Honoring the Snyderverse | Missing Frames #0.89: Celebrating Superman

Can you love both Zack Snyder’s MAN OF STEEL and James Gunn’s SUPERMAN? While online discourse often paints fans as divided, there are many who appreciate both interpretations of the iconic hero. In this episode of Missing Frames’ Celebrating Superman series, Shawn is joined by fellow Nerd Party members Matthew Rushing and John Mills—two longtime Superman fans who enjoy both Snyder’s and Gunn’s visions of the character. Together, they explore what makes each take so compelling, and why tearing down others for their personal preferences runs counter to everything Superman represents.

HOSTS
Shawn Eastridge
John Mills
Matthew Rushing

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the net Paalty.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to another celebrating Superman between takes edition
of Missing Frames. I am your host, Sean Eastridge, normally
on Missing Frame because we watch all the movies we
should have seen by this point in our lives. But
twenty twenty five is indeed the year of Superman. And
for those of you who know me, you know I
am a massive Superman fan, and I've basically hijacked my

(00:38):
podcast as an excuse to just rant and rave about
that love. But today I am here because I, as
you may know, am not the biggest Zack Snyder fan
in the universe, and I wanted I recognize that that
may be a fault of mine, and I wanted to

(00:59):
open the floor were to individuals who are genuine fans,
to give them the microphone and let them celebrate what
mister Snyder has brought to this world. And so I've
brought none other than two fellow Nerd Party members. We've
got Matt Rushing over here. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Matt, Well, thank you. Sean up so glad to be here.
And you know, admitting that you have a problem is
the first on the road to recovery. And so I'm
glad that we started this podcast on just a great start,
and so I really appreciate that. And I'm so glad
that who's going to be backing me up, which is
a man who had a shall we say, spiritual conversion

(01:42):
to the good side, which was through our show, Snyder
Cuts found out that he was actually a big fan
of Zack Snyder.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, you know what, that's true. On the whole, I
did become a big fan of Zack Snyder. I know
a lot of people that hate a lot of his movies.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
I do not. I hate the Rebel Moon movie.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
So sir, but yeah, that that that that's.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Beside the point.

Speaker 4 (02:11):
That's that's he got it out of his system. Let's
move on.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Let's but wait a second. Who is this this other
mystery man who's speaking? Who is who are you? You
tell us you are ready?

Speaker 3 (02:23):
I am John Mills long absence from this podcast my voice.
The people have cried out. They have been longing for
me to return, simply because they know that I will
find some way to drag Brad Gullickson during this podcast.
I will look for the opportunity and I will take it. Brad,
you are on notice. I'm coming for you. But he

(02:44):
and Brad would be like, what, why does John want
to take a shot at me?

Speaker 2 (02:47):
He knows why? So I think that he knows why.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
No, I I did, Matt and I I I'm really
interested to have this discussion, Sean, just because of the
fact that I made no secret of how much I
hated Batman versus Superman in the theaters.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
You were the first Stilson I heard from about that movie.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah you, You, Me and the Immortal Cregula actually recorded
like a two and a half hour podcast, Oh remember
words with Nerds where we absolutely went hog wild on it.
And then years later I watched the Ultimate Edition and.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
I was like, oh, actually, actually I kind of like this.
This is pretty good. Like it is.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
It's kind of crazy because very frequently, especially in the
era of useless extended editions being released on disc, like
I had sort of like slept on the Ultimate Edition,
like yeah, whatever, it's thirty minutes longer, geez, who needs that?
And then I watched the Ultimate Edition, I was like, oh,
this actually changed the movie for the better.

Speaker 4 (03:49):
Who knew?

Speaker 3 (03:50):
And so I think that the Warner Brothers execs that
released that theatrical edition, but I get ahead of myself.
I get ahead of myself. Here we're here to talk
about Zack Snyder specifically and how he handled super So.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
This is and this is also an interesting intersection because
I think right now, as with most things in life,
there is the Internet seeks to destroy everyone, essentially, but
one of the things it definitely has an interest in
destroying is I guess fandoms in general. There is this
pitting against each other, which in some ways is you know,

(04:25):
there are bad actors out there who would like to
tear each other apart, but there is this vibe of like, oh,
if you've liked one, if you're a fan of the
Snyder verse, you have to on principal hate James Gunn
and vice versa. And both of you are proof to
the contrary, proof that this does not have to be
the world we live. And you have both enjoyed, and

(04:49):
I dare say loved, at least in Matt's case, both
interpretations of the Man of Steel. You've loved Zack Snyder's take.
But also, Matt, I was genuinely so surprized and pleased
to hear that you loved James guns Superman. John. I
know you were a little bit more, not Luke Warren,
but not as big of a fan, but enjoyed it.

Speaker 4 (05:09):
Yes, I did enjoy it very much.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
I actually it was one of the rare movies that
my wife actually came and saw in the movie theater
with me, which I want to say, Superman is such
a landmark character that even a non movie fan like
my wife was never big into like going to the movies,
Superman got her into the movie theater, Like she came

(05:32):
to the movie theater just because of Superman.

Speaker 4 (05:35):
She later confessed.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Also David corn Sweat in Particulars, which was at tracks. Well,
I looked at it, and I said, that's great, because
I really I was here for Rachel Brosnahan, So I
don't know that's great.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
I thought you were gonna say same.

Speaker 4 (05:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
No, After after decades of marriage, there's an honesty that
grows between each other where it's like, I think that
guy's out.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
I thought the lead actress was cute, cool.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
We're both happy.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
It's all good. That's the magic of movies.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
But Matt, I remember, like early on, you know, when
when the nerd party first kind of came into its
own and we joined up. I remember knowing you and
knowing you as the Zack Snyder Superman fan and being
a Superman fan myself, just like like, I think we
were the two big Superman guys in this group. But

(06:22):
where did that love come from? How long have you
been a Superman fan? What made you a fan?

Speaker 1 (06:28):
You know, it's so interesting because I'm famous for not
loving the Christopher Reeves Superman movie. I think that it is,
it is good, but in some ways for me, it
was a little bit there. There was a corniness that
I never really gravitated towards. And so but one of

(06:53):
one of the things is, you know, I'd read some
of the Superman comics growing up a little bit, and
then once the New fifty two hit, I really dove
in because it was this new starting point, and so
I started reading a ton of comics and Superman in
general as well in that and I love the character though,

(07:13):
I love you know, what he stands for, this whole
idea that he's this character who has all of this
power and what does he choose to do with it,
you know, is to be a good man. You know,
he's just a guy trying to do the right thing right,
which you know, they talk about in BVS. Right, maybe
he's not a god, you know, maybe he's just a
guy trying to do the right thing, which is exactly

(07:34):
what he was, right. And so I think the thing
that I gravitated towards with Man of Steel specifically when
it first came out, was this idea is that Zack
Snyder clearly had a question, and that question was, what
happens if this type of person comes to our world?

Speaker 4 (07:57):
Right, right?

