September 5, 2024 • 50 mins
Center For Relationship Wellness
Drs. Don & Carrie Cole
The Center for Relationship Wellness, founded by Drs. Don Cole and Carrie Cole, offers an approach to marital therapy that is based on the 40+ years of scientific research of Dr. John Gottman, recently voted as one of the Top 10 Most Influential Therapists of the past quarter-century by Psychotherapy Networker. Don Cole and Carrie Cole are both frequent contributors to media articles on relationships.Most couples struggle with some problems in their relationships at some point. Oftentimes they are able to work through them, but sometimes they need outside help to manage their differences.Many of us find it hard to take the first step to seek out guidance for lots of reasons. People want to believe they can solve their own problems. After all, we are intelligent human beings. And many have heard horror stories about marriage counseling gone terribly wrong. No one wants to expose themselves psychologically only to be criticized or told that they are wrong. After struggling with those anxieties, how does one go about choosing a therapist for marriage counseling?Certified by The Gottman Institute, Don and Carrie offer a practical approach that teaches couples how to build marital intimacy, renew respect for one another, and develop problem-solving skills to manage conflict.
Don ColeD.Min, LPC, LMFT
Dr. Don Cole is the Clinical Director for The Gottman Institute and a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Washington. As a Certified Gottman Method Couples’ Therapist and a member of the Gottman Relationship Institute and an advanced trainer in Gottman Method Therapy, he teaches all levels of the Gottman Method Certification Program.He received his doctorate in ministry with a specialization in psychotherapy from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary in 1993. He has more than 30 years of experience working with individuals and couples in various capacities including marital therapy, affair recovery, depression, anxiety, trauma recovery, parenting, and personality disorders.
Carrie ColePh.D., M.Ed., LPC
Dr. Carrie Cole is the Director of Research for The Gottman Institute and a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Washington. As a Certified Gottman Method Couples’ Therapist and an advanced trainer in Gottman Method Therapy, she teaches all levels of the Gottman Method Certification Program.She is a licensed professional counselor in the state of Texas and an approved LPC Supervisor. She received her Master’s degree in Educational Psychology with a specialization in Counseling Psychology from the University of Texas at Austin in 1994. She received her PhD in psychology from Capella University.She has more than 25 years of experience working with individuals and couples on a wide range of issues including marital therapy, affair recovery, depression, anxiety, sexual abuse, eating disorders, parenting, trauma recovery, divorce recovery, and personality disorders. Carrie has also provided seminars on relationships, parenting and divorce recovery.
Drs. Don & Carrie Cole
The Center for Relationship Wellness, founded by Drs. Don Cole and Carrie Cole, offers an approach to marital therapy that is based on the 40+ years of scientific research of Dr. John Gottman, recently voted as one of the Top 10 Most Influential Therapists of the past quarter-century by Psychotherapy Networker. Don Cole and Carrie Cole are both frequent contributors to media articles on relationships.Most couples struggle with some problems in their relationships at some point. Oftentimes they are able to work through them, but sometimes they need outside help to manage their differences.Many of us find it hard to take the first step to seek out guidance for lots of reasons. People want to believe they can solve their own problems. After all, we are intelligent human beings. And many have heard horror stories about marriage counseling gone terribly wrong. No one wants to expose themselves psychologically only to be criticized or told that they are wrong. After struggling with those anxieties, how does one go about choosing a therapist for marriage counseling?Certified by The Gottman Institute, Don and Carrie offer a practical approach that teaches couples how to build marital intimacy, renew respect for one another, and develop problem-solving skills to manage conflict.
Don ColeD.Min, LPC, LMFT
Dr. Don Cole is the Clinical Director for The Gottman Institute and a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Washington. As a Certified Gottman Method Couples’ Therapist and a member of the Gottman Relationship Institute and an advanced trainer in Gottman Method Therapy, he teaches all levels of the Gottman Method Certification Program.He received his doctorate in ministry with a specialization in psychotherapy from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary in 1993. He has more than 30 years of experience working with individuals and couples in various capacities including marital therapy, affair recovery, depression, anxiety, trauma recovery, parenting, and personality disorders.
Carrie ColePh.D., M.Ed., LPC
Dr. Carrie Cole is the Director of Research for The Gottman Institute and a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Washington. As a Certified Gottman Method Couples’ Therapist and an advanced trainer in Gottman Method Therapy, she teaches all levels of the Gottman Method Certification Program.She is a licensed professional counselor in the state of Texas and an approved LPC Supervisor. She received her Master’s degree in Educational Psychology with a specialization in Counseling Psychology from the University of Texas at Austin in 1994. She received her PhD in psychology from Capella University.She has more than 25 years of experience working with individuals and couples on a wide range of issues including marital therapy, affair recovery, depression, anxiety, sexual abuse, eating disorders, parenting, trauma recovery, divorce recovery, and personality disorders. Carrie has also provided seminars on relationships, parenting and divorce recovery.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's get started. Hi, and welcome to Make More Love
Not War. This is Tara Harrison, licensed professional counselor and
relationship expert.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is her husband, Jeff Harrison, of no qualifications whatsoever,
just a normal dude.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Today we have Carrie Cole, she's the director of research
at the Gotman Institute, and Don Cole, who is the
clinical director at the Gotman Institute. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hi, Hello, thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Tara, so glad. I've been so excited. I know we
scheduled this months ago, and Jeff knows I could hardly
sleep last night. I was just like so excited to
have this interview. So thank you so much for coming
on in your time. And so for people that aren't
aware of what the Gotman method is, can y'all tell
us a little bit about what it is. I would
(00:59):
think y'all would know based on your titles.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Well, the Gomman method is a way of applying scientific
research into couples to helping couples improve their relationships. We
train therapists to use those methods. We provide workshops and
(01:22):
video materials and books and all sorts of other ways
of getting the information out that you know there are
some scientific answers to what makes relationships better, and so
the Government Institute is really a group that is focused
on delivering that message and that information across the board.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I would agree with that.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Okay, excellent, you concur.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Well, and there's ongoing research. We don't think we know
it all. That's that's one of the cool parts. You know.
That's Carrie's job. She's still gathering information about couples and
about how effective our methods are and so on.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
And ways of perfecting our treatment.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So Carrie, you're the gatherer in this relationship. I hear,
that's right. And don you're hunting down therapist to train.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Sometimes sometimes you're hunting me down.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm sure, yes it's please train me.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
But yes it's uh yeah. The training of our of
our therapist is a big part of my job, and
training trainers more than training therapists, I think.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Oh okay, well, I was very lucky years back to
get to take your level three as you know, level
three training and that was amazing. So a very great
experience with that. Well, what I'd really like to talk
about today are how the two of you, as I'll
just go ahead and say it, relationship masters, using Goatman's term,
(03:03):
how you apply the Gotman methods to your everyday relationship
to give people some great tools. So, like, what does
this look like in real life?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Well, I think one of the things that we are
really good at are doing a lot of positive things
for each other, expressing fondness and admiration towards each other,
which is huge, and turning towards one another. So you know,
(03:36):
we have these rituals that we do, and sometimes those
change over time. But one of my favorites is that
historically it takes me a lot longer to get ready
to go to work.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Then that's still true.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Currently, so Don, and Don's a great cook, So he
would make breakfast and bring it upstairs to me on
a tray, and I would stop wherever I was in
my preparation and we would sit down and have breakfast
(04:14):
together and watch the morning news, and then he would
go back and take all this the breakfast stuff back
downstairs and I would finish getting ready. So that was
a very sweet ritual for me.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
But part of the ritual was when I would arrive
with the breakfast, I would say this stupid, corny joke
which I will not repeat for.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Oh please do come on?
Speaker 4 (04:38):
No, all right, all right, and I would get I
would get the response, same, the same corny response. So
it's here's why, here's why I want to bring that
part up, because Carrie's talking about connection and the positives.
But one thing that we learned in early that Gotman
(05:00):
learned in the science is that repair is essential because
everybody gets off track. There was this one morning, this
several years ago now, but there was this one morning
where I come in with the breakfast trade and I
say my corny line because I'm thinking everything's the normal thing,
(05:24):
and she's goes, thanks.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Ooh, So you know something's off when she says that
she didn't say her normal Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
So we're sitting there eating and I'm kind of looking
side eye, and then finally I worked up the nerve
are you okay?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
No?
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Oh? What happened? Well, apparently what happened. Before I had
left to make the breakfast, she had asked me a question.
And what I thought, I said was that is a
very important question, my dear, and I will be happy
to address that question when I get back with the breakfast.
So if you for a moment and let me think
(06:09):
about that, I will answer your question.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Because it's so important. It's so important you want to
think about it more. I can see where you're going
with this. Okay, what she heard?
