity,
a lot of looking for the opportunities. It sounds like, you know
how you're describing it. Obviously,I could relate to the process that you're

(24:41):
sharing in terms of just knowing thatthese are the places you can go to
and when it is that you needthe support to go to those places you
know, outside of yourself, becausewe can't do it alone, right,
I mean, I know I can'tI could speak for myself, though I
often feel like I can, Butyeah, I appreciate that. And I

(25:06):
was thinking as you were talking,you know earlier you said you don't want
to burn out again, and soyou're proceeding with mindfulness and consciousness around how
to work. And also I knowthat because I've been reflect enough. You
know who is not always reflecting ontheir social media use. But I'm curious

(25:27):
for you how that has related tolike you're taking care of you? How
are you taking care of your socialmedia participation these days? And do you
have like a philosophy around that rightnow? I think it varies. But
the May before I opened my privatepractice, So I opened it in the

(25:52):
September, and the May I tookthe month off of social media and really
was intentional out being present. AndI think that that was really important and
necessary to kind of shut out allthe outside noise. Yeah, and to
just kind of come back sort ofto my roots and sort of how my

(26:18):
whole journey of feeling started. Andthat was with a very basic mindfulness practice,
and that was with slowing down andreally soaking up the beauty of nature
and then noticing kind of I don'thave the I don't know if I would

(26:42):
say it's the energy or the inclination. It just doesn't always feel in alignment
to be doing what the algorithm sayswe should do. So, you know,
sort of again that whole idea ofseeing some people that you know are
pumping out a lot of content everysingle day, and I kind of oscillate

(27:04):
between Oh, I have something Ithink that's valuable to say, and I'll
you know, have someone like yourselfthat will share to me. Oh that
was beautiful, I'm so glad youshared that, and then other times I'm
like, oh, I don't wantto contribute to the information overload, right,
I really want What I really wantis for people to to trust in
their own inner wisdom, in theirown yeah, their their own path,

(27:30):
right. And so one of thethings I do try to do is when
I write my blog, which Ialso record an audio version, is I
try to make like it not toolong, and half of it is really
an opportunity to kind of do amindfulness and a self reflect process. So

(27:53):
I try to ask questions that getyou to connect to you know, what,
to your truth? What are youneeding or what is this reminding you
of and I try to be reallymindful about coming from it from sort of
a trauma and formed place in thesense that inviting people to close their eyes
and to tune inward can be triggering. So there's so much out there,

(28:18):
you know, guiding and directing usto do that, but not necessarily with
the awareness of what impact that hadfor people. So I really want people
to know that you need to dowhat feels comfortable for you. And if
that is to leave your eyes open, if that is to you know,
get up and walk around, ifthat is to take a break, if

(28:41):
that is to not do it atall, if that is you know,
like it's that piece is really important. And I worry sometimes with social media
therapy. Even though you know,everyone says when they put the content out
there, this is not therapy.The thing is people are using it almost
as a placement for therapy, andthe problem with that is that it doesn't

(29:07):
hold their unique context, right,So just because it's worked for one person
doesn't necessarily mean it'll work for them. And also too, it depends on
what nervous system state that we comeinto when we're consuming that content as to
how much we're going to get outof it, and you know, are
we going to be able to actuallyapply what we're learning, because there's a

(29:32):
difference between you know, being inspiredand then actually taking the action and being
able to move through without getting stuckback into you know, those old patterns,
right. And I think nowadays there'sso much loneliness that people are feeling
and disconnection that having someone that actuallygives you that undivided attention, you know,

(29:59):
that give from real presence and listening. I remember you were sharing with
that that interview that you did withthe man around leadership and presently right,
Like that is such a gift thatI think so many people are craving,
especially especially moms and caregivers that aredoing everything for everyone else, right,

(30:21):
it's like what about me? Likethey can almost start to feel invisible,
and you know, their needs don'tmatter, you know, they don't matter,
right, And we see that withthe rise in mental health struggles and
burnout for women, not just newmoms, but moms of middle school children

(30:44):
as well. I'm just here right, like, say more, I'm listening,
Just press play and I don't haveto say anything, you know.
Yeah, there's so many places Iwanted to just like double click on you.
I hear people saying, let's doubleclick on that. I'm like,
oh my god, what's going onwith our languaging? You know, like

