Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's get started. Hi, and welcome to make more Love
not War. This is Tara Harrison, licensed professional counselor and
relationship expert.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is her husband, Jeff Harrison, of no qualifications whatsoever,
just a normal dude.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hello, and welcome to make More Love not War. Today
we have Clay and Sonya Arnold with us for the
third time. We're doing our trifecta of communication. So we
started with mirroring and then the next one was validating,
and today we are tackling empathy. So Clay and Sonya,
(00:46):
please remind us of who you are, where you come from,
and then we'll just kind of go over mirroring and
validating before we get into empathy.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Yeah, So we're Clay and Sonya Heart Life Coaching, and
we believe that marriage is something that's amazing and should
be enjoyed and you should thrive rather than just survive
it and endure it. And a lot of times it's
skills that people don't have, not that they're married to
the wrong person or that they're bad people, but that
they just don't have the skills. So that's kind of
(01:15):
what we're all about. And yeah, I'm excited to get
into empathy. It is one of our favorite, our favorite.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Topics, and remind us what your YouTube channel is called.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
It's Heart Life Coaching DFW stands for Dallas Fort Worth.
So we kind of started, you know, before we were
all over the world, when we were just in our
little North Texas world.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
But yeah, Heart Life Coaching DFW.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, so those of us, of those of you who
are listening to this on our podcast can also access
this video on their YouTube channel if you want to
see our beautiful faces too.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
See how amazing these guys look.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And you too. We're all awesome, I mean, yeah, yeah.
So last time we covered mirroring and then validation, So
if y'all wouldn't mind, wouldn't mind providing a little nutshell
on that before we go into empathy, that would be awesome.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
You know. The whole goal of what we've been talking
about is to be able to talk without criticism, how
to really listen without judgment, and how to connect beyond
our differences, which is the number one reason why couples
have conflict. So we've been talking about the we were
talking about these three tools and how to do that
in a space that's safe to connect so that we
(02:34):
can communicate, and we need that progression that the safety
has got to be there in the space between us
so that we can connect and then we can effectively communicate.
It's safety and connections not there, good luck communicating, and
we already have the challenges we talked about. One of
the last last videos we did with you was you know,
(02:56):
discussing that you know, we retain about twenty percent of
what we here and if that's if you're in a
good mood, and if anything's emotionally charged, that can drop marginally,
So it's really important to work on bringing that safety
and connection to the space. One of the first things
we do we have talked about that is mirroring, and
(03:18):
by that we're talking about not just parent parenting somebody,
but being able to relate back to what you're here
with accuracy to make sure that you're listening. Is effective.
And I love mirroring because it helps us to avoid
(03:40):
the little little while you're an analyst, so we have
on our shoulder because if Sony is talking to me
and I'm preparing rebuttal because I'm irritated at it or
I'm figuring out how to fix it, I'm not listening
and the only way I've learned to get rid of
those guys is to do the mirroring so that I
(04:00):
can really be engaged in listening to be able to
do that, and we talked specifically about some sentence stems
that we use to do that, which had been researched
over the past forty years to be able to do
that effectively. And those senate stems we talked about on
one of the other podcasts was let me see if
(04:21):
I got that? You said? Did I get it? And
is there more about that? And then be able to
give a recap at the end. And by utilizing those
senate stems, what we're actually doing in our brain is
we're integrating ourselves from being stuck in the motional part
of our brain and getting us up to the front
of cortex where we find win wins and solutions and
(04:43):
we're really able to effectively connect with each other at
a different level. But we also talked about validation.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
And the validation so once you've heard your partner and.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
You've really been able to listen to them and they've
kind of shared all that they want to share, and
they know that they're hurt and they know that to listen.
So validation is one of the key things in that
you're really you may not agree with what they said,
but you are giving the right to.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
That.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
They have a right to have their own opinion, they
have a right to have their viewpoint, they have a
right to have their own experience.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
And the sin instems that we encourage people to use
for that one is well, that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
And again it might not make sense to you, but
you are saying, well, it makes sense based on what
you've just told me.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
And if it doesn't make sense to you, that they
make sense if you just.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Need to listen more and sometimes you need to hear more,
be more curious. Yeah, And so that's the validation step
that is often hard for people because we often want
to be right. We don't want you to be right,
We want me to be right, and we want you
to think the same thing as I think.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
And that's such a huge point because when somebody what
they're saying to is we don't agree with it, or
it doesn't make sense to us with it too, we
tend to take that personal as an attack against our
and it's really not that. It's just that they've had
a different life experiences you know, different growing up with
their caretakers. Who knows what all's contributing to that to
(06:09):
get the perspective that they have. So if I come
at it from curiosity point of view instead of being right,
then that changes all the ways I interact with that.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
And yeah, you do have to move away from right.
If I have to be right, then you have to
be wrong. But you know, you can both be.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Right even if they're opposing views because they're your views.
And sometimes we do have to talk a little bit more,
especially we have do you have to come to a
decision together, Then it requires a little bit more understanding
and have a little bit But oftentimes you come up
with not solution A or B, but you come up
with solution FG.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Yeah, I love how people argue with me about that
with it too, but it's like, that's not how life
works with it. That's like, well, okay, let's talk about light.
Light's measured in particles as well as waves. How can
that they're both opposing things? How can that be?
Speaker 3 (07:03):
You know?
Speaker 5 (07:03):
So it's different. We're filled with all kinds of natural
antonomies in our in our in our world and our culture.
Why not this? Yeah, we both have a different perspective
and that be okay.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, And it's the beauty of gray for gray exactly,
and the beauty of all of our colors.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Actually, because there's so differences is not a bad thing.
We can make differences to be great and wonderful and
an ally rather than something that creates conflict, because like, oh, yeah,
it's great that you you see it that way. Yeah,
it's great that you, you know, want to have everything
(07:42):
in its place all.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Over the office.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
It's also great that I am very very busy, so
I have piles all over the place.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
And it's also great that I have my little area
that I don't want your crap on my desk either.
So there we go.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yes, So there's the compromise, right, there's where you figure
out how to honor each other's needs because you listened
through it and understood that Sonia has this way of
organizing things and Clay has a different way, and they're
both they're both okay. It's just figuring out how to
work together. Just like Jeff and I we we brainstorm
(08:16):
in very different ways, and we work together on a
lot of projects. And his energy and my energy are
just very different, so we're always trying to adjust to that,
you know, of just like he wants to go from
like zero to one hundred, like let's get there, and
I'm like, I need to have little bits and then
I need to go off and think about it and
I need to like process, and then I need to
(08:37):
come back and I get overwhelmed. And he's like giving
me all these ideas and he's like, that's brainstorming, and
I'm like, but that's overwhelming. So even understanding like how
we just process language differently and communicate differently, Like that's
that meta can higher level of like figuring out, oh wait,
we even have like different the way that tone affects
(08:58):
us and all of that stuff is different and that's okay.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
Ye, And who we are in our personalities. It contributes
a lot to that too, because you know, of if
you're a big picture person in a visionary, you're going
to do that pretty rapid fire eyes. Yes, that's him
and people like me. I'm a very detailed person and
very very anal about it. And when I do it,
I want to take that into not only points, but
(09:21):
many points to go with the pup, you know, and
kind of kind of a little bit either one or fine,
but just that processing and that difference in the way
we do it can make a big difference.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Yeah, And I found like, oh, asking for permission, like, oh,
is that a good time for me to.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Share an idea? And sometimes it is and sometimes it's not.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
When I'm just woken up without a cup of coffee.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yes, I have all these big ideas in my mind, Jeff,
I don't know if you do this, but just like
they're I've been processing. It's like, oh, oh, I had
this great idea, and I'll just go off and start
talking about it and then plays like yeah, but by
just like saying, you know, just like oh, leading in, Oh,
can we talk about this idea I have about work,
(10:09):
about the family, about Christmas.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
That's just kind of like, oh.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
My god, let's let's pause and then like let's eat
breakfast and then we can.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Talk about this, right, which is where you know the
empathy comes in, right of each having empathy for each
other's experience, Sonia, you having empathy for Clay's feeling of overwhelm, like, oh, okay,
that's really deeply uncomfortable for him, and what can I
do to help with that so that we can come
together around being able to discuss Christmas or what was
(10:43):
it pumpkin bread last time?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You know, I'm just like.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Whatever thing it is.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
Yeah, oh yeah, So well that was a good segue
into Yeah, let's talk about empathy.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
How do you see empathy being I'm just curious, Jeff,
how do you define empathy?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Hm?
Speaker 5 (11:01):
Hmm, there you go.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Well, I mean, to me, empathy is you know, understanding
how the other person feels. That's the way I would
define it.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
M h that makes sense? Is that.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Allowing space for that?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah? And also there's the cognitive aspect, which is the
perspective taking. So to me, there's a few different aspects.
