August 5, 2025 • 22 mins
Nicki and Mervyn discuss the tools of art and what they mean in the journey to becoming an artist.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Nicky McCoy and I'm an illustrator, fashion designer
and traditional artist.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Mervin McCoy, illustrator, storyteller and digital artists.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
For more than a decade, we've traveled in the convention
scene from coast to coast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We'd love to share what we've learned and are still
learning on our journey.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You're listening to paper podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You hear that music she stole it off the internet,
just kidding. It's spicy beats b E E T S
and he hates beats. Let's check you out that SoundCloud
(00:45):
to have a big question. Okay, shoot, what makes the artist?
You know? I have you know colleagues out there that
you know positive you know they're just trying to help,
but they'll suggest like this new s thing. You know,
there's whether it's a computer or you know, a program
(01:08):
or whatever, and it's like or this kind of marker
or this pen or you know, this kind of paper,
but and very important things cool help to enhance things.
But I know people that swear by these things like
it's whatever. And do you really think the tools make
the artists? Or am I crazy? Or is it something else? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
No, Well I guess I'll appoint to the elephant in
the room as somebody that regularly uses crayons to color
her work in Yeah, I would definitely say that, you know,
I think that it's fantastic that we've made a lot
(01:54):
of technological advancements and even as far as like tools go,
in terms of like pens and stuff like that, I
will arguably say that, yes, there is a noticeable there
can be a noticeable difference between you know, qualities of.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Like lead.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Pen type, Uh, you know, paint quality, et cetera, et cetera,
in terms of like the pigment use and everything. But
at the end of the day, uh, And I mean
I think this is also too because we've seen a
lot of artists work on a regular basis. The materials
definitely do not make the artist.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So and that's an interesting point, right, And maybe I'm
debating against myself here by even saying this, but I'm
not going to play Devil's advocate to the point I
just make. So would you say that it does help
with refinement? Like and maybe that depends on intent? What
(02:56):
is the intent of your work? Just how slick you
want it to look? Just what point is for example,
if I you mentioned leads, right, If I want to
get like some very smooth, you know, you know, graphite lines, right,
I want things to look more like soft, I'm going
(03:17):
to use a soft lid, right right, you know, I
want things to you know, to to smudge and whatnot
and use a soft And if I want like very
strong defined lines, I'm gonna use a harder lid. So
if I'm trying to achieve like a very uh you know,
like very realistic tone, and I want I want the values,
(03:39):
the gray values to blend. If I'm doing a black
and white pencil drawing, I'm just using a rough example,
why would I then use uh, you know, an eight
inch you know what I mean? No, you know that's
a tool.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Right there, right, I mean, well, I guess there would
be like a variety of factors, right, I guess arguably,
like the most obvious one would probably be cost. Yeah,
you know with some of like the the you know,
premiere art materials. Uh, they can get pretty pricey, you know,
depending on what it is. I know, especially for paints
(04:15):
and stuff too, like I know that you know, oil
oil paints or even like water colors can cost a
pretty penny and then you can't even just like buy
one per se, you probably have to buy multiples in
order to uh, you know, mix the colors in the
first place.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
So is that you saying that that big okay, that
barrier or that situation with those colors, right, are you saying.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Like, are you relating that to the skill in using it?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Like?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
What what what? What's what's the Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Not necessarily the skill, But I would say, like, maybe
it's just a barrier to entry. So it maybe it's
like it's not that it's there's certain like art applies
that like some artists might not necessarily have access to
depending on their skull level.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Okay, so oh okay, regardless of their skull level, I'm sorry. Yeah, okay, gotcha, gotcha.
So well, okay, that's I see that point. But well,
I will go back to the general idea though, where
I don't necessarily I don't necessarily think like, yes, not
(05:27):
having those watercolors and not having a B pencil instead
of an H means that you can't achieve the goal.
