October 29, 2024 • 38 mins
Day 27 of the Crimetober Series is about the mass shooting at Fort Bragg, which occurred on October 27, 1995.
I apologize for the late release
Sources
https://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/13/us/paratrooper-sentenced-to-death-for-sniper-attack-at-fort-bragg.html
https://www.army.mil/article-amp/18701/judge_sets_sentence_for_bragg_shooting_spree
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kreutzer_Jr.https://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/newcaaf/opinions/2011SepTerm/11-0231.pdf
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna29644671
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1996/05/31/family-says-army-knew-of-sons-troubles/b09fe454-0848-4abb-81b6-f2679e87e8ac/
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/caaf/04-5006-AR/04-5006-AR-2005-08-16.html
https://abc11.com/archive/6704183/
https://www.fayobserver.com/story/news/military/2015/10/26/20-years-ago-chaos-at/22272995007/
I apologize for the late release
Sources
https://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/13/us/paratrooper-sentenced-to-death-for-sniper-attack-at-fort-bragg.html
https://www.army.mil/article-amp/18701/judge_sets_sentence_for_bragg_shooting_spree
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kreutzer_Jr.https://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/newcaaf/opinions/2011SepTerm/11-0231.pdf
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna29644671
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1996/05/31/family-says-army-knew-of-sons-troubles/b09fe454-0848-4abb-81b6-f2679e87e8ac/
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/caaf/04-5006-AR/04-5006-AR-2005-08-16.html
https://abc11.com/archive/6704183/
https://www.fayobserver.com/story/news/military/2015/10/26/20-years-ago-chaos-at/22272995007/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Okay, I hated this. Oh it's no, it needs to
be told because I did not know about this.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
But it's just like sah, the mass shooting.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Fuck. Oh, I've done too many of those. Okay, here's that.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
You don't have to talk about it. I have to
talk about it, all right.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Catching my breath.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Oh that's icy.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Welcome back to Nature Versus Narcissism. As always, I'm your host, Heather,
and today I have with me.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I'm back again. Bitches, it's Courtney.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Many of our longtime listeners know that each spooky season
we like to throw a bit of a curveball and
share a series with you that doesn't quite follow the
main feed for and this year is no different. This year,
we're aiming to bring you at least one main feed
episode per day, even if it's late, plus some Patreon
episodes sprinkled throughout, including the Thirteen Days of Halloween, which
you guys are very well deep into at this point
(01:15):
on Patreon. And then this year we're also bringing you
basically a story with a crime or something spooky that
has a connection to each day in October. And today
we're discussing a crime with a connection to October twenty seventh.
And the other curve ball is that Courtney did all
the research for this one, so I'm gonna kind of
hear it with you guys.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, take it away. Yes I did.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
And now I'm out of breath. I'm sorry. We have
been We've been going for like four hours.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yes, and you should all appreciate it is my Friday,
even though it's Monday, so and it is my Monday,
and it.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Had been a weekend. So we're rocketing.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
We're struggling, that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We're on the last of our drinks, so you know,
it's a good time. The dogs are trying to get in.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It's wild.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It is so happy. You got this happy October twenty seven.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yes, we're very close to Halloween. I hope you guys
have awesome plans. We'll talk about it at the end.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yes, I'm so sorry. This is sad. It's real sad.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I mean the other two that you did with me
just recently, we're fucking sad too about innocent people being
murdered and executed and almost executed.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, there's no twist on this one.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
It's just sad. I hate this podcast, so I'm just
kidding it. I hate it here, this is I hate
this show.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
This is your podcast. I hate this.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I hate it here, this is your house, this is
a taco bell here.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
This time, at least I am not slowly having the
Miami Valley perge for my system.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
So yeah, I'm just having the congestion.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, we're just switch.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
So it is the morning of October twenty seventh, nineteen
ninety five.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
There are thirteen.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Hundred paratroopers who are preparing for the Division Readiness Brigade
mission military things.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
This is the military one.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
It's uh yeah, give that disclaimer then.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yes, this is gonna be about a mass shooting. So
if you are not mentally able to deal with.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
This, please skip this up. So so we want not
be sad.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
There are heroes in this. There are also losses and
yeah and not great. It was prevetable, So let's get going.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
John Scrogan's, who is the commander of the eighty second
Airborne Division, second Brigade, gathers his troops at Tole Stadium
for a brigade run. I don't know if I'm pronouncing
that stadium's name howl.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Taw or I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I make it French.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
The soldiers are getting ready for their run and one
of their numbers actually missing, which what I know from
my friends who are in the military of various branches
is that's pretty noticeable because you're supposed to be there
early and in position and all of that. Sergeant William
Cruz is a squad leader in the Brigades fourth Battalion.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Sorry, was it Krutzer?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Krutzer? Is it Krutzer?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Kind of looks like it. Sure, Sorry, we just want
to make sure that we're giving the people the recognition. No, oh,
just kidding.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Okay, we'll we'll just redo it. Sergeant William Kreutzer, the
squad leader in the Brigades fourth Battalion, is concealed in
a fox hole next to the stadium. He's wearing his
battle dress uniform. He is armed with a fully loaded
Ruger twenty two caliber semi automatic rifle with fifty hollow
(04:58):
point high velocity rounds, pack West Arms five point five
to six millimeter semi automatic rifle, the civilian equivalent of
the Army's sixteen, and a high capacity nine millimeter Glock
seventeen semi automatic pistol.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I do not know a lot about guns.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
But that seems like a lot of guns, and a
lot of very powerful guns to have.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
So yeah, if Jason was in here right now, he
would tell you exactly what each one of those is.
But yes, I know a couple of them, and.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
They are yes.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
With Krutzer watching, Scrogans and his soldiers are on the field,
stood at attention again making sure everybody's there saluting as
the Revelry plays across the speakers at Fort Bragg, which
is where this is going to be, signaling the start
of the day. Someone who sometimes works on base I
(05:55):
will say they do play play, you know, stuff over
the speaker route the day and to signal at five
o'clock that the work the day is over.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
As the soldiers are filing out of the stadium, you know,
we've all been in that kind of situation. There's a
natural bottleneck from the bleachers and the wood in the line,
and I'm guessing this is kind of like a football stadium,
like a high school football, not like not like a
professional sitting, but.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Like something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Right, none of them would have been able to see
Krutzer lying in the dark looking at them through his
gun sights. O my god, As he opens fire, starting
with the smaller ruger. He then moves on to a
more powerful pack West Arms rifle and the soldiers they
all would know that sounds, so they know exactly what happens.
(06:47):
These interviews are taken from the Fayette Pill Observer quote
Chief Officer to Abram's Castilli was the first victim.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Shot in the neck.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
He collapsed like a rag doll, forever a quadriplegic. According
to testimony from Krutzer's nineteen ninety six court martial, Jesus
As Casilla fell, Staff Sergeant Mayathel Lewis turned to him
and was struck in the chest with Krutzer's second bullet.