There's the emotional and then there's the cognitive. So the
understanding of how people feel is emotional, and some people
can can also feel people's feelings, which I resonate with
that where I can like just feel the energy coming
(11:43):
from Jeff and I'm like, I know how we feel.
So that's that empathy. Empathy that flows through you, and
some people are higher or lower on the skill for that.
And then there's that perspective taking cognitive aspect where you're
processing through cognitively, and if you don't have the empathy,
that that's okay. You can have the cognitive and that's
enough too. That's how I see it.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
Yeah, This being able to have empathies one of the
most important relational skills we can develop. I think with
it too, because for me, it's not only what you
were saying, Jeff about being able to understand the feelings.
I've kind of added to that understanding their perspectives too
and having that go together. And that's been a growing
(12:28):
edge for me because like, Okay, I'll understand what you
feel about it, but I think your idea is dopey,
you know. But you know that's where I used to
would go with it too. But now I'm finding that,
especially depending on what we're talking about, that being able
to relate and try to understand both is enormously important
with her. Whether I agree with it or not again
(12:48):
is another thing, but I want her to be able
to have that generate that safety in doing that and
that connection and doing that so that relationally we build
things instead of tearing each other down.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
How much for you, Yeah, because I think in our
relationship it's like one of us.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Well, most relationships are like this.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
One is the more feeling person than the other, and
so in our relationship play is the more feeling person.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
So it's not gender.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Biased there, but it is like, but just understanding that somebody,
you know, Clay has many more like ten times more
feelings in a day or in an hour than I
would have in a day, and so being able to
really be okay with that and really be having empathy
for all those emotions and all those feelings that he has,
(13:40):
whereas I don't have to feel them. I don't have
to feel them, I don't have to get into them,
but I can also just allow the space and I
can have curiosity and wonder about all those emotions and
all those feelings and which kind of does would feel
overwhelming to me if I was feeling them? So if
I but the senate stems that we like to use
(14:02):
for the for the empathy piece is I can imagine,
I can imagine. So it's like I can't know those feelings,
I can't experience those.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
I'm not going to tell him how he feels or
you're not going to turn and so but just like, oh,
I can imagine that would.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Feel overwhelming, or I can imagine that would feel hurtful
when that happened. And and then are those your feelings,
but allowing that space to communicate with each other and
kind of this idea of like if you're in a
room and you're each seeing out a window, and each
of you are seeing different things out your window, and
(14:43):
you really can't see out their window, and they might say, oh, yeah,
I'm seeing a river or I'm seeing the sunshine, and
and and then I'm like, well, I don't know I'm
seeing I'm seeing a tree in a wall, and and
so you can't say, well, no, you're wrong, but it's like,
oh yeah, the only way you can know what they're.
Speaker 6 (15:02):
Seeing is if you listen, and you you know, if
you've listened and you've allowed them have your view through validation,
then you can go to that curiosity of well, tell
me more, how does that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
What is that going on on with you?
Speaker 5 (15:16):
There?
Speaker 4 (15:17):
And not by digging and not by pushing, but just
by allowing yourself to listen and to be there with them.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
It's that intention of connection, especially when it comes to empathy.
You know, because I care about you, because I want
a relationship to grow before I even get to whatever
we're talking about. I want to have a hard intention
to understanding you as fully as I possibly can with
that too, influding what you're feeling. Yeah, that's a challenging
(15:50):
thing when people personality wise or they've been in a
space where it's hard for them to do feelings. This
can be a real challenging part of the process with it.
And I know when we do this with couples and
we get them to it, if somebody's struggling with that,
and you probably use this in your counselor practice too.
I've got like a sheet of feelings.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Oh, yes, I have a pillow in my therapy room.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Yeah, pick one of these.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yes, it has the feelings circle on it, and I'm like, here,
here's the pillow.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
Because some people that's a really challenging thing if they've
grown up with a lot of trauma or things like
that where feelings were just not okay.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Not safe to feel.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
Yeah, not safe to feel exactly. And this is a
hard space to go to when you go with that.
So if you're listening to this and you are in
that space, just relax. You're okay with that too. But
it is a growing edge and it's important to be
able to go ahead and go to that space for
the sake of the connection and your relationship.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
With that, because that's kind of where the collaboration can
come from. You have to really be able to understand
their point of view, to really be able to kind
of understand that emotional space that because sometimes it's not
always about what we've said or or we've experienced, but
like you're kind of saying, it's those tones, it's those
(17:14):
underlying ripples that kind of cause things.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
I mean, it's one thing.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
I guess one example that we used to use, you know,
back when we had to pay for long distance. It's like, oh, yeah,
you could always say we're going to cut down our
long distance.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
When it wasn't just I remember that for that and
then like but then but then you're like, Okay, on paper,
it sounds like wonderful.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I mean, okay, yeah, we can trim down this long distance.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
But then if you live far away from your mom,
and then you're like, oh, well, I didn't know that
it meant that I wouldn't be able to.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Talk to her weekly.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
But sometimes you don't even understand until you're having this
budget and discussion that they're you know, it's just an
emotional thing. So empathy and understanding can lead to you know,
these discussions on all the things that we have to
talk about, you know, our finances, our kids, our discipline,
are you know, our in laws, all these things. That
(18:15):
emotional aspect is such a key proponent.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
And so you also brought up a great point, Sonya,
that I'd like to I'd like to go deeper into,
which is that I think that something that is a
struggle with empathy is the thought that I have to
take on the other person's emotion. Especially for me as
a feeling person, I've had to learn how to not
(18:43):
to be like, Okay, those are Jeff's feelings or those
are whoever's feelings, I'm not taking them in. And I
developed this visual for that called the hero's cup, which
is when somebody has a cup of feelings and you
have your cup. Their cup is full of feelings. So
this could be you and Clay, Sonya. So you your
cup that's empty and Clays is full, and what he's
(19:04):
wanting to do is just pour some of that liquid
into your cup so that you can look at it
and be like, oh, okay, I can see what that is.
I'm creating a space for it in my cup. But
you don't have to drink that liquid. You don't have
to take his emotions in, you don't have to do
anything with them. You don't have to make him feel better.
You don't have to shift it, you don't have to
lighten the mood. You don't have to do anything. You're
(19:26):
just looking at it and you're saying, those are there
and they are real, and you know, I can imagine
how it must feel to have that in your cup
and then you get to pour it out or pour
it back into his cup, or maybe both of you
are now pouring it out because he's processed it with
you and you created like the ability to release it,
and now it's it's released, or maybe he needs to
(19:49):
hold it a little bit longer because he's still working
through it. But it's not yours, it's not mine.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
That is a really great about my cup And I
don't have to light a lid on it.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
You don't have to drink it, but yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I can like that's interesting. I like that.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Thank you? Is that kind of how you guys maneuver?
How do you maneuver feelings like that? I'm just curious,
do you.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Want to meet? Okay, I want well, I want to
give you space to talk well. So that is pretty
much how I do it. And being a therapist, I
encountered heavy feelings all the time, and so therapists called
it like holding space, you know. But it's kind of
the same thing as the cup where I'm creating. I
have to empty my own cup as much as I can,
(20:39):
or be aware of what's in my cup at the
very least to be able to create space there too
for somebody else's, which is why when for couples, when
when somebody says is this a good time? It allows
people to empty their cups or create space in their
cups for somebody else. So I have to regulate myself
(21:01):
to be in a place to hear the other person's feelings,
and then I have to remind myself these are not
my feelings to take in, so I don't need to
do anything to make somebody else feel better. So that's
the cognitive thing I'm going through with myself so that
I don't make a joke or argue it, or you know,
(21:21):
try to shut somebody down or shift somebody because I'm
uncomfortable with their feelings. So they're not mine, they're theirs.
I'm here to witness and that's and that's that is
what they need. So I have to go through this
whole litle thing with myself. You have to do your
own self soothing and self talk, and then I can
be like, Okay, my job is to mirror and validate
(21:42):
and then understand what they're feeling from that, and that's
all I have to do. Their feelings are they need
to cope with their feelings, and they need their feelings
to figure out what to do with their problem or
what to what to, you know, whatever. They need their own.
They need their feelings as theirs, not mine. So those
(22:04):
are kind of the cognitive things I go through with myself.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I like that. That's really an important thing to mention.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, I mean I don't really take on her feelings.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I mean, naturally doesn't have to worry about that.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, so I don't. It's not really a problem. I mean,
I'm just I'm probably like the normal dude. Just she'll
tell me these so her feelings to me do come
across as problems and problems. It's like, so it's the
the difficulty to be like, I'm not just going to
work on Oh well, why don't you just do this
so like it's a that's more the resistance of for
(22:42):
me than anything else. To let her, let her explain it,
but not not going to like, oh, yeah that I'm
ready to Why are we Why are we even talking
about this?
