Part 2 with Nicole Schiener- Caring without Carrying It All.

Nicole Schiener on 'Caring without Carrying it All' in conversation with Julie Cusmariu on the Julie in Conversation podcast.

More of what we talked about in Part 2 of our conversation.
-Women are socialized to devalue their time. @17:45 mins
and we explored one the rules described in Eve Rodsky's book, FAIR PLAY ( A Game-Changing Solution for When You Have To Much To Do): Rule #1-ALL TIME IS CREATED EQUAL and how we have existed inside a construct in which men's time is treated as finite but women's as infinite.
-What might equity in relationship look like.
-Tips and insights on raising our kids to honor time and responsibility. Including at what age we may expect kids to start making their own lunches and cleaning their rooms.
We spoke to the invisible work, the mental load, the emotional labour and all that shows up in a day's work (and that's outside of the work we get paid for).
And much more with some levity and warmth.


"We expect women to work like they don't have children and raise children like they don't have work." Amy Westervelt. Quote shared in 'FAIR PLAY'.

You can WATCH this episode on You Tube.


Nicole Schiener
Nicole Schiener is an Award Winning Registered Psychotherapist in Ontario Canada. She's a Certified Gottman Bringing Baby Home Educator and regular contributor to the Gottman Blog. As part of her recovery from burn out, Nicole became a Certified Compassion Fatigue Professional facilitating wellness workshops to other helping professionals.

Nicole is passionate about fostering healthy relationships at home and work and is on a mission to liberate mothers from perfectionism and the pressure to do it all. A proud mom of teens, she loves reading memoirs and being in Nature. Visit her website ( https://peaceandpossibility.ca)

Listen to Part 1 here.
https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/nicole-schiener-on-caring-without-carrying-it-all-part-1-of-2/id310513252?i=1000607591491
Or WATCH part 1.
https://youtu.be/ZFvn406cpGA

About Julie in Conversation
Julie Cusmariu is a Certified Professional Coach, Certified Mentor Coach, Experienced Facilitator, Intuitive Consultant and Podcast Host and Producer with over 16 years of experience in the field of coaching, healing, and transformation. Julie supports leaders and change makers trust their intuition, honour the wisdom of their body and use their voice for change. Julie supports individuals in making better decisions, gain clarity and lead with meaning and purpose. Julie is also a media consultant for international film, TV, and podcast productions on networks such as CBC, Arte, TVO, TFO, Audible. For over 12 years Julie has been interviewing thought leaders and bestselling authors on her widely listened to podcast 'Julie in Conversation’,a podcast dedicated to individual and collective healing and change. Julie works with individuals, groups and organizations worldwide. Julie is pulled by curiosity and fuelled by passion and is both fascinated and humbled by the human experience, daily. www.JulieinConversation.com

Episode Transcript

(00:16):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Juliein Conversation. Today's Wednesday, Hereril twenty
sixth, twenty twenty three. Soglad to be here with you today to
share with you my conversation, Parttwo of my two part series in Conversation
with Nicole Shiner, Award winning registeredpsychotherapist who resides in Ontario, Canada.

(00:37):
Where are you today? Where doyou reside? Where are you sitting?
Where are your feet touching the ground? I am in Montreal, Canada,
so called Canada and Montreal, whichis the land which is unseeded, And
I'm recognizing and acknowledging those who arethe stewards of the line and who've enabled

(01:00):
me to be where I am todayor to be on the land that I
can call Montreal, acknowledging the landof the gag Nahogi had Nation, acknowledging
the people who came before me myown ancestry, and living into the question
of who has come before me?Who are my people? Who are the

(01:23):
people who I don't know who areand who have created this place, this
land, these buildings, this homethat I live in that I am privileged
to be breathing and living in,and this ground that I touch and connect
to each day, the trees thatsurround me, and so just giving a
tribute to all that surrounds me thatI can see, that I can feel,

(01:49):
that I can touch. And sowhat are you acknowledging today? Who
are you acknowledging? And may youacknowledge yourself? What are you acknowledging in
yourself today? Right now, inthis moment I see you, I acknowledge

(02:10):
you, whether we have met orwe have not. I extend this invitation
for you to receive what it isyou need to receive and what it is
you didn't even know you needed.May you benefit from this conversation that I
will share today and from these podcaststhat I bring to you. It's always
a perfect and right time to betuning in. So thank you for being
here. Welcome back to those whoare coming back, and welcome to new

(02:32):
listeners. You can reach out tome at julianconversation dot com. Let me
know what you're gaining from these conversations. You can find me on social media
at Julie Kizmaru cus m a rIU. I'm on Instagram, Facebook,
LinkedIn, So let me know thatyou're listening. Let me know what you're
taking with you or receiving as insight, and please subscribe to the podcast anywhere

(02:55):
you listen to your podcasts pod ApplePodcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Subscribe,
share a review or leave a review. Share this with your friends,
family, clients, people that youknow will benefit, and thank you in
advance for doing so. It reallyhelps propagate the message that I'm sharing that
the people who I invite on aresharing. So thank you for being here

(03:19):
with me. Right now, I'mgoing to share a quick clip of my
first conversation with Nicole, and thenI'll take you into the conversation that we
had. I'm just looking to seewhere that clip is. I thought that
I had correctly saved it, butI didn't, so just give me one

(03:44):
quick second. That's not it either, So just give me one second,
but let me read to you inthe meantime. Nicole's biography. She's an
award winning registered psychotherapist in Ontario.She's a certified Gotman Bringing Baby Home educator
and regular contributed to the Gotman Blog. As part of her recovery from burnout,

(04:09):
and Nicole became a certified Compassion Fatigueprofessional facilitating wellness workshops other helping professionals.
She's passionate about fostering healthy relationships athome and work, and is on
a mission to liberate mothers from perfectionismand the pressure to do it all.
A proud mom of teens, sheloves reading memoirs and being in nature.
Visit her website Please do at Peaceand Possibility dot ca. Peace Peace and

(04:31):
Possibility dot ca. And on thispart two of the conversation will be you'll
hear us talking about the hidden costsof doing it all and what happens to
our identity as women, as mothers, as primary caregivers. I want to
just also preface us to say,of course, my conversation is coming through

(04:55):
the lens of who I am,a white cisgendered woman, and so the
ro sexual normative is present in thisconversation. So if you're in a same
sex marriage, whether you identify orhowever you it is, however you identify,
just honoring the identity that you haveand sensitive to the fact that there
are many identities and identifications as aprimary and primary parent and whoever you are

(05:21):
as the dominant caregiver. In thisconversation, we refer to the relationship between
male and female man and women.I mean that is the relationship that I
have, and so just honoring alliterations, possibilities and existing identities that exist

(05:42):
within relationships. And also if there'sa single parent family as well, So
just letting you know that, welcomingyou into this conversation and may you feel
received as well. I just wantto find that little clip that I had,
so in doing so, maybe justwant to invite you to take a

(06:02):
breath. Notice your feet, noticeyour shoulders, noticing your breath as it's
entering into your body and exiting yourbody. I think I found it.