The next shot came ten seconds later, when staff Sergeant
(07:17):
Robert A.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Kraeger was hit in the left side of his back.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Lying in a pool of blood, Krager screamed to his
fellow soldiers, get down, get we're let me say, acond,
get down. We're taking incoming fire, he yelled, according to
estimat investigators. So the soldiers are unsure of how many
are shooting at them, they search for cover throughout the stadium.
(07:41):
That morning, Krutzer would shoot sixteen soldiers, hitting six in
the head, neck or chest. Two others are hit in
the abdomen in our back. Krutzer then went to his vehicle,
which was close by, to get a more powerful rifle.
At that time, Scrogan's had begun to move towards the gunshots.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Remember these are trained.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Soldiers, and as soon as soon as he had heard them,
with his staff highly trained following behind him. Unfortunately for them,
Kreutzer would see them coming. Using that stronger rifle, he
takes a and strikes Major Stephen Badger in the head.
They continue to move forward and rush at Krutzer, who
(08:25):
fires at Major Guy Loferro hitting him in the stomach,
causing severe internal damage. He had killed nineteen soldiers until
five Special Forces. Until five Special Forces soldiers who had
just happened to be running near Chale Stadium at the time,
were able to tackle.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Wow, dude, what the fuck?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And I told you what was bad?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Well, And like, how fast did this happen? It seems
like within matter minutes.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's pretty fast, geez, it's really really fast. So four
are going to be Sergeant first class Edward A. Mongol,
Sergeant first class Paul Rodgers, staff Sergeant Robert Howes, and
staff Sergeant Anthony Miners their students at the John F.
Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School. The fifth soldier, Sergeant
(09:17):
first Class Elwood Johnson, is the instructor at the school's
Non Commissioned Armor Non Commissioned Officer Academy. Mongol and Minor
had actually near misses with trace A rounds as they
ran towards the shooter. Mongol reached Krutzer first tackles him
while miner sees assisted. Mongol reached Krutzer first and tackled
(09:42):
him while miner assisted him. They hold him down as
Howe's attempts to pull the rifle from his hands. During
the struggle, Krutzer would manage to fire three times and
actually hits Howels in the foot, but they got managed
to get that gun away. Roger had run to get help,
flagging down seven MPs or Military police, and then return
(10:02):
to help his fellow soldiers hold down Cruiser and search
for other weapons. Johnson meanwhile had been providing medical aid
to this serious a seriously injured soldier on the field.
All five Special Forces were honored in nineteen ninety five
with Soldiers Medals, which is the army's highest honored for
heroism outside of combat. Lafarah and Badger were also honored,
(10:24):
with Badger's widow Diane accepting on his behalf.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
So how do we get here?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Literally, Like, I don't understand what's happening. Like I obviously
I understand that he like went berser with his fucking guns,
but like, why, Like what is going on?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Stressing me out?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
They're not gonna want me back. They're like, she's real depressing.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
They're like, we only had a few days in between
each of your episodes. We don't like it anymore. Got
to be saying the same thing. I hate this show.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I hate it here my house.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So from what I've seen online, I can't find much
on his early life. We do know that his high
school principal will testify that he was quote an above
average student. Quote they always seem to be. He graduates
from the University of Maryland. Then he enters the Army
in February nineteen ninety two, and by March nineteen eighty three,
he's assigned to the three hundred and twenty fifth Airborne
(11:29):
Infantry of the eighty second Airborne Division.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Sounds important, I don't ever understand what each one of
those means.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
It's it's basically the airborne division is the bigger one,
and then it breaks down, so it's like the department
and then your group. Okay, So in January nineteen eighty four,
his unit will be deployed to the Sinai Peninsula. So
that is the peninsula next to Egypt. That little triangle bit.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
She likes maps you as you were here on the
last episode.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Map sell of geography. I have a degree in international studies.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Like, let's go. Okay, so we know.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
During his time in the army, Krutzer reported that he
was teased in the butts of practical jokes by his
fellow soldiers. Doesn't seem very uncommon for the military as
far as I know.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
There's also evidence.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
That he had told a friend he knew the number
of people killed in a rampage shooting, like the record
number of people killed, thus earned him the nickname quote
crazy Krutzer. Oh no, no, this isn't good.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Nope, this is not good.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
While he's in the Sinai in July. All right, sorry,
while he's in the Sinai Peninsula in July, I don't
want to keep wanting to say July, let's try for
a third time. While in the Sinai Peninsula in June
nineteen eighty four, Krutzer is going to break down while
on guard duty and speaks of killing, wanting to kill, kill,
(13:00):
and speaking of killing several other soldiers.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Basically, he has.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
A psychotic break Yeah, sounds like it, or at least
a breakdown and.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
A mental manifesto.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, Cruiser would be disciplined and sent to see the
division social worker. That worker reported that he suffered from
low self esteem. Yeah, he suffered from low self esteem
as well as anger management issues. They determine him not
to be a threat, but he has not allowed weapons
(13:32):
for two weeks after the incident.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
We're gonna take your toys away for two weeks. You're grounded.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Pretty much. Did not mean to hit that. Jesus so
frustrated with this case. I see so.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
The day before the October twenty seven, In the day
before the October twenty seventh incident, Krutzer would confide in
his former roommate SPC. Harlan that he really needed to
talk to Fong, who is the social worker. Again, Harlan
tries to calm him down, but again he stated it
(14:15):
was not going to be all right, So clearly he
knows he's hit his breaking point.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Yeah we know, screaming out for Helpe. It seems like, yeah,
we know.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Kritzer spends the night before gathering guns from his storage
unit off base. He was extremely frustrated with from having
to buy items for his squad's packing lists with his
own money. He believed that any items soldiers required should
be provided to them.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
But what did he require them for to shoot the
other soldiers?
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I think they were going to do drills and stuff
and like you know, the army wal have you go
do trainings and whatnot, and.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
They had their own guns for that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So he was having to provide other items. It's not
the guns. He's getting his guns because he's frustrated from
the situation.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Where okay, but that's just like when you go to
college and ship you have to provide. You have to
buy your own books, you have to pay for your tuition.
When you go study abroad, you have to pay for
some stuff like internships. Sometimes you get room on board,
but sometimes you have to pay.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Like here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Anybody in the federal government will tell you, the federal
government doesn't cover everything. Yeah, and so it's very much
you're gonna have to buy some things out of your
own money, yeah, for any government job. Right, So it's
not crazy, but.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
He just didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I think he's just frustrated with a lot of situations and.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
That's just the fun sipping one. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So Krutzer would then call the chaplain, they don't answer.
He calls the mental health professionals on Bass they are
not available.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Afterwards, he's gonna call SPC. Mays to inform him that
he planned on opening fire on the Callisenics field the
next morning.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
When May sees that Krutzer is missing from the brigade run,
he alerted his superiors, who dismissed the concern.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Oh my god, dude, there's so many opportunities to stop this.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yep. They would say that Krutzer was quote a pussy
end quote and do allow though. Mays to check Krutzer's
room and when he goes there, he finds a copy
of his The shooters will.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
How fucking unprofessional.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
That actually sounds like the military.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
To me, I know, but like he is like actively
talking about this to multiple people, all of which should
have reported it. To someone.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I don't know if his roommate old roommate did, but Mazed,
I mean May says everything. But they say basically, he's
not man enough to do it.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
That's so stupid, dude.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So Krutzer will testify.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
He spent the night in a hotel off base, he
finished loading his ammunition. He woke up at five am
the next morning, having taking four and he woke up
at five am the next morning took four pills containing
the stimulant ephira to keep him having taken four pills
(17:43):
of the stimulant ephedra to keep him alert. Oh, Krutzer
was convinced that he would be killed after the shooting.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, I mean, I can see why.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So let's get to the trial of the sentencing.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Krutzer waived his rights at the Criminal Investigation Division office.