Speaker 5 (22:54):
This is what you do? When did we talk about
that last month? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
I thought this was done.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Here. Let's just do this.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
You just did a solution. We won't even have to
look about it.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah. I think that's that is what you have to
work through, is to not you also to not shift
my feelings by problem solving. Yeah, That's what I've noticed
is people, really we care about each other and we
just want that if it's considered a negative feeling disappointment
or sadness or grief or something, we want that feeling
to go away for the other person.
Speaker 5 (23:29):
Yeah, and that's true both ways. So we use different tactics,
you know, where you're very empathetic. Jeff's going to be, well,
here's a problem, let's fix it with it too. I
don't want you feeling this way. And it's but we
kind of take that as an affront to us instead
of you know, it's not most of the time not
intended to be that. It's it's because I care about
(23:50):
you and I want you to feel better, so I'm
gonna do whatever I can do to try to make
that happen within my power. But it doesn't mean your need.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Though not have those emotions understood, emotions accepted.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yeah, that it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
The fact that you are are feeling this way and
that makes sense and to kind of like, especially one
of the people that's more feeling oriented, to like, oh, yeah,
I'm getting this, and I imagine you might also feel
all these other things and then check in because that
helps the non feeling person to kind of put words
(24:30):
to the feelings, which but then you have to avoid
the placing them on there.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Well, I bet you feel angry about that. Well, no,
but you qualify understood.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
You qualify that with a question, are those your feelings?
Speaker 6 (24:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (24:44):
Yeah, putting some out there sometimes if you're not used
to doing feelings with it too, then it's an easy
to come to that and go, no, I don't feel that.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I think it's more this, yeah, which is okay, right.
I Mean, the whole idea is that you're trying and
you're just putting something out there and if it's not right,
then it gives the other last, the other person in
the space to kind of figure out, well, actually, no,
I'm not feeling that way, and maybe they weren't even
aware if they were or were not, and then they
can explore further.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Well, I like the quote that feelings fully felt fade,
so to fit to allow yourself to fully feel your
feelings and then they can, like you said, that you
can process out of them if you discussed them and
they're being understood.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
But what you resist persists.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
So if we're resistant of our feelings, or if someone
else is resistant to our feelings, then that's.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
That's going to stick around.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
So and going back a couple of you know, quite
a while ago where you said that whole thing about
coming into a conversation with an empty cup.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
So that's doing the self soothing.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
That's you know, dealing with our situations so that our
feelings are current, our feelings are current in this moment,
and on having all these feelings about what happened last week,
even in y'all, even in our relationship, you know, because
that's what so happened, is that something happens and you
(26:10):
don't talk to it talk about it, and you don't
talk about it, and you don't talk about it, and
then it just kind of builds. It just builds, and
then you and then you talk about something else and
then a problem that play might have and then I'm like, well.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
What that happened two years ago? Yeah, where you can
listen to me.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
I'm trying to think, like you can't deal with the present,
like still holding that thing that happened two years ago.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
So being really really quick.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
To resolve the issues and to to talk about them
and to not hold on to them forever.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
One of the cool fruit things that comes out of
what you were talking about about the cell soothing is
it creates safety when you do that for yourself and
you do that off talk and you get your cup
where you can receive somebody's and look at them and
do that. When you create that safety for yourself and
making sure you're not overwhelmed by what you're going to
(27:10):
get with it, too, it creates safety for them at
the same time because then it's like it's okay for
me to dump that into your cup and let you
look at it so that you understand what's going on.
So there's a dual safety thing that happens in the
middle of that too, and when it comes to the
space between, that's such an integral part of that. So
then I can connect with you further because you've made
(27:32):
that effort and you've created that safety for yourself as well.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
As for me, right, yes, And so sometimes we might
be talking about something intense and I just kind of
step back, like literally step back just a little bit,
and I just have to breathe, and I'm like, I
need to breathe for a second, and I'll just do
some breathing. And then something that I do inside myself
too is I try to notice my own emotion and
(27:56):
have compassion for it, so that I'm not feeling while
he's trying to talk to me about how he's feeling,
I'm not also filling my own cup with my feelings.
I'm giving myself a second to process it. And I
think that's really a very acceptable thing to do too,
even if the other person's in the middle. If you're
realizing that you're getting overwhelmed, just take a second and
(28:18):
do some breathing and be like, Okay, I'm starting to
feel overwhelmed. I'm feeling this, and you know, I also
can put my hand over my heart and have a
moment of compassion for myself, like these are hard feelings
for me, or I'm really worried about him or whatever
is going on inside me, so that then I can
come back and be like, Okay, I'm here.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
The other, Jeff.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
But I was just going to say that the other.
The thing that she also when she's explaining the cup
analogy is she didn't she said what to do, But
what she also did not talk about is what a
lot of people do that keep the conflict going, which
is one person does pour it into the other person's cup,
(29:04):
and then that other person, instead of doing the empathy
and explaining and everything, they just throw it right back
in their face. And that's what they're and that's what's
caused keeps the thing going because they're saying that's what
you know, explaining like, oh, this is what you should do,
this is what you're doing. That's a stupid thing that
you're thinking. That's akin to taking the time the person's
(29:27):
pouring it into the thing, you're holding it and you
just go right in their face and yeah, of course
that's gonna that's not gonna go over good. Yeah, exactly, or.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Like in your example, Sonia, like place telling you his
feeling about something that's happening now, and you turn it
around back on him and throw back what happened two
years ago, Well you did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, so yeah, that's that's throwing it in their face
make feel bad. Yeah, of course. And then you're gonna
be like, I'm not gonna why am I bringing this
stuff up again? I know you're just gonna throw it
right back in my face.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
And that's what happens. We shut it down right there
because all of a sudden, that anxiety goes on because
we've had dumped in our face and we're we're done connecting.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yes, that's why I always love this. I love this
thing that she can she came up with that. I
thought that was just brilliant.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
So the person that has dumped the cup, though, they
keep talking and the other person's out here going I'm done.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, yeah, never mind anymore.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Listening to a freaking words you're.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Saying, have a nice day, speaking of this kind of
cup metaphor that you used, And it's like if you
and this is most of the time when you have
a conversation, is that you kind of have feelings about
this or what the person is saying is provoking feeling.
So your cup is getting filled in and then they
(30:49):
if you put that in there, then it's all mixed together,
and you're like, well, you know, it's like what happens
when you, you know, mix two colors of playdough together
and it's all a gray and ikey. And so it's
kind of like being able to separate, keep my emotions
(31:10):
separate from your emotions. I think it's a trick and
kind of that when you were saying that we don't
want to throw it back at them, but we also
want to allow it to stay separate and not be
like oh yeah and then come back, but also knowing
that we're going to have a chance to share our feelings.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Well, that's the thing is it stays separate if you
take care of what was in the cup for the
other person, pour it out, run through the process, then
you can work on yours, fill it.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Up, and then sometimes you just take a break and
keep and keep pouring your own stuff out.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Yeah, And that's where we talked about before, about moving
from monologue where I'm talking and you're listening. I have
the good you need them to dialogue makes all the
difference in the world because you know you're going to
have that opportunity to do that back. Yes, absolutely, instead
of going a string that too, And that's that's an
integral part of the whole thing, is moving to that
(32:05):
dialog space and knowing that's going to belong with it too,
because otherwise you know you're gonna push back or you're
gonna throw the cup in the price or whatever because
you don't think you're going to be able to share.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Yeah, And I think our history comes into this. Our
past really does come in this. Are we are we
used to being heard? Are we used to having our
feelings shut down? Then that we have that internal expectation
that's often not even conscious, it's kind of like but
then we kind of put it on them. It's like, well,
you're not listening because you're not looking at me, or
you're looking at your phone or something like that, So
(32:35):
why am I even talking to you?
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And you go into this whole.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Thing instead of just like saying I need I need
you to listen.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Is this a good time?
Speaker 5 (32:45):
In fact? Yes, family of origin has a huge thing
to do with that right there with you too, like
with my family it's like nobody listened to anybody, and
it was the one who yelled the loudest one, even
to the point of having a fist fight in front York.
I'll make my point one way or the other. So
let's go with it too. And if you've come out
of that and then you bring that to the space
(33:06):
with a smileuse you know, good luck, because our tendency
is going to be to do those same things, which
is pure monologue unless you go here. And for me,
that was a life changer in our relationship of being
able to learn to go to dialogue that if I'll
go to that space, I actually will be listened to
(33:26):
without having to get intense to the point of the
front yard or whatever. That was a huge step for.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Me, super healing, for you, super healing.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
It was super growing too. It was a structure to
not because my intendency was like, let me just attack
you like I always have. And it's like, okay, now
you don't have to do that. Just back up and
let's go here instead of here, you know, let's go
to dialogue instead of monologue with it.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, if you would just if you just went with this,
kept going with the cut thing, it'd be akin to
your family is always covering it up, they're moving it around,
and you're having to fight, like just to even get
you got to knock them down just to see. I
pointed in on won. Yeah I'm one, it's in there,
(34:15):
but it's not done because I didn't.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Do that exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
And then I think that we haven't mentioned that shame.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
So we often experienced that shame for the feelings that
we had when you shouldn't feel angry, or you shouldn't
feel that way, or just get over it.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
And and then can you.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
Come in on that about you know, because you grew
up in a family we're feelings, we're not cool with
that too. How does that? How did that impact you?
