Janelle Dawsey - Healing After Heartbreak

https://www.janelledawsey.com/book

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's get started. Hi, and welcome to make more Love
not War. This is Tara Harrison, licensed professional counselor and
relationship expert.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is her husband, Jeff Harrison, of no qualifications whatsoever,
just a normal dude.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hi, and welcome to make more Love not War. Today's
topic is divorce and we have Janelle Dossey, licensed marriage
and Family therapists with us today. And she's also the
author of a very helpful book that I just finished reading,
Healing after Heartbreak, A Guide to Emotional Restoration and Renewal.
So welcome to the show, Janelle.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
Thank you for having me Tara and Jeff.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yes, and Jeff, that's correct, easier too, That's right, you
can hear. So what inspired urge you to write this book?
And then of course we'll get into the meet for
our listeners.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Gotcha, gotcha? Okay, So what inspired me to write this
book was so I am the owner of a practice
call for the Love Counseling and Consulting, and as I
was on my journey of creating this practice, I was
trying to figure out where should I start when it

(01:27):
comes to the journey of love for people? Because I
do a lot of couples counseling, and so I thought
to myself, Okay, well maybe I can dive into the
world of matchmaking and day coaching. So I went and
got when it started working on becoming a matchmaker and
working on my day coaching program and all of these things,

(01:51):
and there's actually a certification for matchmaking. People are like, really,
there's you can get certified to do that, and I'm like, yeah,
they have a program out there. So during this time
when I was getting my feet wet within the date
coaching world, I realized that people are actually heartbroken and
that's where I need to start, because it's very hard

(02:12):
to coach people when they are still dealing with a
lot of trauma. So I realized that's actually what's at
the beginning. That's the first step, which is healing people's heartbreak.
Then it clicked for me too, because I myself have
gone through divorce that the journey that I went through
to heal and all of that. I was like, Okay,

(02:34):
I can put my personal experience and put it together
with my professional experience, and so that is what prompted
me to write the book to help people heal after heartbreak.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Oh, so were you when you were doing the dating coaching,
Were you finding that a lot of people were trying
to jump into dating too soon after heartbreak? And so
that's where you were finding people who hadn't healed or
was it a variety or what were you seeing there?

Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah, it was a combination of heartbreaks from a while ago,
you know, not having process and dealt with that. So
they're bringing trauma into the way that they are perceiving
their dating lives. People, like you said, trying to jump
too quickly into dating after they've gone through a breakup

(03:25):
or a divorce and you know, just trying to move
on with their lives, which I totally understand, but because
they haven't gone through the healing process of it again
carrying over that baggage into the new relationship, some of
the mindset surrounding dating and relationships was a bit skewed

(03:46):
because of what they had gone through in their past relationship. So, yep,
that's what I was noticing.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Do you have an example of that, like what was happening?

Speaker 3 (03:56):
Sure? So let's say, for example, if uh I had
one girl she's going into dating and because her ex
used to not really be supportive or show up for her,

(04:19):
the moment that she's dating a new guy who may
have to cancel on her because of personal reasons. The
automatic thought is he's not supportive of me, and so
I don't want anything to do with him, and it's like, WHOA, well,
don't jump the gun there, you know, let's let's talk
this through. And so you end up carrying some of
that baggage. Or if you had a partner who lied

(04:40):
to you. Often, you know, if somebody tells you, well,
I have to do this instead, then the anxiety of
is this the truth or is you know, is this
this a lie? And so then you may start to
accuse the person of you know, not being honest with you,
and then they're confused because it's like, I didn't do anything.
And so a lot of times people will attach some

(05:03):
of their past trauma onto the new partner and it
can create issues in dating.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
And how do you get past that.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
So that's where therapy comes in to work through that
and attach some of those beliefs to the right person
versus you know, all men are like this, So not
overgeneralizing certain things and just attaching that to your ex
not to again all people, or trying to or or

(05:33):
moving into the dating space with that len, that toxic
lens of the trauma that you went through. So it's
really just helping with shifting mindsets and healing some of
the traumas that they went through in the past.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, So being able to realize that you're making an interpretation,
to even realize that you're making an interpretation, right, like,
this is an interpretation of what's going on in this situation.
It may not actually be true.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
It's the first step, yep, yep. Because some people they
may have anxieties when they're dating, and so then they
end up doing some self di stabtaging behaviors because you know,
I'm super anxious that what if this doesn't work out?
So it's like working through anxiety and helping them understand
that this is anxiety and this is how you work
through anxiety and you know, things like that. So that's

(06:28):
and that's why I said the beginning is actually healing
the heartbreak, because your lens when it comes to dating
is just completely skewed and it can end up affecting
the outcome of the new relationship and it can go
downhill very quickly because of how you are perceiving this
particular person who again may not have done anything that

