October 26, 2024 • 45 mins
Day 22 of the Crimetober Series is about the OJ Simpson case of 1910, in which the trial wrapped up on October 22, 1910. Dr. Crippen was hanged for a murder he did not commit.
I apologize for the late release
Sources
https://thehistorypress.co.uk/article/the-notorious-case-of-dr-crippen/
http://news.msu.edu/media/documents/2011/01/3cda8882-265b-4282-9eba-a13d880f09a2.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawley_Harvey_Crippenhttps://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/hawley-crippen/199/
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-10802059
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/execution-dr-crippen
http://news.msu.edu/media/documents/2011/01/3cda8882-265b-4282-9eba-a13d880f09a2.pdf
https://www.discoveryuk.com/mysteries/who-was-dr-crippen-and-what-did-he-do/
I apologize for the late release
Sources
https://thehistorypress.co.uk/article/the-notorious-case-of-dr-crippen/
http://news.msu.edu/media/documents/2011/01/3cda8882-265b-4282-9eba-a13d880f09a2.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawley_Harvey_Crippenhttps://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/hawley-crippen/199/
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-10802059
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/execution-dr-crippen
http://news.msu.edu/media/documents/2011/01/3cda8882-265b-4282-9eba-a13d880f09a2.pdf
https://www.discoveryuk.com/mysteries/who-was-dr-crippen-and-what-did-he-do/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome back to nature versus narcissism.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
As always, I'm your host, Heather, and today I have Corney.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm back, bitches, She's always back. It's like she never leaves.
I mean, I could be living in your walls. You
don't know. Basically, the people know the stairs. That's what
I feel. There's not a lot of space under your stairs.
I would it be the body closet in Jason's office. Well,
the people know the stairs actually live in the walls. Also,
the frogging. I can't watch a lot of that show
(00:45):
because I get paranoid, and you're my backup plan of
shit goes down, So I know Apocalypse A waiting. Yeah, yeah,
the plan is I make the food. You guys defend me.
There's dogs. I'm fine with this planned. We're all fine
with it. I won't be able to bring all the
plants here, but that's fine. I will accept the loss.
(01:06):
I mean, we have a whole room we don't use.
It's fine. But anyway, in case you were wondering about
our survival plan, this plan came about in COVID times. Yes,
I exchanged I believe goods. I think the first no.
I exchanged biscuits and gravy for masks. That's true, and
then you gave us soup. Yeah, I was bored as
(01:28):
shit and I like to cook and I don't know
how to cook for one person.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
And she would leave it outside of our apartment door
that's locked at all times. Well at the time when
we lived there, it was locked, so she would like
leave it and then she would text us from her
car and be like, are you going to get it?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
We're like, yeah, I would know. I would scurry away.
I'd be outside. I would scurry away far enough away.
You would leave, you would pick it up, you would
leave a present. We did a little exchange. It was fine.
It does seem like I'm a fan that you are
trying to appease or I'm trying to appease you. I
don't know which way something happened. Yeah, it's like I'm
(02:06):
trying to, like, you know, summon moth Man by through treats.
But yeah, anyways, let's con Oh sorry, okay, well yeah,
many are trying to get through more. Come on. Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Many of our longtime listeners know that each spooky season
we like to throw a bit of a curveball and
share a series with you.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
That doesn't quite follow the main feed format. Courtney is
guzzling some more head soda. Oh wow, that really is
the sour just hit way more this time. Yeah, I
bet you chugged it. I'm not mad. This year is
no different.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
This year, we're aiming to bring you at least one
main Feed episode per day, even if it's late. I'm sorry,
my brain doesn't operate.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
As well as I would like it to. Heather has
to leave the house for work now.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, and I just don't have time, and I'm really trying.
But we'll also sprinkle some Patreon episodes throughout, including video ones,
so you'll be getting those. And then this year we're
also bringing you a story that is either a bottle
crime or has a crime connection to each day in October,
and today we're discussing the connection with October twenty second. Actually,
(03:10):
we're really mixing it up this time because Cortney is
bringing the case and I get to listen.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I know, it's so cool. It's, you know, like we
were Heather's looking in a haunted mirror instead of her
giving the podcast episode. It's me. I will say, I
actually already knew about this case because I didn't know
shit about it, so it was exciting. Was obsessed with
this show. It was a British show on Netflix. I'm
(03:38):
pretty sure they were just putting it on Netflix that
they didn't Netflix going to make it called murder Maps. Yeah,
for people who don't know me, I love a good map.
I get fascinated by them, new old, different projections. It's
a fun time. So I had heard about this case,
(03:59):
and but first, before we delve into it, why are
we talking about October twenty second? Mainly because it's not
going to come up very quickly, and it's really because
the case will essentially conclude on October twenty second. That's okay,
there's still a connection, right, Yeah, the crime's not occurring
on that date, and I wanted to put that out
(04:19):
there first because because I feel like the I feel
like a lot of them occur on the date, and
this is not that fair. So we're going to talk
about doctor Crippen. The name alone, very fun name, and
actually it has a nice little twisty twist that you're
not going to expect at the end, which I didn't
(04:40):
know about until now. So that was a very fun
time for me. You can always learn new things about
old cases, right, right, So doctor Crippen is going to
move from the UK, move to the UK, and he's
going to work it as a homeopathic doctor in London.
He's gonna move there with his flamboyant and flirtatious wife, Cora.
(05:03):
It's always a Cora who is going to be known
by her stage name Belle Elmore. Jesus, Okay, Honestly, today,
if you told me someone's name was Belle Elmore, I
would think they were a drag queen and a fabulous
one at that. Oh okay, I can see that either way.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Cora and Bell are very pretty names, very very like
flirtatious names.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
If ye't ask me, she is a struggling music hall singer. Okay,
But who is doctor Crippen? No? Literally, Doctor Crippen is
born in Clearwater, Michigan. Cold Water. I can't read now.
I've had to read all day and now you're making
me read and talk more like it's not my job
(05:43):
five days a week. Holly Crippen is born in Coldwater, Michigan. Boom,
just for the state of Michigan. He's going to be
the only that is just for Brittany. That's just for Brittany.
On Ohio all the time, and as someone who has
(06:04):
lived in other states, how dare you? We're not that bad.
I don't actually hate Michigan either. Michigan's not that bad.
He's gonna be the only surviving child to Andres Skinner
and Myron Augustus Crippen. My god, these names are so fancy.
That's a vibe. He's gonna go to the University of
(06:25):
Michigan's Homopathy School and then graduate from Cleveland Homopathy Medical
College in eighteen eighty four. His first wife, Charlotte Jane,
is going to die of a stroke in eighteen ninety two. Geez.
Then Crippen will entrust his parents, who are living in
San Jose, California at the time, with the care of
(06:48):
his son, Holly Otto, because he's like, nah fam.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Also, when she's saying Holly, it's spelled hawl Y, not hoy.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, that's how I'm guessing, pronounced Holly Holly. I don't
want to put the a too hard and have the
Midwestern really slip my Cleveland accent really slip out. You're good,
but like, what a what a fucking shame?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Though, Like so his wife dies of a stroke and
then he's like, I can't take care of my kid anymore.
Here go off to grandma and Grandpa's house.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Not uncommon, I know, but that's just frus kid. He
just lost both parents. I'm so sorry. Did you hear that?
That was my stomach? No, it's digesting. Oh Jesus no.
So it's not uncommon at the time, especially if it's
a father. Yeah, even a mother if you have several kids,
(07:40):
because it's expensive and if you don't have the capacity,
it was considered normal and they're still raised by a
family member, So it could have been like, you know,
a grandparent, an aunt and uncle, a sibling, something like that,
where they have the means or at least sometimes it's
like he's a doctor, he's They're like, it's probably because
(08:02):
they're like, your career is gonna go better if you
don't have a kid. He is qualified as a homeopath.
Krippin is gonna move to New York City and start
a practice there. In eighteen ninety four, he marries his
second wife, Karne Cora Turner actually born I'm a butcher.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
The oh, I don't know how you're gonna say it.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Kira Gundytt Makakowski it's Polish. I'm pretty sure you butchered it.
But I would I butchered it, but I you're trying.
I it's hard. Polish isn't a language normally. I known
names and who at the time is a music hall
(08:44):
singer performing under the name Belle Elmore, and we see
why it's very a much more americanized name. In that
same year, Crippen is gonna turn to working for a
prominsed homeopath, James and Muya, and he's gonna move to
London with his wife in eighteen ninety seven in order
(09:05):
to manage Mullian's branch office there. Okay, so basically just
transferring between offices. Yeah, However, Crippen's medical qualifiation talking is hard.