That shame?
Speaker 4 (34:46):
I think I think I learned it really really early
because I was the youngest of seven, so there were
lots of emotions and there really wasn't any room for
my emotions, so I would always had to be happy.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
That's how I got my niece.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
And that was just being happy, being cheerful, being encouraging
and supp everyone around me. And yeah, my feelings always
got under a rock until you know adulthood, when you
know that rock was like not heavy enough. And I
often joke because of our career choices and things like that, Yeah,
I'm a special At teachers, we often did relief and
(35:17):
development work, so I was always searching for a bigger rock,
people with bigger problems than me, so so kind of learning.
And I think it was just like when life gets
so overwhelming that you can't hide it under a rock anymore,
and then you just like have this thing.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
But to me, I.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Believe it was this process that was so healing because
it's the empathy piece where the healing happens. It's when
someone has listened to you, someone has validated your right.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
To have these experiences, and then being with it in you.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
It's like not so much walking in my shoes because
nobody really can walk in your shoes, but you we
walk together, oh yeah, and then so it's like you
can walk together and it's not like like healing partners
that often we feel like, oh, we have to fix them.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Because you know, I just fix everybody, That's what I do.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
But it's that sense of healing partners is just journeying
through this together and I'm here with you. When Clay
could like put down his stuff and really, really okay,
I know that your emotions aren't huge and big, but
they're valid and that they're there, and.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
It's really hard for you to go there.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
And yeah, it's really hard for to go to go
there until, you know, until they're just so huge that
you have to like stomp your feet and scream and
have a tantrum.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
But instead of that, we went to dialogue. Yeah, and
that was one of the cool things that happened out
of that was she got a voice. Yeah, it was
okay for her to share what she thought and felt
about whatever with it too, and it to be able
to have that mirror back and validated and the empathized
with that was a game check for because she had
never experienced that. She didn't get to have that.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And to know that you're not alone with your feelings,
I mean, that's so profound of just if you're you're
having a feeling and you know that you don't have
to shove it down under a rock. You have a
partner who you can share that feeling with and they're
going to hear it and be with you on it.
That's I mean, that to me is Loneliness is the epidemic,
(37:26):
right and we can be lonely with being partnered, being
in a family, being in a group, but it's that
it's the empathy piece that makes us connect to our humanity.
Speaker 5 (37:37):
We were We did coaching with a lot of couples
that there they're rolass roommates, but that pretty much live
parallel lives, not only in practice in their lives, but
they do emotionally. And it's because that connection is not
there and they're not going to go there with it too.
It's it's not safe enough to do it, and so
they don't get to be those feeling partners with John.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
So if you guys ever listen, I think I brought
him up last time to Chris Voss with the book
Never Split the Difference the yeah, yes, and and he
always goes into the how he used what he called
tactical empathy. Did you ever remember remember that part?
Speaker 5 (38:22):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, I mean a lot of the stuff he would
talk about how that would be, and he would do
things like he he had things and I don't know
every one of them right atop of my head, but
he would do stuff like you would say, oh that
he'd let the you know, the hostage while he's doing
hostage negotiation. He goes it sounds like and you you know,
he would do those various things like you're talking about,
(38:44):
where he would use various stems to get these people,
to disarm them, to let them know that they're being heard,
and that's how they could get you know, these terrible
situations under control. But he called it tactical empathy, which
I thought was interesting term.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
Mmmm, that is interesting because.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
I mean going back to this is where collaboration comes from.
Even though Chris Boss doesn't have about collaboration, but he
does talk about everybody coming to a solution that feels
good to them, and for him it's the people are
alive and coming back. But somehow the negotiator or the
other side has to feel like it's good for them
too to actually do that. But I do think in
(39:29):
a in a couple sense, it's like or even in
a sense, I think this is where we really really
having empathy to.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Why is this hard for you and why is this
an issue and.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
Understanding that before you go into even solution.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
Mode.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
And we were speaking I think it was last weekend
at a retreat for high level executives, and they were
talking about, well, how is this how does this work
when you've got a problem that you have to solve
and it's like, well, you gotta gotta know what the
sides are. You gotta know what what's happening, and the
person has to feel heard and seen and valued and connected.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
And the flip of that for them was, Okay, how
about how long are you taking to do damage control
with when you guys aren't connecting and relating and being
able to solve a problem. How long is that taking
for you all weeks at a time? Right about? How
about trying dialogue for twenty or thirty minutes and see
if that makes a difference.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Just a thought, right because you know, in order to
get to problem solving, a lot of people want to
jump right into that, like you were saying, they want
the time to be short on the front end. But
if you spend all this time joining and connecting and
empathizing and really you know, again, connecting on that human
(40:43):
level and we're a team and we are doing this together,
then the problem solving that we all want to do,
how do we get to the to figure out what
to do with this problem? It happens so much more naturally,
and it's a it's a it's a long term investment
that you're making into whatever relationship it is, whether it's
a business relationship, romantic with your child, or whatever. It's
(41:07):
the joining that's incredibly important. You can't get anywhere if
you don't do that. You just can't. You have to
meet people where they are.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
But in two things we're critical to do that though.
One is making it a must. We must do this,
you know, not a word a Shotakota, It's got to
be a must. And the other thing realizing what you're
doing is resetting the culture in your in your marriage,
your family, your business, whatever you're doing with it. You're
creating a relational culture in that setting, whatever that looks like,
(41:34):
because you're you doing it a different way than you
normally would, and that when you've got that understanding with it, it
really makes a difference. And actually in the business edting,
I see it softened conversations. It's often problem solving where
you know groups or people might be more intense. But
it's true with couples too, because that's the goal here.
(41:56):
We're creating that that space, that kind of space each
other as we're doing this.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
It's a good mic drop moment right there. Yeah, Yeah,
I think we've created a case for empathy here.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Well it is.
Speaker 4 (42:16):
I think it is kind of that key to understanding
connection and collaboration, and I just want to.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
Encourage folks to to as they've listened to the whole series,
don't leave the empathy part out. You know, sometimes we
have a tendency once we've heard and we've mirrored and
we've got the information with it, too, sometimes we forget
to validate and most especially sometimes we forget to empathize
with it. And it's really important to do the whole
(42:46):
process so that your partner really feels like you're connected
at every level and understanding as much as possible at
every level, and empathy is a big part of that.
Everybody wants to be listened to, Everybody wants to be validated,
everybody wants to be empathized with. There's not a person
on the planet, I don't care what culture, and then
you don't want that. So just realizing do the whole
(43:09):
process to make sure that it's the most.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Effective for yeah, because you know, I think of the
loneliness I was bringing up, and no matter what happens
during the day, if we know that we can come
home to a partner who's going to empathize with us.
It's like you're carrying that around as a shield all
day long, no matter what happens to you. You know,
(43:34):
when I get home, I can talk to my partner
about it. Or for instance, I'm in perimenopause and so
sleep sometimes can really be struggle for me. And Jeff
had made a habit of asking me first thing in
the morning, how did you sleep? So even if I'm
up in the night or I'm struggling, I'm like, he's
going to care about that in the morning, and it
actually sues me and helps me get back to sleep
(43:56):
because I know that he cares. And I mean just
caring that around is so profound and so powerful. There
is nothing like that.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Oh I love that great job, Jeff. That Yeah, I
guess that's a challenging thing. And if it calms calm.
Speaker 6 (44:15):
Yeah, And it's knowing that now you know that and
then and that how effective that is because it's really
it's a little things.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
It's not the big, gigantic things. It's those little actions.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Yeah, that's what builds the momental I have the relationship
you want.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, Well, this has been another awesome conversation and really
appreciate y'all's time to do this. I'm glad we got
to be and get to be on your YouTube channel
as well. And so for people who are looking for us,
you can find us on make Moore, Love Not War
dot com and then Clay and Sonia. For people who
(44:53):
are looking for you, where can they find you?
Speaker 5 (44:55):
Art Life Coaching DFW, d IS and dog df W.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Okay, awesome, Well, thank you audience for being here and
listening to this.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
Thank you so much, and we've enjoyed this. We'll have
to come up with another topic to do a series on.