(31:08):
it does make sense like double click. I know what you're talking about,
But I feel like I'm riding thewave of like I don't know, entering
this AI universe, you know,even though double clicking is not AI.
But do you know what I mean? How do I come back to nature?
I'm not going to double click onthat. I'm just gonna pause and
like inquire onto what you just said. But double click, just you know,

(31:30):
is a quick wave of do youever use that term double click?
I want to double click on something? I don't, But I mean,
I'll have clients that when they're talkingabout conversations they've had with somebody, they
start doing this as they're talking,right, because it's like that's how so
much of our communication is happening nowadays, Like this meaning I'm double clicking,

(31:52):
like like texting, Oh texting,okay, yeah, so of course we
know the problem with texting is thatyou miss all the body like it right,
You missed the facial expression, youmiss the tone of voice, you
miss all like what is it?Eighty percent is non verbal, right,
and so we miss that and areand our children and are growing Yeah,
I mean not knowing. You know, if we are not actively coaching them,

(32:15):
they're missing out on vital communication skills. Yeah. I feel like,
well, on like a more youknow, superficial level, like I've been
spending more time well not necessarily,but I'm on LinkedIn and having you there,

(32:38):
it feels like, oh, Ijust gained such an important friend and
fellow journey woman on this path,you know, And it just feels like
it's so nice to have you there. And I feel like your presence on
Instagram was very prominent for me,and I know that you have taking a

(33:00):
back seat from there. And Idon't know why I'm centering social media,
but I think that's just the waythat I relate with you and to you.
And so when I see you onLinkedIn, I feel like there's a
different not posture, but there's somethingthat feels different about your presence there.
You know. It's like I'm here, this is what I'm offering, and

(33:21):
I'm here to help and this ishow I can support and it's just nice
to see, Oh, thank you. Yeah, I have to Really,
I think it's really important that wepay attention to how we're feeling on different
platforms and give ourselves permission, evenif we are running a business, give

(33:44):
ourselves permission to take those breaks.You know, as a mutual friend business
coach Celeste for not right, whenyou listen to your soul, that sometimes
means she know, she'll take monthsoff of social media yet, but then
when she comes back, she comesback with this renewed sense of energy,

(34:04):
right, and people feel it,and you know she doesn't lose anybody out
of it. So I think sometimesthere's that fear that if I'm not on
all the time, you know,I'm going to I'm going to lose followers
or whatever it is, right.And one of the things that you know,
especially if we are running a business, is like, well, what
is that return of investment of ourtime? Right? What is the impact?

(34:30):
Because the way the algorithms are setup is that it can be very
disheartening, right. And that's partof why I pulled back from Instagram was
that I part of me was like, Okay, I know what I have
to say is important and valuable,but people aren't seeing it. And so

(34:52):
I was starting to resent just puttingthe time and the energy and the effort
into putting that out there. Andyou know, I know they say,
well one for and you know makesit and yes, agreed. And at
the same time, I think,you know, like it's funny because you
were saying in the book one ofthe things that Eve talks about is this

(35:15):
sort of misconception that women have aninfinite amount of time, right, and
so you know men have a finiteamount of time, yes, And so
because we've kind of been socialized tobe these multitaskers, to you know,
be constantly thinking about a thousand differentthings while we're you know, doing various
things, that it's kind of likejust this expectation, well, this is

(35:37):
just one more thing that I haveto keep doing and keep doing, keep
doing. And I do definitely feelbetter when I am off of social media,
because I think part of it is, you know, as a sensitive
person, as I prefer I lovemy virtual clients because I can reach people

(35:57):
outside of my region and there's aconnection there that's different from social media.
I have had, you know,like with yourself and other people. I've
had really deep and meaningful conversations throughDMS, right, But this just the
sharing, putting content out there.I don't know, it doesn't it doesn't

(36:21):
align for me as as much.So I'm grateful to platforms like the Gotman
Institute where I can share and knowthat it's reaching you know, a much
wider audience. Right. That isreally wonderful because then I can do like
I can focus on what I enjoydoing and what I'm good at, which
is the writing part, and thenthey do the marketing part, right,

(36:43):
which is that's great, not whatI'm good at, or also like you
need that's another hat to wear,right, Okay, I want to get
to the your the Gotment article thatI love that you wrote. I mean,
you've written a few and I'm justgoing to reference one, but you
can pull in any you want thatyou want obviously before we get to that.