(06:26):
I know I didn't find it,okay, So I'm just going to put
on some music so I could findit. It just feels like a good
precursor to this conversation, and thenI'll press play on the conversation that I
had with Nicole Shiner. Here ismy the clip that I wanted to play

(07:50):
you as a preemptive audio to thefull conversations from our part one conversation a
couple of weeks ago. My missionis to help liberate moms, women from
perfectionism and the pressure to do itall, because I feel like those are
the two big ways that women aresocialized, and you know, we internalize

(08:13):
in this patriarchal culture that it's ourresponsibility to take care of everybody else and
we are expected to live up tothese impossible expectations. And so that was
from part one of our conversation.I'm going to put on the second part
of our conversation where we unpack moreof that. Okay, here we go.

(08:39):
Welcome back, Nicole, Thank youfor being here and being willing to
come back for part two. Thanksso much for having me. Happy to
see you again second time in twoweeks, exactly a week from yesterday from
today, so today is April mycalendar, April fourth, and we both

(09:03):
recently had birthdays. Happy birthday tous very season. You're an Aries,
I'm a Pisces, and that justfeels important to mention before we get into
the next part of our conversation.So is there anything you're feeling you want
to mention before we get into ourconversation. Not really, I'm great,

(09:26):
grateful, chance grateful to be here, grateful to be grateful to be feeling
better after a little about there ofsickness. And yeah, the body telling
me once again, surrender, surrender, So yeah, soaking up, soaking

(09:48):
up and a lot of actually somebeautiful guided meditations and journeys that Ash of
Frost are our mutual friend. Sheoffers so some that I had already purchased,
and then I found a beautiful oneon on Audible, her new one
through her. I haven't listened tothose yet. Oh so beautiful and so

(10:11):
healing and just really good timing,good timing. Wow, She's so powerful
with her words and her transmission ofenergy. Like in her oracle deck,
maybe I should pick one, MaybeI should pick a card today. It's
over there. Can you see it? Everyone? I'm pointing, let me
just get it, Okay, I'mback. So in her oracle cards,

(10:39):
the writing for each card that youpull, I just feel like it just
it's so enveloping, like her wordsjust bring me to the the scene and
the vision that she's she has andis creating. Should I pull one now?
Sure? Talking about Asha, welove me? Yeah? And those

(11:01):
meditations are are we again? Onthe hay House that she has recently put
out, Yeah, so I Iactually found it on Audible, but able,
I said, you said hay House, but that's yeah, that's that's
the publisher. But you can alsoget it if you have an audible.
So this one was called Indigenous Teachingand Medicine Meditations for Energy Healing. Okay,

(11:26):
and yeah, beautiful, so beautiful, all right, I'm stopping here.
Jingle Dress. Oh I've never pickedthis one before, have you?
No, I haven't either. Miraclesooh, that's exciting beautiful. So this

(11:48):
deck I've spoken about it already before, but the artwork is by Steph Littlebird
and Ash of Frost is the creatorof the Sacred Medicine Oracle. And maybe
I'll just give it a little briefreading Jingle Dress Miracles. During the nineteen
eighteen flu pandemic, a little girlhad fallen deathly ill and was unable to

(12:09):
recover. Her father had a visionof dancers wearing a dress with four rows
of jingling metal bells. And whenthe sick child saw the dance, she
joined in and the medicine poort throughthe movement of her feet, curing her.
Wow, this medicine comes forward toteach you to believe in the possibility
of healing and the existence of miracles. What miracles do you want to call

(12:30):
in at this time? What miracles? I already read that, but I'll
read it again. What miracles doyou want to call in at this time?
The energy around you now is opento bright, brilliant possibilities. If
you could wave a magic wand whatwould you wish for? Your healer,
guides, ancestors and animal spirits aregathering around you to deliver the answers to
your prayers, everything as possible.Just as the little girl was cured by

(12:52):
the medicine of the jingle dress,you too hold the capacity for something equally
as powerful coming to you now.Where in your life do you need miracles
to touch you? You felt stuckor hopeless? There is an opportunity for
your situation to shift in a differentbeneficial direction. Stay open to circumstances changing
from miraculous happenings are here, Nicole. Do you hear that listeners ingles?

(13:18):
So whoever's listening as well, maythis resonate the messages for you as well,
the healing affirmation as I am opento miracles touching my life, and
then I love the sacred ceremony thatshe offers. Done, I won't do
adjusted but just by just me readingit. But I'm going to anyway,
Listen closely and close your eyes envisionyourself at a pow wow where there are

(13:39):
hundreds dancing in jingle dresses. Thispowerful music created by the jingles increases the
vibration of your energy field and opensyou up to all that is possible.
Begin to move your hips, shakeyour shoulders, and gently move from side
to side. As you make morespace in your body, vital healing light
moves through you from head to toe. Open to receive and feel nourishment and

(14:03):
nectar filling your sacred vessel. Youare now vibrating with miraculous energy. Direct
it where it needs to go.Oh, that is so beautiful and it
is a few years ago I starteda little section on my Facebook page called

(14:24):
Miracle Mondays because as somebody who hadstruggled with anxiety and who was hearing a
lot of bad news stories right alot of the the ugly parts that you
know, of what humans are capableof and treating other people, I really
felt how important it was for meto look for the good news stories and
to start to to start to rememberthat, you know, even though we

(14:48):
have challenges or difficulties in our life, things work out and sometimes there's these
unexpected you know, opportunities or synchronicitiesor whatever that happened, right. So
I forget who said it, butsomeone said, like, think of a
miracle in some ways as just ashift in perception right about what is possible.