It might make it harder and it might get make
it more challenging, But I feel like a big part
of being an artist is the challenge is getting over
that hump. I'm not saying you should make things difficult
for yourself unnecessarily, but wouldn't you say sometimes it's it's
(05:52):
that that hump that kind of pushes you toward finding
new techniques, developing new ways to do things. Maybe, you know,
I mean maybe even the listeners, those that aren't artists
or maybe someone those that are, would would say sometimes
just the diversion that not having the right tool gives
(06:13):
you allows you to find new things or do new things.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, definitely, I think that, especially like if you're a
multimedia artist as well, you'll find substitutions like maybe instead
of paint for example, you know, you might use a
white outpen or like, just like substitutions like that I
think are possible.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, because I guess ultimately, you know, the philosophy of
what we're trying to say is comfort sometimes well not
sometimes comfort breeds complacency, and complacency can come from sticking
with just one way of doing things, which might be
relying too much on certain types of tools. That's not
(07:00):
trying to you know, say, oh, people shouldn't have their
disciplines or things they focus on. But like, at this
purest form. Why you create and what kind of stuff
you create is related to that.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
There's that guy that he makes sculptures with a chain saw.
Oh yeah, yeah. So it's like, oh, I might sitting
telling this, dude, you need to stop doing that. You
need to rely on like chisels, or or just do
this in a more normal way, dude, like stop using chains. No,
that's not what I'm saying. Actually, that guy probably figured
(07:36):
out he could use a chain saw by not using
the traditional tools that he was expected to use. So
he got to that point by probably experimenting. I don't
know his story, but I'm gonna maybe bed he probably
didn't just take up a chance on and say, hey,
you know what, let's make sculptures. Yeah. They I mean,
necessity is the mother of invention.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So I think that like, for example, there are artists
that use that will use found objects for example in
their work, whether it's like for sculpture or kind of
like a like a two D sort of like assemblage.
And I think that those pieces are really interesting because
it's it's their particular eye that ends up making the
(08:20):
piece in the end, because otherwise, you know, a bunch
of other people would look at the same objects and
like never be able to recreate those pieces that they make.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
That's true. It's a very complicated topic because it's not
there's no one way about it. I do think the
idea that the tools make the artists it's well and
not to be so dramatic, but then if the tools
make you what you are, then you're probably not much
of an artist. I think it's how you use the tool.
You're an application of the tool. Going back to mister chansaw,
(08:51):
which I'm sorry I don't remember the gentleman's name. Maybe
there's there's probably a ton of people that do it,
but the gentleman in particular, I don't remember his name.
But in his case, the chainsaw is not what makes
him an artist. It's his use of the It's the
fact that you can use the chance. I guarantee if
you gave him something else, he'd be able to make
masterpieces with it. And that's kind of the point. Versatility
(09:14):
is super important in in the art realm, and it
you know, yes, we're very we're being very renirwing it
down to to uh, you know, sculpting and you know,
drawing and whatnot. But that's what you mean art in general,
like as you know, art as a as an idea,
art as a practice. Uh, that's kind of what we're
(09:36):
talking to. So, whether it's decorating kicks and then you
know those people that use fonded and make all sorts
of cool stuff, or even just changing up your you know,
your your your way of you know, building a kick
or whatever it's. You know, I still think that that
requires some ability to kind of be flexible and experiment.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Arguably even more so because instead of like, for example,
like a cake decorator, like instead of just having the
ability to like sculpt with like clay or something, they
also have to take into account like the fondon and
like materials itself, like in terms of like temperature and baking.