(37:05):
And even though like our time islike, oh my god, having
even looked at my notes, whatabout you? What's wrong with life?
Boys walking while offering psychotherapy? Idon't know if you want to speak to
that for a minute, but I'mvery curious about that and also the impact
of the pandemic. I don't knowif you want to just say a little
bit about that. I know,I see it in myself. I see

(37:29):
it in my children, I seeit in my clients. I still I
feel like, you know, Iusually say like we're recovering from the pandemic,
like let's say my husband and Iand our family or you know,
I'll speak for us or me,but I'm just curious, you know,
what you're feeling. And to thatpoint also, and to the point of

(37:49):
social media, I could just speakfrom my own experience that, you know,
I often feel very porous, particularlythese days a little more, which
is already like off the charts.And so I do enjoy social media.
I do enjoy the benefits, butthere's also the cons and I do feel
like I'm really needing to be moredisciplined about the scrolling and about what I'm

(38:09):
taking in and who I'm taking inand why I'm taking it in, and
so of course it's a continuous process, but I'm trying to be a little
more diligent about that because I'm justnoticing the deleterious effects, you know.
So having said that, yes,like impacts of the pandemic walking through psychotherapy,

(38:32):
and I'm just going to keep stackingthose questions, which is something you
shouldn't do as a coach, butI'm not coaching right now. Ok oh
yeah. I think one of themost important things to remember when it comes
to the pandemic is that we're stillin it, right, Like people are
still getting sick, right, Organizationsthat are you know, working with a

(38:57):
higher risk population are still experiencing outbreaks. So even though like the symptoms of
verity may you know, be alot lessened, it's there's there's still potential
threatned danger out there, right,So that's in our nervous system, isn't
do you know if it's started interrupted, Like, are we still at the

(39:19):
pandemic state? Like is it notendemic? Do you know, like it
is still declared pandemic or I yeah, that I don't know exactly. Do
you know that restrictions are coming down, But from a perspective of like the
virus itself, right, it hasn'tgone away. So our family just got
it in February, and I knowa lot of people, you know,

(39:42):
more recently, so even though itwas three years ago that this started,
I know still here. Yeah,people have long COVID people. Of course,
the you know, the losses areright, and then of course there's
not just the the impact of thephysical, but there's you know our society,
right, yeah, huge inflation ratesand food and housing, insecurity and

(40:06):
increase of mental health and addiction,hate crimes, you know, all these
things that were heightened, gender basedviolence, We know these things were heightened
during that. And it's I thinkif it's we want to you know,
we want to get back to quoteunquote normal as much as possible. We

(40:27):
want to do that for our childrenand what have you. But I hope
that we can also be looking at, you know, well, what can
we be doing differently as a society, right, And let's start individually,
let's start as a family. Whatcan we be doing differently so that you
know, we didn't just go throughall of this to just go right back

(40:51):
to where we were right. Andthe other piece is, because there's still
that potential threat there, some peoplehaven't even begun to process, right what's
happened. Right, We have tobe feeling safe in order to do that
processing work. So if we're notfeeling safe, sometimes, like with a

(41:13):
lot of parents, it was focusedwas on the children and making sure that
the children are okay. So they'restarting to notice that they're more tired,
or that they're more irritable, orthat they're just feeling you know, kind
of just going through the motions,right, and that might be an indication
that you know, you did anawesome job. We're there for your kids

(41:35):
or your partner, your clients,what have you? What about you?
Right? Have you had an opportunityto greet, to be angry, to
have to try to make sense ofwhat this all means? And again,
what is the potential invitation or opportunitywithin this crisis? Right? I think

(41:58):
that piece, you know, isreally important. And then also what keeping
an eye on our children and ouryouth, even if they seem okay,
right, like continuing to just checkin and see how you're doing. Right,
especially with young people that you knowtend to be more pleasers, tend