(06:50):
you're that you're accusing them of doing.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
So basically what you're trying to say is you just
have to get a clean slate. Yeah, just trying to
clean slate.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yes, yes, yes you can. You can get a clean slate.
And it's also about understanding, you know, what some of
those traumas are, and then communicating that to the new person.
So if you understand yourself, then it's easier when you're
in the when you are dating, because you can communicate
and say, you know, some of these things, I realize,

(07:22):
you know, maybe my own issue that I'm projecting onto you.
So it's not it's it's somewhat of a clean slate.
But in reality, you can't entirely have a clean slate
because you have to be aware of what those triggers
are still and we can't ignore you know what that is.
But if you have an understanding of what your triggers are,

(07:45):
and you learn to communicate what those triggers are, and
you learn to work through those things without again putting
it on the other person, and also identifying some of
the toxic patterns that you may also be repeating, because
a lot of times people end up dating this thing
person with the different face, so you stand for yourself. Okay,
these are some of them. I'm noticing these are my

(08:06):
patterns when it comes to dating, and I'm not dating
the right type of person. And again that goes to
the trauma that you've dealt with in your past. Why
you continue to repeat those same patterns.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, yeah, and that makes that makes sense to recognize
it realistically that some of these things may be about relationships,
but they may be about like family of origin stuff
or like really they may go really deep and those
things may just be there. And while there are certain

(08:39):
things that can heal, some other things are just there
and you recognize, Okay, that's that's my thing, and when
the situation comes up, I have to talk myself through
that and I'm not I don't want to get too
far into what you've already written in the book and
jump ahead, but I think self compassion is key. But
we'll talk about that. I know that's one of your
points that you make, But so I do want to

(09:00):
bring up that Janelle has a very helpful acronym and
the Healing After Heartbreak book that I think just really
guides somebody through the whole process of healing because the
question is like, where do I even start. It feels
really overwhelming because you're dealing with the heartbreak and all
the logistics. If there's kids involved, there's family, and everybody
has their opinions and all of that, and so it's

(09:23):
hard to know even where to start. But you guide
us through. So let's talk about your acronym.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
Okay, So the acronym, I've made it very simple. We
use the word divorce, and the D stands for detach,
the I stands for introspect, the V stands for validation,
the O stands for open up, the R stands for rebuild,

(09:50):
the C stands for closure, and E is in power. So,
like you said, it really is something that is walking
you through the process of divorce, with each letter representing
you know the step to take. So in the detachment phase,
which is probably one of the most difficult phases, because

(10:15):
you are completely detaching from the person that you've been
with for however long, you guys have built a life together,
like you said, you may have kids together, you guys
live together like friends and family. You guys have made together,
and so to be able to detach from that is
very challenging, and so you want to detach, not only physically,

(10:42):
but also emotionally. For some people, the physical attachment can
be easy because it's depending on the reasons why you
decided to end. Some people are like I just got to,
you know, get away, so that may be easy. But
for some people that can be challenging too, Like I
have a couple now they're trying to figure out, okay,

(11:03):
we still have kids together, like should we stay in
the same house for the sake of the kids and
and that, And I'm like, I understand that completely, but
at some point it becomes hard because of the emotion
because if I start to see you kind of living
more independently, then you know, that could trigger some emotions,
and so sometimes it is better to it is best

(11:27):
to physically separate because it is kind of like out
of side, out of mind, right, I'm not having to
deal with that the emotionals that can come up as
we're going through the divorce process. But then you have
to grieve the relationship also, and so if you're constantly
seeing this person, it's hard to like grieve and I

(11:47):
still have to see this person. So I'm like, physical
detachment is it's like it's key, and then the emotional
detachment is something to also, of course work through, and
you have to grieve and the stages of grief is
the same thing when it comes to divorce. But the
challenging part is that that person still is very much
here and alive, which is a little bit different from

(12:09):
when you're grieving through when someone passes away. So that's
the I guess the gist of the detachment phase is
detaching physically, emotionally, financially and working through that. So I'll

(12:29):
you know, leave, leave with that and you know, have
you guys come in and we'll move on to the
next one when you're ready.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Okay, Well, so social media, right, when everybody's got all
their profiles and stuff like that, what do you recommend
people do with their all they're connected to their We're
spider webbed in so many different ways now, right, It's
not just like you can move out and just only
talk about the kids. Now, it's like all of the

(12:55):
ig profile and this and that, Like, what do you
recommend to people with their social media?

