Episode 376: The Best of The Bravest: Commissioner Tom Von Essen (Volume 75)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You're listening to the Mike to You Even podcast hosted
by media personality and consultant Mike Glow. You were listening

(01:02):
to the best of the Bridge interviews with the fdny's
a week time. You know there's a special connection to
tonight's guest, and I mentioned this to him off the air. So,
as you know, I've been doing this since i was
about seventeen years old, and I'm a few months away
from turning twenty six. And back when I was eighteen

(01:24):
and really just starting out, I had no idea this
as well, before we all started using zoom or stream
yard during the pandemic, so I didn't have any idea
what any of that was. My interviews back then consisted
of me sitting with a tablet under my phone acting
as my speaker and phone with a call going on
with whoever the guest was on top of the tablet,
just recording the phone call. One of those early phone calls.

(01:46):
I'll never forget the time was tonight's guest to introduce
and admit, and I talked with him for about a
half hour forty minutes of course about his response in
the events of September eleventh back then, but I never
talked with him about his full career, all he experienced,
all that he did, But tonight I get my chance to.
Of course, he was on Getting Salty a little while ago,
and now he makes his way over to Mike the
New Aven podcast for volume seventy five of our mini

(02:08):
series The Best of the Bravest, he interviews with the
FD and Wise Lee. I look forward to a great
show with him, and of course, like I said, we'll
introduce some momentarily. Of course, if you haven't checked out
the previous episode, that was a really fun one. That
was with Carl Russo, who spent sixteen of his twenty
years in the NYPD and the Emergency Service Unit, for
what was volume fifty three of our other mini series,
The Emat Inside the NYPD's Emergency Service Unit, And that

(02:32):
was again really fun show. He told a lot of
great stories and I loved loved hearing from Carl. So
go back and watch that one if you haven't already.
So before I play one ad tonight, which is our
new sponsor, just wanted to give a shout out to
my friend George Sickler, retired from the NYPD. He's got
an event coming up about mental health wellness, which is
a very important topic nowadays, especially for first responders. So
this symposium is gonna happen November eleventh, twenty twenty five.

(02:55):
If you want to scan the QR code there, you're
more than welcome to Tactical Recovery and Operation. You'll RESET
Health and Wellness Symposium twenty twenty five with the code
being GS. His initials George Sickler. He's big into that.
Further details here and who the guests are going to be.
He was nice enough to send this over, speaking about
again the importance of taking care of your mind. Besides
your body. The mind's the most important thing you can

(03:17):
take care of, and especially in today's day and age,
we first responder see and endure a lot. It's a
very very big subject. Again, it's tactical recovery and operational.
We RESET Health and Wellness Symposium November eleventh, twenty twenty five,
nine to three am to pm. That is over at
the address you see there, one pat Rally Way and
Mount Cisco, New York's. For those of you who are

(03:38):
interested in attending, I'll see if I could make it myself,
Like I said. New sponsor Granite State Fire Helmets has
now become a sponsor of the Mikey Deviavan podcast. Hey,
there are firefighters and fire buffs. If you're tuning into
the Mike to Be Haven podcast, you know the value
of reliable gear. At Granite State Fire Helmets, we're proud
to introduce to TL two, our premium leather Phoenix fire helmet.

(04:00):
The TL two is all about comfort, durability, and that
timeless style you trust. And here's the best part. All
in stock. Inventory usually ships within twenty four hours, so
you'll have it in your hands in no time. Plus,
our company is proudly owned and operated by firemen, so
you know we've got your back and understand exactly what
you need out there on the front lines. So don't wait.

(04:22):
Gear up with the TL two today. Granite State fire
Helmets or Tradition Meats, Innovation and we're firemen have you covered.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
And they were nice enough to give.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Me a helmet, which I very much appreciate. I gotta
find a mantle Ford second hang it out. I still
have it in the plastic so it doesn't get all dirty,
but I appreciate the gift again. Wonderful, wonderful gift to receive,
especially as a huge firebuff myself. All right. My next
guest is a man with a background in a story
that it revolves around five decades of public service. He
joined the FG and Y all the way back in
nineteen seventy and he started his career with latter forty

(04:55):
two in the Bronx, and he joined the Union thirteen
years after that. Saw he did a lot age of
being president of the Union in New York City for
any public safety institution, let alone the FT and Y.
And that was his role from nineteen eighty three until
nineteen ninety six, when he went from the Union to
overseeing everything within the FT and Y of course as
his thirtieth commissioner from nineteen ninety six until the end
of the Juliani administration in two thousand and one. And

(05:18):
it's not like he went anywhere after that. He stayed busy.
Was particularly active with FEMA and oversaw the response to
the COVID nineteen pandemic as well as relief efforts in
Puerto Rico following Hurricane Maria. It's a man who's seen
a lot and has done a lot, like I said,
across the career that spans over five decades in public service,
and it's nice to welcome him back seven years later
after he originally joined me well before the Best of

(05:39):
the Bravest, well before this podcast, took on a video
for him and that for this volume seventy five of
the Best of the Bravest interviews with the FT and
wiy's elite former fd ANDY Commissioner Tom Mysen Commissioner, Welcome back.
Good to see you again.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
How are you, thanks, Mike. I'm good.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
I'm good, good good. So you know, take me through
and again I never asked you this, so we'll dive
into everything which I didn't dive into dive into with
seven years ago. Rather, tell me about where you grew
up and really where your love for the job came from.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
I grew up in Ozone Park. I was talking to
Charlie Kamarda the other days in Astronaut, who also happened
to be from Ozone Park. So he was one of
the smart guys. I wasn't. I screwed around a lot
in high school and stuff and joined an office program.
When I joined college and got thrown out of the college.

(06:30):
I got thrown out of the offices program, so I
went in submarines as an enlisted man, and then when
I came out, I wanted to finish college and I
had taken a test while I was in and the
fire department opened up and I took it. I figured
I would finish college and leave go into the business world,
and I really loved it. It happened to be in

(06:52):
a terrific unit in South Bronx, which was very, very
active at the time. It was one of the elite units,
like Number three, I think in structural work at the time,
and that was a criteria that you used to decide
whether or not you were in a really great place
and out of a structural work. It wasn't just runs,

(07:12):
you know, but it was just a terrific group of
guys that really molded me into my feelings of what
it's supposed to be in the fire department. And I
spent about thirteen years there, a brief time in Manhattan
and joined the Union after that, and then I guess

(07:34):
my real education began when I spent seven years in
the Union, and you get to see the whole job,
you know, the superstars, the elite units, the guys who
just didn't know anybody and wound up going to a
house that wasn't so great. So you get to see
all the personal problems, all the real issues that you

(07:55):
talked about before, with stress and suicide becoming a big
problem today wasn't so much then. But you get to
your education, my education anyway, because I really cared about
the guys, and I just learned a lot those seven years.
And we got thrown out of the union in nineteen
ninety and went back to the firehouse. Was going to retire.

(08:17):
I had a lot of opportunities to take jobs. Was
going to retire, but I decided to run for president,
so I did that. I ran against a real slug
from Staten Island. I was so glad to beat him.
He was a complete piece. Told me not to curse
on the show, so I won't. He beat him handily

(08:38):
and spent the next three years as president of the union,
and then got the shock of my life when Safeer
called me one morning and said that I'm going to
the PD, which wasn't a surprise. We had heard rumors
of him going to the police department for a while.
But the surprise was he said, how would you feel
about being fire commissioned? I said, don't do that, that's crazy.

(09:01):
You don't even mention I got an election coming up.
I'll get killed. You put a rumor like that out there,
because I know what they used to do. They always
put out two or three names, making it make it
sound like they had a selection committee, you know. He said, no,
you're the only guy the mayor wants here, And I said, really,
I couldn't believe it. He says he's going to call
you in an hour or so. Do you want it?

(09:21):
He'll he won't call you if you don't. I said, yeah, yeah,
I can do all the stuff that I've been fighting
with you to implement in the fight Department.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
And then that was it's start, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
No, I wasn't sure if I just talked too much
on your first question. You want me to just keep
talking for.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
God, listen, you can do whatever you want. I want
to go back before we proceed, though, because and we'll
get into those commissioner years in the union. Will kind
of take it step by step. But those years in
the South Box early on when you got on, Let's
remember where we are in New York City's history. It's
the warrior. It's smack dab in the middle of the warriors.
The sixties and seventies, a lot of fires going on,
cities in a little bit of disarray. Arson's prevalence, So guys,

(10:02):
especially in the South Bronx, are busy. And the guys
that you're getting on with, at least the senior guys
back then, a lot of these guys were fighting in
World War Two, so they were a bit of a
different breed themselves. They'd seen a lot before they even
got to the fire department, let alone all those years
in the fire department. So when you look back on
those years, the fires, I'm sure all blent together, but
the guys who really helped you learn the job, who
were those guys that you would credit with help and

(10:24):
mold you as a young guy early on?

Speaker 2 (10:27):
You know, it was just and you hit on it.
We grew up a little differently, you know, guys that
all been the military guys that have been in Vietnam.
Some of the older guys in the firehouse went back
to Korean War, really the old timers, but all the
young guys who had been military guys were in during Vietnam.
I was in the service, but I didn't fight in Vietnam,

(10:49):
and so it was a different attitude you know, you
kind of accepted all kinds of stuff that people today
just don't accept, you know. I mean, if you were
really sick and called the firehouse, you were embarrassed because
you didn't want to tell anybody you were sick. And
you know, and then after the strike, I guess the
strike was in seventy three or whatever, and then it

(11:10):
was different. Then people were going sick all the time
just to create over time and to you know, break
the city's shops. But in the beginning, when I first
get on, I mean, you had to be really really
hurting to go sick. It was just a different mentality,
and you kind of, you know, one of the guys
in the fire house should to say none dumber. In
other words, we were proud to be there were nobodies

(11:33):
dumber than us because what we were doing for ten
thousand dollars a year and then fifteen thousand dollars a year,
I don't think we even made eighteen those years. When
I came on, it was ninety four ninety nine. In
nineteen seventy, I don't know what top pay was, so
if you're making twenty, but what we did was just
we couldn't do enough. Fire duty. It just couldn't do enough,

(11:54):
and it was really dumb because we were doing vacant
buildings and getting hurt and know, just it was kind
of an idiocy that when I got into the union
later on, I realized, like, what are we doing. This
is what we're calling being safe, This is what we're
calling being responsible. The drinking was out of control, the behavior,

(12:16):
it was just but there was a spirit among the
guys that you took with you I had with me
to today. I mean, it was just, uh, guys had
a lot of kids, and guys were you know, coaching,
and I mean, I know the guys are still that
same good group of men today, but it was it

(12:37):
was just different. You know. I hear I hear some
of my relatives complain about being broke or something, and
I see that they have a brand new car and
they just came back from vacation. So you see yourself
once a little at times were different. You were broke,
but you know, you didn't think you were broke, but
you also weren't on vacation, and you were really lucky
if your car got to the firehouse because maybe there

(12:57):
somebody would be able to fix it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
No, that's true, and that's just the way it was
back then. I always think that the city of that
era is defined by the iconic headline. I think in
the post where it was referring to President Gerald Ford Ford,
the city dropped dead because again, the financial situation was such.
It wasn't just a fire department. Everybody was feeling it
across the board back then. But it's amazing. Even though
there were some problems which you saw firsthand, especially when