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Would you like to know what I heard?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yes, I definitely would.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And we know that reality is somewhere in between. Right
when I first said.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
I think hers was a little closer to the nudge action,
but I had totally forgotten about the whole question thing
and so on while I was doing the breakfast, and
it was it was actually kind of the breakdown and
the ritual that was the signal, Oh, we've got to
(06:54):
fix something. We don't just ignore it. We didn't just
leave it as if nothing happened, because that can be
deadly over time. So what did you hear? And And
a big part of repair is accepting the other's reality. Oh, yes,
says you. You just kind of blew me off when
(07:14):
I asked that question. I could get defensive and say no,
I didn't. I I told you I will wanted to
talk about it. I just wasn't ready right then. I
was busy with I could. I could argue against her reality,
but that never works.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
It does, it never works. It absolutely does not work.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
I have to accept her reality. Oh you felt totally
blown off by the way I talked to you. I
get it. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to blow you off.
I get why that upset you. So that's how you
do repair. A big step of repairs is realizing that
my reality isn't the only right reality, That my partner's
(07:58):
point of view matters, and her experience banners to me.
So if she felt blown off, then I got to
fix that because that's not the way I want to
treat her.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, even though you know that you did not intend
to blow her off, the important thing is not your intention.
It's how is the impact your behavior had on her?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
And there's only one way I have access to that,
which is to shut my fat mouth and listen. I
can't talk myself into understanding her. I have to listen
to her to understand what she experienced. So, even on
a little micro exchange like that, repair becomes central. Because
(08:45):
everybody messes up, except Carrie, but everybody. Everybody messes up.
Everybody does, And if your relationship cannot stand the stress
of messing up and needing to repair, then you're in trouble.
(09:08):
There's a term for that that you guys use in
the research side about emotional holding being able to.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Hold space, carrying capacity, carrying capacity.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I like that, Yes, that that healthy couples, master couples
have a carrying capacity for their partner's negative feelings.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Okay, we can hold it. Isn't that a beautiful thought?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
It is, well, and I have an interaction I'd like
to share that Jeff and I just had this morning
regarding carrying capacity, which so we're in the transition of
school starting, which I have anxiety, and so for me
that just really impacts my sleep cycles when when all
this transitions have and my daughter also big transitions, right,
(10:02):
so she's got a lot going on. I'm trying to
support her. So anyway, I was telling him this morning,
I was like, I think at nine o'clock it just
needs to be quiet time, and she needs to be
in her room and I need you not to talk
to me, and I just need to have quiet time
so that I can relax and sleep. And I just
thought that makes a lot of sense. And then he
(10:24):
had a response that I wasn't prepared for, which was
I could see he was frustrated, and so I came
back and connected on that again, and he was still
frustrated and basically expressing that, like, you can't control all
of us with your sleep problems, And I was like, wow.
So I went back and thought about that a little
(10:44):
bit and used my carrying capacity even though even though
I was really hoping that everybody would just go along
with what I needed for my anxiety, and came back
and talked to him about how it makes sense. And
I understand the feeling that he was expressing that that
how my anxiety sometimes controls the house, uh, and that
(11:06):
that's hard to do because the first thought that you have,
and this was, of course the first thought that I have,
is like, why doesn't why why doesn't he care about me?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Like?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Why why isn't he trying to make this change to
accommodate me? Like and so that those are the first thoughts,
and then I have to recognize, all right, I'm writing
a story in my head about him, and then I
have to stop and rewrite the story and rec and
think back on all the ways that he showed me
that he does care about me, and remind myself about
that and work through all of that and then think, Okay,
(11:39):
what is my responsibility here? And work through that. Yeah,
my anxiety is controlling the house. And then come back
and talk to him. So that's a long process in
what you were doing. Don to listen to her.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Right and you see. The thing is where some couples
get in trouble and sometimes where we get in two
is that when we when we react to each other verbally,
react to each other in a negative moment, it comes
out with one of those four horsemen that gotman always
talks about the criticism, defensiveness, if it gets worse, contempt
(12:17):
and stonewalling. But it can come out in that negative way.
So you know, like your story about anxiety and your
sleep needs controlling people, you could say, you know, that's
not fair, so you can go into the sort of
what we call the innocent victim defense.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And I did it first. I did don yeah to
myself though.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Yeah, but when we do that externally, when we when
we voice that to our partner, now we've created another
space that needs repair because we've been defensive or we've
been harsh in some way. I have a tendency. I
don't know if I used this term before we got
(13:01):
a dog, but a term that I used to initiate
repair a lot these days is bark. I'm sorry I
barked like that. Maybe I use that term before we
got our dog four years four or five years ago,
but I don't remember. I think maybe I adopted it
from Nikia. But you know what it means is I'm
(13:26):
sorry I was harsh. I'm sorry I was, And it's
usually a voice tone and people who think, well, I
only said as if the way I said it had
no impact. That's kind of silly, actually, because I only
said when the way I said it was a snarl
(13:50):
a bark, so I can hear that. I can hear
it myself. But one of the applications of this whole
idea of Gottman ideas of repair and so on, as like, oh,
I just barked, Now I can ignore it. She didn't
say anything, she didn't bark back, she didn't pout, she
(14:12):
didn't so I could just say, Okay, well I got
away with that one. But that's dumb. That's not good
being a good partner. It's like, it's so much easier
just to say, hey, I barked at you. I'm sorry,
and not to say I barked at you, but if
you hadn't been Yeah, you had left me alone, you
(14:33):
wouldn't have got barked at.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah. Yeah, that that is the real challenge and self control,
right to not put that button because you so want to.
You just want to be like but if you wouldn't
have been like that, then I wouldn't have no take
where you have to take responsibility.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Responsibility is the antidote to defensive.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yes, and it's so empowering too. If you can take responsibility,
then there's something you can do about it. Can't control
what the other person is doing, so to your responsibility,
it just leaves you with nothing to do, and I
like to be able to do something.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yeah, I love that. The way you say it, It's
like you could come in and say, oh, you're so awesome,
and then they're like, I just said you were awesome.
I mean, why are you getting so worked up? I mean,
come on, is there something right? I can't say you're
awesome now?
Speaker 4 (15:24):
I mean, yeah, we did those experiments in college and
our social psyche classes, you know, where you would say
something where the message and the delivery were misaligned, and
just to examine the emotional impact of that. And so
you know, I love you so much. I love you
(15:46):
so much yea, and the facial and vocal body language
stuff communicates more than the content of the words.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I remember when I was in school, I had a
friend he used to do this. It just was so
funny to me. He would just sit there and go
when somebody would be getting worked up, he goes, just
calm down, just calm down, just calm down. He was
just trying to get them even more. Just calm down,
calm and he was like and he's like, hey, I
was just sitting I was trying to tell him to
be calm. And so I'll do that the terror Sometimes
(16:23):
she just gets like you just cries.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I love it, hilarious.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
I used to do that to our kids and out
to our grandkids. They'll get giggling and I'll tell him
to stop laughing.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
There's nothing funny in here.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Would you please just stop laughing. Stop laughing funny, you
need to stop laughing. And of course, yeah, I get
more laughter being playful.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, people in different ways. I think the calm down
thing is mean plateful.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Of course, when he's.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Using that for repair, that's you know, using humor, humor
for repair, right, It can it can really work out?
Or it can it can really fail.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yes, it's very effective when it does work, Yes, because
it just calms the whole thing down. But when it
doesn't work, it's like people don't really understand what their
partner is doing, so that repair is probably going to
fail or they're flooded at the time. And when you're flooded,
(17:33):
the funniest thing in the world isn't funny.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Yes, And and a lot of times people use sarcasm
as humor and in certain circumstances, in certain relationships that
can be okay, But in a lot of relationships it's
not okay. Uh. And that's what love maps. Knowing your partner. Okay,
(18:05):
I can't make those kind of jokes now with our
youngest kid. We're terrible with each other. We always have been. Sarcasm,
rude comments is part of the way we play. But
I don't treat carry that way. And if I did,
and then I pulled this card, well, you're just too
(18:26):
sensitive you.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
No, no, you didn't.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
The fact is that's that love map idea, who who
are you dealing with here? And the same kind of rude,
sarcastic comments that I make with Riley, I would never
do with you because it would hurt you and and
to then assert, well, I like to play that way,
so you should just take it again. That's not being
(18:57):
a good partner. Yeah, you're focused on what I like,
not listening to what she likes.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah, that's the if you were if you would just
be more like me argument, right, which I think people
get really caught up in their heads as well and
even question am I with the right person because this
person is so not like me?
Speaker 4 (19:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
But it's really that cognitive flexibility of being able to
be like, Okay, they're different, and their difference is okay.
In fact, I can learn some things from it because
the idea of knowing your audience and being able to
interact differently with different people is also that's that's really important.
