Navigating Neurodiverse Relationships | Claudia Pyland

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's get started. Hi, and welcome to make more Love
not War. This is Tara Harrison, licensed professional counselor and
relationship expert.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is her husband, Jeff Harrison, of no qualifications whatsoever,
just a normal dude.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hello, and welcome to make more Love not War. I
have doctor Claudia Piland here. She is an associate professor
at Texas Women's University in Texas, and she also has
her own private practice called Transcended Healing, and she specializes
in working with neurodivergent, neurodiverse couples and individuals. So welcome

(00:48):
to the podcast, Claudia.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Thank you so much, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
So Claudia and I have had a lot of great
conversations just as friends. So I talked to her into
coming onto the podcast because she has so much great
information about neurodiversity and she's developing a model to work
with couples, and so I would love first for you,
just for for those who don't know what that is
or just like would like some more clarification. Will you,

(01:14):
will you define what neurodiversity is?

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Sure, yeah, that's a great place to start. So neurodiversity
recognizes the various ways that we process that our brains
and nervous systems process information, and it recognizes the diversity
within our neurology as a diversity, a difference rather than

(01:41):
a deficit. So it really highlights the unique ways that
we all are, how we sense things, how we perceive things, that.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay, so what kind of what what types of differences
fit into that category? Just to give people an idea
of what that is.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, So the three main differences I would say are
communication differences, sensory and perception differences, and yeah, so those
those are really the main categories I would say. I
would say that they're along with the sensory and perceptive differences,

(02:27):
I would say that there are differences in the sensitivity
of our nervous system. So how we take in information
SOLF I identify as autistic and ADHD, and so I
speak from both personal as well as professional experience when

(02:48):
I speak about this, And we don't really talk about
neurodiversity from this lens A lot of the time in
the DSM, we refer more to the external behaviors what's observable.
But really what I love to talk about is what

(03:08):
is happening inside, right, Like how are we processing things,
and how does that impact the way that we behave,
you know, how we communicate with other people, why we
might seem a certain way, or why we might miss
certain social cues for example, which is a common descriptor

(03:31):
for you know, autism. And so a big reason for
that is because our nervous system is processing things very differently,
and we can get overwhelmed by all of the sensory
stimuli that we are getting, and many of us might

(03:51):
respond by either shutting it down and kind of blocking
all of that sensory stimuli or taking it all in
and then trying to address it all over you know,
and that can be overwhelming as well. Yeah, so I
would say those are kind of the main differences.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, just as you're talking about it,
I'm thinking about my family and my daughter who has
adhd IS. She is a sensory seeker to the max,
and so when she's overstimulated, she is all about getting
sensory input needed to talk and things. And I am
I am a sensory avoid when I'm overstimulated, so I
just need to go in a room and have complete quiet,

(04:35):
and that could be very challenging and parenting or with
partners who handle things so differently to be able to
bridge the gap and meet your individual needs and also
coregulate as a couple. So how do you it seems like,
and it seems to me like people end up pairing
up with somebody who just has an opposite processing system.

(04:59):
That is no very common. So how do you help
couples deal with that? Because I could use some advice
families deal with that.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
I appreciate that example because I think it is a
really common one. And I think the biggest thing that
I talk to my clients about is really one understanding
ourselves and accepting ourselves and then that it starts with that. Really,
a lot of times when there's conflict around that, it

(05:27):
is because there's a defensiveness that comes up because we
are feeling threatened in some way or rejected in some way.
A lot of times at the core of that is
a lack of self acceptance, right, And so I would
say it starts with understanding our own ways of processing

(05:50):
things and then what we need based on those differences. Right,
And so it sounds like you have a lot of
self awareness about what it is that you need. You
need that quiet time so that is great. You already
have awareness about that. You know what your needs are.
I need time away and then be able to communicate
those needs directly, and you know, just try to do

(06:19):
it at a time when there isn't conflict, you know,
like have these conversations when things are calm and just
a like an experience to kind of get to know
each other right and and talk about like what do
you need when you get overwhelmed and that kind of thing,

