#598: Forex Tips for Passive Investors by Andrew Mitchem, Patrick Grimes & Steven Primo

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Right. This is Patrick Grimes that I'm really excited to
be here today with some awesome people talk about a
completely new alternative investing strategy we have not dug into
to this level before. Two like heavy hitters to talk
about it, and that is top currency trading strategies for
passive investors, also known as four X. Right.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
What is that?

Speaker 1 (00:33):
How does it work? What are the risks We're going
to dig into all that today? How to be successful
at it? Is it passive? Is it not? These are
all really cool things that I'm excited to learn about
it along with you. I haven't done this and this
is one of the passion projects. This is my passion
project here. This is our Alternative Investing Mastery series and
put on by Passive Investing Mastery and myself. And why

(00:56):
are we doing this? You know, we're doing this because
we want to educate, invent to achieve mastery in the
art of passive alternative investing strategies. So you keep your
life back. You could be passive, but you get into alternatives,
you're just all about the stock market. This is not
the right event for you or the right series for you,

(01:16):
because we're about non correlated investments. Outside of the stock
market once it don't rise and fall together. Now we
educate here. It's important for us. I'm on over one
hundred podcast in books, I've written articles and Forbes and others.
It's all on my website. Actually give away a couple
best selling books for free on our website if you're interested.

(01:37):
I actually sign them and send them out. Help inspire
people along their journey. And we have this bi weekly
webinar series which seems to have turned into a weekly
webinar series always featuring a blue ocean approach of different
alternative strategies. Now we're doing this because we believe financial
security happens through a lot of different allocations into different markets,
which can only be achieved into these very unique novel

(02:00):
alt strategies. And we want you to get to that
point where you have true not just independence, but security
and the abundance the financial blendans you need for the
cause you care about most. That's our mission here. We
do that through education and through sponsoring invest in class
alternative investments, which you can check it on our website.

(02:20):
The next event before we go any further, make sure
you jump in there. One week from today. Venture Capital
for passive investors, syndication strategies that works. I don't do
a lot of venture capital. It's not really my bag,
but a lot of people do. And a couple friends
of mine that I'm in large, very large real estate

(02:41):
deals with that have invested huge and we're some partners
in some of these deals. Isaac Bennett works for a
venture capital firm, I mean some masterminized with him and
he is doing real estate and venture capital. Trey Taylor
is a family office. He manages his own in all
of his relatives, is extended families funds, and he also

(03:02):
does angel adventure. So we're going to talk about it.
He's going to be there as well. It's going to
be a fascinating conversation knowing both these guys for some time,
and what are the different funding options in ventured capital,
risk rewards, how to leverage syndications, What are angel investments
and family office and high grow startups? What are these
things that allow you to really build that true resilient portfolio.

(03:26):
So we'll go through all of that today, but today
Currency Trading Strategies really excited about this. So let's go
to our panelists right now. We have Andrew Mitchem it's
tomorrow for him. He's in New Zealand right now. So
I appreciate you jumping across the pond virtually for us. Andrew.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Lovely to be here, Patrick.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
And by the way, four X is not like real estate.
It is global. You're trading global currencies. So these educators
is over one hundred and eight country he's trading in
right now. It doesn't matter where this expert is. If
he's somewhere on the planet Earth and he's got something
relevant to say for you and America about four X trading.

(04:11):
So he's a full time currency trader and investor since
two thousand and three, founder of the four X Trading coach,
providing training to traders in over one hundred and eight countries.
Pretty awesome, developed a profitable trading system after initial challenges.
I'd love to hear more about that. Advocates for the
flexibility and freedom offered by currency trading really excited to

(04:34):
have you here, Andrew. And on the other side of
the Pacific Ocean where I'm kind of sitting in the
middle is Steven Primo. Primo is the oracle here, I
think on the call is said, okay, if I call
you that Primo.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Fine, everyone calls me that as well. It's fine.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
Well, I'm glad because it made sense forty eight years
as of this year, he's been trading. He's been trading
for forty eight years, starting in nineteen seventy seven as
a floor reporter on the Pacific Stock Exchange. Former stock
Exchange specialists for Donaldson, Lufkin and Jenritt, managing markets in
over fifty stocks, co developer of the PTS Primo charging

(05:17):
charting platform focused on trading education. Once again, perfect, glad
to have you here. Featured in Stocks and Commodities Magazine.
He can is a contributor for tributor for trading markets
in the FX Street and Trader Expo. His proprietary methods
for trading are used in over one hundred countries. This

(05:38):
is a global strategy. Couldn't ask for a better group
of guys. Let's start with Andrew and then go to Steven,
and I'd like to hear why are you excited to
be here today educating us on currency trading strategies? Go ahead, Andrew, Hey, the.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
Patrick, Hi, everybody on he today.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
Because I absolutely love Bartsmocky and it's just completely changed
my life after the last twenty years and the more
that I can help through that to other people with development,
it's anome market to trade.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
And Steven, hello everyone, thanks for inviting me today. And
similar to what Andrews said, I've been trading for forty
eight years, but work about twenty years ago. I really
wanted to start sharing what I had learned, because you
can only go so far if you're just sitting in
a room trading by yourself. But to the point you
have to share with other people and that extends your
next level of trading. So I started teaching, and I'm

(06:35):
excited to teach people. It really is a lot. It
gives you a lot more satisfaction than just sitting alone
in a room trading by yourself. Ye.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
All right, so here we go. We're going to dive
into the discussion. But first I want to make sure
that we see a lot of people here participating in
the chat. David, I mean, tell Bill Kenneth, a niece,
thank you so much for already jumping in there and
starting to participate. Keep your questions coming. We're going to
have lots of questions during this event, probably forty sixty.

(07:06):
We're going to answer questions as they're relevant to the
current topics that we're talking about. I may punt on
some questions and then towards the end when we reach
those topics, weave those into the conversation. If we miss one,
that's our bad. But we're going to go back through
it after the forty five minute mark and go through
a very laser focused Q and A do our best
to get through all of those questions, but keep them coming.

(07:29):
We usually have forty plus sixty plus questions. So it's
a very lively discussion looking forward to this today. So
without any further ado, let's jump into the discussion. So
what is currency trading? What we're going to start out with,
and we're going to break it down in very simple terms.
I like to say that so that my grandmother's knitting

(07:49):
circle can understand. So let's break that jargon down very simply. Andrew,
what is currency trading? How does it work?

Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (08:00):
Patrick, So to break it down real simply, currency trading,
when you trade currencies, you're actually trading what's called a pair.
So you don't just trade one stock or one thing.
You trade something against something else. So, as an example,
the euro US dollar, so it's traded as the euro
US dollar as a currency pair, and when we look
at it, we can either buy or sell.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
That currency pair.

Speaker 4 (08:22):
So if the euro US dollar looks like it's moving up,
effectively we're looking.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
At strength and the euro weakness in the US dollar.

Speaker 4 (08:30):
If it looks like the euro US is falling, that
means we're effectively looking for selling the euro and buying
the US dollar, So.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
They're all traded together as currency pairs.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
There are eight main currencies that we look at and
that would be the euro, US dollar, Swiss frank Canadian dollar,
Australian dollar, New Zealand dollar, Japanese yen and the British pan.
So it makes it really easy because there's mainly just
eight currencies to look at it.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
So you won the Chinese uion's not on that way.

Speaker 4 (09:01):
We do have those as well, but for people that
are wanting to start this is something new, I would
predominantly focus on those main eight currencies.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
They're the most traded.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
The cost of doing the trading is very small in
terms of the spread, The liquidity is fantastic and what
we do when we start looking at technical trading, it.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
Has the highest reliability.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yes, there are like you can trade the Mexican the
Swedish krona, and you know, and lead on to other
currencies and other markets. But I would focus for someone new,
especially on those mainate characies.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
And I'm MENTI is saying, what is four X?

Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yes, so for X is foreign exchange currencies. It's just
short for foreign exchange. It's basically currency trading forests. It's
the same thing.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
We wanted to call it currency trading instead of four
X so it didn't sound so foreign. And so is
the same here Steven Len's hear your thoughts, Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Did, oh, exactly everything, the same thing Andrews said. The
main thing is that the trading is actually simple, because
I've noticed from my experience in trading current sypairs is
that when they run, when they go in a certain direction,
they really go. I mean, these are some of the
best trending markets available, and since we feel that the
best way to become a consistent trader is to be

(10:21):
in sync with the trend, I think there's a real
advantage to trading currency pairs. If you're able to get
to find out through price behavior what the trend is
and get on board, you can really have some nice
gains and.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Really have some nice profits, So this is interesting to me.
I have, so I did some research in advance about
twenty four percent you talk about the pairs, twenty four
percent of the trades are between the Euro and the
US dollar. That's fascinating. And I think it said sixty

(10:56):
sixty six percent are in those nine most common currencies overall,
so the majority of it is in those top top currencies.
So you're really talking about trading between you know, call
it nine or ten different currencies for the majority of it,
and then a quarter of that or the majority of

(11:16):
that is actually the US dollar and the euro.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Is that right?

Speaker 4 (11:20):
That would be exactly right, And that is exactly what
I would focus on for those reasons. Given the quality
of the trade setups, the cost of doing it, you're so.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
Much better just focusing on that.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
And the beauty for US trading is you don't need
to know about like a hundred different companies or anything
like that. It's just eight currencies and what moves them.
And as Steven said, the moves that you can get
are huge.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
The other beauty is you.

Speaker 4 (11:47):
Can buy and sell, so you're not just buying something
and kind of hoping it's moving up you can make
exactly the same return by selling let's say the euro
US dollar and getting a profitable trade when that market fools,
as you can when you fight.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
You just need to be on the right side off
the market, right.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
And what we had talked about before in terms of
keeping it simple, I think you know a lot of
especially beginners, can really get overwhelmed deciding what markets are trade.
The great thing about currency pais, as we've stated, if
you stick with those select numbers, those basic ones, it
keeps it a lot simpler, especially when you're learning how
to do it, so you're not going through five thousand

(12:27):
stocks or tons of crypto that you don't understand what
they are. You're just focusing on the small number. It
makes it a lot easier to get involved.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
So Anie here who follows you, said that primo makes
it simple, all right, like a great educator. So David saying,
share Baby Share, So very excited about that. And we're
hearing a little bit about Mitchum's humble beginnings in the chat.
So you guys have got a great following here, much

(12:58):
more exposed to my audience that I originally understood. This
is great. So let's talk about how active and passive?
Is this because this is actually a passive and alternative
investing mastery strategy session. A lot of the investors are
like myself. They were I was a hard working professional,

(13:18):
successful at what I did. I was good enough to
be able to you what I did, to be able
to make some money, to be able to invest right.
I'm busy on my day to day. So how do
you talk to investors about evaluating the active and passive
methods by which you go about investing in this Why
don't we start with Steven?

Speaker 2 (13:39):
My opinion is I don't think everyone or trader should
be one or the other. In other words, you shouldn't
be totally active and something involved in just you know,
staring at every pip or tick. You shouldn't be totally
passive either. I teach my students that they should be
actually involved in part of the process, because that's how
you're going to really become consistent. I think no two

(14:01):
traders should every trade alike. You know, some traders have
a larger account, some are new, some have been trading
thirty years. Everyone has different risk parameters, so that will
determine how active you are, how passive you are. Another
determination is thinking of what time framet. If you're going
to be intereday trading, you have to be a lot
more actively involved as opposed to someone who's looking at

(14:22):
weekly or monthly bars. And you can pretty much set
your parameters and then sit back and watch. So it
all depends. The first step I believe that traders and
students that might have to make is you have to
determine what type of trader you are. I mean, are
you the type that wants twenty trades a day or
you want one trade every couple of months, And then
you can decide how active or how passive you should be.

(14:43):
But I don't think it should be one hundred percent
one side or the other. That's just my philosophy.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Andrew, you have a take on that, like I can
play a grief mis stave.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
And the beauty of currency trading is we have the
option to look at various time frame charts. And the
way that I believe that we both trade myself and
Stephen is it kind of doesn't matter what currency pair
we're trading and what time frame charts.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
So to talk about like how much time you need?

Speaker 4 (15:16):
I always say to people, once you know what you're doing,
you could quite easily trade in thirty minutes.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
A day probably less.

Speaker 4 (15:21):
But also you know, you could trade on weekly charts
or monthly charts like Stephen said, and just look at
you know, your chants once or twice a week or
a month. It depends what you want to do. But
I still think you need to have some involvement in
what's happening. You can't just sort of put something on
and then forget about it. I still think while you're learning, especially,
you need to understand how the market works, what you're

(15:43):
looking for in terms of price action and candle patterns.
But it certainly isn't something that you get that perception
online that you have to be there at certain times
of the day where you have to sit watching every
pip of movement. Like Steven said, you don't like a
lot of people start like that and they fall into
the wrap of doing that because people think that you
have to trade more to do well. The reality is

(16:06):
trading less is better and just having higher quality trade
set up.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
So so when it comes to passive investing into either
you're just like you you pointed out, you need to
be active, so you don't want to just buy something
and forget about it, right, Like you don't say they're
going to be a long term holder when it comes
to just of four X investment is kind of what
I'm hearing. The other way investors can be passive. And
I'd love to I'd love to dig into this a

(16:32):
little bit because I have a I know somebody who's
you know, I rubbed shoulders with occasionally, and they put
together a four X trading strategy. Uh and when they
I think the Japanese was a Japanese bond inverted and
that it caused a big challenge for their strategy. Their
strategy was a bot and it was the way to
make it passive. They lost some money. They lost some

(16:55):
money for two reasons. One was because it was leveraged in.
Two was because it actually traded negative late into a
kind of a down cycle on the end. And I
guess these algorithmic tradings, the strategies, they kind of account
for like seventy percent of the daily trading volume, and
daily trading volue is like massive, right. And then there's

(17:15):
there's a bunch of them that are using these bots
and some are using AI bots now and I'm actually
you know, but these people are out there AI trading
bitcoin right right now as well. But let's hear your
guys' thoughts on kind of these algemorraic trading methods, these bots,
these ways that people are trying to make these things passive.
Kind of hear your what your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Well, right off the bat, I can tell you I'm
totally against it. And it's only because I mean a
lot of people think I'm old school because I've been
trading so long. But as I stated earlier, you have
to be a part of the process. I think one
of the main reasons why traders fail in any market
currency payer, if you're an investor or whatever, is when
you take yourself out of the game. Now they can

(17:58):
be either having a fund where some and does it
for you, or relying too much on an indicator telling
you whether to buy or sell. But you have to
be a part of the process. And so I've had
a number of students I've educated before that said, well,
why don't you just have you know, algorithmic trading or
just something that's just spits out buys and sells. It
goes against my philosophy where you would not be a

(18:19):
part of the process. So It's just something that I've
learned through the years. And to tell you the truth,
when I left the floor, I was hired to manage
money and also to teach systematic trading a number of firms,
and I taught these systems which were very similar to
what's going on now with AI. But they were all systematic.
You just had to put in the numbers and they

(18:39):
spit out the buy and sells, and they had fantastic
research going back ten twenty years, you know, eighty percent wins.
It was just unbelievable the different markets. And then when
you know two thousand and eight hit, they all crashed.
Everything went down, and what happened to all the research,
what happened to all the great ten twenty years of

(19:00):
tastic numbers, It all goes out the window. So it
was because you know, you have to make adjustments, You
have to be able to go with the ebb and
flow of the market, and that involves what we were
talking about. It tamp be just passive. You have to
be a part of the process.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
So you taught algorithmic trading stary, but you are no
longer a believer in it after the two thousand and
eight because you feel like you actually need to be
there having that human judgment seeing something like in two
thousand and eight and interfering with the algorithms, right, Is
that what I'm hearing exactly?