(13:22):
the Unioneers came along, which we'll get into it a
little bit, guys loved the job. And guys who were
from that era look back on that era so fondly
because of the fire duty. Not that you want to
see guys get hurt or homes go up. Guys were busy.
Guys got the chance to really, under those circumstances affect
their craft that they were doing so much.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, but not everybody, you know. I mean, I remember
we interchange and we used to interchange with a truck
and queens and they were horrible. And it was one
guy who used to pay people to not go to
the bronx and he'd pay one of the other guys
in the unit please go for me. Tonight because he
was a he was actually a tennis pro. So I mean,

(13:58):
you know that we always had had I'm sure you
got them today, probably more than we had then, but
it was just there's just the way it is. But
it was an exciting time to be a firefighter in
those crazy units, and we weren't the only ones. I mean,
it was a South Bronx hallm never went vacant, so
they were I think even a higher almost a higher

(14:21):
quality of firefighters at the time because they never had
vacant building. We got sloppy with vacants and you didn't
have to be Excuse me, I'm sorry, you didn't have
to be. You know, it wasn't as dangerous. We were
taking chances in vacant buildings that we shouldn't have taken,
whereas an unoccupied building, you know, you took that chance

(14:42):
and the reward that was worth the risk. You know.
Lots of places in Queen's were busy. Brooklyn was busy,
you know, but not everybody. There were lots of places
where the guys weren't. They weren't doing anything.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Right, you know. And again it's kind of lucky to
draw depending on where you are and the Bronx kind
of got highlighted Brooklyn too for that time period.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Oh yeah, absolutely, Bevsteyve sent a Brownsville. It wasn't as
much luck of the draw as you think. You know,
there were an awful lot of guys that wanted to
be in busy places, but they didn't know somebody. You know,
all the societies were involved, the unions were involved. And
one of the things that I was able to do
when I was commissioned was I got involved. I sat
in on the assignments and everything, and it made a

(15:26):
difference because I made it more fair for guys that
didn't know anybody. Well, guys were definitely in the Bone
Marrow program. They did, they got taken care of.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, the lawyers told me I wasn't supposed to do that,
but I didn't.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Care, right listen, listen, yeah, and I understand your reasoning.
We're talking with former RECDHYE commissioner Tom Bonessel podcast. This
is a volume seventy five of the best of the
Bravest interviews with the FRIS elite. I will ask you,
like I said, even though the fires blent together, is
there anything from that time period before you went to
the union as far as a run, as far as
the box, you found yourself saying, man, I really learned

(16:02):
something the night. This was quite quite the event.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
There was just so many nights where, you know, I
remember one night one of the senior guys who had
just come from Harlem, pampalone, said to me, come out
of him, come out of that room, Come out of
that room. He just saw something that he didn't And
as I just walked down the room, the ceiling, the
whole ceiling collapsed. I would have been severely hurt. There

(16:26):
was another fire where we had a great chief. We
were in a commercial building at Hunt's Point and there
were a load of us in there. We couldn't find
any fire and it was in a plan of my guess,
and the ceiling was like some kind of commercial I
don't know what they even made. And he just didn't
like the feel of it. And he said, everybody out,
everybody out, And before we were the last guy was out,

(16:48):
that whole thing collapsed. So the experience that you know,
working with a chief who had good experience, or working
with officers that had been exposed to different things, and
I'm sure it's more more prevalent today than it ever
was because the guys don't do anywhere as near as
much work as they used to. So now having achieved
or an officer with that kind of experience really keeps

(17:12):
makes a lot of people get home a night safely. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
I mean, look at the technology we have now, too, Commission.
I meant, you got even drones that certain units can
deploy over the fire scene and get back to the
command post in real time and say, hey, we got
this condition on this side of the building, watch out
for this. Imagine telling a guy if if time, you know,
machines were real, going back fifty years, telling a guy
in the seventies, yeah, we're going to have this one day.
Look at you like you have three heads.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, that's a great piece of new technology. I think
the biggest thing we had at the time were the
infrared cameras that could see the fire in the wall.
And I remember Ray down he was getting them on
his own. He was running rescue operations and I've said,
what do you mean this chief was getting them on
his own. He was that kind of a guy though,
that took things into his own hands. He got money

(17:57):
from people, he got equipment. It just you know, those
kind of guys. Those kind of rule breakers are the
kinds that you want in your department.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
And he was the perfect guy to run Special Operations
Command because let me tell you that man love rescue
work like no other.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
And I you know, there's no person who was more
valuable than somebody else on September eleventh. But I remember
Julianni and I talking about it afterwards, saying, geez, how
could we how could the first couple of guys we
lost before the judge and Ray Downey because he couldn't
think of any two people. Then we needed more after

(18:34):
the initial incident than for the judge and Ray Downey.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, to outstanding members of the department. And I'll talk
about the squads later on because that was a cool
thing that came into effect in nineteen ninety eight that
really positively impacted the FDNY. So we'll touch on that
as we go. One thing I believe you did while
you were on the job, and mind you you're on
the job during a busy are. On top of that,
you got a family at home, you went back to school.
So if I remember correctly what degree that you wind
up pursuing it, how do you feel that would help

(18:59):
you especially what would come later on.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Well, I only went back because I thought I was
going to leave the fight upon tell you the truth.
So I got a degree in economics and started studying,
so I you know, I did a good job. But
then I thought, well, I'm going to stay, so maybe
i'll teach part times. Then I got a master's in education,
and then I started teaching, and I realized, like I thought,
I liked kids because I had four of my own

(19:24):
that I adored. But then I realized I didn't like
everybody else's kids. I thought they were paying the ass
tell you the truth. So I said, I'm not I
didn't want to teach. So that's when I got involved
in the union.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
So the union, you know, talk about you go from
a classroom of kids to a whole department full of kids.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
Oh my god, So there you go.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
Tell me about learning again. You talked about it earlier
when you were answering early on. But it's such a
different aspect of the job because you're seeing the good, yes,
with the bad and the ugly, and you're getting to
know how to rundown on every last matter. Even for
a smaller department. That's tough for department as large as
the FD and why I can't imagine what that was like.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Well, the Union, Uh, the Union does a good job
mostly for the people that, in my opinion, you wish
you didn't have to do a good job for, Like
you wish you could help all the all the really
superstars and the people who just do it best they can.
But the Union has to go out of its way
for the people. You know, I have a daughter that's

(20:21):
a law professor, and I argue with her and I say,
I wouldn't defend that person. That guy is a bad guy,
like p Diddy, bop Up, whatever his name is. I
wouldn't want to defend that guy. He's a slug. But
somebody's got to defend him. They want to. They got
to get him off. Like I don't want to get
him off. I wanted to be found guilty and put
in jail for one hundred years. That's my mentality. So

(20:42):
I shouldn't be a lawyer. But in the Union it's
the same thing. You have a duty to represent the
worst guy you know. And uh, you know, I never
felt like I wanted to represent the worst guy, but
I was very proud to be able to help all
the all the superstars. I just found a letter the
other day. This is a commissioner thing, though, and it

(21:04):
was a guy who was he was passed over on
a captain's list because he was the last person. Then
they didn't take him, and he had seven kids. Somebody
told me afterwards he had seven kids, and somebody said,
you know, you know, and they told me about it,
and I said, geez, just make them. But so you're
able to do stuff like that, you know, and it's

(21:25):
wrong maybe, but you do it because you feel like,
why am I leaving a guy on one more guy
on a list who's got seven kids? Let me let
me help him out. That was one of the great
advantage of being commissioner to be able to the ability
to be able to do things like that, good things
for good people. And in the Union you get to

(21:45):
do that stuff too, So that was to me the
best parts of those jobs.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Absolutely, And to your point earlier, just to highlight it,
it's not and I remember somebody who had the union
or as a VP of a fire union down here
in Connecticut saying this, and it's true. Sometimes tell me
if you agree it's not necessarily shielding the guy or
the girl from discipline. It's just making sure they're disciplined
fairly in accordance with whatever the regulations may be. You're
not saying they didn't do it. You're not saying, you know,

(22:11):
they shouldn't be punished for it. You just want to
make sure the punishment is fair. Agree or disagree.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
There, Yeah, yeah, definitely, I definitely agree with that. You know,
I had that case that time when the guy's doing
blackface and Howard Beach and you know, I said to Juliannie,
I said, the gas are just dumb. You know, if
I fired every dumb guy and a job, we'd have
a real shortage. And he said, no, it's more than
being dumb. It's it's it's a duty we have to

(22:38):
the people in the city and new You have to
show them that we care about the feelings of minorities.
So sometimes when we're at all level, we don't understand
the magnitude of the message that we send. By not
giving a severe enough punishment, we wound up firing those guys.
They got their job back, and then they fired them again.
They lost their appeal. So some of the sometimes there's

(23:00):
decisions you make are the right ones, and something they're tough,
you know, it's the leadership is is tough sometimes, both
the Union and the department.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
So you left the union and you went back to
the firehouse for a little bit because, as you mentioned earlier,
were thinking about retiring. But you know, nevertheless, a lot
of people would think, Okay, I got that experience out
of my way. You know, now I'm back, and we'll
see what I do with the rest of my career.
I know you ended up running for president, as you
mentioned earlier, and you got it. What made you want
to go back.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Well, I guess it was, you know, the idea of
being able to lead the union and then to take
it in a different direction because I in my years,
the early years in the Union, I got to see
what was going on around the country and I thought
that there were a lot of a lot of fight
uponents were leaving us in a dust as far as training,

(23:54):
And I always wondered, like how a fight apartment like
Phoenix could be so good with any fires, because I
saw early on by statistics that we were getting less
and less fires every year, like our war years you
talk about were really sixty five to seventy five. After
seventy five we started doing less fire duty. And as

(24:16):
the property values became higher in all the poor neighborhoods
in Brooklyn and the Bronx and all the places where
people started to rebuild and you know, you know, people
with jobs would get these places, and the neighborhood started
to pick up. He had less and less fires. So
I was worried that we wouldn't be able to maintain

(24:38):
the level of fire department that we had if we
didn't do other things. So I wanted to train and
do a better job without the fires. And that's the
way to learn. That was from cities all around the country.
And it wasn't in Chicago and Boston and the other places.
The old fire departments like we had, who have really
become so strong union departments and so and so much

(25:02):
corrupt politicians like you have in New York and some
of the big cities. The newest cities were more. They
were accountable to you know, uh, city councils and stuff
that would give you more more firefighters and officers and stuff,
and more training if they needed them, but you had
to show it to them. So I thought that there
was a lot of gains all around the country. They

(25:25):
were doing it with a lot less people, and I
was trying to figure out how that was going to happen.
And I was very glad I did, because then I
thought if I became president, I could I could maybe
lift what I thought was a department that was wasn't
going anywhere as fast as it should.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
And back then money was the issue. And I remember
commissioners Safe for telling the joke when he came on
the program that I wasn't trying to move the fire
Department in the twenty first century when I became commissioner,
I was just trying to get him to the twentieth century,
you know, because again, to your point, resources were scarce
back then. So just tell me about you and then
you highlighted here, but you could expand on as far
as operational matters were concerned. As union president, where did