Speaker 5 (45:13):
I think we'll do you next time. We'll interview you
next time.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
We're down for it, all right, all right,
Let's get started. Hi, and welcome to make more Love
not War. This is Tara Harrison, licensed professional counselor and
relationship expert.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is her husband, Jeff Harrison, of no qualifications whatsoever,
just a normal dude.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hello, and welcome to make More Love not War. Today
we have Clay and Sonya Arnold with us for the
third time. We're doing our trifecta of communication. So we
started with mirroring and then the next one was validating,
and today we are tackling empathy. So Clay and Sonya,
(00:46):
please remind us of who you are, where you come from,
and then we'll just kind of go over mirroring and
validating before we get into empathy.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Yeah, So we're Clay and Sonya Heart Life Coaching, and
we believe that marriage is something that's amazing and should
be enjoyed and you should thrive rather than just survive
it and endure it. And a lot of times it's
skills that people don't have, not that they're married to
the wrong person or that they're bad people, but that
they just don't have the skills. So that's kind of
(01:15):
what we're all about. And yeah, I'm excited to get
into empathy. It is one of our favorite, our favorite.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Topics, and remind us what your YouTube channel is called.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
It's Heart Life Coaching DFW stands for Dallas Fort Worth.
So we kind of started, you know, before we were
all over the world, when we were just in our
little North Texas world.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
But yeah, Heart Life Coaching DFW.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, so those of us, of those of you who
are listening to this on our podcast can also access
this video on their YouTube channel if you want to
see our beautiful faces too.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
See how amazing these guys look.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And you too. We're all awesome, I mean, yeah, yeah.
So last time we covered mirroring and then validation, So
if y'all wouldn't mind, wouldn't mind providing a little nutshell
on that before we go into empathy, that would be awesome.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
You know. The whole goal of what we've been talking
about is to be able to talk without criticism, how
to really listen without judgment, and how to connect beyond
our differences, which is the number one reason why couples
have conflict. So we've been talking about the we were
talking about these three tools and how to do that
in a space that's safe to connect so that we
(02:34):
can communicate, and we need that progression that the safety
has got to be there in the space between us
so that we can connect and then we can effectively communicate.
It's safety and connections not there, good luck communicating, and
we already have the challenges we talked about. One of
the last last videos we did with you was you know,
(02:56):
discussing that you know, we retain about twenty percent of
what we here and if that's if you're in a
good mood, and if anything's emotionally charged, that can drop marginally,
So it's really important to work on bringing that safety
and connection to the space. One of the first things
we do we have talked about that is mirroring, and
(03:18):
by that we're talking about not just parent parenting somebody,
but being able to relate back to what you're here
with accuracy to make sure that you're listening. Is effective.
And I love mirroring because it helps us to avoid
(03:40):
the little little while you're an analyst, so we have
on our shoulder because if Sony is talking to me
and I'm preparing rebuttal because I'm irritated at it or
I'm figuring out how to fix it, I'm not listening
and the only way I've learned to get rid of
those guys is to do the mirroring so that I
(04:00):
can really be engaged in listening to be able to
do that, and we talked specifically about some sentence stems
that we use to do that, which had been researched
over the past forty years to be able to do
that effectively. And those senate stems we talked about on
one of the other podcasts was let me see if
(04:21):
I got that? You said? Did I get it? And
is there more about that? And then be able to
give a recap at the end. And by utilizing those
senate stems, what we're actually doing in our brain is
we're integrating ourselves from being stuck in the motional part
of our brain and getting us up to the front
of cortex where we find win wins and solutions and
(04:43):
we're really able to effectively connect with each other at
a different level. But we also talked about validation.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
And the validation so once you've heard your partner and.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
You've really been able to listen to them and they've
kind of shared all that they want to share, and
they know that they're hurt and they know that to listen.
So validation is one of the key things in that
you're really you may not agree with what they said,
but you are giving the right to.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
That.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
They have a right to have their own opinion, they
have a right to have their viewpoint, they have a
right to have their own experience.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
And the sin instems that we encourage people to use
for that one is well, that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
And again it might not make sense to you, but
you are saying, well, it makes sense based on what
you've just told me.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
And if it doesn't make sense to you, that they
make sense if you just.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Need to listen more and sometimes you need to hear more,
be more curious. Yeah, And so that's the validation step
that is often hard for people because we often want
to be right. We don't want you to be right,
We want me to be right, and we want you
to think the same thing as I think.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
And that's such a huge point because when somebody what
they're saying to is we don't agree with it, or
it doesn't make sense to us with it too, we
tend to take that personal as an attack against our
and it's really not that. It's just that they've had
a different life experiences you know, different growing up with
their caretakers. Who knows what all's contributing to that to
(06:09):
get the perspective that they have. So if I come
at it from curiosity point of view instead of being right,
then that changes all the ways I interact with that.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
And yeah, you do have to move away from right.
If I have to be right, then you have to
be wrong. But you know, you can both be.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Right even if they're opposing views because they're your views.
And sometimes we do have to talk a little bit more,
especially we have do you have to come to a
decision together, Then it requires a little bit more understanding
and have a little bit But oftentimes you come up
with not solution A or B, but you come up
with solution FG.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Yeah, I love how people argue with me about that
with it too, but it's like, that's not how life
works with it. That's like, well, okay, let's talk about light.
Light's measured in particles as well as waves. How can
that they're both opposing things? How can that be?
Speaker 3 (07:03):
You know?
Speaker 5 (07:03):
So it's different. We're filled with all kinds of natural
antonomies in our in our in our world and our culture.
Why not this? Yeah, we both have a different perspective
and that be okay.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, And it's the beauty of gray for gray exactly,
and the beauty of all of our colors.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Actually, because there's so differences is not a bad thing.
We can make differences to be great and wonderful and
an ally rather than something that creates conflict, because like, oh, yeah,
it's great that you you see it that way. Yeah,
it's great that you, you know, want to have everything
(07:42):
in its place all.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Over the office.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
It's also great that I am very very busy, so
I have piles all over the place.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
And it's also great that I have my little area
that I don't want your crap on my desk either.
So there we go.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yes, So there's the compromise, right, there's where you figure
out how to honor each other's needs because you listened
through it and understood that Sonia has this way of
organizing things and Clay has a different way, and they're
both they're both okay. It's just figuring out how to
work together. Just like Jeff and I we we brainstorm
(08:16):
in very different ways, and we work together on a
lot of projects. And his energy and my energy are
just very different, so we're always trying to adjust to that,
you know, of just like he wants to go from
like zero to one hundred, like let's get there, and
I'm like, I need to have little bits and then
I need to go off and think about it and
I need to like process, and then I need to
(08:37):
come back and I get overwhelmed. And he's like giving
me all these ideas and he's like, that's brainstorming, and
I'm like, but that's overwhelming. So even understanding like how
we just process language differently and communicate differently, Like that's
that meta can higher level of like figuring out, oh wait,
we even have like different the way that tone affects
(08:58):
us and all of that stuff is different and that's okay.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
Ye, And who we are in our personalities. It contributes
a lot to that too, because you know, of if
you're a big picture person in a visionary, you're going
to do that pretty rapid fire eyes. Yes, that's him
and people like me. I'm a very detailed person and
very very anal about it. And when I do it,
I want to take that into not only points, but
(09:21):
many points to go with the pup, you know, and
kind of kind of a little bit either one or fine,
but just that processing and that difference in the way
we do it can make a big difference.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Yeah, And I found like, oh, asking for permission, like, oh,
is that a good time for me to.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Share an idea? And sometimes it is and sometimes it's not.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
When I'm just woken up without a cup of coffee.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yes, I have all these big ideas in my mind, Jeff,
I don't know if you do this, but just like
they're I've been processing. It's like, oh, oh, I had
this great idea, and I'll just go off and start
talking about it and then plays like yeah, but by
just like saying, you know, just like oh, leading in, Oh,
can we talk about this idea I have about work,
(10:09):
about the family, about Christmas.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
That's just kind of like, oh.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
My god, let's let's pause and then like let's eat
breakfast and then we can.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Talk about this, right, which is where you know the
empathy comes in, right of each having empathy for each
other's experience, Sonia, you having empathy for Clay's feeling of overwhelm, like, oh, okay,
that's really deeply uncomfortable for him, and what can I
do to help with that so that we can come
together around being able to discuss Christmas or what was
(10:43):
it pumpkin bread last time?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You know, I'm just like.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Whatever thing it is.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
Yeah, oh yeah, So well that was a good segue
into Yeah, let's talk about empathy.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
How do you see empathy being I'm just curious, Jeff,
how do you define empathy?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Hm?
Speaker 5 (11:01):
Hmm, there you go.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Well, I mean, to me, empathy is you know, understanding
how the other person feels. That's the way I would
define it.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
M h that makes sense? Is that.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Allowing space for that?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah? And also there's the cognitive aspect, which is the
perspective taking. So to me, there's a few different aspects.