And I like, I know that that's the whole thing,
because otherwise, like it would just melt or you know,
(10:21):
not be able to adhere properly.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
But like those cooking shows or the British Bakeoff, isn't
that like a big part of it where it's like, oh,
my thing, I can't do the thing because I need
this thing, So I'm gonna have to use this thing
to do this thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, So like that, So what you're saying, is like
the improvisation as well, like also creates.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Or is also reflective of the artists. There's creativity in
the struggle. Yeah, if that's fair. It's I'm not saying
I want people to struggle or not have the thing,
but it's it's it's interesting when people marry themselves to
a tool where the tool becomes their artistic personality. And
like I said, this is not me saying you shouldn't
(11:02):
use an iPad or whatever. That's not the point. What
I'm saying is, you know, and this goes back to
a previous episode. Uh, this is where the traditional definitely
does help and it does add some versatility to an artist,
where it does give you other things to kind of
(11:23):
work with, other other tools to fall back on. I
know a lot of a lot of people know, yeah,
all they have is digital experience. They will not draw
on paper. I've met enough younger people that will not
or don't have any experience, and you know, it terrifies
them because of the mistake aspect, right, And that's a
(11:46):
you know, not not having failure in art is very dangerous.
Like failure is probably the most important tool of art.
I'll tell you this much because maybe I've said it
on the show before, I don't remember. But you know what,
any artist's style is just a you know, mistakes that
everybody accepts. Yeah, and I think that's a very big
(12:11):
part of you know, this game. It's it's understanding seeing
the mystics actually allows you to understand you have limitations,
and knowing those limitations exist kind of give you a
bar to kind of jump over, you know what I mean,
It gives you a goal. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I mean like, yeah, well, I mean like back to
the style as well, Like essentially, an artist's style is
just an accumulation of, like I guess, like those triumphs
and failures.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, I would agree. So it's and it's a tricky
one like okay for you, what is a tool you
think you rely on too much?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I mean I don't, I don't, Well, like are you
sharpie a lot? And I mean I guess once again,
this goes back to the does the tool make the artist?
Because I'm sure that there are other equally like thick,
thicker uh at artist pens that I could use other
(13:17):
than a sharpie. There are well, and and I have
to embarrassingly admit that I just haven't really explored them
in that way. I'm I'm so used to the sharpie.
It's it's affordable, it's versatile, there's like a lot of
pros for it for me. Uh, and I just haven't
really branched out as a result.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Okay, so, but what's stopping you? Like, I mean, I've
seen your experiment with different pens and whatnot. No, not
just what what is like? Is it what would make
what would change your mind?
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I guess if I found like a superior product that
was affordable and accessible. I mean it sounds goofy, but
I'm really old fashioned and I like going into the
store and like trying things out in person. I'm very
tactle when it comes to my purchases, so I would
definitely want to be able to like try out something beforehand.
(14:16):
But I mean, really, there's nothing stopping me from like
going to an art supply store and like finding something
that could be the equivalent of a sharp ee.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
That's fair, you know, I hear that. Uh, It's interesting
because when it comes to that stuff, like with the
pens and whatnot, I you know, I'm I'm not necessarily
a ner a boat. I'll experiment I've experimented with a few,
you know, I have the ones I kind of like
using now. They're the tombo the food on a suke,
(14:48):
tombo pens. I usually use those, the heart and the
hard tip hard brush stip and the soft brush tip.
But I usually work with the hard brush tip just
so it gives me more control and I don't have
to think to my about it. But in terms of
overall lions like a tool that maybe I lean too
much on, and maybe I think relying on working between mediums,
(15:10):
like we're working between traditional and digital. There's a time
when I would just focus more, like I just do
my traditional stuff and it would just be traditional from
beginning to end. But no, I find myself doing traditional
stuff and then I'll tweak stuff in digital for whatever reasons.
(15:31):
I'm like, mm am, I do that. I know I'm
not being sloppy, but in the back of my head,
I'm like, but are you then leaving stuff off the
table in your traditional journey? Are you not experimenting as
much as you should or could you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Like, so you feel like you're missing out on something,
like you could be like pushing yourself more in the
traditional medium if you just focused on.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
That, yes, and experimenting, and it's like, oh, I would
have probably more pants, have these cool watercolor pens that
I've wanted to experiment with. But I'm like, but it
takes time. And obviously were I younger, sure and had
more free time. Yeah, but nobody has that. Everybody says that, right, yes,
I would. I would probably be messing up the place
(16:17):
with you know, watercolor experiments and this and that. And
I have this, the guash set, that wash set that
I bought that's supposed to be Miyazaki. Yeah, it's unopened.