Speaker 3 (13:01):
Yeah, so, like you said, that part is also very challenging.
You guys again share the same friends and you know
what if you do what if you guys have profile
a profile together, you know, like how do we go
about that? And it would just be separating that and
using your own discretion in terms of like do I

(13:22):
want to see this person's profile pop up, you know
on my page? Do I need to maybe mute them
for a bit, or you know, or maybe is it
a conversation of what do we do? Do we you know,
stop being friends and we unfriend each other, and sometimes
that is best. Sometimes people are able to still maintain

(13:44):
you know, friends being saying friends with their excell on
social media, but it's it's it's kind of like you
figuring out where you are. Some people are like I
can't stand to see this person. Understandable, But the biggest
thing is what I call reattachment relapse, where like if
you are let's say you guys are in separate spaces,

(14:07):
and then you start to think, I miss this person.
Yeah me, you know, let me text them real quick,
you know, just to tell them I miss them, or
you know, I miss the comfort of this person, or
I miss the family aspect of this person, and so
it's it's easy to relapse and you know, reattach to

(14:28):
that person again but it's important to try your best
to work through those feelings so you don't end up
reattaching into a situation that you know is best to
not be in. So when it comes to social media,
it's one of those things where do I think I
can handle being friends with this person, or do I
get tempted to like DM them, or whenever I see

(14:52):
their picture pop up on my on my timeline, does it,
you know, anger me. Maybe I shouldn't have that person
if it's causing these reactions. But if I've you know,
resolved within myself and I'm okay and I can see them,
if you want to stay friends with them, you can.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, yeah, So it requires a lot of introspection and
trying to figure out, you know, what is best for me.
There's no blake and answer for everybody, right, Like we'd
all wish we could just have somebody tell us every
step to do, but then you wouldn't know yourself, and
that's part of the process.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Exactly, exactly, yep, m Or just get.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Off social media and go for a walk.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Or do something else, right, stop stalking them on Instagram?
You know you know what they had for.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
You can't exactly, but yes, do not stalk your ex
social media.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
You don't, don't go slash their tires.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, don't listen to any country songs to talk about
that stuff or anything. Just don't do it.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Jewel, that was always my breakup music. So I'm aging myself,
but it was always Jewel back in the day.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, Because I mean, like, like you were talking about,
those feelings of longing and loneliness are sure to come up,
and then you start thinking, what was I really thinking
when I made that decision and start to doubt yourself.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
Right exactly exactly. And so when those feelings come up
of like doubt, of course you do, you start to question,
like you said, am I making the best decision? Or
maybe you know, maybe it was a bit impulsive, or
maybe it's not that bad or maybe you know. I've
had some people say, well, you know, I know this
animal right getting back to the dating feel like, I

(16:43):
don't know how they are, like, but I know this one.
So I'm more comfortable just sticking with this animal versus
you know. It's that fear of like jumping back out
there and being single again. It is scary, especially again
depending on how long you've been married or been in
a relationship. Yeah, being single again and being on your own.

(17:03):
It's like, WHOA, I don't know what to expect.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, yes, so what's the next step then? Okay, so
detached that that one seems like that one seems like detached.
That one seems like it's going to be ongoing. Actually,
is what I was going to say. Jeff just likes
to nail it right, So, but yeah, I think it is.

(17:27):
I mean, would it be realistic to expect you're going
to have to work continue to work on detaching or
these are kind of stages that you can go back
and forth in.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Right, Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not like okay, okay,
I finally detached, Now I can move on to the
next one. Yeah, it is. It's going to be constant,
similar to the stages of brief how you know, moment
you may be in the denial phase and then you
may slip over to anger, and then you're in the
bargaining like it's still like a you know, you can

(17:56):
go in and out of the different stages. So yes,
the next one is introspect. So this one is really
looking inWORD at self and really getting to an understanding
of who you are and you can also kind of
think of it as how did how did we get here?
And how did I get here? Like how did this happen?

(18:18):
But it requires a lot of introspection and working through
maybe some of the things in the relationship that you
can't believe, like I can't believe I allowed this, or
you know, I really let U let a huge part
of who I am, my identity go in this relationship
and how did this happen? And understanding a lot about

(18:40):
self in this base.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, and what if you don't have an identity outside
of the relationship and family, because that can happen where
you realize I don't even know who I am because
who I was when we started dating or got married.
Maybe if this is a really long term relationship, maybe
you're in your twenties and now you're in your fifties
or something like that, or and you know your your

(19:05):
identity would have changed so many times, but your identity
has been dad and wife for mom and wife for
you know all dad, you know what I'm saying. I
use myself there. But anyway, you had all these identities
that are related to your relationship and family. So how
how does somebody figure out who they are? Right, really

(19:26):
jarring and would again make you want to run right
back to the relationship.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
Right, It's just easier that way.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, I know who I am when I'm with you,
even if I'm not happy, but I can't I can't
take the the discomfort.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yes, exactly. And so it is it is very challenging
because of like you said, who am I? What is
my identity? And this is this is that phase to
help you kind of work towards changing some of those
beliefs about yourself and also some of the thoughts that
you may have about yourself, because you know how we

(20:04):
define divorce in the society as being a failure. So
you know, what do I think about myself? Now? You know,
am I Have I failed? Or am I a failure?
Am I damaged goods? Or do people like me?

