The Power of Validation in Relationships with Clay and Sonja Arnold

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's get started. Hi, and welcome to Make More Love
Not War. This is Tara Harrison, licensed professional counselor and
relationship expert.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is her husband, Jeff Harrison, of no qualifications whatsoever,
just a normal dude.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Hello and welcome to Make More Love Not War. And
we have some repeat guests. We're doing a series with them,
Clay and Sonya Arnold. So we're really excited to have
y'all today. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Great, thanks, glad to be with you.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
So for those who haven't heard the first or just
would like a little a reintroduction, please tell us who
you are and what you do.

Speaker 4 (00:53):
So we're Clay and Sonya and we are Business is
Hard Life Coaching and we work with people. We do
a lot with couples. We work with couples and we
have a course. We also do a training for Quantum Connections,
which we train people from all over the world in
how to connect. So if it works with couples, it
works with individuals, it works with governments, it works with

(01:15):
everybody in these specific techniques that we have found so
effective for us as well as seen with thousands of
people from all around the world, which is pretty exciting.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah. And also part of what we do too, we
do individual life coaching as well, and we do that
online with a global audience, and we do that at
least once a week. I do it at the office too.
That's these people face to face as well.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Oh great, okay, wonderful. Well, and just keywords for others.
There have been some name changes with Quantum Connections, so
you might also know some of these techniques as a
Mago therapy. You might also know them as safe conversations.
So all of these methods use the same techniques, and
then of course Clan Sonia have some of their own.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yep, that's right.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yeah, we use we use a lot of those safe
conversations techniques with people and everybody, but we also have
learned things ourselves that we'd like to like to bring in.
But these are foundational skills.

Speaker 5 (02:17):
Yeah. And we've been married for forty five years this year.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Congratulations, forty five years. What's your anniversary? So July July? Okay,
that'll be wonderful.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
It was that July nineteen eighty where it was one
hundred and fifteen degrees.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Oh well, it makes a rememborable wedding, doesn't it.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
In their conditioning. The church abent out two weeks so
it was pretty hot.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
When we moved down here to to spend some time.
Oh that's when we guys, we moved down here to
Texas and it was like nineteen eighty and we were like,
what is this.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Right?

Speaker 5 (03:03):
It was pretty bad.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Well, last time we talked a lot about mirroring, and
this time we're going to talk about validating, and then
our third one will be empathy. So validating is the
topic today. But for people who haven't had a chance
to listen to the mirroring, can y'all just give a
quick summary of what that is and how does that
benefit people to use it?

Speaker 4 (03:25):
Well, mirroring is basically what it says. It's like, you
can be a mirror to the person that's talking, and
you don't want to be a concave mirror, like a
funhouse mirror. You want to be a flat mirror where
what the person says you're just repeating back to them.
And it's not just parroting what they've said. It's really
taking what they've said, gathering it and letting them know

(03:49):
that you hear them, letting you know that you're really listening,
because I find that a lot of times I will
hear the first part of a sentence and then in
my mind, I'm completing the second set the second part
of the sentence because I already know what you're going
to say, right, and a lot of you know, sometimes
I'm right, but sometimes I'm not right.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
You don't.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
By making myself mirror then it does make me stick
until the end. It also makes the center to be
a little bit more concise, and it makes.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
You actively listen to which is a skill that's a
developed skill that we don't have in our culture and
in most relationships. We have to learn how to really
listen to each other. And marror's a great way to
do that because to retain the focus we keep about
as we talked about it the last thing, we are

(04:41):
able to absorb about twenty percent of what we hear,
and that's if you're in a good mood, and if
you're not, that can drop marginally, you know, So being
very active and focus on that listening and marror is
a great way to do that, and we use some
specific sentence stems to do that with just to let
the person know we're fully engaged and let me see

(05:02):
if I got that you said, and then going to
and check for accuracy when I did I get that?
Some days you know and correct and didn't have to
be part of that either is like did I get it?
Because some days I have brain fog and some days
you know, I don't. And that will vary my listening
depending on what's going on with it too, and the

(05:24):
magic sauce question of is there more about that? Because
none of us ever get asked that, And in a
relationship that's really essential to be curious and to learn
and find out, you know, is there more underneath here
that I'm missing that I that would help me understand
what's going on? And it does, And I.

Speaker 4 (05:45):
Think marrying is so beautiful because it does keep you
out of some of the.

Speaker 5 (05:50):
Triggers that listening can do.

Speaker 4 (05:52):
It keeps you out of having to be defensive, It
keeps you out of having to fix the problem, It
keeps you out of you know, having to well, I
guess that's defensive states your own point of view. But
so mirroring just allows you to really honor what the
other person is saying and really understanding and using those
three phrases really does how and then really listening to

(06:15):
the purpose person rather than oh, when's my time to talk?

Speaker 5 (06:19):
And yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Then question is not in there, is it are you
done yet?

Speaker 4 (06:27):
Person to talk and knowing that you are going to
give them your full attention.

Speaker 5 (06:31):
So that's the beauty of mirroring yes.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
And I love that question is there more about that?
Because what I see what happens a lot, and I
see this when I'm working with couples and things, is
people feel like they're asking good questions, but they're asking
leading questions. So if you can just say, is there
more about that? It takes you back into the curiosity
rather than having to make a judgment or an interpretation.

(06:54):
It just gets you out of all of that and
it's just is there more? Because if there is, then
the person can tell you you don't have to ask
them leading questions.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
In the twenty six years we've done work with couples,
we're really seeing it. What we love about this methodology
is you have to set an intention before you start it,
and that intention is okay, what's more important to you
being right or the relationship? And these senate stems keep
you in the relationship laying if you will, which is

(07:27):
so important with it because there's usually more going on
in any kind of rub or conflict or whatever might
be going on, then you realize and so getting deeper
and get to the bottom of it, you know, with curiosity,
and it really helps you make that relationship the priority
then instead of my agenda and my ego, let me

(07:49):
be my chest to be right here.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
And it does keep you from having the same argument
over and over again because a lot of times you
don't really address it because we don't have time and
all of these things. But slowing down and really going
deeper and deeper into the more kind of will help
you to get to the root of an issue rather
than oh, let the next time something happens and it
comes up again. So but your point about being right

(08:16):
kind of is a good segue into the validation that
we're going to talk about today.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yes, I love it. Thank you for leading us in there, Sonia.
That's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
So yeah, the next step, So you've mirrored you think
you understand as well as you can what the other
person's saying. So what do you do next validate? What's that?