I like, I don't do it for a profession. Crippen's
medical qualifications in the US actually do not transfer over
(09:28):
into the UK, so he's not qualified as a doctor.
That would fucking suck.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Like going to school to be a medical doctor already
is so long and grueling, and then to find out
that your shit doesn't transfer, you're.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Gonna start all over fucking suck. I think for certain things,
maybe doctor, lawyer, nurse, you have to take the boards
in different stuff. Oh I know. Oh yeah, yeah, so
it'd kind of be like that.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yes and no, because like if your credits don't transfer,
not only are you doing the boards and that area,
you have to redo some courses too, right, I bet you.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
He probably just had to do some like shadowing and stuff.
It probably might be something like that. So to continue working,
Crippen works as a distributor of patent medicines and Cora
embarks on her what will be a failed stage career
and start socializing with a number of various theater players
(10:25):
of the time she was trying. They're both trying to
make this work. Yeah. Crippen will be sacked by Munion
in eighteen ninety nine, as he worked for other patent
medicine companies, He's ultimately going to be hired on as
the manager for the Druet Institute for the Death. While
(10:46):
he's working there, he'll hire ethel Lenova. I'm gonna say
that's how it's pronounced. She is going to be a
typist for them in nineteen hundred. By nineteen oh five,
we know that they're having an affair.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Oh boy, yeah, oh goodness, this isn't good.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
No, already No, Crippen is gonna live various places around London,
but finally they're going to move. Him and his wife
are going to move into number thirty nine Hilltop Crescent,
Camden Road, Holloway. They're going to look for lodgers to
supplement Crippen's meager incomes. Can remember Cora is not doing
(11:25):
well with her theater ca Yeah, don't worry, Cora is
gonna have an affair with one of these lodgers. Well,
you know what if they're giving her some monies. Here's
the Having lodgers is pretty common in this time. No,
I know, but yeah, it's but what if she's getting
extra monies. Oh, you're saying she's doing a side hustle. Yes,
she's doing her only fans. Yes, before we had only lodgers.
(11:51):
Haven't you heard of it? I have not ask her.
She'll tell you all about it. Get a beautiful kind
of OnlyFans thing. But it's it's like the vintage colors
only lodgers. I'll sign up. I don't know what I'll
show you, but I'll sign up. I'll show you some
nice plants. Don't worry. Crippen is fully taking Liniv as
(12:16):
his mistress. In nineteen oh eight.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Oh, I'm sure it's gonna yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So this is a true crime podcast. Where is the crime?
You may be asking. I'm ready for it. I can
feel it already in my bones. Yes, Heather can see.
You can't see listeners because this is not a visual medium.
My notes say the crime question mark because there's gonna
be some questions. Oh shit, we know on February first,
(12:52):
nineteen ten, Cora Crippen vanishes. Oh I'm sorry, Okay, it's
so weird that you say so long ago. But in
my head I'm like, ah, yes, that was yesterday. I
act like they don't talk about the turn of the
century five days a week and be like, oh, yes,
all of these things happen. It just the rolodex of
(13:14):
my mind. Yeah, wow, that is a reference. Okay, sorry,
I'm February first, nineteen ten vanished. Okay, so we know
that they had a dinner party and after that she
has never seen again. Oh my god. Crippen tells Cora's
friends that she had returned to the US to visit relatives,
(13:35):
and then soon after that she's ill and dies. Oh
He's like, bummer, I didn't even get to say goodbye.
To her. Yeah, jeez, it gets worse. I can feel it.
Asks his secretary and lover, Ethel to move in with him.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
My god, dude, this is like the biggest first mistake
that they make, like every fucking time, Like, how about we,
you know, let the dust settle and let the grass
row over the fucking grave first before you move the
bitch in. Oh, it's like you're looking very sauce. My guy,
it's within a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
This is ridiculous, Like are they stupid? It's so messy,
so messy, it's so messy. It's like my fucking messy
ass case. On the fifteenth of October, like these guys.
On top of it, Ethel starts openly wearing Cora's clothes
and jewelry. Motherfuckers.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Dude, it's one thing to have, like her car sitting
in the driveway or whatever, to fucking horse buggy, I
don't fucking know.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
It's one thing to have that kind of stuff. But
now you're wearing her jewelry and her clothes.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
You have to remember, she's just assuming her identity, so
it is her name Belle.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Also, now maybe you have to remember too. At this time,
everybody wore the same size. I get it. No, No,
it's not that your clothes are more expensive, so you're
not gonna have as many articles of clothing. I'm not
gonna wear a dead gals clothes. I'm just thrift. I
wear a lot of dead people's intentionally. I don't like that.
(15:06):
They no, like, she knows the bitch died, she knows
that her boy, her boothing fucking killed her. I know
she knows. Okay, and she's moving in and she's she's
fucking wearing her clothes. It's sick. It's sick. Sorry, I'm
very heated about this for some reason. It's sick. I
was just gonna say it would also be noticeable because
(15:29):
if you don't have as many articles, you're gonna be
like that's bells. Yeah yeah, Lizzy Maguire, you're an outfit
for Peter. Oh my god, I love that. So the
police are first going to hear of chorus appearance disappearance
from her friend, and I should say we're in the
(15:50):
beginning part of policing, so this is always a wild
trip from the strong woman Kate Volcana Williams. Okay, get it, girl,
and they're gonna take it more seriously when asked to
investigate by her two other friends. So her she got
good friends, Yeah, she does. Like this bitch is missing. Yeah.
(16:12):
The actress lil Hawthorne and her husband, manager John Nash,
they're going to press their acquaintance. The Scotland Yard superintendent
forced into looking into it. So Detective Inspector Walter du
talks to Crippen in.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
July, why don't we have cool names like this now, Walter, dude,
did he make Mountain Dew?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I don't know he has the same name, mind you.
Cora disappears at the beginning of February. We're going to July. Yeah,
it's been a minute. So Crippen talks to do and
he says Cora leaves him for another man, and he's embarrassed,
so he lies to her friends to save face, and
they're like, oh, we get it. Ego sorry, He's like,
(17:00):
He's like, I didn't want them. I didn't want everyone
to know because you have to remember now, it would
be embarrassing at that time. It could wreck your career. Yeah,
so against you know, it's one of those things. They
questioned him. They look around a little bit. They leave.
A couple days later, They're like, we got more questions.
They show up, Crippen and Ethel are gone. They disappear. Whoops.
(17:27):
So Crippen is so freaked out by the questioning he
and Ethyl grab their stuff head to Brussels. Ethyl is
disguised as a boy, and I will say, as someone
who loves history, I love when people cross dressed to
get away. Normally it's like kings, dukes and stuff dressing
as a woman to escape. But I love a good
(17:49):
cross dress to escape.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It's very fun. So did mount Did Ethel wear Crippen's clothes?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Then? I don't know. They didn't say, well, they just
said she was dressed as a boy. Meanwhile, back in London,
police are gonna search. He'll crop, he'll drop crescent and
inside they're gonna find the gruesome remains of a body
beneath the coal cellar. What I thought she was in
(18:16):
the US, you know she's she never fucking laughed. So again,
this is where it's gonna get a little gruesome. Gonna
be wrapped in a male's pajama jacket later identified as Crippen's.
There is no head, no limbs, no bones, no genitals,
but there is a trace of poison that Crippen was
(18:38):
discovered to have bought not long before Cora's disappearance. The
public is riveted and they are demanding answers. So naturally
the press is also demanding answers. Yes, I mean think
about it. No head, no limbs, no bones, and no genitals. Yeah,
(19:02):
like what did they find just for skin? Yeah, like
chunks of skin? Oh my god? Yeah, I want answers.
Where the fuck did they put all that stuff? So
because of all of this, scrutiny is put on Scotland
Yard to solve the crime and catch Crippin. Right, so
they will put the ports and train stations on watch.
(19:26):
Foreign police abroad are alerted to look from like an APB,
an international APB, right, like this guy is dangerous, Like
we may be dressed as a woman. Well, I don't
think you don't know that it's time. But so it's
one of those things too where they're like he's wanted
in the question of the disappearance of his wife and
there's a body found in his house.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Right, No, No, there's a pieces a body, chunks of
body that we don't know where the rest of it
is called chunks of bodies.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I mean it could be so. Additionally, a young Winston
Churchill war criminal Winston Churchill, then Britain's Home Secretary is
immediately tracking the investigation as well, because you have to
remember the police in the UK are under the Home Secretary. Okay,
(20:18):
so that's completely within his purview. It wouldn't be like
our Secretary of State keeping track of like the FBI.