You can use that skill in so many places in
your life.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Right, And ah, well, there's no way that we can
be one hundred percent alike.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
That would be awful. I would want to be married
to me.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
So our differences can make guys better and stronger if
we let them. But that means listening to them.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Right and taking it in, writing it down if you
need that. You know somebody that we both know and admire,
great that we all know and admire greatly. Writes everything
that he hears down. He keeps a notepad in his pocket
and he'll pull it out. That's John.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I was thinking that was John because in training videos
I see him writing stuff down all the time. He's
always using the Rappa Port method. He's like, I'm gonna
write this down. Yeah, I do the same thing. I
also am really big on taking notes and session and
things like that because it just helps me process and
remember what the other person is saying.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Yeah, but John does it not just in his therapy sessions.
He does it in his interactions with Julie and his
interactions with us. You know, we'll be on vacation somewhere
and he'll pull out his own book and write down
something that one of us has said.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
How many times does he use that as like a
jumping off point for a chapter or something like that.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Who knows, He's written forty something books.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Somewhere, so, you know. Kind of another topic that answers
the question we brought up Tara is about how does
Scotland apply in our marriage. It's it's the three magic words.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
I love the three magic words.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
Tell or what the three magic works?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Three words or that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Oh, I love that one validation.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
And the science shows that women in our heterosexual relationships,
women are much better at accepting influence from men than
the reverse. We have theories or hypotheses about why that's true,
but we don't even know exactly why it's true.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
What are your theories? What do you think?
Speaker 4 (22:07):
I think part of it is we just live in
a sexist culture where that men are taught to honor
other voices than the woman's.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
But you do you also think that it's just you know,
through throughout time. You know, I'm just talking about over
the thousands of years, the men would be out work,
you know in you know, back in the they'd be
in the Senate of the Romans, and the mothers and
the women are still back at home, so they have
(22:40):
more influence of what's going on. So they're bringing back
that information. Oh, this is what's going on in the world.
I'm telling you what it is.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
But you see, you just reinforced what I said that
you're just what culture. You just move sexist culture back
two thousand years. That it's been going on for a
long time.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Most of the stuff comes from a long time, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
Yes, right, it's so that's my that's a hypothesis, and
I think that's especially true about why it's so dangerous
because since women in our culture get get their opinions
stepped on so much more often than men do, that
when the husband steps on the wife's opinions, blows her off,
(23:27):
ignores her thoughts, it does a lot more damage than
if we're the receiver of that, because you know, we
don't get treated that way on a day by day,
moment by moment basis the way our women do. So
I think that's one of the reasons why the research
shows it is a real danger to relationships when men
(23:52):
reject women's influence. And that's where the magic words come in,
because that's the end to that. In my that's kind
of the way I framed it. I don't even think
that's out of a dotmin book. That's just my right
way of talking about it. Hey, that makes sense. But
(24:12):
when I say those words, Carrie's expressing something, and I
say those words, you've told me what happens to your
it makes mine.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I can feel my heart rate go down. I can
feel just a calming, soothing experience all over my body
when he says it you know, like ah Siah relief.
You believe me.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
I can tell you a funny story about this. This
goes back to the breakfast time thing. What we used
to watch TV at breakfast. We don't do that anymore
of it. Back then we did. And a commercial came
on and we were sitting there eating our breakfast and
this commercial came on and they were selling mattresses and
the husband and the mattress was in the bedroom. In
(25:02):
this commercial, the wife wasn't there, and I think that
setup is kind of creepy, but anyway, that's what was there.
And what happened was the salesman smacked the mattress and
this cloud of dust and evil and stuff floats up
out of the mattress, and the husband says to the
to the salesman, oh, I guess my wife was right,
(25:26):
we do need a new mattress. Well that something rose
up in me at that moment, and I talked to
the television as if I were talking to an umpire
at Wrigley Field, which is where I grew up. You know,
they can't hear you, but you're gonna say it anyway.
Why in they hell didn't you listen to her? She's
(25:48):
the one sleeping on the mattress, not the guy with
the ball tap and the clipboard. But his opinion matters
more to you than hers. So in that little commercial,
we saw a you know, sort of a role play
of this whole rejecting influence dynamic. And I've tried to
(26:09):
be very conscious as a as a husband, and as
a father and grandfather. I try to be very conscious
and even as a coworker and a person in society,
to make that a goal. Am I accepting influence? Am
(26:31):
I listening to the other's point of view even if
I disagree. I don't have to agree with everything Carrie says,
because on rare occasions she has been known to be wrong.
It's not often, but she always makes sense even if
I disagree. So those are the three magic words that
(26:52):
I think we I think we pay attention to that.
You do it too, But I do think our experience
matches the science that it's just so much more important
for husbands to do that for wives, or men to
do that for their female partners. It's true in gay
(27:13):
and lesbian relationships too.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
It's interesting you you mentioned that because in there's a
book called Don't Split the difference by Chris Voss and
you don't know it, Okay. So so Chris Boss is
a he was a famous hostage negotiator and he you know,
he wrote a whole book about this whole thing and
(27:37):
he and he takes that that method and he takes
it to business. But so he goes through all of
his negotiations and one of the things that he said
was when you're in a conversation with with you know,
the hostage negotiating, negotiating is he would say something that
he would say, you don't want to say you're right.
(27:57):
You want you'd want to say that's right. And he
always made sure that whenever he was talking. And he
even talked about a situation where he was talking with
his son about how his son wasn't playing football well
and instead of if he would have just said, you know,
you're right, that wouldn't have worked. But if he says
that's right, that's right. And it was really sort of
(28:19):
that one little change, which is basically what you're saying,
is it's the acknowledgment, like because otherwise it seems like
you're just blowing off, you know. So I think that's
interesting that they're in hosted negotiation is really similar to
what you're talking about. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, and it's building trust, right, I mean that that's
the key of it, is that when he's trying to
build trust with the with the person he's negotiating with.
So this all goes back to how are you building
trust with your partner? And accepting influence is a huge
way to build trust with your partner.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Yes, you know the you know Goatman Gottman theory, uh
looks at relationships in three large you know, umbrella ways.
How does a couple manage conflict, accepting influence, avoiding for horsemen,
(29:15):
doing repairs? How do couples connect on a positive way,
you know, building love maps, sharing fondness and admiration, having
these little rituals of connection turning toward all that stuff.
Then there's this third area about building dreams together, creating
a meaningful life future. And you know, I think that
(29:41):
one of the really great things about our life together.
I mean, Kerry and I met at work, right right right?
You met me as your new incoming kind of boss.
Not yeah, I guess I would. You ran your own
counseling office, but I was running I was the overseer
(30:06):
for a bunch of counseling offices, which included yours when
I started that position, so I was like the clinical
director for a bunch of counseling office, including yours. So
that's how we met, and we knew each other as
co workers for almost two years before we ever started dating.
(30:29):
And we've been blessed to have a life where the
building shared meaning was almost built into the system learning
got the method together. I mean, we went to all
of our trainings together. We went to the Art and
Science of Love workshop as trainees, we went to experience
(30:52):
it together. Of course you do that together. So a
lot of the shared meaning of our life as been
our work and our association, affiliation and involvement with Godlin
Institute and Gotlin Method, so that creating shared meaning was
(31:12):
sort of built into our lives. It was kind of
handed to us, but it's huge. And now that we're
getting a little bit older, you know, here has significantly
changed color and talking about maybe we will retire someday,
(31:35):
you know, we're on a new conversation about what would
be meaningful, what would we want, where would we want
to be, how do we want to live that life?
As we transition from the life that we've been living
for the last thirty years or so, as you know,
working together so that piece, that shared meaning piece, has
(31:58):
been easy for us, and it is for all companies,
but it's important, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I think as I think about that this podcast that
the two of you do is a way is a
shared meaning piece for the two of you.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Right it is. Yes. Actually, that's part of why we
started the podcast together in twenty eighteen is at that
time our daughter was little and we were in different roles.
And when kids, as y'all know what the research shows
when kids are a little, marriage satisfaction takes a dip,
(32:36):
and we were in that dip, and I was trying
to figure out, like what how can he and I connect?
And I know at that time I had never I
was not into podcasts. I never listened to them. But
he was listening to podcasts all the time and talking
about them and stuff like that, and for years he
was like, Oh, you should do a podcast. She'd be
great at a podcast. But I don't like public speaking.
(32:57):
I get anxiety, performance anxiety and all this stuff, and
so I was really resistant to it for like probably
a full year of you saying that. But that was
the reason that we started the podcast because I was like,
you know what, this is a comfort zone for him
to connect on and maybe I'll like it, and I
and I did. He was he was right, So accepting influence.