Speaker 3 (08:37):
Well, validation is again, it's kind of like we've mirroreating
it's setting an intention. We all have a movie and
a perspective depending on what our past is, what experiences
we've had, what we bring to the space between us,
and it's acknowledging. I like to describe it as acknowledging

(08:57):
that other person's worldview with whatever's going on in the
scenario where we go to the right place when it
comes to validating is and usually we use the phrase,
we use the sentence stem again with that if like,
well that makes sense. We always get pushed back when
we do workshops with couples of life, Well what if

(09:18):
it doesn't freaking make any sense right now? You know
it does to them, and I'm validating that that makes
sense to her. It may be the dopiest thing I've
ever heard in my life from my perspective of it,
But on her end it makes total sense. Why because
she has a different set of experiences and a different

(09:39):
worldview about it, or you know, she's had her own
trauma that maybe triggering something that makes total sense to
her when me it doesn't. But I want to understand
what that is, and that's the point. I want to
validate her experience but also go to deeper understanding with
why you know she has that world view, and.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
That's why you have to mirror first, because you really
have to hear what the person is saying and where
they're going before you just kind of can say a
phrase because it can kind of sound like it's condescending
and that type of thing, but it really is. It's
the most demanding step here because most of us are
ingrained with this belief that the world is the way

(10:24):
that I see it, and we can't imagine or accept
that another point of view.

Speaker 5 (10:31):
Is as valid as our own. And it's really kind.

Speaker 4 (10:35):
Of connects with this fear of the loss of self.
If I agree with you and it stands against my truth,
then perhaps I don't exist or I'm not valid. Now
that is a big truth to accept.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, that's existential right there.

Speaker 5 (10:55):
It's like what that is? Like crazy?

Speaker 4 (10:57):
But we have been noticing this kind of like okay, yeah,
after forty five years, after ten years of using this technique,
we are just really getting more and more into why
this is such a trigger to have somebody living in
my house who feels totally different about everything. And so again,

(11:19):
validation is not agreement and the goal is to help
you and the other person discovers what distinguishes you and them,
why the differences is important, why the differences can be wonderful,
And it's that.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Honoring of them as a human being and being different
in their difference, whatever that difference is too, even if
it's completely the opposite end of what I've experienced or
what I'm seeing with it too, I want to honor that,
and I want her to feel heard and that what
she feels about whatever the topic is makes total sense

(11:59):
to her.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
And so, and if the listener really is unable to
see the speaker's perspective, you have to stay with the process,
continue getting more information about the what and the why,
and so a lot of times you need to start
with things like you know, appreciations and then really getting

(12:21):
into going deeper with the more listening, mirroring, validating, well
that makes sense that this is why you appreciate this
so much, and that strengthens your muscles so that you
can kind of accept some negative messages. So our our
big thing that we've been dealing with is this.

Speaker 5 (12:42):
Control. I've been feeling controlled, and.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
So I had a big bi play like I feel
I feel control again.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
You have to, like you'll never's.

Speaker 4 (12:56):
Not communicating the fact that you're controlling.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
I'm Morris code blinking.

Speaker 4 (13:04):
What I don't do that, but going to the fact that, Okay,
the truth is that I feel controlled.

Speaker 5 (13:12):
I can't say you're.

Speaker 4 (13:13):
Controlling me because he doesn't. He doesn't get that that
would not be that. But I feel control. So yeah,
when this happens, I feel controlled. And then would you
be willing to and maybe some behavior.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
We had a great example of that last night.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Let me let me yeah, let's hear the story.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
So you lost her earphones, which is a pretty regular thing, you.

Speaker 5 (13:39):
Know, five times to day.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
I lose my head on what's with it too? And
she just mentioned that she had lost them and she
was looking for them. Well, on my end of things,
with my history and my family of origin with it too,
I was I had to be the emotional parent and
the responsible one for every thing for survival, so I

(14:02):
naturally just started looking for the headphones with her and
but for her, she felt like I was controlling, being
controlling doing that. Now, some people are like it, that's crazy.

Speaker 5 (14:15):
I know it crazy.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
But because I didn't do that, I didn't ask would
you all like me to help you, or you know,
any kind of caveat to doing that. She felt that way.

Speaker 4 (14:27):
Well, And actually when I said I was looking for
my headphones, when I was actually I had found them.
So I said, I said, oh, yeah, they're behind the couch.
I'm glad we had this little pocket behind the couch
because it always collects my headphones.

Speaker 5 (14:42):
And then and then he started looking for them.

Speaker 4 (14:46):
And then I don't know what, something came up and
he said something and I was like, wait, no, I
found them their right hand and so then he kind
of was like, well, I was looking for them, and
I'm like, well, I didn't ask you to look for them.
And so, but understanding that each of us in that
simple situation what were triggered, Clay was triggered in they're like,

(15:10):
oh my gosh, I just bought your new headphones for
Christmas and you're gonna have to buy new ones. And
then I'm like, I lose them five times day, I'm
going to find them. And so but but that whole
thing of I can interpret that as control, which is
like you're just you're just trying to control me because

(15:31):
you don't trust me and you don't believe that I
can do anything right.

Speaker 5 (15:34):
I mean, this is the youngest of seven who says this.

Speaker 4 (15:37):
And so then I'm kind of like, just let me
find my headphones, and Clay's go into the worst case
survival scenario that we're gonna die because you've lost your
headphones and we have spent another one hundred bucks on them.