He talked to a psychiatrist, doctor Diamond, who would point
out as afterwards that he would invoke his right to
silence in an attorney. So, I don't know what happened.
At first he was willing to talk, and then he
is not willing to talk.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
I was like, just kidding.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
He would then refuse to speak with military police. After
several psychiatrists military and civilian assess and treated. Krutzer assessments
arranged from delusion, severely distraught in other mental health issues.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, I can fucking see that, and I'm not even there.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
He would state his main reason for committing the attack
was due to supplies. This is again from the fill
observer quote. I was growing increasingly angry and I rate,
Krutzer said. I was frustrated about the whole process. I
thought something needed to be done. He told a military
judge that he felt a radical action was needed to
bring greater awareness to the problem. At the time, Crutzer
(18:59):
said he felt like shooting at his upbrigade with the
appropriate responses.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Okay, I don't think it was for a number of reasons,
but also that did not get your point across. I
had no idea that this was a quote unquote issue
until literally right now in this moment, because it bothered
him so much that he shot people about it. Yeah, like,
it doesn't sound like it's that big of a fucking
concern to anyone else.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
So, on December eighth, nineteen ninety five, a board of
doctors from the military determined that he is fit to
stand trial. Krutzer was found guilty of murder eighteen counts
of attempted murder. Cruser was sent to the death during
the nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Six court martial.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
However, in two thousand and four, an appellate court would
overturn that conviction, stating that his original defense lawyers were ineffective.
They would cite that the lawyers did not properly inform
the courts of his client's mental illnesses. But in March
on March tenth, a nine, I don't know why I
(20:01):
said that weird. I think I'm so used to saying
twenty something now that I'm like okay. On March tenth,
two thousand and nine, Kritzer pleaded guilty to murder, attempted murder,
and sixteen counts of aggravated assault charges in return for
prosecutors not seeking the death penalty. Death penalty a second time.
(20:22):
There's a lot of death penalty in these cases. So
we have his unsworn statement to the court, which I'm
going to read from quote to each and every person
that I hurt directly by shooting them, and to each
and every person my actions, and to each and every
person affected by my actions, whether it be a family member,
(20:44):
a loved one, a coworker, neighbor, or friend. I offer
my most heartfelt, sincere apology to each of you. Words
are inaccurate, and words are inadequate to express the deep
sense of shame and remorse that I feel for the
harm that I caused. I apologize and I am deeply
sorry for what I have done.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So's the pretty.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Seems genuine?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
It seems genuine.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, his family is not making excuses for Chritzer's actions,
but hopes had hoped to remove the death penalty from
the table. This is before they had done it. Their
focus is mainly on having the Army do a better
job of identifying and treating mental illnesses within its ranks.
Fair and this is going to be from the Washington Post.
(21:29):
In the Army, there have been similar suicides and incidents
similar to my sons. Kreutzers Senior said, we have learned
that there is no training for officers or in enlisted
men to search for people with mental health problems. Hopefully
my son's case can be a wake up call to
them to put in place procedures so this never happens again.
(21:50):
So like his family admits that there were like they
acknowledge fully in that Washington Post article there were issues.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
The Army knew that issues. They did nothing.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah, so it is very frustrating for them.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
But I'm gonna end this with the victims.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So Major Stephen Mark Badger, he was killed. Major Guy
lo'farrow was in a coma for forty five days. C
WO Abram Castillo, a helicopter parallel pilot, was paralyzed from
the neck down.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
SPC.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Mullin, SPC Bridges, p FC Spicer, Specialist Curtis Hall, SPC.
John Griffith, later sergeant who was later killed in action
in Afghanistan in May two thousand and six. Sergeant first
Class Jeffrey Graves. I don't know what the things after
(22:49):
his name mean, sorry, Pfc. Timothy Hareski, SFC Matthew Lewis,
s oh Uh Senior, I think senior charge it or
s Sgt. How Robert Howse who was shot in the foot.
(23:10):
So that was one of the gentlemen I was getting
the gun awak.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So this.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
A little different from Spooky Season a little bit, but
also very much preventable. And you know, I think it's
kind of a good one because in a way we
often turned to Spooky Season to watch all these things
where there's a lot of crime and a lot of
(23:36):
blood on the scene, and something like this is similar
to that, but it's also very tragic and preventable.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah, Like, this man.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Was screaming for help multiple occasions before this too. I
excluded some of them to make it a little shorter,
but it was a known issue, and they I mean
they took his gun away for two weeks.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, I mean there was something going on that they
knew about one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
And so it wasn't a.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Snap decision on his part.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
It was definitely a building problem that they could have fixed.
And as we all know, since you know, ninety five,
we've had multiple more and it's now much more of
an issue than others in this country. But it's sad
that we haven't learned anything from this.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Yeah, and I mean again, like you, as you said,
multiple cries for help through multiple you know, avenues. Honestly,
because he tried with the psychologist, he tried with the
social worker, he tried with.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
His roommate, he tried with the chaplain.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
The chaplain, like, he went through multiple avenues that he
was crying out for help, and he was telling people
what his intentions were like and why and for somebody
to you know, feel that strongly about shooting other people
because of something like that, like having to provide their
own supplies, Like that is definitely an escalated thing. Like
(25:08):
I'm not saying nobody would do that, but like that's
not a very common thing that somebody would go and
shoot a bunch of people over you know what I mean,
Like that's not that's like showing you right there there
was something in his mental health that was not okay
in that moment.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
My question is why aren't the psychiatrists available?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
That's my question, Like you should always be available.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You look at what we ask our service people to do. Yeah,
even the ones that aren't going into combat zones. Yeah,
and you're not providing them with any mental health support.