It's so pretty.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It is very aesthetically please, yeah, I can't deny.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
That's half of it is, yes, you know, yeah, I
have other things to do. But the other half is, Man,
it's so pretty. If I open it and don't use it,
it's gonna be soling. But I'm going to use it
at some point. But if I don't use it to
the extent that I feel I should, right, I should
empty every single jar of color like this box. It's
like a box of guash and apparently it's what Studio
(16:54):
ghibli Ghibli is ghibli Ghibli uses to paint their background.
So there's like all these cool tutorials using that set
to do stuff, so I kind of wanted to just
kind of mess around with it. But even though I haven't,
it's just a nice looking set. I think we got
it in Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I mean, like, arguably, I would
say that there are a couple of projects coming up
that you can maybe experiment on.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But yeah, it's just like wash, Like you can't. I
used to use wash back in the day, and that's.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
It's not my cup of tea by any means.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It's so there should be no one'sh is not fun.
I don't. I did okay stuff for it, but I cannot.
I'll be honest. I did cool stuff with it, okay.
I think those paintings you saw, like yeah, yeah, you know,
and that's for someone that's not like a painter. I
would never qualify myself as one, but did some cool stuff.
(17:51):
It's it's a bit unwieldy.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
You have to be disciplined, I think to and that's
why they trained us on wash. I can't stand that's
the point. Yeah, you got to be this.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
To me, like with Gash from what I remember, because
I literally have not used it since middle or no
high school. Is that it's it's unforgiving if you want
to talk about any of the under any other mediums.
I feel like, you know, with watercolor, you can add
some water to it and kind of like fake out
like lightning something, or even with a crylic you can
(18:25):
just paint over it like easy pas. Same with oil
but wash. If you mess up, then if you try
to go over it again, it just crusts up even more.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's just a bad time. Like yeah, so yeah, so, like.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
You said, maybe it's like the discipline that I would
certainly like to commit. Yeah, yeah, there's no vaccines.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Well I'm glad you explained it because that was a
good I think that's a good way for listeners to
kind of get into the mindset of why it's that's
a perfect example of a tool right there. That's a
tool where you're going to be back ties in fire
and once you get to other mediums, you're gonna be like, oh,
Like for me, oil it was just too fluid. When
(19:06):
I was messing with it, I was like, man, okay, yeah,
but the things I could do if I wasn't like
saying I can just do this digitalist so it's something
that happens in comics sometimes where and this is not
a critique, it's more observation where some artists will just say,
I don't need to put this detail in because it's
kind of look cooler with color anyway, So you just
(19:27):
you know whatever, whether it's like a detailers face and
then you know your color is is that good? Or
you could say with a with a penciler, like a
comic with penciler, the pencils stuff a certain way, and
you know they know that they're inchord they have a
good enough relationship with their inkor that their inkor can compensate.
I guess one example some would use is uh uh,
(19:51):
like somebody like Jim Lee, they say his inkor Scott Williams,
they're they're so symbiotic that he doesn't have to overwork
himself or overwork his his his pages as much as
you know, maybe he did back in the day. And
Scott Williams know he can read his mind. He knows
what he wants and he does it. So that's that's uh,
(20:14):
that's uh, tools man, Yeah, tools, just the process.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
You can listen to us on all podcast platforms.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
You can find us at paper Lab Studios on Instagram
or payperlap studios dot com, or just drop us a
line at design at paper lab studios dot com.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And support us on Patreon at paper lab Studios. Thank
you for listening to paper
Speaker 2 (20:39):
La podcast a Mango music Turn That Music Up fund
Hi, I'm Nicky McCoy and I'm an illustrator, fashion designer
and traditional artist.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Mervin McCoy, illustrator, storyteller and digital artists.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
For more than a decade, we've traveled in the convention
scene from coast to coast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We'd love to share what we've learned and are still
learning on our journey.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You're listening to paper podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You hear that music she stole it off the internet,
just kidding. It's spicy beats b E E T S
and he hates beats. Let's check you out that SoundCloud
(00:45):
to have a big question. Okay, shoot, what makes the artist?