Speaker 1 (20:20):
Like?

Speaker 3 (20:20):
All those things start to come up, Those thoughts start
to come up. You know, have I am I giving
up on my kids? You know, all of those things
make those thoughts may start to come up. And so
it's about working through those those negative thoughts because it's
very easy to slip into a possible depression because of
because you're you know, because of divorce, or a breakup.

(20:41):
A lot of people do. And so, like you said,
I've gotta I've got to figure me out again. But
I'm having all of these negative thoughts, and I don't
want to necessarily walk around life believing that I am
now damaged good to nobody is ever gonna love me again.
You don't want to do that. So that's what this

(21:02):
phase is really about, just that that inner work understanding again,
Who am I? Do? I believe these thoughts? What are
these emotions that I'm feeling? How do I work through that?
How do I process that?

Speaker 1 (21:15):
So that this is a good time to get into
therapy you haven't already already?

Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah, A lot of people do not do that because
the focus is so much on let me just again
do the detachment. Let me just get the lawyer. We
can you know, separate detached in that way and completely
forget about that that inner work. And so this is
the piece where, like I said, when it came to dating,
I'm like, yeah, you guys haven't worked through a lot

(21:42):
of this stuff.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, absolutely, And how do you regulate yourself when you've
been regulating with somebody else? I mean, so that that's
really shocking to the nervous system, absolutely, which is why
people keep jumping back.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, right, right, Who do I call when you know
I'm feeling down? It used to be my partner, and
now I don't. I don't. I don't have anybody to call.
Do I want to call my friends? But I don't
want to put too much on my friends, you know?
Do I want to call my parents? But you know,
it's it's, it's it's It could be challenging because that

(22:18):
your go to person is no longer your go to
person to talk to us exactly.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah. This reminds me of the quote that you have
to be one hundred percent person to be fifty percent
of a partnership.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
Yeah, so this is.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
Sort of that, like, Okay, you've detached, now you need
to get yourself back to one hundred percent before you
can be fifty percent of a partnership.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yep, that is correct, That is correct, And unfortunately a
lot of people do not get back to that hundred percent. Yeah,
and then they jump back into dating.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
You just go all Jerry maguire, you complete me rather
than being complete nor exactly. Yeah, and I understand that poll.
I mean, Jeff and I started dating after I got
out of a long term toxic relationship. I mean, I
tried to give it a little bit of space, but
he was so compelling. But so basically I had to
do the work. We both had to do the work

(23:09):
together around healing from our other relationships. And it does
it is hard on a relationship to do that. It
can be done. But ideally, if I would have gone back,
I would have loved to have had that time to heal.
So I didn't bring that stuff into this relationship, right, Jeff.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
You And as she's saying this, I'm I can just
envision all my exents are going to the same thing.
Did I make the right toy? Is he? I? Probably should?
I mean, so I never thought about you just said
that that that's probably what they're doing.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
They're listening right now thinking that they're like, Wow, Tara's
really lucky. It's not a joke.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
That's what I'm here, That's what I'm That's what I'm
getting out of this right.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
Now, right right right?

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Okay, So moving on, So what what about Okay, let's
go to V. Now what does V stand for?

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Okay? So validation? So some of the feelings that may
come up and what people a lot of times do
with with just feelings. In generals, we try to push
to side, we try to reject it. We don't want
to feel things. But it's important that you feel and

(24:22):
understand those feelings. And because you're kind of because you're
going through this process alone, like we just said, like
don't want to call the X. I don't want to
call friends and put all on them, don't want to
you know, call parents. So I have to work on
that validation piece myself and validate my own self. And so,

(24:43):
like I put in the book, you know what the
difference between you know, what validation is and what it
is in because sometimes we may try to validate some
of our toxicity.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
But I like that part. Let's let's go into that
a little bit if you will.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
Okay, So when you are validating yourself, what it is
is you're acknowledging Okay, this is the emotion that I feel.
You're not trying to judge yourself for having the feeling,
but you want to understand it. And that's the biggest
thing is Okay, well, where where is this feeling coming from?