And granted I do understand it's the nineties, so we're
(25:52):
just starting to get into a better thing with mental
health and even now we're having issues still by but
it were around like he apparently saw some things when
he was in the Sinai Peninsula that really affected him
and talking about killing your shoulders. Then yeah, and you
(26:14):
do nothing to me.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
And this is just my personal opinion.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It feels like this whole incident is at the fault
of the army.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Not protecting its own.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah. I can definitely align with that, and it kind
of brings me back to I don't know if you've
listened to it yet or not, but the two part
that I did with Bruce LeMaster that so when we
talked about the serial killer who was writing him letters,
and he talked about how the military trained him, like
(26:48):
basically trained them to be like little killing robots with
no emotion, and he just didn't feel anything. You know,
if you trained somebody that way and you basically re
in a way recon struct their brain chemistry to not
have emotion about killing another person and like it's just
like a target, like almost like a game, you know,
(27:08):
like oh, point point point and you have no fucking
feelings or thoughts about it. That's gonna be enough to
mess with somebody's brain anyway. So if somebody is unable
to differentiate that aspect with their emotions in real life,
not saying that the Army isn't real life, you know
what I mean, Like that's their job right to kill
(27:29):
the enemy, But if they can't dissociate and like really
deal with their emotions and whatever other mental health concerns
that they have. That's really going to fuck with somebody
to the point I think that it did with him. Yeah,
like for something so small in our eyes, like buying
your own supplies, Like that's not typically something that somebody
(27:50):
is going to.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Go and mass shoot other people over as someone who
has to buy own supplies for their jobs. They do
not provided. I get the frustration because it's like stupid
stuff like dish soap, you know, right, or sponges you
(28:11):
can get everything else.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
It's just like, really.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
You can't buy sponges, okay, And I just my my
main thing is somebody messed up. We are all puntished
because I don't know, maybe somebody used the company credit
card and bought like five hundred sponges and they were
reselling them.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
But if there is are.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Signs, yeah, what does it say that nobody else in
that unit.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Said, hey, he's acting out? Or is it the situation?
You know?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
They say like when you put a frog in you
slowly turn up the heat and the boiling.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Water where it just slowly got to that point.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, And I'm always like when I'm in situations where
like you could get into that situation where it's like
I always people are like, oh, what's not I'm like,
you have to acknowledge when things are weird. Yeah, even
if it seems normal. If you're not acknowledging that it's weird,
you're too acclimatized to that and you need to back
(29:19):
away because that's weird. If somebody else comes in from
the outside and they are saying that's weird and.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You were just like, no, that's just normal, that's just
tim or.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Something, that's just how Tim b Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's not okay.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
And I think it could have been a little bit
of a column A could have been a little columnbe
But at.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Least now he's.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
His court martial had gone through. And in case people
were wondering why it was a court martial not a
regular court because it was a on a it sounds
like it was on the base, but it's military crimes, so.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
It's going to be a court martial.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I do agree they shouldn't have put him to death
because he was taking accountability for his actions and he
said I did this because.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Of X, Y and Z.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I am sorry that I hurt people. He apologizes, but
I apology doesn't change it though, No, it doesn't. Still
took a life and tried to take many more, he
doesn't change it. But I also, I guess I'm always
of the policy of he's got to live with that now,
for however long he lives, he has to sit with that.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, I mean, I get that, but I also get
the family side of it, where they're like, Okay, he
took from me, he should be taken out. Yeah, I
see both sides.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I guess I also see if even if they take
somebody from you, it's not going to bring them back.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
If you know it's not, it's not.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
And that's I think. I feel like that would be
a whole another like podcast, not even just episode, because
I feel like we could talk about that for days.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Just the We've just talked about the death penalty a
lot in the past four so it's like I feel
like we're very like up on this, We're.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Like yeah, but it's just like I feel like that
there's so much gray. Yeah, and I can see so
many people's points of view on it that it's like
when could you win? Should you? When is it morally
and ethically okay? Because like you're punishing one person. And
I don't want to get too far in the rabbit
hole to like turn people away, but like you know,
(31:23):
one of the main viewpoints is you're punishing one person
for killing by killing, Like what.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Does that say about you?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
And that's one of them things it's like hard to
like really wrap your head around.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I mean, it's pretty much we've given.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
One of the things of having like a state is
you give them the control of violence. That's their thing.
They have state controlled violence. And you're saying, we'll give
you the right. My thing is if one person could
possibly have not done it, it's worth keeping some pieces
(31:58):
of shit alive.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Well, and yes, I totally agree with that, but we
know he done did that?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Oh we know, Yeah, that's he's one of the ones we.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
We know, we know. Yeah. So then then it brings
up that question like for the family and stuff, like
what is justice for them? Yeah, And I don't think
you're ever gonna have the right answer, because what maybe
what maybe justice to them today could completely change in
ten years. They could be sad that they had a
part in that, or that they wanted another person to die,
(32:28):
you know what I mean, So they could regret that later.
I don't know. It's just there's a whole like thing
in my brain about the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
It's it's such a weird thing to look at now,
just because.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I always think it's funny.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
We're always like, it's so humane, it's so humane, right, but.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Do we say that is we do you mean we.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
As in like a country like like for the system
of saying like, oh I'm gonna put them to death
this way, it's like a oh yeah, and it's.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Like none of it is no humane.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
No, even when we did hangings, it wasn't humane because
often you don't get training before you get on that.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Job, and the people who do the job. I need
to read it.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Still, there's there's a book about an executioner, I think
in France or England.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's like the.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Testimony of him and how it was a horrible job.
I could imagine nobody likes you.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Well, I wouldn't even care about that. I don't think
I would like myself. I would not be able to
do that to people.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
But you get picked for the job or it's like
a family job, and so you get no choice, right,
and then you can't like your town hates you.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
You're called other places.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Does your town hate you though, because like in some
like cultures, they literally come there for it, as if
it's like a festival or something to watch a hanging happen.
I mean, of course this is way back in the day,
but like that was a thing.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Oh no, no, this is when.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Okay, so I believe it's like the sixteenth century. I'll
have to look up the book and text it to
you so you can include in the the show notes.
But it's one of those things where we've always done that.
People always come to watch the executions, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
They still it's they want to watch the spectacle.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
How dare you do that? How dare that be your job?
Because they could kill you. It's one of those things.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Yeah, you I'm trying to think of.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
A good example of it today, but I really can't.
It's like one of those things where you want to
watch the spectacle, but you hate the person who does
a job, right, because why is that your job? Why
are you doing that? Like it's a weird thing. But yeah,
(34:50):
I've run out of spooky movies. But I how with this.
I'll let you pick to share it up. Yeah, we'll
look at I'll give you for from the list. I'm trying, guys,
I'm trying to cheer this up.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Man. It was really dark.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I told Heather before, been dark for four hours.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It's been it's been No. The first a Patreon one
was fun.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yeah, I guess the spicy was dark.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
You mean you you get to see if you're ever
wondering what I look like, Yeah, it'll be a Patreon
You get to meet Heather's.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
The hand of Heather's husband, had Heather's husband.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
He is definitely real.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, sure he is.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
What I would I call him a cryptid.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
He's a Jason's a cryptid. No, but he's a shadow person.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yes, So I mean you saw his hand here and there. Okay,
so I'm gonna give you four options.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Twenty eight days later audition, which I believe is a
Japanese one.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Nope, I'm only gonna says to the ones that I've seen.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Bodies, Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Actually I like that one.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Oh, there's one called Carnival of Souls from the sixties.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
I've heard of it, I haven't seen it, but Bodies,
Bodies Bodies is a fun one. It's a fun horror movie.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Creature from the Black Lagoon.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I've never seen it, but like I probably should. You
should watch Bodies Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
He will do Bodies Bodies Bodies. I think I might
watch it tonight too, Dude. I got too much shit
to do tomorrow. But I'll watch a couple other and
I'll record a little reaction so people can see.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
So Bodies Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yes, but yeah, so yeah, it's a you know, check
in with your friends, check your mental health.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Go.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Uh. I know it's gonna be cold outside for half
of the world, but still go be out in nature.