Speaker 1 (07:58):
How do people actually react in the world we actually
live in. How would people interact with this character? What
way they think about him? And the James Gunn question
is totally different, which is I'm going to drop you
in their world. No, it's not our world, it's their world.
And so those two questions are incredible venues for talking

(08:21):
then about Superman in very different ways. And that's what
comics have done, you know, ad nauseum with the character.
We continue to reinvent and reinterpret and and look at
through different lenses across time. You know, the Silver Age
Superman is different from the Superman that was created by
the Shusters, and it's different from what John Byrne did.

(08:43):
It's different when what the guys did in New fifty two.
It's different than Rebirth, I mean all of these, but
it's also the same character through line. And what struck
me about the Snyder version and the character was it
truly the way Cavill plays it is a man who

(09:04):
truly does want to be able to utilize his powers
for good, but he lives in a world that really
doesn't want to have anything to do with him. And
John and I talked about this years ago on an
episode of The six point two Club, But I think
the difference was is that Superman hadn't actually changed. The
Superman was actually the same character there he always was.

(09:27):
But what change is the world? And what changes the
questions that we would ask of a character. Nobody in
the comics and the Silver Age was asking Superman whether
he should do an act because it was political or not.
Nobody even thought that way, right, But the world had
completely changed and everything has become political, and everything has
become something for somebody to be outraged about. And so

(09:49):
when you put a character like that into our modern world,
I think Snyder really put his finger on the pulse. Yeah,
And then you know, BVS asked the question, which is
what happens when people might possibly be ready to start
to accept this character. But then there's somebody who is like, Nope,

(10:11):
this guy's got to go. And it's from both sides, right,
It's it's Lex and it's Bruce, and they're both thinking
the same thing, and they actually both want the same thing.
And what happens is is through the end of that
the whole series, all the way through into Justice League, right,
Superman slowly, because of his innate goodness, begins to change

(10:31):
the world. And that is Superman, that is the core
of who he is. It is a very different story
than we've ever seen before because we're literally watching him
from day one all the way through to you know,
whatever day it is by the end of Justice League.

Speaker 4 (10:47):
I mean that's actually just the run time of Justice League.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
But but just quickly, like think about that, you know,
even James Gunn Superman, right, we start where he's already
been on the job doing this for three years, and
so the only time that we have seen on film
Superman as a character literally stepping into the boots for
the first day, and in his first day he has

(11:19):
to fight Zod. He doesn't have any help and he's
got to figure this out all on his own. That again,
like everything that he does there is so intentional, it's
so interesting, and the character himself, there's no change to
his character and his goodness and all of those things
that the change is the circumstances. The change is literally

(11:44):
just the world we live in and it being darker world,
a world that's more cynical, a world that is, like
you said earlier, it's divided, it's ready to hate anything.
And yeah, I just it's something that's just a responded to.
I thought it was a beautiful way to talk about
the question.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
So I'll sort of I'll come at it from the
angle that got me to Man of Steel. Sean, You
and I we saw Man of Steel in the movie
theater together.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
That was our first movie that we ever saw together.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
John and I remember both of us walking out and
we were like, okay, sure, you know it was like
it was And then.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
I really enjoyed it the first time I saw it.

Speaker 3 (12:23):
And then I remembered Ritchie coming out and making fun
of Zod losing control with the I beams just going ah.
And he was actually wearing a red cape with a
bizarro s on his chest to watch the movie because
he's Richie and that's what he does. Yes, And I

(12:45):
still remember standing in the hallway. It was the first
time I ever met him, and I remember thinking to myself,
I'm gonna like this guy.

Speaker 4 (12:51):
Like this guy like he is committed.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
I like this this Sean guy not so much, but
him and Sean I'll tolerate.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
With Man of Steel, well, I was sort of I
wasn't like, I didn't hate it, I didn't like I
was like walking the middle.

Speaker 4 (13:05):
Path with it for a long time.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
And what brought me around to it actually was And
I think this sort of like tax on to what
you're saying, Mat is that it's a and I hate
to phrase it this way because it sounds like such
a it's such a weirdo film critic way to say it,
But it's like it's a post nine to eleven superhero
movie where there is a resonance sort of thing where

(13:29):
like we all were forced to sort of give up
the idea of a fantasy world suddenly, and it's like,
and so it makes sense that Superman's in there. But
what I think Snyder did that is really subversively brilliant
in Man of Steel is the entire thing is about

(13:50):
the desire of a cynical and divided society to paint
every person who was a stranger with the same brush.

Speaker 4 (14:02):
Zod and.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
Cal they're both Kryptonians, but the whole emphasis of it,
and this is especially important in the light of the
post nine to eleven thing. Zod is the terrorist and
they keep painting Superman with the same brush. And there's
one moment that I think is particularly beautiful, and it's
Christopher Maloney. I forget what his character name is in

(14:26):
the moment, but it's after they've been shooting at him
and he's also fought you know, Zod's people and everything
like that, and he walks out and everybody's about to
shoot at Superman again, and Henry Cavill, you know, as
Superman is standing there, he's got to look like real,
we're gonna do this again, and Maloney's character says, hold
your fire. This man is not our enemy. Yeah, And

(14:47):
sort of like that's the scene that I think unlocked
it for me to go from lukewarm to actually liking
the movie, because I suddenly understood what Snyder was really
doing was he was turning around and pointing at a
society that was really had fallen into the habit of
looking at the stranger as enemy first, not friend first.

Speaker 4 (15:13):
And I think it's a really.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
Subversive and beautiful sort of thing that he did where
he used this platform to do that, and well, and
you know, I think that's what unlocks it so and
I think.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
You saying that John is the thing that when when
when Colonel Hardy, you know, realizes that this man is
not her enemy, it really explains and what you just met,
that was his name.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
John, that did I'm not a real fan. That's well,
I'm not a fan. I've just seen the movie.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
I didn't know it.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
But that's the thing that helps you understand why Jonathan
Kent is so fearful for his son. He knows most
likely nobody can hurt his son, but he also is
afraid what people will try to do to his son, right,
And I think that you know, so much got made

(16:03):
of you know, Jonathan and the way he gave advice
to to Clark in that film, and what it is.
I don't understand how people couldn't get this is about
a father who truly loves his child and is is
fearful of the world that that they're in and what

(16:24):
will happen to him if people find out who he
is before he's ready basically too to be able to
defend himself. And I think that there's something incredibly beautiful
about that. And as you were talking about John, I mean,
you know, if you want to get super political about that,
there's all sorts of ways that you could go with
that idea of you know, a child being taken from

(16:47):
their parents and all that kind of stuff. But at
the same time that Jonathan Ken is the same one
who tells him, he's like, good man, are bad. You're
going to change the world, and it's your choice how
you change it. And and that's the beauty is that
that Clark ends up choosing I'm going to do the
next right thing, regardless of the cost, because that's who

(17:10):
I want to be.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
See I see, I see Jonathan Kent as slightly different
in Man of Steel. I understand, you know, the fearful
of the world thing. But what I think it is,
what what sort of unlocks John This version of Jonathan
Kent for me is that Jonathan Kent wants Clark to
define himself in his own terms. He's sort of he's

(17:32):
sort of being like a great dad where he's you know,
he knows as soon as Clark goes out there, and
like the powers are like, what what have you?

Speaker 2 (17:41):
You know, Clark, you decide.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
Who you want to be, because the minute you step
out there, the world is going to want to decide
who you are. Yeah, And that's sort of I think
that's probably a sort of a thing that every parent
has to like sort of like get their kid ready for,
which is like be you.