We need an episode just on Winston Churchill. It's a time, okay.
So we know on July twentieth, Criffin and Ethel are
(20:38):
going to sail from Antwerp for Canada on the liner Montrose.
He's going to call himself weirdly Robinson. What sorry, Heather
and I have just recorded October seventeenth with his name
is very close, very close to that. And Ethel is
going to pose as his teenage son again as a boy.
(21:00):
Well yeah, because you don't want him being seen with
a woman. You're look for a couple. But if it's
a father son, yeah, not as weird. Yeah, oh my god,
this this stressed me. However, they raise suspicions when they're
behaving too lovingly together, which yeah, it is weird. Come over,
(21:22):
your son, let me give you a big smooch. The
captain is Hella suspicious and will inform the ship's owner
by telegraph. Yeah, I believe it's the Macaroni telegraph I
saw somewhere and that just makes me smile every time.
God pasta again, I've been talking about pasta. Oh God.
(21:46):
The owners are then going to pass that word on
to Scotland Yard and Do is actually gonna get on
another steamer to pursue them. He's gonna get on a
faster boat. It's a boat and am I kidding you?
It's literally a boat race. He's gonna get on a
faster liner, the Laurentic, and it's gonna reach Father Point
(22:10):
in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence ahead of the Montrose. Yeah. Him,
he literally just he was like, I need to go
faster than that guy. What you got? Yeah, pretty much.
It's insane. So Do is waiting for them. He gets
on the pilot vessel that's gonna like bring the Montrose
(22:32):
into port right to arrest Cripin and ethel. So just
imagine you think you've gotten a way, you're in Canada.
You're gonna be safe, all of us, Like motherfuckers, I
got you all of a sudden're gett getting ready to
go into port, and somebody else comes on the boat
and you see him and you just.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Go, oh shit, I'm surprisident jump off the boat, like
into the water.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Oh no, it's so high, you would it's they would die. Yeah,
but I'm surprisedident try at this point. Yeah, so dou
said afterwards he had never in his life felt such
a sense of triumph and achievement. Well, yeah, you deserved it.
They're all gonna be on the Mantrose, which goes on
(23:12):
to Quebec. Quebec. Sorry, I don't want to say that.
Weird also accompanied by reporters who had swarmed on board.
That's amazing. So we always are like we need the story.
Here's the thing that always makes me laugh when people
are like true crimes like out of hand.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I know it's been out of hand. We just didn't
have people documenting me out of hand.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
It's also if you look at it this way, it's
very much just human nature to be curious, look true crime,
at these horrible things, and you're just like, how does
this happen? All of that, and so do regarded the
press as an infernal nuisance and don't Yeah, so a nuisense.
(24:10):
But the dramatic story that George Orwell said that no
novelists would have dared to create make up created a
frenzy of excitement and pressed.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So basically he's saying this, it's so crazy that would
not have even made you know.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Like more of the worlds and all of that, George Orwell,
they decided not to try the pair together. Crippen is
going to face his trial first, and once that verdict
had been determined, Ethel would be on the dock to
be tried as an accessory, so that she should Yeah, well,
(24:46):
here's the thing, we don't actually really know what happened.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I believe that they butchered her and hit her and
then stole her clothes and then fled.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
That's what I believe. So on October eighteenth, Rippon stands
alone in the docket at the Old Bailey, which no
longer exists, before the Lord Chief Justice of England, Lord Alverstone,
God these names, and this would proceed until October twenty second. Today.
(25:19):
The defense is simple. The body in the cellar of
his home is not Bells. What it's not Corra's no,
you lie, why you wolis lie in the body must
have been of some poor unknown woman and have been
placed in there before he and Bell had moved in,
and they didn't smell it, and it was still intact
(25:42):
when they found it, Like it wasn't that long that
her body was dead, Like that she'd been dead, you
know what I mean, a couple of months. I don't know.
I'm not buying it, So they push that is crucial
for the prosecution to prove it is Bell.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
So well, we don't have her head anymore, we don't
have her limbs anymore, we don't have any identifying factors
except for the fact that she had skin case closed.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
There is one piece of flesh found in this shallow
grave that bore a scar, and medical records did show
Belle has a scar on her lower abdomen. Oh yeah.
Even more conclusive was the fact that the remains had
been wrapped in a pajama jacket, and inside the jacket
was a tag that leads to the manufacturers, the Jones brothers,
(26:35):
not Jonas but Jones Jones. Yeah, not the Jonas brothers.
They are not involved in it. Disclaimer, The Jonahs brothers
are not involved in this crime. No, they are not
even born, not even thought about their parents aren't born
or thought about that. Yeah, so the manufacturers confirmed that
that particular coth and pattern had not been issued until
(26:57):
late nineteen oh eight. Oh burn bitches facts science proving
that the body had to have been placed after that.
This in the scar was consistent with the body of
being Belle Elmore. So they're like, told you get this scar,
We got this stuff. It has to be be Oh
(27:18):
my god. They are exhausting. Additionally, there are medical tests
on the flesh that contain traces of hydroccene, a poison.
We know that Krippen purchases five grains of the substance
on January seventeenth, two weeks before Bell had vanished. Oh no,
the jury takes us all in talks for thirty minutes
(27:40):
to find Crippen guilty of his wife's death.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Well, the facts are there, Yeah, the evidence is there.
So they're like, we have places to be.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
We had to catch that boat. It's the slow one. Yeah,
we don't have money for the fast boat. So we
still have Ethel's trial and and that starts on October
twenty fifth as an accessory for murder, and she is
found not guilty. A subsequent appeal on behalf of Crippen
is going to be dismissed, and he had been sentenced
(28:12):
to death, so that sentence is confirmed at that point. Okay,
So on Wednesday, November twenty third, nineteen ten, the forty
eight year old Crippen is going to be hung at
Pennville Pentonville by John Ellis and William Willis. These names,
(28:34):
these are just made up names at this point. I
think over the years people have just added and taken
away from the story, and they're like, we think William
Willis would be a fun name. You want know. The
sad thing is the Okay, so they're probably all the
actual names. Well, fine, he does have a last request
and it is for a photograph of ethel in some
of her letters to be buried with him in an
(28:56):
unmarked grave. And those were granted. It was antid But
did it happen. Probably not. No, They're like, we don't
fucking care about you. Yeah, just did it, that's what
they said. Did we approve. Yeah, they said that the
wish was granted, But did it happen? Yeah? They could
have just said that they were going to and then
they did it. No, I think we know that they
(29:17):
did it. It was kind of it wasn't It was
pretty common to just follow it through with that stuff. Wow,
so I have it. So do you think you did it? Yes,
(29:38):
let's do that before we yes, So most people would
have said yes up until pretty recently.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Don't fucking don't fucking do this again, Corney, you did
this on the last episode.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
You did the curveball. I'm not head for it. I
want to know did he murder her? Heather? What is
the title of the next section. I don't want to
look now, just modern day science question mark. And this
is pulled from PBS. Oh my god, I'm so sick
of this show. Quit quote. The Crippen case was the
(30:12):
OJ Simpson case of nineteen Oh my god, the golf
didn't fit. I don't think any murder in history had
been covered that much in newspapers. It was being read
about all over the world. Quote. So that's from forensic
tox ecologists John Trescill and he is one of the
key investigators who revisited the Crippen case.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
So are they not busy enough that they don't have
cases they can just work on. They have to go
all the way back in history like this, Like, come on,
there's plenty.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Of unsolved cases. Let's solve them. Don't go drudge this
up when we know he did it. It could also
be an interesting case study, though, like to do for
cases modern day cases.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yes, but now you're gonna tell me that he didn't
do it.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
It's a poisonous expert who is troubled by its circum
circumstantial evidence. He had never heard of a poisoning case
where then the perpetrator had dismembered his victims. That's because
poisoners usually did all they did to make the death
look like an accident. Yeah, it's usually a woman who poisons,
(31:21):
but even guys who do it, Like, why would you
poison them? And then get like make it look like
a murder?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Well he didn't he hit what No, here's my theory
and I'm not even looking at the rest of your
shit yet. This motherfucker was like, this bitch is getting
on my nerves, like she's not working. I have Ethyl now,
I just want to be with Ethyl, and it's too
hard to get rid of her.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Whatever their fucking issues.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Were, Right, he poisons her and then he's like, ah, shit,
I gotta get rid of the body.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
So then he dismembers her, and then he's really enjoying
the dismembering, so then he starts taking the bones out
and doing all this other fucking ship and then he's like,
oh my god, now I just have the skin flaps
and chunks left over. What do I do with that?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So he wraps it up in his fucking little pajama
jacket and then buries it under the fucking house. Yeah,
it started out as a poisoning. And then he's like, ship,
how do I get rid of the evidence? Boom case soft?