There's the emotional and then there's the cognitive. So the
understanding of how people feel is emotional, and some people
can can also feel people's feelings, which I resonate with
that where I can like just feel the energy coming
(11:43):
from Jeff and I'm like, I know how we feel.
So that's that empathy. Empathy that flows through you, and
some people are higher or lower on the skill for that.
And then there's that perspective taking cognitive aspect where you're
processing through cognitively, and if you don't have the empathy,
that that's okay. You can have the cognitive and that's
enough too. That's how I see it.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
Yeah, This being able to have empathies one of the
most important relational skills we can develop. I think with
it too, because for me, it's not only what you
were saying, Jeff about being able to understand the feelings.
I've kind of added to that understanding their perspectives too
and having that go together. And that's been a growing
(12:28):
edge for me because like, Okay, I'll understand what you
feel about it, but I think your idea is dopey,
you know. But you know that's where I used to
would go with it too. But now I'm finding that,
especially depending on what we're talking about, that being able
to relate and try to understand both is enormously important
with her. Whether I agree with it or not again
(12:48):
is another thing, but I want her to be able
to have that generate that safety in doing that and
that connection and doing that so that relationally we build
things instead of tearing each other down.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
How much for you, Yeah, because I think in our
relationship it's like one of us.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Well, most relationships are like this.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
One is the more feeling person than the other, and
so in our relationship play is the more feeling person.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
So it's not gender.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Biased there, but it is like, but just understanding that somebody,
you know, Clay has many more like ten times more
feelings in a day or in an hour than I
would have in a day, and so being able to
really be okay with that and really be having empathy
for all those emotions and all those feelings that he has,
(13:40):
whereas I don't have to feel them. I don't have
to feel them, I don't have to get into them,
but I can also just allow the space and I
can have curiosity and wonder about all those emotions and
all those feelings and which kind of does would feel
overwhelming to me if I was feeling them? So if
I but the senate stems that we like to use
(14:02):
for the for the empathy piece is I can imagine,
I can imagine. So it's like I can't know those feelings,
I can't experience those.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
I'm not going to tell him how he feels or
you're not going to turn and so but just like, oh,
I can imagine that would.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Feel overwhelming, or I can imagine that would feel hurtful
when that happened. And and then are those your feelings,
but allowing that space to communicate with each other and
kind of this idea of like if you're in a
room and you're each seeing out a window, and each
of you are seeing different things out your window, and
(14:43):
you really can't see out their window, and they might say, oh, yeah,
I'm seeing a river or I'm seeing the sunshine, and
and and then I'm like, well, I don't know I'm
seeing I'm seeing a tree in a wall, and and
so you can't say, well, no, you're wrong, but it's like,
oh yeah, the only way you can know what they're.
Speaker 6 (15:02):
Seeing is if you listen, and you you know, if
you've listened and you've allowed them have your view through validation,
then you can go to that curiosity of well, tell
me more, how does that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
What is that going on on with you?
Speaker 5 (15:16):
There?
Speaker 4 (15:17):
And not by digging and not by pushing, but just
by allowing yourself to listen and to be there with them.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
It's that intention of connection, especially when it comes to empathy.
You know, because I care about you, because I want
a relationship to grow before I even get to whatever
we're talking about. I want to have a hard intention
to understanding you as fully as I possibly can with
that too, influding what you're feeling. Yeah, that's a challenging
(15:50):
thing when people personality wise or they've been in a
space where it's hard for them to do feelings. This
can be a real challenging part of the process with it.
And I know when we do this with couples and
we get them to it, if somebody's struggling with that,
and you probably use this in your counselor practice too.
I've got like a sheet of feelings.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Oh, yes, I have a pillow in my therapy room.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Yeah, pick one of these.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yes, it has the feelings circle on it, and I'm like, here,
here's the pillow.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
Because some people that's a really challenging thing if they've
grown up with a lot of trauma or things like
that where feelings were just not okay.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Not safe to feel.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
Yeah, not safe to feel exactly. And this is a
hard space to go to when you go with that.
So if you're listening to this and you are in
that space, just relax. You're okay with that too. But
it is a growing edge and it's important to be
able to go ahead and go to that space for
the sake of the connection and your relationship.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
With that, because that's kind of where the collaboration can
come from. You have to really be able to understand
their point of view, to really be able to kind
of understand that emotional space that because sometimes it's not
always about what we've said or or we've experienced, but
like you're kind of saying, it's those tones, it's those
(17:14):
underlying ripples that kind of cause things.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
I mean, it's one thing.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
I guess one example that we used to use, you know,
back when we had to pay for long distance. It's like, oh, yeah,
you could always say we're going to cut down our
long distance.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
When it wasn't just I remember that for that and
then like but then but then you're like, Okay, on paper,
it sounds like wonderful.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I mean, okay, yeah, we can trim down this long distance.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
But then if you live far away from your mom,
and then you're like, oh, well, I didn't know that
it meant that I wouldn't be able to.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Talk to her weekly.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
But sometimes you don't even understand until you're having this
budget and discussion that they're you know, it's just an
emotional thing. So empathy and understanding can lead to you know,
these discussions on all the things that we have to
talk about, you know, our finances, our kids, our discipline,
are you know, our in laws, all these things. That
(18:15):
emotional aspect is such a key proponent.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
And so you also brought up a great point, Sonya,
that I'd like to I'd like to go deeper into,
which is that I think that something that is a
struggle with empathy is the thought that I have to
take on the other person's emotion. Especially for me as
a feeling person, I've had to learn how to not
(18:43):
to be like, Okay, those are Jeff's feelings or those
are whoever's feelings, I'm not taking them in. And I
developed this visual for that called the hero's cup, which
is when somebody has a cup of feelings and you
have your cup. Their cup is full of feelings. So
this could be you and Clay, Sonya. So you your
cup that's empty and Clays is full, and what he's
(19:04):
wanting to do is just pour some of that liquid
into your cup so that you can look at it
and be like, oh, okay, I can see what that is.
I'm creating a space for it in my cup. But
you don't have to drink that liquid. You don't have
to take his emotions in, you don't have to do
anything with them. You don't have to make him feel better.
You don't have to shift it, you don't have to
lighten the mood. You don't have to do anything. You're
(19:26):
just looking at it and you're saying, those are there
and they are real, and you know, I can imagine
how it must feel to have that in your cup
and then you get to pour it out or pour
it back into his cup, or maybe both of you
are now pouring it out because he's processed it with
you and you created like the ability to release it,
and now it's it's released, or maybe he needs to
(19:49):
hold it a little bit longer because he's still working
through it. But it's not yours, it's not mine.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
That is a really great about my cup And I
don't have to light a lid on it.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
You don't have to drink it, but yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I can like that's interesting. I like that.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Thank you? Is that kind of how you guys maneuver?
How do you maneuver feelings like that? I'm just curious,
do you.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Want to meet? Okay, I want well, I want to
give you space to talk well. So that is pretty
much how I do it. And being a therapist, I
encountered heavy feelings all the time, and so therapists called
it like holding space, you know. But it's kind of
the same thing as the cup where I'm creating. I
have to empty my own cup as much as I can,
(20:39):
or be aware of what's in my cup at the
very least to be able to create space there too
for somebody else's, which is why when for couples, when
when somebody says is this a good time? It allows
people to empty their cups or create space in their
cups for somebody else. So I have to regulate myself
(21:01):
to be in a place to hear the other person's feelings,
and then I have to remind myself these are not
my feelings to take in, so I don't need to
do anything to make somebody else feel better. So that's
the cognitive thing I'm going through with myself so that
I don't make a joke or argue it, or you know,
(21:21):
try to shut somebody down or shift somebody because I'm
uncomfortable with their feelings. So they're not mine, they're theirs.
I'm here to witness and that's and that's that is
what they need. So I have to go through this
whole litle thing with myself. You have to do your
own self soothing and self talk, and then I can
be like, Okay, my job is to mirror and validate
(21:42):
and then understand what they're feeling from that, and that's
all I have to do. Their feelings are they need
to cope with their feelings, and they need their feelings
to figure out what to do with their problem or
what to what to, you know, whatever. They need their own.
They need their feelings as theirs, not mine. So those
(22:04):
are kind of the cognitive things I go through with myself.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I like that. That's really an important thing to mention.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, I mean I don't really take on her feelings.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I mean, naturally doesn't have to worry about that.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, so I don't. It's not really a problem. I mean,
I'm just I'm probably like the normal dude. Just she'll
tell me these so her feelings to me do come
across as problems and problems. It's like, so it's the
the difficulty to be like, I'm not just going to
work on Oh well, why don't you just do this
so like it's a that's more the resistance of for
(22:42):
me than anything else. To let her, let her explain it,
but not not going to like, oh, yeah that I'm
ready to Why are we Why are we even talking
about this?
