June 16, 2025 • 44 mins
Karen Margaret Greenlee; born in 1958, was an apprentice embalmer in Sacramento, California who sexually assaulted over 40 deceased individuals. She called herself the “morgue rat”. She is considered as the "best-known modern practitioner of necrophilia", and her case was the subject of much research due to her sex as only ten percent of known necrophiles are women.
The first 4 ½ minutes is an announcement about this series and how it came about. We start talking about Greenlee at the 5 minute mark. Feel free to skip forward, but if you do, you may be lost for this particular series.
Fun Fact: Did you know that necrophilia did not become illegal until 2003 in the United Kingdom?? Did you know that in the United States though, there is no federal legislation specifically barring sex with a corpse. However, multiple states have their own laws. In Ohio, it is a Felony in the fifth degree. It appears as though the states that do not have legislation against it are: Massachusetts, New Mexico, South Dakota, Vermont, and Virginia. #TheMoreYouKnow.
Check out our website for sources and more at www.naturevsnarcissism.com Until next time; stay inside, stay alive.
The first 4 ½ minutes is an announcement about this series and how it came about. We start talking about Greenlee at the 5 minute mark. Feel free to skip forward, but if you do, you may be lost for this particular series.
Fun Fact: Did you know that necrophilia did not become illegal until 2003 in the United Kingdom?? Did you know that in the United States though, there is no federal legislation specifically barring sex with a corpse. However, multiple states have their own laws. In Ohio, it is a Felony in the fifth degree. It appears as though the states that do not have legislation against it are: Massachusetts, New Mexico, South Dakota, Vermont, and Virginia. #TheMoreYouKnow.
Check out our website for sources and more at www.naturevsnarcissism.com Until next time; stay inside, stay alive.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
H M.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome back to Nature Versus Narcissism. I'm your host, Heather,
and today I have a return guest. We have Kelsey
and for We do have the podcast, of course, but
we also we are trying something new with TikTok. So
for TikTok, this is probably gonna be the first trial
(00:34):
and talking.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It might be a little rough, but this isn't like
we said trial.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll see
if the works of a dozen then none of this
matters right now.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I mean, to be fair, we are we are some millennials.
We're like in the elder millennials section, all.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Right, anyway, elders and millennials in the same sentence. I'm
not digging it. So thanks a lot for case. So
we're just gonna go ahead and get started. I know
that it's been quite a long ass time since, you know,
we've recorded for the podcast, and I truly apologize for that.
Life is obviously fucking hectic for any adult out there.
(01:12):
You know this, and I'm not. I mean, life is
fucking hard, okay, Like I don't even sleep anymore. The
last time I think that we actually recorded for Envy
in was for our Halloween series. Now that's not to
say that we haven't done research, because there's been a
ton of research done by myself, by Brittany, who you
(01:33):
guys know very well on the channel, on the show,
and then Kelsey's done research. We've had a couple of
other people send research to us, so like it's been done,
it's just really hard to find time to record anything.
So and currently Brittany is planning a wedding, so I'm
not so happy, but it's a lot anybody who's ever
(01:56):
planned a wedding. I mean I started planning my wedding
and then I said nah, fam and we got married
in his mom's living room because I couldn't handle it.
It was too much.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I say, I didn't really play a wedding, yeah, first,
but I did play my second one, and it was
her even it wasn't even a large wedding, but it
was so nerve wracking. So I can only imagine who
many things, oh my, And there's.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Everything you have to think about the tiniest tiniest details,
and I just can't. That stresses me out. So even
though we've done the research, like Brittany and I both
have an entire series locked and loaded for you guys,
a celebrity series, which is why Kelsey and I are
not doing that right now, because you know we we
hinted at that during the Halloween episodes, and you know,
(02:37):
I just cannot wait. You know, she has her background
with theater and all of that, so which you are.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Well aware because you have a favorite background.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Too, But we just really we're saving that. That's that's
on me and Brittany thing.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So I'm excited to see.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, I'm so excited for that one. I know, I
know you are, and I'm sure you guys will have
a lot to talk about. But I just think that
just to get back to you guys, we decided to
throw together another series because kind of a last order
of business for this one. It's kind of funny. So
when we moved into this house in twenty twenty, during
(03:12):
the height of COVID, we it was kind of, I
don't even know how to say it. It was just
an amazing stroke of luck at that time to get
this house at this price. We weren't really expecting it.
It's our first house and we were so excited that
we just threw everything in toats and boxes let it go,
packed it all up. We were like, let's fucking go,
(03:33):
and then it's COVID, so we weren't recording with anybody
in person at all. Right, So a lot of our
tots that you know would have like storage things in them,
we kind of put them away. I had a couple
of podcast totes that I was like, where the fuck
did they go?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
We moved.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Recently, I was going through said tots because, as everybody knows,
my stepdaughter is in college and she just moved again,
got her own apartment, and I was kind of going
through some stuff trying to find some empty notes for her,
and I found some podcast notes that had my old
notebooks because I used to write everything, like handwrite everything
(04:11):
in the beginning of this podcast, and I found so
many like little posted notes and little like handwritten like
you know those lined posted like where your to do list? Yeah,
but they had episodes suggestions, and some of them had
names of people that sent them. So as we go along,
(04:32):
if some of those have people's names on them, we
are going to shout them out on the episodes and
then just to kind of go along with that. Recently,
we've had a couple of people come to both of
us and suggest episodes, so we're gonna throw those in
the mix too. But I was so excited when I
found this one because it's one of the very first
people who connected with us when Envan started in the
(04:55):
very beginning, and I feel like trash that I lost
the post it with the name at the person I
never felt. I was never like, Okay, I'm gonna go
ask her again what she wanted us to cover. She
still talks to me on Facebook and everything. But now
Kimberly Kimberly, h. I don't want to say your last name,
just in case you don't want it out there. But
(05:15):
we found it. It made it, It made it to us,
So we are finally covering Karen Greenley, the female necrophile,
also known as the embalmer.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Listen this. Doing research into this episode, I was a
weird mix of that's disgusting and are you okay?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Like girl, are you okay?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Like?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
How did we get here? I am kind of pumped
about this one. It's not the longest episode, but it's
interesting and there's not a whole lot of stuff on it.
I'm not really excited.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
This one just makes it just makes you like there
are people that do that?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What the fuck? There are people that do this? An
more you wait for the next episode, So thank you, Kimberly.
We're finally covering it, and we'll take a really fast break.
But then when we come back, we're getting into it.
We're getting into Karen and what she was all about.
(06:17):
All right, So Karen Margaret Greenley was born in nineteen
fifty eight. She was an apprentcess in balmer in Sacramento, California,
who sexually assaulted over forty deceased individuals.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
That just makes me want to like it. We'll get
bored into it later.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
But like she called herself, this through me girl girl.
There are better nicknames, but she called herself the Morgat.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
How depraved of a human do you have to be
to look to look at yourself and go, you know what,
that's a badass nickname.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But listen though, I mean she was a little bit
creative because she did work in a more okay, but
a more rat But listen because it's very ratty.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Okay, but mom days, rat rat on somebody you tell
on yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
But rats also don't know, they don't do they not
do they not?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Damn it?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
They eat out dead bodies.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
This is coming from a woman who in high school
my nickname was squeaks?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
All right, is it because of the way you sneeze?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I don't that's not a sneeze. Why did she insist
on that?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I don't know. Well, she Karen is considered as the
quote unquote, can I.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Just put it?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
She's literally a Karen. I know, I was wondering when
you were gonna say it? Go on, I'm good, No, okay, okay.
She is considered as quote unquote the best known modern
practitioner of Negro feelings. So this you can, she can
put this on her resume. It feels like a job
title practitioner of if you. If I ever come across
(08:13):
a resume and it says that, it says hired immediately.
I don't need an interview. I need to ask you
questions about your brain. I need to ask the questions
about their brain.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
That's where they get It's like, yeah, we'll hire you
straight into a locked and padded room.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I'm just getting people off the streets.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, I'm doing my service, doing my due diligence.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Speaking of services today was fucking weird. I have a
job that I don't talk about on here. But when
your client approaches you in a public restaurant and says, hey,
in case you want to hear, in case you need
any information from my boss, he's standing right here, so uncomfortable.
(08:55):
So uncomfort That's all I'm gonna say about my job.
But basically, we're not allowed to discuss those matters with
our clients in public around others. There are violations. And
he literally brought his crew to the window of the
drive through.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
To what was he gonna do, do like a sing
along with everybody.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I don't know if he wanted me to grab the
case file from work.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Like let's go over this now in the middle of.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Me trying to get my fucking shake. But anyway, sorry,
so jobs. I would hire her because I just want to,
like know what's I wouldn't hire her around dead people
because I feel like she wouldn't be a good fit. Yeah,
I don't know if okay, proma not. Her case was
actually the subject of much, much, much research due to
(09:42):
her sex, as only ten percent of known neckro files
are women. Again hired, I need to know more?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
See that? I just, uh, that just makes my brain
go in a tangent because now I'm like, okay, so
does that mean ninety percent of NACKA files are men?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's how men, that's how math works. Yep, yeah, one
hundred minds ten is ninety.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
I had to repeat algebra two.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Okay, this isn't algebra. It's just basic math, pluses and minuses.