Speaker 2 (19:33):
I mean the way, the simplest way I can say
is that I'm not even a big football fan, but
I know in football, okay, the quarterback can come up
in a line of scrimmage and have a play already
and everyone knows what the play is. But then he
sees that the defense has shifted. It's different, so he'll
yell out what's called an audible telling the rest of
the team that we're kind of changing and editing things
a bit because the defense has shifted, so the play

(19:55):
won't be able to run the original way. It's no
different when trading, you see that, Wow, you know you
have to be a part of the process because maybe
there's more volatility today, maybe there's no volatility today. Maybe
your risk is larger, maybe it's less, so you'd be
able to change EBB and flow with what the market's
showing you.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
We're addressing some of Bill's questions here about how do
you know you know what know what moves around in
the currencies and also, Michael, is it manual or algorithmic? Right?
I think it's part of that. It sounds like it's
a little bit of a combination between the two. But
you've got to be ready to do the audible. The
engineering me really struggles with this because I as an
automation and robotics engineer and I think things as systems

(20:35):
and processes. But having having that human audibles necessary and
why we don't have robots everywhere on every manufacturing floor
right now, Andrew, let's hear your thoughts.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
Like I couldn't agree more well.

Speaker 4 (20:48):
Stephen said maybe we're both our school but I think
he's absolutely right. And I can tell you from a
lot of personal experience that I've tried every every bit
of AI, every trading robot, every our worth them there
ever was. I bought them and tried to create them,
and they just don't work. I think a lot of
people run into that pitfall of they see something that

(21:09):
was has been back tested, that looks really good in hindsight,
and it goes live and it just doesn't work. I
really cannot stress enough from personal experience how much human
common sense and seeing something and reacting to it will
massively help you not only in your results, but also
in that actual knowledge that you have or being able

(21:32):
to do this for yourself. Whereas even if you had
a system that you got from somebody, how do you
know when that stops working? If you don't have that
knowledge of how the markets work, how do you know
when the markets change and you need to adjust the
parameters and you know, just buying something leaving it to
run with your money, your hard earned money sat there.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
It's a huge gamble.

Speaker 4 (21:54):
And I personally, I love the fact that I have
the knowledge of what to do, when to do it,
or when not to do it.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
That that system usually stops working the minute we start
trading it. That's what it usually stops working.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
And we've all done it.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
So the issue is that people see online and YouTube
and other played TikTok and things that all these you know,
because someone's generally trying to sell something and promise you
it doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
All right, let's let's talk about this. But give me
a give me a hunter or so. So it is
sounds like it's a lot of books smart, or there's
a book smart component to it. Then there's a street
smart component to it, right, and then there's the science
and technique. And then there's the art. Are we talking?
It is the the arts? The audible is it? Is

(22:41):
it fifty percent art or is it ten percent art?

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Right?

Speaker 1 (22:45):
And ninety percent algorithm and science and technique?

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Here?

Speaker 1 (22:49):
What do you guys think?

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Well, for me personally, I put about twenty five to
thirty percent rule based, you know, pattern recognition or just
looking at price, and it's it's rule based, it's not systematic.
And then I would put basically, or I should say
I'm sorry, I'm sorry everyone. I mean seventy percent rule based,
and then thirty percent I leave for intuition, for experience,

(23:13):
for you know, Audible's calling, you know, being part of
the process. So seventy percent rule based, and I'm thirty
percent I leave for you know, making my own process
and decisions.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
I love how you can answer that question, Andrew, what
are your thoughts.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
If I had to go first out of set exactly
the same? It's quite it's quite speaky because it's the
way that I suppose that you know, over years, you
have trial and error and you figure out what works.
And yes, I have when I see a trade setup,
I have rules for my entry and exit levels based
on the way that I trade, but there is certainly

(23:49):
a little bit of discretion in what I look at
on the charts as well. But because it's like anything,
it's like any skill that once you can do it,
you can kind of do it.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
You know, it's like watching a kid ride a bicycle.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
You know, it's very complicated to start with, and then
when you know how to do it, you just jump
on the bicycle and go. And I believe that kind
of art form of trading is very very similar. You
have things you have to do and then you have
other things that you kind of just get over time.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
The art form of trading right, and we actually call it,
we like to say, the Mastery in the art of
Passive Alternative investing here, and so it is, there's an
art to it. So let's take in a little bit more.
How what are the actual ways that people would engage.

(24:39):
I see, you've got to go learn something, you got
to go educate yourself, and then you've got to go practice.
And I get the education right, You've got seventy percent
role based, You got to you got to practice to
get to thirty percent intuition. You know, you got to
be out in the field actually doing this? How have
you pass our investors learn? How long does it take

(25:00):
to actually gain the confidence necessary that you know, you
see it's for them to be successful at this. I mean,
I've seen some numbers out there. They're not they're not
trying to As we were googling around trying to figure
out that says between seventy two and eighty four percent
of online four x traders lose money, right, So I'm
gonna say the same thing.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
I think it's higher.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
And twenty nine percent of retail four X traders achieve
capital games, meaning they actually get a gag, right, So
those are not numbers that I'm typically seeing in real
estate investments. So, so help us understand how do you
educate to beat those numbers, to beat those statistics, to
get over that book knowledge rule intake, and then to

(25:43):
learn the art for your students to be successful.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
What's that process? I'll let you go.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Andrew, Okay, So for me, it's finding a strategy that
suits you as an individual person.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
That's what it comes down to.

Speaker 4 (25:55):
And look, it took me four years of going around
in circles and buying things and beating my head to
get some brick walls because and I'm not a sort
of person that gives up, but I kind of got
very close. And for me personally, I then realized that
the system that I had to trade meant I wasn't
looking at the charts all day, and I had to
actually have some logic behind it. Because when you start

(26:16):
as a new trader, you can get demo accounts, you know,
like free kind of virtual money accounts, And the downside
is that people get inundated with indicators and all these
lines crossing over everywhere and arrows and dots and things,
and they get it looks really cool, but the trouble
is they fail to look at what's actually happening in
the price, and they failed to understand the things that

(26:37):
the big players look at, like support and resistance.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
And you know, and news events and things like that.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
And so for me, it's about someone needs to use
the demo account, treat it like it's real money. The
danger is they're going to start off with like one
hundred thousand demo account and they get fantastic, I'm making
all this money by just guessing what they're doing. And
of course, when you go live, probably unlikely to go
to one hundred grand life account. So I tell people

(27:04):
to start with maybe like a ten thousand demo. Treat
it like it's real. Make the mistakes that you're going
to have with your risk management going wrong and your
lot size is incorrect everybody will do, but treat it
like it's real, and develop a strategy in a system
that you understand that you have confidence in that you
trade professionally on a demo account before you even think

(27:24):
about going life.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Is that a year?