(26:04):
you feel when you took over the department was doing
well in and besides what you mentioned, what were the
other areas we felt, cay, we got to attack this,
we got to get better.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
I didn't think the department was doing well in anything.
The equipment was terrible. We had an apparatus rule that
I think it was eighteen years or something, before they
had to replace an apparatus. We finally, I don't know
if it was me or I was Safer who got
to drop to twelve. We had horrible equipment the years

(26:34):
that I was in the safety we had the amount
of leg burns that we used to get from firefighters.
We used to wear rubber boots that kind of ended
in the middle of your thigh and Benjamin would be
crawling in and for some reason, I mean, you had
to be a genius to find out that the fire
was going up your legs and burning you and your
upper thighs. I mean, like I said, we weren't very

(26:56):
smart and we did some really stupid things and they
was safe he chiefs at the time that I thought, really,
I always wondered, like, what's going on here? These guys
on a level a lot. You say we were broke,
but we weren't that broke that we couldn't get better equipment.
And Safer and Julianni arrived and we had that horrible
fire I think it was on Watt Street, Tenant Drennon

(27:18):
and stuff. So after that, Safer and Julianni just said,
you mean Dinkins has been talking about this equipment for years,
just go out and get it. In other words, the
money was there if somebody could make the case strong
enough for it to make it happen. So when I
saw Safer and Juliani doing that, I realized, like, we
don't have to be as backward as we were in

(27:40):
my opinion. So when I had the opportunity to actually
lead it, I was like, oh my god, I'm going
to run with this as well.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
You should, And I remember the exact conversation was that
we'll clean it up a little bit for the show.
And it's sad that it took three guys dying and
Captain dreading. That port Man hung on for forty days
before he died, saying, I don't give up what it costs.
Get the gear sure enough within you know, six months.
It's Commissioner Safeer mention when he came on the show
three years ago, they had bunker gear. It's you know,
it's sad that it's not even without those deaths. Just

(28:09):
like you said, guys getting hurt, guys having a miss
time because they're out injured, Well that's avoidable.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yep. And I'm a classic thing with the Palmer. You know,
we're we're not We weren't very efficient then and we're
probably still not very efficient. But I said, the safer
whatever you do, make sure this equipment, the new bunk
gear is delivered in the winter. Whatever you do, absolutely,
absolutely sure enough, they missed that deadline. They delivered it
in the summer. And if you know, bunker gear in

(28:35):
the summer is not very comfortable. The guys love it
in the winter, but they don't really like it in
the summer. It's just that they've gotten so used to
it and the protection is so terrific and you no
longer I don't know when they had last time they
had a leg burn was you know. So it has
made a tremendous difference in the safety of the guys,
which is number one right already.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Sure making sure guys stay out of the hospital, make
sure guys go home to their families. That's the ultimate goal.
And I'll tell you if you ever wanted to just
lose weight in general, well here's what I recommend to people.
You don't got to go to the gym. Just go
put on that bunker gear on a nice eighty five
degree day, walk around for ten minutes in it, and
you'll sweat out whatever it is that you want to do.
You know, you're not kidding. It is hot and that's

(29:16):
it without going into fire building. So those poor guys
having to fight blazes in July and August, they get
it done, but like you said, it's certainly not comfortable.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
You know.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
So during this time too, you're seeing other changes come
to the department. The bunker gear was the big one,
but there's also the component two of EMS, which is
becoming again a more and more how do I put
this not controversial but important topic in today's day in age,
It was important back then, but they were an independent

(29:45):
agency back then. So ninety five, you know, of course
we get the merger the police departments, which opens the
door even further for the possibility of an EMS merger.
First Housing and Transit go into the NYPD. Now there's
this dilemma, and in nineteen ninety six it finally comes
to a head and the merger takes place. Now before
I give it over to you and your thoughts on it,
because you were heavily involved with this during that time

(30:05):
period of courses Union had. Here's what commissioners say for
this about a three minute clip told me originally back
in twenty twenty two, and I'll let you take it
from there. Here's the late Commissioner Safer on the merger
between the New York City EMS and the FDA. But
you know, nineteen ninety six that brings us to the
EMS merger, and this was a year after all the
police forces consolidated in the one. Now there's another merger

(30:26):
that needs to happen. I think they were unhappy with
the personnel, the level of personnel, and also the response
times in the city in regards to EMS, they always
seem to be understaffed, and so the idea was proposed. Initially,
I think the police department wanted to hand in it,
but they just because if you go out to Nassau County,
for example, it's under the police department. But New York City,
the fire department got it. And this was really your
last act before becoming PC, so getting it underneath your

(30:51):
banner at the time the FDN Y tell me about
the process that went into that, Well, there was you know,
there was a lot of resistance.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
Actually didn't want to become what they thought was going
to be servants to firefighters.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
Firefighters didn't want to get involved in medical stuff.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
Although I later got them and involved the medical self
before I left.

Speaker 4 (31:13):
We could talk about that a little later.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
But I needed somebody who knew how to deal with people,
had great administrative.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
Skills, and was tough.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
So I selected Dan i Grow, who eventually became fire
Commissioner and.

Speaker 4 (31:34):
I became a good friend of mine.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
Dan did a tremendous job figuring out how to base them,
how to get them into the organization, and how to
build a koreer path for them to become firefighters if
they wanted to.

Speaker 4 (31:50):
And that helped a great deal.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
You know, it had a lot of bumps, but we
got it done and it's what the way it should be.
And I think we tremendously improved response time. And we
started what I had alluded to a.

Speaker 4 (32:08):
Little bit ago. We started a tear system system of.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
Response to cardiac arrests where firefighters would get there first
and use the fibrillators to get the individual breathing again,
and then the EMS people would get there stabilize them
and save their lives. And so what we did is
we introduced something called CFRD to the fire department, where

(32:35):
now every engine company is equipped with the fibrillators and
they respond to cardiac arrests, and it was interesting the
way that happened. I was walking through headquarters one day
and the young lieutenant said to me, Commissioner, do you
know that we have the worst cardiac arrest survival rate
in New York City in the world. And I said,

(32:57):
I look just the way you look. I said, I
did not know that. He said, I'll tell you why.
He says, the average response time of the EMS for
six minutes or eight minutes, so sometimes twelve minutes.

Speaker 4 (33:09):
He says.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
The average response time of the fby is four minutes surrender.
He said, we could get there with the fibrillators. We
could stabilize somebody until the end of scot there. So
we introduced that again with a lot of resistance from
a lot of firefighters, but they eventually came around and
we started saving a lot of lives.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
That was Commissioner Safer, as he appeared in the program
on August thirty, twenty two. Your thoughts on that I have.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
I have the highest regard for Commissioners Safer. What he
taught me when he was commissioner and I was in
the Union was that we did not have to be
second class citizens to the pd that we didn't have
to be in Neanderthals, that we that we could get
good equipment and good training and everything else. And he was.
He was right on the money. And I think one

(33:59):
of the reasons that they made me commissioner or offered
it to me was because they knew I was in
support of the merger. It never would have happened if
I wasn't in the Union, and I told them that
we would support it because I thought selfishly it was
terrific for my guys. I knew it was one of
the worst departments ever. I had been to a funeral

(34:19):
before that. I never saw so many people that are overweight.
I never saw it was a horribly run organization. I
went to it later on when I was commissioner with
Tom Fitzpatchrick was a phenomenal Deputy commission I had. We
sat down with people at health and hospitals just to
pick their brain and to figure out ways to make
it the merger more successful. You would have thought we

(34:41):
were talking to people. I didn't realize these guys knew
they had an emergency medical service. Their knowledge and their involvement.

Speaker 4 (34:50):
Was so.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Poor. It was just upsetting to think that these poor
folks out there trying to do a good job, and
they have a tough job to do it. I talked
about that during COVID. I never saw anything like that,
but when I was in the Union, I supported it
because I thought, my guys, my firefighters are going to
get medical care a whole lot faster if people are

(35:14):
in the same department, on our same frequencies, our same equipment,
our same training, our same everything, same bosses. Are real merger,
which they haven't completed yet after about twenty seven years,
they haven't really completed the merger. And you talk about
Nigro and de Blasio. De Blasio I thought was the
worst mayor in the history since they've been recording mayors.

(35:36):
I don't know if you want how far and how
wide you want to go with that, but an absolute disaster.
Eight years of Nigro and de Blasio did nothing for
ems nothing. They're still getting paid almost minimum wage. It's
absurd the amount of We never promised them parody with police,

(35:57):
but we certainly promised them by in seven years that
they'd be making as much as sanitation or correction, or
at least that that little bit of differential between police
and firefighters. What they've done to EMS are not done
for EMS, I think is criminal, and I know there's
lawsuits all the time, but it's a political decision. None

(36:20):
of this stuff gets done without a mayor and a
commission of fighting for it, and they've had no mayor
and no fire commissioner fighting for it for the last
twenty five years.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
It's sad to see considering the fact that again the
model on the intent as it's been covered in this
program before, was good. I thought the intent was definitely
rooted in logic and common sense. But ultimately a lot
of things come down to pay a lot of things
come down to parody. And you can introduce all these
different initiatives within the agency. They have rescue medics now,
they have advanced training and all that's great, it doesn't

(36:51):
do you any good if you're not able to support
your family, especially for that.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
Kind of work.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
Well, think about it. Have you ever heard of any
a problem with firefighters quitting?

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Nope?

Speaker 2 (37:00):
No, me either, and I'm around now fifty years, so
it's never been a problem. There's a problem with ems
ts E mts, and not so much paramedics also quitting
because the opportunity is better in any surrounding area, just
like the cops always leave for a better job in
Nassau County, Suffolk County, Westchester County, Jersey Port Authority. There's

(37:24):
so many places for the cops to do better, but
the fireman never leave, but EMS and PARAMENTI all the
time because they're paid so poorly. It's really a disgrace.
It's just wrong. And not having tests and telling people
you come on for two years and you can. We
put that program in there so that people we would

(37:44):
help with the minority recruitment in the fire department because
it was so horribly not diversified, is it, what's the
word undiversified? We had no diversification in the fire department,
so we thought the merger for EMS would help. But
then that they make the guys and ladies wait so
long in the MS. Now it's it's four or five

(38:05):
years that they're doing in the MS before they can
spatroll over the fire. So because it's like a punishment,
EMS shouldn't be a punishment. EMS is a phenomenal organization.
They do a terrific job. They need to be better managed.
It's not their fault. Need to be better paid, and
you know, have a better career ladder for them, of.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Course, you know. And I think the pathway should be simple.
There should be those two pathways where if you want
to eventually go over to the fire department, and I
think Saint Louis is the same model what they're set
up to, you should have that option if that's what
you're trut dire, and you should have fun work on
the street and learning the street, learning what goes into
patient care and things of that sort. But if you
want to if you have no interest in being a firefighter,
you just want to stay on the EMS side of things,

(38:48):
you should be able to make a career out of it,
especially when you're working for the city, whatever city that
may be. And here we are next Mark Afar. They
that merger and as a government, this program will previous
tests at that level three decades. We're not at that level.
It's frustrating.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
We're not even close. So it's no, it's it's pasted frustrating,
it's not right. It's just horrible, horrible management to the
point of malfeasans. It's not even just poor management, it's
mouth seasans, I think. But blame that you can there's
plenty to blame, the politicians, the city council, the mayors,

(39:25):
the commissioners. They're all full of it. So it's just
been a real problem.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Of course. Of course, again no disagreement from us there.
I wanted to want to go back before I hit
on you becoming commissioner, and you touched on it earlier,
but we have a chance to expand on it in
terms of running the union. Just the last note on
the union. You don't do it alone. You had a
lot of great people, I'm sure, helping you and behind
the scenes, just day to day, even when nothing major
was going on, just managing the affairs as best you
could tell me about some of the people who are

(39:50):
really there helping you.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
Along the way.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
In the Union you talking about, Oh yeah, we had
a couple of good guys, and I was fortunate because
when I got elected, I think half the guys who
were against me they had been with the other guy,
that slug that I mentioned from Staten Island. I won't
mention his name when anybody have a good memory of him,
but there were at least five guys who were against me.