(15:11):
And so that really supported me becauseif I would find myself in stressful
situations, instead of going to thatkind of anticipatory anxiety, I could kind
of go like, Okay, youknow what, it's going to be.
Okay, it's things are going towork out, Like everything's okay now I'm
safe for whatever. Or if thereis a challenge or difficulty, there's going

(15:33):
to be a lesson here, there'sgoing to be an opportunity, there's going
to be growth or healing or whathave you. And it really helped me
to start to attune to like thegoodness outside and within and in my own
family and just kind of reframe andI what I was noticing and what I

(15:54):
was paying attention to, and Ithink about you know, one of the
things that I like in my compassionfatigue training was about how important it is
for us, especially when we areexposed to a lot of trauma or pain
or sadness because of the work thatwe do or by virtue of our lived

(16:15):
experiences. It is really important.It's not about bypassing the pain, but
we need to we need to havethe beauty and the joy to offset that.
M hyah that just when you werereading about that, that just made
me think about that. And thenthe other piece, of course is you
are dancing and like that dancing,beautiful gift that you that you offer,

(16:37):
So I just that was really neatthat that Yeah, me too. For
us it did feel like as I'mreading it, nothing in me is moving
right now, like inviting us toshake our shoulders. They're like as rigid
as possible, like my feet arestuck on the ground. And it was,
yeah, I do did find thatinteresting that we pulled that one,
or that I pulled it. Andhere you are with me and we share
that love for dance and movement andwe've connected over that. Thank you,

(17:00):
Asha, and please buy her cards, listen to her meditations. There's nothing
like hearing her offering it right likesomething just shifts and happens and very powerful
healer. So part two, herewe are. We're gonna deliver as promised
and we're going to get to youknow, we talked about fair play and

(17:23):
real simple the magazine said, it'sa hands on strategy to divide tasks and
achieve household harmony. And what youwere suggesting that we focus on, which
is great, focus is very good, and it's She has four rules outlined
in the book to create fair playin the household with your partner, if

(17:45):
there is a partner with your children. Is so, there are four rules.
I'm not going to go through allof them, but one of them
that will hone in on is alltime is created equal. All time is
created equal? And so what doesthat mean? Right? Time is being
valued? Whose time is seeing asinfinite like women's versus men's as finite?

(18:08):
How are we socialized? How wedevalue our own time? And so shall
we start from there? Sure?Sure? So I made a note of
what she talks about in terms ofthe four ways that we have been socialized
to devalue our time. One isone way is to think about if we
are making less money than our partners, we can devalue the time that we

(18:32):
have that we're putting into the workthat we do, and therefore we should
be able to do more right outkind of our jobs? Right, yeah,
right? This idea that my jobis more flexible. And it's really
interesting actually, because my husband isin a leadership role where he has female
managers and some of those are parents, and it's really interesting because now he's

(19:00):
seeing that it's really hard if it'sjust the woman that is flexing all our
time to take care of kids whenthey're sick and going into the appointments,
which when ours were little, thatreally did fall on me. And that
was kind of the mindset that weboth sort of bought into, was that,
well, my job was more flexible, I had a bit more sick

(19:21):
time, whatever, but it didtake a toll. It was stressful for
me. I felt guilty about havingto cancel on clients or you know,
trying to figure out who was goingto cover for a group or what have
you. So it's something now thathe's able to see through a different lens.
And I don't I don't have agredge like I don't hold a grudge.
There's lots of ways that we haveequity in our relationship. But it's

(19:44):
great for him now to be ableto see that through, you know.
And I think more especially male managersand female managers really need to recognize that
right that and if they are supportingthat, both supporting the men in taking
more time related to children, someneeds and health and that sort of thing
that is going to help, right, because if there's push back there,

(20:10):
then it becomes really hard and it'seasy to fall back into those ways.
The other one is, you know, often as women, we have kind
of believed this idea that we're bettermultitaskers. Right. There's been some research
about how men's and women's brains areyou know, different, But there's also
a lot of research coming out aboutthe harm of multitasking, you know,

(20:30):
the toll that that takes on usemotionally and physically, and that we actually
are more effective and efficient when wefocus on single tasks. Right. And
the last one in the time ittakes to tell someone I should do it
myself. So this is you know, this is the one where I say,

(20:56):
Okay, yes, you have tomake that investment of time in the
beginning, but it's gonna pay offin the long run, right if we
can, if we can put inthat little bit of extra work, what
we're doing is we're setting things upto be easier right in the long run.
But if we jump in and wesay no, you're doing it wrong
or I can do it better,or you know, especially if we struggle

(21:18):
with perfectionism, well control our controlissues exactly. Then what we do is
not only you know, to bekind of it ends up hurting us in
the long run because we're taking thetask back on. But then we're also
sending the message, whether it's toour partner or to my to our children,
that we don't trust them, wedon't think they're capable or competent,

(21:41):
and so they're not going to stepup and you know, offer to do
those things. They're gonna, oh, okay, sure mom wants to do
it, go for it, takeover, right, So yes, and
that's the thing, right, It'snot our fault that we have internalized these
messages, is right. Like,I mean, we get paid less than

(22:03):
men, So we are being sentthese messages that we are worth less than,
you know, than men. Right. The work that is predominantly been
done by by mostly women tends tobe paid less, right, So we
we internalize that we're fighting against that. Right, so deeply internalized in me

(22:30):
and most in all of it.You know, I could just speak about
my experience, but yeah, thethe all time is created equal just feels
like I can sit with that onefor many weeks, right, Right.
And one of the things that thatI try to do with my kids and

(22:52):
they're older, but I've tried todo this from a younger age is as
they're able to take on more tasks, then when there's things that need to
get done and we also want toplay together, right, we want to
do something fun together. Is thatyou know, reminding them I only have