Speaker 5 (15:50):
So that is but that was what.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Happened, and what we did was you then we've kind
of stopped and said, okay, time out, and we have
talked about then, okay, we married each other about what
was going on, and you know, she was able to express,
you know, I didn't ask you to help. I didn't
do those things with it, and from her worldview and

(16:14):
that perspective, that makes sense to her. Now this is
one of these scenarios. For me is like what, no,
you know, you know, why would I Why wouldn't I
help you look for your earphone with it too? But
for her it makes total sense and it was a
big thing emotionally, even though it was a little scenario

(16:38):
and I did that with her. I said, well, that
makes sense that you'd feel that way. You know. Some
of that's about things we've shared and interacted with before.
Some of that I know some of that because I
know her family and what they're like. It was like, okay,
well that makes sense. You feel control. But I was
able to go to that space. But I have a
very different opinion. And I also understand that I'm always

(17:02):
being responsible because that was my role and that's what
I brought to the relationship into the space, and so
you know, okay, maybe I can do that a different way.
You know, it makes me kind of grow. I want
to her to not feel that or experience that in
our interactions with that. So we've talked about okay, would
you you know, I asked her what can I do different?

(17:23):
Would you be willing to just ask? Is it a
good time for me to help you? Just a little
question with it too? And if it's not been great,
I'll go watch the football game. I don't care, you know,
with it, I just want to be helpful. That's my
intent with it too. But I also am driven by
my past need to be the responsible one, and that

(17:46):
won't enter into the space if I don't, if I
don't pay attention to that and.

Speaker 5 (17:49):
Get awar well yeah, but the validation piece. Going back
to the validation piece is so key because.

Speaker 4 (17:58):
It kind of reverse those negative messages that we tell
ourselves about those past experiences. So when I can say
I felt controlled when you did this, and Play can
mirror that, and then well, that makes sense that you
would feel controlled in this situation, because we all kind
of had this in our past that we were wrong,

(18:20):
it was wrong to feel controlled in these situations and
those type of things, or to want what we wanted,
or wrong to think what we thought. So in the
present time to have that validated, for Klay to say,
well that made sense, Oh, Cry, that makes sense that
it that you would feel this way and that this
would would cause that is so healing to me.

Speaker 5 (18:45):
And kind of like, oh, it gets underneath it all.

Speaker 4 (18:49):
And then but it's also a gift for the person
who provides the validating so that Play or the validator
is free to express curiosity about a world that he
doesn't experience, that he doesn't get and he never maybe known,
and to relinquish this belief that he is hell.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
Validation, moving from judgment. Curiosity is such a key in
all of this stuff, and validation, even when I don't
agree or doesn't make sense to me, is such an
integral part of that curiosity, So I can learn what's
the rest of the story. Here's what's underneath the fact
you have that world before that opinion about whatever with

(19:32):
it and getting into the habit. Because what we've learned
and doing this methodology for all these years is there's
always something underneath it. There's always something. Can we get
to that and find out that you know what that is? Yeah,

(19:54):
and that's such a big deal.

Speaker 4 (19:55):
And then going back to switching it whenever you have that,
you really do need to go the other side. So
then Clay needs to share his side about looking for
the headphones, and and then get well it makes sense.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
I mean, it does make sense.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
Relief and that you just felt such responsibility and things
like that, so then I can just validate that. And
then I mean that kind of cuts through all the
arguments that really aren't about the headphones, you know, all
these arguments that we have that really aren't about anything.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Right, you know, because especially if you get and this
is where I think a lot of people get stuck,
and I certainly have before too, is it wasn't your
intent to make her feel controlled, right, And that is
where people are like, well, if you just knew that
that's not what I intended, then that can that can
circumvent all these problems, and it actually just digs it

(20:52):
deeper because then you're not hearing you.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
I was just kidding. That's another private one, And it.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Was like, can't you take a joke. I'm just making
a joke, but you know that actually hurts somebody, So
we need to lean into figuring that out.

Speaker 4 (21:08):
But yeah, understanding how your behaviors are contributing to this.
But again it goes back to that our early programming
that can't admit that, because then if we admit that,
and we admit that we're wrong or admit that this
is like, then that really interferes with our.

Speaker 5 (21:26):
Sense of self and our sense of reality.

Speaker 4 (21:28):
So it's really hard to have two people in a
relationship and you have such a different sense of reality.
And we think that the solution is to make you think,
like I think I'm going to debate.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
You and make you understand my side.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, right right, because if you just did, and if
we just were the same, then.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
So what's your problem?

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, you wouldn't be hurt. Yeah, And I think it's
also to your point too, Sonya. It's it's the idea
of holding space and being tolerant of other people's feelings
because on the other side, we are often feel responsible
for other people's feelings. So I'm uncomfortable that Jeff is

(22:08):
feeling or like Clay, you could have get scotten stuck
in your discomfort with how Sonya was feeling and not
been able to validate because it's like, I don't want
you to feel that way anymore, so I need to
change your feeling. So I'm going to do all my
techniques of changing your feeling, which make a joke to
light and the mood could be one. It could be
I'm just going to solve it for you. It could

(22:29):
be I'm going to argue with you the point versus
getting to the real healing and validating, which means that
you have to regulate yourself and allow Sonya to feel
hurt even though it wasn't what you intended.