(06:39):
and what makes you feel overwhelmed. Have those conversations. Ask
your partner you know those things. And so I would say,
be willing to communicate to your partner, and then hopefully
your partner is willing to communicate with you, and then
understand that your partner has a different approach and not

(07:03):
become you know, like not feel don't her take it,
don't take it personally. But if it's not exactly how
you know you would approach something, I think a big
part of it is that we grow up feeling like

(07:23):
this is how we show love, right, like you show
love in these grand gestures. If we grew up in
a house where that's how love is expressed. And so
if you don't get this, like physical affection all the time,
or if your partner needs a lot of space, then
that can feel like a rejection and what's wrong with
me if my partner doesn't want to spend time with me,

(07:46):
that kind of thing. So I think it could get
it could Yeah, we take it personally sometimes, so like
understand yourself, accept yourself, and then don't take it personally
if your partner has different needs than you.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that goes to compassion, just
being able to have compassion for somebody else's differing needs
and not getting stuck in it's wrong if it's not
how I do things.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
And you're not meeting my needs.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
So my husband, he's taught me a lot about my
own neurodivergence, and I'm very grateful for him, and I
can kind of get stuck in that like this is
how things should be, and this is how we show
love and affection.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
And there's one script for it, right, you had to
write new scripts.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
Right, Yes, And he often would tell me, you don't
need to understand why I need this. You just need
to know that I need this and and respect that.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Right.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yes, you don't have to agree or understand you able
to validate somebody stand it.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yes, yeah, and hopefully if it's a good loving relationship,
you will eventually get to the place where you understand it.
But that first step doesn't always have to be I
need to understand it before I can give you this,
and that can be hard to do.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
I think, yes, some of us.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yes, it's there's a lot of to overcome there, and
I think it is recognizing that, whether we're neurodiversion or not,
we do have a lot of scripts about how things
are supposed to be and to recognize that, yeah, your
way is not the only right way, you know, and there, yes,
there are things that are You can say yes, that's wrong,

(09:38):
you know, like yeah, I think that beating your children
is wrong, and you can't just say like, well, you
just pair it differently than me. But a lot of
things are a lot more gray than that.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yes, yes, I totally agree. I think that that brings
me to another really important point about neurodivergence, like what
is neurodiver And in the field, we talk about it
from this perspective of there's neurotypical and then there's neurodivergent,
and so neurotypical is the you know, these are the

(10:11):
people who have a neurotype that is quote unquote more typical,
more normal, right, more common, and then neurodivergent is are
are the people who have a neurotype that differs, that's
different from the quote unquote norm that creates a kind

(10:37):
of a dichotomy between this is normal and this is
not normal. And one thing I really like to highlight
is that neurodiversity is not a dichotomy. There isn't one
way of being and one way of not being. I
think it oversimplifies the diversity within neurotypes. It would be

(11:01):
almost like saying, and this might be a little bit
controversial to say, but I believe it based on my
clinical and professional and research experience, is that it's like saying,
you know, there's white and then there's non white. Right,
There's like there's this one standard of ethnicity and then

(11:24):
there's everything else. And I think that it is problematic
to dichotomize any kind of identity in that way. Now,
I understand that there is the aspect of disability, right,
that there is a within certain neurotypes, there is an

(11:46):
inherent disability. Certain neurotypes can become very disabling in this society,
and so then I know that that, you know, if
our functioning is impacted, I know that that is another consideration, right,
but it is it is still a diversity. And so

(12:07):
I think that you know, when we say that there's
an neurotypical, we are emphasizing that these certain ways of
being are the standard, and that really I think it

(12:33):
can make life kind of less interesting in a way.
It kind of makes life a little more bland, because
we're all trying to be this standard and if you're
not the standard, then you're going to be called weird,

(12:56):
and nobody really wants to be called weird. So I
would venture to say that many of the people listening
to this podcast would never consider themselves neurodivergent, but at
some point in their life have felt different, have felt
like they are not being understood, like they think differently,

