July 3, 2025 • 22 mins
Science Fiction Versus Fantasy. Merv and Nicki fight it out over which genre reigns supreme! This one's a doozy.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Nicky McCoy and I'm an illustrator, fashion designer,
and traditional artist.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Mervin McCoy, illustrator, storyteller and digital artists.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
For more than a decade, we've traveled in the convention
scene from coast to coast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We'd love to share what we've learned and are still
learning on our journey.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You're listening to paper Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You hear that music? She stole it off the internet.
Just kidding. It's spicy beats b E E T S
and he hates beats. Let's check you out that SoundCloud.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
All right, So here we are, and we're here to
talk about some interesting topics of which I have no
IDEA surprise topic.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, So today I think we're going to define some
genres and what some other pro and cons are or
I guess.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Like whose side we're on?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
But what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
So like, for example, you know, like sometimes you go
to the movies or you pick up a book and
it falls into a certain category you know, known as genres.
So specifically today I think we wanted to talk about
fantasy versus sci fi?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Why that topic?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I think that between the two of us, we're both
advocates for or we have very strong feelings for either one.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, what do you mean strong feelings? You know, why
would you even but there is such a thing. It
sounds like a fight.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Well, I think whenever given the chance, you know, you're
always pushing for sci fi and how superior it is.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I mean, I wouldn't say superior, it's just better better.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
How So.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Okay? So I mean, so are we starting? Does that mean?
Are you is that implying that you're taking a stand
that you have a preference before I even go on
to to admit the.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Truths Oh, the truth?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Okay, well, I think my default then I have to
go to the fantasy realm and defend it.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
But do you like sci fi'?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Oh yeah, I mean like I love sci fi as well.
I mean I love a lot of the genres, but
I definitely have a soft spot for fantasy.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Okay, And I guess you know from there that kind
of gives you, you know, the idea that how superior
sci fi is that even this fantasy fan can't deny
it's amazing. So I think I would in the argument period,
the fact that I'm not going to bad for fantasy.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
All right, Nothing to see here?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Done, folks, nothing to see here?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Well, let's like back up a little bit. How would
you define the sci fi genre?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
It's complicated because I will if I'm being honest, Both
fantasy and science fiction do share similarities depending on what
you're doing, but especially when you get the things like
Star Wars where the science isn't very close to anything
related to science. But for me, sci fi and I
don't have a definition here. I don't even have my phone,
(03:08):
I have no research materials other than what I'm recording on.
For me, sci fi well, as the term said, science
fiction right, and it's birth from the idea of a
more exaggerated reality and one matter, But that's fantasy as well,
But I disagree in that. Science fiction, especially I guess
(03:32):
hard sci fi is usually an extrapolation of what can
be you know you, and it doesn't have to be
spaceships and apocalypses. It could literally just be a concept,
an idea that that's based in some kind of science
or some kind of reality, you know what I mean,
that you can define by whatever, maybe more basic human
(03:52):
rules or you know, scientific rules, and then you kind
of just build on that. For example, there's a movie well,
Gatica is probably more hard to sci fi. Let's think
of something like There's Never Let Me Go or something
like that. I can't remember. It was a movie about
well it's spoiler if you haven't seen it, but it's
a movie about like clones, right, and and that's probably
(04:14):
the most science fiction in the movie. There's no flying
cars or anything. It's just the concept is about clones,
and you know that technology and what it could be
used for, and it's like a dystopian thing, you know
what I mean. And I feel sci fi usually not
that any genre can't do this, but sci fi, even
at its most basic, usually talks about real issues in
(04:37):
a more real sense, even if you have lasers or
you know, a tower to the moon, you know, in
in the in the concept thord the story.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So what you're saying is, even if it's science site
like sci science fiction, there's like some sort of scientific
basis behind the premise. Usually yes or yes, it's not
just I mean, well, I mean I'll go on to
define fantasy, which will probably help define it as well.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, So even if it's the far flom future, like
what was that the movie Contagion, it's not a science
science science fiction movie per se, but it could be
I think it could fall into that category. Like I
only say that because it's it involves something dangerous getting
out and then they had to use you know, crazy
ways in order to contain it and or you know,
(05:31):
or an outbreak. I don't know if you remember that movie.
I use that then as an example because it didn't
require anything that people would typically consider sci fi. And
this is where people would get into, like you know,
these debates where it's like, oh, you're taking movies from
other genres, and it's like, no, we're taking a concept.