You know? I have you know colleagues out there that
you know positive you know they're just trying to help,
but they'll suggest like this new s thing. You know,
there's whether it's a computer or you know, a program
(01:08):
or whatever, and it's like or this kind of marker
or this pen or you know, this kind of paper,
but and very important things cool help to enhance things.
But I know people that swear by these things like
it's whatever. And do you really think the tools make
the artists? Or am I crazy? Or is it something else? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
No, Well I guess I'll appoint to the elephant in
the room as somebody that regularly uses crayons to color
her work in Yeah, I would definitely say that, you know,
I think that it's fantastic that we've made a lot
(01:54):
of technological advancements and even as far as like tools go,
in terms of like pens and stuff like that, I
will arguably say that, yes, there is a noticeable there
can be a noticeable difference between you know, qualities of.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Like lead.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Pen type, Uh, you know, paint quality, et cetera, et cetera,
in terms of like the pigment use and everything. But
at the end of the day, uh, And I mean
I think this is also too because we've seen a
lot of artists work on a regular basis. The materials
definitely do not make the artist.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So and that's an interesting point, right, And maybe I'm
debating against myself here by even saying this, but I'm
not going to play Devil's advocate to the point I
just make. So would you say that it does help
with refinement? Like and maybe that depends on intent? What
(02:56):
is the intent of your work? Just how slick you
want it to look? Just what point is for example,
if I you mentioned leads, right, If I want to
get like some very smooth, you know, you know, graphite lines, right,
I want things to look more like soft, I'm going
(03:17):
to use a soft lid, right right, you know, I
want things to you know, to to smudge and whatnot
and use a soft And if I want like very
strong defined lines, I'm gonna use a harder lid. So
if I'm trying to achieve like a very uh you know,
like very realistic tone, and I want I want the values,
(03:39):
the gray values to blend. If I'm doing a black
and white pencil drawing, I'm just using a rough example,
why would I then use uh, you know, an eight
inch you know what I mean? No, you know that's
a tool.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Right there, right, I mean, well, I guess there would
be like a variety of factors, right, I guess arguably,
like the most obvious one would probably be cost. Yeah,
you know with some of like the the you know,
premiere art materials. Uh, they can get pretty pricey, you know,
depending on what it is. I know, especially for paints
(04:15):
and stuff too, like I know that you know, oil
oil paints or even like water colors can cost a
pretty penny and then you can't even just like buy
one per se, you probably have to buy multiples in
order to uh, you know, mix the colors in the
first place.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
So is that you saying that that big okay, that
barrier or that situation with those colors, right, are you saying.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Like, are you relating that to the skill in using it?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Like?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
What what what? What's what's the Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Not necessarily the skill, But I would say, like, maybe
it's just a barrier to entry. So it maybe it's
like it's not that it's there's certain like art applies
that like some artists might not necessarily have access to
depending on their skull level.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Okay, so oh okay, regardless of their skull level, I'm sorry. Yeah, okay, gotcha, gotcha.
So well, okay, that's I see that point. But well,
I will go back to the general idea though, where
I don't necessarily I don't necessarily think like, yes, not
(05:27):
having those watercolors and not having a B pencil instead
of an H means that you can't achieve the goal.