(40:14):
And you can't do much in the union because everybody
thinks they're everybody thinks they're president of the union. It's
just everybody has an equal votes. So it's hard to
You can't just order people around, you know. You got
to make it work. So I was able to win
over almost all of them except one guy, and and
it I just did it by letting them see that

(40:34):
I had no agenda. I just wanted to I just
wanted to make it work, you know. So we had Lamacha,
I think was it. Became a Bronx trustee at the time.
Doug Sloan was was a guy who against me. He
was a Queen's trustee. He was terrific. Billy Merrow was,
Mike Carter. They all were really there was solid guys.
There were a couple of slugs that no sense mentioning

(40:56):
their names, but the other guys all came around and
all were tad and we got a lot done.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Absolutely, and that kind of segued into the point, of
course in nineteen ninety six. It's no secret when Safer
originally became the fire commissioner, he was kind of, as
he told me, disappointed. Not that he didn't like the
fire department. He certainly grew to love it. But we
all knew what he wanted, especially a guy that spent
twenty five years in federal law enforcement, he wanted to
be the police commissioner. So finally in nineteen ninety six,
when Bratton leaves, he gets swish and that opens the

(41:24):
door for you. And on the surface of it, like
you said earlier, it's a good thing. Okay, Finally all
these things that I'd been fighting for in the Union,
now I'm in a position where I finally get the
chance to implement those things and do those things. But
there was a lot of pushback at that time, which
surprises me. But again it you went through it so
taken over when you got that call, which, as you
mentioned earlier, was the call of a lifetime. Why do

(41:46):
you think some guys were against.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
Him, Well, you can understand it. I mean, half the
guys thought it was now great thing because the fox
is in the henhouse. And the other guys who were
supporters of different people. People you know, Jimmy Boyley always
used to say to me, and he was a great
Union guy. He used to say, you know, you think
everybody should vote for you, And I really did. I

(42:08):
was one of those guys that thought, gee, why wouldn't
everybody vote for me? I have all the right intention,
but you realize it's not like that. The real world
is people vote for and support people who they think
are going to do something for them. So if you're
a hairbag and you don't want any part of firefighters,
you definitely don't want any part of me. So if
you're you know, it's just a it's a it's a

(42:30):
it's a mixture of people. You know, you're a teacher
in a school. You think every teacher is a good teaching.
You think it's I mean, come on some of these teachers.
It's like that in every job. But you know, unless
you're in special ops in the military, you're probably going
to have a guy on your team where you say, like, jeez,
we'd be a lot better off without this guy. So
I wasn't. I didn't. I wasn't surprised by that. What

(42:53):
really made it more difficult, though, being commissioner coming from
the union was the attitude of the management department. I mean,
if you're a chief over there standing headquarters, you know,
spending your days just you know, going on coffee breaks
and stuff, you're not real happy about some union guy
coming over now not even the officer's union, but the
firefighters union. You're not real happy about him coming over

(43:16):
here and being your boss. So that was a much
bigger problem, I think than the troops, because the troops
just wanted to see results, and we got a lot
of good results, I think, especially for the firefighters who
wanted more training, who wanted to be, you know, taken
up to the next level. They weren't. Of course, guys

(43:37):
didn't want to do EMS runs that were just you know,
babysitting and people in the middle of that. I just
wanted to go to the emergency room. They wanted to
do real work and help real people. But that's part
of the world of EMS, where you have to deal
with so many people who are just abused in the system.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
One of the things I think you told me about
seven years ago when you came up, and I always
loved this story, and I've told this story several times.
When Mayor Giuliani made you the fire commissioner in ninety six,
one of the conditions he gave was you got to
keep Bill Fiann. And I'll never forget what you told
me back in twenty eighteen, keep Bill Fihn. I was
going to beg the guy to stay.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Oh that's the absolute truth. Safe was the one that
actually said that to me. He said, there's only one
condition from the mayor. He said, you have to keep
fian I said, and just like you said, I said,
you gotta be kidding me. I really hope he stays.
And he was upset that he didn't get the job
because he had been acting commissioner when Charlie Rivero, and
Charlie Rivera was another good guy. He's a good fire chief.

(44:41):
In fact, when Julianni got elected, Randy Mastro, who's now
a deputy mayor, said to me, we're going to do
you a favor. We're going to give you Charlie Rivera's
fire commissioner. I said, oh my god, Charlie. He is
a horrible fire commissioner him. So he said, who do
you have? I said, I got nobody. I said, but
I want somebody big, a friend than the mayor, somebody
who thinks big. And that's what it's safe for a rye.

(45:03):
So that was they gave me exactly what I wanted.
They aam me a man who thought big. And if
you come from the federal government, you can't waste money
and fast enough. You can't spend money fast enough, you know.
We were just the opposite to see were nickel and diamonds.
But people came from the federal government knew how to
do stuff. They knew how to do it big and
I learned that when I was at FEMA, the UH

(45:24):
And that's what you know, a guy like Trump is
in there trying to you know, make it, you know,
get a handle on it, and maybe doing it the
wrong way. But also, well that's a whole story. We
don't have to get into national politics. But there is
an awful lot of waste in the federal government. There's
a waste in every level of government. But there's no
reason to not spend enough money to do it the

(45:47):
right way. And that's what Safer brought to the final
But my point was, yes, about was disappointed that he
didn't get the job, and he told me later on,
he said, you know, I was really disappointed. I wasn't
happy that they asked you. But after a while I
realized they asked the right guy. He because you had
the courage to take on a lot of the things
that I wouldn't have. Because he was in a depoem

(46:09):
of so long he was a chief, he was so
tied to all of his old friends and stuff. He
didn't have the stomach for making a change that I
believe we needed.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
And that was the man who, mind you starting the
fire patrol came on in fifty nine and those forty
two years up until he gave his life on nine
to eleven. He held every rank and he's one of
very few people in the department history to have done that.
Every possible rank you can hold he held. So I
don't think there was anybody who knew the department better.
And I think the rumor about him was at least
this is a lore, is that he knew the location

(46:40):
of every fire hydrant in the city, allegedly supposed to,
you know.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
And it was a very smart guy too, very educated.
He really wrote everybody wanted him to write this speech
for him, you know. He was just educated, well spoken,
and he was just like a good man, you know.
Besides yeah, and even his son. So I'm very friendly
with it the same way.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
So I'll tell you in line with that, And he
was one of them when you took it over in
ninety six, much like with the union now as fire
Commissioner who were the guys behind the scenes that really
came up to you and said, Okay, you know what,
whatever the controversy, we're here, we're gonna help you.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
What do you need. Well, I really did have a
great group, and you know a lot of those folks
weren't They were willing to take on the status quo.
And Fihan was one on. Tommy Fitzpatrick was probably the
greatest guy I had. He was fireman in the Bronx
and he wound up being a captain and just really

(47:37):
understood Fordham graduate, real smart philosophy major, that kind of
guy who who understood all the difficult things that they're
involved in at that level with buying equipment and training
and national standards and NFPA and all this other stuff.
So and the courage to stand up for what was right.

(47:57):
Bill Fihan, of course we had, and Malley and the
training he was great physiology, and Eddie Garritty came off
the line and said he was willing to stand up.
Went out to training, which we flipped that whole place over.
Training was a mess, so it was just people in
so many areas throughout the department. The shops were a mess.

(48:20):
I don't remember at the beginning their fire prevention, of
course is still you know, Neanderthal operation. But you know,
you had to have the right people. People were willing
to take on the old, the old way of doing
stuff and Julianni. Without Julianni, you know, you can't get
anything done. And I do understand when you run into

(48:42):
a guy, you know, a horrible mayor, you know, it's
it's difficult to get stuff done within within the means
that you have, within the tools that you have. You know.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Yeah, and that's something that can affect Jenny where you go,
and it's at certain places it's magnified New York City,
it's definitely magnified. Now, I homised I would talk about
this on the air because this is a subject of
interest to me. When you sent some pictures over, we
have this from Newsday January of nineteen ninety seven. You've
been commissioner less than the year. If we can throw
that picture up Producer Victor, where you had done a

(49:13):
shake up. Again you talked about not being afraid to
take some things on. This was a situation where again
you can go into it. What exactly were you taken
on here? When we got this.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Taken on the chiefs. It was funny. I told when
Kavanaugh was over there recently, she said to me, oh,
you're the guy that the chiefs hate. And I said, well,
you'll see how long you last with them. You know what.
It's the operation with the staff chiefs, and they after
September eleventh, the he got even more of them, which
was a mistake. But there was always an issue with

(49:44):
the chiefs running the develment. They just the chiefs, and
we're generalizing. Of course, there's exceptions to every rule. Some
of them are just phenomenal. Most of them are good
fire officers. I mean we've had some really, I mean
a guy like I remember him coming to me and saying,
you know, Tommy, he says, I don't want to do this.

(50:05):
I don't want to be up here and I don't
want to take on all these issues and stuff. And
I said fine. He went back to the division and
just a phenomenal fire chief. You know. So you have
those people. If any done, then they never liked working
in headquarters either. Phenomenal fire chief don't. They don't want
to do the administrative stuff that you have to to
fix stuff. They don't want to be held accountable. They

(50:27):
don't want to be worried about budgets. They don't want
to worry about over time, medically abuse, they don't want
to worry about all that stuff. So that's the stuff
that you need when you're going to run a multi
million dollar operation with seventeen thousand employees. It's not all
the fun part is going to a fire. The other
part they're making stuff work throughout the department is is

(50:52):
stuff is hard stuff, you know, it's like running a
business like a CEO. A CEO would never have a
whole group. But people who were guarantee their job and
civil service, we're just waiting for the thirty five years
waiting for their car, their minor car accidents. I can
say the neck hurt and finally hit that three quarters,

(51:12):
which is I don't know if any staff chief that's
ever gotten out wasn't on disability. There may have been one,
but he would be like me, that very big exception
to the rule.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Yeah, then it's prevalent too in the PD. That's the
headline that has recently come back in the form of
of course the PD And this is this just in
from Garrett Linger, and we hope this member is okay.
Collapse of a private dwelling in Brooklyn, a members missing.
So man, thank you for letting us know about that. Garrett.
Let's hope that members found in that he or she

(51:46):
is okay. So thank you very much for informing us
of that. I just got goosebumps with you saying that
we never want to see members get hurt. Something cool
that happened that we could talk about too. And you,
of course weren't the only one involved in this chief down.
He was involved a lot of other moving parts here.
Special Operations Command had existed in a lot of different
forms prior we had thirteen David in the fd Andy
for a while. And July first of ninety eight is

(52:09):
when a lot of engine companies across the city that
maybe weren't getting as many runs before become Special Operations
Squads two eighty eight and two seventy in Queens, forty
one and sixty one in the Bronx. Of course, in
Manhattan you had Squad eighteen. Brooklyn already had Squad one.
You took Engine two fifty two and made that a
squad as well. Staten Island didn't have one until years
later with Squad eight but those were the original seven

(52:29):
in nineteen ninety eight. Tell them about the concept of
that behind the scenes and then seeing it become a reality.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
So I mean, if you said to me what was
the best thing you did as fire commission I'd say
the squads and then you'd say then I'd say, well,
one of the most painful things I did is fire
commissioner with the squads, because on September eleventh, I think, well, listen,
ninety guys from special operations. Yeah, so you say to yourself, well,
would you have lost that many guys that they probably not.