I'm bad at math? Why do you hate me? Sorry?
But yes you are correct, ma'am. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Okay, So I'm gonna talk about this Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Okay, yes, I'm gonna let Yeah, I want you to
take this next section because like, I had a lot
of thoughts I searched on this part.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
So December seventeenth, nineteen seventy nine, Miss Karen Karen Tol
the body of a thirty three year old man who
had died a whole week prior. This man was whole
one week dead.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
He was proper stinky. It's a very freshnurs like okay,
so wait, so I was just say, I'm so sorry.
Does she open the drawer and him out?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Like okay, I already know, Like did she open like
the door in the morgue too?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yes? So like is that how she chose? Like I
need more information. We might get to some of it,
but I need more information about like how she chose
her victims, Like was she just going through the drawers
like ooh ooh that one, or was it like all opportunistic,
which is the way it sounds for this particular person
that was Let me tell you, all right, okay, so
(11:24):
let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
The corpse was in a Cadillac, a nineteen seventy five Cadillac. Hearse,
hell yeah, and I she was in charge of driving it,
okay to a private burial. This was a private burial.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's not really private because it's in public and you're
talking about it.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
But so as she was like, come driving up to
the burial site, she.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It's not funny somebody family member.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Because I can picture this in my head. She saw
some of his family members standing around the burial site,
and she did a full and turn around and drove off.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
She say, hang on, I forgot something. I forgot the body.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Are done? Okay. So the cops were able to get her.
They were able to find her, but only after the
family reported what happened.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Mmkay.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
But that wasn't for.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Four whole days.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Four days head there, What was she doing with this
corpse for four days.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
That's why we're here, Kelsey. Because by the time they
fucking did find her, they found her like trying to
commit suicide. They were like, why don't we why though,
like what okay for it? She was rushed to the
hospital because they were like, dude, we really need to
question you, but we kind of need you to be
alive for this because although you like to play with
dead people, we don't. So they pumped her stomach. They
(12:49):
saved her life.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Full stop. Why did they feel they need to pump
her stomach? What was she found doing other than suicide?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Swallowing the pills? She was swallowing pills? How she was
side got it.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Hoping that it was not We weren't being cannibals of
dead people.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I mean, they gave your dog medication that they don't
like and you wrap it in cheese. But maybe she
didn't like the pills and she wrapped it in flesh.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I feel like it's a very There was already a
very fine line, and she was like, I can cross
that line.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I'm already I'm really hungry. I've been here for four days.
I already fucked him. Maybe I can eat him. It
feels like it would be something she would do, just
saying I.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Don't want to think about that, but thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
You brought it up. So, according to Robert roschlu I
think the physician who pumped Greenley's stomach, she was quote
unquote extremely depressed and had attempted to commit suicide by
overdosing on about twenty pills of tailanol and codine, but
she survived. Prior to the police locating her, she had
(13:58):
written a goodbye note, which was a four and a
half hand page that was hand written by her, and
it was a confession in which she admitted to having
sex with twenty to forty bodies of men. In that note,
she stated that the smell of death turned her on,
and it was at this point, in addition.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Through a fucking candle.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Don't like Gwyneth Paltrow's vagina like that?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Okay, I wasn't going to bring that into this conversation,
but yeah, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah. I don't want to because it's weird to me.
But my thing, I don't know why this bothers me
so much. If you're going to handwrite a four and
a half page confession and you're gonna say, oh, my God,
the smell of this turned me on, and it's an addiction.
I feel like, wouldn't you know whether it was twenty
or forty? Like, why is it twenty two forty? Like
(14:47):
that's a huge gap.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
For one, maybe she you know what she maybe she
wasn't keeping count because she was high on pills.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
On Thailand, on Cody. Really is that where we're going?
We don't know, okay, Devil's Advocate. Still, twenty to forty
is a huge leap, Like, is she saying that because
she knows for certain that she has at least done
like more work with forty bodies? And she's like, I
could have fucked all forty. I'm not sure, but definitely
(15:16):
twenty I remember twenty of those fuckers. Like is that
her logic here?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
It kind of sounds like it just the way twenty
to forty is such a big just the way it
was written.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, it's a big.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
It's a big. If it was like thirty to forty,
I'd be like, right, there's a ten. It's it's like
that would be the lowest second or like thirty to four,
Like thirty five to forty. Cool, that's totally forty, right,
because like you may have missed a couple in there,
but like thirty twenty to forty, Like, how are you
missing twenty bodies?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Literally, that's like people saying I'll be there in like
forty to ninety minutes. No, no, you'll be there in
ten to fifteen maybe, Yeah, Like it just doesn't add
up for me. Yeah, and you're only thirty three. You're
telling me your memory is that bad? If you're addicted
to this, you know how many you did? You know
how many bodies you diddled? You know?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Can we talk about the fact that when she was
arrested though it wasn't illegal.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yes, not well, And that's the thing. It's like somebody
has to do something for people to be like, oh shit,
that's weird and long. I shouldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I guarantee there were probably other other necophiliacs.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Like in just actively doing their thing quiet.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
But like she she made the mistake when she made
a curse and she in front of the family, and
she not done that, she wouldn't have gotten caught.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Elsey, addiction is really hard to overcome when that urge comes.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Okay, Devil's Advocate, he was right there.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
She was smalling him.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Just I know, she couldn't help, and then.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
She's like, but if I put him on the ground,
I'll never get to and I'm really horning. Literally, that's
probably what she was thinking. That's disgusting, that's really sad.
That makes my stomach.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
True.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
No, but for real, for real, it was not illegals.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And this was nineteen seventies, Like, come on, never mind.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
You know how many days she spent in jail eleven,
you know where. Her fine was two hundred and fifty
five dollars.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And that wasn't even for the neper feeling in my
car payment.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
That was for stealing a hearse and interfering with the funeral.
Not having sex with the dead body, nope, not kidnapping
a dead body, nope, just for stealing the hearse and
interfering with the funeral. I didn't know you could get
in trouble for interfering with the funeral. I'm about to
interfere with all funerals and see what happened. I'm just kidding.
That's so rude. I would never do that. I can't
(17:44):
believe I just said that. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
I take all of that bang.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Like maybe there was just this weird unspoken rule amongst
the community, don't fuck the dead.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Well, if somebody would have just told me ahead of time,
that's what she was thinking.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I was about to say, heither, do we need to
have a conversation. No, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I'm too tired all the time.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I wouldn't really glad that that's your reason.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
No, it's just it's gross. I don't do well with
smells anyway. I don't know how that turns her on.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I don't know she's really see a therapist.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, she could have, so it wasn't illegal yet because,
like I guess, they really hadn't run into that being
an issue. And then this society was probably like, that's
fucking wrong. Why isn't that illegal yet? And they're like,
good point, let's going to put that in the books.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Right, like maybe we should make that a thing. What
happened when she got out.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
So when she got out, she was placed on probation
because you can't steal herses, okay and inappropriate wrong. The
probation included mandatory therapy, so she got her therapy, which
is nice, we're stealing hers, but she didn't have to pay,
so that was nice for her. She reported that this
did help her make peace with herself and how disgusting
(19:03):
she was. I added that last part. Sure, babe, we're
so glad you have peace.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Now, freaking dead piece.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Like you just stole Papa Timmy, whoever the fuck this
guy was. You just stole him from his family. They
were trying to say they're goodbyes. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
If you have a Papa Timmy out there.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I was just trying to think of the name that
nobody would have. Timmy isn't an old person's name.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Tommy is a young person's name.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
That's weird. That's that's why I said, okay, because it
was a man. I don't know. I don't know. I
can't think on the spot. But be so for real,
like you have peace with yourself about what parts stealing
the fuck hers or what not about fucking them you were.
(19:53):
If only I could do more so Greenly and Memorial
Lawn Mortuary, which is where she worked, we're both sued
for one million dollars by Marian Gonzalez, who was the
mother of the victim whom she stole. John L.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Mercure, Papa John, Papa John.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I do not want pizza now. But they were sued
for severe emotional distress. I would say a little bit
more than that, because, like, you have to think about
somebody fucking your dead son's corpse. It's really weird. How
I'm gonna be TMI right now. Okay, but I need
(20:40):
an answer. Okay, how the fuck you're not gonna be
able to get that guy's thing up? How are you
gonna fuck?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
No? I don't want to think about that.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
How. I'm sorry. I'm a logistical person. Okay, how are
you fucking him?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Like?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Are you just fondling him? These are things that are
wrong with her brain, and I need to know why
and what her thought process.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
That is not a that is not a thought I
wanted to have to have in my brain that I
have to now dissect.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's why this is the first episode tonight. So you're
gonna get it out. Won't get it up, but you
can get it out anyway. Why do I record you again?