Speaker 5 (22:54):
This is what you do? When did we talk about
that last month? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
I thought this was done.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Here. Let's just do this.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
You just did a solution. We won't even have to
look about it.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah. I think that's that is what you have to
work through, is to not you also to not shift
my feelings by problem solving. Yeah, That's what I've noticed
is people, really we care about each other and we
just want that if it's considered a negative feeling disappointment
or sadness or grief or something, we want that feeling
to go away for the other person.
Speaker 5 (23:29):
Yeah, and that's true both ways. So we use different tactics,
you know, where you're very empathetic. Jeff's going to be, well,
here's a problem, let's fix it with it too. I
don't want you feeling this way. And it's but we
kind of take that as an affront to us instead
of you know, it's not most of the time not
intended to be that. It's it's because I care about
(23:50):
you and I want you to feel better, so I'm
gonna do whatever I can do to try to make
that happen within my power. But it doesn't mean your need.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Though not have those emotions understood, emotions accepted.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yeah, that it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
The fact that you are are feeling this way and
that makes sense and to kind of like, especially one
of the people that's more feeling oriented, to like, oh, yeah,
I'm getting this, and I imagine you might also feel
all these other things and then check in because that
helps the non feeling person to kind of put words
(24:30):
to the feelings, which but then you have to avoid
the placing them on there.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Well, I bet you feel angry about that. Well, no,
but you qualify understood.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
You qualify that with a question, are those your feelings?
Speaker 6 (24:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (24:44):
Yeah, putting some out there sometimes if you're not used
to doing feelings with it too, then it's an easy
to come to that and go, no, I don't feel that.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I think it's more this, yeah, which is okay, right.
I Mean, the whole idea is that you're trying and
you're just putting something out there and if it's not right,
then it gives the other last, the other person in
the space to kind of figure out, well, actually, no,
I'm not feeling that way, and maybe they weren't even
aware if they were or were not, and then they
can explore further.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Well, I like the quote that feelings fully felt fade,
so to fit to allow yourself to fully feel your
feelings and then they can, like you said, that you
can process out of them if you discussed them and
they're being understood.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
But what you resist persists.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
So if we're resistant of our feelings, or if someone
else is resistant to our feelings, then that's.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
That's going to stick around.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
So and going back a couple of you know, quite
a while ago where you said that whole thing about
coming into a conversation with an empty cup.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
So that's doing the self soothing.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
That's you know, dealing with our situations so that our
feelings are current, our feelings are current in this moment,
and on having all these feelings about what happened last week,
even in y'all, even in our relationship, you know, because
that's what so happened, is that something happens and you
(26:10):
don't talk to it talk about it, and you don't
talk about it, and you don't talk about it, and
then it just kind of builds. It just builds, and
then you and then you talk about something else and
then a problem that play might have and then I'm like, well.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
What that happened two years ago? Yeah, where you can
listen to me.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
I'm trying to think, like you can't deal with the present,
like still holding that thing that happened two years ago.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
So being really really quick.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
To resolve the issues and to to talk about them
and to not hold on to them forever.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
One of the cool fruit things that comes out of
what you were talking about about the cell soothing is
it creates safety when you do that for yourself and
you do that off talk and you get your cup
where you can receive somebody's and look at them and
do that. When you create that safety for yourself and
making sure you're not overwhelmed by what you're going to
(27:10):
get with it, too, it creates safety for them at
the same time because then it's like it's okay for
me to dump that into your cup and let you
look at it so that you understand what's going on.
So there's a dual safety thing that happens in the
middle of that too, and when it comes to the
space between, that's such an integral part of that. So
then I can connect with you further because you've made
(27:32):
that effort and you've created that safety for yourself as well.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
As for me, right, yes, And so sometimes we might
be talking about something intense and I just kind of
step back, like literally step back just a little bit,
and I just have to breathe, and I'm like, I
need to breathe for a second, and I'll just do
some breathing. And then something that I do inside myself
too is I try to notice my own emotion and
(27:56):
have compassion for it, so that I'm not feeling while
he's trying to talk to me about how he's feeling,
I'm not also filling my own cup with my feelings.
I'm giving myself a second to process it. And I
think that's really a very acceptable thing to do too,
even if the other person's in the middle. If you're
realizing that you're getting overwhelmed, just take a second and
(28:18):
do some breathing and be like, Okay, I'm starting to
feel overwhelmed. I'm feeling this, and you know, I also
can put my hand over my heart and have a
moment of compassion for myself, like these are hard feelings
for me, or I'm really worried about him or whatever
is going on inside me, so that then I can
come back and be like, Okay, I'm here.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
The other, Jeff.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
But I was just going to say that the other.
The thing that she also when she's explaining the cup
analogy is she didn't she said what to do, But
what she also did not talk about is what a
lot of people do that keep the conflict going, which
is one person does pour it into the other person's cup,
(29:04):
and then that other person, instead of doing the empathy
and explaining and everything, they just throw it right back
in their face. And that's what they're and that's what's
caused keeps the thing going because they're saying that's what
you know, explaining like, oh, this is what you should do,
this is what you're doing. That's a stupid thing that
you're thinking. That's akin to taking the time the person's
(29:27):
pouring it into the thing, you're holding it and you
just go right in their face and yeah, of course
that's gonna that's not gonna go over good. Yeah, exactly, or.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Like in your example, Sonia, like place telling you his
feeling about something that's happening now, and you turn it
around back on him and throw back what happened two
years ago, Well you did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, so yeah, that's that's throwing it in their face
make feel bad. Yeah, of course. And then you're gonna
be like, I'm not gonna why am I bringing this
stuff up again? I know you're just gonna throw it
right back in my face.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
And that's what happens. We shut it down right there
because all of a sudden, that anxiety goes on because
we've had dumped in our face and we're we're done connecting.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yes, that's why I always love this. I love this
thing that she can she came up with that. I
thought that was just brilliant.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
So the person that has dumped the cup, though, they
keep talking and the other person's out here going I'm done.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, yeah, never mind anymore.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Listening to a freaking words you're.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Saying, have a nice day, speaking of this kind of
cup metaphor that you used, And it's like if you
and this is most of the time when you have
a conversation, is that you kind of have feelings about
this or what the person is saying is provoking feeling.
So your cup is getting filled in and then they
(30:49):
if you put that in there, then it's all mixed together,
and you're like, well, you know, it's like what happens
when you, you know, mix two colors of playdough together
and it's all a gray and ikey. And so it's
kind of like being able to separate, keep my emotions
(31:10):
separate from your emotions. I think it's a trick and
kind of that when you were saying that we don't
want to throw it back at them, but we also
want to allow it to stay separate and not be
like oh yeah and then come back, but also knowing
that we're going to have a chance to share our feelings.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Well, that's the thing is it stays separate if you
take care of what was in the cup for the
other person, pour it out, run through the process, then
you can work on yours, fill it.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Up, and then sometimes you just take a break and
keep and keep pouring your own stuff out.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Yeah, And that's where we talked about before, about moving
from monologue where I'm talking and you're listening. I have
the good you need them to dialogue makes all the
difference in the world because you know you're going to
have that opportunity to do that back. Yes, absolutely, instead
of going a string that too, And that's that's an
integral part of the whole thing, is moving to that
(32:05):
dialog space and knowing that's going to belong with it too,
because otherwise you know you're gonna push back or you're
gonna throw the cup in the price or whatever because
you don't think you're going to be able to share.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Yeah, And I think our history comes into this. Our
past really does come in this. Are we are we
used to being heard? Are we used to having our
feelings shut down? Then that we have that internal expectation
that's often not even conscious, it's kind of like but
then we kind of put it on them. It's like, well,
you're not listening because you're not looking at me, or
you're looking at your phone or something like that, So
(32:35):
why am I even talking to you?
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And you go into this whole.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Thing instead of just like saying I need I need
you to listen.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Is this a good time?
Speaker 5 (32:45):
In fact? Yes, family of origin has a huge thing
to do with that right there with you too, like
with my family it's like nobody listened to anybody, and
it was the one who yelled the loudest one, even
to the point of having a fist fight in front York.
I'll make my point one way or the other. So
let's go with it too. And if you've come out
of that and then you bring that to the space
(33:06):
with a smileuse you know, good luck, because our tendency
is going to be to do those same things, which
is pure monologue unless you go here. And for me,
that was a life changer in our relationship of being
able to learn to go to dialogue that if I'll
go to that space, I actually will be listened to
(33:26):
without having to get intense to the point of the
front yard or whatever. That was a huge step for.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Me, super healing, for you, super healing.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
It was super growing too. It was a structure to
not because my intendency was like, let me just attack
you like I always have. And it's like, okay, now
you don't have to do that. Just back up and
let's go here instead of here, you know, let's go
to dialogue instead of monologue with it.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, if you would just if you just went with this,
kept going with the cut thing, it'd be akin to
your family is always covering it up, they're moving it around,
and you're having to fight, like just to even get
you got to knock them down just to see. I
pointed in on won. Yeah I'm one, it's in there,
(34:15):
but it's not done because I didn't.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
Do that exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
And then I think that we haven't mentioned that shame.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
So we often experienced that shame for the feelings that
we had when you shouldn't feel angry, or you shouldn't
feel that way, or just get over it.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
And and then can you.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
Come in on that about you know, because you grew
up in a family we're feelings, we're not cool with
that too. How does that? How did that impact you?