(23:12):
so much time, I only haveso much capacity. So if we do
this work together, then I'm goingto have time and energy left over to
play nice. But I'm not goingto just keep going going, doing all
the work and then show up andplay out of guilt, because then I'm
like resenting it. I'm not fullypresent. I'm not benefiting from the interaction

(23:36):
in neither are they right, loveless, And this is where, like we
talked about the last time, thisis where our irritability are, frustration,
the anger, right, This iswhere it serves us if we can sit
with it and we can look atwhere is this coming from? For me?
What if I not communicated? Right? Because a lot of times we're

(24:00):
simmering and we're festering all of this, but we haven't really communicated what it
is that you know that's not okay, what it is that is not fair,
what it is that we're needing nice? Can you repeat that again?
What you sit down and tell themabout time? I feel like, yeah,

(24:22):
somewhere I went in and then Ilost it. Sure. Sure.
So my son's really into chests andso he, you know, likes to
play chess with me, and ofcourse ninety percent of the time or more
he wins. Yeah. Nice,So he loves that. But so you
know, okay, so we couldplay a game of chess before dinner,

(24:44):
but then there's things that need toget done for dinner. So inviting him
into some of that, saying hey, if you want to help with chopping,
you know, prepping some of thefood whatever. He generally does the
cleanup after dinner, and he doesit really well and he takes pride in
it now, which is great.So this is kind of extra, this

(25:04):
is bonus. But by helping himto see, hey, if you come
in and you work alongside of me, then there's going to be a potentially
an opportunity for us to have moretime liftover to play, right, and
that you know, that goes forcan go for laundry that you know,
can go for tidying up around thehouse, lots of lots of different things.

(25:30):
And also, I think a bigthing and this is that invisible load,
right, is the planning, right, So the coordinating, the making
lists, right, these are thingsthat often weighs moms down. But again
it's a case of it's invisible,so other you know, other people in

(25:52):
the home aren't realizing what's happening,and so it's frustrating in a way that
we have to be the one tobring it to their attention. But I
think, you know, if wecan think of it as, hey,
this is about honoring a need andultimately lightning a load, right, because
they they're not my readers, andthey can't see what's invisible, And we

(26:17):
say moms, but it's like primarycaregiver, right, right, Yeah,
And for the most part, Imean, we're speaking as moms because that's
who we are. But like,they have this list. Did you see
the list at the back of thebooks, They have cards, right,
there's a card deck. Yeah,so let me just find that. Basically,

(26:41):
it's a hundred cards of fair playand they separated out into five columns,
Home and all the tasks like drylike garbage, groceries, home maintenance,
home purchase, rental, mortgage,insurance, laundry, lawn implants,
mail meals, kids, school,lunch, weekday, dinner, weekday,

(27:03):
breakfast, weekend meals, tidying,all of that out. Then there's out
like birthday celebrations, It goes onextracurricular activities, school breaks, caregiving is
another column, dental doctor's appointments,grooming, friendships and social media, pets,

(27:26):
all of that. Then there's magic, which is holidays, birthday celebrations,
gifts, middle of the night comfort. Should put that under magic,
spirituality, values, and good deeds, and then wild wild, which would

(27:48):
be I guess I'd have to readthe book to know a little bit more.
But anything that's not in the otherfour columns. But they talk about
aging, ailing, parents, death, first year of infants, life,
glitch in the matrix of daily consumption, home renovations, job loss and money
problems, moving new job, seriousillness, welcome with child into the home,
so all these transitions. But justreading through the list like it's exhaustive

(28:12):
and it feels exhausting to read it. But when we're doing it right,
we're doing it and there's that wholeunpaid labor experience of like the planning,
the like I've got to be onlineat eight am on a Tuesday morning to
make sure I get my kid inthe summer camp and if I'm not there
to lose the spot, and withinthirty seconds, there's like two spots left,

(28:33):
and I missed the week that wewanted, Like, how do I
you know, Like, it's yeah, it's a lot of it's a lot
of pressure, right, It's alot of pressure. And one of the
things that is really nice about themaking you know, the invisible visible,

(28:53):
Yeah, and inviting the conversations isyou know, the's talk about I think
it's like seventy or more percent ofour conflicts are perpetual problems, right.
There are things that we're not goingto resolve because we're different individuals, right,
who come from different you know,different backgrounds, different lived experiences.

(29:17):
You know, both the positive memoriesas well as you know, the distressing
or even traumatic memories, and webring that with us into you know,
into our experiences, and so certainthings are triggers for us but not for
our partners. Certain things are associatedas being really positive and really important to
our partners, and maybe it wassomething that wasn't really ever a big deal

(29:41):
or an issue for you know,for our partners. So by coming together
and having these conversations, it's notjust about dividing up the task, but
it actually can be a really beautifulway of deepening connection if we come from
it from that place of I wantto get to know you better. I
get to understand why this matters toyou or why this is something that never

(30:07):
seems like it's right. Yeah,exactly, because instead what happens often and
I and I hear this from clients, you know, and I have had
some experiences in the past, whatI would start to feel is like you
feel that build up, you know, a frustration, resentment, and there's
disconnection that happens with you and yourpartner because you're like, they don't understand,

(30:32):
they don't care about me this,you know, this matters to me,
right and seriously, then that meansI don't matter to them. That's
often a leap that we will make. And that's a really dangerous leap because
you know, obviously that's going tocreate disconnection in our relationships, right,

(30:52):
and then what we're putting out thereto our partners is not really you know,
sort of that invitation, you know, positive kind of energy that makes
them want to be close to us. It's that, you know, it's
that, whether we're conscious of itor not, you know, it can
push them further away. Right.So it's not to say that there's not
legitimacy to our anger, but Ithink it's really important to really get curious

(31:15):
about it because sometimes it is connectedto these earlier experiences and sometimes we might
be projecting that same story or attachmentyou know, experience onto you know,
onto our partners or even onto ourchildren. And so when we have these
conversations and we say like, thisis why it matters to me, this

(31:37):
is what it was like for me, and this is you know, this
is why this is so important,it shifts, right, It shifts that,
Oh, okay, this is thisis not about you know, her
being a neat freak or her naggingor you know, all the all of
the things, right, this isoh wow, this is like this is
what she needs to feel grounded orto feel loved supported, Right, And