It helps, and you know, it's better to check in
with your friends then have to worry about stuff like
this or to shoot others.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, don't do it.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I don't have a good way to end this.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
I know. I feel like we're just making it worse. Yeah, okay,
so watch Bodies Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
So I'm gonna watch Bodies Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Heather will include my thoughts on it, I guess. Yeah,
stay inside, stay alive and call your therapists.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Call your therapists.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Yeah, call your therapists please, and check in with your friends.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
We're gonna go.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Okay, bye, okay bye. Also happy Halloween and in the
next few episodes. We might want to know what your
costume was as your Please send us pictures of your
costumes and your plans so we can post them all
over social media on Halloween. Okay, bye
Speaker 1 (38:01):
After
Okay, I hated this. Oh it's no, it needs to
be told because I did not know about this.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
But it's just like sah, the mass shooting.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Fuck. Oh, I've done too many of those. Okay, here's that.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
You don't have to talk about it. I have to
talk about it, all right.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Catching my breath.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Oh that's icy.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Welcome back to Nature Versus Narcissism. As always, I'm your host, Heather,
and today I have with me.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I'm back again. Bitches, it's Courtney.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Many of our longtime listeners know that each spooky season
we like to throw a bit of a curveball and
share a series with you that doesn't quite follow the
main feed for and this year is no different. This year,
we're aiming to bring you at least one main feed
episode per day, even if it's late, plus some Patreon
episodes sprinkled throughout, including the Thirteen Days of Halloween, which
you guys are very well deep into at this point
(01:15):
on Patreon. And then this year we're also bringing you
basically a story with a crime or something spooky that
has a connection to each day in October. And today
we're discussing a crime with a connection to October twenty seventh.
And the other curve ball is that Courtney did all
the research for this one, so I'm gonna kind of
hear it with you guys.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, take it away. Yes I did.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
And now I'm out of breath. I'm sorry. We have
been We've been going for like four hours.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yes, and you should all appreciate it is my Friday,
even though it's Monday, so and it is my Monday,
and it.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Had been a weekend. So we're rocketing.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
We're struggling, that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We're on the last of our drinks, so you know,
it's a good time. The dogs are trying to get in.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It's wild.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It is so happy. You got this happy October twenty seven.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yes, we're very close to Halloween. I hope you guys
have awesome plans. We'll talk about it at the end.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yes, I'm so sorry. This is sad. It's real sad.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I mean the other two that you did with me
just recently, we're fucking sad too about innocent people being
murdered and executed and almost executed.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, there's no twist on this one.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
It's just sad. I hate this podcast, so I'm just
kidding it. I hate it here, this is I hate
this show.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
This is your podcast. I hate this.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I hate it here, this is your house, this is
a taco bell here.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
This time, at least I am not slowly having the
Miami Valley perge for my system.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
So yeah, I'm just having the congestion.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, we're just switch.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
So it is the morning of October twenty seventh, nineteen
ninety five.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
There are thirteen.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Hundred paratroopers who are preparing for the Division Readiness Brigade
mission military things.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
This is the military one.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
It's uh yeah, give that disclaimer then.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yes, this is gonna be about a mass shooting. So
if you are not mentally able to deal with.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
This, please skip this up. So so we want not
be sad.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
There are heroes in this. There are also losses and
yeah and not great. It was prevetable, So let's get going.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
John Scrogan's, who is the commander of the eighty second
Airborne Division, second Brigade, gathers his troops at Tole Stadium
for a brigade run. I don't know if I'm pronouncing
that stadium's name howl.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Taw or I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I make it French.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
The soldiers are getting ready for their run and one
of their numbers actually missing, which what I know from
my friends who are in the military of various branches
is that's pretty noticeable because you're supposed to be there
early and in position and all of that. Sergeant William
Cruz is a squad leader in the Brigades fourth Battalion.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Sorry, was it Krutzer?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Krutzer? Is it Krutzer?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Kind of looks like it. Sure, Sorry, we just want
to make sure that we're giving the people the recognition. No, oh,
just kidding.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Okay, we'll we'll just redo it. Sergeant William Kreutzer, the
squad leader in the Brigades fourth Battalion, is concealed in
a fox hole next to the stadium. He's wearing his
battle dress uniform. He is armed with a fully loaded
Ruger twenty two caliber semi automatic rifle with fifty hollow
(04:58):
point high velocity rounds, pack West Arms five point five
to six millimeter semi automatic rifle, the civilian equivalent of
the Army's sixteen, and a high capacity nine millimeter Glock
seventeen semi automatic pistol.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I do not know a lot about guns.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
But that seems like a lot of guns, and a
lot of very powerful guns to have.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
So yeah, if Jason was in here right now, he
would tell you exactly what each one of those is.
But yes, I know a couple of them, and.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
They are yes.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
With Krutzer watching, Scrogans and his soldiers are on the field,
stood at attention again making sure everybody's there saluting as
the Revelry plays across the speakers at Fort Bragg, which
is where this is going to be, signaling the start
of the day. Someone who sometimes works on base I
(05:55):
will say they do play play, you know, stuff over
the speaker route the day and to signal at five
o'clock that the work the day is over.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
As the soldiers are filing out of the stadium, you know,
we've all been in that kind of situation. There's a
natural bottleneck from the bleachers and the wood in the line,
and I'm guessing this is kind of like a football stadium,
like a high school football, not like not like a
professional sitting, but.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Like something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Right, none of them would have been able to see
Krutzer lying in the dark looking at them through his
gun sights. O my god, As he opens fire, starting
with the smaller ruger. He then moves on to a
more powerful pack West Arms rifle and the soldiers they
all would know that sounds, so they know exactly what happens.
(06:47):
These interviews are taken from the Fayette Pill Observer quote
Chief Officer to Abram's Castilli was the first victim.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Shot in the neck.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
He collapsed like a rag doll, forever a quadriplegic. According
to testimony from Krutzer's nineteen ninety six court martial, Jesus
As Casilla fell, Staff Sergeant Mayathel Lewis turned to him
and was struck in the chest with Krutzer's second bullet.
The next shot came ten seconds later, when staff Sergeant
(07:17):
Robert A.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Kraeger was hit in the left side of his back.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Lying in a pool of blood, Krager screamed to his
fellow soldiers, get down, get we're let me say, acond,
get down. We're taking incoming fire, he yelled, according to
estimat investigators. So the soldiers are unsure of how many
are shooting at them, they search for cover throughout the stadium.
(07:41):
That morning, Krutzer would shoot sixteen soldiers, hitting six in
the head, neck or chest. Two others are hit in
the abdomen in our back. Krutzer then went to his vehicle,
which was close by, to get a more powerful rifle.
At that time, Scrogan's had begun to move towards the gunshots.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Remember these are trained.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Soldiers, and as soon as soon as he had heard them,
with his staff highly trained following behind him. Unfortunately for them,
Kreutzer would see them coming. Using that stronger rifle, he
takes a and strikes Major Stephen Badger in the head.