Speaker 3 (22:42):
Yeah, that really is a good Yeah, that's great. What
a y'all experience with this? I'm just curious.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Well, I have a pretty recent story too, really a
good one. So I have been expressing to Jeff things
that helped me feel loved and connected to him, and
one of the things that really makes me feel connected,
and I think this is the case for a lot
of people. Is him asking questions about me and just

(23:09):
showing that curiosity, questions like how'd you sleep, how's your day?
You know, basic questions, doesn't have to be anything intense.
And then from his standpoint, he was really stuck in, well,
I want to know your day, so just tell me.
And it took a while or for me to be
able to explain to him, I know that you do

(23:30):
want that, but what the behavior that makes me feel
loved is for you to ask me the questions that
just really makes me feel loved. So we had several
conversations about it, and then I remember We're sitting on
the couch one night and I was just like, look,
this is just what I need to feel loved. And
then he was like okay, because I was like, I've

(23:51):
been asking for it, he hadn't been doing it. And
then it was like when he got it, when he
was able to validate that he's been doing it every
day and I've been feeling very low been connected with that.
But what was your thought process for that of what
were maybe you were stuck.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
With it or I mean I was like, if you
want to tell me how your day went, why don't
you just tell me what's what's the hold up here?
I mean, like, I'm not stopping you from doing And
she'd be like, well, you told me all this stuff
that you did and what was going on, and you
just took all the time. I'm like, well, you didn't
say anything. You could have. I thought we were having

(24:29):
the conversation of how our day went. I told you mine,
come on, tell me yours, but you didn't say anything.
So now, why why aren't you talking? So I guess
you don't want to talk about your day?

Speaker 5 (24:45):
And yeah, she was needing that permission to be asked.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
Mm hmmm. I just yes, because and it's you know,
we all we do the things that that make us
feel loved, right, So I'm always asking him questions and
I also want that from him, right, I'm always how's
your day? And then he tells me and then the
conversation's over. So I just really needed that just to

(25:11):
feel like he has curiosity about me. And I know
that he does, but I needed for him to show
me with that behavior.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
How did you initially react to that though, of her
wanting you to ask the questions?

Speaker 2 (25:25):
I mean, it feels like it's not necessary because we
were we're finally together, we're talking about our day. You
can just kick in. You know, it seems weird to
tell somebody to go, Okay, I'm finished with what I
just said about the whole day. Wow, it's your turn.
I mean, like, how was your day? I mean, like

(25:47):
we were already talking about this, So just keep the
ball rolling here. You don't through conversations keep on going
back and forth, like like I wouldn't go, you know,
to say, you're talking about football with your you know, hey,
I thought, you know, what do you think of the
football game? It was great. It was blah blah blah,
and then they say it and then you would go, yeah,
I know what you're talking about. I saw that too.

(26:08):
That was pretty cool. You wouldn't have to go sit
there and go and now I'm waiting for him to
ask me what I thought of it. You wouldn't do that,
and then if you just don't say anything, he's like,
I guess he had nothing to talk about.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
But but key here too, is she felt safe enough
to ask you for what she needed that and we
don't do that a lot. That's in the couple's space,
you know, a lot of times unless we're really intentionally
working on stuff with it too, you know, asking for
what you want instead of what you don't want. Oh,
that's such you know. But the reaction is that, why, wow,

(26:44):
you have a completely different perspective of how you see it,
even though to her asking her request of you, you know,
ask her, you know, asking her questions seems totally logical
and you know, heartfelt and what she needs to be loved,
and you're like, okay, well I can do that.

Speaker 5 (27:02):
So how did you find the get me? How did
you findly get it?

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Well, she just asked, Oh, she just her. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
I felt like I had said it many times though,
so maybe maybe I just finally asked in the way
that he heard. I'm not I'm not really sure how
how we got there, because it was many conversations, you know,
and sometimes it's like that right where it's you feel
like you're you're kind of you're chipping away at something
with it.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
It's because most of the time you were asking from
the standpoint of going you just talk about your day
all the time, and then you don't blah blah blah.
I'm like I didn't want, well, go ahead and tell me,
I mean, like, that's okay, oh so so that just
told me. I was like, well, I guess maybe I
shouldn't say as much. I'll just say less and I'll

(27:51):
just wait for her to go. You know, maybe she
feels like I'm just steamrolling or like, you know, not
giving any space to talk, so I don't and then
she doesn't say anything, and I'm like, what are you
talking about? I stopped talking and you didn't do anything,
So what more do you want?

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Like? Okay. So that's where the dialogue can really serve you,
because when we get into that space, we get stuck
the emotional part of our brain and we start presuming about, Okay,
what is their intent, what are they doing, what are
they not doing, et cetera. Using the mirroring senate stems,
for example, is going to move you. It's going to
integrate your brain. It's going to move you out of

(28:27):
that place. The emotional part of your brain is going
to get you up here in the frontal cortex because
they're designed to do that. But it's the questions that
do that. Did I get that? Is there more about that?
You have to come up here and say, well, is
there more about it? Or not? Did you get it
or not? And that helps that process of integration where
it doesn't get all charged up emotionally, just by utilizing

(28:50):
the senate stems because it makes it calm down. And
for me, if I don't calm it down, I don't
hear well.

Speaker 4 (28:57):
And it helps me hear what you're doing that's wrong, right,
you want to hear. It's very helpful to go into well,
this is what I'm wanting, I'm meeting.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
It's about understanding, yeah, you know, and curiosity with it too.
It's not that necessarily what I mean. I probably will
change my COMPI because I want to give that to you.
But but utilizing the mythology and use the sentence stems,
you know, we're able to kind of get past the
polarization we start going to when it gets all charged up.

(29:30):
And because that's where couples have problems, that's where the
fighting takes play. Once we're in those polls. Good luck,
Oh right, I know.

Speaker 6 (29:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
My my daughter's therapist called it flipping flipping the lid.
You flip your lid where you just can't, like you
can't access that frontal lobe. And again that's probably what
was happening to me. I thought we were having like
two or three conversations to get there. But what happened
is probably the first two conversations I started it with
a complaint rather than starting it with the action. And

(30:01):
the third time I just told him the action. There
was no complaint, so he was able to hear me
because it was a complaint, and then action before probably
went into the mid brain whenever I made the complaint,
not able to hear the action, So that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, I think you would also think, Jeff, And then
you would also whenever I would be saying, like saying,
what was going on today, you'd be just like knocking
it down, knocking it down. I'm doing this, Oh, knock
that down, this idea of where we're going to knock
that down, And I'm like, well, why even why even
bring anything up?