Speaker 4 (27:28):
How big it could be if you're doing it for
yourself with no help. Absolutely? Like I said, I took
four years, and it's very tempting to get to those
stages where you go, oh, this is not working, so
you try to reinvent the wheel again, or you buy
another indicator or a robot. We just talked about it,
and you're kind of very easy to get distracted in
today's worlds online.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
So it's about stripping all that down from if you're
doing it.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
Yourself, if you're doing it yourself from scratch, it's about
picking the best of different things and working at what's
going to suit you as an individual person.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Steven, there's the questions, let's hear approach is a great
answer and great answer, Andrew, How do people get in
there in this in this world where the majority of
people are losing money, they want to get into this
asset cost they they know they need to educate themselves,
not only just on the books and the roles, but
they got to they got to build that intuition. They
got to get that art of it down to make

(28:24):
those audibles. How does somebody just starting out get in
there and how long does it take them before they
could go live and actually start winning.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Well, I believe that that statistic is actually higher. I
believe upwards of eighty five to ninety percent of all
first time traders lose money. And when they say lose,
it means that they actually lose everything, not just to
have a bad month. They give all their little nest
egg away. So I remember myself when I first started
trading on the floor, I had a terrible time. For
the first year and a half, I couldn't make a

(28:54):
dime and I was looking half some mentors who saw
what I was doing, and I remember what they said,
They Steve, You're trading just just far too complicated. You
have too many indicators, You're watching far too many things,
you have too many systems, everything, and then they said,
you know, it's the easiest thing in the world to
overcomplicate your trading, but it's the most difficult thing in
the world to simplify. But once I started to simplify things,

(29:15):
that's when I started to become consistent little by little.
So I think, regardless if you've been trading twenty years,
thirty years, fifty years, or a couple of weeks, you
have to keep it simple. Now having said that, I
think you have to find a good mentor or a
good teacher, and who I think would be perfect. Just
listen to him. He's the type of person I would
want to, you know, go to if I was trying

(29:36):
to learn how trade four x and you want to
take everything from him, but also get your hands on everything, books, periodicals,
And then you have to practice. There isn't any other
profession in the world where you don't have some form
of practice or paper trading. I mean, think of an athlete.
They have a practice, you know, practice before the game,
or even they have these sessions before the actual season starts.

(30:00):
You know, an actor has your rehearsals. It's the same
way with trading. It I liked, I love in fact,
I loved Andrew's idea of instead of using one hundred
thousand dollars demo account, which I know everyone does, I've
done before in the Bath, you start with a five
or ten thousand. That's a great idea. Start with that,
because that's closer to reality what you'll be doing. And
the thing is, I tell my students, when you know,

(30:21):
ask me questions, you know, whatever you want and whenever
you want. And when you finally get to the point
where you stop asking questions, that's when you can start
actually trading with real capital. But keep it as small
as possible. So with some people it's maybe takes a
couple of weeks to get to that point. Other it
may take six, you know, months, or a year. It's

(30:41):
so different for everyone.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
And this is great, and what's the payoff?

Speaker 2 (30:46):
Right?

Speaker 1 (30:46):
The payoff of actually getting good at this is huge, right,
because people are making money and that the industry has
grown four hundred and thirty two percent between two thousand
and twenty nineteen. I mean that's huge right now in
the US alone, And it's one point nine trillion daily
average turnover, so there's a lot of trading going on daily.

(31:08):
And I think somebody threw in the chat here chat
here that there's you know, six trillion per day overall
in four X. I don't know that one, but we're
talking like and then and then I saw some other
numbers that professional four X traders typically achieved monthly returns
ranging in five to fifteen percent. Now do is that?

(31:29):
Is that? Is that what you hear? Because those numbers
been mind blowing and and and and monthly? Which does
that annualized? To be really good at what you can
Once you can get at this, you're a couple of
years in right, you've done this, we've gone through head
a mentor you've got good at it. Answering the questions.
We've got a couple of questions from a niece, Uh,
Robert Michael, what are these returns? What's the payoff? What

(31:51):
was the expectations that people should should think about for
four X trading?

Speaker 4 (31:57):
Well, Patrick, I knew you're probably gonna ask that question,
or somebody was, and you probably can't see in front
of here on my camera, but I've said on here
this is I've written a dan just to make sure
that I quoted this right, and I said, of course,
it depends on your risk how much risk you take
depends on your return. But we are massive advocates of
incredibly low risk for trade. But considering that, we would

(32:22):
like to suggest that you're probably, once you're not what
you're doing, going to make between five and ten percent
return a month on your account. Just last week we
had a three point six percent game. We're going to
do three point sea in the week, but I'm trading
only a quarter of.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
One percent of my account.

Speaker 4 (32:40):
Risk for trades are really really tiny risk, so very
low doordains? Are we going to do three point six
percent every single week?

Speaker 3 (32:46):
No, we're not.

Speaker 4 (32:47):
Some weeks it'll be more, some would be less, of course,
But i'd very confidently say that once you know what
you're doing with very low risk for trade, there's no
reason why you can't make five to ten percent on average.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Problem let me just understand you said, say hypothetical, you
have one hundred grand in your account. You said you're
only trading like maybe three grand of it, and then
of that three grand you got a three percent on
the one year or what was that? And what was
the numbers? Like, you're not trading at all all the time.

Speaker 4 (33:15):
So if you're on a one hundred thousand dollars account
and you're on a zero point two five percent risk
for trade. The most I'm risking two hundred and fifty
dollars on the trade on a one hundred thousand dollar account.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Very very tiny.

Speaker 4 (33:29):
That's just me personally, because I trade on things called
prop firms as well. I said to my clients, I
would never risk more than half of one percent, so
five risk on a thousand dollar account por.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Trade portrade, and that trade is once a week.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
So if so, if a trade goes against me, I
lose half of one percent of my caunt size.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
Okay, got it.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
I have to command you, Andrew, because I usually am
one percent. Wow, that's that's that's amazing, that's.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Great, and you're getting five.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
Low is key?

Speaker 2 (34:06):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
I think keeping your draw downs low is key in
trading currencies because there's two things that like, like probably
with all the people you deal with, Patrick is your
head in your heart, and you have to control because
it's motions and it's money. So I like to say
that people get those two under control. How are you
going to do that?

Speaker 4 (34:24):
Have a strategy that you have confidence in, but also
make sure that your losses are very small.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
When you have gains, they are several times you'll risk.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
So we're answering Kenneth's question here about the returns and
the risks and how that is. So you did say
just that, and your the iudea is a little bit
hard for me to hear sometimes, Andrew. So five to
ten percent, is that right? You said?

Speaker 3 (34:48):
And that was live and ten percent per per on
that per month, So, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
So this is a guy I saw was monthly five
to fifteen and my mind was blown. You're actually saying
you're seeing a seasoned investor. You're getting five to ten
and of course there's a huge bit of vital volatility,
but you're also able to mitigate your downside risk to
a quarter of a percent. And I just heard Steven
say he's doing one percent. Steven, let's hear your take

(35:17):
on what would people. They're out there, they've been doing
this a while. You know, what do you think is
reasonable under your tutelage and your edgue guidance after they've
gotten good at this to be able to achieve in
terms of returns.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
Well, see, my take is a little bit different. I
don't feel that you can quantify it by saying this
is what you can averagely make, what a student can
make after trading for so long or learning. I think
everyone's different. I have some students that have been trading
in students of mine for a couple of years, and
they're makeing phenomenal and the same other students the same

(35:50):
courses are basically breaking even. And then there's others that
are making twenty or thirty percent. Everyone comes in with
different parameters, and there's nothing wrong with that. I really
think what we try to do is traders, we try
to make trading into like a nine to five job,
like Okay, well if I get this, I'll make sixty
grand a month, or if I take this job and
learn this skill, I'll make one hundred thousand. Trading is

(36:11):
not like that. Your trading results are directly proportioned to
how much work you put in, what you're controlling with
your risk, what your account is, and how much you
use that thirty percent of intuitive reaction. So I don't
think you can. You know, I always tell my students,
you know, it's not the type of thing we say,
I'm going to make five hundred dollars a week, and

(36:32):
you know you can't do that. Because what happens if
one week you don't make five hundred, well, then the
next week you have to make a thousand to get
back on track.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
And then if you.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Lose three hundred that week, then you're really in the hole.
Then you really dug yourself lower and mentally psychologically, you
really dug yourself a hole. So I think the best
thing to do, the best thing a trader can do
is once again, practice and learn, and being able to
trade another day is the best result you can get.
That's what you want because so many traders that eighty

(37:01):
ninety five percent level wherever they're gone, they can't come
back anymore. So you just want to be able to
come back again because that will ensure longevity. And in
my opinion, longevity is really success.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
And that's we talk about that a lot. Capital preservation,
right and keeping your risk blow because just the and
what we talk about is, you know, if you if
you invest one hundred dollars and you lose half, right,
you've only got fifty left. It takes one hundred percent
return on that to get to break even, right, But
if you lose all of it, it's an infinite return

(37:38):
required to get back to your hundred. Right, there's it's impossible.
It's asymptotic the more you lose, and so you may
be out of the game. That's what he was talking about.
Lived to go another day, don't risk it all. That
actually brings me back to what I haven't heard you say,
and that's leverage. That one of the things that freaks
me out about four X and bitcoin trading and everything.