They continue to move forward and rush at Krutzer, who
(08:25):
fires at Major Guy Loferro hitting him in the stomach,
causing severe internal damage. He had killed nineteen soldiers until
five Special Forces. Until five Special Forces soldiers who had
just happened to be running near Chale Stadium at the time,
were able to tackle.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Wow, dude, what the fuck?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And I told you what was bad?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Well, And like, how fast did this happen? It seems
like within matter minutes.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's pretty fast, geez, it's really really fast. So four
are going to be Sergeant first class Edward A. Mongol,
Sergeant first class Paul Rodgers, staff Sergeant Robert Howes, and
staff Sergeant Anthony Miners their students at the John F.
Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School. The fifth soldier, Sergeant
(09:17):
first Class Elwood Johnson, is the instructor at the school's
Non Commissioned Armor Non Commissioned Officer Academy. Mongol and Minor
had actually near misses with trace A rounds as they
ran towards the shooter. Mongol reached Krutzer first tackles him
while miner sees assisted. Mongol reached Krutzer first and tackled
(09:42):
him while miner assisted him. They hold him down as
Howe's attempts to pull the rifle from his hands. During
the struggle, Krutzer would manage to fire three times and
actually hits Howels in the foot, but they got managed
to get that gun away. Roger had run to get help,
flagging down seven MPs or Military police, and then return
(10:02):
to help his fellow soldiers hold down Cruiser and search
for other weapons. Johnson meanwhile had been providing medical aid
to this serious a seriously injured soldier on the field.
All five Special Forces were honored in nineteen ninety five
with Soldiers Medals, which is the army's highest honored for
heroism outside of combat. Lafarah and Badger were also honored,
(10:24):
with Badger's widow Diane accepting on his behalf.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
So how do we get here?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Literally, Like, I don't understand what's happening. Like I obviously
I understand that he like went berser with his fucking guns,
but like, why, Like what is going on?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Stressing me out?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
They're not gonna want me back. They're like, she's real depressing.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
They're like, we only had a few days in between
each of your episodes. We don't like it anymore. Got
to be saying the same thing. I hate this show.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I hate it here my house.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So from what I've seen online, I can't find much
on his early life. We do know that his high
school principal will testify that he was quote an above
average student. Quote they always seem to be. He graduates
from the University of Maryland. Then he enters the Army
in February nineteen ninety two, and by March nineteen eighty three,
he's assigned to the three hundred and twenty fifth Airborne
(11:29):
Infantry of the eighty second Airborne Division.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Sounds important, I don't ever understand what each one of
those means.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
It's it's basically the airborne division is the bigger one,
and then it breaks down, so it's like the department
and then your group. Okay, So in January nineteen eighty four,
his unit will be deployed to the Sinai Peninsula. So
that is the peninsula next to Egypt. That little triangle bit.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
She likes maps you as you were here on the
last episode.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Map sell of geography. I have a degree in international studies.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Like, let's go. Okay, so we know.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
During his time in the army, Krutzer reported that he
was teased in the butts of practical jokes by his
fellow soldiers. Doesn't seem very uncommon for the military as
far as I know.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
There's also evidence.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
That he had told a friend he knew the number
of people killed in a rampage shooting, like the record
number of people killed, thus earned him the nickname quote
crazy Krutzer. Oh no, no, this isn't good.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Nope, this is not good.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
While he's in the Sinai in July. All right, sorry,
while he's in the Sinai Peninsula in July, I don't
want to keep wanting to say July, let's try for
a third time. While in the Sinai Peninsula in June
nineteen eighty four, Krutzer is going to break down while
on guard duty and speaks of killing, wanting to kill, kill,
(13:00):
and speaking of killing several other soldiers.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Basically, he has.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
A psychotic break Yeah, sounds like it, or at least
a breakdown and.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
A mental manifesto.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, Cruiser would be disciplined and sent to see the
division social worker. That worker reported that he suffered from
low self esteem. Yeah, he suffered from low self esteem
as well as anger management issues. They determine him not
to be a threat, but he has not allowed weapons
(13:32):
for two weeks after the incident.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
We're gonna take your toys away for two weeks. You're grounded.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Pretty much. Did not mean to hit that. Jesus so
frustrated with this case. I see so.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
The day before the October twenty seven, In the day
before the October twenty seventh incident, Krutzer would confide in
his former roommate SPC. Harlan that he really needed to
talk to Fong, who is the social worker. Again, Harlan
tries to calm him down, but again he stated it
(14:15):
was not going to be all right, So clearly he
knows he's hit his breaking point.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Yeah we know, screaming out for Helpe. It seems like, yeah,
we know.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Kritzer spends the night before gathering guns from his storage
unit off base. He was extremely frustrated with from having
to buy items for his squad's packing lists with his
own money. He believed that any items soldiers required should
be provided to them.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
But what did he require them for to shoot the
other soldiers?
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I think they were going to do drills and stuff
and like you know, the army wal have you go
do trainings and whatnot, and.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
They had their own guns for that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So he was having to provide other items. It's not
the guns. He's getting his guns because he's frustrated from
the situation.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Where okay, but that's just like when you go to
college and ship you have to provide. You have to
buy your own books, you have to pay for your tuition.
When you go study abroad, you have to pay for
some stuff like internships. Sometimes you get room on board,
but sometimes you have to pay.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Like here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Anybody in the federal government will tell you, the federal
government doesn't cover everything. Yeah, and so it's very much
you're gonna have to buy some things out of your
own money, yeah, for any government job. Right, So it's
not crazy, but.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
He just didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I think he's just frustrated with a lot of situations and.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
That's just the fun sipping one. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So Krutzer would then call the chaplain, they don't answer.
He calls the mental health professionals on Bass they are
not available.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Afterwards, he's gonna call SPC. Mays to inform him that
he planned on opening fire on the Callisenics field the
next morning.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
When May sees that Krutzer is missing from the brigade run,
he alerted his superiors, who dismissed the concern.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Oh my god, dude, there's so many opportunities to stop this.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yep. They would say that Krutzer was quote a pussy
end quote and do allow though. Mays to check Krutzer's
room and when he goes there, he finds a copy
of his The shooters will.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
How fucking unprofessional.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
That actually sounds like the military.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
To me, I know, but like he is like actively
talking about this to multiple people, all of which should
have reported it. To someone.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I don't know if his roommate old roommate did, but Mazed,
I mean May says everything. But they say basically, he's
not man enough to do it.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
That's so stupid, dude.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So Krutzer will testify.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
He spent the night in a hotel off base, he
finished loading his ammunition. He woke up at five am
the next morning, having taking four and he woke up
at five am the next morning took four pills containing
the stimulant ephira to keep him having taken four pills
(17:43):
of the stimulant ephedra to keep him alert. Oh, Krutzer
was convinced that he would be killed after the shooting.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, I mean, I can see why.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So let's get to the trial of the sentencing.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Krutzer waived his rights at the Criminal Investigation Division office.
He talked to a psychiatrist, doctor Diamond, who would point
out as afterwards that he would invoke his right to
silence in an attorney. So, I don't know what happened.