(33:19):
But yeah, yeah, And what do y'all have any advice
for couples who are, you know, at whatever stage of
their life. It could be that they have little kids,
or maybe the kids have moved out of the house
and the kids being the third leg of their marriage
has shifted and now there's that's not there anymore to
figure out how to create shared meaning. I see that
(33:42):
as a as a major issue that people bring into
therapy a lot like I don't. I don't maybe divorces
on the table, and it's it's because of that lack
of shared meeting there and a lot of the times
it is because the kids have moved out in the
house and that was the shared meaning, which it's great
to have that, but I think we also need to
have more because that's transient.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Sure, So there's so many ideas. I mean, in some ways,
it's a ritual of connection, and there are lots of
ways that they can create rituals and find rituals. And
there may be some things that they might try that
they'll never try again, like taking a cooking class. You know,
(34:24):
maybe that's something that they hit upon that they really
enjoy doing together. Or maybe it's a dance class or
doing yoga together, or going on a hike together. So
they could try all kinds of things that maybe it's
a one and done, but maybe it's something that's pretty intriguing,
(34:44):
you know, taking some tennis lessons together. You know, we
need to have more get more fitness in our lives
and you know, be more active. And you know, so
tennis or pickleball or.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
That's not for you, don I'm I'm a I'm a
a very old school tennis player.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So the P word it's just wrong. It's wrong, that's wrong.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
What are they doing on my tennis courts?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Anarchists?
Speaker 3 (35:15):
But so there's lots of things, right that they could try.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
But you know, those things are are kind of pleasure based,
you know, how to have fun, and that's great. But
I think a lot of times the conversations couples need
to have can really start with more what's important to me? Yeah,
I had a professor my doctoral program. He used to
(35:41):
say it this way, and I kind of thought, well,
this is kind of a weird way of talking about it,
but in one way it makes sense. He used to
tell us, tell me what you hate? Hmm, what do
I hate? I hate abuse? You see, now I hate injustice. Okay,
(36:11):
now we've got Karen, what do you hate. I'm not
saying people should have the conversation that way, but it's
a way. It's kind of a backwards way of getting
into what do I what matters to me, what what
energizes me? What do I care about? And is there
a way that those feelings of justice or or you know,
(36:39):
protection from abuse, There a way we can be more
involved in those kinds of things that that that really
have have energy, that matter. So, you know, not everybody
has to be on some kind of idealistic, you know,
(37:02):
changed the world sort of mentality, but I think most
people have at least some of that in them. Voter registration, we're,
you know, in middle of an election season. You know,
I care about voter registration. I you know, for a while,
I'm not as involved now since we moved to Seattle,
(37:25):
But for a lot of years I was really closely
affiliated with the Cherokee tribe in Oklahoma. My father was Cherokee,
and I was on the board of directors for Children's
Home there and I'm still supporting them financially, but I'm
not involved in operationally anymore. But you know, and I
(37:50):
got Kerry involved in that, and she started caring about
it and discovered she's part Turkey too, so you know, uh, yeah,
there are blond hair Turkey. So so you know, those
those kind of things. I think to be okay with
(38:12):
discussing those, and it can be kind of vulnerable because
if I start talking to my partner about something that
is meaningful, that that maybe even chokes me up when
I think about it, and it feels disregarded or treated
(38:34):
as silly or dismissed by the partner or that that
can really feel bad. So, you know, successful couples learning
how to share those those inner dreams and them working
together to find the dream that they both can support,
I think that's a I think that's a real gift
(38:57):
that gotman science brings to the whole idea both of
what it means to be in a good relationship and
what it means to be a good Couple's therapists is
to help address that stuff with client. Not all about
you guys need to stop fighting, you know. I mean
a couple's therapy can be a lot more than that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Yeah, that's usually why they come. They do want to
stop fighting. Yeah. Well, and I think this all goes
back to what we were talking about earlier, which is
perspective taking. The more that people are able to do
that with each other, the more trust you can build
to be able to have these kind of conversations. It's
super vulnerable to come in to talk about something that's
(39:41):
important to you if you are afraid your partner is
not really going to hear you, if they don't, if
they don't also value the same thing.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
One thing we like to say is teamwork makes the
dream work.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Yeah yeah, yeah. For us, For example, Carrie is much more.
It has much more of a need about grandchildren to
be physically present and time with them. I love our grandchildren,
but I kind of grew up in a much more
(40:13):
kind of distant sort of style, so I don't have
to live as close to them as you do. But
here's where the shared dream comes in. As we're talking
about our future. You know, do I care enough about
her dream? You know, or we don't have to. We
can go visit we don't.
Speaker 5 (40:34):
You know.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
You know something Tara said a long time ago to
me that I thought a knife of it to other
people as well, is if it's important to you, it's
important to me. Just that simple important to you, it's
important to me, and even to business partners or whatever.
It didn't matter. I was like, Okay, you know this
(40:59):
is what you want. I mean, well let's go do it.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Yeah. Yeah. And it does go back to a lot
of you know, the relationship science that start at fifty
some years ago now about why are some couples so
good at connecting and some aren't. And the ones who
are good at connecting know how to share visions and
dreams and meaning and try to create a meaningful life.
(41:27):
That's just that's a characteristic. That's what they do. And
other couples ignore that, and it's detrimental when they do,
because it is such an important part of life.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Oh yeah, it's it's the most important part of life.
I mean, Victor Frankel said it, right.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Do you think that's a taught thing or is it
something that you just inherently have. I mean, you can
be a little bit of both. You know, obviously you
can massage it, but is it Do you think that anybody,
if they were taught, it's just a matter of just
not being taught.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Taught depends on what you mean by taught.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I think you just like seeing examples. You're growing up
in it, you know, just.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
I think it makes it easier to grab a hold
of ideas like that when that was part of your
experience and that's the way you were trained. But there
are other ways to learn it, you know. And you know,
people learn a lot from being close to someone and
(42:30):
learning to value what they value. You know, you agree
with that.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I do. I'm thinking in some ways, part of it
has to do with empathy. Yeah, And so as you're
asking that question, I immediately jumped to empathy and is
that something that can be taught? And I think that
(42:58):
in some ways it can talk, but there has to
be some innate kind of emotion and emotional ability to
connect emotionally for that to even take hold, right.
Speaker 4 (43:16):
So, but I think that most people can.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
I think I think those for whom empathy is a
lost skill is an impossible skill. Yeah, there are certainly
reasons for that, some of them even neurological. But for
the most of us, I think it's it's a possible
skill and maybe can be honed if we if we try.
(43:43):
One of the best ways to hone it is to experience.
That's right, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, I had something that happened to me once when
where I was so I was, I grew up racing cars.
So and I had a sponsor of mine who went
to one of the heat He only went to one race,
Like he sponsored me for years. He only went to
one race. And I mean I'm like thirty five years
old at the time, and I did this race, and
(44:11):
after it was over, I mean it was like really difficult.
It was like really hard, like it's super hot. It
was hot, didn't have all this stuff. It was way
out of you know, drivers would passed out and had
to go to the hospital. It was one of those
kind of things. And so I finished the race and
I was just like, you know, I did all right.
I mean I think I finished top ten, which was
(44:33):
great first time me that so and I sort of
was just sort of sitting there and he just came
over and he goes, man, I'm proud of you. It
was just that I'm proud of you. And I was like,
if that it had never happened, like those words would
never have come from anybody else. And it wasn't that
he was like overly like oh my gosh, just because
(44:55):
it came from him, you know, It wasn't anything like that.
It was just like wow, And it's so resonated with
me that I went, I'm going to do that more.
And I'll like, so if a friend of mine wins
a race out of the blue, I'll just send them
a text or something and say, hey, man, I'm really
proud of you. A great job. I mean, just that alone,
and they and people will just they just were like, wow,
(45:18):
thank you, that's really cool of you.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
You know, Jeff, what you're talking about is something I
think that it's really important, and that is to feel
like you're seen, right, that somebody sees you and is
aware of all of the effort that you have given
it right, and that being seen and validated is so
(45:44):
important for all of us.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Yeah, and I also think I mean could, But what
I also think it does is there's it's so easy
to be jealous of their success if somebody had it
when it's you know, when you're you're direct competitive, Like
I raced against these guys and I'll be like, wow,
that's amazing you won Lamont. I mean like so, but
(46:12):
the really that so proud of you, Just that alone
made such a it's it's really made a big difference.
Speaker 4 (46:19):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
Kind of really resonated inside of inside of you. Right,
you could be proud of yourself.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Too, exactly.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
Yeah, and within the marital bond. I don't think there's
much more important than that kind of admiration, right that
that Carrie knows that I am in awe of her
and I am. I watched her do this doctorate that
she did that I would never try to do it again.
(46:51):
I mean I did one when I was a kid,
but yeah, it was awesome.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Yeah, so uh.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Yeah, that can really I mean having somebody have your
back and be at your side like that and express
that can. I mean that just is a superpower that
we carry with us all day long. It's like, no
matter how hard the day is, you're going to come
home to somebody who loves you and thinks you're awesome.
And it's not just your dog, it's your partner too.