(52:55):
They were the best trained. I mean, you had five
rescue companies that were, in some people's used, the best
trained and the best motivated, highly motivated, best firefighters in
the city. Other people would say they just I mean,
I remember really good truckies in all the busy areas.
They would always argue that, you know, f rescue, you're

(53:15):
not all of them. But I mean when you wanted
something complicated, it was something special equipment or special training.
That's who you wanted at the job. I had chiefs
come to me and say, sometimes I go to a fire,
I don't feel confident that I have any unit at
the job that knows what they're doing to a certain level,
and I'd say, like, holy, that is a problem. How

(53:36):
do you fix a problem like that with a limited budget.
Giuliani gave us a replace the truck in Queens that
had been closed. I think he replaced a load on
an engine in the Bronx that had been closed. But
he wasn't going to give us, you know, five six
seven more companies. So we had the idea of taking
these places that were very slow. I think one of
them was Fian's kid was in two eighty eight, I think,

(53:59):
and they weren't doing as much as they were. Most
of the places were motivated, and we came up with
this idea of making them all squads. The budget would
be very inexpensive to do. We could do it within
our own numbers because all we needed to do was
give them more training and give them some more equipment.
We didn't have to buy engines, we didn't have to
do anything. We told the guys in those firehouses you

(54:21):
can go wherever you want. We had tryouts, which was hysterical.
I remember having the tryouts and one of the guys
was like, letting everybody do this. The union sued me
because they wanted to have tryouts on overtime, and I said, yeah, right,
that makes sense. I'll have every hairbag and a job
coming for a tryout because he's getting on overtime. I

(54:42):
wanted to get motivated guys. So we had Terry Hatton
doing it, and he was a really tough piece of work.
He was as bad as Downy when it came to
wanting to raise the level of special operations and everything.
So he had no problem telling fatsoge it off the ladder,
not going to a squad, or you can't get up
the ladder.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
You know.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
It was just it was, and we got it done
before the lawsuit kicked in, so we didn't have to
worry about paying them on overtime. And then we picked
five captains. Tommy Richardson was one of Dennis Olgi's from
has Mennis Murphy, Dennis Murphy. We had a great group
of guys. We picked five Tracy we let them pick

(55:25):
their own. We had like a baseball draft where you
could pick a lieutenant, and then I picked a lieutenant
and I picked it. And they did the same thing
with the firefighters. So it was just a phenomenal success.
Everybody was happy with the squads, the members, the officers,
the chiefs were very happy. Everybody was really happy, and

(55:46):
it was just a terrific addition to the professionalism that
we needed in every borough. Now every job, a rescue
or a squad showed up, so you had that first
level of common. The squads weren't trained to the level
of rescue, but they were, you know, much closer to
the level of rescue than even a good truck, you know,

(56:06):
throughout throughout the city. So it was just h just
one of those win wins that were able to do U.
And a few guys got pissed off. You know, you're
insulting me because you know you're taking me out of
where I wanted to be. One company. We asked them,
and they really fought us, and we changed our mind.
We said, you know, staf forget the number it was

(56:27):
in Manhattan. But they didn't want to. They didn't want
the extra work, they didn't want the extra training. But
it was I would say ninety nine percent success.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
Yeah, I mean even with the tragedy of course of
nine to eleven. I said this before to some of
the guys that have worked in the squads over the years.
If Chief Downy was still with us today, I can
see what the squads have become, he'd be so proud.
You know. It has become such an asset to New
York City, so much so that now Staten Island has
one too with Squad eight. You know, there's so much
they can do if they have the rescue out on

(56:59):
an they called the squad can act as the rescue
they got the second hasmat pieces in quarters. There's so
much good that came out of it because it allowed
guys who were young and ambitious and hungry, like you said,
to add a new level to their careers, and even
more senior guys, you know, like you mentioned some of
the captains or even a guy like Hank Mlay who
was working and Rescue one, to extend his career by

(57:20):
working in a place like this, still doing special operations
work mentoring the younger guys. So I mean you talk
about a win win that is something that has proven
to be a true blessing for the New York City
Fire Department. Yeah, great creation. YEA very proud of that absolutely.
And there's a picture I loaded in there too. On
an unrelated note, and this is an uplifting thing that
I wanted to highlight with you. Tim Stackpole got hurt

(57:41):
bad at the Atlantic Avenue job in nineteen ninety eight.
Three firemen were killed that night. One of them was
supposed to go to SoC which was a Captain La
Piedra and Lieutenant Blackmore got killed. I believe there as well,
actually two, Lieutenant Blackmore and Captain la Piedra. Timmy was
the third guy injured, and a lot of people thought
he wouldn't make it, fought his way back, made it
to full duty. And we have this picture from two
thousand when Timmy makes it back and you're there. I

(58:03):
believe this is his first tour back. If we could
throw that one up there, Producer Victor as well, just
again and this is the pig a wrong picture. Hang
on a second, let me highlight it here. Here we
are tell you about again Timmy's courage and just getting
the chance to be there for such a wonderful, wonderful moment.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
I had such mixed feelings, you know, when we lost
Timmy on September eleventh, I felt almost like a personal
like a personal guilt for it, because I always felt
like I shouldn't have let him back. You know, he
was out like probably two years on light duty, had

(58:40):
a special boot made. Doctor Kelly said he was able
to do for duty. So you know, she would love
to have kept him about too, but she felt like
we couldn't, and he wanted to come back. He did
light duty at the medical loves used to walking around
telling all the headbags, like get back to work. He
was just unbelievable. And he finally goes back to work

(59:01):
this day painted he asked that he was. I ride
with him. It's on a Sunday morning and they're going
through stop signs and red lights. I said, what are
you doing. I'm the commissioner, I'm in the I'm in
the back seat. You know what I mean. I can
imagine what you're doing when I'm not here. You know,
they were just crazy. It was just a great unit,
great spirit. And yet on September eleventh, when some of

(59:24):
the guys wanted to go in with him, he wouldn't
take them all because they didn't they weren't they didn't
have all equipment that they needed, and he wouldn't take them.
And guys talk, One guy in particularly talks about that
I saved his life by him not bringing him in there.
So Timmy is, yeah, a very very special person to

(59:49):
me and to you know, thousands and thousands of other
guys and his kids. I think two of them are
on the job. I know one. I know about two
of them.

Speaker 1 (59:59):
And and of course his story was told by ABC
News in late two thousand and one. They did a
great special Charlie Gibson and Diane Sawyer on him where
his wife said it, I believe Tara is her name,
where she's like. He would tell people even afterwards, now
I'm going back and they're like, what you know, you're not.
He's like, yeah, I am. He made it back. He
made it back, he got promoted. So even you know,
with the tragic way that he died, it's still a

(01:00:20):
very very uplifting story because not a lot of guys,
same thing with Ron Buka. Ron Buka, with the way
he got hurt, they called him the flying Fireman. As
you know, a lot of people thought he wouldn't make
it back. He made it back too. So he had
some tough home brais in the history of the ft
and y tim Stack pulls one of them for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
And Tarror came to me afterwards and said, you know,
Mayjorliani told me you were really upset, and you should
know that you would not have prevented him some coming back.
Was not your fault. So I mean, it's just the
kind of people that they are, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Yeah, absolutely another picture here we got. What's the story
behind this one?

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Oh jeez? You know, I when I was in the
union with Cuomo, I supported Cuomo, and the guys were
only already you know, really pissed off it that they
didn't want to support them. They wanted to support Pataki,
and I had made a deal that I didn't tell
too many people about that we if we support them,
we'd get the cancer bill. So I thought it was

(01:01:13):
worth it. I didn't think he'd win, but we made
that deal. And Jimmy Boyle and Richie Brower had done
all the work for the cancer bill those previous years,
but they couldn't get it over the finish line. And
then when I was president, I was able to get
it over the well, I was still in the Union,
I think when we yeah still in a union when
we supported him and I got the cancer bill, which

(01:01:35):
is a great accomplishment.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Absolutely helps a lot of guys in light of what
a couple questions in the chat here in light of
what we talked about earlier about SoC Steve Arado asked
Mike so by adding the squads, did the FD and
Y basically double the size of Special Operations Command back
in nineteen ninety eight.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
I would think it was at least doubling it. We
had the five rescues, there were probably maybe it might
have been a couple more guys in every rescue unit,
and it was in a regular unit, right, I forget that.
But with five more squads or six, yeah, we've basically
doubled it. Close to close to doubling it a little less,

(01:02:13):
little more maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Yeah, makes sense. And there was a question earlier from
pat Hetzel. He wants to know if you're still teaching
it New Jersey City University.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
No, no, no, Kevin Mallley left there. I left there.
He is back.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Also, he mentioned Lieutenant Maley was one of his professors
in New Jersey City University, So you wanted to know
if you were still there. Thanks for the questions, both
to Pat and Steve. I appreciate him. For those of
you that have questions, you already know by now, keep
it respectful. Throw a question in the Chatt'll make sure
I get to it at the appropriate time. Of course,
two thousand comes around the prep for Y two K
goes down. Y two K goes off about a hitch,

(01:02:44):
which was good. I've had a lot of guys talk
about that, and we've talked about, of course nine to
eleven at length. For those of you who are interested
in hearing about Commissioner by Essen's experience that day, you
can go back and listen to I'm sorry, I see
now that I'm frozen, but you could still hear me, okay,
episode thirty six of this program, in which Commissioner bond
us he's discussed that at length, but in the aftermath

(01:03:06):
of that, like we discussed off the air and I
apologies apologies again to the audience for me being frozen.
I hope you can still hear me. Find so we'll
keep going, you know, tell me about again. Much like
with the Union, he had a great team behind you.
You're dealing with a lot, and I mean a lot
at this time. What was it like to have them
at least helping you through as your managing media inquiries,
people wanting to visit the site, and of course, first

(01:03:26):
and foremost, first and foremost rather taking care of the
guys and the families of the guys who were lost.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
You know. Lent Tierny came in one day. She was
a debut commissioner for Intergovernmental and she said, like there
was a guy out in Texas or something like that
that it ran a company on how to deal with
this type of crisis, and okay, so we hired them
and they brought a whole bunch of people just like

(01:03:54):
nice ladies, who like typical Midwest ladies that just got
on the phone and they were just outstanding. I forget,
I am sorry, I forget the name of the company,
but they were just outstanding. The people in headquarters, all
the civilians at headquarters until the anthrax incident, were unbelievable

(01:04:15):
because we were getting mail every day that you wouldn't
believe the amount of mail we were getting. Everybody wanted
to send five dollars or the kids wanted to send
four quarters, you know, to all the guys and stuff.
So then when the antwer ACX came, we had to
stop doing that. We couldn't let all the volunteers open

(01:04:38):
up all these bags and all the envelopes. And then
FEMA gave us nineteen. You saw teams urban search and rescue.
So I laugh when I hear people talking about away
with FEMA, about how important femas want to save money.
That's fine, lots of ways to save money and FEMA,
but to do away with it, to do away with
you saw teams who and not not every city has

(01:05:02):
a fight deppontment like we have, and we needed help
on September eleven. So the amount of ability to send
you saw teams to an incident in North Carolina or Arkansas, Mississippi,
or somewhere where they might not have the resources or
the talent that we have. You know, that's just crazy
to think about doing away with that kind of stuff.