(38:01):
The reason why I don't get involved because I'm actually
a lot about low leverage. Two thousand and nine, I
was highly leveraged on a pre development and I lost
my ass when that market took a swing, and it
drugged me through the calls for years. I learned a
lot about leverage. They in four eggs still do sometimes
one hundred to one. That means, you know, you put
one dollar in and now you're trading one hundred dollars?

(38:24):
Is that and and that could I mean, that could
collapse you much more than your principle, right that, I mean,
there's what tell me a little bit about how you
guys think about leverage. And it's just this frightening numbers
to me and why I should be a little more
comfortable with it with four X trading.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Because I'm outside the US.

Speaker 4 (38:47):
You have a lot more restrictions over there with your brokers,
But outside the US you can trade up to four
hundred to one.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
I've always traded at one hundred to one. Personally, it
makes no difference to me.

Speaker 4 (38:58):
I mean, leverage is a double edged so of course
it can be a friend or it can kill you,
depending on if you don't know what you're doing and
it's your if your risk is not sensible. But if
you keep your risk very low, the leverage isn't really
an issue for me, and I've never had a because
I'm only risking a certain percentage portrayed. It doesn't matter

(39:21):
what the trade is, what the direction, what the currency is,
what the time frame, what the size of the stop
loss is.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
To me, that becomes irrelevant.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
I look at patterns and candle patterns, which we could
potentially talk about later.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
So every trade has the same low and known and
equal risk.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:40):
Wow, Because I don't have multiple lots and lots of
trades open, the leverage is never an issue.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Once again, we're on the same leg. I mean, because
we've been training this long, you start to see what
works and what does and what you should put your
attention on and what you shouldn't he's been traded. I
think when you get past the twenty year mark, you
start to see what's of importance and what's not. And
leverage makes up wely no difference to me because I
know I'm only risking one percent of my capital. That's
all I care about. So it doesn't matter if I

(40:10):
have one thousand to one or two to one. If
I'm risking you know, one percent, one hundred dollars or something,
that's it. That's all I'm concerned about. Yeah, And one of.

Speaker 4 (40:19):
The things to answer to the last question, if I
can you talked about, you know, it kind of brings
on from the leverage. You've got to trade when the
market conditions are right, like anything, you know, sometimes they'll
be fantastic conditions and.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
You'll see quite a number of trades.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
You've also got to know when to not use that
leverage and don't kill yourself by doing silly things. If
the market's not showing you the trades, don't trade. There's
nothing wrong with not trading. Sometimes that's the best thing
to do.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
True. Okay, so we're getting to that point where we're
actually at the forty five minute Mark, and we've we've
been I mean, maybe we get we've in about half
the questions here. We've got about thirty questions to do
there in the Q and A, perhaps you can start out.
Let's just do a final question of what's the best
advice that you can give an investor that has no

(41:08):
idea what four X trading is, but they're interested, they're
attracted to it, they want to learn, they want to
get involved. What's the best way to get started in
the game, and how do you make sure that you
would guide them into saying not losing money and making
sure that they're going to be successful in the long run.
Why do we go Andrew and Steve? And then after

(41:29):
that we're going to have you guys tell everybody how
they get a hold of you, reach you, and then
we'll go to the Q and A.

Speaker 4 (41:36):
Okay, so if you're brand new, you've got to make
that decision on whether you want to do this alone
or whether you want to do this as part of
the group.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
That's really what it comes down.

Speaker 4 (41:45):
Do you do you want to spend a lot of
time developing something? Do you want to potentially pay someone
to get something that's kind of proven?

Speaker 3 (41:53):
I think having a community's massive.

Speaker 4 (41:55):
Doing it by yourself, and like Steven said, at the
very beginning, gets incredibly lonely.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
I want to bank's ideas off.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
Try not to get caught up in the whole social
media hype. Try to avoid all the flashy indicators that
the brokers will have on their platforms. Get on a demo.
Make it real, Treat it like it's real money. Treat
it like a business, your ten grand account. Pretend it's
a million dollar, can't you know, Just just treat it

(42:22):
like it's real. Yes, you'll make mistakes, but don't gamble.
If you've got a gambling mentality, and if you're focused
on how much money you're going to make or give
up your job tomorrow or next week, don't do it.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
Learn the system.

Speaker 4 (42:35):
Learn how to trade properly, learn the theory, the strategy,
the method of doing it.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
And if you do that properly, the money will follow later.

Speaker 4 (42:45):
It's just going to take you a bit of time,
but it will follow if you take the time to
do your homework.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
First, great great answer, I would say in the beginning,
there's a lot of source searching you have to do,
especially if you're a beginner, because I can't tell you
how many students I've had that said, you know, I
want to learn how to day trade. I think it's amazing.
And I've heard this guy at a party that said
he makes one hundred thousand a month. He has ten
trades a day and it's sexy and exciting. And then

(43:14):
you go there and I've taught them, Okay, well I'll
teach them some day trading strategies and they can't pull
the trigger, or else they just lose money because they're
not trading according to their persona or else someone would say, well,
I just I'm an investor. I'm very tight with my money.
I just want to invest, and then they find it
incredibly boring and they can't just wait, you know, every
month for one signal. And the first thing you have

(43:35):
to do is find out what type of a trading.
Would you want to be in front of the market
watching it all day long or do you want to
just passively look at it once a week or something.
And then once you do that, like I Andrew said,
get your hands on everything. Look online, but don't over
complicate things. Just keep it simple and pay per trade.
And the easiest thing I can tell students. Right now,

(43:56):
when you're looking at for its markets or I tell
which any market does matter, is to look at a
chart of anything. Look, for example, I'm looking at the
euro dollar right now, a daily chart of the euro
dollar and apply a fifty period moving average to it.
That's all you have to do, a fifty period moving average.
And what we teach our students is when price is
above then that's when you should have a buyer's by us.

(44:16):
When price is below, you'll have a seller's bias.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
It's that simple.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
But that one little step will help you to become
a consistent trader. Now, obviously you have to add some
structure in the form of a strategy or some pattern
or some signal, but just look at any chart you want,
any timeframe, and that little technique will help you. Doesn't
cost anything, and you can do that right now. Like
for instance, right now, the eur dollar is pushing up
against its fifty period moving average, which is suggesting and

(44:40):
may want to go higher. So this is just something
to help you see if you would like to learn
how to trade this way, and it's very simple, doesn't
cost anything. You can do it right now.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Okay, So here's the chance you have two gurus here,
one that's nicknamed the Oracle. Let's have you guys, both
Andrew and then Steven tell the audience how they can
read you. What do you have to offer you think
you both train and coach in this strategy. Do you
have any free giveaways? Make sure you drop your information

(45:13):
in the chat. We now have put up a slide
with your contact information they call the action web address
that you gave us to give out. Makes you screen
capture that, take a picture of it and let drop
into the chat. Andrew and then Steven go ahead.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (45:29):
So I've been coaching for sixteen years Patrick, as we mentioned,
your clients right around the world, and I just really
encourage people if they have any interest, to jump on
the masterclass that I have on there. It's on demand,
so it doesn't matter where you live in the world.
It's only about twenty minutes long. I've got like ebooks
on my side. I've got calculators for risk calculators. But
the first thing will be to jump on that master class,