It's like even how they solve the problem, it's a
it's they used science, science that probably doesn't exist or
(05:51):
doesn't work the way that you know it does in
real life to solve the problem. And I think that's
where the science and the fiction come together. People missed
the point a lot of times where you're thinking about
spaceships and whatnot, But the science is in the time,
it's in the name.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I would say on like the fantasy genre, which is
I think kind of rooted in magical and supernatural elements,
and a lot of times, like fantasy is like strictly fictional.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
So it's it's kind of like an impossibility.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It's like the stuff there could never quote unquote like
happen or have like a scientific basis in that way,
and so like things that are explained by you know,
like spells and magic and that sort of thing. I
feel also not to say that the sci fi genre
doesn't do it as well, but with fantasy, I think
it's particularly important to have a world building element. So
(06:51):
if you even are in like a fictional realm, that
there's still sort of like a set of like rules
and parameters that like are followed in the story itself.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Okay, So and that's it. That's that's as far as
you go.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Like I mean, like arguably, I think that it's also
important to like have some sort of like quest or
adventure that perhaps like the characters go on. That seems
to be common and like a lot of the more
popular like mainstream fantasy.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Okay, And you know, I would say a disclaimer is
no way are we saying that they don't crossover or
that you know, like you know, she just said that
world building is a big part of fantasy. It's not
that world building is not a part of sci fi.
I mean, Dune, Star Wars, you know, Alien whatever like that.
(07:43):
But here's the thing, multi genre we're just speaking about
like core elements, right, and so.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
So if you're like, ah, what have you made, that's
that's it's kind of central.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, But the point is this is supposed to be
like a debate, you know, and you know in debate
you're supposed to find the strength of your argument, so
you know, and at the end of the day, yes,
we know they can all be multi dimensional things, but
sci fi is still better anyway. The point is, but
(08:16):
the point even bringing that up is, you know, I
mentioned Star Wars and Doing, and I'd say, you know,
as much as Doing is considered the greatest sci fi
novel ever created, which arguable, Yeah, it's arguable.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I think it's that's just like your opinion.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Man. Yeah, well, and I would say, and this is
where I probably I am coming down a little bit
more towards your side. I would say, it's a very
important novel. You cannot take that away from it. It's important.
It has its place in time, it has its place
in history. If you read it in the context of
when it was made and whatnot, it's like yeah, you know,
(08:53):
that's like it's it's a great achievement, and that's important.
I don't think it's all like great. But the point
being why I'm saying at is because it feels more fantasy.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, well, I mean, like it's interesting that you kept
mentioning like some of like the biggest you know, properties
like Star Wars and Dune, because I would almost argue
that those are in a way like science like sci
fi fantasy, so like they kind of like, so is
there is there like a sci fi example that you
would say is like more strictly like grounded and sci fi.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Gotta I like, and what's the premise of that?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Goatica. It's a story, a story that takes place in
a world where genetic manipulation is like at it. You know,
that's that's how things function. So if you're rich, you
can then afford to buy a baby with the best
genes that are gonna be really you know, fit and
smart and you know they can excel in life. And
(09:52):
if you're poor, you're just born regular. I'm not seen
as gross got gross soul as a result life. Yeah right,
so what what I guess the story focuses on this
astronaut and his dreams of getting to a certain planet.
I'm like one and and one astronaut is uh, you know,
(10:15):
he's been born perfect whatever blah blah blah. And the
other one is not that great. He's a and I
think he's a janitor or something like that. And one's
one's uh, you know, doesn't have use of his legs.
The perfect one doesn't have use of his legs, and
hygiene sends you. But yeah, I love that movie back
(10:37):
in the day. It's a bit slow now, Like if
you play it now for maybe like a younger quote
unquote modern audience, they'd find it pretty like, oh man,
this is worse, you know, Okay, okay, but it's still
a really good movie. I'm trying to remember one of
my other well, Blade Runner is a nice like dance
(10:59):
between you know, like one could say fantastical elements, but
you look at it and it's like, got me in.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
It's pretty sci fi. Yeah, I would, I would, Uh,
I would put that out there. Dystopian.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, it's not super hard sci fi, but it's it's
it's hard enough.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
But what about you, like, well, I mean we can't
bring up fantasy series I think without mentioning like the
Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit trilogy.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Quote unquote, but.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Why did you bring up the trilogy?
Speaker 4 (11:30):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
I was super Oh I'm so embarrassed. That was so embarrassing,
I know, I know. So we're just gonna say the
Lord of the Rings trilogy and the Hobbit.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah. No, I think that like that kind of fills
all of like the niches for defining the fantasy genre.