(01:05:23):
So yeah, we had help from everybody. Everywhere came. People
sent us new trucks, new rigs. If you were scheduled
to get a rig in Baltimore, you said, you know what,
send it to send it to New York, painted for
New York and we'll wait for hours. So because we
lost I think about fifty pieces of apparatus equipment. So yeah,

(01:05:44):
it was just the support. And it was like our politicians, right,
I mean, all those prostitutes down in Washington actually worked
together for months after September eleventh, and then in the
beginning of the next year they all got back to normal,
and it's gotten worse. I think these past twenty five years.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
I think, yeah, and again apologies for the camera difficulties.
Will continue on and try to fix that. In the meantime,
we're talking with that that's actually that's.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
A better picture of you, so that that works, hopefully
will get me back before the show is over live podcasting,
and it's fine as sometimes you get this.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
But again, you know, I feel like for as much
as you as you hear in the old movie tale
Two Cities, best of times, worse the times. This was
the worst of times. No one would ever want to
go through something like this, but it was the best
of times. At the standpoint, we saw so many great
people come out of the woodwork and do some incredible
tim incredible things, I should say, under such a time
of otherwise immense duress.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
No, there's no, there's no question about that. But when
I look back for the amount of good and the
best that I see, you know, I certainly wish, I
like we all we wish it never happen, But you're right,
I mean, you get to see what people are really like.
I mean, I saw one headbag from the department who

(01:07:05):
had been trying to get his three quarters for years,
and then I heard a couple of days later, well
he went over to the trade center that night and
he got hurt. I thought to myself, Oh my god,
there's just no shame with some people, you know. But
if I look at it, and I look at the
the respect to the effort that the majority of the

(01:07:28):
people on the job made, I never saw a better
group of people and at a worse time and really
making a difference. Yeah, well, I guess I got the
rest of the show myself. No more, you know, more
questions anymore. The one thing I remember noticing, like was

(01:07:53):
the amount of people the grief that we had. The
up drational stuff was not as much of a problem
as the as the grief and people that we had
on a team at headquarters with some of the civilians
and the chaplains and everybody else who stepped up to

(01:08:13):
try to help us. With the families, the mothers, the fathers,
the wives, the kids. That was the hardest part, I
think for all of us who cared so much in
the fire department, you know, the operational stuff, what the
what the chiefs did on the scene, what the units
did on the scene, the searching, what the band did,

(01:08:34):
coming to the funerals, what the ceremonial and all that
stuff was really hard and difficult. But that was our duty,
that was our that was our it was our mission
to step up and take care of that. But dealing
with the heartache of the of the families, there was nothing.
There was nothing like that. There was nothing that measured

(01:08:57):
up to that in my opinion. Uh huh. I don't
know if I'm talking to myself now. Mike's still there.
I know I'm controversial, but I can't believe somebody sabotaged

(01:09:20):
the whole show.

Speaker 5 (01:09:22):
Yeah, somebody definitely satisfages this episode. We're gonna have to
link into that. We're gonna give Mike a few few
minutes try to figure this out live podcasting at his finest.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
You think it's China, You think China can.

Speaker 5 (01:09:38):
Yeah something, somebody somebody's doing something there, don Mike. We'll
put you in the back room, mister von while Mike
comes back.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
All right, we'll put you in the back room here,
or if you want me to a ask myself a
question and answer that day that works too. So one
of his questions was fifty years of service, so what's next.
There's nothing next. I'm working for a construction company, just

(01:10:10):
trying to mentor a couple of young guys, and I
love being involved with safety and young people. And today
I attended a meeting and they talked about suicide and
construction business and they say they lose four people every
day in construction depths. You know, heavy construction, serious work,
so stuff like that, you know, you don't realize, and

(01:10:33):
it's something we've dealt with in the fight department with
suicide and in my generation and Mike talked about it
earlier on it was always just like, you know, tough
en up, you know, get over it, that kind of stuff.
And you realize that that's not the case anymore. There
are some really difficult things that people are dealing with
with depression and a lot of other issues. So it's

(01:10:56):
something to be taken seriously and something not to be
made light of. And uh the offer of helping people
who have one reason or another if they're depressed or
you notice a big difference in their behavior, you should
make other people aware of it and try to help them,
and I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
Mike's back, yes somebody, Yeah, you're right. It might have
been China who exactly exactly. Good evening once again, everyone,
I'm glad to be back. I don't know what was
going on in my computer. Perfect timing of course, smack
dab in the middle of the show. But where we
picked up, and thank you so much Victory for saving
my bak and this is why Victor is the best
producer in the podcast business. That was that was big

(01:11:33):
biked up in appreciate just apologies to everyone. I had
a technological glitch here. But we're back now. So where
we picked up is I did want to ask you
to again, this happened three months before you left, and
this wasn't the end of your public service careers. We'll
talk about a little bit further. If you had had
more time to oversee the recovery efforts before, of course,

(01:11:55):
you had to leave in two thousand and two, what
would you like to have done?

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
Well, it's because I didn't have to leave in two
thousand and two, Bloomberg. Bloomberg had and I really wanted
to because I loved I wanted to finish implementing a
lot of the things that we had put in, and
I knew that the chiefs would get rid of a
lot of stuff after we left the accountability programs, they
stopped rotations. We used to rotate the chiefs that a

(01:12:21):
lot of firefighters in some of the slower areas used
to really appreciate. We rotated probationary firefighters at the three
different units I took before, about guys that didn't have
a connection, maybe never got to a good place, so
they got to see a great place in one of
those years, and then maybe whenever they went, they'd tried
to make that place better or try to get back

(01:12:42):
to it. So there were a lot of programs that
created a lot more work that I would have continued
and expanded. But when, like I said, when Bloomberg asked
me to stay, I said absolutely, but he wasn't going
to get elected. And then when Giuliani was so popular
at the time, he endorsed Bloomberg and Bloomberg was down

(01:13:05):
fifteen points at the time, and Bloomberg won, and then
by that time it was November and I was an
emotional wreck. You can see I'm still somebody who gets
really upset thinking about a lot of this stuff. There's
things that just set me off, you know, so you
can imagine what I was like at the time. It

(01:13:25):
was a very difficult time emotionally for me dealing with
I was lucky that I had a family, a wife,
a great wife, and poor good kids, and a bunch
of grandchildren, and one in particular that I spent a
enoful lot of time with the little bit that I
was getting out of the city, So that saved me.

(01:13:46):
I think, you know, helped me get through that time,
but it wasn't enough to make me want to continue
with that grief every day. I don't think I could have,
you know, gotten through it. So I told Bloom that
I was going to go, and I went with Giuliani
and we stayed with him quite a long time, did

(01:14:07):
a lot of speaking around the world about safety and communications,
and then later on, quite a bit later on, got
a call from FEMA asking me if I would help,
And I was so glad I did that because I
got to work again with the military and firefighters and
stuff in Puerto Rico and Virgin Islands, and then COVID
was an unbelievable experience in New York City. Those of

(01:14:29):
us who worked through that that was really a scary,
frightening time. And what I saw the firefighters do and
especially what Emis did was remarkable. I think during COVID and.

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
The thing that we talked about off the air and
when we were kind of putting this show together too
is nine to eleven. For as devastating as it was,
was one compact zone in Lower Manhattan and one day
after which you had to grap it with the effects
of that day in the coming months. But it was
an event. It's if you look at the event itself,
it took place in one hundred two minutes, you know,
basically just over two hours, almost three, and then it

(01:15:03):
was over, although it was never really over, you know,
from the emergency response context. That's that's how I mean it.
COVID was a prolonged thing. There was no one zone
for it. It was a worldwide issue and for a
time at least in the United States, and New York City
was deep epicenter of it. So just dealing with that
with FEMA, where there's so many moving parts, there's so
many different people getting sick. You don't know who's coming in,

(01:15:25):
you don't know who's coming out. We were in quarantine
for majority of twenty twenty. And again, like I said,
there's no specific hotspot you're dealing with where it's all right,
let's contain it to here, you said to me off
the air, and we can expand out it here. That
was the most challenging thing you ever.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
Dealt with operationally. Yeah, nothing will compare it to September
eleventh because of the personal grief that all of our
guys went through. You know, I saw a friend the
other day who I was telling him about his father.
I went to his son's funeral. He wasn't a fire
I fight. He was a Wall Street guy. And I

(01:15:58):
remember his father the saying to me, I'm so blessed
that I had my son for forty years. So I mean,
that was the Catholic, you know, really religious person who
found solace in the fact that, wow, I had my
son forty years. How lucky was I? I mean, but
that's a really mature religious person who not like the

(01:16:21):
normal person. As far as what I could see, the
wives that I dealt with, the families that I dealt with,
they were just so angry that we couldn't give them
back their loved one. We couldn't even give them remains
and then when we gave them remains, I don't even
want to tell you what we called remains. And then
it was just it was just it stirred it up.