Speaker 4 (47:22):
Yeah, I just don't jump up.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, you don't just like lay on the floor and
sure or your belly.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
That's there may be some but there may be some
begging going on.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
I didn't say, don't jump up on her.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Sometimes you do lay on the floor your belly Okay,
well okay, I mean what do y'all do in your
own bedrooms? Up to you? Yeah, well, y'all. It has
just been such an honor to have you on the podcast.
Thank you so much for your time today. And I
did want to ask you are you still Are both
of you still in private practice where people could see you,
(48:00):
because I imagine after hearing the both of you today,
they're going to be people who want to be like
I want to see them. How do I find them?
How would they find you?
Speaker 3 (48:09):
We are both still seeing couples. I see couples through
the Gotman Love Lab, so they would have to be uh.
They would go through the lab and I would assess
them and then I do what's called marathon therapy, which
Don does as well. So it's three days of intense therapy,
(48:30):
three six hour days where you go through and work
on some really deep issues.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Someone if they went to gotlan dot com, our basic website,
there's a find a therapists link through there. We're both
on that our names will pop up. They can always
find us that way. All of our scheduling is done
by by our manager or whose name is Heidi, so
(49:02):
it's just Heidi at gotman dot com. Heidi schedules everything
for us. She also works some for the institute, so
she's got an email with them. Heidi at gotman dot
com is the easiest way to get started, because if
you emailed one of us directly, we're just going forwarded
to Heidi anyway. So because she contacts people and she
(49:25):
knows our schedule better than we do, so thank you
for asking that. But yeah, gotman dot com you can
find us that way. You can Heidi at gotman dot com.
You can find us that way, okay.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
And who wouldn't want to spend eighteen hours with one
one of you or both of you? Do you do
it together or or do you do that?
Speaker 4 (49:43):
So?
Speaker 3 (49:43):
Really so most of the time we do it individually,
but there are times when people hire both of us
at the same time.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Part of that's a cost thing. If people could when
people really have resources and say, hey, we want to
get the most out of this, we can, they'll hire
both of us, but that you know, that's costly, you know,
double surprise. But for some people that's on an issue.
But for those that it is, we mostly don't do that.
(50:11):
We see our couples individually, but yeah, we that's the
majority of still what we do, uh, is our private practice.
Carrie runs the research department. I do the clinical director job.
But yeah, we're private practitioners primarily.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Okay, well, thank you so much again, this was fantastic,
great conversation. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
Well, take care
Let's get started. Hi, and welcome to Make More Love
Not War. This is Tara Harrison, licensed professional counselor and
relationship expert.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is her husband, Jeff Harrison, of no qualifications whatsoever,
just a normal dude.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Today we have Carrie Cole, she's the director of research
at the Gotman Institute, and Don Cole, who is the
clinical director at the Gotman Institute. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hi, Hello, thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Tara, so glad. I've been so excited. I know we
scheduled this months ago, and Jeff knows I could hardly
sleep last night. I was just like so excited to
have this interview. So thank you so much for coming
on in your time. And so for people that aren't
aware of what the Gotman method is, can y'all tell
us a little bit about what it is. I would
(00:59):
think y'all would know based on your titles.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Well, the Gomman method is a way of applying scientific
research into couples to helping couples improve their relationships. We
train therapists to use those methods. We provide workshops and
(01:22):
video materials and books and all sorts of other ways
of getting the information out that you know there are
some scientific answers to what makes relationships better, and so
the Government Institute is really a group that is focused
on delivering that message and that information across the board.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I would agree with that.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Okay, excellent, you concur.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Well, and there's ongoing research. We don't think we know
it all. That's that's one of the cool parts. You know.
That's Carrie's job. She's still gathering information about couples and
about how effective our methods are and so on.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
And ways of perfecting our treatment.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So Carrie, you're the gatherer in this relationship. I hear,
that's right. And don you're hunting down therapist to train.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Sometimes sometimes you're hunting me down.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm sure, yes it's please train me.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
But yes it's uh yeah. The training of our of
our therapist is a big part of my job, and
training trainers more than training therapists, I think.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Oh okay, well, I was very lucky years back to
get to take your level three as you know, level
three training and that was amazing. So a very great
experience with that. Well, what I'd really like to talk
about today are how the two of you, as I'll
just go ahead and say it, relationship masters, using Goatman's term,
(03:03):
how you apply the Gotman methods to your everyday relationship
to give people some great tools. So, like, what does
this look like in real life?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Well, I think one of the things that we are
really good at are doing a lot of positive things
for each other, expressing fondness and admiration towards each other,
which is huge, and turning towards one another. So you know,
(03:36):
we have these rituals that we do, and sometimes those
change over time. But one of my favorites is that
historically it takes me a lot longer to get ready
to go to work.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Then that's still true.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Currently, so Don, and Don's a great cook, So he
would make breakfast and bring it upstairs to me on
a tray, and I would stop wherever I was in
my preparation and we would sit down and have breakfast
(04:14):
together and watch the morning news, and then he would
go back and take all this the breakfast stuff back
downstairs and I would finish getting ready. So that was
a very sweet ritual for me.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
But part of the ritual was when I would arrive
with the breakfast, I would say this stupid, corny joke
which I will not repeat for.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Oh please do come on?
Speaker 4 (04:38):
No, all right, all right, and I would get I
would get the response, same, the same corny response. So
it's here's why, here's why I want to bring that
part up, because Carrie's talking about connection and the positives.
But one thing that we learned in early that Gotman
(05:00):
learned in the science is that repair is essential because
everybody gets off track. There was this one morning, this
several years ago now, but there was this one morning
where I come in with the breakfast trade and I
say my corny line because I'm thinking everything's the normal thing,
(05:24):
and she's goes, thanks.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Ooh, So you know something's off when she says that
she didn't say her normal Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
So we're sitting there eating and I'm kind of looking
side eye, and then finally I worked up the nerve
are you okay?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
No?
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Oh? What happened? Well, apparently what happened. Before I had
left to make the breakfast, she had asked me a question.
And what I thought, I said was that is a
very important question, my dear, and I will be happy
to address that question when I get back with the breakfast.
So if you for a moment and let me think
(06:09):
about that, I will answer your question.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Because it's so important. It's so important you want to
think about it more. I can see where you're going
with this. Okay, what she heard?
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Would you like to know what I heard?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yes, I definitely would.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And we know that reality is somewhere in between. Right
when I first said.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
I think hers was a little closer to the nudge action,
but I had totally forgotten about the whole question thing
and so on while I was doing the breakfast, and
it was it was actually kind of the breakdown and
the ritual that was the signal, Oh, we've got to
(06:54):
fix something. We don't just ignore it. We didn't just
leave it as if nothing happened, because that can be
deadly over time. So what did you hear? And And
a big part of repair is accepting the other's reality. Oh, yes,
says you. You just kind of blew me off when
(07:14):
I asked that question. I could get defensive and say no,
I didn't. I I told you I will wanted to
talk about it. I just wasn't ready right then. I
was busy with I could. I could argue against her reality,
but that never works.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
It does, it never works. It absolutely does not work.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
I have to accept her reality. Oh you felt totally
blown off by the way I talked to you. I
get it. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to blow you off.
I get why that upset you. So that's how you
do repair. A big step of repairs is realizing that
my reality isn't the only right reality, That my partner's
(07:58):
point of view matters, and her experience banners to me.
So if she felt blown off, then I got to
fix that because that's not the way I want to
treat her.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, even though you know that you did not intend
to blow her off, the important thing is not your intention.
It's how is the impact your behavior had on her?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
And there's only one way I have access to that,
which is to shut my fat mouth and listen. I
can't talk myself into understanding her. I have to listen
to her to understand what she experienced. So, even on
a little micro exchange like that, repair becomes central. Because
(08:45):
everybody messes up, except Carrie, but everybody. Everybody messes up.
Everybody does, And if your relationship cannot stand the stress
of messing up and needing to repair, then you're in trouble.
(09:08):
There's a term for that that you guys use in
the research side about emotional holding being able to.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Hold space, carrying capacity, carrying capacity.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I like that, Yes, that that healthy couples, master couples
have a carrying capacity for their partner's negative feelings.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Okay, we can hold it. Isn't that a beautiful thought?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
It is, well, and I have an interaction I'd like
to share that Jeff and I just had this morning
regarding carrying capacity, which so we're in the transition of
school starting, which I have anxiety, and so for me
that just really impacts my sleep cycles when when all
this transitions have and my daughter also big transitions, right,
(10:02):
so she's got a lot going on. I'm trying to
support her. So anyway, I was telling him this morning,
I was like, I think at nine o'clock it just
needs to be quiet time, and she needs to be
in her room and I need you not to talk
to me, and I just need to have quiet time
so that I can relax and sleep. And I just
thought that makes a lot of sense. And then he
(10:24):
had a response that I wasn't prepared for, which was
I could see he was frustrated, and so I came
back and connected on that again, and he was still
frustrated and basically expressing that, like, you can't control all
of us with your sleep problems, And I was like, wow.