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Okay, you're you're gonna mythbust this, aren't you? A little bit?
I hate this show. I hated here. Somebody please make
(32:40):
a sticker for theather. This this show. I hate the show.
It's your show. I hate this house. It's your hated here.
Ah so stressed out, sorry Okay, asked the questions if
had committed X, why would he have disposed of so
(33:02):
much of the body but then just left a few
incriminating pieces behind to see let me out of time.
So because of these questions and analysis of the court records,
he then takes on new forensic testing of the physical
evidence that still remains of the crime. Scene. Treuscill will
travel between the US and England to piece together details
(33:24):
of the infamous crime, working closely with DNA expert Farran
and the genealogist Willis along the way, so Fran's doctor.
Fran's team works in his forensic biology lab at Michigan
State University to compare DNA from the one hundred year
old tissue to modern DNA from relatives of Cora that
(33:45):
Willis has managed to struck down. They expected, much like
you think, to confirm that it is Cora's body, but
instead the DNA does not match. Even more, start hating
so much. It's not even a woman, it's a man.
(34:05):
It's a male victim. Well they did say the genitals
were cut off. Oh my gosh, so the body does
not belong to Cora. Trescill begins to dig deeper into
the police in court archives, and he slowly unravels a
series of suppress documents. What among them is a letter
(34:29):
from Crippen, or to Crippen from Cora, in which she
claims she is living in America and has no plans
to save him from execution. While the letter is deemed
a hoax by investigators, it was never even shown to
Crippen or his lawyers. Was it possible that police tampered
with evidence used in the trial? Hold the fuck up?
(34:52):
Hold on, she's literally holding the wall. The house is
falling down. Hold on, So thought you hated to hear this.
This bitch knows. This bitch is in the US, and.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
She knows that he is being framed for her murder,
and she writes him a letter, supposedly, so we don't they.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
What the letter is deemed a hoax, but it's never
shown to write. It's suppressed. Well, so the investigators, the
modern investigators, it seems like. But still this is wild. Yeah,
was it Coorra's lover? Here's the thing we don't know.
(35:38):
So there's all these new filings findings. Remember Crippen had
a son from the previous marriage. So James Patrick Crippen,
who is the closest living male relative to Crippen, is
actually formally requesting the British government part in the doctor
and return his bones to America. We do know. Before
(36:00):
and is executed, he wrote an eerily prophetic letter to Ethel.
In it, he says, quote face to face with God,
I believe that the facts will be forecoming to prove
my innocence end quote, and forensic science has determined he
was correct. We do not know what happened to Kora.
She could have possibly been living in America and died.
(36:23):
We don't know, and the lie detective test determined that
was not a lie. So all we know is Coorra
was missing. He said she went to America, but it
could have been he she actually ran away with a
guy and just ended up there and did write the
letter because she was really good to change on her
name too. Yeah she had multiple names. But like, we
(36:46):
don't know what happens. Oh my god, Now I feel
so bad for saying, well, we really just recorded two
episodes of men who were most likely innocent, who are
one we know of at the time of recording gets
a death sentence. We don't know about the other. But yeah,
(37:06):
it's oh my god, that's so fucking sad. He like
literally was killed. Oh yeah, he was for this crime
that they've proven that he didn't do. So that's why
today we like people say, oh, well we have all
these appeals, da da da. This is why. Here's the thing.
The it took over a century to get technology to
(37:28):
catch up to prove first of all, it wasn't Cora.
It wasn't even a woman. And I mean I would
be freaked out too if I were him, and I
would run because they're not gonna believe you. You're a
foreign citizen. Her friends are saying that you something's fishy. Man, dude,
(37:49):
you know, and she could have ran away because you can.
There's no fault, divorces. Why do I feel so bad
about this? This was so long ago, but it's so
sad because it shouldn't have happened. This is so interestingly enough,
I'm reading a book about interpreting difficult histories, and the
(38:10):
thing is, we have to look at things that make
us uncomfortable. Why does it make us uncomfortable? Because this
man did nothing wrong that we know of, and he
still get paid the ultimate price. Well, he gets persecuted
in the press. Yeah, he gets tracked down. He's just
trying to get away from a bad situation, gets followed,
(38:31):
taken back, murdered by the state. Damn, and everybody for
over a hundred years thinks he did it. I thought
he did it. It's a very convincing story that it
makes sense. It was very.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Convincing the entire time until you threw that little fucking
curve ball at the end.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
But like I told you exactly how that could have happened,
and it made sense in my mind because we've seen that, right. Yeah,
but then it's like, holy fuck, yeah, DNA testing will
go a long way. Not a fucking chick.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It was a dude, like like a signed at birth dude.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah, and pretty much this all happens in two thousand
and seven. Wow. Yeah, So it's a.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Has any like I don't know how far you dug
into it after that, but has any of his family
come forward aside from his son about the bones, but
like with any other information or like whatever happened to
Ethel or anything, or if.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Anybody has ever said anything else about this Cora woman. No.
And here's the thing. It's it's one of those where
it it's yeah, it's the closest relative who's still alive,
so it couldn't made great grandson or whatever, but it's
they we aren't getting a lot of help from Scotland
(40:05):
Yard and all of that. They're not wanting to give
it over. So I'm on the Wikipedia page. I know,
oh man, it's rough, but it's like I'm looking at
they have a lot of good citations, so it could
be one of those things where because of the media pressure,
they go for the easiest one. The husband did it. Yeah,
(40:26):
but we yeah, we don't. No, it's really sad. Yeah, Okay,
so they have a couple different things, so a lot
of people are like, really, is he going to actually
like put him in the base in the basement. There
(40:50):
is a theory that Krippen was carrying out illegal abortions
and the Torso was from one of the patients who
died and not his wife. But now we know it's
a man based on like that stuff, right, and also
rumors spread really easy. Another theory put forward that the
torso was Bell's former lover, killed by Belle herself due
to her having a short temper infuse in psychiatic behavior
(41:11):
in Kripain may or may not have known about it,
but there's no citation on that one. But yeah, it's
one of those things where we're never gonna know. We're
never gonna know, but we do know that somebody died
for no reason, yep. And we do know as of
and that's going to be from an article in the
(41:31):
UK that in December two thousand and nine the UK's
Criminal Case Review Commission reviewed the case declared that the
Court of Appeal will not hear the pardon. So but
it isn't a lot of uh you know, Agatha Christie,
there's a lot of references to it because there, right,
(41:53):
it is very much a OJ trial of that time period.
It's unfortunate because a woman went missing and then this couple.
Granted it's the mistress and the husband.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
I know, but whatever, Yeah, like that that shit, yeah
you shouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
But like that doesn't warrant somebody dying. No, like and
I mean granted at the time, the fact that what
it's he gets sentenced, Uh, it's done October twenty second,
and it he's getting killed the November twenty third. Yeah,
(42:39):
that's fucking fast. So we do have, you know, be
grateful for the appeal system now, the mandatory appeals. But yeah,
it's still rough. So yeah, that's the case of doctor
Crippen and his missing wife Cora. So fucking wild. Let's
(42:59):
go back and continue Courtney's fun journey into horror movies.
I did watch Night of the Living Dead, which you
did recommend from eighty or nineteen sixty eight. I first
of all favorite part is they're coming for you, bar
(43:19):
Bra very early on, very fun. I love we immediately
there is no build up. They are driving, they go
to the cemetery and there are zombies immediately. It is
very much giving black man in America with the most functional,
competent person being the one black gentleman. He survives till
(43:46):
the end. He's the final girl. He is the final
girl until you know the world comes in. Well, yeah,
I mean that'll get you every time. And then yeah,
and that was that was a time. But yeah, that
that was That was thoughts. It was fine. It's pretty
(44:07):
slow moving. I don't remember recommending that one to you.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
I think maybe I said that I had seen the original,
but it had been a long time. But I also
think that when I texted you that I was thinking
of Sean of.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
The Dead, which I have seen. I did very much
enjoy Sean.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I think I was thinking of that when you mentioned
it to me, and then I realized it later.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
So maybe I am working on this list. It is
very long. Again, I will send send recommendations to her. Yeah,
well at Nature Versus Narcisism at gmail dot com. Heather
will will make a nice little thing well, Heather, we'll
post the list. It is a time, it is an time.