At first he was willing to talk, and then he
is not willing to talk.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
I was like, just kidding.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
He would then refuse to speak with military police. After
several psychiatrists military and civilian assess and treated. Krutzer assessments
arranged from delusion, severely distraught in other mental health issues.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, I can fucking see that, and I'm not even there.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
He would state his main reason for committing the attack
was due to supplies. This is again from the fill
observer quote. I was growing increasingly angry and I rate,
Krutzer said. I was frustrated about the whole process. I
thought something needed to be done. He told a military
judge that he felt a radical action was needed to
bring greater awareness to the problem. At the time, Crutzer
(18:59):
said he felt like shooting at his upbrigade with the
appropriate responses.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Okay, I don't think it was for a number of reasons,
but also that did not get your point across. I
had no idea that this was a quote unquote issue
until literally right now in this moment, because it bothered
him so much that he shot people about it. Yeah, like,
it doesn't sound like it's that big of a fucking
concern to anyone else.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
So, on December eighth, nineteen ninety five, a board of
doctors from the military determined that he is fit to
stand trial. Krutzer was found guilty of murder eighteen counts
of attempted murder. Cruser was sent to the death during
the nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Six court martial.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
However, in two thousand and four, an appellate court would
overturn that conviction, stating that his original defense lawyers were ineffective.
They would cite that the lawyers did not properly inform
the courts of his client's mental illnesses. But in March
on March tenth, a nine, I don't know why I
(20:01):
said that weird. I think I'm so used to saying
twenty something now that I'm like okay. On March tenth,
two thousand and nine, Kritzer pleaded guilty to murder, attempted murder,
and sixteen counts of aggravated assault charges in return for
prosecutors not seeking the death penalty. Death penalty a second time.
(20:22):
There's a lot of death penalty in these cases. So
we have his unsworn statement to the court, which I'm
going to read from quote to each and every person
that I hurt directly by shooting them, and to each
and every person my actions, and to each and every
person affected by my actions, whether it be a family member,
(20:44):
a loved one, a coworker, neighbor, or friend. I offer
my most heartfelt, sincere apology to each of you. Words
are inaccurate, and words are inadequate to express the deep
sense of shame and remorse that I feel for the
harm that I caused. I apologize and I am deeply
sorry for what I have done.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So's the pretty.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Seems genuine?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
It seems genuine.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, his family is not making excuses for Chritzer's actions,
but hopes had hoped to remove the death penalty from
the table. This is before they had done it. Their
focus is mainly on having the Army do a better
job of identifying and treating mental illnesses within its ranks.
Fair and this is going to be from the Washington Post.
(21:29):
In the Army, there have been similar suicides and incidents
similar to my sons. Kreutzers Senior said, we have learned
that there is no training for officers or in enlisted
men to search for people with mental health problems. Hopefully
my son's case can be a wake up call to
them to put in place procedures so this never happens again.
(21:50):
So like his family admits that there were like they
acknowledge fully in that Washington Post article there were issues.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
The Army knew that issues. They did nothing.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah, so it is very frustrating for them.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
But I'm gonna end this with the victims.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So Major Stephen Mark Badger, he was killed. Major Guy
lo'farrow was in a coma for forty five days. C
WO Abram Castillo, a helicopter parallel pilot, was paralyzed from
the neck down.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
SPC.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Mullin, SPC Bridges, p FC Spicer, Specialist Curtis Hall, SPC.
John Griffith, later sergeant who was later killed in action
in Afghanistan in May two thousand and six. Sergeant first
Class Jeffrey Graves. I don't know what the things after
(22:49):
his name mean, sorry, Pfc. Timothy Hareski, SFC Matthew Lewis,
s oh Uh Senior, I think senior charge it or
s Sgt. How Robert Howse who was shot in the foot.
(23:10):
So that was one of the gentlemen I was getting
the gun awak.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So this.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
A little different from Spooky Season a little bit, but
also very much preventable. And you know, I think it's
kind of a good one because in a way we
often turned to Spooky Season to watch all these things
where there's a lot of crime and a lot of
(23:36):
blood on the scene, and something like this is similar
to that, but it's also very tragic and preventable.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah, Like, this man.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Was screaming for help multiple occasions before this too. I
excluded some of them to make it a little shorter,
but it was a known issue, and they I mean
they took his gun away for two weeks.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, I mean there was something going on that they
knew about one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
And so it wasn't a.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Snap decision on his part.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
It was definitely a building problem that they could have fixed.
And as we all know, since you know, ninety five,
we've had multiple more and it's now much more of
an issue than others in this country. But it's sad
that we haven't learned anything from this.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Yeah, and I mean again, like you, as you said,
multiple cries for help through multiple you know, avenues. Honestly,
because he tried with the psychologist, he tried with the
social worker, he tried with.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
His roommate, he tried with the chaplain.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
The chaplain, like, he went through multiple avenues that he
was crying out for help, and he was telling people
what his intentions were like and why and for somebody
to you know, feel that strongly about shooting other people
because of something like that, like having to provide their
own supplies, Like that is definitely an escalated thing. Like
(25:08):
I'm not saying nobody would do that, but like that's
not a very common thing that somebody would go and
shoot a bunch of people over you know what I mean,
Like that's not that's like showing you right there there
was something in his mental health that was not okay
in that moment.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
My question is why aren't the psychiatrists available?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
That's my question, Like you should always be available.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You look at what we ask our service people to do. Yeah,
even the ones that aren't going into combat zones. Yeah,
and you're not providing them with any mental health support.
And granted I do understand it's the nineties, so we're
(25:52):
just starting to get into a better thing with mental
health and even now we're having issues still by but
it were around like he apparently saw some things when
he was in the Sinai Peninsula that really affected him
and talking about killing your shoulders. Then yeah, and you
(26:14):
do nothing to me.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
And this is just my personal opinion.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It feels like this whole incident is at the fault
of the army.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Not protecting its own.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah. I can definitely align with that, and it kind
of brings me back to I don't know if you've
listened to it yet or not, but the two part
that I did with Bruce LeMaster that so when we
talked about the serial killer who was writing him letters,
and he talked about how the military trained him, like
(26:48):
basically trained them to be like little killing robots with
no emotion, and he just didn't feel anything. You know,
if you trained somebody that way and you basically re
in a way recon struct their brain chemistry to not
have emotion about killing another person and like it's just
like a target, like almost like a game, you know,
(27:08):
like oh, point point point and you have no fucking
feelings or thoughts about it. That's gonna be enough to
mess with somebody's brain anyway. So if somebody is unable
to differentiate that aspect with their emotions in real life,
not saying that the Army isn't real life, you know
what I mean, Like that's their job right to kill
(27:29):
the enemy, But if they can't dissociate and like really
deal with their emotions and whatever other mental health concerns
that they have. That's really going to fuck with somebody
to the point I think that it did with him. Yeah,
like for something so small in our eyes, like buying
your own supplies, Like that's not typically something that somebody
(27:50):
is going to.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Go and mass shoot other people over as someone who
has to buy own supplies for their jobs. They do
not provided. I get the frustration because it's like stupid
stuff like dish soap, you know, right, or sponges you
(28:11):
can get everything else.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
It's just like, really.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
You can't buy sponges, okay, And I just my my
main thing is somebody messed up. We are all puntished
because I don't know, maybe somebody used the company credit
card and bought like five hundred sponges and they were
reselling them.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
But if there is are.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Signs, yeah, what does it say that nobody else in
that unit.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Said, hey, he's acting out? Or is it the situation?