So I went back and thought about that a little
(10:44):
bit and used my carrying capacity even though even though
I was really hoping that everybody would just go along
with what I needed for my anxiety, and came back
and talked to him about how it makes sense. And
I understand the feeling that he was expressing that that
how my anxiety sometimes controls the house, uh, and that
(11:06):
that's hard to do because the first thought that you have,
and this was, of course the first thought that I have,
is like, why doesn't why why doesn't he care about me?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Like?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Why why isn't he trying to make this change to
accommodate me? Like and so that those are the first thoughts,
and then I have to recognize, all right, I'm writing
a story in my head about him, and then I
have to stop and rewrite the story and rec and
think back on all the ways that he showed me
that he does care about me, and remind myself about
that and work through all of that and then think, Okay,
(11:39):
what is my responsibility here? And work through that. Yeah,
my anxiety is controlling the house. And then come back
and talk to him. So that's a long process in
what you were doing. Don to listen to her.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Right and you see. The thing is where some couples
get in trouble and sometimes where we get in two
is that when we when we react to each other verbally,
react to each other in a negative moment, it comes
out with one of those four horsemen that gotman always
talks about the criticism, defensiveness, if it gets worse, contempt
(12:17):
and stonewalling. But it can come out in that negative way.
So you know, like your story about anxiety and your
sleep needs controlling people, you could say, you know, that's
not fair, so you can go into the sort of
what we call the innocent victim defense.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And I did it first. I did don yeah to
myself though.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Yeah, but when we do that externally, when we when
we voice that to our partner, now we've created another
space that needs repair because we've been defensive or we've
been harsh in some way. I have a tendency. I
don't know if I used this term before we got
(13:01):
a dog, but a term that I used to initiate
repair a lot these days is bark. I'm sorry I
barked like that. Maybe I use that term before we
got our dog four years four or five years ago,
but I don't remember. I think maybe I adopted it
from Nikia. But you know what it means is I'm
(13:26):
sorry I was harsh. I'm sorry I was, And it's
usually a voice tone and people who think, well, I
only said as if the way I said it had
no impact. That's kind of silly, actually, because I only
said when the way I said it was a snarl
(13:50):
a bark, so I can hear that. I can hear
it myself. But one of the applications of this whole
idea of Gottman ideas of repair and so on, as like, oh,
I just barked, Now I can ignore it. She didn't
say anything, she didn't bark back, she didn't pout, she
(14:12):
didn't so I could just say, Okay, well I got
away with that one. But that's dumb. That's not good
being a good partner. It's like, it's so much easier
just to say, hey, I barked at you. I'm sorry,
and not to say I barked at you, but if
you hadn't been Yeah, you had left me alone, you
(14:33):
wouldn't have got barked at.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah. Yeah, that that is the real challenge and self control,
right to not put that button because you so want to.
You just want to be like but if you wouldn't
have been like that, then I wouldn't have no take
where you have to take responsibility.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Responsibility is the antidote to defensive.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yes, and it's so empowering too. If you can take responsibility,
then there's something you can do about it. Can't control
what the other person is doing, so to your responsibility,
it just leaves you with nothing to do, and I
like to be able to do something.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yeah, I love that. The way you say it, It's
like you could come in and say, oh, you're so awesome,
and then they're like, I just said you were awesome.
I mean, why are you getting so worked up? I mean,
come on, is there something right? I can't say you're
awesome now?
Speaker 4 (15:24):
I mean, yeah, we did those experiments in college and
our social psyche classes, you know, where you would say
something where the message and the delivery were misaligned, and
just to examine the emotional impact of that. And so
you know, I love you so much. I love you
(15:46):
so much yea, and the facial and vocal body language
stuff communicates more than the content of the words.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I remember when I was in school, I had a
friend he used to do this. It just was so
funny to me. He would just sit there and go
when somebody would be getting worked up, he goes, just
calm down, just calm down, just calm down. He was
just trying to get them even more. Just calm down,
calm and he was like and he's like, hey, I
was just sitting I was trying to tell him to
be calm. And so I'll do that the terror Sometimes
(16:23):
she just gets like you just cries.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I love it, hilarious.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
I used to do that to our kids and out
to our grandkids. They'll get giggling and I'll tell him
to stop laughing.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
There's nothing funny in here.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Would you please just stop laughing. Stop laughing funny, you
need to stop laughing. And of course, yeah, I get
more laughter being playful.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, people in different ways. I think the calm down
thing is mean plateful.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Of course, when he's.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Using that for repair, that's you know, using humor, humor
for repair, right, It can it can really work out?
Or it can it can really fail.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yes, it's very effective when it does work, Yes, because
it just calms the whole thing down. But when it
doesn't work, it's like people don't really understand what their
partner is doing, so that repair is probably going to
fail or they're flooded at the time. And when you're flooded,
(17:33):
the funniest thing in the world isn't funny.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Yes, And and a lot of times people use sarcasm
as humor and in certain circumstances, in certain relationships that
can be okay, But in a lot of relationships it's
not okay. Uh. And that's what love maps. Knowing your partner. Okay,
(18:05):
I can't make those kind of jokes now with our
youngest kid. We're terrible with each other. We always have been. Sarcasm,
rude comments is part of the way we play. But
I don't treat carry that way. And if I did,
and then I pulled this card, well, you're just too
(18:26):
sensitive you.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
No, no, you didn't.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
The fact is that's that love map idea, who who
are you dealing with here? And the same kind of rude,
sarcastic comments that I make with Riley, I would never
do with you because it would hurt you and and
to then assert, well, I like to play that way,
so you should just take it again. That's not being
(18:57):
a good partner. Yeah, you're focused on what I like,
not listening to what she likes.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah, that's the if you were if you would just
be more like me argument, right, which I think people
get really caught up in their heads as well and
even question am I with the right person because this
person is so not like me?
Speaker 4 (19:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
But it's really that cognitive flexibility of being able to
be like, Okay, they're different, and their difference is okay.
In fact, I can learn some things from it because
the idea of knowing your audience and being able to
interact differently with different people is also that's that's really important.
You can use that skill in so many places in
your life.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Right, And ah, well, there's no way that we can
be one hundred percent alike.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
That would be awful. I would want to be married
to me.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
So our differences can make guys better and stronger if
we let them. But that means listening to them.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Right and taking it in, writing it down if you
need that. You know somebody that we both know and admire,
great that we all know and admire greatly. Writes everything
that he hears down. He keeps a notepad in his pocket
and he'll pull it out. That's John.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I was thinking that was John because in training videos
I see him writing stuff down all the time. He's
always using the Rappa Port method. He's like, I'm gonna
write this down. Yeah, I do the same thing. I
also am really big on taking notes and session and
things like that because it just helps me process and
remember what the other person is saying.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Yeah, but John does it not just in his therapy sessions.
He does it in his interactions with Julie and his
interactions with us. You know, we'll be on vacation somewhere
and he'll pull out his own book and write down
something that one of us has said.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
How many times does he use that as like a
jumping off point for a chapter or something like that.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Who knows, He's written forty something books.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Somewhere, so, you know. Kind of another topic that answers
the question we brought up Tara is about how does
Scotland apply in our marriage. It's it's the three magic words.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
I love the three magic words.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
Tell or what the three magic works?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Three words or that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Oh, I love that one validation.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
And the science shows that women in our heterosexual relationships,
women are much better at accepting influence from men than
the reverse. We have theories or hypotheses about why that's true,
but we don't even know exactly why it's true.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
What are your theories? What do you think?
Speaker 4 (22:07):
I think part of it is we just live in
a sexist culture where that men are taught to honor
other voices than the woman's.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
But you do you also think that it's just you know,
through throughout time. You know, I'm just talking about over
the thousands of years, the men would be out work,
you know in you know, back in the they'd be
in the Senate of the Romans, and the mothers and
the women are still back at home, so they have
(22:40):
more influence of what's going on. So they're bringing back
that information. Oh, this is what's going on in the world.
I'm telling you what it is.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
But you see, you just reinforced what I said that
you're just what culture. You just move sexist culture back
two thousand years. That it's been going on for a
long time.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Most of the stuff comes from a long time, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
Yes, right, it's so that's my that's a hypothesis, and
I think that's especially true about why it's so dangerous
because since women in our culture get get their opinions
stepped on so much more often than men do, that
when the husband steps on the wife's opinions, blows her off,
(23:27):
ignores her thoughts, it does a lot more damage than
if we're the receiver of that, because you know, we
don't get treated that way on a day by day,
moment by moment basis the way our women do. So
I think that's one of the reasons why the research
shows it is a real danger to relationships when men
(23:52):
reject women's influence. And that's where the magic words come in,
because that's the end to that. In my that's kind
of the way I framed it. I don't even think
that's out of a dotmin book. That's just my right
way of talking about it. Hey, that makes sense. But
(24:12):
when I say those words, Carrie's expressing something, and I
say those words, you've told me what happens to your
it makes mine.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
I can feel my heart rate go down. I can
feel just a calming, soothing experience all over my body
when he says it you know, like ah Siah relief.