(44:51):
I'm working on it. It will be a year long
endeavor and we'll, you know, maybe get back here next
year and it'll might be on Patreon. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah, I mean, you know, we definitely got to start
pooling these clips and just mash them all together and
see which ones you watched.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Yeah, but in this case, you want to go in.
Oh yeah, ye all right, Well that that sucked. Thanks
a lot for ruining my night. You're welcome until next time.
Stay inside, stay alive, and get on the faster steamer honestly.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
No literally, and then you can get away from the cops,
especially when you did nothing fucking wrong.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah, and get a macaroni telegram. Yeah, everybody, Yeah, everybody, Ye,
thank you.
Welcome back to nature versus narcissism.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
As always, I'm your host, Heather, and today I have Corney.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I'm back, bitches, She's always back. It's like she never leaves.
I mean, I could be living in your walls. You
don't know. Basically, the people know the stairs. That's what
I feel. There's not a lot of space under your stairs.
I would it be the body closet in Jason's office. Well,
the people know the stairs actually live in the walls. Also,
the frogging. I can't watch a lot of that show
(00:45):
because I get paranoid, and you're my backup plan of
shit goes down, So I know Apocalypse A waiting. Yeah, yeah,
the plan is I make the food. You guys defend me.
There's dogs. I'm fine with this planned. We're all fine
with it. I won't be able to bring all the
plants here, but that's fine. I will accept the loss.
(01:06):
I mean, we have a whole room we don't use.
It's fine. But anyway, in case you were wondering about
our survival plan, this plan came about in COVID times. Yes,
I exchanged I believe goods. I think the first no.
I exchanged biscuits and gravy for masks. That's true, and
then you gave us soup. Yeah, I was bored as
(01:28):
shit and I like to cook and I don't know
how to cook for one person.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
And she would leave it outside of our apartment door
that's locked at all times. Well at the time when
we lived there, it was locked, so she would like
leave it and then she would text us from her
car and be like, are you going to get it?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
We're like, yeah, I would know. I would scurry away.
I'd be outside. I would scurry away far enough away.
You would leave, you would pick it up, you would
leave a present. We did a little exchange. It was fine.
It does seem like I'm a fan that you are
trying to appease or I'm trying to appease you. I
don't know which way something happened. Yeah, it's like I'm
(02:06):
trying to, like, you know, summon moth Man by through treats.
But yeah, anyways, let's con Oh sorry, okay, well yeah,
many are trying to get through more. Come on. Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Many of our longtime listeners know that each spooky season
we like to throw a bit of a curveball and
share a series with you.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
That doesn't quite follow the main feed format. Courtney is
guzzling some more head soda. Oh wow, that really is
the sour just hit way more this time. Yeah, I
bet you chugged it. I'm not mad. This year is
no different.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
This year, we're aiming to bring you at least one
main Feed episode per day, even if it's late. I'm sorry,
my brain doesn't operate.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
As well as I would like it to. Heather has
to leave the house for work now.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, and I just don't have time, and I'm really trying.
But we'll also sprinkle some Patreon episodes throughout, including video ones,
so you'll be getting those. And then this year we're
also bringing you a story that is either a bottle
crime or has a crime connection to each day in October,
and today we're discussing the connection with October twenty second. Actually,
(03:10):
we're really mixing it up this time because Cortney is
bringing the case and I get to listen.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I know, it's so cool. It's, you know, like we
were Heather's looking in a haunted mirror instead of her
giving the podcast episode. It's me. I will say, I
actually already knew about this case because I didn't know
shit about it, so it was exciting. Was obsessed with
this show. It was a British show on Netflix. I'm
(03:38):
pretty sure they were just putting it on Netflix that
they didn't Netflix going to make it called murder Maps. Yeah,
for people who don't know me, I love a good map.
I get fascinated by them, new old, different projections. It's
a fun time. So I had heard about this case,
(03:59):
and but first, before we delve into it, why are
we talking about October twenty second? Mainly because it's not
going to come up very quickly, and it's really because
the case will essentially conclude on October twenty second. That's okay,
there's still a connection, right, Yeah, the crime's not occurring
on that date, and I wanted to put that out
(04:19):
there first because because I feel like the I feel
like a lot of them occur on the date, and
this is not that fair. So we're going to talk
about doctor Crippen. The name alone, very fun name, and
actually it has a nice little twisty twist that you're
not going to expect at the end, which I didn't
(04:40):
know about until now. So that was a very fun
time for me. You can always learn new things about
old cases, right, right, So doctor Crippen is going to
move from the UK, move to the UK, and he's
going to work it as a homeopathic doctor in London.
He's gonna move there with his flamboyant and flirtatious wife, Cora.
(05:03):
It's always a Cora who is going to be known
by her stage name Belle Elmore. Jesus, Okay, Honestly, today,
if you told me someone's name was Belle Elmore, I
would think they were a drag queen and a fabulous
one at that. Oh okay, I can see that either way.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Cora and Bell are very pretty names, very very like
flirtatious names.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
If ye't ask me, she is a struggling music hall singer. Okay,
But who is doctor Crippen? No? Literally, Doctor Crippen is
born in Clearwater, Michigan. Cold Water. I can't read now.
I've had to read all day and now you're making
me read and talk more like it's not my job
(05:43):
five days a week. Holly Crippen is born in Coldwater, Michigan. Boom,
just for the state of Michigan. He's going to be
the only that is just for Brittany. That's just for Brittany.
On Ohio all the time, and as someone who has
(06:04):
lived in other states, how dare you? We're not that bad.
I don't actually hate Michigan either. Michigan's not that bad.
He's gonna be the only surviving child to Andres Skinner
and Myron Augustus Crippen. My god, these names are so fancy.
That's a vibe. He's gonna go to the University of
(06:25):
Michigan's Homopathy School and then graduate from Cleveland Homopathy Medical
College in eighteen eighty four. His first wife, Charlotte Jane,
is going to die of a stroke in eighteen ninety two. Geez.
Then Crippen will entrust his parents, who are living in
San Jose, California at the time, with the care of
(06:48):
his son, Holly Otto, because he's like, nah fam.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Also, when she's saying Holly, it's spelled hawl Y, not hoy.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, that's how I'm guessing, pronounced Holly Holly. I don't
want to put the a too hard and have the
Midwestern really slip my Cleveland accent really slip out. You're good,
but like, what a what a fucking shame?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Though, Like so his wife dies of a stroke and
then he's like, I can't take care of my kid anymore.
Here go off to grandma and Grandpa's house.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Not uncommon, I know, but that's just frus kid. He
just lost both parents. I'm so sorry. Did you hear that?
That was my stomach? No, it's digesting. Oh Jesus no.
So it's not uncommon at the time, especially if it's
a father. Yeah, even a mother if you have several kids,
(07:40):
because it's expensive and if you don't have the capacity,
it was considered normal and they're still raised by a
family member, So it could have been like, you know,
a grandparent, an aunt and uncle, a sibling, something like that,
where they have the means or at least sometimes it's
like he's a doctor, he's They're like, it's probably because
(08:02):
they're like, your career is gonna go better if you
don't have a kid. He is qualified as a homeopath.
Krippin is gonna move to New York City and start
a practice there. In eighteen ninety four, he marries his
second wife, Karne Cora Turner actually born I'm a butcher.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
The oh, I don't know how you're gonna say it.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Kira Gundytt Makakowski it's Polish. I'm pretty sure you butchered it.
But I would I butchered it, but I you're trying.
I it's hard. Polish isn't a language normally. I known
names and who at the time is a music hall
(08:44):
singer performing under the name Belle Elmore, and we see
why it's very a much more americanized name. In that
same year, Crippen is gonna turn to working for a
prominsed homeopath, James and Muya, and he's gonna move to
London with his wife in eighteen ninety seven in order
(09:05):
to manage Mullian's branch office there. Okay, so basically just
transferring between offices. Yeah, However, Crippen's medical qualifiation talking is hard.
I like, I don't do it for a profession. Crippen's
medical qualifications in the US actually do not transfer over
(09:28):
into the UK, so he's not qualified as a doctor.
That would fucking suck.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Like going to school to be a medical doctor already
is so long and grueling, and then to find out
that your shit doesn't transfer, you're.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Gonna start all over fucking suck. I think for certain things,
maybe doctor, lawyer, nurse, you have to take the boards
in different stuff. Oh I know. Oh yeah, yeah, so
it'd kind of be like that.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yes and no, because like if your credits don't transfer,
not only are you doing the boards and that area,
you have to redo some courses too, right, I bet you.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
He probably just had to do some like shadowing and stuff.