(45:51):
have a look at it, see what we do. I
share some trades on thereth basics about trading, how we trade,
how we teach, and then it's up to the end
individuals designed if this is something that they want to
Stephen Okay.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
People can contact me at protrader Strategies dot com. You
see there underneath my name, that's my sister's site. Every
week I get free webinars. I also talk about all
the different courses and the different strategies I have. In fact,
if you go there, I'm giving a free webinar tomorrow
at ten am Pacific time, and I'll talk about a

(46:28):
strategy one of the first strategies I learned from my
mentors that I continue to use to this day. And
I'll give you a couple of the entry rules to
that tomorrow and you can see it doesn't cost anything.
And just go to our website and sign up there
and you can find out more about us. And once again,
I've been trading for forty eight years, if you can
believe it, and I've seen and traded just about everything
imaginable under the sun, and so I know what works

(46:50):
in terms of consistency, and I know what doesn't. So
that's really all we teach ways in which to become
a consistent trader. We're not promising the world, We're not
saying you're going to retire and in six months, but we'll
try to make you consistent or help you at least,
you know, get started in the right direction. My teaching
is extremely simple, it's not complicated. In fact, we make
it that way on purpose. Just to whether you've been training,

(47:13):
you know, fifty years or a couple of weeks, it
makes absolutely no difference. So lots of great information. And
as I said, we have a free webinar tomorrow. I'd
love to see you there in the class.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Andrew Stephen, thank you so much. So we're gonna before
we jump into the Q and A. If you don't
know who I am, it's Patrick Grimes with Passive Investing Mastery.
We not only put on education, but we also have investments.
We have an income fund, which is we have an
income fund which provides steady, eddy cash flow, predictable cash

(47:43):
flow through notes fixed income notes. We have ninety day,
six month and one year notes, seven, eight and a
half and ten percent in a diversified loan pool. It's
a pool of loans to commercial real estate. We also
have Class A Class B shares. Those give much higher
cash flows than varying right along with the profitability of
the fund in the thirteen fourteen percent since inception, so

(48:04):
really strong cash flow, opportunistic with high interest rates at
a time when the banks are pulling back, we're able
to get great loans on performing assets and profit from
that now if the operator needs there wants out. We
also have an acquisitions fund that's taking advantage of the
best commercial real estate buying opportunity of our lives. In

(48:25):
commercial real estate acquisitions, it's a great opportunity to just
pounce right now. And like, literally I lost everything in
twenty nine and ten and I wasn't able to win
from that, But right now we are winning extraordinarily so
from this downturn and commercial real estate, so jump on that.
We also do non correlated investments outside of real estate.

(48:45):
We've done energy before and now we're doing litigation finance
litigation funding, which is the process of profiting from blending
to attorneys who are working under contingency and we get
returns derived from the settlements inviting access to justice, just
like our debt fund provides access to housing for tenants.

(49:05):
And so we do completely non correlated legal industry, unrelated
to four x real estate, the stock market, completely uncorrelated
to all those really strong, steady state growth of the
legal industry. We get to profit from those investments in
litigation funding portfolio, So really excited about those. I also
have a book. If you guys want it and giveaway books,

(49:28):
we have a it's an Amazon number one best seller,
Lessons from Thought Leaders. We've got some amazing people Navy Seals,
Phil CON's lead guitarist and def Leppard, actual rock star, NFL,
NBA players, investors, entrepreneurs in there. I tell my whole
story if I lost it, all that rise and ebbs
and flows through my high tech career, how I built
my single family, struggled, chaded it up to the larger

(49:51):
multi diversified, and then founded Passive Investing master It's a
really cool story. Hopefully it inspires you along your journey.
I give it away. You can download the book and
or you can get a hard copy. I sign it
and we send it out. So I hope that that
is a giveback that we that we do to try
and inspire people along into their alternative investing journey. Just

(50:11):
scan that barcode or go to our website Passive Investingmastery
dot com slash book and make sure you put the
name of this series in the note because we get
a lot of random form fills, and unless I know
where you came from, I'm I'm not gonna sign and
send it out. So we should put something in there
and we'll get that to you before we get to
the Q and A. The very next event is on

(50:33):
venture capital for passive investors, syndications strategies that work. Two
really great colleague friends Experience guys that I've known and
liked for some time trade Taylor Family Office as well
as Isaac Bennett works for a venture capital firm and
we've invested in heavy and real estate together. But these
guys are also out diversifying into venture capital. We're gonna

(50:54):
learn a lot about that. It's gonna be educational for
me and you. But let's dive into the Q and A.
We need to be laser about this because, as typically happens,
we get way too many questions. I think we have
some fifty questions. I think I was able to layer
in about half of them. But what I'm going to
do is I'm gonna go to the top. And I
asked that the Stephen and Andrew if we could try

(51:18):
and just be, you know, pretty laser with these and
try and get try and get through them, so we
don't miss miss the chance to get all these questions
answered as we go, a lot of great shout outs
to people that have been following these two individuals, a
lot of really encouraging comments made about what was said.

(51:39):
A lot of other traders on here just giving the
thumbs up. Amatal a niece, it says a comment from
Anissa's currency training is often referred in futures markets, if
I'm not wrong, forx is referred to spot markets, but
it's essentially forks exchange, one currency pitted up against another.

(52:00):
Let's hear your thoughts on that.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
I personally once again kind of going back to that leverage.
So what I mean, all I'm looking at is price movement.
I really am not concerned about, you know, a title
or what is based on. I'm really just looking at
price and patterns and specific things in a strategy.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Yep, go ahead, Andrew.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
So absolutely you're looking at the spot market.

Speaker 4 (52:27):
What the price is right now, Is there an opportunity
to buy that pair, sell that pair? And you could
use something like Steven said, without fifty EMA, you could
use things like strength and weakness. You could look at
a monthly chart, and that's moving up. So you can
look at a daily chart and only look by traits.
There's also of things you can do, but essentially we're
looking at the price. Is there an opportunity here and
we'll move to the next chart.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
And so with all the rise and fall of these
and it feels a lot like sock market trading to be.
And so Kenneth asked a question a while back, how
does currency trading compared to investing in the stock market
and in bonds. Maybe you guys can address that a
little bit.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
I would think the only difference would be how much
you're risking. And remember you're in charge of your risk,
so that would be the only difference. If there's a
lot of volatility, let's say in the stock market, but
there's no volatility in the pair that you're looking at, well,
then that would be a difference because you're probably less
risk with the pair. But to me, the only difference

(53:28):
is since I'm looking at patterns and you know different
ways in which to view the trend, it's really all
about risk.

Speaker 4 (53:40):
I've never traded the stock market, so a little bit
hard for me to answer that one.

Speaker 3 (53:43):
And what I would say is regardless of where you
live in the world.

Speaker 4 (53:46):
The forest markets are twenty four hour day markets, so
it makes it a lot easier. Don't get big gaps
and spikes like you potentially could in stocks you can buy,
you can sell. Don't need to know a lot about
different markets. You can just look at the currencies that
were mentioned. You potentially, depending on your strategy, can now
look at cryptos and in disease, metals, commodities. But it's yeah, yeah,
it offers so many options. Once you know how to trade,

(54:07):
you can try it well.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
The fact that you could limit your risk is certainly
appealing over the stock market, right because in this particular
case you're literally dying in your downside protection. Very interesting,
So it sounds like a lot of work, Donald said,
and we talked about like in the beginning you've got
to learn. You had to put in some time to
learn the craft, right, but after a while you'll you'll

(54:32):
be able to do this like a wizard. And the
upside's big once you get good on it. People tend
to once you get over the statistics and over the hump,
get properly trained, people do tend to make pretty strong returns.
See that we already addressed how do you mitigate risk?
And how we talked about indicators for currencies Michael and Bill.