(42:22):
to you know, be more kindof amicable or agreeable. Right, they
might they we don't want them tobe carrying that alone by themselves, right,
for fear that they're burdening us.Right, We're seeing how stressed we've
been and don't want to put thaton us. Right. We want to

(42:44):
keep you know, giving them thoseopportunities to have healthy ways to move through
those emotions and to see if thereis a need, you know, for
more specific support because their mental healthis really suffered. So I don't think
it's an either or, and youknow, we shouldn't say kids are resilient

(43:05):
and therefore, you know, bein this state of heightened anxiety about children
and their mental health. I dobelieve children are resilient. We can foster
that resilience in them, and weneed to be mindful and be checking in
with them, and you know,not that we need to spend every waking
moment with them, but to havethose quality connections where they do feel safe

(43:30):
to share about their inner world rightand what they're needing. I wanted to
double click on so many things forpeople listening that are feeling like, oh,
I'm noticing something in my child oryou know, something in me that

(43:51):
I'm tired or whatever you spoke totheir resonating with. Do you have like
is it go reach out to atherapist? Is it like what is it
that you used to just yeah,I mean I did an interview actually with
my sister a while back, andI talked about some really specific kind of

(44:13):
symptoms or warning signs to look outfor in your young people. So maybe
we can link that one, andhe also has some suggestions with regards to
she's a nutritionist, so from thatperspective as well. I also have some
free resources on my website that aregeared towards supporting nervous system health and then

(44:37):
also connecting to you know, yoursort of inner wisdom right to see like
I am I honoring what I needright, So those things and then links
to different articles that I've written.But I think the thing with therapy,
sometimes people think they need a diagnosis, or they need a doctor referral,

(44:59):
or they need to wait till thingsget really bad. And I always try
to, you know, let peopleknow that there's no prerequisite for it,
like you don't have to meet certaincriteria in order to, you know,
to order to access that support.And sometimes it's wonderful to have those rich

(45:22):
friendships where you can be vulnerable andyou can share openly with your friends.
But sometimes there's things that have happenedto us, or there's experiences from our
attachment that make it hard for us, you know, to be vulnerable in
that way or to trust that youknow, the people are going to be

(45:45):
there for us, and so wehold back or we feel like we have
to put on the facade, andso sometimes therapy can be really helpful in
order to strengthen your your relationships andyour trust in other people, because you
know, what I always say isit's a temporary relationship. You know.
Part of what we're doing is helpingyou to have a better relationship with yourself

(46:07):
because you're with yourself for the restof your life, right and then also
helping you to get more of whatyou need from the people currently in your
life, or to identify better whatyou need so you can attract more people
that can give you what you needif the people currently in your life are
not healthy more unable to support youin that way. And sometimes it's like

(46:30):
I don't know what I'm feeling orwhy. I just know that I'm not
feeling good, and so maybe somebodycan help me identify and work on that
and feel safe in my body,you know, like if anything for me,
the pandemic just highlighted that's very familiar. Feeling unsafe, you know,

(46:51):
that is in my bones, youknow, and just manifest in different ways
or shows up with certain you know, tendencies to anxiety or whatnot. And
I couldn't highlight more of the importanceof having a therapist. You know,
having access to it often is anissue for people. So you know,

(47:15):
it's just something for me that hasfacilitated greater mental health, you know,
So thank you for your work.And I'm sure people listening like, how
can I speak to Nicole? Shewould be perfect. One more thing,
Okay, so there's the walking therehaving gone to the Division of Labor,

(47:37):
and also your recent certification. Ibelieve it is as a compassionate care professional
no compassion fatigue, compassion fatigue forcaregivers, right yeah, wow, yeah,
so walking for me, walking,You're stay on track, Julie.