It probably might be something like that. So to continue working,
Crippen works as a distributor of patent medicines and Cora
embarks on her what will be a failed stage career
and start socializing with a number of various theater players
(10:25):
of the time she was trying. They're both trying to
make this work. Yeah. Crippen will be sacked by Munion
in eighteen ninety nine, as he worked for other patent
medicine companies, He's ultimately going to be hired on as
the manager for the Druet Institute for the Death. While
(10:46):
he's working there, he'll hire ethel Lenova. I'm gonna say
that's how it's pronounced. She is going to be a
typist for them in nineteen hundred. By nineteen oh five,
we know that they're having an affair.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Oh boy, yeah, oh goodness, this isn't good.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
No, already No, Crippen is gonna live various places around London,
but finally they're going to move. Him and his wife
are going to move into number thirty nine Hilltop Crescent,
Camden Road, Holloway. They're going to look for lodgers to
supplement Crippen's meager incomes. Can remember Cora is not doing
(11:25):
well with her theater ca Yeah, don't worry, Cora is
gonna have an affair with one of these lodgers. Well,
you know what if they're giving her some monies. Here's
the Having lodgers is pretty common in this time. No,
I know, but yeah, it's but what if she's getting
extra monies. Oh, you're saying she's doing a side hustle. Yes,
she's doing her only fans. Yes, before we had only lodgers.
(11:51):
Haven't you heard of it? I have not ask her.
She'll tell you all about it. Get a beautiful kind
of OnlyFans thing. But it's it's like the vintage colors
only lodgers. I'll sign up. I don't know what I'll
show you, but I'll sign up. I'll show you some
nice plants. Don't worry. Crippen is fully taking Liniv as
(12:16):
his mistress. In nineteen oh eight.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Oh, I'm sure it's gonna yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So this is a true crime podcast. Where is the crime?
You may be asking. I'm ready for it. I can
feel it already in my bones. Yes, Heather can see.
You can't see listeners because this is not a visual medium.
My notes say the crime question mark because there's gonna
be some questions. Oh shit, we know on February first,
(12:52):
nineteen ten, Cora Crippen vanishes. Oh I'm sorry, Okay, it's
so weird that you say so long ago. But in
my head I'm like, ah, yes, that was yesterday. I
act like they don't talk about the turn of the
century five days a week and be like, oh, yes,
all of these things happen. It just the rolodex of
(13:14):
my mind. Yeah, wow, that is a reference. Okay, sorry,
I'm February first, nineteen ten vanished. Okay, so we know
that they had a dinner party and after that she
has never seen again. Oh my god. Crippen tells Cora's
friends that she had returned to the US to visit relatives,
(13:35):
and then soon after that she's ill and dies. Oh
He's like, bummer, I didn't even get to say goodbye.
To her. Yeah, jeez, it gets worse. I can feel it.
Asks his secretary and lover, Ethel to move in with him.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
My god, dude, this is like the biggest first mistake
that they make, like every fucking time, Like, how about we,
you know, let the dust settle and let the grass
row over the fucking grave first before you move the
bitch in. Oh, it's like you're looking very sauce. My guy,
it's within a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
This is ridiculous, Like are they stupid? It's so messy,
so messy, it's so messy. It's like my fucking messy
ass case. On the fifteenth of October, like these guys.
On top of it, Ethel starts openly wearing Cora's clothes
and jewelry. Motherfuckers.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Dude, it's one thing to have, like her car sitting
in the driveway or whatever, to fucking horse buggy, I
don't fucking know.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
It's one thing to have that kind of stuff. But
now you're wearing her jewelry and her clothes.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
You have to remember, she's just assuming her identity, so
it is her name Belle.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Also, now maybe you have to remember too. At this time,
everybody wore the same size. I get it. No, No,
it's not that your clothes are more expensive, so you're
not gonna have as many articles of clothing. I'm not
gonna wear a dead gals clothes. I'm just thrift. I
wear a lot of dead people's intentionally. I don't like that.
(15:06):
They no, like, she knows the bitch died, she knows
that her boy, her boothing fucking killed her. I know
she knows. Okay, and she's moving in and she's she's
fucking wearing her clothes. It's sick. It's sick. Sorry, I'm
very heated about this for some reason. It's sick. I
was just gonna say it would also be noticeable because
(15:29):
if you don't have as many articles, you're gonna be
like that's bells. Yeah yeah, Lizzy Maguire, you're an outfit
for Peter. Oh my god, I love that. So the
police are first going to hear of chorus appearance disappearance
from her friend, and I should say we're in the
(15:50):
beginning part of policing, so this is always a wild
trip from the strong woman Kate Volcana Williams. Okay, get it, girl,
and they're gonna take it more seriously when asked to
investigate by her two other friends. So her she got
good friends, Yeah, she does. Like this bitch is missing. Yeah.
(16:12):
The actress lil Hawthorne and her husband, manager John Nash,
they're going to press their acquaintance. The Scotland Yard superintendent
forced into looking into it. So Detective Inspector Walter du
talks to Crippen in.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
July, why don't we have cool names like this now, Walter, dude,
did he make Mountain Dew?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I don't know he has the same name, mind you.
Cora disappears at the beginning of February. We're going to July. Yeah,
it's been a minute. So Crippen talks to do and
he says Cora leaves him for another man, and he's embarrassed,
so he lies to her friends to save face, and
they're like, oh, we get it. Ego sorry, He's like,
(17:00):
He's like, I didn't want them. I didn't want everyone
to know because you have to remember now, it would
be embarrassing at that time. It could wreck your career. Yeah,
so against you know, it's one of those things. They
questioned him. They look around a little bit. They leave.
A couple days later, They're like, we got more questions.
They show up, Crippen and Ethel are gone. They disappear. Whoops.
(17:27):
So Crippen is so freaked out by the questioning he
and Ethyl grab their stuff head to Brussels. Ethyl is
disguised as a boy, and I will say, as someone
who loves history, I love when people cross dressed to
get away. Normally it's like kings, dukes and stuff dressing
as a woman to escape. But I love a good
(17:49):
cross dress to escape.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It's very fun. So did mount Did Ethel wear Crippen's clothes?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Then? I don't know. They didn't say, well, they just
said she was dressed as a boy. Meanwhile, back in London,
police are gonna search. He'll crop, he'll drop crescent and
inside they're gonna find the gruesome remains of a body
beneath the coal cellar. What I thought she was in
(18:16):
the US, you know she's she never fucking laughed. So again,
this is where it's gonna get a little gruesome. Gonna
be wrapped in a male's pajama jacket later identified as Crippen's.
There is no head, no limbs, no bones, no genitals,
but there is a trace of poison that Crippen was
(18:38):
discovered to have bought not long before Cora's disappearance. The
public is riveted and they are demanding answers. So naturally
the press is also demanding answers. Yes, I mean think
about it. No head, no limbs, no bones, and no genitals. Yeah,
(19:02):
like what did they find just for skin? Yeah, like
chunks of skin? Oh my god? Yeah, I want answers.
Where the fuck did they put all that stuff? So
because of all of this, scrutiny is put on Scotland
Yard to solve the crime and catch Crippin. Right, so
they will put the ports and train stations on watch.
(19:26):
Foreign police abroad are alerted to look from like an APB,
an international APB, right, like this guy is dangerous, Like
we may be dressed as a woman. Well, I don't
think you don't know that it's time. But so it's
one of those things too where they're like he's wanted
in the question of the disappearance of his wife and
there's a body found in his house.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Right, No, No, there's a pieces a body, chunks of
body that we don't know where the rest of it
is called chunks of bodies.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I mean it could be so. Additionally, a young Winston
Churchill war criminal Winston Churchill, then Britain's Home Secretary is
immediately tracking the investigation as well, because you have to
remember the police in the UK are under the Home Secretary. Okay,
(20:18):
so that's completely within his purview. It wouldn't be like
our Secretary of State keeping track of like the FBI.
We need an episode just on Winston Churchill. It's a time, okay.
So we know on July twentieth, Criffin and Ethel are
(20:38):
going to sail from Antwerp for Canada on the liner Montrose.
He's going to call himself weirdly Robinson. What sorry, Heather
and I have just recorded October seventeenth with his name
is very close, very close to that. And Ethel is
going to pose as his teenage son again as a boy.