I'm just kidding. No, So this was the family obviously
that we just discussed, of the person whom she stole
the hers of, right, so you know she skirted right
(21:32):
away from that funeral at the Superior Superior Court. Hearing
that word again yep, the defense psychiatrist, Captain Thompson. I know,
it's a weird name. It's his name, not mine. I
don't know. He said he did not think that the
event had quote unquote much of a lasting impact on
(21:53):
the victim's mother. What the actual fuck who said? Who?
He said had a history of alcoholism and depression in
which out of you, excuse the ship out of you, like,
regardless of whole mother's you know, mental health or anything
like that. I don't think that's appropriate for like an
expert witness to judge them on their grieving.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
That's like his that seems more of his personal opinion
than his professional.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Correct Like, how are you an expert witness? Like that
should have been thrown out. Honestly, that probably affected her
way more. She probably is a raging alcoholic now or
was after that. I'm assuming she's fuck past hopefully nowhere
near her. Yeah, that's not okay. I don't know. I
know you you had something about the the other Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
So I am going to butcher this man's last name.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, I haven't been down.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Richard A. Kapu Chinsky? Does that sound right? That sounds
like a never mind?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Richard A. Cappuccino.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
So he was the fellow and bomber and the fellow
colleague of Greenley or former colleague of Greenley. Sorry, can't
associate them now. So he testified to the jury that
there was no reason to suspect Greenley would commit such
a crime, describing her as quiet, incompetent.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
All right, so the lawsuits, there's no reason, even with
the four and a half page confession, there's no reason
I think that she would do that.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
How does one hear all of that in court and go, no,
she could never.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
You know, it's like the news stories where it's like
he was such a quiet guy. He was so nice,
such a good neighbor. You never think that it's always
it's always quiet. One what they're loud and rambunctious and
they're out front fucking using their vacuum cleaner in the
middle of the street, just to hear what the neighbors
have going on. Yeah, I'm cool with them. You know
what they're up to at all times. It is the
(23:54):
quiet motherfuckers. You gotta watch out.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I have always said to the people in my life, if
I ever get quiet, when you worry.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Oh, I told Jason, Yeah, I said, I haven't heard
from Kelsey in a while. She's probably murdering people. Yeah,
and he said, invite her over for lunch.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Jason's not afraid of me, no, I think he was.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Like, we'll see, we'll see. Yeah, we'll totally and then
if she comes over, then we know. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I wasn't murdering people anymore anyway. So the lawsuit was
eventually settled, but only for one hundred and seventeen thousand, which.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Is like a whole lot less than a million if
you know how to math.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, like I do know how to math that one,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I can math a little, okay, But what was that for? Though?
It wasn't even for what they sued for gen yer.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Old and punitive damages. That's it.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
That's it. That's nothing else, not for you touch them
a baby. Come on, dude. Yeah, he's so sad. So
a few years later, in nineteen eighty seven, like Greenley
decided it was time for her to speak out about
this shit. Like I always love to hear what they
say years later, you know, it.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Always just makes me happy because it's like, okay, yeah, sure,
go ahead, see if you can try to justify it,
like I would love.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
To hear this. She gave a detailed interview entitled The
Unrepentant Necrophile. Interesting choice you know about her necrophiliac. Necrophiliac.
That's a word, I swear it is interest to Jim
Morton for his book Apocalypse Culture, published by Farrell House,
(25:31):
which I'm gonna buy.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I was about to say, I think that I put
I added that to your part.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
So in this book she said that quote, one of
my brothers still isn't comfortable around me.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I mean, yeah, I found out my sibling was a
whole ass necrophiliac. I would not be comfortable around them.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Why you're not dead yet. You should be the most
comfortable while you're alive. But she's never gonna touch you.
It's fine, you've met both of my sisters.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
You imagine her.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Other brother was more supportive. But okay, so this is
again in her own words, So sorry, let me start over.
One of my brothers still is uncomfortable around me. My
other brother was more supportive, but even he had to ask,
how'd you do it?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Me too? I'm going to see that as the other
brother was, yes, he if he was being supportive, that
was him going, how did you do it? Because I
want to do it too. Ew that's how my that's
how it immediately clicks in my brain.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Eowa, I did not Why did we not investigate it?
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Why why did no one investigate him? What if he
was doing it? Was it illegal in nineteen eighty seven? Whoa?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
There has so many more questions for me because now,
hold off. I when I first read that, when you
pulled that up, I was like, no, he's not supportive.
He's just like, oh my god, she's a fucking psycho.
I want to know how she did it, like my
inquiring mine a minute ago when I was like, no,
shut up.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Necrophilia m.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
And what.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Still?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Sexual penetration of a corpse was made illegal under the
Sexual Offenses Act in two thousand and three. It was
not illegal until two thousand and three. It is only
twenty twenty five? What the what the fuck?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Okay? So, if there are any necrophiles listening to this podcast,
we would love to talk to you about your escapades
between nineteen seventy nine and two thousand and three.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I want to call her brother.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
No, he was like, how'd you do it? I need
to start doing it because it's only nineteen eighty seven
and it's still legal. Why are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oh my god?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I feel like, what does happen?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Oh my god? Okay, anyway, okay.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Come on, okay, I need more information. But she described
her appreciation of the quote unquote the cold, the aura
of death, the smell of death, the funeral surroundings end
quote associated with her activity. I mean she's a wordsmith.
(28:18):
She further discussed topics such as suicide and psychotherapy.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Girl, did you partake in psychotherapy because you needed it?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Greenley later reportedly regretted the interview, changed her identity and
moved to another city. How will we ever know what
happened to her? Who's your brother? Brother? Where art thou?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Like?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I am so blown away right now, though, I want
to know.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I want to know a where's the brother? Brother?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Brother?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeat? Brother?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Did you change your name to too?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Why was it not made illegal until two thousand and
fucking threats?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I know what happened? Where the government? I was like,
oh my god, we just got to make this illegal already.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're telling me for the first ten years of my
life it was still legal.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
You were born in ninety three? Yes, we how long
are we? Sorry? Sorry? Yes? I mean I knew you
were young.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Oh I am not that much cheery than you. Okay,
you act like you're seventy. I feel like, did you
or did you not comment when I got out of
my car earlier?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
And if you sound a crickety when you were breaking
up you called me grandma? Okay, So anyway, bring in
the roots of the show back, nature, nurture, narcissism, because
we don't have a whole lot of information about her,
but we don't have a lot of information.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
About her growing up. Correct The only I remember, the
only like real information I had found in my research,
which honestly it wasn't very much because she changed her identity,
so they're all there really wasn't much to read about
her her life. So it's like, okay, so we're speculating
(30:07):
nature versus nature solely on what we're reading. Now, let
me know about her now, and without knowing that I
don't know, I can't, Like, I don't one percent know.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I found a couple of things that may shed some
light on it, but may not give us all the
answers we need. So her father, his name was al Myers,
said Greenley had been sexually molested at age eight and
raped by a teacher at age fourteen while living in
Sonoma County, California. Then afterwards she moved with her family
(30:45):
to Colfax, California, where she graduated from high school. But dude,
think about those ages though, For something like that to
happen to you, that's really gonna traumatize you. That's gonna
create some PTSD. I'm sure of it. There's gonna be some.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Serious ramifications afterwards.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
And to deal with.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
You said it wasn't until age nine eight eight?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
M okay, so lestad ay age eight and then raped
my teacher at fourteen, And you think about the time
frame of a child of those ages.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I have an eight year old, yeah, like an eight
year old daughter. That that makes me sad for child
Karen Greenley, for that child, for that version of her.
That makes my heart heart as a mother, for that
version of her, Which.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
It doesn't excuse her being thought, it does give you
some insight into what she had to grow up with
and deal with potentially on her own. Like yes, maybe
her dad said this later on down the line, but
what was done to help her during that time and
protect her from it happening again by her teacher? Like,
there's so much that goes into it.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
And you're supposed to be safe at school, You're supposed
to be safe.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Your home and home are supposed to.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Be safest places. Yeah, anywhere else it's not as safe,
But like those are you supposed to be your two
safe places, and it's our job as parents to make
sure that those are your safe places well and teachers.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
And not only that, but if you're eight and you're
getting molested by somebody, you don't know what's happening that
and usually at that age it's somebody who's very close
to you, somebody who knows you. Could have been a
family member, We don't know. But those things you not
being protected, and that in your supposed safest environment, and
(32:30):
then that trauma not being dealt with and addressed, and
you know, you being shown what is right, what is wrong,
how to protect yourself in the future, what grooming looks like,
things like that. Of course, you're gonna be more vulnerable
as a fourteen year old going through puberty to be
molested or raped, in this case by another trusted person,
(32:52):
a teacher. That's that that part of her story. If
I had read that part of her story before the
rest of it. I would been more sympathetic about her crimes,
but since I read her crimes first, I'm like, dude,
this bitch is fucked well.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, because like most of the that's how it is
with most criminals. You only see their crime verse. You
don't see their version as a child, as who they
were and how they grew up.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Knowing that it changes a lot for me. I still
think it's really fucking wrong and gross, and I don't
take back anything I said, but I do think that
that definitely changed the trajectory of her life.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, so it's more nurture versus nature.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, she was.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
She because for the first eight years of her life.