(48:00):
I need movement like you. Ineed movement to be at my best.
And so after having some physical injuries, really realizing how important that was.
And also, you know, whenwe are feeling unsafe or in heightened stress
or threats, whether that's physical oremotional, you know, many of us

(48:22):
can go into that sort of freezemode where everything you know is like stiff
and tight and shut down. Somovement is really good for that, right
I. Also, you know,there's also tons of benefits you know in
the research about being outside, beingin nature for us, not just the
physical health benefits, but also theemotional the mental health benefits, right,

(48:44):
and so it's almost like nature actsas another coregulator. And yeah, it's
interesting too. It sort of feelslike I have an extra like an extra
partner in the in the work youknow that I'm doing. And I've had

(49:04):
some clients that were very disconnected fromfrom their bodies, you know, had
been more of that in that freezemode or we're feeling really agitated, and
you know, the walking as wetalked, you know, to helped with
so much of that grounding and thatyou know, finding safe ways to come

(49:25):
back into the body. Right,because the other side of that is that
we do we just we we disconnect. We now we shut ourselves off,
We find ways to avoid or escape, and then we miss all that vital
information that our body has to offerus, right, that is that our
emotions have to offer us. Andjust as a segue to the division of

(49:47):
labor piece, right, like women'sanger is giving us such vital information when
things aren't fair, right, whenthings aren't being divided equally, when we're
doing too much, right, we'renot we're not having any time to take
care of ourselves or meet our ownneeds. Right. The problem is is
if we're disconnected, if we're stuffing, if we're numbing because of various reasons.

(50:14):
Right, So it's not our fault, but there's lots of different reasons
why we do this as women.Then either we you know, we sort
of suffer in silence and that resentmentbuilds up and there's disconnection from our partners.
We're not able to be as presentwith our children because we're agitated or
annoyed with them. We're more atrisk for burnout, right, We're more

(50:38):
at risk for our relationships breaking down. Right, And I'm thinking, I
don't know if you saw. Ididn't actually see the whole clip, but
the recent TikTok video of the momit went viral and she was talking about
how she was so busy packing foreverybody else for a vacation, she forgot
to pack for herself for her trips, and you know, just this anger,

(51:02):
this rage about moms being last.And so my mission is to help
liberate moms, women from perfectionism andthe pressure to do it all because I
feel like those are the two sortof big ways that women are socialized,

(51:27):
and you know, we internalize inthis patriarchal culture, that it's our responsibility
to take care of everybody else andwe are expected to live up to these
impossible expectations. And so how wefree ourselves and ultimately our families, because
it doesn't just patriarchy doesn't just hurtus. It hurts our partners, our

(51:51):
male partners, it hurts our children. Right. I keep thinking, I
have a son, and I'm like, he said, have a partner one
day, and I want her orhim to like me. I want them,
you know, I think about that, right, Or he's going to
have a roommate one day, orhe's going to have call you know,
he's going to have coworkers one day, right, And so what we model

(52:13):
and what I invite him, theresponsibility I invite him to take on is
you know, it's there's a rippleeffect of that, right. So when
I think about you know, Ithink about compassion fatigue, which is slightly
different from burnout in the sense thatit's more people who are in helping professions.

(52:38):
So there's similar elements to burnout,but then there's also that often that
secondary trauma because of what we're beingexposed to, what we're hearing, what
we're seeing so frontline workers, healthcareworkers, therapists, you know, social
workers, people that are exposed tothe trauma working with high risk populations,

(53:02):
right, teachers. Whereas you canwork for a corporation and you can experience
burnout and you know, have thatdepletion and lose that interest kind of in
what you're doing or feel like you'remaking a difference, but you don't also
have essentially the the trauma symptoms tokind of go along with that, right,

(53:24):
and you don't have your your worldview discordant. So so because of
the work that I've done, Ihave experienced both the secondary trauma and the
burnout, so having that capasite fatigue. So when I saw that opportunity to
to really specialize in that, thatreally spoke to me. And what I

(53:45):
loved about the program that I tookwas that she was actually a meditation teacher
and was very much sharing things thatI essentially already learned, but she was
sharing the research behind it to saythat, yes, we know that this
is effective in helping to increase resilienceand to be able to buffer against you

(54:07):
know, the impacts of doing thiswork. So it just really affirmed what
I was already doing and then addedto the toolbox. That's amazing. I
was I don't know if it wasChristine Carter or Kelly mcgonagal. So it
happened to be with her the program. No, it was through uh PESSI

(54:28):
And I think I think her nameis don't quote me. I think it's
Deborah Alvrez. But okay, what'sPessy. I don't know what that is.
Oh. So they're connected to thepsychotherapy Networker. They provide a lot
of training for mental health professionals.Yeah, at a reasonable rate, and

(54:49):
it's self directed. Okay, nice, Well for yeah, I find the
Yeah, the research. I meanthough, I've just skimmed the surface around
compassion fatigue and you know the andhow that shows up, you know,
physiologically and the body is so fascinatingand I love hearing you talk about it.