(13:20):
like they perceive the world differently. Many some of your
listeners might have, at some point in their life had
depression or anxiety, might have experienced a trauma of some
sort and develop PTSD. Those are all types of neurodivergence,
and I think that's something that people don't really consider. Now,

(13:42):
if my neurodivergence is primarily depression. And I've only had
one episode of depression, and the majority of my life
I've been able to manage it, and so I've been Okay.
I am still neurodivergent, but I can conform pretty easily
because my neurology, my neurotype is close enough to what

(14:06):
we have deemed the standard that nobody would really identify
me as neurodivergent. But I would venture to say that
the reason we became depressed at some point is because
of some difference in our neurology that at some point

(14:27):
became so problematic that we developed depression because of it.
We could no longer mask, either because the demands became
too high, or our environment became too stressful or abusive
or neglectful, right, and so those environmental experiences eventually led

(14:52):
us to no longer be able to mask, and that
led to anxiety or And that's what I see in
a lot of my clients. A lot of my clients
will come to me with a diagnosis of anxiety or depression,
and as I get to know them, I realize that
there is a neurodivergence underneath that that actually led to

(15:15):
that anxiety or depression. So I say this just because
I think it is important to begin to think about
neurodiversity from the lens of an actual diverse identity, and
how harmful it could be to create a society where
we say, these are the ways that you're supposed to

(15:38):
do things. You're supposed to look at people in the
eye when you speak to them. You're not supposed to
be forgetful about things when you're talking to people. You're
supposed to be able to track conversations really well. And
you're supposed to have like a pretty decent language, right,

(15:59):
ability to communicate verbally, and you're supposed to be able
to pick up on certain verbal cues. And if you
don't do those things, then you're weird or different. And
I think that if we begin to highlight those differences
rather than focusing on maybe some of the different similarities

(16:19):
or the fact that those differences actually have our gifts. Right,
And so maybe the reason I can't track our conversation
is because I'm thinking of ten other things and I
have a very active mind. So my gift might not

(16:39):
be in communicating when on one with someone. My gift
might actually be in solving really complex problems, right, And
so if we only value social communication that attends to
verbal and nonverbal behavior, right, then we're missing all of
the other ways that a different neurotype might bring more

(17:07):
color into our lives, right, more like uniqueness and make
life just more interesting.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
I think that's a wonderful point and very true. And
I think it also goes back to being able to
celebrate those differences and see them as superpowers, like you said,
like a gift. And then also how this affects relationships
is going back to recognizing that there's not one way
to show love, But how do you help couples where

(17:42):
one person might be saying, you know, the way that
I know showing love is by eye contact and communication
and planning dates and not forgetting things and and you know,
and showing me all of these typical things we think
of as romantic love on the movies that we see

(18:02):
on the movies and things like that, right, that we're
all raised to see as love. If we were lucky
enough to receive love in our families, we might have
seen love that way or we have seen it on
TV this way, and we're like, I want that kind
of love, yes, And then you meet somebody and you
connect and everything is wonderful, and then you start to realize, well,

(18:23):
I don't think this person can give me those things
that I feel that I need as love, and so
now I don't know what to do. And so that's
a lot of times when people come into counseling. So
I'm sure that you've seen this in couples and I'm
wondering how you help them through this.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
I love that question. I think it's a really good
one and I think you know it. And I'll go
back to giving as an example my own relationship because
there's just so many examples there. But so my husband
and I have very different ways, different needs I would

(19:01):
say in feeling love and feeling loved, and my husband
can get overstimulated with a lot of emotion, a lot
of talk. He's just not a talker, and so we
have come to a compromise. Right, so one having the conversation, right,

(19:24):
these are the things that make me feel loved, that
make me feel special, can you do those things for me?
And if the answer is no, then let's have a
conversation about what is it that we need to do
to make that happen. And so for my husband is
uh spoon have you heard of spoon theories? I don't