I mean, and again we don't know what was going
on her crying for the first years of her life.
But again, your brain doesn't really start developing and you
don't start developing your own kind of thoughts until three
or four years old. I mean, you have thoughts, but you're.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Not able to attach them and form opinions and things
like that, make decision like that, and still learning to human.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Right, Yeah, exactly. And I have four year old too,
who is feral, and fucking is he faling? Is He's
so precious, but he's so virile, he makes decisions, not
the right decisions.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Because he's four, because yeah, because and he still needs
that parental guidance, right, So.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I think a lot of that might be just I mean,
that would fuck up anybody. Yeah, And it makes me
sad for the child version of her.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
But it also it takes still off about her family,
like her her protectors, like guardians, her parents. Where were you?
Why didn't you get her help? Right?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Because that could have led her down a different path. Ultimately,
she made the decision correct, She made the choice to
do what she did, which is not okay in any way.
But I feel as though if she had been protected
more as a child, if she had been protected by
the teacher and the person who hurt her, and her
family knowing who hurt her, because obviously her father knew,
(34:56):
obviously her mother probably knew, her whole family probably knew.
That was the nineteen seventy nineteen sixties at that point,
because if she was oh god, if she was thirties,
that was the night that would have been, like the
nineteen thirties, nineteen forties.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
She was a child.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, So I feel like it's it's not necessarily the
way she grew.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, she was born in nineteen fifty eight, so.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Okay, yeah, okay, Oh she.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Was thirty three, so sorry everyone, she was thirty three
in nineteen seventy nine when she committed that crowd.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Okay, so that makes okay, So that makes more sense. Yeah,
so that she she's born in fifty eight, but like
still nineteen fifty nineteen sixties.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, I just did it.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
I know that was a different time period, yeah, and
I recognize that, but I also feel like that still
should have been something that it should be a parental
instinct if something like that happens to your child. And again,
different time period, and I'm sure anybody born in that
time period can attest to that. Yeah, it was. It
was very different, and maybe you didn't want to have
(36:02):
that be public information or even just out in the world.
But at the same time, who gives a fuck, it's
your child.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Well, and my thing with that is too because it
was a different time because they didn't really talk about
things like that, you know, and especially like with mental
health issues, and you know, kind of like it. It's
one of those things that feels like to me, like
buck up, buttercup, right, sort of thing. But also we
don't know when he found out about this. What if
(36:32):
he found out about this after everything came out and
she disclosed that information, you know, and he related, Who knows,
Because I feel like that may have been a time
when they wouldn't have been talked about. Yeah, she especially
like women already feel shamed and scared. Yeah, And it's
(36:55):
a very different culture around that kind of stuff and
mental health in the stick everything that comes along with it.
Back then, it wasn't talked about as much as the
way it is correct and back then even still, I
don't care what people say. Even during the sixties and
the seventies, it was very much still a man's world,
(37:15):
and you were just property most I so as a child,
you're to be seen and not heard. I heard that
so much grown up. I'm not even that old, and
I heard that so much by my own grandparents. We
weren't even allowed to talk, like if we were at
family functions unless my grandmother said a word to us.
We were not to talk if we were in the
(37:35):
presence of adults. It was weird. So I can only
imagine in the sixties and early seventies what.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Being children completely different yeah, yeah, I can. I can
get that.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
It just so, she probably bottled all that up. She
probably never told anybody. She may not even even realized
what it was that happened to her at the time.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Which and again that's why I think times have shifted.
The time has shifted so much now that parents now
were beginning to kind of like, I've told you this
with my children. With my kids, I don't I don't
hide those words from them. They know, they know the
parts of their body. They know who is allowed.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
To see in touch, to.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
See in touch and who is not Mom and dad
and their doctor. That is it. And they aren't even
allowed to do that. The doctors aren't allowed to do
that unless mom or dad is in the room because
it's not and they but.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Mom and dad are only allowed to if I yes.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
But other than that, they have privacy. They're they're entitled
to that.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, they have that and everything like.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
It drives me nuts. And I hear parents like, oh,
you know, like my daughter's cookie, no, ma'am when they.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Use those words, because the kids get so confused by this.
They're like, oh, well, you know, this guy touched my
cookie and you're just like going on about your business
while we're talking about food. And here's a cookie. Okay,
he touched my cookie, Okay, don't eat it? Thrown away? Right,
And so like I'm confusing to a kid. Yeah, I
have all.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Three of my kids know what the terms are for
their own body parts, because I could not imagine, oh god,
I could not imagine something like that happening to one
of my kids and them not feeling one comfortable enough
to tell me, and two coming to me trying to
tell me, but they use they can't use the words yeah.
And so like I want them to be able to
(39:20):
come to me and be like this person touched me
in this specific area and like I'm not going to
use the words, but like you know.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
What I mean.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
It just it, Oh my god. So like I can
only imagine like in the nineteen sixties that being those
words weren't used, bodily autonomy was not properly taught, yes,
and it was such a different time like it. Ugh,
it makes my skin crawl thinking about it because she
probably she may not even realize what was happening, like
you said.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
And then you know, and most often when they're that age,
it's somebody that's very close to the family Uncle this, uncle, that, aunt,
this ant that, because that's not as uncommon as you think, right,
She's just not talked about as much. Well, yeah, I
mean I have a whole nother series that I plan
to do, and I'll tell you about that after this.
But it just made me think of it. I've already
got like six cases for that one ready. But it's
(40:11):
just wild to me because they're groomed for so long,
and you know, these parents entrust these other individuals, these
other adults in their lives most of the time, like
I said, family members or very close family friends that
talk or identify themselves as uncle this, uncle, that, cousin,
this cousin that whatever. So if the lines, just like
(40:32):
with the words that you were talking about, get very blurred.
And these children are groomed for so long by uncle this,
by uncle that, that they believe this is what love is, right,
and when Uncle this touches you here, this is love.
But this is our secret. You just never fucking know.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
I have always told my kids, like, do not unless
the only type of secrets that I have ever told
them that they are allowed to keep are tell me
like presents.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Oh, like if they have like.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
A paring if they have like a present, like if like, okay,
we have a present for Dad, or we have a
present for Yeah, Yeah, Okay, we're gonna keep that secret
from this person. Yeah, but like hell, if somebody tries
to touch you in a spot that you know is
not appropriate, that will never be kept a secret that
should never be kept for you.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Come and you tell me immediately, like and if you
feel unsafe in the moment, or like it's so hard,
like I feel like we're going down a road that
we could talk about for hours, but like, yeah, it's
one of those things where it's like you should never
feel unsafe to come to me to tell me about it,
and you should never feel bad that you're gonna get
(41:41):
that person in trouble or Mommy's gonna be mad at
this person. Now that's the fucking matter, because you do, kiddo.
You always come first, Your safety always comes first. And
mom will never be mad at you. That's what I
want parents to tell their kids, like all the mom
will never be mad at you at all. I'm always
gonna be here to protect.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
And I feel like if if Karen Greenley's parents had
done that.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
We might be not talking about her right now, you
may not even know who she is, so that, yeah,
it's sad that that's.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Part of it.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
So I wish I hadn't found that part. I wish
you hadn't found that part, because like we could have
just like joked about her the whole time. And now
I feel like a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Okay, but I also have to remember, as sad as
that is, she was still the piece of shit she
chose to do. She chose to.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Somebody, to stole somebody, to steal somebody and fondle him.
It's not okay, all right, Sorry, sorry, sorry, okay. So
there have been a couple of films made about Greenley,
which it took me forever to find them, and I
think one of them isn't it different language? Which is?
Speaker 1 (42:48):
And I found a I had found a clip of it.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Did you find the dubbed version? Because I can't, okay, So.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
I didn't get a chance to finish digging on that one,
but I found a clip of that.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
One, and I'm going I'm gonna have to try because
there's there's one called Kissed, directed by Lynn Stopkowitch. I can't.
I don't know. I'm so sorry. And a documentary made
in twenty twenty one called Confessions of a necrofile Girl.