(01:16:43):
Every day, every day they're watching television and the bombs
exploding and the buildings exploding, and we're at war. It
was just the grief part of September eleventh will never
be matched, in my view, the operational part. You're absolutely right.
I mean, COVID was something that got worse every day

(01:17:05):
with September eleventh. It didn't get worse every day, you know,
it got not much better every day, microscopically better, but
it didn't get worse. But COVID got worse. I remember
being on the subway where I was in FEMA, and
I was hearing about this, you know, ground zero a
nursing home in Washington, the state of Washington. And I'm saying,

(01:17:27):
ground zero five nursing homes in the state of Washington.
I'm going to have ground zero here and it won't
be long because everybody's coming through New York City everyday
because of our airports and our tourists, people from all
around the world coming here with business. And who was
letting people in who wasn't mentioning that they may have

(01:17:47):
had COVID. I mean, it was disgraceful. And then I
was right. I mean, in a couple of weeks we
had to not tell our people that come in. I
had to work out of a military base in Jersey,
going there every day. The only good thing during COVID
was there was no traffic. And then at the trade
center every day with military people, it's an unbelievable experience

(01:18:10):
to watch what we can do if we really, if
we need to, and it was it was really something,
really something, But it was tough watching more people die
every day today, two hundred, tomorrow, three hundred tomorrow, next
day four hundred, Holy Mackarel. It was just but it
wasn't as personal as September eleventh was for any of

(01:18:31):
us in the Fight Department. And me, I put myself
in the top of that group, in that top percentage
because all the years that had been in it, thirty
two years and from the union, you just know everybody,
you know, and you've dealt with so many people, and
you understood what these women were going through. And then

(01:18:53):
do the eulogy with some young woman and looking in
the first row with four kids and stuff, So it
was that was a difficult time.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
Absolutely, and say the least, Yeah, I can imagine it's
hard to believe we're five years removed from that pandemic
because in many senses, it feels like yesterday. It does
not feel like it's been that long. But somehow five
years have flown by, and this was something It wasn't like, Okay,
this is a few weeks of quarantine. This was about
a good year and a half depending on where you were,
almost two years of a way of life that definitely

(01:19:26):
changed this all. A lot of us have emerged very
very different, especially those who got sick, especially those who
lost loved ones during that time period. That was truly
a life changing event for not just us here in Connecticut,
you and New York or anybody else to country, for
the world. That changed the world.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
Yeah, like September eleventh changed the world. It really was.
But I think also with COVID, it gave an opportunity
for people who just want to whine about everything too.
If you notice, like they just blame everything on COVID.
I mean, you know, if your kid came read oh
it was COVID, you know, I mean, it's I mean
teach a kid to read. You know, it's not just

(01:20:06):
about COVID. You know, COVID was a horrible thing, and
it was a thing that set us all back for
a period of time. But at some point you got
to get.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
Over it exactly. You know, you got to move forward,
and there's a resilience factor. Some of us were very
productive during that time period. You know, we made the
best of the situation. Some of us were not so
to your point about that, Yeah, there's some people that
kind of use it as a crutch and they weren't
that productive, and they weren't that much of a go
getter to begin with.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
Yeah, and it's another example of the federal government the
way it's a candy store. I mean, sending money to
people who had nothing to do. COVID didn't change anything
for older people financially, you stayed home, you saved money.
There was no reason to be giving old people more money.
You needed it. For young people who couldn't who couldn't

(01:20:53):
go to work, who couldn't feed their kids, you know,
it was just like an idiocy, a typical of what
I think the way our government operates now.

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
If I can go back a couple of years before
the pandemic. I mentioned Hurricane Maria. I'm half Puerto Rican,
I'm half American, half Puerto Ricans. I got family down
in pr very challenging situation, and much like certain parts
of New York and New Jersey are still to this
day getting out from under Hurricane Sandy. You got a
lot of people down on the island, you know, that
are still getting out almost a decade later, from the
effects of Maria. What was it like, you know, being

(01:21:24):
a part of that response, efft because, man, you talk
about some things that were handled port.

Speaker 2 (01:21:28):
Yeah, it was phenomenal. I mean Puerto Rico, I think
a great example of the people of phenomenal. The politics
down there, I think is as bad or worse than Oz.
I think it's more corrupt than the Virgin Islands. Virgin
Islands is a little bit more incompetent, not as corrupt
as Puerto Rico. The stuff that was going on down there,

(01:21:51):
I mean the idiocy between the FEMA response sometimes, I
mean getting off of a plan. We'd be unloading a
helicopter with food for all the people, and we realized
that there was all food that nobody liked. It was
like Why are we buying food for people in Puerto
Rico just because it's a friend of a senator an
Arkansas or something like. It was a factory instead of

(01:22:13):
getting it at you know, the Goya bean factory, which
had one on Poart on the island of San Juan.
So it's just, you know, we don't make things better.
The Spanish Caucus is probably one of the reasons for that,
and just the way they operated down there. But the
people themselves, I thought they were phenomenal. They had an

(01:22:34):
awful lot of backward things that were very difficult to overcome.
You couldn't even get addresses for people who needed it.
They would have people who are on medication if you
lose electricity. The electric operation down there, PREPP was probably
one of the most corrupt things I've ever seen, one
of the most competent and corrupt organizations I've ever seen.

(01:22:55):
I wish they had locked up all of those things.
I asked the governor one time, why don't we take
make it over? You know? He said, well, this guy's
relative he is selling them oil and this guy's relatives
doing this, and I realized it was just no way,
but we should have taken over prep. We should have
just dismantled it. We should have rebuilt it, and today
they'd have a great electrical system, which they don't today.

(01:23:17):
I don't know how much better it is today than
it was before or after the hurricanes. But the amount
of damage down there and the amount of storm damage
was really phenomenal, and that people really suffered a lot,
not rich people, you know, like everything else, the rich
people know a hurricanes coming and they get themselves out
of there. But it's the poor people that suffer from

(01:23:39):
all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
Yeah, and I'm not a fan of the guy's music.
I couldn't tell you a single song of his. But
the most revenue, ironically, that they've gotten in recent years
was all the concerts Bad Bunny was doing for his
residency down in Puerto Rico. That's as much, which is
crazy to say that a performer musician brings in more
revenue than people who were in charge of bringing in revenue.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Is that I don't know. Is he the guy gonna
do the Super Bowl?

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
Yes, that's the guy, one of them.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):
So he's a controversial guy. I didn't even know anything
about him. Uh, he wasn't down there during the storms
and stuff was he.

Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
I don't know. I know he's from there. I don't
know if he was living there. He's only taken off
in recent years in terms of popularity, so I don't
know if he was living there, but he generated with
his residence. He kind of like some of these performers
do down in Vegas when they have the residencies there.
Apparently the guy brought in a boo hoood of money
for the island.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
Oh, I was wondering, where where the hell is? I
don't know anything. You know, when you're old, you know
you don't know who the hell is a famous singer
and who's not listen.

Speaker 1 (01:24:33):
I don't know much about the guy either, So don't worry,
don't feel bad. I know who he is. I could,
Like I said, I couldn't tell you a single song.
I can, Yeah, I can. I can name you a
good Dave Matthews album. I couldn't tell you anything about him.
So you're fine bringing things back locally before I bring
you to the rapid fire. It's been a great conversation
with you. I've really enjoyed it. It's nice to catch
up on all the things he did. Bob Tucker's been

(01:24:54):
Commissioner of the FD and wife for about a year now, right,
not an easy job, you know, you know you did
it for five years. If you can give any advice
you know to him on what to do, what not
to do, what advice? If you could talk with Bob
Tucker at all, would you give the man?

Speaker 2 (01:25:08):
Well, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I
don't think he's into the stuff that really changes the department.
We've made so many great changes in training and education equipment.
I think he's his job has been to mostly be supportive,

(01:25:28):
and I think he is very supportive. I just saw
a crazy incident recently about hazing.

Speaker 1 (01:25:34):
Were they yes, that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):
Was a transfer. I mean, I'm just surprised that you
could have people that's stupid in twenty twenty five. I mean,
I remember in the Union telling the guys, guys, wake up.
Everybody's got a name tag. Now this is before the
camera's even but everybody's got a name tag, so people
know who you are. What's would you say? What's would

(01:25:56):
you do? In twenty twenty five? You let Proby's into
your firehouse and then you tell them to get naked
and then do pushups. I mean in some cakes or
whatever just happened before they I mean, that level of
stupidity is probably your person is probably too dumb to
be a firefighter. I mean, you're probably not doing that

(01:26:17):
person any good. If you think the way everybody has
phones now and the damage that people do to other
people with their phones is quite significant. So something's wrong
if you're going to do stuff like that. I think
in twenty twenty five, the drinking that we had years ago,
the bad behavior that we've had, the racism, stuff like that,

(01:26:40):
I think that's we've kind of evolved. But that level
of stupidity, I don't know what he's gonna do with
something like that. That's a tough.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
One, right, you know. And the keyword being we'd like
to think we've evolved. Keyword being think you know. And
producer Victor and I don't mean to laugh, but to
your point, it's like, when you hear that out loud,
how does nobody and I get hindsight? It's twenty twenty
but still some things are common sense. In mind you
I'm a goofball, but not that much of the goofball.
How does nobody at some point say, you know what, guys,

(01:27:12):
I don't think this is a good idea. How does
nobody say that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
That's my point. It's a good idea. It's not even
a good idea if you frisked everybody in the room
and made sure they had no cameras, it's still a
bad idea, right, But you know, I mean, it's just
it's I don't know, I don't even know what to
say about it. It's so dumb.

Speaker 1 (01:27:33):
No, And you know there's a fine line. Listen, breaking
chops in the firehouse is one thing. It's a good thing.
You know, it means guys like you, if they're not
doing it, that's where you should be worried. So it's
very much a part of the fire service. And you
go to the police, it's the same thing. You go
to ems, the same thing. It's just part of the job.
Miller's you say, same thing.

Speaker 4 (01:27:52):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
It's a big difference between that and then what we
read about recently. And I think that's where that line
has to be understood any time, but especially times we're
living in now. If you don't understand it, like you said,
maybe you shouldn't be on the job. So all we
can do right slap at it. Yeah, Well again, you're
not shy to share your thoughts, and that's why I

(01:28:14):
wanted to have you on, and I appreciate you coming
on and sharing so much about your career. You know,
China tried to ruin the podcast and get me off
the ARA, but that's okay. They didn't succeed. I came back,
so we'll blame it on them. You know, we got
glad the technical difficulties didn't ruin a great episode, thanks
to producer Victor again while I was sorting that out
for holding the Ford down. I appreciate you, sir. So
now that brings us into the Rabid Fire, which is

(01:28:36):
sponsored by Bill Ryan and the Ryan Investigative Group. If
we could play his ad real quick and then we'll
do it. The Mike Thing you Have for podcast is
proudly sponsored and supported by the Ryan Investigative Group. If
you need an elite PI, look no further than the
elite Ryan Investigative Group, which is run by retired NYP
Detective Bill Ryan, a twenty year veteran of the Department

(01:28:57):
who served a majority of his career in the Detective Bureau,
most notably in the Arson explosion squad. So, if you
need a PI to handle anything, from fraud, legal services,
and anything else that you might require. Contact Bill at
three four seven four one seven sixteen ten Again three
four seven four one seven sixteen ten. Reach him at
his website or the email that you see here. Again,
if you need a PI, look no further than Bill

(01:29:19):
Ryan and the Ryan Investigator. Through a proud supporter and
sponsor of the Mike de new Haven firecasts, Billy Gross.
I see in the chat, mitch Ster. We did talk
about the merger earlier in the episode, so we did
cover that. I see you the chat as well, my friend.
All right, first question of the rapid fire funniest firehouse
prank you can recall within reason, of course, not what
we recently read about.

Speaker 2 (01:29:42):
Oh I remember one. I remember one time as commissioner
that I was walking out of my firehouse and one
of the guys like kind of winked and went like this,
and he said, don't come out, and all of a sudden,
the big deluge of water came down and splash right
to me. So even as commissioner, they were going to

(01:30:02):
drown me with water from pails from the roof. I mean,
that's the kind of spirit that some of the guys
had in the firehouse, that they would take a risk
and imagine doing that to the police commissioner. Just picture
Commissioner Tish walking out of a police station and getting
drowned with pails of water. But they were going to
do that to me at forty two Truck one time

(01:30:23):
when I was up there, so luckily was prevented.