(55:12):
I'm also looking at the time andI'm thinking, like, do we
do a part two? I'm justthrowing this out here, like I know,
time is so precious, and justto get us to do here was
like months right to arrive. I'vedone a poor job at like fulfilling our
mission of or so I thought itwas the mission of like, let's talk

(55:35):
about this book, let's talk aboutyour Gootman article and unpack it. I
think you touched on it, butwhat do you how do you feel about
coming back for like thirty minutes?Is that even possible? Forty five minutes?
And we can talk about like compassion, fatigue and also related to I
mean, I'm curious about that,like as a practitioner myself, but also

(55:57):
in terms of people I know whoor caregivers, family members and friends,
and also the division of a laborcomponent. Imagine if you said no,
like I just exactly. And atthe same time, I'm like, I've
in terms of like having compassion formyself. I'm trying to just flow with

(56:20):
the podcast and I haven't been bookingany guests for the most part because it's
just something else. It just addsanother layer of like production and preparation,
and so when I show up,I'm just like, oh, I'm just
gonna show up and do me.But as I was preparing to meet you,
I also feel excitement because I lovewhat you bring and who you are,

(56:42):
and it's like, yeah, Iwant to share and I want to
do it. So it's like walkingthat fine line. So but I am
intentionally and consciously inviting you back soonso that we can continue, and so
I don't let the listeners down,but I also want to respect your time,
So I know I would I wouldlove to. I mean, I've
always had a dream of having myown podcast, and what always holds me

(57:05):
back is is tech. I getvery overwhelmed. I try to figure out
all the different you know, thedifferent things involved. So one of the
things actually that I try to thinkabout is like, how can I simplify
right? And I was actually listeningto Caitlin Curtis's beautiful new book, Living

(57:29):
Resistance, and I read it.One of the things that she was talking
about was an Instagram series that shedid during the pandemic, and I thought,
I've done I've done interviews on Instagrambefore, and maybe that's how I

(57:50):
use it, like as a conversationalpiece, right, and as a way
of not over complicating things and alsonot doing it at all because you know,
of because I think that's a bigthing too, for when as highly
sense of people, we can sometimesoverthink things, right, to worry so

(58:13):
much about how everything is going towork out, how it's going to affect
everybody. I think it's as momsand caregivers, when you're already feeling stretched
so thin, and as we cantalk ourselves out of doing something for ourselves
or something that we feel a pulltowards because it can feel like it's too
hard or it's too much, youknow. And I used to always say,

(58:35):
when my kids were younger, Ifelt like I had one foot on
the gas and one foot on thebrakes. Like I knew that there was
other things that I wanted to do. There was other ways I wanted to
express myself besides the work that Iwas doing for the agency at the time.
But I just I couldn't see howI could fit it in because I

(59:00):
was, you know, I wasliving that lie of I have to put
everyone else first. I have todo everything for everyone else. My needs
are at the bottom of the prioritylist. And when I started to make
that shift in terms of carving outsome time for myself in the morning and

(59:21):
carving out a little bit time,and that's what it was. It was
little pockets here and there so thatit felt manageable, it felt doable,
you know. That's that's what ledto me developing this desire to write and
to reach more people. And Imean I can't count now how many articles
I've written between the Agency blog andyou know, my own and various things

(59:45):
and what have you. And sometimesI'm surprised, you know that, it's
like, oh, I still haveall these ideas, right because it do
we worry we're going to run outof ideas? Right? Yeah? Exactly.
But anyway, just like you titledprobably like fifteen articles in this conversation
like that, like you know,all the double clicking right right about that?