(19:46):
know how how how much folks would know about spoon theory,
but it's basically it's like how much capacity we have,
how much energy we have to give after we've given
on all these different tasks, and each task that we
have in our life takes us a number of spoons

(20:07):
or a number of a certain amount of energy, right,
and then we reached that max and we're done. We
don't have anything more to give, Like we've used up
our social battery, for example. And so you know, my husband,
for him, it takes a lot of spoons, a lot

(20:28):
of battery, a lot of energy to talk, to be verbal,
and to show a lot of emotion and express emotion
that because that isn't the way that he naturally processes
and experiences things, experiences emotion. And so so he says, okay, well,

(20:54):
how about you know we have some date nights where
we just show physical affection more so than just emotional affection, right,
because that takes a more cognitive loa to show emotional
affection for some people than physical affection. Some people prefer

(21:15):
physical affection that kind of thing. So so we've kind
of compromised and you know, make sure to give each
other those things to help each other's you know, energy storage. Right, Like,
if if we know that one of our that either

(21:35):
I or my partner has had a really long day,
I know, well, maybe this might not be the time
for us to have like a really in depth verbal conversation.
Maybe I'll just cuddle up with him and have him
hold me and maybe he can give me comfort in
that way rather than having him, you know, forcing him
to tell me all of the reasons why he loves me. Right,

(21:58):
And so I think being able to like understand what
we each need and then being willing to compromise about
that is really important.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, So say you've had you both had a long day.
He's been doing a bunch of stuff that day, and
You've been doing a bunch of stuff that day, and
you really want to connect. You don't know where he is.
Do you do some sort of check in when you
get home and just say, Hey, where are you at?
What can you do?

Speaker 4 (22:30):
What?

Speaker 3 (22:31):
What's up? So I have a neurodivergence that actually makes
me very highly empathic, and so when I see him
the moment he walks in the room, I know how
he's feeling. I'm very, very in tune with him in
that way, and so I can pick up on it immediately,

(22:53):
and I usually do check in and ask are you okay?
And I can with his response, and then that clues
me into where he is and what his needs might be.
But we've been together for for a while now, so
we've kind of figured out that dance. But I think

(23:15):
in most relationships that check in is really helpful.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, yeah, I like the one that I tell my
couples to do. I don't tell them to do, I
give them as a resource I make them do. This
check in is to do it on a scale of
one to ten and just you know, how are you?

Speaker 2 (23:35):
How are you feeling?

Speaker 1 (23:35):
On a scale of one to ten, and so that
you could even just say I'm at a two, you know,
like you walk in the door, I'm at a two,
and the other person's like, okay, I'm also at a two.
So we need we need to give each other grace
and compassion because we're both at a two, and that
means that neither of us is going to be able
to help the other person with their two very much.

(23:57):
And or if someone's at a two and the other
person's at an eight, then okay, well you have the capacity,
so maybe you can do something for me, like give
me a foot rub or something like that, cuddle if
I was your husband, right, Yeah, to be able to
help me regulate myself.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
Yes, exactly. And that's one of the things that we're
finding in the research that we're doing of the Heart
Math Institute, which I know that you know about, is
doing a lot of research on the interconnectivity between you know,
like global interconnectivity, and then how we impact each other.
And that is research that is you know, emerging where

(24:39):
we are starting to understand how the importance of coregulation
and how we physically can affect each other's energy. So
if one of us is disregulated, that can create dysregulation
in another person. We feel each other's energy in that way,
and we're connected to each each other in that way,

(25:01):
especially if it's a close relationship like a parent child
or a partner relationship. So I love that. I think
it is really important for us to help each other
regulate in that way. Another point I would say regarding
the rating scale, right, is that it might be some

(25:23):
people struggle with identifying emotion in general, like Alexithymia is
a experience of you know, difficulty expressing or understanding or
processing their own emotional experience. And so if we have
any degree of alexithymia, it might be like I'll ask