You believe me.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
I can tell you a funny story about this. This
goes back to the breakfast time thing. What we used
to watch TV at breakfast. We don't do that anymore
of it. Back then we did. And a commercial came
on and we were sitting there eating our breakfast and
this commercial came on and they were selling mattresses and
the husband and the mattress was in the bedroom. In
(25:02):
this commercial, the wife wasn't there, and I think that
setup is kind of creepy, but anyway, that's what was there.
And what happened was the salesman smacked the mattress and
this cloud of dust and evil and stuff floats up
out of the mattress, and the husband says to the
to the salesman, oh, I guess my wife was right,
(25:26):
we do need a new mattress. Well that something rose
up in me at that moment, and I talked to
the television as if I were talking to an umpire
at Wrigley Field, which is where I grew up. You know,
they can't hear you, but you're gonna say it anyway.
Why in they hell didn't you listen to her? She's
(25:48):
the one sleeping on the mattress, not the guy with
the ball tap and the clipboard. But his opinion matters
more to you than hers. So in that little commercial,
we saw a you know, sort of a role play
of this whole rejecting influence dynamic. And I've tried to
(26:09):
be very conscious as a as a husband, and as
a father and grandfather. I try to be very conscious
and even as a coworker and a person in society,
to make that a goal. Am I accepting influence? Am
(26:31):
I listening to the other's point of view even if
I disagree. I don't have to agree with everything Carrie says,
because on rare occasions she has been known to be wrong.
It's not often, but she always makes sense even if
I disagree. So those are the three magic words that
(26:52):
I think we I think we pay attention to that.
You do it too, But I do think our experience
matches the science that it's just so much more important
for husbands to do that for wives, or men to
do that for their female partners. It's true in gay
(27:13):
and lesbian relationships too.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
It's interesting you you mentioned that because in there's a
book called Don't Split the difference by Chris Voss and
you don't know it, Okay. So so Chris Boss is
a he was a famous hostage negotiator and he you know,
he wrote a whole book about this whole thing and
(27:37):
he and he takes that that method and he takes
it to business. But so he goes through all of
his negotiations and one of the things that he said
was when you're in a conversation with with you know,
the hostage negotiating, negotiating is he would say something that
he would say, you don't want to say you're right.
(27:57):
You want you'd want to say that's right. And he
always made sure that whenever he was talking. And he
even talked about a situation where he was talking with
his son about how his son wasn't playing football well
and instead of if he would have just said, you know,
you're right, that wouldn't have worked. But if he says
that's right, that's right. And it was really sort of
(28:19):
that one little change, which is basically what you're saying,
is it's the acknowledgment, like because otherwise it seems like
you're just blowing off, you know. So I think that's
interesting that they're in hosted negotiation is really similar to
what you're talking about. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, and it's building trust, right, I mean that that's
the key of it, is that when he's trying to
build trust with the with the person he's negotiating with.
So this all goes back to how are you building
trust with your partner? And accepting influence is a huge
way to build trust with your partner.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Yes, you know the you know Goatman Gottman theory, uh
looks at relationships in three large you know, umbrella ways.
How does a couple manage conflict, accepting influence, avoiding for horsemen,
(29:15):
doing repairs? How do couples connect on a positive way,
you know, building love maps, sharing fondness and admiration, having
these little rituals of connection turning toward all that stuff.
Then there's this third area about building dreams together, creating
a meaningful life future. And you know, I think that
(29:41):
one of the really great things about our life together.
I mean, Kerry and I met at work, right right right?
You met me as your new incoming kind of boss.
Not yeah, I guess I would. You ran your own
counseling office, but I was running I was the overseer
(30:06):
for a bunch of counseling offices, which included yours when
I started that position, so I was like the clinical
director for a bunch of counseling office, including yours. So
that's how we met, and we knew each other as
co workers for almost two years before we ever started dating.
(30:29):
And we've been blessed to have a life where the
building shared meaning was almost built into the system learning
got the method together. I mean, we went to all
of our trainings together. We went to the Art and
Science of Love workshop as trainees, we went to experience
(30:52):
it together. Of course you do that together. So a
lot of the shared meaning of our life as been
our work and our association, affiliation and involvement with Godlin
Institute and Gotlin Method, so that creating shared meaning was
(31:12):
sort of built into our lives. It was kind of
handed to us, but it's huge. And now that we're
getting a little bit older, you know, here has significantly
changed color and talking about maybe we will retire someday,
(31:35):
you know, we're on a new conversation about what would
be meaningful, what would we want, where would we want
to be, how do we want to live that life?
As we transition from the life that we've been living
for the last thirty years or so, as you know,
working together so that piece, that shared meaning piece, has
(31:58):
been easy for us, and it is for all companies,
but it's important, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I think as I think about that this podcast that
the two of you do is a way is a
shared meaning piece for the two of you.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Right it is. Yes. Actually, that's part of why we
started the podcast together in twenty eighteen is at that
time our daughter was little and we were in different roles.
And when kids, as y'all know what the research shows
when kids are a little, marriage satisfaction takes a dip,
(32:36):
and we were in that dip, and I was trying
to figure out, like what how can he and I connect?
And I know at that time I had never I
was not into podcasts. I never listened to them. But
he was listening to podcasts all the time and talking
about them and stuff like that, and for years he
was like, Oh, you should do a podcast. She'd be
great at a podcast. But I don't like public speaking.
(32:57):
I get anxiety, performance anxiety and all this stuff, and
so I was really resistant to it for like probably
a full year of you saying that. But that was
the reason that we started the podcast because I was like,
you know what, this is a comfort zone for him
to connect on and maybe I'll like it, and I
and I did. He was he was right, So accepting influence.
(33:19):
But yeah, yeah, And what do y'all have any advice
for couples who are, you know, at whatever stage of
their life. It could be that they have little kids,
or maybe the kids have moved out of the house
and the kids being the third leg of their marriage
has shifted and now there's that's not there anymore to
figure out how to create shared meaning. I see that
(33:42):
as a as a major issue that people bring into
therapy a lot like I don't. I don't maybe divorces
on the table, and it's it's because of that lack
of shared meeting there and a lot of the times
it is because the kids have moved out in the
house and that was the shared meaning, which it's great
to have that, but I think we also need to
have more because that's transient.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Sure, So there's so many ideas. I mean, in some ways,
it's a ritual of connection, and there are lots of
ways that they can create rituals and find rituals. And
there may be some things that they might try that
they'll never try again, like taking a cooking class. You know,
(34:24):
maybe that's something that they hit upon that they really
enjoy doing together. Or maybe it's a dance class or
doing yoga together, or going on a hike together. So
they could try all kinds of things that maybe it's
a one and done, but maybe it's something that's pretty intriguing,
(34:44):
you know, taking some tennis lessons together. You know, we
need to have more get more fitness in our lives
and you know, be more active. And you know, so
tennis or pickleball or.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
That's not for you, don I'm I'm a I'm a
a very old school tennis player.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So the P word it's just wrong. It's wrong, that's wrong.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
What are they doing on my tennis courts?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Anarchists?