Speaker 3 (30:39):
Yeah, And there's that what we talked about in the
first session we had with you, that that nurturing the
space between you. You know, when that kind of stuff
starts and that negativity for whatever reason, starts happening in
that and it goes into the space, it's toxic.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
So we have to do stuff to get that out.

Speaker 5 (30:58):
One is dialogue with it.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
To another one that's putting in and making sure we've
been putting in appreciations or in this case, it's a
caring behavior. You know, you told him straight up, you
know this makes me feel love and careful.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Right.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
Well, lot, it's a different way of looking at it
than the other because if we start, you know, and
I'm really bad about this, if we start with negativity
to begin with with it, then she's going to have
to go to the fence mode and that's not safe
anymore to have the interaction with it. So and that's
a huge part of making sure that you're able to
look at her to be a look connected with her.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
So, but yay, you guys figured it out. We out there.
It's large. It really is a challenge.

Speaker 4 (31:41):
You would think that it would get easier, that at
some point it would be, but things keep coming up.
You keep in this learning mode, learning about each other,
learning about yourself, and we change, you know, we're different
people than we were when we were young.

Speaker 5 (31:53):
And then you have children.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
And then you know, dynamics change, and then you hit
menopause and then things change.

Speaker 5 (32:00):
You know, life is different. So you have to keep listening,
keep checking in.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
And keep being curious. Or probably the two biggies here
with using all these tools, is that my intent? Because
I'm going to grow as a human being. I'm not
like it was ten years ago when R she We're
working on our own stuff and our own growth and
working on stuff together, so we're not where we were
even yesterday. So utilizing that to make sure we've got

(32:30):
that connection going on and where we can be curious
and find out, Okay, where are you now? What's what's
that look like? That's that's a big part of it
because it sets the tone for everything else.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yes, And I think that it's also really important in
thinking of how to validate when someone's bringing something up
that's completely different from your worldview. For instance, and example
of Jeff and I, we have very different views on
how conversations can go, and so they're both valid views.
And when we're having conversation, I pay attention to knowing

(33:07):
how he thinks they should flow, and he can pay anyway.
So we've learned that over time with the conversations and
talking about how he expects them to go, how I
expect them to go, and being able to accept influence.
But what the brain just wants to do is be like, well,
that's wrong. You know immediately that's wrong. So having that
level of detachment from your own ego like we've been

(33:29):
talking about and getting to that point of curiosity. Do
y'all have any brain hacks for that that you use
when you're in that moment?

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Right?

Speaker 1 (33:37):
So your brain's trying to creep into the mid you know,
the mid brain here where you're not and how do
you bring yourself back to curiosity from you know, all
that chatter and the brain.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
A lot of it has to do with how we
start a conversation, and we're very orthodoxical orthodology. One is
get making some eye contact to give the brain the
opportunity to say, is it okay it's safe to talk
to you, because you're instantly going to know that in
a nanosecond when you're when you have eye contact. And secondly,

(34:13):
taking a couple of deep breasts, oh, just because it
relaxes your vagueal nerve coming out of the back of
your head and that best of nerves and wraps around
your chest. I don't know if you've ever felt that
anxiety thing and felt your chest going that's that going off.
So we are starting it with making sure it's safe,

(34:34):
relaxing a little bit and it just takes a couple
of seconds. This isn't you don't do this for five minutes,
but then asking okay, is it a good time to
talk about and fill in the blank? Always fill in
the blank, and kind.

Speaker 4 (34:51):
Of we've been challenged to do that more often, to
make that a normal thing. Normally we feel like, oh,
it's when we just need to have a serious conversation
that we have to make an appointment. But I think
just trying to make that just a normal thing because
of everything, we all have this movie running in our
head all the time where we're thinking.

Speaker 5 (35:11):
About what we're doing.

Speaker 4 (35:12):
We're thinking about this email that we're writing, and then
our partner comes in and starts talking and you're like
what and number one is you you're clocking until there
are three sentence in, and then the other thing is like,
I am trying to finish this email. So then it's
that frustration that kind of builds even if you wanted it,

(35:34):
because you're just doing your own thing, whereas if just
building that habit of Oh, I just came in from
the mailbox and I have a question about this bill.
Is this a good time? Can we talk about this?
And then you're like, I can talk to you after
I do this email. I mean, and because we both
work from home, we're always with each other, so there's

(35:55):
always that tension of interruption. There's always that tension of
you know, conversation time and things happening. So I think
that is a pretty big brain hack, is to build
that habit and doing it.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
With simple stuff too. I'm getting to her, I will
ask you, is it a good time to talk about
the grocery list mm that I'm about to go thore
and do well. I want to make sure I got
everything with it too, But I also want to give
her the opportunity to be fully present in response and
asking sort of that appointment and asking is it a
good time or not? It gives her the ability to

(36:32):
do that or hey give me ten minutes, or hey
let me go the restroom, I just got off the freeway,
or whatever's going on in the scenario with it, it's
just that honoring and respecting. And I know a lot
of couples that we work with they have told us
that this one step of the six parts of the
same conversation's process has been transforming in their relationship because

(36:55):
it's created safety, they know what they're going to talk about,
their honoring of each other's time. By doing it, all
kinds of proactive stuff happens just by making me points,
let alone the other stuff that you're us.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
It also allows you to kind of before you bring
up a topic, ask yourself, is.

Speaker 5 (37:13):
This a good time for me to talk about it?

Speaker 3 (37:17):
Speak?

Speaker 4 (37:18):
And I mean, especially if it's something that you're heightened
about before you like speak and lay in, then you
kind of like, oh am.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
I angry, AM hungry? Whatever's going on?

Speaker 5 (37:28):
Speak, time for me to speak about this.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
And so that that I think that is a big
one as well as just that intentionality and the breathing,
the breathing together. Also sometimes starting with a hug. I know,
I the hug is a part of the process at
the end. It does help you to regulate.

Speaker 5 (37:50):
Or things like that.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
Sometimes you just don't want to I just don't want to.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
Give a hug, don't touch me.