(32:01):
it becomes a lot easier and viceversa, you know, with our with
our partners, and then what we'redoing from that is we're okay, so
this is what this is what lifewas like for us growing up. What
of these things do we want tokeep and we want to build on because
they were really beautiful and wonderful andwe want to pass that value onto our
children and our family. And whatif these things were not helpful or even

(32:25):
harmful and that we want to letgo of and so together, you know,
we're creating this news story as afamily, but it's important to look
at like kind of the origins ofthat first, because that's going to influence
water break. I mean, ittakes up, It takes work, conscious

(32:46):
effort, right, yeah, yeah, obviously we know that relationships mm hmmm
worth the effort but requires sincere effort. Yeah yeah. And it's the same
with our children, right if wejump in, you know, too quickly
to take over for them, oryou know, we feel bad for them

(33:07):
because everything they've gone through from thepandemic, right, we're like, oh,
we just want life to be easyand happy, and you know,
we or we want to make upfor all the things that maybe they missed,
and so we over schedule to overcompensate, and we're exhausted, right,
and they are a little bit too. And then they're also sometimes not getting

(33:30):
those opportunities to really feel like theyare contributing to the family, contributing to
the team, which is important fortheir resiliency, right, I mean they
can't. We don't want them togrow up and with a sense of entitlement
and that everybody is going to caterto them because they're gonna have a rude
awakening when they get out there inthe real world. Yeah, thanks for

(33:53):
sharing unpacking that. Yeah, yousaid the word grudge earlier on. I'm
like, yeah, I know aboutthat. My husband's really good at not
holding grudges, like it just somehowslips off of him, which is something
I noticed early on in our relationships, that a relationship that I was very

(34:14):
grateful for, and I could seehow I I don't know that I would
call it grudge, but the festering, you know, guilty of that,
and so you know that doesn't helpme. I'm aware that my emotions are,
you know, indicators of something thatI'm needing to acknowledge and express and
move But yeah, it's forever learningand growing together. And you know,

(34:38):
I'm just looking at my part andmy role and responsibility and how I contribute
to overdoing, you know, andhow like if I did give over,
or why am I not giving over? Or how can I give over because
I'm keeping my partner from experiencing eitherperhaps the pleasure or responsibility that can belong

(34:59):
to him. You know. Sojust looking at all of that has been
always interesting at different phases of theparenting journey you know that we've been on.
So yeah, absolutely, and youknow a lot of us didn't see
healthy conflict, right we you know, not necessarily we saw yelling and screaming

(35:22):
or abuse, although certainly a lotof people did. And so a conflict
gets associated with something that is tobe avoided because it's scary and it's threatening.
Right. But also, you know, when I would ask clients like
what did you see? You know, they often they would say, well,
you know, well they had thoseconversations behind closed doors, right.

(35:45):
We didn't really get to see howthey worked it out. You know,
it either seemed like dad was incharge or yeah, it seemed like you
know, they shared decision making whatever, but we never saw really how they
did that. And it's I thinkit's something that's really important for you know,
for us as parents to be modeling, and you know, like it's

(36:07):
very rare that my husband and Iwill raise our voice. So if we
do get a little bit heated,the kids right away will be like,
you, guys, why you arguing? Da da da? And so I
was joking. So no, we'rejust kind of bantering, right, But
you know, it's important for ourchildren to see us be able to talk
about some of these things and howwe're working it out, how we're listening

(36:32):
to each other with respect, andhow we're getting curious and you know,
tell me more about that, right, and then how we're also you know,
kind of checking in with ourselves.Well, what's this, how's this
making me feel? What's coming upfor me? Can I stay in this
conversation or do I need to takea break? Right, because sometimes it
can be triggering and we can getflooded, and it's better to take a

(36:54):
break in order to calm down,right, to physiologically sooth. Other times,
you know, they can see usmaking a repair, you know,
So if we've had a bit ofa reactive type of response, maybe it's
been a little bit hurtful in howit's come across, we can model that
repair for that, right, Likeyou know and model expressing appreciation and acknowledgement.

(37:20):
And that's something that I think isreally really important, not just for
our children to see, but alsowhat that then, but that then creates
between you know, us and ourpartner in terms of again that increased sense
of connection and and that buffer foryou know, for those challenging or difficult
times. Yeah. I was thinkingas you were talking, if it would

(37:45):
be wonderful to see a role playbetween you and your husband while your kids
are there, you know, justthe way you described it. Wow,
Well that modeling going on, youknow, going. I know you right
about it too, and I alwaysyou know, there's much to glean from
what you share. And you sharepersonal things that not too personal, but

(38:06):
personal and that relates to your familyand your dynamic. That feels helpful.
So yeah, thank you for that. Oh well, you know a great
thing is the family meeting, right, and to give everybody a chance to
kind of go around and to sharelike, well, okay, what do
they feel is going well right?What do they appreciate about each other?

(38:27):
And then what's one thing right?So we want to keep it small.
We don't want to like overwhelm ourkids with all these things. But we
found that was really helpful in termsof some of the areas that we were
feeling like they we needed them tostep up, right, they weren't.
It was becoming like a you know, a point of frustration. It was
becoming you know, like, okay, I'm again carrying that load of reminding

(38:52):
whatever. So then using that thatforum when we're you know, more grounded
and calm and maybe have a littlesnack or something or have something fun planned
afterwards. Yeah, And he waslike, okay, so, how how
can we make this work? Whathas worked in the past, what is
making it hard for you? Howcan I help right? So, you

(39:15):
know, what are some of thethings that need to get done right.
One of the things that I noticedmy son really struggled when it came to
like cleaning his room. He reallyresisted that, and you know, it
would be exhausting sometimes and sometimes hecould get very heightened. And so we
would you know, sort of okay, so how can we break this down?