Speaker 3 (35:15):
But so there's lots of things, right that they could try.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
But you know, those things are are kind of pleasure based,
you know, how to have fun, and that's great. But
I think a lot of times the conversations couples need
to have can really start with more what's important to me? Yeah,
I had a professor my doctoral program. He used to
(35:41):
say it this way, and I kind of thought, well,
this is kind of a weird way of talking about it,
but in one way it makes sense. He used to
tell us, tell me what you hate? Hmm, what do
I hate? I hate abuse? You see, now I hate injustice. Okay,
(36:11):
now we've got Karen, what do you hate. I'm not
saying people should have the conversation that way, but it's
a way. It's kind of a backwards way of getting
into what do I what matters to me, what what
energizes me? What do I care about? And is there
a way that those feelings of justice or or you know,
(36:39):
protection from abuse, There a way we can be more
involved in those kinds of things that that that really
have have energy, that matter. So, you know, not everybody
has to be on some kind of idealistic, you know,
(37:02):
changed the world sort of mentality, but I think most
people have at least some of that in them. Voter registration, we're,
you know, in middle of an election season. You know,
I care about voter registration. I you know, for a while,
I'm not as involved now since we moved to Seattle,
(37:25):
But for a lot of years I was really closely
affiliated with the Cherokee tribe in Oklahoma. My father was Cherokee,
and I was on the board of directors for Children's
Home there and I'm still supporting them financially, but I'm
not involved in operationally anymore. But you know, and I
(37:50):
got Kerry involved in that, and she started caring about
it and discovered she's part Turkey too, so you know, uh, yeah,
there are blond hair Turkey. So so you know, those
those kind of things. I think to be okay with
(38:12):
discussing those, and it can be kind of vulnerable because
if I start talking to my partner about something that
is meaningful, that that maybe even chokes me up when
I think about it, and it feels disregarded or treated
(38:34):
as silly or dismissed by the partner or that that
can really feel bad. So, you know, successful couples learning
how to share those those inner dreams and them working
together to find the dream that they both can support,
I think that's a I think that's a real gift
(38:57):
that gotman science brings to the whole idea both of
what it means to be in a good relationship and
what it means to be a good Couple's therapists is
to help address that stuff with client. Not all about
you guys need to stop fighting, you know. I mean
a couple's therapy can be a lot more than that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Yeah, that's usually why they come. They do want to
stop fighting. Yeah. Well, and I think this all goes
back to what we were talking about earlier, which is
perspective taking. The more that people are able to do
that with each other, the more trust you can build
to be able to have these kind of conversations. It's
super vulnerable to come in to talk about something that's
(39:41):
important to you if you are afraid your partner is
not really going to hear you, if they don't, if
they don't also value the same thing.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
One thing we like to say is teamwork makes the
dream work.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Yeah yeah, yeah. For us, For example, Carrie is much more.
It has much more of a need about grandchildren to
be physically present and time with them. I love our grandchildren,
but I kind of grew up in a much more
(40:13):
kind of distant sort of style, so I don't have
to live as close to them as you do. But
here's where the shared dream comes in. As we're talking
about our future. You know, do I care enough about
her dream? You know, or we don't have to. We
can go visit we don't.
Speaker 5 (40:34):
You know.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
You know something Tara said a long time ago to
me that I thought a knife of it to other
people as well, is if it's important to you, it's
important to me. Just that simple important to you, it's
important to me, and even to business partners or whatever.
It didn't matter. I was like, Okay, you know this
(40:59):
is what you want. I mean, well let's go do it.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Yeah. Yeah. And it does go back to a lot
of you know, the relationship science that start at fifty
some years ago now about why are some couples so
good at connecting and some aren't. And the ones who
are good at connecting know how to share visions and
dreams and meaning and try to create a meaningful life.
(41:27):
That's just that's a characteristic. That's what they do. And
other couples ignore that, and it's detrimental when they do,
because it is such an important part of life.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Oh yeah, it's it's the most important part of life.
I mean, Victor Frankel said it, right.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Do you think that's a taught thing or is it
something that you just inherently have. I mean, you can
be a little bit of both. You know, obviously you
can massage it, but is it Do you think that anybody,
if they were taught, it's just a matter of just
not being taught.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Taught depends on what you mean by taught.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I think you just like seeing examples. You're growing up
in it, you know, just.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
I think it makes it easier to grab a hold
of ideas like that when that was part of your
experience and that's the way you were trained. But there
are other ways to learn it, you know. And you know,
people learn a lot from being close to someone and
(42:30):
learning to value what they value. You know, you agree
with that.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I do. I'm thinking in some ways, part of it
has to do with empathy. Yeah, And so as you're
asking that question, I immediately jumped to empathy and is
that something that can be taught? And I think that
(42:58):
in some ways it can talk, but there has to
be some innate kind of emotion and emotional ability to
connect emotionally for that to even take hold, right.
Speaker 4 (43:16):
So, but I think that most people can.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
I think I think those for whom empathy is a
lost skill is an impossible skill. Yeah, there are certainly
reasons for that, some of them even neurological. But for
the most of us, I think it's it's a possible
skill and maybe can be honed if we if we try.
(43:43):
One of the best ways to hone it is to experience.
That's right, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, I had something that happened to me once when
where I was so I was, I grew up racing cars.
So and I had a sponsor of mine who went
to one of the heat He only went to one race,
Like he sponsored me for years. He only went to
one race. And I mean I'm like thirty five years
old at the time, and I did this race, and
(44:11):
after it was over, I mean it was like really difficult.
It was like really hard, like it's super hot. It
was hot, didn't have all this stuff. It was way
out of you know, drivers would passed out and had
to go to the hospital. It was one of those
kind of things. And so I finished the race and
I was just like, you know, I did all right.
I mean I think I finished top ten, which was
(44:33):
great first time me that so and I sort of
was just sort of sitting there and he just came
over and he goes, man, I'm proud of you. It
was just that I'm proud of you. And I was like,
if that it had never happened, like those words would
never have come from anybody else. And it wasn't that
he was like overly like oh my gosh, just because
(44:55):
it came from him, you know, It wasn't anything like that.
It was just like wow, And it's so resonated with
me that I went, I'm going to do that more.
And I'll like, so if a friend of mine wins
a race out of the blue, I'll just send them
a text or something and say, hey, man, I'm really
proud of you. A great job. I mean, just that alone,
and they and people will just they just were like, wow,
(45:18):
thank you, that's really cool of you.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
You know, Jeff, what you're talking about is something I
think that it's really important, and that is to feel
like you're seen, right, that somebody sees you and is
aware of all of the effort that you have given
it right, and that being seen and validated is so
(45:44):
important for all of us.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Yeah, and I also think I mean could, But what
I also think it does is there's it's so easy
to be jealous of their success if somebody had it
when it's you know, when you're you're direct competitive, Like
I raced against these guys and I'll be like, wow,
that's amazing you won Lamont. I mean like so, but
(46:12):
the really that so proud of you, Just that alone
made such a it's it's really made a big difference.
Speaker 4 (46:19):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
Kind of really resonated inside of inside of you. Right,
you could be proud of yourself.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Too, exactly.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
Yeah, and within the marital bond. I don't think there's
much more important than that kind of admiration, right that
that Carrie knows that I am in awe of her
and I am. I watched her do this doctorate that
she did that I would never try to do it again.
(46:51):
I mean I did one when I was a kid,
but yeah, it was awesome.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Yeah, so uh.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Yeah, that can really I mean having somebody have your
back and be at your side like that and express
that can. I mean that just is a superpower that
we carry with us all day long. It's like, no
matter how hard the day is, you're going to come
home to somebody who loves you and thinks you're awesome.
And it's not just your dog, it's your partner too.
Speaker 4 (47:22):
Yeah, I just don't jump up.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, you don't just like lay on the floor and
sure or your belly.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
That's there may be some but there may be some
begging going on.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
I didn't say, don't jump up on her.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Sometimes you do lay on the floor your belly Okay,
well okay, I mean what do y'all do in your
own bedrooms? Up to you? Yeah, well, y'all. It has
just been such an honor to have you on the podcast.
Thank you so much for your time today. And I
did want to ask you are you still Are both
of you still in private practice where people could see you,
(48:00):
because I imagine after hearing the both of you today,
they're going to be people who want to be like
I want to see them. How do I find them?
How would they find you?
Speaker 3 (48:09):
We are both still seeing couples. I see couples through
the Gotman Love Lab, so they would have to be uh.
They would go through the lab and I would assess
them and then I do what's called marathon therapy, which
Don does as well. So it's three days of intense therapy,
(48:30):
three six hour days where you go through and work
on some really deep issues.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Someone if they went to gotlan dot com, our basic website,
there's a find a therapists link through there. We're both
on that our names will pop up. They can always
find us that way. All of our scheduling is done
by by our manager or whose name is Heidi, so
(49:02):
it's just Heidi at gotman dot com. Heidi schedules everything
for us. She also works some for the institute, so
she's got an email with them. Heidi at gotman dot
com is the easiest way to get started, because if
you emailed one of us directly, we're just going forwarded
to Heidi anyway. So because she contacts people and she
(49:25):
knows our schedule better than we do, so thank you
for asking that. But yeah, gotman dot com you can
find us that way. You can Heidi at gotman dot com.
You can find us that way, okay.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
And who wouldn't want to spend eighteen hours with one
one of you or both of you? Do you do
it together or or do you do that?
Speaker 4 (49:43):
So?
Speaker 3 (49:43):
Really so most of the time we do it individually,
but there are times when people hire both of us
at the same time.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Part of that's a cost thing. If people could when
people really have resources and say, hey, we want to
get the most out of this, we can, they'll hire
both of us, but that you know, that's costly, you know,
double surprise. But for some people that's on an issue.
But for those that it is, we mostly don't do that.
(50:11):
We see our couples individually, but yeah, we that's the
majority of still what we do, uh, is our private practice.
Carrie runs the research department. I do the clinical director job.
But yeah, we're private practitioners primarily.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Okay, well, thank you so much again, this was fantastic,
great conversation. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
Well, take care
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