(25:44):
my husband, how are you feeling? Like I don't know,
I haven't thought about it until you just asked me. Now,
so give me a minute to even process that. Because
for some people, emotion isn't in their awareness until you
bring it into their awareness. And now that's the first
time they're thinking about how they feel. And so I

(26:06):
think that's another important distinction, right, is like if even
even to just check in about how aware they are
about their own emotional experience. And sometimes if you link
it to a physical experience, that's helpful. Right, Like I
might not be able to tell you if I'm sad,
but I could tell you that I feel a not

(26:29):
in my chest and that my back hurts, and that
is usually when something happens that makes me sad. Right,
And so maybe some some kind of physical anchor might
be helpful for for people who might have any degree
of alexithymia.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
That's a great idea. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
So maybe you're not a number, But you're like, what
what what level is your pain today? Yeah, going back
to a number. See, I just want to quantify.

Speaker 4 (26:59):
That's my brain, that's your brain, right, And some people,
For some people it's a visual like show me a
happy face, angry face, a sad phase?

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Right? So true? Right?

Speaker 3 (27:12):
Color? Some people prefer colors.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
I'm feeling red or blue. Yes, that's what I love
about the Inside Out movie, right, with the color the emotions.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
It's really cool.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, I'm thinking, Well, we're talking a lot about communication,
but I'm wondering, are there any other communication tips that
you have?

Speaker 3 (27:36):
I think even just recognizing that we all have different
communications styles and so some of us, as you probably
already identified by now that I can ramble. I'm not
very direct in my communication. I give a lot of details.
I like to share stories. And my husband he gets distracted. Yeah,

(28:01):
after five minutes of hearing me talk and so you know,
especially in stressful situations, he will tell me, can you
repeat that in one sentence?

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Please?

Speaker 4 (28:11):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (28:11):
Okay, that's me.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Doesn't do to be mean, right, It's not in a
mean way. He's like, I love you and I want
to hear what you have to say, but can you
shorten that, give me like a summary like you just said.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
I do that with my husband too, because I'm like,
where is the headline and all the things that you're saying,
because there's so many words coming out and I don't
even know what to focus on, Like what is the subject?
Can you tell me the thesis?

Speaker 3 (28:34):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yes, I have.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
A feeling that in your we have the flipped a
relationship my husband and I and you and your partner.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
But yeah, so like some people prefer direct communication, some
people just like telling stories, like to be emotional in
their expression, and you know, like some people enjoy talking
about things and some people enjoy talking about feelings and people, right,

(29:05):
and so what brings us each joy to talk about?
And like that's really neat to know that about your
partner When you have a good date. Is it because
you've talked about places that you've visited, or memories that
you've had, about different things that you've gotten, or you know,

(29:26):
vacations that you've taken, or is it because you've talked
about your emotions and really to be able to understand
what makes your partner feel fulfilled and then be able
to give each other that when possible I think makes
for a really healthy relationship.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, I agree with that, and I think too just
being able to be aware of people's capacity and what
they need. Like, for instance, if you know that your
husband is at a two for his back hurts, or
you're picking up you know his on the wavelength, you're
probably not going to tell him a long story when

(30:06):
he asks you a question. If he says, how's your day,
you might just tell him that in two sentences, whether
when it's been when you can see that he is
just open and relaxed, and then you might tell the
long story of your day with all of the extra
information and things like that. So yeah, I love that,
and that's something that I really heartily agree with. Well,

(30:29):
is being able to know your audience with your partner,
and we both need to bend to each other and
communicate with each other how the other person likes to
be communicated with as well. And there's a lot of
this expectation of, well, they should communicate with me the

(30:50):
way that I need to be community. No, no, no,
they should hold on. Let me let me say I'm
having some trouble with communication. Just expecting people to be
able to man, I don't know this is really hard
to get out, being able to communicate back and forth
with you only the way that you want to be

(31:11):
communicated with, right. Yes, I don't know why that was
so hard.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
To say that communication can at hard, especially at a
certain time of the day.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yes, exactly, yes.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
Well, And I think that's another thing. Is like time
of the day, so you know, early morning for some people.
Please do not tell me, you know, don't tell me
this deep story if I just woke up. Some people
love to talk at seven in the morning, and so
even I think a big part of it is like

(31:42):
being in tune with your partner, right and like like
really wanting to get to know them. It's about getting
to know ourselves and getting to know our partners. Is
the importance of understanding both ourselves and our partners, I
think is I think is what it always comes down to.