(39:36):
How can we make this more fun? And so you know, we'd
play music, we'd you know,agree to let's set a timer and you
do it for a certain amount oftime and then you take a break.
And you get to do something fun. Then we come back to it.
Maybe we're going to do some ofit together. We had one game that
we used to play where I wouldI can't remember if it was me or

(39:57):
my husband who thought of it,but we called it flashl clean up,
so we would shine a light onsomething that you know needed to get put
away. It's such a simple thing, right, but part of it was
the fact that there was a connectionpiece there. Right. So again it's
one of those things where you couldsay I don't have time for it.
Is there's so many other things thatyou know need to get done. But

(40:21):
when you make that investment when they'reyounger, then ideally what's going to happen
is that you know they're internalizing someof that. And recently my son went
to town on his room, yeah, and did an amazing job. And
his room is the tidiest room inthat amazing and other than some dirty laundry

(40:46):
that ends up on the floor,he's maintained that and he's really taken pride
in that. So I offer thatas hope. So much effort and love
goes in to the family that you'vecreated. Oh and there was trying times.
Let me tell you there is solike you know, some of this

(41:07):
was born out of what's not working, and we can't keep doing what's not
working, right, So let's let'sall and again, like you said,
like what is what is my parthere? Right? And so it's it's
as much about problem solving together andall being willing and open to make changes,

(41:34):
to set each other up for successand to honor each other's needs.
Yeah. Actually, it makes methink of something you shared with us before
we went into the recording. Whatdoes it mean to be a team?
M hmm, Like if we seethe family unit as a team, right
right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I've really tried to instill that,

(41:58):
you know, from a young age. And I think partly because I had
clients, women that I would workwith, who had teenagers and they had
been doing everything for you know,their kids, and then all of a
sudden, the kids became teenagers,and they were frustrated and resentful because why

(42:20):
weren't the kids stepping up like theywere old enough they should be you know,
they should be doing more, theyshould be contributing. And well,
you know, I could empathize withthese moms because they were tired, right,
and they had bought into that patriarchalmyth of motherhood that we should do
at all. And at the sametime, you know, when we reach
a certain age, we don't youknow, a light bulb doesn't just go

(42:44):
off and say, oh, well, now I'm going to do it.
They're like, no, you knowthey are. If it's working for them,
they're going to keep doing what they'vealways been doing. And they're you
know, they're not gonna feel bador guilty or you know, like so

(43:04):
instilling that I was banking that,nicol My plan is really so instilling that
sense of we're all in this together, we're a team, you know.
And they say, like as littleas three years old, Oh, there
is benefits to getting kids involved indoing you know, doing things to help

(43:28):
out around the house, right anddoing taking some ownership. You know,
my my kids were pretty young whenthey started making their own lunches. I
mean I was there with them tosupervise, but like, how young How
many years am I behind? Yeah, I can't remember. Like, we
do nothing, nobody does anything.We just eat and make a mess.

(43:52):
Now it's like when you say,I know some kids are into making their
lunches pretty early on, Yeah,you kids do like to cook and bake.
Yeah, I mean, okay,so I can't remember exactly. Yeah,
some of it just feels like it'sa bit of a blur. But
just you know, when they startto express an interest. So for anybody

(44:15):
out there that has little ones,when they're starting to express an interest,
that's a great opportunity, right.And I know, like what some parents
will do is they'll put lower levelcabinets and drawers. They'll put like some
of the healthy snacks in the easyto grab snacks and things like that,
right, So that you're promoting someof that independence, but you're also you

(44:37):
know, you're also teaching them that, you know, you can't just take
whatever you want, right, right. My daughter has a bit of a
sweet tooth, so we do.I do tell her, like you have
to check in with me first beforeyou have a snack. And really what
I'm trying to teach her is let'sbe mindful about what you're eating and like

(45:00):
are you hungry and have you satisfiedyour food groups because you know, during
the pandemic, sometimes we were eatingout of boredom or we returning to like
the chips and the sweets and stuffas a way to kind of like,
well, we need some kind oftreat, like you know, where's the
pleasure? Yeah, exactly, Soyou know, we I also realized,

(45:21):
oh my goodness, I've slipped awayfrom some of my mindful eating, right,
and so mindful and eating don't belongtogether, or they do belong,
but they feel very hard to makeit like a coherent you know, parent,
right right, as a parent,you know, yeah, yeah,
And so when you know, whenthey're helping to do some of those things,

(45:45):
those are teachable moments right where youcan talk to them about nutrition and
you know what is important and whyis it important for the body? Okay,
And it's not that we want toteach deprivation. And we don't want
to say there's good food and badfood, right, because we don't want
to you know, we don't wantto have them actually crave more of the

(46:05):
stuff that's not healthy. But youknow what, what are what are healthy
choices? What are things that youknow that your body needs? Right,
and then let's be let's be mindful, and we would try to care some
more of that like higher sugar,higher fat kind of snacks with Okay,
well, we can do that,but we need to go for a bike

(46:27):
ride, or we need to gofor a walk or you know, although
that can backfire because I feel likethis is a whole series. Get ice
cream. No, every time wego for a bike ride, we're not
getting ice cream. But I couldgo for one now myself, So let's
get one. Yeah, food,that's a big one. But no,

(46:51):
buts I just I love everything you'resharing. And we all have our own
experiences, you know, based onour histories with it, based on current
based on the personalities in the household, based on their experience, based on
the partner's own history. There's somany competing forces at times, right that

(47:13):
make it a little harder at timesto make it optimum or feel optimum.
And resources that you bring and whatyou share. Yeah, and if we
so, I think sometimes if wefelt like our moms are really busy,
they weren't able to be emotionally presentfor us. We may try to overcompensate

(47:37):
by you know, being there allthe time and doing everything for our children
because we remember, you know,sort of that that pain or that loneliness
or that you know, questioning ourworth. But the problem with that is
that we're not really connecting to actuallythe route pain, which is our own

(48:00):
right. And so that's where thatreparenting and that growing up again piece is
about. You know, Okay,how do I honor my needs alongside of
my children, so I'm not swingingthe pendulum all the way to the other
side, right, which you knowcan result in exhaustion and burn out for
moms, right the flip side ofit, as I've had clients who were
like, but I saw my momdo everything right. I saw my mom

(48:23):
do everything, So if she coulddo it all, why can't I?
Right? And then we take thaton. But we are not necessarily privy
when we're children to what tool that'staking on mom or you know, or
on dad, right, And sowe need to remember that just because we

(48:45):
saw that doesn't mean that that waswhat was best right or that there wasn't
you know, potential long term consequencesright as far as impacts on emotional or
physical health. And while yeah,yeah, you use the word well burnout.