It might make it harder and it might get make
it more challenging, But I feel like a big part
of being an artist is the challenge is getting over
that hump. I'm not saying you should make things difficult
for yourself unnecessarily, but wouldn't you say sometimes it's it's
(05:52):
that that hump that kind of pushes you toward finding
new techniques, developing new ways to do things. Maybe, you know,
I mean maybe even the listeners, those that aren't artists
or maybe someone those that are, would would say sometimes
just the diversion that not having the right tool gives
(06:13):
you allows you to find new things or do new things.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, definitely, I think that, especially like if you're a
multimedia artist as well, you'll find substitutions like maybe instead
of paint for example, you know, you might use a
white outpen or like, just like substitutions like that I
think are possible.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, because I guess ultimately, you know, the philosophy of
what we're trying to say is comfort sometimes well not
sometimes comfort breeds complacency, and complacency can come from sticking
with just one way of doing things, which might be
relying too much on certain types of tools. That's not
(07:00):
trying to you know, say, oh, people shouldn't have their
disciplines or things they focus on. But like, at this
purest form. Why you create and what kind of stuff
you create is related to that.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
There's that guy that he makes sculptures with a chain saw.
Oh yeah, yeah. So it's like, oh, I might sitting
telling this, dude, you need to stop doing that. You
need to rely on like chisels, or or just do
this in a more normal way, dude, like stop using chains. No,
that's not what I'm saying. Actually, that guy probably figured
(07:36):
out he could use a chain saw by not using
the traditional tools that he was expected to use. So
he got to that point by probably experimenting. I don't
know his story, but I'm gonna maybe bed he probably
didn't just take up a chance on and say, hey,
you know what, let's make sculptures. Yeah. They I mean,
necessity is the mother of invention.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So I think that like, for example, there are artists
that use that will use found objects for example in
their work, whether it's like for sculpture or kind of
like a like a two D sort of like assemblage.
And I think that those pieces are really interesting because
it's it's their particular eye that ends up making the
(08:20):
piece in the end, because otherwise, you know, a bunch
of other people would look at the same objects and
like never be able to recreate those pieces that they make.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
That's true. It's a very complicated topic because it's not
there's no one way about it. I do think the
idea that the tools make the artists it's well and
not to be so dramatic, but then if the tools
make you what you are, then you're probably not much
of an artist. I think it's how you use the tool.
You're an application of the tool. Going back to mister chansaw,
(08:51):
which I'm sorry I don't remember the gentleman's name. Maybe
there's there's probably a ton of people that do it,
but the gentleman in particular, I don't remember his name.
But in his case, the chainsaw is not what makes
him an artist. It's his use of the It's the
fact that you can use the chance. I guarantee if
you gave him something else, he'd be able to make
masterpieces with it. And that's kind of the point. Versatility
(09:14):
is super important in in the art realm, and it
you know, yes, we're very we're being very renirwing it
down to to uh, you know, sculpting and you know,
drawing and whatnot. But that's what you mean art in general,
like as you know, art as a as an idea,
art as a practice. Uh, that's kind of what we're
(09:36):
talking to. So, whether it's decorating kicks and then you
know those people that use fonded and make all sorts
of cool stuff, or even just changing up your you know,
your your your way of you know, building a kick
or whatever it's. You know, I still think that that
requires some ability to kind of be flexible and experiment.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Arguably even more so because instead of like, for example,
like a cake decorator, like instead of just having the
ability to like sculpt with like clay or something, they
also have to take into account like the fondon and
like materials itself, like in terms of like temperature and baking.