(32:04):
And then not take things personally, not get butt hurt
whenever you know there's a mismatch there.

Speaker 4 (32:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
I think it is a blend of being able to
accept influence on both sides too.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
For us, I'll give you.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
An example of my relationship. I learned over time that
when I think things need to be done is not
the same time, my husband thinks things need to He
has a very high threshold and being a former race
car driver, like he is a sensation seeker, and so

(32:41):
basically the house has to be on fire for him
to get a water hose, and I'm like, let's water
the house when it's hot outside, or I want to
get I want to make sure the gas is filled
up when it's at a quarter tank. But he'll he'll
like take it down to like there's two miles left,
you know, and it doesn't feel like it needs to
happen for him. Then, So we had this I bring
up the trash with a lot of couples when I'm

(33:03):
using examples of communication, because we had this long standing
thing about the trash, which was his chore, and he
always wanted it to be his chore and all that
was fine, but I would feel really stressed when the
trash is just a little bit full, like you can
see the trash over the edge of the trash can.
But for him, he would just be the person to
stuff it down. And I would take that very personally

(33:26):
in the sense of like you are you're not being
loving towards me, because you know how anxious I feel
when the trash, but I also this is not my job,
and it's like, you know, like this is your thing
to do, and so we had it took a long
time to figure this out, and it was a little
bit of me being able to recognize that it wasn't
a personal thing for him, and then him also being

(33:49):
able to recognize that this was a way that he
shows love to me even though it makes no sense
to him, and he is I will say a lot
better about the trash.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Like right now, I'm a little anxious to even talking.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
About it because it needs to be emptied right now,
but he'll probably do it tonight or tomorrow morning, and
I can rest easy in that.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
Yes, yes, I love that, you know. And I think
that when we can, we should strive to support our
partners and help them regulate. And when we can, we
also need to support our partners to learn how to
regulate themselves, how to learn to self regulate, And so

(34:34):
I think it's both right. It's an ability to co
regulate with your partner and be able to do things
that are going to decrease their anxiety if you can,
if you have the spoons for it, then I think
it's always helpful if you don't have the spoons for
it to be able to communicate that to them and

(34:56):
show that you respect that this is a need for
them for whatever reason, you don't have the spoons to
provide that need. But hopefully you've created a safe relationship
where there has been opportunities to learn how to self
regulate for each person, right, and so, and that's it's

(35:19):
kind of a balance. Right. It's like, there are certain
things that I need from my husband and sometimes he
just can't give it to me. And I need to
learn to be able to self soothe, self regulate, like, okay,
breathe through it. You know, what do I need to
do to calm my nervous system? What do I need

(35:40):
to tell myself so that I don't end up resentful
of him?

Speaker 4 (35:46):
Right?

Speaker 3 (35:46):
So, that kind of thing I think is also important.
Relationships are hard. I mean, that's why we have jobs. Yes,
they because are complicated.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, they absolutely are.

Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, And a lot of it I think is just
exactly what you said, is balancing the coregulation with the
with the internal regulation and recognizing that it is not
our partners are not responsible for us, but we do
have responsibility.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
To each other.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, well thanks, Sometimes I'm profound. So what do you
see as the as the strengths for neurodivergent couples looking
at your own relationship and yeah, in clients and yeah,

(36:47):
I see a lot of mixed neurotypes around one person
with ADHD and one person autistic being together. And I
see that as a superpower because you have one person
that's as all of the great ideas and one person's
keeping the train running that works for us in our relationship.
But so that's a strength that I see.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
What are strengths that you have seen?

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well?