Speaker 4 (17:57):
Don't be what the world wants you to be. Be you.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
And the thing is that goes against that that Jorelle
of you know, Marlon Brando from Krypton that we're used
to where it's like, you know, he's immediately imbuing with
his son, you are going to go there.

Speaker 4 (18:15):
And you're going to be God yea a good one?
Why not?

Speaker 3 (18:18):
And it's like, you know, I think that I understand though,
I understand why Jonathan was so Jonathan took me a
long time to get to that point. And I think
part of it is that Snyder, this is where I'll
throw you a bone. Sean Snyder seems to have trouble

(18:39):
balancing when to be subtle and when to be over
the top. And it's sort of there's a give and
take there in the movie that eventually like sort of
like meters itself out, but at the same time, like
he goes gonzo in certain scenes, and then like the
Jonathan Ken scenes are like really restrained and you're like, wait,
I don't like you can't gearshift in time to keep

(19:00):
up with it.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
You're like, what is happening?

Speaker 3 (19:02):
Like it's sort of like square emotional response to the movie,
So I understand why it takes a little bit of
time and it you know once you get there though,
And but that's the thing is like I can I
can understand somebody hearing me talk and being like you're
just suffering Stockholm syndrome.

Speaker 4 (19:17):
You've seen the movie so many times you just you
just convinced yourself you want to like it.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
But it's like, no, I actually had a legitimate moment
that unlocked it for me. And contributing to that as
well was somebody pointing out online and then I looked
for it and I saw it and I was like,
oh my gosh, you really did it. And it's that
scene where he flies down to the world. I don't
know what the world dominant whatever it's called, the world.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
I call it the dubstep machine.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yes, that's very Yes, there are some sound design decisions
that I understand were difficult for people to get to.

Speaker 4 (19:51):
It makes sense.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
But when he goes to the one that's down in
India and he looks up and there are a couple
of frames where uh, the music swells and his face
looks like Christopher Reeve. Like that's a beautiful Like that's
one of the most beautiful tributes I've ever seen to
another actor in a film, where and a signal to

(20:12):
the audience is like, this is the moment, this is
where he's become the hero. Yeah, like he's finally figured
out his place. Yeah, but like, you know, but the
thing is, you know, if you'll give me permission, Sean,
this is your show and you're letting us ramble. But
I want to I want to reflect it back to
you because the big thing everybody seems to still be
hung up on is snapping Zod's neck.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, well this is this is that's one of the things.
And you know, I was going to bring that up
as I think the two big things in this movie
that people harp on as the easy I guess the
easy things to beat up on is you know, one
the Jonathan Kent death scene, which is the thing that
people complain about a lot, and then the general Zodd

(20:55):
next snapping scene, and ironically both those scenes need either
of those scenes. I you know, on paper, it's easy
for me to jump on that bandwagon and be like, yeah,
I'm not a big fan, but neither of those scenes
for me personally are deal breaking moments. You know. So
as somebody who is historically and actively not a fan,

(21:18):
I think it's funny that those are the moments people
complain about the most that I don't have the biggest
issue with. I think the next snapping scene for me,
in that moment, I think I understand what Snyder was
trying to do In that moment. I remember seeing the
movie and the first time, not really like not thinking

(21:40):
sitting there thinking like, oh my god, Superman killed somebody,
Like how deeply offensive to me. I think I understood
killing the guy right right, like I.

Speaker 4 (21:51):
Just want to lay low, buddy.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
I understand why that is not a beloved moment, but
for me it was not. It was a moment that
I understood what Snyder was trying to say and what
he was trying to do.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
Let me offer this, though, do you think it's simply that.
And I'm not trying to be like reductive or anything,
okay by saying simply, but do you think it's something
where comic book fans, especially at the height of Marvel's
you know, Rain just starting and everything like that. Yeah,
comic book fans weren't used to being put in that situation.

Speaker 4 (22:32):
We all accepted.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Villain will get away, villain will be trapped, villain will
come back, and well.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
You know what's interesting though, is like, you know, Marvels
as bright and happy as those films are, and certainly
in comparison to what Snyder was doing. You know, I
think the funny thing is all of the heroes in
the Marvel films kill people left and right, you know, like,
and I think it's done in a less amotionally meaningful

(23:01):
way than it is in Man of Steel. Like it's
like a moment in Man of Steel, whereas like, yeah,
in Iron Man, it's just like, oh, these guys are terrorists,
so I'm going to shoot them and blow them up
and captain America. It's fighting Nazis so well.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
But but but I think it's it's it's abstracted. Yes,
I think that the whole idea of snapping Zod's neck
is such an intimate way of killing somebody. Yeah, his
hands are actually on him. It's not like, oh, I
blew him away with my laser vision. It's I, I
literally severed your neck. Yes, Like that's a really intense way.

(23:39):
And they're talking during it, so like it's not during
the height of passion sort of.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, it's it's it's definitely it's a moment that we
sit with. It's not a it's an emotional beat in
the film, and it's treated as an emotional beat in
the film. It's treated with the emotional intensity I think
that Snyder was going for. And I think, you know,
with the Marvel films, it's more like an Indiana Jones thing,
where it's like or Star Wars, it's like we're killed.
The bad guys are just kind of like, yeah, there's
there's no depth to it. It's just they're there to

(24:04):
be shot. You know, they're there. Yes, we're not meant
to think about it, and uh, you know that. I
think Superman and Batman, weirdly enough, are the two heroes
that are like they they have the no kill rule
really attached to them more than other euros because it
does well, it because well and that's not an insult,
that's like I think that is, you know, it is

(24:25):
a component of and so like you know, the Dark
Knight really hones in on not killed, you know what
I mean, and Superman as well. But the irony is
that I think, you know, Superman has killed in the comics,
like it is part of his history. It's something that
in general, I think it's not it's the focus has

(24:46):
been more like Superman chooses not to kill. And I
think what Snyder was trying to say in that moment
is like this is possibly the moment that that was
that moment for Clark like making that decision, and I think,
go ahead, Matt.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
I think I think part of that is is that
what Clark is doing in that moment is the cost
benefit analysis. What am I supposed to do? Because we
you know, I mean, this has been hashed out many times.
But you know, if he he has nothing to do
with this this person, you know, there's no way to

(25:22):
send him into the phantom zone again, there's no way
to keep him from continuing his rampage because he's going
to continue. He said, I you know, you die or
I die. That's how this ends, you know, and so
and we The other thing that I think Snyder does
a great job of, which a lot of people hated

(25:45):
about the film, right, but the amount of destruction that
you see in the fight between these two characters, and
there again the question that Snyder's asking is what happens
when God's fight on our world like this? Well, we
get destruction like that. And and so that's I think
again the cost benefit analysis that Clark's doing is like

(26:08):
this keeps going and a lot more people are gonna
get hurt because I'm the only one here to stop
him or I stop it now, and I take the
hit personally. And I think that's a really interesting thing.
And I mean even Gun Superman, right that you get
that little moment where Peacemaker's talking about you know Superman
and how he's like, oh yeah, Superman, won't you know