(25:17):
And let me take some time to get to the
core of that emotion. Okay. So and It's interesting because
as if you peel back the layers, as you had
said earlier, care about like some childhood stuff might start
to come up. So like that feeling of loneliness, because
that one's just an easy emotion to like talk about

(25:38):
with divorce. You know, it's understandable to feel lonely during
this time, right, but let me peel back some of
those layers and really understand you know, where this loneliness
may derived from. And you know, is it also something
from my childhood that I haven't worked through because now

(25:59):
I'm membring you know, all of those nights when mom
was working late and I really wanted her to put
me to bed, and I missed, you know a lot
of those moments, and so that's what's maybe being triggered.
Is Okay, I'm really seeking maybe connection, and so you know,
maybe during this time I can I can call a

(26:20):
friend over and just have them come over. Let's drink
some wine for a moment. We don't have to talk
about the divorce or anything. But I just need, you know,
a love of connection because that's what I'm really missing.
Or if it is anger, okay, let's get to the
root of that anger. Okay, well this person for years,
you know, I uh was gas lit in this relationship,

(26:41):
and now I'm realizing, like I was being gaslet this
entire time, but I wanted to believe my spouse. And
so you're really just getting to understand what the emotion
is versus acting out on that emotion. So because I'm angry,
now I'm gonna slash your tires. No no no no
no no. Now it to feel that way and react

(27:03):
that way, right, And it's like no, no, no, no, no no no.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Because I'm lonely, I'm calling you at two thirty in
the morning. No no, no.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
No no no no no no no no. Right. So it's
not to you know, excuse you know, any negative behaviors.
That's not what validation is, because that's what a lot
of people will try to do is because I felt
this way, I reacted this way. It was it was
a negative no no no, no no no.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
I mean literally what you're talking about here is like
almost country songs. I'm heartbroke, So I'm gonna go get drink.
I'm gonna drink. I'm drinking away my problems. The whiskey's
not working anymore. It's like that's like literally fifty percent
of every country song.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
What you just said exactly exactly, Like it goes back
to your point, do not take advice from country music, Yeah,
do do that exactly.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
It's all bad.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
It's all bad, right, right, right. Do not do what
Carrie Underwood did, even though I love that song.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yes, or what the he Chicks did to poor Earl,
you know.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
I mean, but that's why those.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
So I think he deserved it. But that's another one.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
But that's I think that's why those songs work. I mean,
it's living vicariously like you want, like you know, you
shouldn't do it, but it's fun to hear it.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
Like and imagine, right, and imagine it. We can stay there, right.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, right, So that that's a good point that you
bring up, though, Like you're feeling rage, you're feeling lonely,
and it's okay to fantasize about doing these things that
might be a way to release those urges that you have,
which are normal, Like it's normal to be to feel
rage and want to just like go bash the person
in the head. But maybe you can visualize it and

(28:40):
you don't actually have to go do it or call
the person the middld the night for a booty call
or whatever.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Which is why Carrie underwould probably is super calm because
she got to get it out of the system, put
it down and write it. And you know, like you've
said this about having like hard rocker punk dudes that
you knew when you were younger that they were like
the calmest people because they got it all out whenever.
And and I was a professional race car driver and

(29:07):
I did that for years, and so I don't drive
hard or crazy on the road because it just seems
stupid because it's like I can do it in the
real environment. So this is just different. So it's kind of.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
Interesting, yep, exactly.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, or maybe the you know, the rage rooms. This
is another good outlet. So recognizing, validating your feeling and
then trying to find an approval outlet for it, yeah exactly, which.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Is why some people they use exercise for that too,
like I'm going to run it off or I'm gonna
yeah it's so it's it's validated and find a healthy
way to.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
The way to get that emotion out. Interesting mm hmm exactly.
All right, So the next one is open up, and
so that one I think that's a little bit more about,
you know, going to therapy and that one to just
have again, that outlet that you were able to just
open up how you feel and things like that. Of

(30:09):
course opening up to your friends. I'll say for me
personally going through my divorce, I actually took some time
for myself to really figure out what it was that
I wanted. So considering the introspective piece of it, I
didn't want too many outside influences telling me that they

(30:30):
think what they think is best for me. So before
I decided to open up and talk to more of
my friends that I had the time, I had spoken
to two of my closest friends. I didn't even talk
to my parents about it. I already knew what they
were likely going to say, and I wanted to work

(30:52):
my through my own process before opening up and sharing,
because I didn't want to be influenced by anybody else's thoughts.
And so of course when I did open up and
start telling people, then it became are you sure that's
what you want to do. By that time, I was
so sure and I was able to stand firm and
what it was that I wanted to do without having
the influence the outside influence of other people. So and

(31:14):
at that point in terms of opening up, when you
have been able to, you know, validate your own self
and do this introspection, it just makes you a little
bit stronger when outside outside of people who may be
questioning are you sure this is what you want to
do or you know, they add that pressure of well,