Speaker 1 (01:30:29):
Yeah, you do that the Commissioner Tish. I think he
might be walking a beat in Staten Island the very
next day. So a little bit of a different situation
there to your boy. Second, you work with a lot
of This is where you could say more than one.
You know, you work with a lot of funny people
over the years between Union of course, beating the firehouse
and even as commissioner. Who were some of the funniest
people you work with.

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
Well, the guy in forty two Truck that everybody knows
was the funniest is a guy named Bobby Blair. I
mean he just he recently died, but he was one
of those people that I still do things today and
most of them I can't mention that I that I
think of him, you know what I mean. And one
time he said to me we were playing racketball or something,

(01:31:08):
he said, well, I didn't realize you got skinny arms.
You know, you got a girly man. Arms used to
call after that, called me girly man until the movie
Jerk came out. Then he called me the jerk. And
he was just and he did the same thing with
everybody there was There was no nobody was off limits.
There was just nothing nothing, Nothing was sacred, and he

(01:31:31):
was just. But it was always you know, it wasn't
vile or vicious or anything. It was just funny, you know,
just a really great guy. And he was one of
the elephants in latter forty two that they used to
call because there was such a a large amount of
very very big men.

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
As you can expect back then. Of course in the
ft and y third, I mean, yeah, we talked about
some of the things that you dealt with that were frustrating,
but it was a great run in those thirty one years.
You dealt with a lot of things that were amazing.
As we talked about tonight as well, what's the one
thing you missed the most about the job?

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
You know, I mentioned it before, you know, being able
to promote a guy who's got seven kids, who who
got left on the list and thought he didn't have
an opportunity to get promoted. I went to fight a
foundation meeting recently and I was leaving and we're getting
coffee and a guy said to me, you don't remember me,
do you? And I said, no, I don't. He said,

(01:32:28):
I came into your office one day. Dennis Murphy brought
me in and said that they were firing me because
something that I did before. He came on a job
and you know, I had a fight with cops and
stuff like that, and I didn't put it down on
my phone and they just found out my investigation, and

(01:32:48):
you know, Dennis Murphy stuck up for him, said he
was a good guy. And I said that's okay, you
don't forget about it, and he said twenty It was
twenty years ago, and it changed my life. They thought
I was you know, when I was going to get fired,
it was going to be the worst thing that ever
happened to me. And I remember doing that with it,
like she's so many guys who made one mistake. I'm

(01:33:09):
not talking about a guy's a total you know, mud
have egg that you were so glad to get rid of.
But I'm talking about good guys that made a mistake,
you know, whether it was drinking, whether it was a fight,
whether it was something that they really regretted, and it
was just it wasn't them, but it was something that

(01:33:29):
they did. Being able to help those guys and you know,
make a difference in their lives that they remember twenty
years later that that was a really good feeling. And
I think that a lot of people in powerful positions
feel the same way about that, being able to I
have something on my wall over here about the Bone Marrow.
I talk about all the time starting an organization like that,

(01:33:52):
and now it's the biggest the bone marrow program in
the fight upon for what I'm told is the biggest
in the country. That every firefighter almost the job is
in it. We've had more incidents where we donate our
bone marrow. You know, it's it's you go on medical leave.
It's a it's a pain in your on your butt
literally for a couple of weeks, but you might make

(01:34:13):
a difference in a kid's life. And I have a
picture of Farrell up here.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
I was gonna say, Terry Farrell from Rescue four, that
you read my mind. That was the story. And if
you mentioned it earlier while I was having my tech difficulties.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
He was the first one.

Speaker 1 (01:34:24):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:34:25):
And the little kid, little kid came from Las Vegas
and she said, Uh, they don't tell you who gave
you the marrow for a year. They want to make
sure you survive. And she waited a year writing letters
to mister Niceman and and that's who Terry was, mister
nice man. And then we lost Terry September eleventh too.

(01:34:46):
So being able to start an organization like that, or
make a difference or do something like the squads, just
you know, it makes it makes you feel real good.

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
I think, yeah, man, if you can. E did a
great feature on Terry couple of years ago for the
anniversary of September eleventh, discussing that story. By all means,
watch it. Get some tissues ready because you'll need them.
But it's a great story. And Terry was a great man.
Like we talked about a few other guys tonight, he's
not forgotten what a great thing that he did and
what a great life he led. Fourth, this is a
tough one, but like I said earlier, you could save

(01:35:19):
multiple here too. After a long day of either you know,
dealing with you and stuff, or being the fire commissioner.
What was one place or a couple of places that
you'd like to go to for a nice bite to
eat in the city.

Speaker 2 (01:35:29):
Oh, geez, we used to go Smith, Velenski's, Promola's, Bobby Vans.
A lot of good places. They're all real expensive now,
but when we lived in a city. We moved back
out to Long Island about eight and nine years ago,
so don't get into the city as much as I
used to, but still lots of good places.

Speaker 1 (01:35:50):
I only asked this because Bill Bratton was a big
proponent of this restaurant, as was John Miller. A lot
of the PD guys of that air were you and
Aline's guy too?

Speaker 2 (01:35:56):
Or not?

Speaker 1 (01:35:57):
Really?

Speaker 2 (01:35:57):
No, I was there a few times. I thought it
was a great place to get yourself in trouble, saying
I remember meeting Bodda there and you know some of
the guys. But I didn't hang out with I didn't
run with that crowd very much in the Union War
as commissioner.

Speaker 1 (01:36:15):
Yeah, makes sense. Good place, good place. A lot of
notable names ate there. The fifth and final question, the
rapid fire FT and Y has a class in right now.
They just graduated a class recruits not that long ago.
If you can pull a new recruit Brian aid and
bushytailth to side and give him advice, what advice would
you give them?

Speaker 2 (01:36:33):
Well, those recruits that were in the firehouse last week,
you know, naked, I would advise them, that's not a
good idea. Keep your clothes on in the firehouse, don't
do pushups in cakes. But to be serious, to talk
to the firefighters, I would tell them, like, if you're
expecting a fire every time you go to work, then
you're on the wrong job. And if you don't want

(01:36:54):
to help people on a regular basis that needed at
the worst time in their lives, then you're in the
wrong job up too, because that's what we do when
when people really need help, whether it's medical or whether
it's you know, because your your home is in jeopardy,
that's that's what we do. So if you don't want
to help people, don't be just thinking at a time

(01:37:16):
off and the medical leave and everything else. Think about
wanting to make a difference in somebody's life.

Speaker 1 (01:37:22):
Absolutely great advice, and again my thanks to you stick
around will Talk off air, and my thanks to producer
Victor for saving my Bacon tonight while my computer was
having some difficulties. Glad we were able to square that
away so that it didn't ruin the episode. So I
appreciate all you sticking with the show despite those difficulties. Again,
apologies on that front. Before I say good bye to

(01:37:42):
the audience, Commissioner, like I said, stick around, we'll talk
off the air. If you have any shout outs to
anyone or anything, the floor is yours. What shoutouts do
you have?

Speaker 2 (01:37:50):
No, I just want to thank all the all the
great people that I've worked with over so many years
in the fight department. A lot of them aren't around anymore.
A lot of them have yes, but a lot of
them still are. And I wish I could shake their
all hand and all the hands and thank.

Speaker 1 (01:38:06):
Them well said. Again, my shout out to you. We'll
talk off heir. Shout out to Victor again for holding
the fort down. And shout out to as always to
all you and the audience you tuned in a night,
good show. Like I said, live podcasting sometimes, and you
see it on Getting Salty too. We run into problems,
but we overcome them. It's the beauty of doing a
live show. You know, you deal with those things from
time to time, and shout out to the Vonesssen family.

(01:38:28):
I hope you guys enjoyed the interview with your father, husband, grandfather,
so on and so forth. I think we had a
lot of fun tonight cover a lot of good things
coming up next to the mike the New Aven podcast,
as I mentioned before, and this got a lot of
buzz locally. He's the chief of operations for my hometown department,
the New Aven, Connecticut Fire Department, and it'll join me
this Monday for best of the Bravest nationwide addition, and
that is Chief Dan Coughlin. And then next Friday. He

(01:38:50):
was an EMN in the NYPD Emergency Service Unit. Later
finished his career specifically from nineteen ninety three until two
thousand and four in the Aviation Unit as a lieutenant.
That's Glenn Dale. For another volume of the emat inside
the NYPD's Emergency Service Unit, that'll be volume fifty four.
In the meantime, of course, shout out to everybody working
tonight in the New York City Fire Department. Are well wishes.

(01:39:11):
We certainly hope that member in Brooklyn is okay, and
we'll keep him or her in our thoughts and prayers
tonight and on behalf of Commissioner Tom von Essen and
producer Victor and all of you in the audience. I'm
Mike Colone. We'll see you next time. By the way,
from his nineteen seventy seven album Greatest Hits, etc. For
those of you listening on the audio side playing us
out tonight is Paul Simon with slip slide in the way.

(01:39:32):
And on that note, like I said, I'm beaf of
Commissioner Voness and producer Victor. I Mike Cologne and we
will see you next time. Take everyone every weekend.

Speaker 6 (01:39:44):
Slip sliding way, slip slide and a way you know
the new destination, moy slip slideing way. I know man.

(01:40:05):
He came from my hometown. He wore his passion for
his woman, lack of thorny crown, He said, the Lord,
I live in feet, my love for you, sore powering.
I'm afraid that I will disappear. Slip sliding away, slip

(01:40:34):
sliding away, you know the near destination the boy slip
sliding way, and I know him became away. These are

(01:40:55):
the very words she uses to describe the life. She said,
a good day he ain't got noise, she said, her
bad days when I lie in bed and think of
things that might.

Speaker 3 (01:41:13):
Have been.

Speaker 6 (01:41:15):
Slip sliding way, slip sliding aod way, you know the
nearing destination the boy slip sliding way, did I know?

(01:41:36):
F threw out a sun. He longed to tell him
all the reasons for the things he'd done.

Speaker 3 (01:41:46):
He came a.

Speaker 6 (01:41:47):
Long way just to explain. He kissed his boys, he
lay sleeping, Then he turned around and had.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
It home again.

Speaker 6 (01:42:01):
His slip slid slip sliding away. You know the new destination, mois,
slip sliding way. God only knows. God makes his plan

(01:42:34):
the informations, and a lad moved to the model man.
We're working our jobs, collector. Believe we're gliding now the
hideway When in fairy with slip sliding ways, slip sliding way,

(01:42:59):
slip slide it away, you know the near destination more
slip sliding way, slip sliding way, slip sliding away. You

(01:43:20):
know the near destination more slip sliding way. M m
mmm hmmm.

Speaker 5 (01:43:31):
Oh I

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Ruthie's Table 4

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 376: The Best of The Bravest: Commissioner Tom Von Essen (Volume 75)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Ruthie's Table 4

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

Episode 376: The Best of The Bravest: Commissioner Tom Von Essen (Volume 75)

On Purpose with Jay Shetty