Speaker 3 (37:13):
I think that when we grow up feeling different and
recognizing that our perceptual or sensory experiences are unique, that
a lot of times forces us to pay attention to
how are other people experiencing the world. And so I
think for that reason, a lot of us tend to

(37:34):
be really empathic and really perceptive to different things. A
lot of neurodivergent people can pick up on details that
you know, maybe somebody who might not be neurodivergent, right,
might not might not pick up on. We can be

(37:57):
pretty creative to solve problem solve and sometimes when you
have people who are different, you kind of have to
figure things out differently, right, So I think that's a
strength too. I think we can be very adaptable and
resilient if we're working on these things, if we really
put forth the energy to figure it out. And it's

(38:22):
funny that you bring this up because I was just
on a date with my husband the other day and
we were just talking about our little quirks, you know
that we all have, and we had just gotten out
of we had just finished eating and we were holding
our to go or to go boxes and the car

(38:43):
was like maybe like a couple of blocks down, and
we wanted to go walk around the square. And my
husband says, do you want to go and drop the
food off at the car? And I look back and
I'm like, oh, it's like it's like a two minute walk.
And I started, I was like, I don't know if
I want to walk. He's like, baby, it's not that far.
Let's go. And I was like, okay, you're right.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
You're like okay, thank you, you're right.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
We are about to go for a walk, and I
don't want to walk two minutes to the car because
it's not in the direction that we were gonna go.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
Yes, your head was set on this thing.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
I going to the square, which was in the opposite
direction of the car. And he's like, it's really funny
how we tend to get stuck on very different things,
you know, like things that that get him caught up.
I don't. I don't struggle with at all. And we
were just kind of joking about, like, wouldn't we be

(39:38):
a power couple if we could just like trust the
other person one hundred percent of the time and if
I'm getting stuck on something and he tells me it
is safe to let it go, and then he could
do the same with me, then we would never get stuck, right,
we would be a power couple. And I think that's

(40:01):
true for neurodivergent couples, is that we each have our
little things that we can get stuck on and our partner,
if we would allow it, if we felt safe in
that relationship, our partners can actually help us get unstuck
because they probably have very different stuck points than we do.

(40:23):
And that is really cool to be able to have
that kind of complementary relationship.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yes, I agree, Yeah, I really love to see a
combination of somebody who is super cognitively flexible with somebody
who is not very cognitively flexible, And how what's your
gift that is to both people because one person is
grounding the other person and the other person is pushing the

(40:55):
inflexible person out of the of their scripts to be
able to see that that we can create new stories
and these stories are okay, even though it seems like
it has to be this story. Like I'm a super
planner because I'm a very pattern oriented person and I
create a pattern and it feels really good and I
want to stay in that pattern. And then my husband

(41:15):
is a pattern disruptor, and at times that has caused
a lot of discomfort for us on both sides, him
filling him into a pattern and me being my pattern disrupted.
But it seems like we've been able to use those
superpowers for each other's benefit over and over again.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
Yes, yeah, And that can only happen if there's safety,
if there's trust and respect in their relationship, right, because
if there's always this no, you have to do things
my way, then that can inhibit growth in that relationship.

(41:54):
But if we're willing to kind of bend, if we
trust our partner enough to to be a little bit
more flexible. In that way, we can really learn from
each other.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yep, agreed. Yes, I love that.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
Yeah, I feel like like you and I are kind
of that balance. You know, You're kind of keeping me
on track right now in this interview, and I'm kind
of going off and rambling and you're bringing me back.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Finding your patterns and finding your patterns.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
Yes, you are.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
You're great.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
You're a great therapist.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Well, thank you.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
I'm sure you are too. It's the empathy. It flows
between us. Yes, I'm wearing my empathy as my superpower shirt.
Since nobody can see me, I have to.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Tell you that.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
But yes, it's beautiful, Yes it is.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
It is a superpower. Absolutely, It's what makes me.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
A gift and a burden though it's a gift and
a burden.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yes, yes it is.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
Well, so before we're getting close to the end of
our time, but I want to ask a question that's
a little bit different than what the work, the questions
we've been or the information we've been sharing about couples,
which is a lot of people and there's been a
lot more awareness of neurodiversity and a lot of people
are finding out that they are autistic or have ADHD,