Speaker 4 (37:59):
But sometimes that to start with that helps us to
kind of like even if it's just maybe you don't
even feel.

Speaker 5 (38:06):
Like doing a hug, but just kind of like holding some.

Speaker 4 (38:11):
Contact and like, Okay, I really want to talk about
this situation and some type of physical connection.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
The hug's really good too, And you know it, just
like with the end process, if you do it for
a good sixty seconds or so, you're going to release
oxytocin in your brain. So before you even start the conversation,
you've already got bonding chemicals firing off in your brain
just by giving each other bolly. I talk about change
the you know, the the energy of the conversation. That's

(38:43):
a huge thing. So we do that quite regularly, and
most especially when it's something that's emotionally charged or something
that's where it's about differences, making sure we do that
so we can be connecting with each other and be curious.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Yeah. I love that. That makes a lot of sense.
That is a really important step. I completely agree with
that because, like you said, I love the example you
use that we're always in our own movie in our head.
We are I get in a flow state, you know,
like I feel like, okay, I'm flowing, I'm doing this,
and then if there's an interruption, it takes me a

(39:24):
while to wrap my brain around what the interruption is,
what is it calling for? Can I provide it? Like
all of those things that the brain needs to do
to be able to pay attention is can be really
taxing and it can be distressing. So giving people that
space to be able to do that helps a lot.
And then also the point that you've both made too

(39:47):
about this about the sense of self, you know, so
when you're getting into the validating part, being able to
being able to feel s with something so different from
your sense of self. So if you've already started with
the hug or also an appreciation and those kinds of

(40:10):
things making the appointment, then you're in a safer space
together where you could feel more comfortable and you don't
have to hold on to that ego to protect you.
You could just be like, Okay, this is very different
for me, Like the way that Jeff has a conversation
is very different for me. But it doesn't mean that
Jeff is bad and I need to convert him to

(40:31):
you know, my way, yes, Like, oh my gosh, he's
so terrible that he doesn't ask questions. He must not
care about me at all. You know, That's where I
could go if I'm stuck in the mid brain or
really stuck with my own way of having conversations is
the way to have them? Or he could get stuck
in well, you just need to talk and you know,

(40:53):
like something's wrong with you for you needing to be asked,
you know, So like just being able to get out
of that stuck place of my way is the only
way to be because if if it's not, then who
am I?

Speaker 3 (41:09):
And I don't know about your past, but I will
tell you just from from experience that in my own
life as well as people we've worked with has been.
That's one of those spaces where whatever you've experienced before,
you're in your you're in your relationship with Jeff. How
people did people listen to you? Did they think your
opinion about whatever was a valid et cetera. And being

(41:30):
aware of that too, because that tanked your interpretation of
what Jeff is doing or not doing with it too,
because that comes into the space with you whether you
whether you realize it or not.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, do I feel that I in the past, have
I felt important to other people? Have? Has my have
my needs been important? Have has my world been important
to them?

Speaker 3 (41:52):
And if you grew up with caretakers like I did,
where none of that went on with it too, Okay,
I'm probably gonna have an edge with you then because
I don't have any you know, I'm expecting the worst
in the scenario because that's what I experienced way back here,
just kind of getting in there, We're going, Okay, let's
give her benefit of the doubt here that that's not
her intent. Yeah, but find out.

Speaker 4 (42:14):
Yeah, And I think I think what Rich's kind of
saying is the benefit of the doubt giving a lot
of grace in that, you know, we're all trying our best,
we are and not assuming the worst. That's what we do,
especially when we've had our wounds in our past and
we've had our rooms in our relationship that just keep
going on and on, and then we have these expectations

(42:36):
of the worst, and then in our like you said,
you go into that lower brain that just you know,
just interprets it as well, you're just being mean.

Speaker 5 (42:45):
You just don't care. You just are doing this whole thing.

Speaker 4 (42:48):
And and you know, you know that type of lower
brain activity that doesn't work, doesn't help. But if we
can stay in our thinking brain, our adult brain, where
we're just kind of like not going you know, to
those making things up, where that's what we are actually doing,

(43:08):
is we are we are creating the story of what
you thought what you're doing and where that was not
the intention at all, but really having good faith and
having the benefit of the doubt that knowing that you
love me, which I think that's where the nurturing comes in.

Speaker 5 (43:24):
If there's been lots of good.

Speaker 4 (43:26):
Positive things, then you're more likely to be able to
go to But then when there's been lots of criticism,
then yeah, you're going.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
To go there. You said such a key phrase well
ago about safety, but I didn't want it to pass
here with it too. If it's not safe or we're
not feeling safe in the interaction, we're not going to connect.
I'm not going to connect with you, and I'm they're
sure not going to communicate with you because of that.

(43:52):
That's got to be the you know, there's a process there.
It's so important, and that's why doing things a lot
we've mentioned the hug for example, or the eye contact
or whatever. If I can nurture the space between us
enough even in the conversation to where I'm feeling safe
and she's feeling safe, I love her care for If
she's got to share something with me, she knows probably

(44:13):
gonna poke the bear when she does. She knows I'm
gonna mirror it bag number one, So I'm gonna regulate myself.
But also we have that ability to create as much
safety as possible so I can connect with her. My
heart desire is to connect with her at every level
I can possibly do with it too. But if I

(44:33):
don't feel safe, I'm not going to you know, And again,
I grew up with people where nothing was safe, absolutely nothing,
So I have to really watch myself and be aware
that I bring that to the space and doing that
kind of activity to bridge that. That actually helps me
and it heals me because the more I experience safety

(44:56):
with her, the more I'm able to be safe with
myself as well as going to be absolutely Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
I love that example and just having the knowledge of
yourself to understand what you're bringing to the table. What
are what are the where, what is your pat your
go to defense mechanism pattern and you know, and for
me with with Jeff, with the with the conversations, it's well,