I think that's the one that's in the other language.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
It's like, I think it's French French.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
I think it's French French or German, but I think French.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
If you find it, yes, tell us.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
But if we're able to watch either or both, we
will come back and do like a couple of Patreon
episodes about them, because I did watch a clip of
it and I was like, oh, girl, no, the way
she was walking in that room and like in the dark.
I was like, girl, you're not okay in the brain.
I'm so sorry. Yeah, so we'll try to do that.
(43:43):
So if you're interested in ad free content Patreon, I
know we haven't been here for a really really long time,
but we still when we do post, we will post
ad free stuff. Little is a dollar a month, probably
only a dollar a month for a while because like,
we haven't been posting shit, so I'm sorry, you know,
Just go to patreon dot com, lash Envan Podcast, and
then you can also check out our website www dot
(44:04):
Nature versus nurses dot com. It's really hard to spell.
Sometimes you'll figure it out, but until next time, stay inside,
stay alive, and don't call the cops. Bye oh Karen.
H M.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome back to Nature Versus Narcissism. I'm your host, Heather,
and today I have a return guest. We have Kelsey
and for We do have the podcast, of course, but
we also we are trying something new with TikTok. So
for TikTok, this is probably gonna be the first trial
(00:34):
and talking.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It might be a little rough, but this isn't like
we said trial.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll see
if the works of a dozen then none of this
matters right now.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I mean, to be fair, we are we are some millennials.
We're like in the elder millennials section, all.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Right, anyway, elders and millennials in the same sentence. I'm
not digging it. So thanks a lot for case. So
we're just gonna go ahead and get started. I know
that it's been quite a long ass time since, you know,
we've recorded for the podcast, and I truly apologize for that.
Life is obviously fucking hectic for any adult out there.
(01:12):
You know this, and I'm not. I mean, life is
fucking hard, okay, Like I don't even sleep anymore. The
last time I think that we actually recorded for Envy
in was for our Halloween series. Now that's not to
say that we haven't done research, because there's been a
ton of research done by myself, by Brittany, who you
(01:33):
guys know very well on the channel, on the show,
and then Kelsey's done research. We've had a couple of
other people send research to us, so like it's been done,
it's just really hard to find time to record anything.
So and currently Brittany is planning a wedding, so I'm
not so happy, but it's a lot anybody who's ever
(01:56):
planned a wedding. I mean I started planning my wedding
and then I said nah, fam and we got married
in his mom's living room because I couldn't handle it.
It was too much.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I say, I didn't really play a wedding, yeah, first,
but I did play my second one, and it was
her even it wasn't even a large wedding, but it
was so nerve wracking. So I can only imagine who
many things, oh my, And there's.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Everything you have to think about the tiniest tiniest details,
and I just can't. That stresses me out. So even
though we've done the research, like Brittany and I both
have an entire series locked and loaded for you guys,
a celebrity series, which is why Kelsey and I are
not doing that right now, because you know we we
hinted at that during the Halloween episodes, and you know,
(02:37):
I just cannot wait. You know, she has her background
with theater and all of that, so which you are.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Well aware because you have a favorite background.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Too, But we just really we're saving that. That's that's
on me and Brittany thing.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So I'm excited to see.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, I'm so excited for that one. I know, I
know you are, and I'm sure you guys will have
a lot to talk about. But I just think that
just to get back to you guys, we decided to
throw together another series because kind of a last order
of business for this one. It's kind of funny. So
when we moved into this house in twenty twenty, during
(03:12):
the height of COVID, we it was kind of, I
don't even know how to say it. It was just
an amazing stroke of luck at that time to get
this house at this price. We weren't really expecting it.
It's our first house and we were so excited that
we just threw everything in toats and boxes let it go,
packed it all up. We were like, let's fucking go,
(03:33):
and then it's COVID, so we weren't recording with anybody
in person at all. Right, So a lot of our
tots that you know would have like storage things in them,
we kind of put them away. I had a couple
of podcast totes that I was like, where the fuck
did they go?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
We moved.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Recently, I was going through said tots because, as everybody knows,
my stepdaughter is in college and she just moved again,
got her own apartment, and I was kind of going
through some stuff trying to find some empty notes for her,
and I found some podcast notes that had my old
notebooks because I used to write everything, like handwrite everything
(04:11):
in the beginning of this podcast, and I found so
many like little posted notes and little like handwritten like
you know those lined posted like where your to do list? Yeah,
but they had episodes suggestions, and some of them had
names of people that sent them. So as we go along,
(04:32):
if some of those have people's names on them, we
are going to shout them out on the episodes and
then just to kind of go along with that. Recently,
we've had a couple of people come to both of
us and suggest episodes, so we're gonna throw those in
the mix too. But I was so excited when I
found this one because it's one of the very first
people who connected with us when Envan started in the
(04:55):
very beginning, and I feel like trash that I lost
the post it with the name at the person I
never felt. I was never like, Okay, I'm gonna go
ask her again what she wanted us to cover. She
still talks to me on Facebook and everything. But now
Kimberly Kimberly, h. I don't want to say your last name,
just in case you don't want it out there. But
(05:15):
we found it. It made it, It made it to us,
So we are finally covering Karen Greenley, the female necrophile,
also known as the embalmer.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Listen this. Doing research into this episode, I was a
weird mix of that's disgusting and are you okay?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Like girl, are you okay?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Like?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
How did we get here? I am kind of pumped
about this one. It's not the longest episode, but it's
interesting and there's not a whole lot of stuff on it.
I'm not really excited.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
This one just makes it just makes you like there
are people that do that?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What the fuck? There are people that do this? An
more you wait for the next episode, So thank you, Kimberly.
We're finally covering it, and we'll take a really fast break.
But then when we come back, we're getting into it.
We're getting into Karen and what she was all about.
(06:17):
All right, So Karen Margaret Greenley was born in nineteen
fifty eight. She was an apprentcess in balmer in Sacramento, California,
who sexually assaulted over forty deceased individuals.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
That just makes me want to like it. We'll get
bored into it later.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
But like she called herself, this through me girl girl.
There are better nicknames, but she called herself the Morgat.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
How depraved of a human do you have to be
to look to look at yourself and go, you know what,
that's a badass nickname.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But listen though, I mean she was a little bit
creative because she did work in a more okay, but
a more rat But listen because it's very ratty.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Okay, but mom days, rat rat on somebody you tell
on yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
But rats also don't know, they don't do they not
do they not?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Damn it?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
They eat out dead bodies.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
This is coming from a woman who in high school
my nickname was squeaks?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
All right, is it because of the way you sneeze?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I don't that's not a sneeze. Why did she insist
on that?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I don't know. Well, she Karen is considered as the
quote unquote, can I.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Just put it?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
She's literally a Karen. I know, I was wondering when
you were gonna say it? Go on, I'm good, No, okay, okay.
She is considered as quote unquote the best known modern
practitioner of Negro feelings. So this you can, she can
put this on her resume. It feels like a job
title practitioner of if you. If I ever come across
(08:13):
a resume and it says that, it says hired immediately.
I don't need an interview. I need to ask you
questions about your brain. I need to ask the questions
about their brain.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
That's where they get It's like, yeah, we'll hire you
straight into a locked and padded room.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I'm just getting people off the streets.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, I'm doing my service, doing my due diligence.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Speaking of services today was fucking weird. I have a
job that I don't talk about on here. But when
your client approaches you in a public restaurant and says, hey,
in case you want to hear, in case you need
any information from my boss, he's standing right here, so uncomfortable.
(08:55):
So uncomfort That's all I'm gonna say about my job.
But basically, we're not allowed to discuss those matters with
our clients in public around others. There are violations. And
he literally brought his crew to the window of the
drive through.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
To what was he gonna do, do like a sing
along with everybody.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I don't know if he wanted me to grab the
case file from work.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Like let's go over this now in the middle of.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Me trying to get my fucking shake. But anyway, sorry,
so jobs. I would hire her because I just want to,
like know what's I wouldn't hire her around dead people
because I feel like she wouldn't be a good fit. Yeah,
I don't know if okay, proma not. Her case was
actually the subject of much, much, much research due to
(09:42):
her sex, as only ten percent of known neckro files
are women. Again hired, I need to know more?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
See that? I just, uh, that just makes my brain
go in a tangent because now I'm like, okay, so
does that mean ninety percent of NACKA files are men?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's how men, that's how math works. Yep, yeah, one
hundred minds ten is ninety.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
I had to repeat algebra two.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Okay, this isn't algebra. It's just basic math, pluses and minuses.
I'm bad at math? Why do you hate me? Sorry?
But yes you are correct, ma'am. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Okay, So I'm gonna talk about this Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Okay, yes, I'm gonna let Yeah, I want you to
take this next section because like, I had a lot
of thoughts I searched on this part.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
So December seventeenth, nineteen seventy nine, Miss Karen Karen Tol
the body of a thirty three year old man who
had died a whole week prior. This man was whole
one week dead.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
He was proper stinky. It's a very freshnurs like okay,
so wait, so I was just say, I'm so sorry.