(26:30):
kill unmost it's absolutely necessary, like making fun of him
that you know, that would be something he would do
at the last resort instead of just the first thing.
And and so like even you know, Gun Superman has
you know, he's very much going to try and do
all he can to not have to resort to that,
but I mean he was going to kill the Kaiju
if he had to, he just wanted to do it
more humanely. So I mean I think.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
That gun is Also he's come out in interviews and
said like he's not as married to the no kill rules. Exactly, yeah, exactly,
so you know which is fair, which is fair? And
again like bringing it back even more, this is not
super recently. And what scares me is that now you know,
nineteen eighty six is almost forty years ago, which means

(27:15):
I am almost forty years ago. But you know, John
Burns take his last issue before he passed everything off
to Mike Carlin and the rest of the supercrew was
Superman executing Kryptonians with crypt not like you know, a
brutal next nap, but with kryptonite. But like it's it's

(27:37):
something I think people it's people are too quick to
say like Superman doesn't kill, therefore that moment is wrong.
But I think if you look at the comics, they
have addressed this. They have had Superman do this, and
then they've had Superman kind of reflect on it and
be like, well wait a second, I don't like that.
I don't want to do that, and I think that's
what Snyder was attempting in Man of Steel, and I

(27:57):
think audiences in general were probably the reason they were
so put off by It is the idea, the I think,
the the widely accepted belief. It's like, wait a second,
Superman doesn't do that?

Speaker 3 (28:08):
Well, I think I think I think what's missing that
makes it tough for audiences is they want they want
Superman to have a long, teary scene afterward stating unequivocally
his feelings why he'll never hear weary.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, but this was a once in a lifetime moment.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
I swear I'll never kill again my hammer? Can you kill?

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah? Well, can you kill Zod again? Like, well he can?

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Well apparently Tatman versus Superman.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah, it's true. Yeah, but yeah, so this is this
is all to say, Like so, Matt and you know,
John to a lesser extent, but I remember the frustration
of feeling like people didn't like Man of Steel and
I was like, why is everyone so so harsh on this?
And I'm sure that was super frustrating Matt as somebody
who genuinely loved the film. That was amplified when Batman v.

(29:03):
Superman came out where, I think, and that really I
think was a result of Marvel was really they were
on the upswing and they kind of dominated the spear,
and I think Zack Snyder doubled down similarly to Tim
Burton with Batman Returns versus Batman. I think Batman v.
Superman is far more of a Zack Snyder film than

(29:25):
Man of Steel was. That's not a knock against Man
of Steel, but I think Snyder was more indulgence. Sounds
like that sounds like a backhanded thing, but I think
it was more of a like, all right, you proved
you can make the movie and make the money. Therefore
we'll give you more freedom. And people really didn't respond
to it. It was a really visceral.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
Myself, Matt, Matt, please give me the space to relay
the story. I love to relay where Matt loved it.
This was a the theastrical of Batman v.

Speaker 4 (29:58):
Superman.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
He was over the moon about it, and Sean you
were there. I was not.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
And there was a very famous moment where I kind
of kept ragging on it while Matt's talking to me,
and you know, he's trying to like present his point
and I'm just I'm just hammering the movie, and Matt's
words were, if we're gonna remain It was along these lines.
I can't remember exactly where's, but it was along lines
of like, if we're going to remain friends, we just
can't talk about this anymore. And like I was like, wow,

(30:26):
really okay, and it was it was that it got
to that level. But the thing is I was not
letting up on like the curb stomping. And I want
to say, as we enter this phase of the conversation,
I still hate the theatrical cut. I think the theatrical
cut is still a mess, and I think it's because

(30:46):
they made him cut it down because they panicked because
they didn't want to release a three hour movie. And
I think that as a result, all of the stuff,
not not everything. I still nuclear bizarro doomsday still irritates
me a little bit, but I think that a lot

(31:06):
of the logic leaps and emotional beats that I was
really irked by in the theatrical the Ultimate Edition. I
was like, oh, he did think this through. They just
made him come in with a you know, a blunt
axe and just hack this thing up to make as
short a run time as possible. Because they wanted a

(31:27):
billion dollars as well.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, yeah, BVS is it's an interesting it's an interesting thing,
and Matt, I'll let you get your two cents in.
It's an interesting thing because I think on many levels
this is I feel like in some ways, both Justice
League and even the Snyder cut of Justice League and BBS,
we can't say are fully Zack Snyder's vision because BVS

(31:51):
comes out of I think a push from the studio
to say, we need to get to Justice League as
quickly as possible, because Marvel has done Avengers that made
a billion dollars, and we want a billion dollars. So
this movie has to include teases for the Justice League.
We need to get there. Let's do it in two
or three movies versus four or five. And I think

(32:13):
they also panicked because I don't think Warner Brothers expected
Man of Steel to be so divisive. I think they
like they were like, we're you know, we're excited about
Snyder's take, and we're gonna we're gonna see this through.
And I think BVS is also their willingness to kind
of throw Snyder under the bus with that was proof

(32:35):
that they kind of were like you know what, maybe
this was not the creative direction we wanted to go in.
So you have the studio, who, in general, I think
we're supportive of Snyder, but you sense their reluctance to
back home a little bit. So I'm sure that was
frustrating for him. But then also at the same time,
they're saying, not only do we not fully support this

(32:57):
this version that you're doing, we want you to shoehorn
in everything, all the teases for future films so that
we can compete with Marvel. And I'm sure you know,
as a creator, I'm sure that was extraordinarily annoying, but
go ahead.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
I mean it's I think it's one of those places
where and honestly, you know, I think we've all seen
this in the last you know, fifteen to twenty years, right,
is that studios have been so greedy that it has
gotten in the way of the creativity that we give

(33:36):
to creatives. And the studio is on high at that point,
we're very much in favor of we have to do
whatever is making the most money, and the most money
meant that you just then had to copy what somebody
else was doing instead of charting your own path, so
that because nobody needs the same thing twice. And I

(33:59):
mean even Marvel ended up running into that problem, right.
I mean, I think once the Guardians of the Galaxy
came out, the formula became that an iron Man and
everything had to fit into that. I mean, look at
what happened to the thor films, right, And so even
they ran into this issue and it really hurt and

(34:20):
it still continues to hurt Marvel Studios.

Speaker 4 (34:22):
And so whereas.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
What made Guardians such a hit, right was that James
Gunn did his own creative thing, and that was his genius, right,
And the genius then of Snyder was to do his
own thing. And if the studio hadn't meddled with BBS,
it had put out the three hour cut, it wouldn't

(34:47):
have gotten I think panned the way it did, because
people would have not felt like John did walking out
of the theater. They would have felt like I did,
where I.

Speaker 4 (34:56):
Could fill in.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
I was filling in all the gaps, and I know
John could do the same thing. He was just frustrated
that the movie felt more Frankenstein than it needed to.
And he's completely right. It didn't need to feel like
that because Snyder had put everything you needed in that
movie for it to make sense, and the same thing
he had done when it came to what he wanted
to do with his Justice League films. The guy had

(35:19):
a plan, and you know, if we had just let
him do his plan, I mean, I think we all
saw in Justice League, it's like it what he's building
up to is something we had literally we've never seen
on film. We'd only seen in graphic novels what he
was trying to build his And so, I.