(01:00:07):
And that's the thing, like Ithink, because I I am a
therapist, I am more of aconversationalist. So I do like to write,
but writing sometimes is a very tedious, time consuming process because it's like
trying to get it just right andprobably editing it a little too much,
a little bit of my perfectionism comingin there. So yes, So love

(01:00:29):
story short, love having conversations.Love. If in any way what we're
sharing resonates with other people and thatyou know, has a ripple for them
and for the people that they loveand care about, then it's absolutely worth
my time for sure. Okay,Well, I'm thinking of some ideas for

(01:00:51):
your podcast, like you could callit double click on this and like what
if you had a prompt, notsaying you need my ideas or anything,
but like, podcasts don't have tobe long, right, that could be
twenty minutes, thirty minutes to usewords simplify, like if you had to
prompt from like a client or somebodyout there, you know, in the

(01:01:13):
in the universe of social media askingyou a question and then you respond like
dear Nicole, you know, kindof thing or just something because I feel
like you're so like I just sprinklein one word and then you're off,
you know, so you're off tosomething magical. Anyways, just some thoughts
so that you can get your podcastsout there if that's what you want to

(01:01:35):
do. Anyways, you have togo. I have to go. It's
seven minutes past the hour. I'vegone over and I want to thank you.
So we'll do a part two.We'll fit it into our schedules.
Stone Yeah, okay, I'll sendyou some times. But for those listening
to this part one, where canthey find you? So at Peace and

(01:01:59):
Possibility That is sort of a handlethat I have for Facebook and Instagram and
then Peace and Possibility dot c Ais my website and LinkedIn I'm just in
under my name, but you canalso find the link to that on my
website. That's probably easiest. Ihave the link to my Gottman Blog articles,

(01:02:19):
so I have an author page thereand then you can read any of
those. I also have under thefree resources on my website. I have
different guides as well as articles thatthat I've written, our podcast interviews that
I've done. So yeah, lotsof lots of ways to lots of resources.
And if people are not in theprovince of Ontario, Canada, can

(01:02:42):
they still work with you on somein some way. So I cannot provide
the therapy component. But if Ihave, like I did in the past,
a virtual kind of coaching program aroundperfectionism, So if I'm doing something

(01:03:04):
like that, then yeah, thatcan that can be opened up. And
I am going to be doing somethingin collaboration with the Goltman Institute actually around
mindfulness, so that's coming up inearly May, so so I don't know
if there'll be more of those,but yeah, there's different different ways that
way. And then for people thataren't in in Ontario, there's psychology today.

(01:03:30):
There's the colleges, so the SocialWork College, the Psychotherapy college in
you know, in your area.Those are good ways, and then or
you can check to see what youremployer might have as far as employee assistance
program where they might be linked toa specific provider. A right, good

(01:03:51):
point. Well, thank you forsharing all those resources. Thank you for
your time, thank you for showingup here in well in person, you're
not here, but you're there andwe're both looking at each other, which
is nice. So I will bein touch. I'm going to send you
an email today with what might bepossible for a part too. Thank you
for your willingness. Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me,

(01:04:13):
and thank you to everyone. Ihope where you are the sun is shining.
The sun is finally shining where Iam, and that is such a
treat. So even just getting outand standing in the sunshine for a minute
is you know, is so good. And we can start with those small
things to start caring for ourselves andmove us a little bit higher on that

(01:04:38):
priority list and that will help withthe recovery. Yeah, it's a bomb
for my soul to hear you.So thank you, Nicole. Oh,
thank you, Julie, Hie,everyone, bye U, thank you everyone

(01:11:36):
for listening. It's been a littlebit of touch and go here with my
power electricity because we're having some unpleasantweather like hail and freezing rain, and
I keep losing connection. So I'mgoing to wrap this up quickly to make
sure that I get everything covered andsaved so that I don't lose this.

(01:12:01):
And thank you so much for tuningin. I value you and your time
and your commitment to yourself and tothe people who you live with. If
there are people that you live with, little people, big people, people
with four legs or not people withfour legs, but animals with four legs,
perhaps creatures, furree creatures, maybeto the people that you impact far

(01:12:27):
and wide close at home. Thankyou for being you and for your commitment
to yourself. Thanks for tuning intoJulian Conversation. I'll be back with part
two with Nicole Shiner. Let usknow what you've gained. Share this with
your friends and family, Share thison social media so that people can benefit
and feel support for who they arewhat they need in this world to thrive.
Wishing you the best. May youlet your intuition lead and cheers. W
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