Does she open the drawer and him out?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Like okay, I already know, Like did she open like
the door in the morgue too?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yes? So like is that how she chose? Like I
need more information. We might get to some of it,
but I need more information about like how she chose
her victims, Like was she just going through the drawers
like ooh ooh that one, or was it like all opportunistic,
which is the way it sounds for this particular person
that was Let me tell you, all right, okay, so
(11:24):
let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
The corpse was in a Cadillac, a nineteen seventy five Cadillac. Hearse,
hell yeah, and I she was in charge of driving it,
okay to a private burial. This was a private burial.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's not really private because it's in public and you're
talking about it.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
But so as she was like, come driving up to
the burial site, she.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It's not funny somebody family member.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Because I can picture this in my head. She saw
some of his family members standing around the burial site,
and she did a full and turn around and drove off.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
She say, hang on, I forgot something. I forgot the body.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Are done? Okay. So the cops were able to get her.
They were able to find her, but only after the
family reported what happened.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Mmkay.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
But that wasn't for.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Four whole days.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Four days head there, What was she doing with this
corpse for four days.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
That's why we're here, Kelsey. Because by the time they
fucking did find her, they found her like trying to
commit suicide. They were like, why don't we why though,
like what okay for it? She was rushed to the
hospital because they were like, dude, we really need to
question you, but we kind of need you to be
alive for this because although you like to play with
dead people, we don't. So they pumped her stomach. They
(12:49):
saved her life.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Full stop. Why did they feel they need to pump
her stomach? What was she found doing other than suicide?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Swallowing the pills? She was swallowing pills? How she was
side got it.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Hoping that it was not We weren't being cannibals of
dead people.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I mean, they gave your dog medication that they don't
like and you wrap it in cheese. But maybe she
didn't like the pills and she wrapped it in flesh.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I feel like it's a very There was already a
very fine line, and she was like, I can cross
that line.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I'm already I'm really hungry. I've been here for four days.
I already fucked him. Maybe I can eat him. It
feels like it would be something she would do, just
saying I.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Don't want to think about that, but thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
You brought it up. So, according to Robert roschlu I
think the physician who pumped Greenley's stomach, she was quote
unquote extremely depressed and had attempted to commit suicide by
overdosing on about twenty pills of tailanol and codine, but
she survived. Prior to the police locating her, she had
(13:58):
written a goodbye note, which was a four and a
half hand page that was hand written by her, and
it was a confession in which she admitted to having
sex with twenty to forty bodies of men. In that note,
she stated that the smell of death turned her on,
and it was at this point, in addition.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Through a fucking candle.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Don't like Gwyneth Paltrow's vagina like that?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Okay, I wasn't going to bring that into this conversation,
but yeah, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah. I don't want to because it's weird to me.
But my thing, I don't know why this bothers me
so much. If you're going to handwrite a four and
a half page confession and you're gonna say, oh, my God,
the smell of this turned me on, and it's an addiction.
I feel like, wouldn't you know whether it was twenty
or forty? Like, why is it twenty two forty? Like
(14:47):
that's a huge gap.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
For one, maybe she you know what she maybe she
wasn't keeping count because she was high on pills.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
On Thailand, on Cody. Really is that where we're going?
We don't know, okay, Devil's Advocate. Still, twenty to forty
is a huge leap, Like, is she saying that because
she knows for certain that she has at least done
like more work with forty bodies? And she's like, I
could have fucked all forty. I'm not sure, but definitely
(15:16):
twenty I remember twenty of those fuckers. Like is that
her logic here?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
It kind of sounds like it just the way twenty
to forty is such a big just the way it
was written.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, it's a big.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
It's a big. If it was like thirty to forty,
I'd be like, right, there's a ten. It's it's like
that would be the lowest second or like thirty to four,
Like thirty five to forty. Cool, that's totally forty, right,
because like you may have missed a couple in there,
but like thirty twenty to forty, Like, how are you
missing twenty bodies?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Literally, that's like people saying I'll be there in like
forty to ninety minutes. No, no, you'll be there in
ten to fifteen maybe, Yeah, Like it just doesn't add
up for me. Yeah, and you're only thirty three. You're
telling me your memory is that bad? If you're addicted
to this, you know how many you did? You know
how many bodies you diddled? You know?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Can we talk about the fact that when she was
arrested though it wasn't illegal.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yes, not well, And that's the thing. It's like somebody
has to do something for people to be like, oh shit,
that's weird and long. I shouldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I guarantee there were probably other other necophiliacs.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Like in just actively doing their thing quiet.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
But like she she made the mistake when she made
a curse and she in front of the family, and
she not done that, she wouldn't have gotten caught.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Elsey, addiction is really hard to overcome when that urge comes.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Okay, Devil's Advocate, he was right there.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
She was smalling him.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Just I know, she couldn't help, and then.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
She's like, but if I put him on the ground,
I'll never get to and I'm really horning. Literally, that's
probably what she was thinking. That's disgusting, that's really sad.
That makes my stomach.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
True.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
No, but for real, for real, it was not illegals.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And this was nineteen seventies, Like, come on, never mind.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
You know how many days she spent in jail eleven,
you know where. Her fine was two hundred and fifty
five dollars.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And that wasn't even for the neper feeling in my
car payment.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
That was for stealing a hearse and interfering with the funeral.
Not having sex with the dead body, nope, not kidnapping
a dead body, nope, just for stealing the hearse and
interfering with the funeral. I didn't know you could get
in trouble for interfering with the funeral. I'm about to
interfere with all funerals and see what happened. I'm just kidding.
That's so rude. I would never do that. I can't
(17:44):
believe I just said that. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
I take all of that bang.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Like maybe there was just this weird unspoken rule amongst
the community, don't fuck the dead.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Well, if somebody would have just told me ahead of time,
that's what she was thinking.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I was about to say, heither, do we need to
have a conversation. No, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I'm too tired all the time.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I wouldn't really glad that that's your reason.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
No, it's just it's gross. I don't do well with
smells anyway. I don't know how that turns her on.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I don't know she's really see a therapist.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, she could have, so it wasn't illegal yet because,
like I guess, they really hadn't run into that being
an issue. And then this society was probably like, that's
fucking wrong. Why isn't that illegal yet? And they're like,
good point, let's going to put that in the books.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Right, like maybe we should make that a thing. What
happened when she got out.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
So when she got out, she was placed on probation
because you can't steal herses, okay and inappropriate wrong. The
probation included mandatory therapy, so she got her therapy, which
is nice, we're stealing hers, but she didn't have to pay,
so that was nice for her. She reported that this
did help her make peace with herself and how disgusting
(19:03):
she was. I added that last part. Sure, babe, we're
so glad you have peace.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Now, freaking dead piece.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Like you just stole Papa Timmy, whoever the fuck this
guy was. You just stole him from his family. They
were trying to say they're goodbyes. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
If you have a Papa Timmy out there.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I was just trying to think of the name that
nobody would have. Timmy isn't an old person's name.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Tommy is a young person's name.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
That's weird. That's that's why I said, okay, because it
was a man. I don't know. I don't know. I
can't think on the spot. But be so for real,
like you have peace with yourself about what parts stealing
the fuck hers or what not about fucking them you were.
(19:53):
If only I could do more so Greenly and Memorial
Lawn Mortuary, which is where she worked, we're both sued
for one million dollars by Marian Gonzalez, who was the
mother of the victim whom she stole. John L.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Mercure, Papa John, Papa John.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I do not want pizza now. But they were sued
for severe emotional distress. I would say a little bit
more than that, because, like, you have to think about
somebody fucking your dead son's corpse. It's really weird. How
I'm gonna be TMI right now. Okay, but I need
(20:40):
an answer. Okay, how the fuck you're not gonna be
able to get that guy's thing up? How are you
gonna fuck?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
No? I don't want to think about that.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
How. I'm sorry. I'm a logistical person. Okay, how are
you fucking him?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Like?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Are you just fondling him? These are things that are
wrong with her brain, and I need to know why
and what her thought process.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
That is not a that is not a thought I
wanted to have to have in my brain that I
have to now dissect.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's why this is the first episode tonight. So you're
gonna get it out. Won't get it up, but you
can get it out anyway. Why do I record you again?
I'm just kidding. No, So this was the family obviously
that we just discussed, of the person whom she stole
the hers of, right, so you know she skirted right
(21:32):
away from that funeral at the Superior Superior Court. Hearing
that word again yep, the defense psychiatrist, Captain Thompson. I know,
it's a weird name. It's his name, not mine. I
don't know. He said he did not think that the
event had quote unquote much of a lasting impact on
(21:53):
the victim's mother. What the actual fuck who said? Who?