And I like, I know that that's the whole thing,
because otherwise, like it would just melt or you know,
(10:21):
not be able to adhere properly.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
But like those cooking shows or the British Bakeoff, isn't
that like a big part of it where it's like, oh,
my thing, I can't do the thing because I need
this thing, So I'm gonna have to use this thing
to do this thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, So like that, So what you're saying, is like
the improvisation as well, like also creates.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Or is also reflective of the artists. There's creativity in
the struggle. Yeah, if that's fair. It's I'm not saying
I want people to struggle or not have the thing,
but it's it's it's interesting when people marry themselves to
a tool where the tool becomes their artistic personality. And
like I said, this is not me saying you shouldn't
(11:02):
use an iPad or whatever. That's not the point. What
I'm saying is, you know, and this goes back to
a previous episode. Uh, this is where the traditional definitely
does help and it does add some versatility to an artist,
where it does give you other things to kind of
(11:23):
work with, other other tools to fall back on. I
know a lot of a lot of people know, yeah,
all they have is digital experience. They will not draw
on paper. I've met enough younger people that will not
or don't have any experience, and you know, it terrifies
them because of the mistake aspect, right, And that's a
(11:46):
you know, not not having failure in art is very dangerous.
Like failure is probably the most important tool of art.
I'll tell you this much because maybe I've said it
on the show before, I don't remember. But you know what,
any artist's style is just a you know, mistakes that
everybody accepts. Yeah, and I think that's a very big
(12:11):
part of you know, this game. It's it's understanding seeing
the mystics actually allows you to understand you have limitations,
and knowing those limitations exist kind of give you a
bar to kind of jump over, you know what I mean,
It gives you a goal. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I mean like, yeah, well, I mean like back to
the style as well, Like essentially, an artist's style is
just an accumulation of, like I guess, like those triumphs
and failures.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, I would agree. So it's and it's a tricky
one like okay for you, what is a tool you
think you rely on too much?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I mean I don't, I don't, Well, like are you
sharpie a lot? And I mean I guess once again,
this goes back to the does the tool make the artist?
Because I'm sure that there are other equally like thick,
thicker uh at artist pens that I could use other
(13:17):
than a sharpie. There are well, and and I have
to embarrassingly admit that I just haven't really explored them
in that way. I'm I'm so used to the sharpie.
It's it's affordable, it's versatile, there's like a lot of
pros for it for me. Uh, and I just haven't
really branched out as a result.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Okay, so, but what's stopping you? Like, I mean, I've
seen your experiment with different pens and whatnot. No, not
just what what is like? Is it what would make
what would change your mind?
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I guess if I found like a superior product that
was affordable and accessible. I mean it sounds goofy, but
I'm really old fashioned and I like going into the
store and like trying things out in person. I'm very
tactle when it comes to my purchases, so I would
definitely want to be able to like try out something beforehand.
(14:16):
But I mean, really, there's nothing stopping me from like
going to an art supply store and like finding something
that could be the equivalent of a sharp ee.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
That's fair, you know, I hear that. Uh, It's interesting
because when it comes to that stuff, like with the
pens and whatnot, I you know, I'm I'm not necessarily
a ner a boat. I'll experiment I've experimented with a few,
you know, I have the ones I kind of like
using now. They're the tombo the food on a suke,
(14:48):
tombo pens. I usually use those, the heart and the
hard tip hard brush stip and the soft brush tip.
But I usually work with the hard brush tip just
so it gives me more control and I don't have
to think to my about it. But in terms of
overall lions like a tool that maybe I lean too
much on, and maybe I think relying on working between mediums,
(15:10):
like we're working between traditional and digital. There's a time
when I would just focus more, like I just do
my traditional stuff and it would just be traditional from
beginning to end. But no, I find myself doing traditional
stuff and then I'll tweak stuff in digital for whatever reasons.
(15:31):
I'm like, mm am, I do that. I know I'm
not being sloppy, but in the back of my head,
I'm like, but are you then leaving stuff off the
table in your traditional journey? Are you not experimenting as
much as you should or could you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Like, so you feel like you're missing out on something,
like you could be like pushing yourself more in the
traditional medium if you just focused on.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
That, yes, and experimenting, and it's like, oh, I would
have probably more pants, have these cool watercolor pens that
I've wanted to experiment with. But I'm like, but it
takes time. And obviously were I younger, sure and had
more free time. Yeah, but nobody has that. Everybody says that, right, yes,
I would. I would probably be messing up the place
(16:17):
with you know, watercolor experiments and this and that. And
I have this, the guash set, that wash set that
I bought that's supposed to be Miyazaki. Yeah, it's unopened.