Speaker 3 (35:39):
Mean, I think what gets lost in the shuffle as
well is when they first announced Justice League, they said
it was gonna be a two part movie. Yeah, and
I think he did with Zack Snyder's Justice League, that
cut of it, I know exactly where they were going
to stop it. I was like, oh, that would have
been the end of part one and Superman would have
been nowhere in part one. Yeah, and until the end
where they see the little Holograham of him and it's

(36:01):
like we got to bring him back, and then boom
you get the credits. You're like, right, yay, Okay, they're
gonna do this. And then at the beginning of the
second film everything goes wrong. But then Superman is back
and the heroes win at the end of the second one,
there is no way, like there's almost I think that
somebody like Snyder is going to wind up becoming a
bit of a dinosaur in this sense that until and

(36:24):
unless audiences become patient again. Yeah, agreed, meaning the death
of streaming as we understand it. Somebody like Snyder is
not going to survive that, at least for the theatrical experience,
because I don't think he's capable of the quick hit.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
He can't like.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
I would love to issue Zack Snyder a challenge, mister Snyder,
if you're listening.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
I would love Snyder loves myself, He's a huge fan
of He's a big phase.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
What did Sean think of a sucker punch? I think
that he uh. I would love to issue him the
challenge of saying, I want to see a ninety three
minute movie including credits, and I.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Want to do that.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
I think, yeah, and that in the interesting I want
him to.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Think about his short film that he did, and both
you and I praised that short film for the way
in which it was able to tell a cohesive, gripping,
riveting story.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
Which story? Which one is this it's.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
Oh gosh, let me look it up real quick.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
But I mean, I forget that, I forget the name
of it. Is it an early Is it an early
early film? It's not early.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
It actually happens after the debacle with Justice League, and
it's Snow Steam Iron.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yes, Snow Steam Iron is very good.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
It's I mean, gosh that the thing is four minutes long.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yeah, so he is not capable of doing it.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
So, but all this to say, like, I think the
other most interesting thing about Snyder's obviously his biggest inspiration
is Frank Miller, right, and that kind of take on
the characters, right. But at the same time, I think

(38:19):
one of one of his and the thing I think
he understood about Superman, right, is that and why I
think he gets Superman is that Superman is the character
who could bring Batman from the brink.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah. That's one of the things I enjoy about Snyder's
take is the idea that Batman is in a dark
place and then through his conflict with Superman is kind
of like he has his redemption through his right relationship
with Superman.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
It's straight up Jesus metaphor, right. The whole idea of
that that he dies, and the impact of his death
is what wakes Bruce up from the life that he's lived.
Twenty years of Gotham. We know what you know, people's
word is worth. We know what happens. We know that

(39:14):
the criminals just keep coming back and nothing changes. But
to see a man be able to do what he did,
who should be and vulnerable to death, be willing to die,
It's just there's such a beautiful thing in that. And
then to to then bring all those characters together with

(39:35):
you know, Aquaman and Flash and all that you know,
and and then of two, I mean, you think all
the way towards the very end of Zack Snyder's Justice League,
the person everybody dies, and then what does Barry do?
He breaks the rule but it's the right time to
break the rule. And and so still.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
Wish we could have s Flashpoint, but the real the real
Flash movie, where like because in Justice League he breaks
the rule at the right time for the right reasons.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
You know, you have to break the rule.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
Then, just like the end of of Superman where he
turns the world back.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
I wasn't gonna say it, but I'm glad you did.
But of course, of course That's my only complaint is
that the Flash didn't run around the world and turn
it back.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
Well, he ran around the universe. That's a pretty impressive feat.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
But I think that I would have loved to see
that flashpoint because then he goes forward and he makes
that decision for the wrong reasons, and that now the
thing is, I'll wait in here. It is a little
bit too stuffed, like what we've talked about that, you know, Sean,
you brought it up. Where's like he was asked throw
all of this stuff in there. There are still things

(40:51):
in the ultimate edition I would still xcize because I
think that they as much as I might love them
and as cool as I think they are, I would,
in all honesty have excised his nightmare dream where the
Flash comes back and is talking to him and like
it seems to have nothing else to do with the

(41:12):
rest of the movie.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
I'm like, you could cut that out. Nobody's going to
miss it.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
I will still make fun of as we did back
in the day of you know, uh, Diana reading the
email from Bruce and I think you were the I
think I think you were the one that was like
who reads an email like this?

Speaker 4 (41:31):
And I was like who writes an email like this?

Speaker 2 (41:33):
And it was building suspense. You know, email reading is
a boring test, so you've gotta you've got to spice
it up a little bit.

Speaker 4 (41:43):
Well, I mean, honestly, at this point in history, it's
like who sends emails? You know, heart sign, emoji, emoji,
lightning bolt.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
Fish's trying to tell me about Aquamann and the flesh.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Okay, well, part of the Nightmare stuff and the Justice
League teases and BVS. There's a part of me that
wonders if maybe those things feel out of place because
of everything that ultimately happened with this franchise and kind
of the the Warner Brothers sort of and it was
a combination, right, It was Warner Brothers sort of saying like, ah,

(42:21):
we you know what, we changed our minds, we don't
want to do this. But also, you know everything that
happened to Zack Snyder personally where he had to take away,
you know, it had to step away. But I you know,
everything about this franchise ultimately had to be compromised creatively,
and there are things where you look at it and
you say, like would that have worked better? Like would
that Nightmare sugence have worked better if we did get

(42:42):
a Justice League Part two of sure that, you know,
like there are teases that are set up that ultimately
aren't really paid off in the way I think Snyder intended.
So in some it's you know, it's tough because you
look at this and ultimately you're saying, like we're watching
almost you know, Man of Steel is maybe the only

(43:02):
quote unquote pure product in that, like he had the
full support and backing of the studio, whereas BVS and
Justice League and you know, honestly, to be fair, like,
you know, he did get his ultimate edition, he did
get his Snyder cut, so there was a level of
support there where they were willing to kind of throw
him a bone. But even with that, you know, there

(43:23):
was there were there were still compromises.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
This is this is also where I think, you know,
it's so fascinating because going back, Matt and I also
did to rewatch the MCU movies, and a lot of
flaws that I had overlooked over time because I was
enjoying it so much in the moment really became apparent
as I went back through, and what I realized is
what is weird is people were more forgiving of some

(43:50):
of the clunkiness and flawed storytelling and execution with the MCU,
because they made the Thorn movie come first, and they
made uh, the Iron Man movie come first. They made
like basically with Snyder's universe, we got our iron Man,
but then we got Avengers. Yeah, and then we got

(44:13):
a Thor movie, and then we got a Captain America
And it's like, no, they like they completely borked the
whole well.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
And it's interesting because you know, Wonder Woman was very
well received and did really really well, and then Aquamant,
like to a lesser extent, was well received but also
made a ton of money.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
So it is like, it is interesting one that made
a billion dollars.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
Yes, yeah, that's a completely garbage movie, which is what
I've I've heard people, you know, people have said they're
not big fans of it, but I you know, I
think there is there is a Oddly enough, the proof
is there that Warner Brothers was just.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
They got too greedy and they didn't take their time
and would they would these films have been more successful?
Would Justice League have been more successful if we had?
I Wonder Woman did come out before, but like if
Aquaman had come out before and things.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
But then they would have been accused of imitating Marvel
too much, fair enough, and it's like it's one of
those things. I think they were just basically caught in
a box.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
That yeah, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Speaker 3 (45:15):
And I think that what they lacked in all honesty
was everybody loves to give Figy praise, but it's I
think his name was Ike Pearl Mutter over at Marvel
Studios or whatever. Like he was he was I think
like FIGI reported to him at the beginning, and it's
like during Marvel's like real formative stage. Yeah, he was

(45:37):
the guy that was like he was the old industry
guy that was like, no, look this is how we're
going to do this, because this is how.