He said had a history of alcoholism and depression in
which out of you, excuse the ship out of you, like,
regardless of whole mother's you know, mental health or anything
like that. I don't think that's appropriate for like an
expert witness to judge them on their grieving.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
That's like his that seems more of his personal opinion
than his professional.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Correct Like, how are you an expert witness? Like that
should have been thrown out. Honestly, that probably affected her
way more. She probably is a raging alcoholic now or
was after that. I'm assuming she's fuck past hopefully nowhere
near her. Yeah, that's not okay. I don't know. I
know you you had something about the the other Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
So I am going to butcher this man's last name.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, I haven't been down.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Richard A. Kapu Chinsky? Does that sound right? That sounds
like a never mind?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Richard A. Cappuccino.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
So he was the fellow and bomber and the fellow
colleague of Greenley or former colleague of Greenley. Sorry, can't
associate them now. So he testified to the jury that
there was no reason to suspect Greenley would commit such
a crime, describing her as quiet, incompetent.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
All right, so the lawsuits, there's no reason, even with
the four and a half page confession, there's no reason
I think that she would do that.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
How does one hear all of that in court and go, no,
she could never.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
You know, it's like the news stories where it's like
he was such a quiet guy. He was so nice,
such a good neighbor. You never think that it's always
it's always quiet. One what they're loud and rambunctious and
they're out front fucking using their vacuum cleaner in the
middle of the street, just to hear what the neighbors
have going on. Yeah, I'm cool with them. You know
what they're up to at all times. It is the
(23:54):
quiet motherfuckers. You gotta watch out.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I have always said to the people in my life, if
I ever get quiet, when you worry.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Oh, I told Jason, Yeah, I said, I haven't heard
from Kelsey in a while. She's probably murdering people. Yeah,
and he said, invite her over for lunch.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Jason's not afraid of me, no, I think he was.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Like, we'll see, we'll see. Yeah, we'll totally and then
if she comes over, then we know. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I wasn't murdering people anymore anyway. So the lawsuit was
eventually settled, but only for one hundred and seventeen thousand, which.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Is like a whole lot less than a million if
you know how to math.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, like I do know how to math that one,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I can math a little, okay, But what was that for? Though?
It wasn't even for what they sued for gen yer.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Old and punitive damages. That's it.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
That's it. That's nothing else, not for you touch them
a baby. Come on, dude. Yeah, he's so sad. So
a few years later, in nineteen eighty seven, like Greenley
decided it was time for her to speak out about
this shit. Like I always love to hear what they
say years later, you know, it.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Always just makes me happy because it's like, okay, yeah, sure,
go ahead, see if you can try to justify it,
like I would love.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
To hear this. She gave a detailed interview entitled The
Unrepentant Necrophile. Interesting choice you know about her necrophiliac. Necrophiliac.
That's a word, I swear it is interest to Jim
Morton for his book Apocalypse Culture, published by Farrell House,
(25:31):
which I'm gonna buy.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I was about to say, I think that I put
I added that to your part.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
So in this book she said that quote, one of
my brothers still isn't comfortable around me.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I mean, yeah, I found out my sibling was a
whole ass necrophiliac. I would not be comfortable around them.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Why you're not dead yet. You should be the most
comfortable while you're alive. But she's never gonna touch you.
It's fine, you've met both of my sisters.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
You imagine her.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Other brother was more supportive. But okay, so this is
again in her own words, So sorry, let me start over.
One of my brothers still is uncomfortable around me. My
other brother was more supportive, but even he had to ask,
how'd you do it?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Me too? I'm going to see that as the other
brother was, yes, he if he was being supportive, that
was him going, how did you do it? Because I
want to do it too. Ew that's how my that's
how it immediately clicks in my brain.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Eowa, I did not Why did we not investigate it?
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Why why did no one investigate him? What if he
was doing it? Was it illegal in nineteen eighty seven? Whoa?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
There has so many more questions for me because now,
hold off. I when I first read that, when you
pulled that up, I was like, no, he's not supportive.
He's just like, oh my god, she's a fucking psycho.
I want to know how she did it, like my
inquiring mine a minute ago when I was like, no,
shut up.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Necrophilia m.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
And what.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Still?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Sexual penetration of a corpse was made illegal under the
Sexual Offenses Act in two thousand and three. It was
not illegal until two thousand and three. It is only
twenty twenty five? What the what the fuck?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Okay? So, if there are any necrophiles listening to this podcast,
we would love to talk to you about your escapades
between nineteen seventy nine and two thousand and three.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I want to call her brother.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
No, he was like, how'd you do it? I need
to start doing it because it's only nineteen eighty seven
and it's still legal. Why are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oh my god?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I feel like, what does happen?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Oh my god? Okay, anyway, okay.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Come on, okay, I need more information. But she described
her appreciation of the quote unquote the cold, the aura
of death, the smell of death, the funeral surroundings end
quote associated with her activity. I mean she's a wordsmith.
(28:18):
She further discussed topics such as suicide and psychotherapy.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Girl, did you partake in psychotherapy because you needed it?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Greenley later reportedly regretted the interview, changed her identity and
moved to another city. How will we ever know what
happened to her? Who's your brother? Brother? Where art thou?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Like?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I am so blown away right now, though, I want
to know.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I want to know a where's the brother? Brother?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Brother?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeat? Brother?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Did you change your name to too?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Why was it not made illegal until two thousand and
fucking threats?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I know what happened? Where the government? I was like,
oh my god, we just got to make this illegal already.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're telling me for the first ten years of my
life it was still legal.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
You were born in ninety three? Yes, we how long
are we? Sorry? Sorry? Yes? I mean I knew you
were young.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Oh I am not that much cheery than you. Okay,
you act like you're seventy. I feel like, did you
or did you not comment when I got out of
my car earlier?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
And if you sound a crickety when you were breaking
up you called me grandma? Okay, So anyway, bring in
the roots of the show back, nature, nurture, narcissism, because
we don't have a whole lot of information about her,
but we don't have a lot of information.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
About her growing up. Correct The only I remember, the
only like real information I had found in my research,
which honestly it wasn't very much because she changed her identity,
so they're all there really wasn't much to read about
her her life. So it's like, okay, so we're speculating
(30:07):
nature versus nature solely on what we're reading. Now, let
me know about her now, and without knowing that I
don't know, I can't, Like, I don't one percent know.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I found a couple of things that may shed some
light on it, but may not give us all the
answers we need. So her father, his name was al Myers,
said Greenley had been sexually molested at age eight and
raped by a teacher at age fourteen while living in
Sonoma County, California. Then afterwards she moved with her family
(30:45):
to Colfax, California, where she graduated from high school. But dude,
think about those ages though, For something like that to
happen to you, that's really gonna traumatize you. That's gonna
create some PTSD. I'm sure of it. There's gonna be some.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Serious ramifications afterwards.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
And to deal with.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
You said it wasn't until age nine eight eight?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
M okay, so lestad ay age eight and then raped
my teacher at fourteen, And you think about the time
frame of a child of those ages.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I have an eight year old, yeah, like an eight
year old daughter. That that makes me sad for child
Karen Greenley, for that child, for that version of her.
That makes my heart heart as a mother, for that
version of her, Which.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
It doesn't excuse her being thought, it does give you
some insight into what she had to grow up with
and deal with potentially on her own. Like yes, maybe
her dad said this later on down the line, but
what was done to help her during that time and
protect her from it happening again by her teacher? Like,
there's so much that goes into it.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
And you're supposed to be safe at school, You're supposed
to be safe.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Your home and home are supposed to.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Be safest places. Yeah, anywhere else it's not as safe,
But like those are you supposed to be your two
safe places, and it's our job as parents to make
sure that those are your safe places well and teachers.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
And not only that, but if you're eight and you're
getting molested by somebody, you don't know what's happening that
and usually at that age it's somebody who's very close
to you, somebody who knows you. Could have been a
family member, We don't know. But those things you not
being protected, and that in your supposed safest environment, and
(32:30):
then that trauma not being dealt with and addressed, and
you know, you being shown what is right, what is wrong,
how to protect yourself in the future, what grooming looks like,
things like that. Of course, you're gonna be more vulnerable
as a fourteen year old going through puberty to be
molested or raped, in this case by another trusted person,
(32:52):
a teacher. That's that that part of her story. If
I had read that part of her story before the
rest of it. I would been more sympathetic about her crimes,
but since I read her crimes first, I'm like, dude,
this bitch is fucked well.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, because like most of the that's how it is
with most criminals. You only see their crime verse. You
don't see their version as a child, as who they
were and how they grew up.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Knowing that it changes a lot for me. I still
think it's really fucking wrong and gross, and I don't
take back anything I said, but I do think that
that definitely changed the trajectory of her life.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, so it's more nurture versus nature.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, she was.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
She because for the first eight years of her life.
I mean, and again we don't know what was going
on her crying for the first years of her life.