(45:26):
everything is always about everybody else. Like that's my black
and white you know child self saying whatever I have
to say is not important. It's always about them. I
need to regulate somebody else. I need to be the listener,
I need to be the caretaker to to what you're saying, Clay,
of other people's emotions. And so to your point, Jeff,

(45:48):
as you're telling as he's telling me about his day,
because I did want to know, I'm anticipating that he's
not going to ask me any questions and nobody's going
to care about me, and so I'm coming from that
triggered feeling like okay, and so then I'm just being
negative towards him, and then of course he's not going
to want to ask me questions. So I just created
my own, my own feared scenario.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
Yeah, that's what we did.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yep, yep. And so a lot of it is me
being able to tell myself I am worthy of care,
and Jeff thinks I'm worthy of care too. He just
doesn't know the action process because listening to what you
were saying, as you were trying to figure out what
the action was, but you didn't know it.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Take all that little gymnastics out of the picture here though,
by doing exactly what you did of teaching the other person, Okay,
this is what I need. You know, we're so good
at telling everybody each other what we don't want or
what we don't need, that we don't go to. This
is how you can do that. I love that she

(46:55):
can just tell me, just like we did with the
earphones last night, never move to helping her again, probably
listen just to have a knee jerk reaction without saying
would you like some help?

Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah? Which is great for you because it relieves you
of that burden of feeling you have to help people
all the time, which.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
Is good for me too. I didn't naturally just start
doing that. Yeah, so that's a good It's a way
for her to teach me what she's needing, so I
could meet her and set up my presuming what her
need is, because that's where it all falls apart.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Yeah, and just.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Didn't change your office. I'll be glad to do that.

Speaker 5 (47:37):
For And I think kind of goes the same way
as you should.

Speaker 4 (47:41):
If you need my help, you should ask for it too,
because a lot of times I'm oblivious, you might.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
Question, Okay, you look for it.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Exactly. You could be lurking for like hours and he's
just sitting around. You're like, why aren't you helping every
look and he's like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 3 (48:04):
It's right on there.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Isn't it interesting how the pairings and and this kind
of goes back to the the imago. A piece of
things is how how we are gravitate towards because I'm
I'm more like you, Clay, and that I'm more of
the caretaker. I'm anticipating people's needs, which is a which
is a lot of emotional energy for me, and I

(48:30):
don't need to be doing it so much, and he's
not doing it. So I've I've gotten really good at
asking for help, which is very healing for me to
be able to state my needs and have them met,
and I have to because he's not. He's not looking
for clues like I am of what does somebody need?
How can I help you? That's just not how he is.

(48:51):
But when he's but when I give him a mission,
he wants to complete it because he loves me. But
if I don't ask him, he doesn't know. So again
it's that this is healing me of me thinking I
need to anticipate him all the time.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
Overwriting lesson with all of that is no matter what
you think, you're not a good mind reader. Nobody don't
tell me. They don't know, so why are you expecting them?
To know. I mean that that's eighty percent of fights. Yeah,
we have is we walk in that presumption place and

(49:26):
we never say what we need or what's going on,
or it'll give the other person a clue of what
they could do to make it be different.

Speaker 5 (49:35):
We don't know, We don't know ourselves what we need.
So it's hard.

Speaker 4 (49:40):
You know, like you should know what I need if
you let me, you would, you would know what I
need and you just give it to me. But I
don't know what that is.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
I don't know you know what I need what you need? Right?

Speaker 1 (49:52):
And so it saves us a lot of time making
interpretations in brain space, of making interpretations of others, and
we can refocus on what is it, how do I feel,
and what do I need? Because I need to be
able to express that to my partner versus trying to
figure out why they're doing something that they're doing and
writing a story about it.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
That's where validation ties right into all this with it too,
when I can validate her experience, her feelings, you know,
her perspectives. With that, at least I have more information
on which I can look at it with curiosity and say, okay,
maybe here you know and sometimes she'll share something and

(50:33):
I will ask and it's a good time to ask
you some questions about this. Yeah, okay, if I were
to do it this way, would that meet the need?
Or what you what you're wanting here? I will actually
ask her those questions with it too. Now I'm the
one like you that you know what I want? Everybody
ask me what do I need? With it too? But

(50:54):
it helps her kind of get out of the out
of that space where she doesn't you know, where she
could need it. And sometimes the answer is I don't know.
Let me think about it because she doesn't know what
she means.

Speaker 4 (51:07):
Or maybe we could try or we could try that
and see if it works because you don't know, and
then you can rebut evaluate it later.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
So is that working it up? Okay, let's try this. Okay,
that don't work? So, but that validation. There's so much
gained by validation of not only affirming her, but for me,
I get so much input of to know how to
view what's going on with her in the perspective and
maybe even some clues or you know, or are prompt

(51:38):
to ask the question, you know, would this meet your need?
So it totally changes that picture. M.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
Yeah, that sense.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Does.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
Yes, I think we've given a good a good explanation
of validation. So go back. Let's go back to the
Senate stems really quick. I just used one right with validation.
That makes sense? You make sense any other? Just quick
little before we end a little quick little advice to.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
The habit these doing things like this is a skill.
You have to develop it and you have to use it.
It's a lot learning to play basketball. You don't naturally
know how to dribble and taking a shot without doing
drills over and over and over and over again. Relationships
are skills we can learn, don't. A lot of us
don't get taught those skills like me, and so we

(52:41):
have the opportunity to learn and and so a lot
using the Senate stems is just learning them practicing them.
I mean I practiced the mirroring part of what we
started with today. I do that the checkout clark at Walmart.
You know, if I see she's having a bad day,
it may be a thirty second conversation. But I use
the stem and I just sit and it makes me listen.

(53:03):
So if I'm doing that in little places and practicing
the skill, when I get with her and do it
with it too. My skills are going to be much
sharper with that. So all of this, and you know
who doesn't like to be mirrored and listen to and
validated for what they think? Nobody?