(49:08):
You mentioned that, and we talkedabout it in part one, and
then we moved into this recent experienceyou had becoming a practitioner or receiving a
certification and compassion fatigue, compassionate compassionfatigue. And I know we've already been
in this discussion for quite some timetoday conversation, and here we are again.

(49:30):
I'm like, ah, it's goingso fast. Is there anything you
want to speak to before like westart wrapping it up in a couple of
minutes around Well, first of all, is there anything left over that he
feels important to share with people aboutthis idea of like equality or equity in
the relationship or in the family,this idea of fair play is or anything

(49:52):
else around that? Or do youwant to move into the burnout compassion fatigue.
I think it's just a and holdingthat compassion for for ourselves right and
and for our partners too, becausewe are all being socialized in this.
I call it the liar the mythright of patriarchal motherhood and patriarchy that you

(50:16):
know, sort of has these incredibleexpectations on women and then almost like sets
the bar pretty low for men,and then at the same time though says
that you know, men are theones that are worth more, and you
know, it's just ridiculous. It'sit's ridiculous. So a big I think

(50:37):
a big part of the work isfor if possible as a couple to really
unpack that, right, and tosay, you know again, right,
what of this does not serve me, does not surf my you know,
serve my family? And I really, I really love the book. I
think it's by Michael Kaufman and it'scalled The Time Has Come and he he's

(51:00):
one of the co creators of theWhite Ribbon Campaign. So he's a male
feminist, you know, writer,and he talks about like why in so
many different ways it's so important foryou know, for men to be part
of this movement towards you know,equality and gender equity and how it benefits

(51:24):
them as well in all areas oftheir life. So it's it's really it's
really important that we don't just seethis as like this is a women's issue,
where this is mum's responsibility, right, And then in terms of the
compassion fatigue and what can make usvulnerable to that? And again it's both
there are individual kind of vulnerabilities,but then there are also these environmental,

(51:49):
systemic, you know, cultural contextualissues, right, regardless of what we're
talking about here. But I thinksort of that theme that that we talked
about that kind of brings it alltogether. Is you know, whether you
are caring for your child or whetheryou are caring for a client or a
patient or a student, is toto try to remember that you can't carry

(52:15):
all the responsibility. It's too muchfor one person. And we need to
remember that we are not the onlyones, despite what maybe we have been
told, or how we've been socialized, or even that identity that we've taken

(52:37):
on. Right, not only isthere other you know, people, supports,
resources, whatever that can you knowthat can wrap around and support families
or support clients or patients or students, but also how we view the client,

(52:57):
the patient, the student, right, Like are we see them through
this lens of Are you are helpless? You are a victim? You you
know, oh my goodness, youhave all these things going against you?
Or can we see them through thatlens of you? Are? You are
strong? You are a survivor,you are creative, you have infinite potential,

(53:22):
you are incredible, you are wise? Right? And the body,
as you know Julie right, there'slike so much wisdom within the body to
heal right and to come back intothat integration right, And so sometimes I

(53:44):
think it's just like if we canremember, you know, how are we
seeing, how are we seeing ourselves? How are we seeing others? And
again kind of coming back to thatidea of like miracles happen when we shift
our perspective pain. So we takesome of that pressure off of ourselves and

(54:05):
some of that you know, kindof heavy weight or burden that we might
be feeling, and it might bemanifesting in physical, you know, pain
or tension, but we are alsokind of giving back this sense of I
see you, I believe in you. And I remember Ashes saying at a
mentorship weekend that I attended with herthat when she works with her homeopathic patients

(54:32):
and her healing sessions that she wasdoing, she would see them as their
highest, healed version of themselves.And I just loved that in terms of,
you know, shifting how we relateto them and what we can essentially
bring out in them and how theysee themselves. Right. And so again,

(54:57):
it's not about bypassing their pain orthe barriers that they made face,
but it's about, you know,how are we helping to helping them to
see the truth of who they areand that they are not limited by their

(55:17):
circumstances. Right, And there's somany examples of that. I think that's
why I love memoirs, right,I love I love reading these stories and
seeing you know, people who havecome from you know, some some really
hard or horrific circumstances and this isincredible healing journeys that they're able to accomplish,
and like the human spirit is justamazing. Yeah, it's just amazing.

(55:44):
Yeah. You said also before westarted recording, that you're talking about
Sharon LaPlante, that caregiving is likeI know it sounds obvious, but when
you said it, it sounded likeit just struck a chord, like we're
caring. This is about the capacityto care for someone else. What does
a mean to care? And howdeep that can take someone and be all

(56:08):
encompassing. And you talked about it. Is it as an identity or as
a role, right? Yeah?And so Sharon is a beautiful nurse,
very very wise and just has againhas one of those lovely, lovely presents
and voices. So I love Ilove her bloge in this thing she often

(56:28):
talks about is we live in asociety again that devalues, right, devalues
caring, It devalues care giving,It devalues this intangible work that you know,
we don't necessarily have a product atthe end, right, but there

(56:49):
is incredible ripples mm hm when whenwe are able to offer that care,
that presence to someone and we maynever know how far that ripples out the
impacts you know that that can have. So I think that that piece is
really important, right, and whetherit's mothering and it feels thankless or whether

(57:12):
it's you know, we're working likeI worked for a nonprofit agency for a
long time, you know, constantlyfunding cuts and you know talk about you
know, scarcity and not feeling valued, right, and so you have to
you have to try to build thatfrom within, and you have to look
for and celebrate yourself. And that'snot always something that we're used to doing,

(57:36):
right, And we have to Ithink celebrate that the power of caring
and presence and not underestimate that andthat caring comes from your heart. And
to have an open heart also requiresa level of awareness around how are you

(58:00):
taking care of your heart? Youknow, right right, because we don't
want to just have it, youknow, I talk about boundaries kind of
I usual analogy of doors, sowe have like if if our boundaries are
totally closed off. It's like thedoor is slam shut, double bolted,
right, no windows, no nothing. Right. If we have no boundaries,
the door swung wide open, thenanything and everyone can come in.