It's so pretty.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It is very aesthetically please, yeah, I can't deny.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
That's half of it is, yes, you know, yeah, I
have other things to do. But the other half is, Man,
it's so pretty. If I open it and don't use it,
it's gonna be soling. But I'm going to use it
at some point. But if I don't use it to
the extent that I feel I should, right, I should
empty every single jar of color like this box. It's
like a box of guash and apparently it's what Studio
(16:54):
ghibli Ghibli is ghibli Ghibli uses to paint their background.
So there's like all these cool tutorials using that set
to do stuff, so I kind of wanted to just
kind of mess around with it. But even though I haven't,
it's just a nice looking set. I think we got
it in Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I mean, like, arguably, I would
say that there are a couple of projects coming up
that you can maybe experiment on.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But yeah, it's just like wash, Like you can't. I
used to use wash back in the day, and that's.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
It's not my cup of tea by any means.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It's so there should be no one'sh is not fun.
I don't. I did okay stuff for it, but I cannot.
I'll be honest. I did cool stuff with it, okay.
I think those paintings you saw, like yeah, yeah, you know,
and that's for someone that's not like a painter. I
would never qualify myself as one, but did some cool stuff.
(17:51):
It's it's a bit unwieldy.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
You have to be disciplined, I think to and that's
why they trained us on wash. I can't stand that's
the point. Yeah, you got to be this.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
To me, like with Gash from what I remember, because
I literally have not used it since middle or no
high school. Is that it's it's unforgiving if you want
to talk about any of the under any other mediums.
I feel like, you know, with watercolor, you can add
some water to it and kind of like fake out
like lightning something, or even with a crylic you can
(18:25):
just paint over it like easy pas. Same with oil
but wash. If you mess up, then if you try
to go over it again, it just crusts up even more.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's just a bad time. Like yeah, so yeah, so, like.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
You said, maybe it's like the discipline that I would
certainly like to commit. Yeah, yeah, there's no vaccines.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Well I'm glad you explained it because that was a
good I think that's a good way for listeners to
kind of get into the mindset of why it's that's
a perfect example of a tool right there. That's a
tool where you're going to be back ties in fire
and once you get to other mediums, you're gonna be like, oh,
Like for me, oil it was just too fluid. When
(19:06):
I was messing with it, I was like, man, okay, yeah,
but the things I could do if I wasn't like
saying I can just do this digitalist so it's something
that happens in comics sometimes where and this is not
a critique, it's more observation where some artists will just say,
I don't need to put this detail in because it's
kind of look cooler with color anyway, So you just
(19:27):
you know whatever, whether it's like a detailers face and
then you know your color is is that good? Or
you could say with a with a penciler, like a
comic with penciler, the pencils stuff a certain way, and
you know they know that they're inchord they have a
good enough relationship with their inkor that their inkor can compensate.
I guess one example some would use is uh uh,
(19:51):
like somebody like Jim Lee, they say his inkor Scott Williams,
they're they're so symbiotic that he doesn't have to overwork
himself or overwork his his his pages as much as
you know, maybe he did back in the day. And
Scott Williams know he can read his mind. He knows
what he wants and he does it. So that's that's uh,
(20:14):
that's uh, tools man, Yeah, tools, just the process.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
You can listen to us on all podcast platforms.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
You can find us at paper Lab Studios on Instagram
or payperlap studios dot com, or just drop us a
line at design at paper lab studios dot com.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And support us on Patreon at paper lab Studios. Thank
you for listening to paper
Speaker 2 (20:39):
La podcast a Mango music Turn That Music Up fund
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