But again, your brain doesn't really start developing and you
don't start developing your own kind of thoughts until three
or four years old. I mean, you have thoughts, but you're.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Not able to attach them and form opinions and things
like that, make decision like that, and still learning to human.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Right, Yeah, exactly. And I have four year old too,
who is feral, and fucking is he faling? Is He's
so precious, but he's so virile, he makes decisions, not
the right decisions.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Because he's four, because yeah, because and he still needs
that parental guidance, right, So.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I think a lot of that might be just I mean,
that would fuck up anybody. Yeah, And it makes me
sad for the child version of her.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
But it also it takes still off about her family,
like her her protectors, like guardians, her parents. Where were you?
Why didn't you get her help? Right?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Because that could have led her down a different path. Ultimately,
she made the decision correct, She made the choice to
do what she did, which is not okay in any way.
But I feel as though if she had been protected
more as a child, if she had been protected by
the teacher and the person who hurt her, and her
family knowing who hurt her, because obviously her father knew,
(34:56):
obviously her mother probably knew, her whole family probably knew.
That was the nineteen seventy nineteen sixties at that point,
because if she was oh god, if she was thirties,
that was the night that would have been, like the
nineteen thirties, nineteen forties.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
She was a child.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, So I feel like it's it's not necessarily the
way she grew.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, she was born in nineteen fifty eight, so.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Okay, yeah, okay, Oh she.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Was thirty three, so sorry everyone, she was thirty three
in nineteen seventy nine when she committed that crowd.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Okay, so that makes okay, So that makes more sense. Yeah,
so that she she's born in fifty eight, but like
still nineteen fifty nineteen sixties.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, I just did it.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
I know that was a different time period, yeah, and
I recognize that, but I also feel like that still
should have been something that it should be a parental
instinct if something like that happens to your child. And again,
different time period, and I'm sure anybody born in that
time period can attest to that. Yeah, it was. It
was very different, and maybe you didn't want to have
(36:02):
that be public information or even just out in the world.
But at the same time, who gives a fuck, it's
your child.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Well, and my thing with that is too because it
was a different time because they didn't really talk about
things like that, you know, and especially like with mental
health issues, and you know, kind of like it. It's
one of those things that feels like to me, like
buck up, buttercup, right, sort of thing. But also we
don't know when he found out about this. What if
(36:32):
he found out about this after everything came out and
she disclosed that information, you know, and he related, Who knows,
Because I feel like that may have been a time
when they wouldn't have been talked about. Yeah, she especially
like women already feel shamed and scared. Yeah, And it's
(36:55):
a very different culture around that kind of stuff and
mental health in the stick everything that comes along with it.
Back then, it wasn't talked about as much as the
way it is correct and back then even still, I
don't care what people say. Even during the sixties and
the seventies, it was very much still a man's world,
(37:15):
and you were just property most I so as a child,
you're to be seen and not heard. I heard that
so much grown up. I'm not even that old, and
I heard that so much by my own grandparents. We
weren't even allowed to talk, like if we were at
family functions unless my grandmother said a word to us.
We were not to talk if we were in the
(37:35):
presence of adults. It was weird. So I can only
imagine in the sixties and early seventies what.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Being children completely different yeah, yeah, I can. I can
get that.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
It just so, she probably bottled all that up. She
probably never told anybody. She may not even even realized
what it was that happened to her at the time.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Which and again that's why I think times have shifted.
The time has shifted so much now that parents now
were beginning to kind of like, I've told you this
with my children. With my kids, I don't I don't
hide those words from them. They know, they know the
parts of their body. They know who is allowed.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
To see in touch, to.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
See in touch and who is not Mom and dad
and their doctor. That is it. And they aren't even
allowed to do that. The doctors aren't allowed to do
that unless mom or dad is in the room because
it's not and they but.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Mom and dad are only allowed to if I yes.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
But other than that, they have privacy. They're they're entitled
to that.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, they have that and everything like.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
It drives me nuts. And I hear parents like, oh,
you know, like my daughter's cookie, no, ma'am when they.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Use those words, because the kids get so confused by this.
They're like, oh, well, you know, this guy touched my
cookie and you're just like going on about your business
while we're talking about food. And here's a cookie. Okay,
he touched my cookie, Okay, don't eat it? Thrown away? Right,
And so like I'm confusing to a kid. Yeah, I
have all.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Three of my kids know what the terms are for
their own body parts, because I could not imagine, oh god,
I could not imagine something like that happening to one
of my kids and them not feeling one comfortable enough
to tell me, and two coming to me trying to
tell me, but they use they can't use the words yeah.
And so like I want them to be able to
(39:20):
come to me and be like this person touched me
in this specific area and like I'm not going to
use the words, but like you know.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
What I mean.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
It just it, Oh my god. So like I can
only imagine like in the nineteen sixties that being those
words weren't used, bodily autonomy was not properly taught, yes,
and it was such a different time like it. Ugh,
it makes my skin crawl thinking about it because she
probably she may not even realize what was happening, like
you said.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
And then you know, and most often when they're that age,
it's somebody that's very close to the family Uncle this, uncle, that, aunt,
this ant that, because that's not as uncommon as you think, right,
She's just not talked about as much. Well, yeah, I
mean I have a whole nother series that I plan
to do, and I'll tell you about that after this.
But it just made me think of it. I've already
got like six cases for that one ready. But it's
(40:11):
just wild to me because they're groomed for so long,
and you know, these parents entrust these other individuals, these
other adults in their lives most of the time, like
I said, family members or very close family friends that
talk or identify themselves as uncle this, uncle, that, cousin,
this cousin that whatever. So if the lines, just like
(40:32):
with the words that you were talking about, get very blurred.
And these children are groomed for so long by uncle this,
by uncle that, that they believe this is what love is, right,
and when Uncle this touches you here, this is love.
But this is our secret. You just never fucking know.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
I have always told my kids, like, do not unless
the only type of secrets that I have ever told
them that they are allowed to keep are tell me
like presents.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Oh, like if they have like.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
A paring if they have like a present, like if like, okay,
we have a present for Dad, or we have a
present for Yeah, Yeah, Okay, we're gonna keep that secret
from this person. Yeah, but like hell, if somebody tries
to touch you in a spot that you know is
not appropriate, that will never be kept a secret that
should never be kept for you.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Come and you tell me immediately, like and if you
feel unsafe in the moment, or like it's so hard,
like I feel like we're going down a road that
we could talk about for hours, but like, yeah, it's
one of those things where it's like you should never
feel unsafe to come to me to tell me about it,
and you should never feel bad that you're gonna get
(41:41):
that person in trouble or Mommy's gonna be mad at
this person. Now that's the fucking matter, because you do, kiddo.
You always come first, Your safety always comes first. And
mom will never be mad at you. That's what I
want parents to tell their kids, like all the mom
will never be mad at you at all. I'm always
gonna be here to protect.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
And I feel like if if Karen Greenley's parents had
done that.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
We might be not talking about her right now, you
may not even know who she is, so that, yeah,
it's sad that that's.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Part of it.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
So I wish I hadn't found that part. I wish
you hadn't found that part, because like we could have
just like joked about her the whole time. And now
I feel like a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Okay, but I also have to remember, as sad as
that is, she was still the piece of shit she
chose to do. She chose to.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Somebody, to stole somebody, to steal somebody and fondle him.
It's not okay, all right, Sorry, sorry, sorry, okay. So
there have been a couple of films made about Greenley,
which it took me forever to find them, and I
think one of them isn't it different language? Which is?
Speaker 1 (42:48):
And I found a I had found a clip of it.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Did you find the dubbed version? Because I can't, okay, So.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
I didn't get a chance to finish digging on that one,
but I found a clip of that.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
One, and I'm going I'm gonna have to try because
there's there's one called Kissed, directed by Lynn Stopkowitch. I can't.
I don't know. I'm so sorry. And a documentary made
in twenty twenty one called Confessions of a necrofile Girl.
I think that's the one that's in the other language.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
It's like, I think it's French French.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
I think it's French French or German, but I think French.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
If you find it, yes, tell us.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
But if we're able to watch either or both, we
will come back and do like a couple of Patreon
episodes about them, because I did watch a clip of
it and I was like, oh, girl, no, the way
she was walking in that room and like in the dark.
I was like, girl, you're not okay in the brain.
I'm so sorry. Yeah, so we'll try to do that.
(43:43):
So if you're interested in ad free content Patreon, I
know we haven't been here for a really really long time,
but we still when we do post, we will post
ad free stuff. Little is a dollar a month, probably
only a dollar a month for a while because like,
we haven't been posting shit, so I'm sorry, you know,
Just go to patreon dot com, lash Envan Podcast, and
then you can also check out our website www dot
(44:04):
Nature versus nurses dot com. It's really hard to spell.
Sometimes you'll figure it out, but until next time, stay inside,
stay alive, and don't call the cops. Bye oh Karen.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.