(54:53):
We talked about algorithms versus manually. Michael, I think I
wove all that in there, and there's questions in here
about man I probably I'm nearing retirement, Gaines says, And
I'm not really sure he wants to manage these investments,
possibly do the learning curve. Are there other fund managers
I can invest with that will do this for me?

Speaker 2 (55:15):
I'm sure there are. I don't know of any, I mean,
because I'm not you know, I'm more of an educator.
I'm going to involved in the fund side. But perhaps
Andrew knows more about that than I do.

Speaker 4 (55:25):
I would say exactly saying what there an't there? You
could look at copier services, you could do all sorts
of things like sort of follow what other people do.
Depends I think if you want to do this for
yourself or not. Yes, you could invest with other people,
But I think the issue then comes down to if
you want one hundred percent passive, great, If you want.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
To learn a little bit, then you probably want to
learn how to do it yourself.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yeah, And there's another one here about is there a
list somewhere where I can go from Robert and find
good or safe brokers to start trading with.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
I would pick rather than safe. I would pick with
someone where you know they allow you to do it yourself,
where you don't want to pay for someone's advice. Since
you know, educators like Andrew and myself are teaching you
what to do, you don't there's no need to pay
for a broker to tell you what to do. So
in the beginning, especially, try and keep your commissions or

(56:21):
a brokerage commission, if there are any. Sometimes they're very minimal,
as small as possible because that also comes in plays
into the risk, you know, and a lot of times
I include my commission costs. That's part of my one percent,
So you know, though it's very minimal, that's all included.
So it's just another expense that you want to keep
down as much as possible.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
Yeah, there's like heaps of good brokers.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
The question specifically, you know what brokers are, then then
I've got a list of brokers I personally used for
years myself. I'd recommend I would say that, you know,
having a lot of clients in the US and staff
member in the US that you are a little bit
more limited to in the US with which farts broke
as you can, you can select.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
I can certainly give you a list of two or three.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
Reach out if you want to hear that, right, Andrew
and Stephen perhaps can get you going on that that
there's a comment here from David about Stephen being on
a cruise ship with that water level rising and falling
as he's talking.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
Well, the way it's raining over here in Los Angeles
right now, I may be on a cruise ship pretty soon.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
I hope your neighbor's not chipping away at an arc
right now. So let's see, we've covered a lot of these.
The market can be a beast at times, that's true, right,
comment related to it investing in the right times. We
talked Bill, We talked about algorithms, black swan events a

(57:49):
little bit, and we talk about the two thousand and
eight and how the algorithms didn't work out so well,
and audibles. I think we covered that. If we didn't,
please place additional questions below. Kenneth asked about how inflation
and interest raise impact foreign currencies. What are you going
to and I will add to that how do you
see shifts in this new administration affecting foreigns, currencies.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Andrew.

Speaker 4 (58:12):
For me, it doesn't really matter any political event and
anything like that, because any news event doesn't matter because
I only trading what I'm seeing on the charts.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
So I can have.

Speaker 4 (58:23):
Personal thoughts of what's happening in different currencies, different countries,
interest rates, employment figures, all that. But I still look
at what's happening on the chart. And why do I
do that is because that's what's really happening.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
In the market.

Speaker 4 (58:35):
The danger is you could see like your monthly non
farm employment change figure, and you could go, Okay, we're
expecting bigger figure, two hundred thousand jobs, and it comes
as two fifty. We could go, wow, it's fantastic. It's
better than we thought. But last month may have been
dropped down. So news trading to me is always tricky.
Fundamental trading is tricky. Look at the charts, they tell

(58:58):
you what's really happening.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Yeah, I stopped looking at news over four decades ago,
and I'm living proof that you really don't need it.
I mean, I'm not telling you that to not look
at it if you feel you need that, but there's
really no need if you know what you're doing. You know,
I'm not getting back to stocks take away from current spares.
But a perfect example is that if you looked with

(59:21):
that fifty period moving average back in two thousand and eight,
a weekly chart of the SMP price was below the
fifty period moving average for consecutive days. This was in
two thousand and seven, So just looking at that, that
information alone would have told you there's negativity in the
market prior to all the fundamental news that came out
later on. So the price really tells you many times

(59:42):
in advance. Just to keep it simple, So sure, if
you want to look at news, I personally haven't looked
at any news in over almost five decades.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
So there's a couple of questions in here well. David
Maiding comments that after fifteen years of trading, one thing,
one thing I have learned is the most is what
not to do. So so there's other questions, and I
think we've most of mostly answered about the expertise needed
Michael to be successful. I think I drilled in I

(01:00:12):
actually asked that question because of yours. I think we
talked about the time and the effort required to be successful.
How much people are losing that aren't successful large eighty
percent people not not actually making money when they start out.
Really important that you do it the right way, educate yourself.
And then there's comments in here about it being semi passive. Right, well,

(01:00:33):
once you once you learn and you're on board with it,
you're not working night and day right at it. But
there can be some semi passive sort of approaches to
it even as an active Would you agree to that?

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:00:46):
Absolutely, I mean, as Steven said in the beginning, you
could trade once a month, once a week, once a day.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
It's up to you.

Speaker 4 (01:00:53):
I personally trade no more than thirty minutes as a
full time trade or chart time okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Time, thirty minutes a day. That's your full time.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
Time, fifteen minutes at your five pm New York time
and fifteen minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
I think Andrew was the kindred soul here. I think
because we're right along the same wave, like exact same
way I feel about it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
You're gonna write a note to get some people that disagree.
So what are the factors to I guess to evaluating? Sorry,
actually this is a better way learn what so, Pips,
why didn't you talk about what pips are and the
other one that I wanted to look at, I'll find

(01:01:41):
a mention. But this when did you start out with
what pips are?

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Okay, So a pip is a price index point, I
think it's officially called. So one cent of movement has
one hundred pips. So it's one hundredth of one scent movement.
Now you don't need a very big movement in the
forest market to have you know, a lot of game
or lost if you get it wrong.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
So it's one hundredth of percent.

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
The issue is that a lot of people count their
success in pips. If you have a look online, everybody goes,
I made one hundred pips on the trade.

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
To me, that's irrelevant.

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
I as mentioned risk, let's say half of one percent.
If I have a three to one reward to risk trade,
it means I'm risking one part half of one percent
to make three parts one and a half percent. So
for me, regardless of the trade, regardless of it, stop
loss in size, it's time frame, how long it's in
the market. For have your low control risk, high reward

(01:02:33):
to risk trades and forget pips.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Yes, the way I define pips, it's just a unit
of measurement. That's all it is. And every market, treatable
market has a unit of measurement. Stocks have one cent,
futures have different units of measurement, and pips are just
a unit of measurement in currency pairs.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
In a couple of questions, I think we've already answered Ferdinand.
We talked about leverage. I wove that one in there.
We talked about comparison and contrasting this versus other investments,
other passive investments. Donald, so there's any further questions, go
ahead and drop it in. Nissa is saying, thank you
so much. High risk is a killer and suicidal, especially

(01:03:17):
in forrex A. Nissa is saying, and I think we
all agree with that. Let's see where's so, how did
COVID impact the strategy?

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Oh well, I can just speak uh COVID. If you
remember at the beginning of COVID, when it went straight down, uh,
the market, we had some of the best gains ever
because you know, our strategies generate buy and sell signals,
so all we're looking for is just a real strong movement.
And the movement was down and then when the markets
started to go back up and even with currency pairents.

(01:03:54):
You know, when you have the volatility, I think it
really doesn't matter. What you're looking for is really trending
volatility regardless of what market. Uh, what you really don't
want is that kind of when the pond just dries
up and there's no movement at all. That's where you
get that whip saw and uh, that can happen in
any time. You don't need COVID or anything that can
happen in the summer months. So what you what you're

(01:04:17):
really looking for is a really strong trending market regardless
of what it is, and then you just jump on board.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
So let's talk about correlation to stocks. As we talk
about a lot of non correlation, meaning things that don't
rise and fall with the majority of passive investors have
and then their r A four oh one K or
the stock portfolio. Do you see four x investment returns
correlate somewhat to the stock market?