(21:00):
Well yeah, because you don't want him being seen with
a woman. You're look for a couple. But if it's
a father son, yeah, not as weird. Yeah, oh my god,
this this stressed me. However, they raise suspicions when they're
behaving too lovingly together, which yeah, it is weird. Come over,
(21:22):
your son, let me give you a big smooch. The
captain is Hella suspicious and will inform the ship's owner
by telegraph. Yeah, I believe it's the Macaroni telegraph I
saw somewhere and that just makes me smile every time.
God pasta again, I've been talking about pasta. Oh God.
(21:46):
The owners are then going to pass that word on
to Scotland Yard and Do is actually gonna get on
another steamer to pursue them. He's gonna get on a
faster boat. It's a boat and am I kidding you?
It's literally a boat race. He's gonna get on a
faster liner, the Laurentic, and it's gonna reach Father Point
(22:10):
in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence ahead of the Montrose. Yeah. Him,
he literally just he was like, I need to go
faster than that guy. What you got? Yeah, pretty much.
It's insane. So Do is waiting for them. He gets
on the pilot vessel that's gonna like bring the Montrose
(22:32):
into port right to arrest Cripin and ethel. So just
imagine you think you've gotten a way, you're in Canada.
You're gonna be safe, all of us, Like motherfuckers, I
got you all of a sudden're gett getting ready to
go into port, and somebody else comes on the boat
and you see him and you just.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Go, oh shit, I'm surprisident jump off the boat, like
into the water.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Oh no, it's so high, you would it's they would die. Yeah,
but I'm surprisedident try at this point. Yeah, so dou
said afterwards he had never in his life felt such
a sense of triumph and achievement. Well, yeah, you deserved it.
They're all gonna be on the Mantrose, which goes on
(23:12):
to Quebec. Quebec. Sorry, I don't want to say that.
Weird also accompanied by reporters who had swarmed on board.
That's amazing. So we always are like we need the story.
Here's the thing that always makes me laugh when people
are like true crimes like out of hand.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I know it's been out of hand. We just didn't
have people documenting me out of hand.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
It's also if you look at it this way, it's
very much just human nature to be curious, look true crime,
at these horrible things, and you're just like, how does
this happen? All of that, and so do regarded the
press as an infernal nuisance and don't Yeah, so a nuisense.
(24:10):
But the dramatic story that George Orwell said that no
novelists would have dared to create make up created a
frenzy of excitement and pressed.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So basically he's saying this, it's so crazy that would
not have even made you know.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Like more of the worlds and all of that, George Orwell,
they decided not to try the pair together. Crippen is
going to face his trial first, and once that verdict
had been determined, Ethel would be on the dock to
be tried as an accessory, so that she should Yeah, well,
(24:46):
here's the thing, we don't actually really know what happened.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I believe that they butchered her and hit her and
then stole her clothes and then fled.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
That's what I believe. So on October eighteenth, Rippon stands
alone in the docket at the Old Bailey, which no
longer exists, before the Lord Chief Justice of England, Lord Alverstone,
God these names, and this would proceed until October twenty second. Today.
(25:19):
The defense is simple. The body in the cellar of
his home is not Bells. What it's not Corra's no,
you lie, why you wolis lie in the body must
have been of some poor unknown woman and have been
placed in there before he and Bell had moved in,
and they didn't smell it, and it was still intact
(25:42):
when they found it, Like it wasn't that long that
her body was dead, Like that she'd been dead, you
know what I mean, a couple of months. I don't know.
I'm not buying it, So they push that is crucial
for the prosecution to prove it is Bell.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
So well, we don't have her head anymore, we don't
have her limbs anymore, we don't have any identifying factors
except for the fact that she had skin case closed.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
There is one piece of flesh found in this shallow
grave that bore a scar, and medical records did show
Belle has a scar on her lower abdomen. Oh yeah.
Even more conclusive was the fact that the remains had
been wrapped in a pajama jacket, and inside the jacket
was a tag that leads to the manufacturers, the Jones brothers,
(26:35):
not Jonas but Jones Jones. Yeah, not the Jonas brothers.
They are not involved in it. Disclaimer, The Jonahs brothers
are not involved in this crime. No, they are not
even born, not even thought about their parents aren't born
or thought about that. Yeah, so the manufacturers confirmed that
that particular coth and pattern had not been issued until
(26:57):
late nineteen oh eight. Oh burn bitches facts science proving
that the body had to have been placed after that.
This in the scar was consistent with the body of
being Belle Elmore. So they're like, told you get this scar,
We got this stuff. It has to be be Oh
(27:18):
my god. They are exhausting. Additionally, there are medical tests
on the flesh that contain traces of hydroccene, a poison.
We know that Krippen purchases five grains of the substance
on January seventeenth, two weeks before Bell had vanished. Oh no,
the jury takes us all in talks for thirty minutes
(27:40):
to find Crippen guilty of his wife's death.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Well, the facts are there, Yeah, the evidence is there.
So they're like, we have places to be.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
We had to catch that boat. It's the slow one. Yeah,
we don't have money for the fast boat. So we
still have Ethel's trial and and that starts on October
twenty fifth as an accessory for murder, and she is
found not guilty. A subsequent appeal on behalf of Crippen
is going to be dismissed, and he had been sentenced
(28:12):
to death, so that sentence is confirmed at that point. Okay,
So on Wednesday, November twenty third, nineteen ten, the forty
eight year old Crippen is going to be hung at
Pennville Pentonville by John Ellis and William Willis. These names,
(28:34):
these are just made up names at this point. I
think over the years people have just added and taken
away from the story, and they're like, we think William
Willis would be a fun name. You want know. The
sad thing is the Okay, so they're probably all the
actual names. Well, fine, he does have a last request
and it is for a photograph of ethel in some
of her letters to be buried with him in an
(28:56):
unmarked grave. And those were granted. It was antid But
did it happen. Probably not. No, They're like, we don't
fucking care about you. Yeah, just did it, that's what
they said. Did we approve. Yeah, they said that the
wish was granted, But did it happen? Yeah? They could
have just said that they were going to and then
they did it. No, I think we know that they
(29:17):
did it. It was kind of it wasn't It was
pretty common to just follow it through with that stuff. Wow,
so I have it. So do you think you did it? Yes,
(29:38):
let's do that before we yes, So most people would
have said yes up until pretty recently.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Don't fucking don't fucking do this again, Corney, you did
this on the last episode.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
You did the curveball. I'm not head for it. I
want to know did he murder her? Heather? What is
the title of the next section. I don't want to
look now, just modern day science question mark. And this
is pulled from PBS. Oh my god, I'm so sick
of this show. Quit quote. The Crippen case was the
(30:12):
OJ Simpson case of nineteen Oh my god, the golf
didn't fit. I don't think any murder in history had
been covered that much in newspapers. It was being read
about all over the world. Quote. So that's from forensic
tox ecologists John Trescill and he is one of the
key investigators who revisited the Crippen case.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
So are they not busy enough that they don't have
cases they can just work on. They have to go
all the way back in history like this, Like, come on,
there's plenty.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Of unsolved cases. Let's solve them. Don't go drudge this
up when we know he did it. It could also
be an interesting case study, though, like to do for
cases modern day cases.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yes, but now you're gonna tell me that he didn't
do it.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
It's a poisonous expert who is troubled by its circum
circumstantial evidence. He had never heard of a poisoning case
where then the perpetrator had dismembered his victims. That's because
poisoners usually did all they did to make the death
look like an accident. Yeah, it's usually a woman who poisons,
(31:21):
but even guys who do it, Like, why would you
poison them? And then get like make it look like
a murder?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Well he didn't he hit what No, here's my theory
and I'm not even looking at the rest of your
shit yet. This motherfucker was like, this bitch is getting
on my nerves, like she's not working. I have Ethyl now,
I just want to be with Ethyl, and it's too
hard to get rid of her.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Whatever their fucking issues.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Were, Right, he poisons her and then he's like, ah, shit,
I gotta get rid of the body.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
So then he dismembers her, and then he's really enjoying
the dismembering, so then he starts taking the bones out
and doing all this other fucking ship and then he's like,
oh my god, now I just have the skin flaps
and chunks left over. What do I do with that?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So he wraps it up in his fucking little pajama
jacket and then buries it under the fucking house. Yeah,
it started out as a poisoning. And then he's like, ship,
how do I get rid of the evidence? Boom case soft?
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Okay, you're you're gonna mythbust this, aren't you? A little bit?
I hate this show. I hated here. Somebody please make
(32:40):
a sticker for theather. This this show. I hate the show.
It's your show. I hate this house. It's your hated here.
Ah so stressed out, sorry Okay, asked the questions if
had committed X, why would he have disposed of so
(33:02):
much of the body but then just left a few
incriminating pieces behind to see let me out of time.