(58:22):
So we need a screen, weneed a filter, right, And so
part of that is to be ableto you know, have space to take
in the good, but also tofilter out right, whether it's criticism or
whether it's you know, our owninner critic right saying oh this isn't enough,

(58:44):
I should be doing more, orwhether that's you know, maybe we're
only taking somebody so far on ajourney. Right. That's the other piece
about you know about caregiving is thatyou know it's temporary. Right, Even
even with our children, the influencethat we have gets less and less and
less, right, And if ourwhole sense of self worth and identity is

(59:09):
tied into that and then they strugglein some way, then that has huge
impacts on how we feel about ourselves. Or when they don't need us in
the same way, then we canwe can just feel really lost and like,
what's the point and what's my purpose? And you know, I've worked
with some moms at that stage issort of empty nest, right, And

(59:31):
it's like, oh, my goodness, I don't know who I am apart
from you know, this identity right, and so it's this whole process of
coming home right to yourself and gettingto know yourself. And so again I
think it's important, if possible,right to be protecting some of those aspects

(59:55):
of our identity. Well we are, you know, identifying as mother it's
such sacred work. It's such hardwork, you know, it can feel
all consuming, and we are morethan mothers. Indeed, we are.
And thank you Nicole for unpacking soeloquently all of this stuff that can weigh

(01:00:25):
so heavily on people, and forneatly and concisely putting into beautiful phrases that
feel like I can take them homeand sort of gently unpack them one at
a time and look at them andexamine them and think about them and remember

(01:00:47):
what you said, because you doit so poignantly. So thank you for
all of that and for the workthat you do. And as you were
talking, I was thinking, howsuddenly I don't know, is it Tina
Fay, the comedian from It's likeyou remind you reminded me of Tina Fey
right now, even though comedic aboutwhat you're sharing. But your mannerism is

(01:01:10):
like, right now, have youever been told that I have not?
I have not, but I do. I do have a silly side that
comes out every once in a while. So that being said, we've directed
people are already to your website.Do you want to say anything else where

(01:01:32):
they can find you? Again?Maybe remind them we're gonna put resources in
the notes and yeah, yeah,So my website is just piece impossibility dot
c A. I have an authorpage on the Gotman Institute just under my

(01:01:53):
name, and there's a link tothat on on my website, so you
can read any of my previous articles. The next one that's coming out is
going to go into more detail abouthow do we make this invisible load visible
and get our kids really involved,so including some of the links to research
and what some of the experts aresaying around that to counter some of you

(01:02:17):
know, what we've internalized. Sothere's that, and then I think we
chatted a little bit in the lastone about this idea of doing an Instagram
live series interviews, and so myvision is to call it more than Mothers
and to invite other mothers in tojust talk a little bit about like how

(01:02:39):
you protect those parts of yourself andhow you work through some of that mom
guilt and the benefits of that,because I think that's what's so important,
right, So much to the momguilt isn't isn't helping us. And so
instead of you know, these thingsthat we worry, we fear in terms
of how it's going to impact ourkids, we need to be reminded about

(01:03:00):
how it not just benefits us,but how it benefits everyone. And I
think that stories are such a beautifulway for people to connect and to see
aspects of themselves in that and youknow, maybe just over time, hearing
more of those stories might start tohelp people to push past some of that
unhelpful guilt and to honor, youknow, honor what they need to thrive,

(01:03:23):
and to honor those other parts ofthemselves that are you know, needing
to be watered, needing to youknow, to come up and feel that
sunlight on their face. Right,So that's there. I mean, I
know I could speak for myself,and I don't want to start a whole
of their conversation, but like theblind spots that go along with that,

(01:03:44):
like right that we're more than mothers. I know that there's you have to
prioritize yourself, and yet, forexample, I still keep doing the same
thing that keeps me taking time offermyself, you know in the evening or
like I keep repeating the same patterns, you know, right, So that's
that's interesting, you know, it'svery interesting. It's a journey where it's

(01:04:08):
a journey, and so glad thatyou're out there supporting people and having these
conversations. And thank you for doingthat. I love them more than mother's
title. Congrats. I'll be lookingfor that and I know we'll be talking
again. Maybe there won't be apart three, but we can do,

(01:04:28):
you know, start part one over. Thank you, Nicole. So good
to see you and hear your wisdom. And I hope that you get into
I just was seeing you like onmedia outlets also like I know, but
then also like get her onto thesocial in the view and I don't know,
like you have so many You're sowell spoken and you say just the

(01:04:51):
right things that I feel hit theright spots. So thank you, ah,
thank you so much, Julie.I appreciate that. And as I've
said before, I think you're sucha gifted interviewer and in that sense of
you know, you feel that thatsense of that you know you're feeling hurt

(01:05:15):
and your presence is there, andthat you're following, you're listening, you're
following, and you're also you know, reflecting and connecting and so yeah,
thank you connecting again. Yes,thank you THEO take care, bye everyone.

(01:05:45):
Thank you everyone for tuning in.Thank you Nicole Shiner for that two
part conversation and reminding me of allthe things that I need to do and
to question and to wonder about andto resonate with. Taking that all in.
What are you gaining, listeners,what are you hearing, what are

(01:06:08):
you needing? What are you beingreminded of? Feel free to be in
touch with Nicole Peace and Possibility dotCA. I mean, I'm just offering
that I shouldn't offer that so freelybecause she gets to decide, but I
know she's so welcoming and would loveto hear from you and of course check
out how she may support you.And you can get in touch with me

(01:06:30):
at julianconversation dot com or on mysocial media outlets and look forward to hearing
from you. Thank you for tuningin for this two part series. If
you haven't listened to part one,I suggest that you go listen to that.
And I'm grateful that you've been heretoday and thank you for being you,
just noticing your body right now aswe bring this to a close,

(01:06:55):
and what you're needing in this moment, May you receive it, May you
ask for it. May you findit when you seek it, when you
give it to yourself. Wishing youthe best. May you let your intuition
lead. I will be back withyou soon and be sure to subscribe,

(01:07:15):
rate review, and leave a comment. You can also donate actually to support
the podcast. When you go tomy website, Jeweling Conversation dot com.
You can find out how for aslittle as three dollars a month. So
thanks for tuning in, being yourself, and cheers to you,