(31:36):
you know, it's going to be harder for you once
you once you become a single parent, for example, and
things like that, and so you do all the work
and then once you start really opening up to people
a little bit more, you're so much you're so much
more grounded in what it is that and what it
is that you want and who you are.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
So that's yeah, that makes sense because all so another
layer of it is being able to know that you're
in a in a grounded enough place to handle other
people's feelings like for instance, your parents, right of course
they would have emotions about it because your your partner

(32:16):
was a part of the family and things like that.
So knowing that you know you're you're going to tell them,
they're going to have input, but they're also going to
have emotions. And if you don't even know how you feel,
you can't you You can't, You can't hold any space
for their feelings because you just need to be dealing
with yours right now.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
Exactly yep mm hmmm hmmm. Because it's it's once you
start to bring other people into that world, like you said,
their their feelings start to come into play, and now
you're trying to, like you said, manage how they feel.
And then you get you could possibly get influenced, and
then again those thoughts of I'm making a bad decision
come into place. But if you've already resolved within yourself

(32:56):
what your decision is and you're okay and grounded and
firming it, then once they start to question you and
your decision making, you can say, no, this is what
I've decided. Ultimately, so yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
And literally every single thing that you've talked about so far,
they would apply not just to relationships, they would apply
to if you're making a change and say a business change,
or you're let's say you were you were in college
and you want to drop out of college, Well, you
got to detach from that. You got to do the
introspect to figure out you that you need to validate

(33:32):
that that's the right decision and then you don't want
to bring this up to You've got it solid that. No,
I'm getting out of this and I'm going to go
join the circus. And that's just the way it is.
And I've already figured it out. I've been juggling for
twenty years. I got it nailed. It would be something
like that. It would flow exactly the same. All that
you've talked about so far would work for that too.

(33:55):
Anything that you're making changes exactly.

Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yep, yep, bye, completely agree with that.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
But like, yes, this is a good tool, right yeah.
So okay, So then so you've you've opened up your
You've you've gone through the different stages of opening up
to who you're opening up to and then widening that
circle of support, and so what what do you do

(34:22):
after opening up?

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Rebuild?

Speaker 2 (34:26):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (34:26):
So that's I mean, in so many ways, this entire
thing is about rebuilding who you are. But I want
to have a specific section specifically about that rebuilding process, because,
like you had mentioned earlier about the identity of who
you are, who am I without this person? Now I'm
now I'm really stepping into who I am without this person?

(34:49):
Ok So, what are my interests? Like what do I
like to do? Because I completely forgot what I like
to do because in this relationship maybe I just didn't
get a chance to or didn't even think about it
have the space to do it. So now I'm really considering, Okay,
what do I like to do? What can I do?
You know for me when after my divorce and trying

(35:13):
to figure out the whole cole parenting thing, and then
there were days she's with her dad and I'm like,
oh my god, like it's just me. Then I was like,
you know what this actually I can take some time
to really like focus on me during these days, which
when I was married there were no days.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Off, you know.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
So now I'm like, okay, you know this. It was
it was some adjusting to get used to, but like
on those days off, I'm like, Okay, I can actually
not be mom full time. I can watch the shows
that I want, and I can leave the house when
I want and not you know, so I'm able to

(35:54):
You're able to really get back to you and learn
more about yourself and do those coping skills that we
talked about before, and engage in hobbies that you never
had considered before because you were married and so that's
really what this rebuilding process is. And also deciding what
I want my future to look like, even my home,

(36:16):
my new home, because you know, when you're married, you
have to think about, Okay, how does how does this?
What will my partner say about this painting or the
you know I can get Now I can have my
pink my pink living room that I want. You know,
I just wanted it, you know, but I couldn't have
that when I was married my husband be like now,
but now I can do that. So it's like really
like thinking about or rebuilding that identity of who I

(36:40):
really am and the things that I want and really
is just about be at this point. So that's what
that that section is about.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Okay, yeah, yeah, So a lot of taking just taking
the time again thinking of coping mechanisms. Right, so like this,
if not re building, would be doing all the negative
coping mechanisms, just drinking, watching like way too much TV,
eating all of the ice cream, like you know that
those things happen and during the heartbreak, but it's really

(37:12):
moving past those negative, not helpful coping mechanisms and being
like I'm gonna try sand volleyball or I'm gonna get
out and you know, take walks and join those people
I see walking in my neighborhood, or I'm gonna get
a dog. I don't know if that's maybe, I don't know,
but but just trying to figure out who you are