That shame?
Speaker 4 (34:46):
I think I think I learned it really really early
because I was the youngest of seven, so there were
lots of emotions and there really wasn't any room for
my emotions, so I would always had to be happy.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
That's how I got my niece.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
And that was just being happy, being cheerful, being encouraging
and supp everyone around me. And yeah, my feelings always
got under a rock until you know adulthood, when you
know that rock was like not heavy enough. And I
often joke because of our career choices and things like that, Yeah,
I'm a special At teachers, we often did relief and
(35:17):
development work, so I was always searching for a bigger rock,
people with bigger problems than me, so so kind of learning.
And I think it was just like when life gets
so overwhelming that you can't hide it under a rock anymore,
and then you just like have this thing.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
But to me, I.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Believe it was this process that was so healing because
it's the empathy piece where the healing happens. It's when
someone has listened to you, someone has validated your right.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
To have these experiences, and then being with it in you.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
It's like not so much walking in my shoes because
nobody really can walk in your shoes, but you we
walk together, oh yeah, and then so it's like you
can walk together and it's not like like healing partners
that often we feel like, oh, we have to fix them.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Because you know, I just fix everybody, That's what I do.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
But it's that sense of healing partners is just journeying
through this together and I'm here with you. When Clay
could like put down his stuff and really, really okay,
I know that your emotions aren't huge and big, but
they're valid and that they're there, and.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
It's really hard for you to go there.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
And yeah, it's really hard for to go to go
there until, you know, until they're just so huge that
you have to like stomp your feet and scream and
have a tantrum.
Speaker 5 (36:41):
But instead of that, we went to dialogue. Yeah, and
that was one of the cool things that happened out
of that was she got a voice. Yeah, it was
okay for her to share what she thought and felt
about whatever with it too, and it to be able
to have that mirror back and validated and the empathized
with that was a game check for because she had
never experienced that. She didn't get to have that.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And to know that you're not alone with your feelings,
I mean, that's so profound of just if you're you're
having a feeling and you know that you don't have
to shove it down under a rock. You have a
partner who you can share that feeling with and they're
going to hear it and be with you on it.
That's I mean, that to me is Loneliness is the epidemic,
(37:26):
right and we can be lonely with being partnered, being
in a family, being in a group, but it's that
it's the empathy piece that makes us connect to our humanity.
Speaker 5 (37:37):
We were We did coaching with a lot of couples
that there they're rolass roommates, but that pretty much live
parallel lives, not only in practice in their lives, but
they do emotionally. And it's because that connection is not
there and they're not going to go there with it too.
It's it's not safe enough to do it, and so
they don't get to be those feeling partners with John.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
So if you guys ever listen, I think I brought
him up last time to Chris Voss with the book
Never Split the Difference the yeah, yes, and and he
always goes into the how he used what he called
tactical empathy. Did you ever remember remember that part?
Speaker 5 (38:22):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, I mean a lot of the stuff he would
talk about how that would be, and he would do
things like he he had things and I don't know
every one of them right atop of my head, but
he would do stuff like you would say, oh that
he'd let the you know, the hostage while he's doing
hostage negotiation. He goes it sounds like and you you know,
he would do those various things like you're talking about,
(38:44):
where he would use various stems to get these people,
to disarm them, to let them know that they're being heard,
and that's how they could get you know, these terrible
situations under control. But he called it tactical empathy, which
I thought was interesting term.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
Mmmm, that is interesting because.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
I mean going back to this is where collaboration comes from.
Even though Chris Boss doesn't have about collaboration, but he
does talk about everybody coming to a solution that feels
good to them, and for him it's the people are
alive and coming back. But somehow the negotiator or the
other side has to feel like it's good for them
too to actually do that. But I do think in
(39:29):
a in a couple sense, it's like or even in
a sense, I think this is where we really really
having empathy to.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Why is this hard for you and why is this
an issue and.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
Understanding that before you go into even solution.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
Mode.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
And we were speaking I think it was last weekend
at a retreat for high level executives, and they were
talking about, well, how is this how does this work
when you've got a problem that you have to solve
and it's like, well, you gotta gotta know what the
sides are. You gotta know what what's happening, and the
person has to feel heard and seen and valued and connected.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
And the flip of that for them was, Okay, how
about how long are you taking to do damage control
with when you guys aren't connecting and relating and being
able to solve a problem. How long is that taking
for you all weeks at a time? Right about? How
about trying dialogue for twenty or thirty minutes and see
if that makes a difference.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Just a thought, right because you know, in order to
get to problem solving, a lot of people want to
jump right into that, like you were saying, they want
the time to be short on the front end. But
if you spend all this time joining and connecting and
empathizing and really you know, again, connecting on that human
(40:43):
level and we're a team and we are doing this together,
then the problem solving that we all want to do,
how do we get to the to figure out what
to do with this problem? It happens so much more naturally,
and it's a it's a it's a long term investment
that you're making into whatever relationship it is, whether it's
a business relationship, romantic with your child, or whatever. It's
(41:07):
the joining that's incredibly important. You can't get anywhere if
you don't do that. You just can't. You have to
meet people where they are.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
But in two things we're critical to do that though.
One is making it a must. We must do this,
you know, not a word a Shotakota, It's got to
be a must. And the other thing realizing what you're
doing is resetting the culture in your in your marriage,
your family, your business, whatever you're doing with it. You're
creating a relational culture in that setting, whatever that looks like,
(41:34):
because you're you doing it a different way than you
normally would, and that when you've got that understanding with it, it
really makes a difference. And actually in the business edting,
I see it softened conversations. It's often problem solving where
you know groups or people might be more intense. But
it's true with couples too, because that's the goal here.
(41:56):
We're creating that that space, that kind of space each
other as we're doing this.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
It's a good mic drop moment right there. Yeah, Yeah,
I think we've created a case for empathy here.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Well it is.
Speaker 4 (42:16):
I think it is kind of that key to understanding
connection and collaboration, and I just want to.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
Encourage folks to to as they've listened to the whole series,
don't leave the empathy part out. You know, sometimes we
have a tendency once we've heard and we've mirrored and
we've got the information with it, too, sometimes we forget
to validate and most especially sometimes we forget to empathize
with it. And it's really important to do the whole
(42:46):
process so that your partner really feels like you're connected
at every level and understanding as much as possible at
every level, and empathy is a big part of that.
Everybody wants to be listened to, Everybody wants to be validated,
everybody wants to be empathized with. There's not a person
on the planet, I don't care what culture, and then
you don't want that. So just realizing do the whole
(43:09):
process to make sure that it's the most.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Effective for yeah, because you know, I think of the
loneliness I was bringing up, and no matter what happens
during the day, if we know that we can come
home to a partner who's going to empathize with us.
It's like you're carrying that around as a shield all
day long, no matter what happens to you. You know,
(43:34):
when I get home, I can talk to my partner
about it. Or for instance, I'm in perimenopause and so
sleep sometimes can really be struggle for me. And Jeff
had made a habit of asking me first thing in
the morning, how did you sleep? So even if I'm
up in the night or I'm struggling, I'm like, he's
going to care about that in the morning, and it
actually sues me and helps me get back to sleep
(43:56):
because I know that he cares. And I mean just
caring that around is so profound and so powerful. There
is nothing like that.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Oh I love that great job, Jeff. That Yeah, I
guess that's a challenging thing. And if it calms calm.
Speaker 6 (44:15):
Yeah, And it's knowing that now you know that and
then and that how effective that is because it's really
it's a little things.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
It's not the big, gigantic things. It's those little actions.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Yeah, that's what builds the momental I have the relationship
you want.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, Well, this has been another awesome conversation and really
appreciate y'all's time to do this. I'm glad we got
to be and get to be on your YouTube channel
as well. And so for people who are looking for us,
you can find us on make Moore, Love Not War
dot com and then Clay and Sonia. For people who
(44:53):
are looking for you, where can they find you?
Speaker 5 (44:55):
Art Life Coaching DFW, d IS and dog df W.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Okay, awesome, Well, thank you audience for being here and
listening to this.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
Thank you so much, and we've enjoyed this. We'll have
to come up with another topic to do a series on.
Speaker 5 (45:13):
I think we'll do you next time. We'll interview you
next time.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
We're down for it, all right, all right,
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