Speaker 4 (45:43):
It's going to work, and everything like that. If I'm
getting his name wrong.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
I will happily leave it in because I love when
you're wrong and people get upset about it.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
Well, you know, the thing is, at least I'm not
as wrong as Brad when he's talking about Superman three.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
No, that's wrong.

Speaker 4 (46:00):
That was the important thing there. See, I told you
and I took the shot. Bang.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, I do have to say too. One one of
the most interesting things about this and uh, you know, Sean,
we had were teasing before we even started really recording this.
This whole idea is that John and I both liked
Snyder's take, and we both liked guns take and that
that were like unicorns.

Speaker 4 (46:25):
So you're welcome.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
But the most interesting thing to me about Guns Superman
is that he asks many of the same questions of
Superman that Snyder does, but from the different perspective of
it being within their universe, right, and so things look
different and they get answered differently. But I thought a

(46:49):
lot of that was really interesting because really, you know,
Lex's motivations are the exact same motivations that we have,
and bvs. He hates Superman and he hates that he exists,
and he hates that he's taking away from humanity, and
really it's just a ball all about him feeling inadequate.
You know, he measures himself against Superman and realizes he's limp.

(47:10):
And so that's the thing that I think is so
fascinating is that really the discussion in the films and
the questions that we're asking of the character are not
all that different. They're actually very similar, and even the
plans in and of themselves are have a lot of similarities, right,
I mean, you know, Lex is willing to destroy the

(47:34):
world to get rid of Superman and Superman from Gun. Well,
Lex and BVS is willing to basically do the same
thing by setting Doomsday loose as long as it means
that Superman will die and so and thinking he can
control you know, doomsday and so. I mean, I just

(47:54):
I find that really interesting that I haven't heard a
ton of people really talk about that idea. But yeah,
a lot of what Gun does and a lot of
what Snyder does are similar. The framework is different because
the core question is different, and therefore it allows the
answer to look different and feel different.

Speaker 3 (48:17):
Yeah, you know, I think that I think that probably
gets to because you know, talking about like superheroes get
rebooted constantly through time in the comics, now in the movies,
TV shows, all that sort of thing. I think it
speaks to these different filmmakers in this case are exposing

(48:37):
what makes Superman constant regardless of the rest of the
world around him, Like, what are the constant themes that
you can pursue, what are the constant motivations of Luther
and then you change everything else around that. And I
think that's why Gun and Snyder they do key on
you know, who am I? Who are my real parents?

(49:00):
Where did I get my real framing of ever?

Speaker 2 (49:03):
And and the idea of it's not what you like
your destiny. It's not about destiny what like what we
is about your choice? Yeah, it's your choices, it's your actions.
What did you what do you think? What do you
decide to do?

Speaker 3 (49:15):
And I think that this whole thing that, you know,
because we talk about the tenpescent of teapot controversies and
everything when uh. In Gun's version, the rest of the
recording is revealed as Joe l And and Missus Jurel
saying Laura, yeah whatever, saying you know, oh, well, we

(49:38):
want you to go and we want you to go
become a king and we want you to get a
harem and you'll bring Krypton back by breeding Krypton back
into the world. And I, uh, I remember it was
wild because I think Gun does his own subversive thing,
you know, Snyder does his subversive thing with his Superman
with this gun. And I'm pretty sure there was precedent

(50:01):
for this in the comics anyway where there is a
version of Superman where this was jor.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
El's not not explicitly like this, but there are versions
where Krypton is a little bit colder and were disconnected.
I think Smallville, the TV series, kind of did a
bait and switch where they set Jorelle up to be
the evil and then they were like, aha, I was
just testing you.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
But but the thing that I find fascinating about it
is watching it. I've only seen it. I always saw
it the one time in the theater, but watching it,
just having my initial reaction was that it was a lie.
Was this couldn't be true. And I thought that that
was the great subversive thing that Gun did, of turning

(50:44):
it on its head and really looking at it from
the perspective of you know something, I think that Matt
you talked about and Sean you've talked about too, where
like Gun throws us in the middle of it and
doesn't doesn't allow us to be comfort with like our
assumptions about the character sort of thing. And I think
that that sort of move of having Superman have a

(51:10):
moment where he really declares that who he is is
who he is because of his human parents is so huge,
because that's the big thing we've always like gone after,
is it is the Kents that make him who he is.
And I think that previous movie versions have leaned too

(51:30):
much into you know, the jor El's you know, the
state ad mission of Superman was always good, and it's like, no,
he got all of his grassroots stuff from the Kents,
like that's where he comes from. And then that whole
beautiful moment where it's like, you know, where he saw
him with Lois and he's she says, you see, everybody
is beautiful and he goes, well, maybe that's the real

(51:52):
punk rock Like that's one of the most like I
actually got choked up in the theater because I thought
that was one of the most beautiful moments I've seen
in a movie in recent years, where we have Wow,
what a what a statement?

Speaker 4 (52:04):
A statement well?

Speaker 1 (52:05):
And and I think that I'm really glad you brought
that up, John, because I think that that's one of
the places where, you know, the Snyder take and the
Gun take are really not all that different. The differences
is the universe that they're part of, and that that's
what the clerk of the world of Man of Steel

(52:27):
wants to be able to be You can see that
right when he is watching television and BVS and there's
that big hole montage of the people questioning, you know,
should there be a Superman? You know, well there is,
and and we got to deal with it, and and
and all he wants is to be able to be

(52:49):
a person who helps people, who saves people. You see
that throughout the film. And and he doesn't necessarily want
to be seen as a god. You see him in
that scene in Mexico when he saves the young girl
from the fire. He just wants to be the guy
who does the right thing at the right time.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
You know.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
John and I talked about this in our episode on
the six Oho two Club when we talked about Superman
from Gun and it's like, Superman is a guy who
just does the next right thing, and then he does
the next right thing after that, and he doesn't always
get it right, but that's what he's trying to do.
That's his motivation, and that's kind of what sets him

(53:31):
apart from every other character in the movie. I think
it's one of the geniuses of the Gun film, right.
Every character in that movie is a juxtaposition to who
Superman is and why he chooses to do the right thing,
and the choice is is because he got that from
his parents, from two people who nobody would know. From

(53:53):
Adam Right, they are the most you know, salt of
the earth, and in guns universe, they are the most
country of country. I mean, if you've been to the
Deep Country. I grew up in Texas, I've been to
the Deep Country. I know exactly what this is like.
These are the type of the people you're gonna find,
but they are. They are people who would do anything