(37:35):
and what you like and making the effort, which can
be really hard if you're struggling with some depression related
to the end of the relationship too, But it's kind
of one of those things that the more you do it,
the better you get.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Mmmmm hmm exactly exactly. Yep. So the next one is closure.
So I know for a lot of people that's like
one of the things that you know, I just want close. Sure,
hear that all the time, but I.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
Don't want to have to do anything. I just want
to happen.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Well, the ideal, off course, would be to have closure
with the partner, but that's it seems like that's pretty
rare to get the ideal closure.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah, exactly exactly, So that a lot of people that's
what they, like you said, they want that, they want
to have that final conversation. But the likelihood of that
happening again ideal, it could happen, but realistically speaking, you're
gonna have to do that with within yourself. Resolve that
within yourself. And you know, for some people it might
be even just writing a letter, just kind of getting

(38:35):
out those feelings that you just keep for yourself, not
to necessarily give to the other person because they're not
going through this process. You know, if you even try
to talk to them, they may not be in a
space to even have that conversation in a productive way.
So it is being able to provide that closure within yourself.
I think in the book I have it labeled as

(38:56):
unilateral closure bilateral quotes. Sure, so it's I have to
figure out how do I kind of put the bowl
type of brapast president up, put a bowl on it
and just you know, feel okay with how things are
and accept this is this is where my life is
now and I'm okay with it.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Is this the stage where you cut the X out
of every picture that's in the house. Is this that stage?

Speaker 3 (39:25):
It's like where, okay, well the relationship is done.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
I do notice when I do notice when we do
family pictures with her family that I'm always on the
end that could just be easily folded. She's prepared, Like,
wait a second, why am I always on the end, right, right, But.

Speaker 3 (39:47):
Yeah, it is that, you know, just kind of you know,
wrapping things up, resolving things a thing yourself.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Yeah. And the thing I hear the most, and I'm
sure you do too, is that the and I completely
understand this feeling, is that with the desiring the bilateral
closure of the person will say I just want them
to take responsibility. Yeah, right, And a lot of people
just don't get to that point to take responsibility for
what they've contributed to the end of the relationship. And

(40:14):
so while that could provide peace, it's really rare to
fully get that from your partner. And all we can
take is our own responsibility, which is really hard. And
that's how I think where that you talk about the
self compassion in the book, and you reference Kristin Neff,
who I love, so you're clearly a fan of her too,

(40:35):
But leaning into that compassion for yourself I think is key.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
For them exactly. Yes, So, like you said, having that
conversation and them taking responsibility again, you just have to
accept that's just who that person is. Unfortunately the relationship
ended this way, but you may never get that apology

(41:04):
that you're seeking ever, or if you do get it.
It could be years down the row because again, that
person if they're not going through their own process and
they're just moving on seemingly with life, and then one
day maybe they wake up and realize, Okay, no, I
really screwed all of this over and that may come
years down the road. So you can't hold on to that,

(41:26):
you know, that hope that that person will come around
and apology. You have to just say, you know what
it is, what it is, and that's who they are,
and I'm okay with it. But if you hold on,
if you're like anticipating this apology or for them to,
like you said, you know, be accountable, you're gonna be
disappointed and harbor resentment towards that person every time you

(41:49):
see them, especially if you guys are co parenting, because
you're still like waiting for that it may never come.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, I think that's really good advice.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
Mm hm.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
So last one that this one sounds hopeful empowering.

Speaker 3 (42:10):
So this one is the empowerment phase, and you're just
really just pouring a lot more into yourself and you're
really stepping into this person, this new masterpiece essentially that
you have built through this process. You're really owning who
you are. You're you know, that identity that was once
lost is now you know, shine and bright. So you're

(42:32):
really stepping into your power. And sorry, my kid is
home from spring break. I'm not sure if I can
hear her screaming. She just got on FaceTime with her friends, so.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
It is all so she's all excited.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
But you're really just stepping into your power and who
you are and the person that you want to show
up as. So if it is something like if you
rediscover that, oh my god, I really like the gym, Like, yeah,
that's that's who I am. And you are certain in
yourself and you know you're you're not relying on other

(43:11):
people for that validation because you know how to do
it yourself and you know how to work. You know.
It's just that the strong, the strong part of who
you are and this new identity that you have created
for yourself.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
So yeah, yeah, and this is where the Survivor song
comes in the background. Survival you don't want any of
them in somewhere in the song.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Exactly exactly well, you know, and I think all of
these except for detached, would be good things to continually
do in your relationship, right, because the whole idea is
the fact that you have to rebuild your identity means
that you allowed your identity to get lost, which I
think is very easy to do in a relationship, especially
with the pressure that we all feel all to fulfill