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
I push, yeah, I personally don't know, and I don't
look at that either. Once again, I hate to be
you you know, broken record, but no, it's it's of
no interest to me. I'm just I teach my students
to focus on the one market you're trading. That's all
I mean, because you don't. As my mentor's taught me
is says said Steve, you're overcompliment Katie. Things You're looking
at too many different indicators and markets all at one time.

(01:05:06):
Just focus on a few things. And so I think
when you start to do that, look at court different
correlations and everything, you start to get go down that
path a slippery slope of when you're making things a
little bit too complicated. I know I think differently from
other educators, but that's what I just like to focus on.
In fact, I only look at one market at a time.
So if I'm trading current spirits, when I'm treading futures stocks,

(01:05:28):
that's all I'm looking at.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
So Donald, the thing he's retired and looking for fixed income.
Is there a way to use four x to get
fixed retirement income?

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Go ahead and.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
Picture tirement income and you don't. Does he want to
do this for himself?

Speaker 4 (01:05:46):
It sounds like it if you want to do it
from self and fantastic, put a bit of time in
to learn how to do it properly, and you'll definitely
do very well over time. It just depends if he
is a suppose he's retired. He's got that time to
put into the education. The learning fantastic. You're never going
to get a straight, like perfect line. That's the thing,

(01:06:07):
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
Market conditions change all the time.

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
When we said that five percent per month, some months,
you'll probably losing months. You know, it just happened some
months in. There's never a straight line in any equity cure.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Sounds like the answer is no, you can't get You
can get some income though, possibly. So what are the
tax applications of gains and losses and four x three
tax implications?

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
How are they taxed gains and losses?

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
I'm not on accountent, and I would imagine every country
would be very different.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
I can tell you what.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Once again, I'm sorry, I'm sound like a broken record.
It doesn't it doesn't matter to me. I don't even
look at that. I just look at you know, if
I'm profitable or not. That's a price of doing business.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Yeah, okay, and trading.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Excuse, most of my trading is gay trading, so it's
you know, I know, not everyone day trades.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
Let's see. It sounds like Brad's talking about an opportunity
for compounding gains as your reinvestment, David, takes a lot
of discipline and persistence. Can I do it with retirement accounts?

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
I would. I would think, of course self directed retirement
account and we have we can help you out with that, James,
if you're looking to get something allocated into self directed.
We've talked a little bit about correlation geopolitical events. You
guys don't even watch the news anymore, so I might
I think we answered that question, what role do central

(01:07:41):
banks play?

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
You're going to get the same answer. Yeah, this is
more along the side of the fundamentals, and you know,
it's just it's just you know, traders.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
And I don't involve all that your indicators. Yeah, okay, uh,
And I mean I just did look up the tax
implications and it looks like it can be handled various
different ways of pitting up on what you're doing. So
I probably need to talk to your CPA about that.
There's no easy answer to that one, so we need it.

(01:08:21):
I'm going to go through these, I mean, there's some
really there's some people really hanging in here to the
very end. How does a currency trading fit into a
passive investors broader asset allocation strategy. So what part of
my portfolio should be allocated into this? And so what
would you guys say? So if somebody comes along and
they're like, hey, I have five million dollars, I'm not

(01:08:42):
really sure how much I should, you know, start playing
in the sandbox of four x with and so maybe
I start small, but eventually what allocation do you think
is responsible or the right choice in this? What do
you guys? What do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
And the top of my head, I would say twenty
five percent, just just right up the top of my
head of my account whatever I have.

Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
You know, I would I'm going to have a different
answer to Steven for the first time, and that to me,
it doesn't really matter how much you have, because it
depends if you want to put how much of your
own money into it as well.

Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
Learn how to do it properly first.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
But with these things called prop firms around, if you
can try properly, you can use someone else's money and
make a percentage gain on that as well.

Speaker 3 (01:09:30):
So you don't even have to any money if your
own into it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Interesting, Yeah, So in our world we like to show
the allocations of the wealthy and lily. If you look
at any of our webinars will show the wolf well
from a middle income, high income, ultra wealthy where they
have allocations of you know, ten twenty thirty plus percent,

(01:09:53):
real estate twenty some percent and other alts and the
rest in bonds and stocks, and so you really need
to look at allocations in those kind of pie charts,
and you set up a call, you know, really about
pie charting your allocations and understanding what do you think
of the allocations are what risk do you see in
each of those allocations and do you see those rising

(01:10:15):
and falling? Do you feel like you're well indexed into
non correlated investments? But typically our belief is you need
to be lots of different investments and foundations and lots
of different market fundamentals, So we would never see something
like twenty five. We say, no more than five to
ten percent, and anyone strategy and hopefully within that strategy
you're diversifying into different kinds of investments within there, again,

(01:10:41):
it's about capital preservation and diversification, and that's my belief.
And again we're none of us, I don't think are
financial advisors, CPAs or attorneys. So this is not finance,
tax or legal advice. But that's typically my answer. Lily
set up a call, happy to chat more about, you know,
my own personal strategies. Gary asked if I have to

(01:11:03):
be a credited investor to invest in o'patrick's funds, and
that's true. Yes, you do need to be an accredited
investor two hundred thousand in income, three hundred thousand of conviders,
their spouse, or a million dollars in networth done including
your personal residence in order to invest in the past
Investing Master affiliate funds. And we just have a few more.

(01:11:25):
Michael's asking again, is there a way to do it
truly passively? And it sounds like that recommendation is no.
You really need to participate to some level from these
from the gentleman here, Michael. And then let's see just
put my name is Session please Currency Tree. Okay, so
Session again, some great a scaps that star We're crazy.

(01:11:48):
I think we pretty much got these questions handled or
towards the end, this should be treated as a business.
You should be treated as a business if you're serious
about it. And although he was saying like the full
time trader, these guys are like in thirty minutes a day,

(01:12:09):
you do you treat it very seriously like a business.
I'd probably agree with that, and I think that gets
us to the end of this. If we missed your question,
maybe the last question and do your research on prop
firms if you want to get the if you want
to go that route. Okay, so that's just a comment,
but I think we got it all. Steven, wish we

(01:12:30):
could have seen you, but I understand nice time. There
are days when I would like to turn off my
video all days. I'm sure the audience I've seen enough
in my face. I probably wish I did the same.
So hopefully we didn't get anybody see sick with your
rolling thing going up and done, but really great to
have you Steven Andrew. Amazing job. This was an incredible panel,

(01:12:55):
really rock stars, really strong in these asset classes. Couldn't
be happy with your guys's answers to participation. Everybody here,
don't forget one week from today we're going to talk
about venture capital for passive investors, syndication strategies that work.
I have two really solid guys that are going to

(01:13:16):
come in talk big, big advice for people are actually
doing this and do it successfully, and so really excited
about that. One week from today, Andrew, Steven, if you
want to say your goodbyes, we're going to wrap it
up now.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
I just want to say thank you for inviting me,
and I just want to say there was a pleasure
meeting you both, Patrick and Andrew, and I'd love to
work with both of you again.

Speaker 4 (01:13:37):
It was great and likewise, thank you so much for
inviting me. Nice to have someone from outside the state
stifferent part of the world.

Speaker 3 (01:13:45):
And Steven, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:13:46):
Look, it sounds like that we do very very similar
things and I think the same, which I suppose, like
you said, over time you get to work out what
works and what doesn't. So yeah, thank you for being here,
Thanks for participating with me.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
Really enjoyed it. And thank you Patrick and all your team.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
All Right, the replay will be on a couple of days.
We'll make sure to pass it to Andrew and Steven,
and we'll look forward to seeing everybody else one week
from today. Right here to learn about venture capital. You
guys all have a good evening.

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