(43:09):
specifically those two. A lot more people are finding those
out in adulthood, especially when their kids are getting diagnosed.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Right, I mean that happens a lot to me.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yes, yeah, me too, and for my husband as well.
But so except when you look back, you know, it's
so interesting. You look back, you can see all the things, right,
it's so interesting. But so for those who are listening,
who are saying yes, me too, or maybe they're on
the verge of kind of figuring some things out about themselves,

(43:38):
they're in that process. Because I see it as a process.
For me, it was a year long thing as I
was working and getting my daughter diagnosed and recognizing some
of the things about myself, like what I contributed genetically
and things like that to some of her, some of
her qualities that are more of the on the autistic spectrum.
What I see now, I am I'm getting myself off track.

(44:04):
What kind of advice can you give to people who
are in that phase.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
That's a really good question. Thank you for asking that question.
I would say that when we grow up neurodivergent without
realizing we're neurodivergent, we can develop this idea that I'm
not good enough the way I am, my natural way

(44:32):
of being is wrong. Because we learn that we're different
and we're weird right from a young age, but we
don't quite know why. We don't have a label for it.
We just feel like we don't quite fit in and
that can be a really hard experience, and so we

(44:53):
start to allow other people to define who we are.
We start to try to fit in into a certain
mold that we may or may not be. But if
we see that this is what people tend to like, well,
maybe I need to be more this way, right, And
so then we start to allow society and other people

(45:13):
to define that for us. And I think that as
we start to realize that we might have neurodivergen we
might be neurodiverge in ourselves, we might get into that
same pattern or habit of allowing this label to define us.
And I would caution against that. I would say, this

(45:36):
is actually an experience of liberation for you to be
able to finally recognize that you are not weird, right,
that you just have a different neurotype, that you have
a unique neurology that affects how you view the world.

(45:56):
How you perceive the world, and that could create some
difficulties for you. It's not always a superpower. I think
that's important to say. And sometimes it can be rough
to be neurodivergent, but there's also some really beautiful things
about being neurodivergent. And the DSM and our psychology textbooks

(46:23):
don't really understand what autism and ADHD is. Most of
the research that has been done historically has been on
white boys. And first of all, if you're a woman,
your experience is very different from what the psychology textbooks

(46:43):
might say about autism and ADHD. If you're a woman
of color, even more so. And so I think that
what I would say is that this is an opportunity
for you to begin to define yourself and kind of
break free from those limitations that maybe you have created

(47:05):
for yourself or that society has created for you. And really,
you know, I would love to be able to give
you permission to free yourself of that you know, and
really figure out who you are. This is now an
opportunity for you to truly learn who you are, and

(47:25):
that is a beautiful thing. When we can take the
time to really understand who we are, there is so
much healing that goes into that, and I think that
that is a necessary requirement for a good healthy relationship,
is for us to be able to have a healthy

(47:46):
relationship within ourselves. So again I always go back to
self understanding and that's one of the reasons why. But yeah,
that would be my advice is, like, you know, enjoy
the journey of learning who you are now that you're
in your thirties or however old you are now. Yeah,

(48:08):
I think that's a common experience.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
And don't be afraid to bring that person into relationships
that you trust.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, Well, thank you Claudia so much for today. This
has been really helpful. And I'm sure that listeners might
have questions for you, or might want to reach out
to you, or might want to see you in your practice,
and so how would people get in touch with you
if they wanted to learn more.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
Thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed
being here. So people can email me at doctor Cpiland
at gmail dot com and Piland is p y La
and D and I am recently getting to the point

(48:58):
where a couple of my clients are graduating, and so
I will begin taking clients again, at the moment, I
am full, but hopefully here in the coming weeks I'll
have a little bit of availability.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
But yeah, okay, you wonderful, awesome, thank you.