(44:00):
the roles and all of that kind of stuff. So
as we were talking, I was thinking, you know, this
is good advice for when you're in the relationship too,
So just put that out there.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
Absolutely. Yeah. And the thing with identity when you're in
relationships is because you in a sense, when you're in
a relationship and you guys become one and all that
you both or you do kind of create this identity
as the Harrisons for example, like this is who we are.
But to not lose yourself, it still means that, you know,

(44:34):
I still like to do X, Y and Z, and
we need to find opportunities when I can still do X,
Y and Z. The same for you know, the other person.
So that way you don't feel like, well, I gave
up so much for you, you know, because that's when
all the regret comes in. It doesn't work out. I
sacrificed all this, and I gave this up and all
this blah, blah blah blah blah. But if I'm still

(44:57):
showing up in the relationship as me, the other person
also understands that. You know, I'm not trying to take
away or strip away your identity either, because I'm myself
as well. But then we figure out how to do
this together. That's the important piece of it all.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just so it's divorce together, said Totach.
But so that's your next book. But so I know
we're just about the end of our time. But just
really quickly, do you have any tips for people on
co parenting after divorce, Just some like quick tips of

(45:31):
how to survive that, because uh, I think there's it
runs the gamut of how well people can do that together.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
Yes, the biggest thing is communication and being on the
same page with each other. It's as long as you
guys stay on the same page with one another when
it comes to parenting the kids, you guys will be fine.
What happens a lot of times is people end up

(45:59):
getting on their own or they lack communication, And that's
what frustrates a lot of a lot of people when
they're in their co parencing relationships. Because I have one
thing in mind and I'm not sharing it with the
other person because I don't necessarily want to let them
into my world. But when it affects the child, you
have to communicate that. You just have to so what

(46:21):
I encourage people to do. And again, I know this
may not work for everybody, just depending on the relationship,
but you still have to have meetings with the other
co parent to know, Okay, these are some of the
things that you know are coming up within the next
couple of months or this particular semester that you know

(46:46):
we need to be prepared for. You know, what does
the schedule look like like? Those things still need to
be discussed, but people don't talk about those things, or
you know, if people still have feelings involved, then you know,
let one person make do something that you know triggers
something that was from your past relationship and now all
hell breaks loose. So it's being able to detach some

(47:08):
of those feelings and focus on this child that we
have to parent together. But communication is key and that's
the hard part and it can quickly go downhill when
people stop communicating. Well, I went through that in my
in my co parenting situation, I was like, oh wow,
I can really see how a lack of communication can

(47:30):
make things quickly go downhill.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
People are making interpretations because they don't have the information, and.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Exactly like, because of who I am, I'm like, Okay,
we are not going to get off track too too
much because I'm seeing how this train is derailing very quickly.
We need to get back on the same page. Let's
talk this through. And a lot of times people don't
do that. So it's the communication piece is still very
much important and making sure you guys are on this

(48:00):
same page about what you guys are wanting to do
with your kid and not having your own separate agendas.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Does the dad still get to be the fun one
where they have ice cream for every meal? And does
that still happen?

Speaker 3 (48:13):
I my parents personally are the ones that do that.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
My parents, they're.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
They're the ones like, oh, you guys want cake for breakfast.
I'm like, what's wrong with you?

Speaker 1 (48:28):
Guys? Do that?

Speaker 2 (48:29):
When I was growing up, there's eggs and cake. I mean,
that's okay, it's good. It's milk. I mean there's lots
of good things in there.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Okay, that's good. Okay, just sit there and look pretty okay, Well,
So if people are wanting to reach out to you
to get your book, to to work with you on
co parenting or Healing after Heartbreak, where can they find
you and what what do you offer to them?

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yes, so if you would like to find me, you
can find me on Instagram at coach Janelle xo xo
or you can find me on TikTok as the Love Strategist.

(49:26):
And if you want to find the book, you can
look forward on Amazon. It's called Healing after Heartbreak and
you have to type my name after it or at
least Janelle and I actually have a workbook that goes
along with the book. Yeah, yeah, I failed to mention
that piece, but yeah, there's have it with me actually here,

(49:51):
but there's some journaling in it. There's like for the
detachment piece if whatever fears may come up, like talking
like what are some of those fears that are that
are that are coming up while you are detaching? So
I have a workbook that goes along with it and
those are both on Amazon.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
Okay great, and so people can use that with their
therapists that they're singing or if they want to see you,
And do you have a practice website or where could
they find you there?

Speaker 3 (50:21):
Yes, My practice website is www dot the number four
the love co dot com.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Okay, awesome, Yes, and.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
If you want to email me, it would be Janelle
at forthlovecode dot com.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
All right, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for your
time today. This was so helpful.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
Thank you for having me. I had a great time
talking talking about divorce and we all need healing right, Yes, exactly,
have

Speaker 2 (50:53):
Great job.