Speaker 4 (53:25):
And yeah, and I think the validation step is so crucial,
even though so and it's so hard, but just using
validation in everyday life, even when it's not a triggering
polarization thing. Oh yeah, it makes sense that you would
like key lime pie. You know, I don't maybe don't
want key lime pie, but it makes sense that Clay

(53:47):
likes key line pie, and and so I can I
can do that or like, oh yeah, you like pumpkin
bread and a loaf rather than pumpkin muffin.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Like a man does not like. Yes, I love that,
I mean very I love the idea of practicing often
and you don't need to wait for conflict or anything
like that. Just practice with everybody, and as long as
you're trying, people will like it.

Speaker 5 (54:19):
And yeah, if you're.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
Both doing that, you know you're both doing that together
in your relationship. Everybody knows what you're doing, so it
encourages each other to use the skills when you're doing
it back and forth, even in the little things, which
I love that because you know, I'm thinking of it
and I get distracted, and I mean reminders.

Speaker 5 (54:41):
And I think.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
Not only in your relationship, but when you think about
the world as we have today, in the polarization, that
we were to be able to set you your own
point of view, accept your point of view.

Speaker 6 (54:58):
I always had the belief that I had to either
suck it up and be you know, just accept somebody
else's point of view, or I had to argue with them.

Speaker 5 (55:08):
Those are my two choices.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
And it was so freeing to realize that the truth
is is that I can hold my truth. I can
hold what I believe, what I want, what I need,
what I where I am, and I also can have
room for you to experience something different, for.

Speaker 5 (55:26):
You to have a different point of view.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
And if we could all do this in our world,
in our culture, it would make a difference in our homes,
it would make a difference in our country, everything.

Speaker 3 (55:36):
And I can validate you with whatever your point of
view is, but i'd also don't it's referring for me.
I don't have to convince you to, you know, take
my view. Yeah, I can just validate how you say
about it. Okay, well that's cool, but I don't you know,
I do this or I think this. But I don't
have to convince you. I don't have to debate. You

(55:56):
will talk you into my point too. That's all rely
for me is.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
But it does make sense that you have to. The
person has to feel heard first, because it won't. They
won't feel real if you just say, okay, let's just
agree to disagree. You have to really hear their point
of view and allow them to have and to hold
that and maybe they'll change it. And then you could
also say, what would you like to hear my point

(56:23):
of view? Sometimes they'll say yes, sometimes they'll say no.

Speaker 3 (56:26):
Sometimes they'll ask, yeah, you know, okay, thanks for letting
me share my what do you think about that? It
starts this reciprocal thing that was so missing, not only
what we do with each other home, but than our
society as all. I mean, that's a transforming thing. If
we can get to that where that's going on, then

(56:48):
at least everybody feels heard. They may not agree with it,
or would that be different.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Yeah, even if you are in the not say your relationship,
but you are trying to pursue weighed somebody with something,
you still are better off to mirror what they said
so that they know that, oh you did hear what
I'm saying, And now I don't have to come up
with a way to come back at you like you
were your point. Now you can say, well, I got

(57:16):
what you said that that doesn't make sense. I see
what you're saying, but did you think about this? And
then they can go, oh okay now. I So from
just even a persuasion point of view, if you if
you are trying to persuade that it works.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
Yeah, because you're looking at the individual as unique and special,
even if you don't agree with it keeps it keeps
us from objectifying other people.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yes, yes, which is you know that that's definitely a
part of our another moment And yeah, you know I
always think of lost when they where they talk about
the others, you know, and I think that that there
is that human nature of just like, okay, those aren't people,
aren't like me, they're others. So it keeps you out

(58:05):
of that space of seeing others, even your partner as
an other, any another person as an other, and finding
a common humanity. Yeah, yes, it starts at home.

Speaker 5 (58:20):
Yeah, the person that you promised to love forever.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Try with them. So I'm just gonna do a quick
rundown of what we've covered so far in our series.
So and the last one we talked about mirroring, and
the sentence stems for that are, let me see if
I got this you said, and that's and then you
mirror back what you think you heard, and then you say,
did I get that? You don't need to say correct

(58:45):
because this is not about being right, it's just about understanding.
And then is there more about that to continue? And
then the validation pieces that makes sense or you make sense.
Sometimes I like to add in a because if you
can elaborate, you know, because I know Clay that you
that muffins are just too small for you. You like to

(59:05):
have a big loaf of bread, like I just remember
that from Thanksgiving last year. If you have a because
I think that really, like you know, cinches it in
with someone feeling understood, and they've.

Speaker 4 (59:16):
Already told you because if you listen to they've kind
of told you.

Speaker 5 (59:19):
Also, why why it makes sense.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
And to go backwards even before the conversation starts is
to check in and see if the person is ready
to have that, I'd like to talk to you about
the bread I'm baking today. Is now a good time?
And then you can make eye contact and take breasts
and you can hug before to help coregulate and feel

(59:43):
safe in the space together. Did I get that?

Speaker 3 (59:47):
Got it all right?

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Well? So for everybody. The next one we're going to
do is empathy. So we'll just go over real quick
the mirroring and the validating so to refresh you. And
then we're going to go into how to respect bond
with empathy and what is empathy, how to develop empathy
if it's not something natural for you, et cetera, et cetera.
So stay tuned for that. And Clay and Sonya, if

(01:00:10):
people are after listening to you, wanting to connect with
you more, where would they find you?

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
Art Live Coaching DFW as a dallas Worth dot com
is our website and they can connect with us through
that and that has our courses for couples and other
materials and things.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
That we have there.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
You'll fight it all right there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Okay, fantastic, And I would like to speak to your
courses because Clay and Sonia trained meet and save conversations
back when quantum connections was relationships first, so that was
a few years ago, and it was such a fantastic
class or workshop, And they're great teachers. They bring a

(01:00:53):
lot of warmth and intelligence and great examples to their teaching.
So very accessible.

Speaker 4 (01:01:00):
Thanks, thanks for moving, thank you for sharing, thank you
for listening.