(54:13):
for anyone, who love people who who have those morals
and values to which you know we all think of
as classic Americana, which is why when Superman says something
like truth justice in the American way, that's what he's
talking about, right, And so to watch that then play
out in this film, and it's why I can love

(54:35):
both versions of the character, and because I think they
both truly respect who the character is at the core.
The universes just allow them to have a different story
to get to that place, right, And I think it's
it's you know, that's why we all love comics, right,
We get to to infinitely explore our characters from infinite

(54:58):
perspectives and that's what makes it fun and and.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
I think I think it is what makes it fun.
And you know, just talking about the Kents, Sean, your
interview with the.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
New Ma Kent. What a lovely woman. She's just like
I want.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
I think I sent you a Texas like I wanted
to cry to her and I because she's so beautiful.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
I sent that text to her and she was very appreciated,
very very grateful. Oh, total total sweetheart.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
You know, I think that, uh, you know, that Gun
giving us the pure escapist version makes me actually appreciate
Snyder's version even more because I see exactly how Snyder like.
It makes me appreciate that Snyder worked so hard to

(55:46):
put this super being into a world that I live in, hmm,
so that I could deal with those questions in a
much more personal fashion where it's like I don't have
to say, oh, well, where did green lantern come from?
Or oh what does this happen? Like I recognize everything

(56:08):
about that world which makes it beautiful. That Gun, you know,
juxtaposes that by having it in this more fantastical, comic
booky world. But then the Kents are that slice of reality,
like Matt saying, I know people like this. Okay, I
understand why Clark turned out. That's a pretty good dude

(56:29):
because his parents are this, you know.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
That sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Ultimately, and ultimately, you know, it does come back to
what you're saying, Matt, And the irony is as you know,
as the Internet or the powers that be or whoever
whatever is trying to pit all these fandoms against each other,
you know, the Snyder, the Snyder bros. And the gun nuts.
Like you know, gun Nuts, I just came up. I

(56:56):
like that you have to dig through a lot, but
you get some gold.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
You're on missing for him, you know, if mister Gunn
wants his fans known as that, but.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Probably but probably he's going for guys.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
You know what I do. But I like, you know,
there's this constant like you know, you're on one side
or the other, and the irony is. You know, Matt
and John, I think you're more representative of the reality
you have. Gun and Snyder are buddies, and I think
they get a kick out of seeing the absurdity of
like the most inflammatory corners of the Internet trying to

(57:32):
tear each other down when they are behind the scenes
kind of like supporting each other and loving each.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
Other as as just like a side note, you know,
for that, have either of you seen the most recent
season of Rick and Morty. Yeah, there's an actual like
there's an entire episode where James Gun is in it
making fun of himself and then Zack Snyder.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Is in it, and the exchange that they have.

Speaker 4 (57:57):
In the cafeteria is just the funniest.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Have you ever tried showing the punch starting and it's
going really, really slow and then it speeds up really Yes, yes, Zach,
we've seen that.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
For the fact that it's also it's a reminder, you know,
it's very easy to uh, you know, with the veil
of the Internet, to bash bash human beings essentially, like, yeah,
you watch their product and you can say, like, god,
Zack Snyder's an idiot or geez, James Gun's a hack,
and you forget that these are human beings with emotions

(58:29):
and feelings. And what's wonderful about I think both of
their handlings of this entire the overblown discourse is that
they're constantly like I love Zach, I love James, He's great,
and then they're willing to do stuff like Rick and
Morty and you know, like a good, good chunk of

(58:50):
that fandom is watching Rick and Morty and like fuming
and like being like, yeah, you know, you want them
to hate each other, but they don't.

Speaker 4 (58:57):
It's I want to hate each other.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
It's a reminder that that that Rick and Morty thing
is a reminder of like just the absurdity of being
so hateful and wanting to to hate when they're so
willing to like laugh it off and say like, guys,
it's just a movie. We're just having fun. We're just
doing what we.

Speaker 4 (59:17):
Love, like chill.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
Well, they're just they're just there. They get they get
to do, like they get to have like the dream job,
and it's like and be successful at it while they're
doing it, and it's like, hey, you know it's cool.
But you know, it's sort of like that whole thing too.
You know what it reminds me of is I have
family members where they just couldn't process the idea that
players from different football teams at the end of the

(59:40):
game weren't like like they're like the game's over, they
just got shell act and it's like, ah, all right,
well that kind of suck.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
Yeah, man, battle up next. Time, Yeah, Catsu later.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think there is. And I really
like the way that y'all are putting this, you know,
and John, you and I have talked about this pretty frequently.
You know, nobody sets out to make a dumb, stupid,
crappy movie, Like that's not their goal. Like everybody's trying
to make the best version of the movie they have

(01:00:14):
in their brain that they want to see. And I
really like the way you put that shun to see
people as these objects then that I consume and then
I can spit out instead of like seeing people the
way Superman does, right, which is you see everybody is beautiful, uh,

(01:00:34):
And and I think that that's something that our world
just has lost because we don't see people as people.
We just see them as an avatar for the whatever
it is that I want to hit with my you know,
green lantern bat in the sky. That's what our our
internet complaining ends up looking like. But in the end,

(01:00:55):
it's it has an impact on the real people. And
and so you know, I think one of the things
that you know, again we've all talked about this before,
just behind the scenes, but one of the reasons that
I think we enjoy like podcasting and stuff. It's like, well,
let's talk about the product in a way that is respectful,

(01:01:19):
but it was also constructive, like why didn't we like
the thing? What didn't work for us? Why didn't it
work for us? Instead of just being.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Well, that was dumb.

Speaker 4 (01:01:27):
I hated that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
That was stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
You know, that's not constructive or helpful, and it doesn't
treat the person who made it with respect. And I
think in all of this, whether you love or hate
a thing, okay, well, the great thing is is that
other stuff exists that you probably do like. So maybe
it's better just to let go of what you don't

(01:01:51):
like and enjoy what you do like and just like,
you know, chill.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Yeah, as somebody who had friends.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Who had friends the past, had he did have friends
there at some point.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
I'll find one more. I don't know who I'm saying.
I'm putting out a personal lad at this point. For
some reason, this thing Tinder, no friends show up. I
don't know what's going on, but I think that there
is a I think there's also for anybody who was
on the ground. I'm older than both of you, right,
you know, Matt, I'm only a little bit older.

Speaker 4 (01:02:27):
Than you, Sean, you're a baby.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Yeah. Yeah, anybody from the beginning.

Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
As anybody who went through the on the ground moment
of nineteen ninety nine with the with the fantoms Man,
anybody who went through that, like and you see it
still going on now and people are like, I can't
believe people are doing this, and it's like it's like
that meme of I think it's like James Franco and

(01:02:54):
the Noose where he's just looking around. It's like first time,
like that's just where we are where. It's like, that's
why I can't like. My question though, is is, after
all of this discussion, which I think has been great, Sean,
have we given you anything else to think about at
a minimum with Man of Steel where you're like, I

(01:03:15):
don't know, maybe there is something there that I could
glean out of it with another viewing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
No, but I love, I love I look what I
what I love about this and why I wanted to
do this is to basically to heal the world. I
think this podcast is gonna love it fix all the
problems in the world. But it's a it is a
reminder that, like, look the discourse, it can be fun,

(01:03:40):
you know, if for people who have been listening to
the celebrating Superman series, you can go to the Zack
Snyder episode and you can hear every unfiltered thought that
I have about Snyder's take on Superman. But I think
ultimately and it's you know, you can have fun with that.
But like you said, Matt, it's it's important to remember

(01:04:02):
that like somebody who might like something that you don't,
it is not immediately deserving of your vitriolic reaction. And
there is a there is a place where you can
come and say like, oh, hey, like you enjoyed you
enjoyed that, and I enjoyed this, and like that's a
great middle ground, let's talk about it. But also like

(01:04:23):
you can listen to somebody you disagree with and respect
their opinion without fully embracing the same ideology. I'm not saying.
I'm not saying we are we are the example to follow,
certainly not John, but.

Speaker 4 (01:04:38):
In some ways definitely in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
You know, part of what is fun about podcasting, as
Matt was saying, is that ability to sit down with
friends and you may not agree with everything everyone says,
but you can enjoy each other's company and have a fun,
sometimes semi constructive conversation about it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
Yes, semi construc active is definitely the way I would
classify this.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
Like, you know, Matt, Matt and I I think Matt
and I think are equally passionate about this character and
have wildly differing views about certain takes on the character.
But it all comes back to just that it's still
the love is pure. It's not a it's not coming
from a place of like, well, I enjoy it because
you hate it, or like something like that, you know

(01:05:22):
what I mean. So I think that's important to remember.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
And there's there's nothing that makes you special if you
get off on hating other people and hating what they
love and and just like making their lives miserable.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
I think again, if you love the character of Superman,
what is the core ethos of the character? It's to
make the world a better place any way that he
can with the powers that he has, and there's even
a limit to what he can do, right I mean.
But at the same time, if we see each other

(01:05:59):
as as people who deserve respect, because each one of
us is beautiful in our own way, and that's what
makes us unique, That's what makes the arts fun because
not everything is the same. It's why this character can
last this long, because there's been so many iterations of
him that somebody picked up at a comic book store

(01:06:21):
one day, or picked up at their local library, or
picked up from their older brother or sister right and
just started reading and that was their introduction in the character.
And it could have been the goofiest issue ever where
a mini Superman came out of Superman's hand to help him.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Save the day and.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Only James goun But you know, like, like seriously, that
that's the kind of place that this this type of
character has been, especially with the longevity, and and so
we can like certain aspects of it, we can dislike
certain aspects of it, but in the end, like entertainment
is meant to entertain, but then it is also meant

(01:07:11):
to hopefully make us think. Right, and each of these
Superman iterations that we've talked about tonight, Snyder's and I
think guns have asked different questions that I think are
important for the world that we inhabit at this moment.
Snyder was asking specific questions that I think really we're
needed at that point, and in all honesty, what James

(01:07:34):
Gun has to say through his film and the idea
of maybe maybe we should just all be nicer to
one another, because maybe that would be a better world.

Speaker 4 (01:07:44):
I think.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
I think it's what we kind of need to hear
right now. And so regardless of where you are in politics,
where you are on Superman, where you are on whatever,
fill in the blank, maybe we should just be nicer
people to each other because we all deserve it. And
that's what this character can do. And like you said, Sean,
that's why you love him, That's why I love him,
That's why John loves them, and that's why we can

(01:08:07):
sit here and like you said, we don't agree on
every single point, but we can have a great conversation
where we truly love and respect when I don't know
about John, but we truly love and respect each other.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
The simple fact of the matter is for those listening
along at home, they're very jealous of my haircut, and
they never let it go because I found the perfect
haircut years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
I am jealous of I am jealous of your real
Twin Peaks shirt though I do want that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Yeah, that's understand.

Speaker 4 (01:08:35):
Suck it loser. There you go, I've been there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Well, this, guys, this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you
both for hanging out and Matt, I do I really
appreciate you coming here and giving your you know, giving
all your Zack Snyder love and giving me an opportunity
to give somebody that that platform on my show after
man the naysaying I've done so, thank you both and Matt.
If the people want to find you elsewhere out there

(01:09:01):
on the Internet, where can they find you?

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
Absolutely you can find me all over social media under
the name Matt Rushing zero two. So if I'm on
that platform, that's what you want to search. Of course,
here on the Nerd Party, you'll find me with a
couple of shows. One is completed called Owl Post talking
about every single chapter of the Harry Potter series, one
chapter of Time, which is about to come relevant again
since they're doing a new series right And of course

(01:09:27):
John Mills and I have the best Star Wars podcast
that you're not listening to called Aggressive Negotiations, which.

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
You should be.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
And then over on the TFM network you'll find me
doing a bunch of shows of course the six oh
two Club. John's the frequent guests over there. We talk
lots of great stuff, so please check that out. And
then there's great Star Trek talk over there as well
for a lot of shows with my good friend Chris Jones,
so lots of places, but hope you'll check that out.
And yeah, I really appreciate this, Sean, because in all honesty,

(01:09:57):
like it's been an absolute blast. So I'm just really
honored that you would be like, hey, I'm having a
Superman retrospective and we got to give space for people
who actually love Zack Snyder. So thanks for the opportunity.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
Yeah, thank you, Matt John, what about you?

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
I'm sorely disappointed with this evening, gentlemen, because I was.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Expecting to break up a fight.

Speaker 3 (01:10:18):
I want, I want to fist the cuffs and I'm
just like what why am I here?

Speaker 4 (01:10:22):
Like what even happened? You know?

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
The thing is is that Sean is so beautiful and
he sees me as so beautiful, and therefore why would
we fight?

Speaker 3 (01:10:31):
That's true, I know, and I wish i'd known ahead
of time. I wouldn't have I wouldn't have brought what
I brought.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
So that's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
But you know, like that said, we talk about Star Wars.
We have a lot of fun over on aggressive negotiations.
I just want to say, because we know what the
inside of the Death Star smells like, and you got
to tune in to figure that one out. And of course,
also on on the Nerd Party, I'm co hosting house
Lights with Dare and Moser and Tristan Riddell, where I

(01:11:02):
frequently threaten at least one of them each episode, so
it's sort of a trend. I don't know, and look
for Kessel Junkie online, Sure, Letterbox, I love talking about movies.
I'm disappointed that we're this deep into August and uh
whatever year? What year is? I don't know best year, guys,
It's best Buck Rogers year yet, because I'm really pissed.

Speaker 4 (01:11:25):
That's what I got to say. So anyway, that's me.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
I'm at a shondor man on on Twitter and Seon
Doorman on Instagram, Shon Doorman, oh five on Letterbox, all
these places, there's a Seon Doorman somewhere stealing my my name,
and I'm very, very upset. So it's not easy to
have to remember all those different names. But you can
find me in all those different places. You can find
me here on Missing Frames. Eventually I will start watching
all of the movies I need to see at this

(01:11:51):
point in my life. Again, I'm just in the midst
of celebrating Superman. So go check out all those episodes
and all the people I've gotten to talk to, And
this is been a Blacks gentlemen. Thank you again, Thank
you for celebrating Superman with being Matt and John