So because of these questions and analysis of the court records,
he then takes on new forensic testing of the physical
evidence that still remains of the crime. Scene. Treuscill will
travel between the US and England to piece together details
(33:24):
of the infamous crime, working closely with DNA expert Farran
and the genealogist Willis along the way, so Fran's doctor.
Fran's team works in his forensic biology lab at Michigan
State University to compare DNA from the one hundred year
old tissue to modern DNA from relatives of Cora that
(33:45):
Willis has managed to struck down. They expected, much like
you think, to confirm that it is Cora's body, but
instead the DNA does not match. Even more, start hating
so much. It's not even a woman, it's a man.
(34:05):
It's a male victim. Well they did say the genitals
were cut off. Oh my gosh, so the body does
not belong to Cora. Trescill begins to dig deeper into
the police in court archives, and he slowly unravels a
series of suppress documents. What among them is a letter
(34:29):
from Crippen, or to Crippen from Cora, in which she
claims she is living in America and has no plans
to save him from execution. While the letter is deemed
a hoax by investigators, it was never even shown to
Crippen or his lawyers. Was it possible that police tampered
with evidence used in the trial? Hold the fuck up?
(34:52):
Hold on, she's literally holding the wall. The house is
falling down. Hold on, So thought you hated to hear this.
This bitch knows. This bitch is in the US, and.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
She knows that he is being framed for her murder,
and she writes him a letter, supposedly, so we don't they.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
What the letter is deemed a hoax, but it's never
shown to write. It's suppressed. Well, so the investigators, the
modern investigators, it seems like. But still this is wild. Yeah,
was it Coorra's lover? Here's the thing we don't know.
(35:38):
So there's all these new filings findings. Remember Crippen had
a son from the previous marriage. So James Patrick Crippen,
who is the closest living male relative to Crippen, is
actually formally requesting the British government part in the doctor
and return his bones to America. We do know. Before
(36:00):
and is executed, he wrote an eerily prophetic letter to Ethel.
In it, he says, quote face to face with God,
I believe that the facts will be forecoming to prove
my innocence end quote, and forensic science has determined he
was correct. We do not know what happened to Kora.
She could have possibly been living in America and died.
(36:23):
We don't know, and the lie detective test determined that
was not a lie. So all we know is Coorra
was missing. He said she went to America, but it
could have been he she actually ran away with a
guy and just ended up there and did write the
letter because she was really good to change on her
name too. Yeah she had multiple names. But like, we
(36:46):
don't know what happens. Oh my god, Now I feel
so bad for saying, well, we really just recorded two
episodes of men who were most likely innocent, who are
one we know of at the time of recording gets
a death sentence. We don't know about the other. But yeah,
(37:06):
it's oh my god, that's so fucking sad. He like
literally was killed. Oh yeah, he was for this crime
that they've proven that he didn't do. So that's why
today we like people say, oh, well we have all
these appeals, da da da. This is why. Here's the thing.
The it took over a century to get technology to
(37:28):
catch up to prove first of all, it wasn't Cora.
It wasn't even a woman. And I mean I would
be freaked out too if I were him, and I
would run because they're not gonna believe you. You're a
foreign citizen. Her friends are saying that you something's fishy. Man, dude,
(37:49):
you know, and she could have ran away because you can.
There's no fault, divorces. Why do I feel so bad
about this? This was so long ago, but it's so
sad because it shouldn't have happened. This is so interestingly enough,
I'm reading a book about interpreting difficult histories, and the
(38:10):
thing is, we have to look at things that make
us uncomfortable. Why does it make us uncomfortable? Because this
man did nothing wrong that we know of, and he
still get paid the ultimate price. Well, he gets persecuted
in the press. Yeah, he gets tracked down. He's just
trying to get away from a bad situation, gets followed,
(38:31):
taken back, murdered by the state. Damn, and everybody for
over a hundred years thinks he did it. I thought
he did it. It's a very convincing story that it
makes sense. It was very.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Convincing the entire time until you threw that little fucking
curve ball at the end.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
But like I told you exactly how that could have happened,
and it made sense in my mind because we've seen that, right. Yeah,
but then it's like, holy fuck, yeah, DNA testing will
go a long way. Not a fucking chick.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It was a dude, like like a signed at birth dude.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah, and pretty much this all happens in two thousand
and seven. Wow. Yeah, So it's a.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Has any like I don't know how far you dug
into it after that, but has any of his family
come forward aside from his son about the bones, but
like with any other information or like whatever happened to
Ethel or anything, or if.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Anybody has ever said anything else about this Cora woman. No.
And here's the thing. It's it's one of those where
it it's yeah, it's the closest relative who's still alive,
so it couldn't made great grandson or whatever, but it's
they we aren't getting a lot of help from Scotland
(40:05):
Yard and all of that. They're not wanting to give
it over. So I'm on the Wikipedia page. I know,
oh man, it's rough, but it's like I'm looking at
they have a lot of good citations, so it could
be one of those things where because of the media pressure,
they go for the easiest one. The husband did it. Yeah,
(40:26):
but we yeah, we don't. No, it's really sad. Yeah, Okay,
so they have a couple different things, so a lot
of people are like, really, is he going to actually
like put him in the base in the basement. There
(40:50):
is a theory that Krippen was carrying out illegal abortions
and the Torso was from one of the patients who
died and not his wife. But now we know it's
a man based on like that stuff, right, and also
rumors spread really easy. Another theory put forward that the
torso was Bell's former lover, killed by Belle herself due
to her having a short temper infuse in psychiatic behavior
(41:11):
in Kripain may or may not have known about it,
but there's no citation on that one. But yeah, it's
one of those things where we're never gonna know. We're
never gonna know, but we do know that somebody died
for no reason, yep. And we do know as of
and that's going to be from an article in the
(41:31):
UK that in December two thousand and nine the UK's
Criminal Case Review Commission reviewed the case declared that the
Court of Appeal will not hear the pardon. So but
it isn't a lot of uh you know, Agatha Christie,
there's a lot of references to it because there, right,
(41:53):
it is very much a OJ trial of that time period.
It's unfortunate because a woman went missing and then this couple.
Granted it's the mistress and the husband.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
I know, but whatever, Yeah, like that that shit, yeah
you shouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
But like that doesn't warrant somebody dying. No, like and
I mean granted at the time, the fact that what
it's he gets sentenced, Uh, it's done October twenty second,
and it he's getting killed the November twenty third. Yeah,
(42:39):
that's fucking fast. So we do have, you know, be
grateful for the appeal system now, the mandatory appeals. But yeah,
it's still rough. So yeah, that's the case of doctor
Crippen and his missing wife Cora. So fucking wild. Let's
(42:59):
go back and continue Courtney's fun journey into horror movies.
I did watch Night of the Living Dead, which you
did recommend from eighty or nineteen sixty eight. I first
of all favorite part is they're coming for you, bar
(43:19):
Bra very early on, very fun. I love we immediately
there is no build up. They are driving, they go
to the cemetery and there are zombies immediately. It is
very much giving black man in America with the most functional,
competent person being the one black gentleman. He survives till
(43:46):
the end. He's the final girl. He is the final
girl until you know the world comes in. Well, yeah,
I mean that'll get you every time. And then yeah,
and that was that was a time. But yeah, that
that was That was thoughts. It was fine. It's pretty
(44:07):
slow moving. I don't remember recommending that one to you.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
I think maybe I said that I had seen the original,
but it had been a long time. But I also
think that when I texted you that I was thinking
of Sean of.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
The Dead, which I have seen. I did very much
enjoy Sean.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I think I was thinking of that when you mentioned
it to me, and then I realized it later.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
So maybe I am working on this list. It is
very long. Again, I will send send recommendations to her. Yeah,
well at Nature Versus Narcisism at gmail dot com. Heather
will will make a nice little thing well, Heather, we'll
post the list. It is a time, it is an time.
(44:51):
I'm working on it. It will be a year long
endeavor and we'll, you know, maybe get back here next
year and it'll might be on Patreon. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah, I mean, you know, we definitely got to start
pooling these clips and just mash them all together and
see which ones you watched.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Yeah, but in this case, you want to go in.
Oh yeah, ye all right, Well that that sucked. Thanks
a lot for ruining my night. You're welcome until next time.
Stay inside, stay alive, and get on the faster steamer honestly.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
No literally, and then you can get away from the cops,
especially when you did nothing fucking wrong.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah, and get a macaroni telegram. Yeah, everybody, Yeah, everybody, Ye,
thank you.
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The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.