You know?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
They say like when you put a frog in you
slowly turn up the heat and the boiling.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Water where it just slowly got to that point.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, And I'm always like when I'm in situations where
like you could get into that situation where it's like
I always people are like, oh, what's not I'm like,
you have to acknowledge when things are weird. Yeah, even
if it seems normal. If you're not acknowledging that it's weird,
you're too acclimatized to that and you need to back
(29:19):
away because that's weird. If somebody else comes in from
the outside and they are saying that's weird and.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You were just like, no, that's just normal, that's just
tim or.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Something, that's just how Tim b Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's not okay.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
And I think it could have been a little bit
of a column A could have been a little columnbe
But at.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Least now he's.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
His court martial had gone through. And in case people
were wondering why it was a court martial not a
regular court because it was a on a it sounds
like it was on the base, but it's military crimes, so.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
It's going to be a court martial.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I do agree they shouldn't have put him to death
because he was taking accountability for his actions and he
said I did this because.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Of X, Y and Z.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I am sorry that I hurt people. He apologizes, but
I apology doesn't change it though, No, it doesn't. Still
took a life and tried to take many more, he
doesn't change it. But I also, I guess I'm always
of the policy of he's got to live with that now,
for however long he lives, he has to sit with that.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, I mean, I get that, but I also get
the family side of it, where they're like, Okay, he
took from me, he should be taken out. Yeah, I
see both sides.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I guess I also see if even if they take
somebody from you, it's not going to bring them back.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
If you know it's not, it's not.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
And that's I think. I feel like that would be
a whole another like podcast, not even just episode, because
I feel like we could talk about that for days.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Just the We've just talked about the death penalty a
lot in the past four so it's like I feel
like we're very like up on this, We're.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Like yeah, but it's just like I feel like that
there's so much gray. Yeah, and I can see so
many people's points of view on it that it's like
when could you win? Should you? When is it morally
and ethically okay? Because like you're punishing one person. And
I don't want to get too far in the rabbit
hole to like turn people away, but like you know,
(31:23):
one of the main viewpoints is you're punishing one person
for killing by killing, Like what.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Does that say about you?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
And that's one of them things it's like hard to
like really wrap your head around.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I mean, it's pretty much we've given.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
One of the things of having like a state is
you give them the control of violence. That's their thing.
They have state controlled violence. And you're saying, we'll give
you the right. My thing is if one person could
possibly have not done it, it's worth keeping some pieces
(31:58):
of shit alive.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Well, and yes, I totally agree with that, but we
know he done did that?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Oh we know, Yeah, that's he's one of the ones we.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
We know, we know. Yeah. So then then it brings
up that question like for the family and stuff, like
what is justice for them? Yeah, And I don't think
you're ever gonna have the right answer, because what maybe
what maybe justice to them today could completely change in
ten years. They could be sad that they had a
part in that, or that they wanted another person to die,
(32:28):
you know what I mean, So they could regret that later.
I don't know. It's just there's a whole like thing
in my brain about the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
It's it's such a weird thing to look at now,
just because.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I always think it's funny.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
We're always like, it's so humane, it's so humane, right, but.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Do we say that is we do you mean we.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
As in like a country like like for the system
of saying like, oh I'm gonna put them to death
this way, it's like a oh yeah, and it's.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Like none of it is no humane.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
No, even when we did hangings, it wasn't humane because
often you don't get training before you get on that.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Job, and the people who do the job. I need
to read it.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Still, there's there's a book about an executioner, I think
in France or England.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's like the.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Testimony of him and how it was a horrible job.
I could imagine nobody likes you.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Well, I wouldn't even care about that. I don't think
I would like myself. I would not be able to
do that to people.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
But you get picked for the job or it's like
a family job, and so you get no choice, right,
and then you can't like your town hates you.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
You're called other places.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Does your town hate you though, because like in some
like cultures, they literally come there for it, as if
it's like a festival or something to watch a hanging happen.
I mean, of course this is way back in the day,
but like that was a thing.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Oh no, no, this is when.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Okay, so I believe it's like the sixteenth century. I'll
have to look up the book and text it to
you so you can include in the the show notes.
But it's one of those things where we've always done that.
People always come to watch the executions, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
They still it's they want to watch the spectacle.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
How dare you do that? How dare that be your job?
Because they could kill you. It's one of those things.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Yeah, you I'm trying to think of.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
A good example of it today, but I really can't.
It's like one of those things where you want to
watch the spectacle, but you hate the person who does
a job, right, because why is that your job? Why
are you doing that? Like it's a weird thing. But yeah,
(34:50):
I've run out of spooky movies. But I how with this.
I'll let you pick to share it up. Yeah, we'll
look at I'll give you for from the list. I'm trying, guys,
I'm trying to cheer this up.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Man. It was really dark.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I told Heather before, been dark for four hours.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It's been it's been No. The first a Patreon one
was fun.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yeah, I guess the spicy was dark.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
You mean you you get to see if you're ever
wondering what I look like, Yeah, it'll be a Patreon
You get to meet Heather's.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
The hand of Heather's husband, had Heather's husband.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
He is definitely real.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, sure he is.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
What I would I call him a cryptid.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
He's a Jason's a cryptid. No, but he's a shadow person.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yes, So I mean you saw his hand here and there. Okay,
so I'm gonna give you four options.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Twenty eight days later audition, which I believe is a
Japanese one.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Nope, I'm only gonna says to the ones that I've seen.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Bodies, Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Actually I like that one.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Oh, there's one called Carnival of Souls from the sixties.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
I've heard of it, I haven't seen it, but Bodies,
Bodies Bodies is a fun one. It's a fun horror movie.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Creature from the Black Lagoon.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I've never seen it, but like I probably should. You
should watch Bodies Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
He will do Bodies Bodies Bodies. I think I might
watch it tonight too, Dude. I got too much shit
to do tomorrow. But I'll watch a couple other and
I'll record a little reaction so people can see.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
So Bodies Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yes, but yeah, so yeah, it's a you know, check
in with your friends, check your mental health.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Go.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Uh. I know it's gonna be cold outside for half
of the world, but still go be out in nature.
It helps, and you know, it's better to check in
with your friends then have to worry about stuff like
this or to shoot others.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, don't do it.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I don't have a good way to end this.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
I know. I feel like we're just making it worse. Yeah, okay,
so watch Bodies Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
So I'm gonna watch Bodies Bodies Bodies.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Heather will include my thoughts on it, I guess. Yeah,
stay inside, stay alive and call your therapists.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Call your therapists.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Yeah, call your therapists please, and check in with your friends.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
We're gonna go.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Okay, bye, okay bye. Also happy Halloween and in the
next few episodes. We might want to know what your
costume was as your Please send us pictures of your
costumes and your plans so we can post them all
over social media on Halloween. Okay, bye
Speaker 1 (38:01):
After
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