There's plenty of like world building, the characters are certainly
on quests and adventures. There's tons of magical and supernatural
elements and the stories and I would say it's it's
pretty well known, you know, like well enough that they've
(12:07):
not only made uh I guess, like two trilogies at
this point, but also a TV series. I mean it
wasn't for me, but but no for anyone. I feel,
I feel arguably that the books are still pretty solid
and and you know, like I think that they're also
like a really cool parallel uh for just like storytelling,
(12:31):
Like like there it's a great metaphor as well, I
think for yeah, for what the also it features positive masculinity,
so that's always a win, right, No, and a lot
of the characters, you know.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
It's like they like respect each other.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
That's just normal masculinity. I mean, I like, I mean,
I'm just you know, just just offering a thought. Yeah,
well what karc in particular came to mind when you
thought that. When you said that, I'm just okay, yeah, yeah, okay,
(13:09):
it's like, oh, bro, it was a it was brotherhood,
literal brotherhood. It was like him give me leg yeah
and then borrow meror right. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Lord of the Rings definitely stands out for me. I'm
actually reading another book right now, The White Dragon, and
that's from Anne McCaffrey's The Dragons of Pearn series. I
feel like that's a really good uh staple I guess
of like the seventies and the eighties, because she builds
like this entire world about these dragon writers that have
(13:46):
to protect their planet from well, actually, I guess it's
in a way almost a sci fi fantasy because the
dragons are protecting the planet from like a substance that
is thread, but it's really destructive. So so what you
find out is that the ancestors of these people actually
(14:09):
like helped breed the dragons to like be able to
stand up to the thread.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
So I guess there's like a sci fi.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Element in it that I never ironically realized.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
That sci fi breeding. Yeah, well they're not real, so
I think it's fine to see.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Okay, so it's not like a real creature then, okay,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
That's just my take. I mean, I'm sure somebody there
can make an argument for it being sci fi somehow.
I mean, I just I don't me personally, I don't
see it. But but I'm Accaffrey's the one that does
the books about the dragons making out right, I.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Mean, like they do have mating flights.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
But yeah, a nating flight, okay, yeah, something they about
the dinner and stuff in the sky or something as
that happened, take me out watch movies.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, why add some coffee with the dragons, wine and
dine with the dragons. But yeah, I know that's another
pivotal series.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Your bad self, and is she alive?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
You know, I'm not. I'm a bad fan, I guess
of her books, and I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Okay, well we should do a podcast about that, because
I mean, I don't think you're a bad fan for
not being obsessed with a human being like that.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
To be honest, I don't really follow a lot of
the author since director's personal lives in that way. So yeah,
but I mean like it would be interesting to have
a follow up like where are they now.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Or just you know, talk about fandom and you know,
or different takes on it. But okay, so let me
ask you a question of coming out to this, since
you know we're on opposing sides of this, and you
know this could be a fight to a very bitter end.
What name name something sci fi that you like? I mean,
and you know it could be anything one or two things.
(15:59):
It's a to you, and I guess I'll do the
same after, But name something sci fi that you like?
Uh that could change you or turn you around on
fantasy and say.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Okay, oh, I'm super glad. I didn't like bring these
up earlier because I was like, I was going to
bring up to I think like sci fi titles that
I am a fan of.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
What I would say would be Jurassic Park.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Oh yeah, that's that's fi. That is actually the perfect
example of hard sci fi. Yeah, I I hard.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I grew up probably saw the movie way too young
when when I was little, but I fell in love
with it because it was amazing, yeah, if not terrifying,
And uh, when I got a little bit older, I
read the book by Michael Crichton, and it was great
because it went into it. It was able to go
over like all of like the kind of pseudoscience that
(16:54):
they you know, kind of only topically went over in
the movie because of time. And there were like a
couple of interactions too that weren't in the movie as well.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
So it was really cool to like read that.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
For me, that'ty.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I also love dinosaurs, so bonus, And I would say
the other that probably made a really big impact on
me would probably be Enders Game.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Mmm.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
The first time I read Enders Game, I mean, man,
like that ending was so shocking, like the reveal of
finding out that you know, it's like spoiler spoilers, oh yeaholer,
oh yeah, yeah, spoiler alert. But yeah, you find out
that the main character in his play play Battles was
actually marking aliens the entire time. So uh yeah, that
(17:44):
was wild.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, all that abuse and he was doling out the
abuse anyway. Uh No, that's pretty cool. Those are some
great choices. I didn't even think of him. That's that's
pretty good, pretty good, And I.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Mean, like I think like those choices too, Like it
just it just shows a great breath of the sci
fi genre. You know. You have like one that's like
a little bit more grounded and like could quote unquote
like happen talking about Dresk Park, that is, and then
one that's you know, in like the far long future
quote unquote that talks about like an alien war.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah that's pretty good. Okay, So I have well, I
mean I have two, but I have a I have
a wild card in there, Conan Conan, the Barbaria, oh yeah,
and even books. Yeah, Colnan is great. I read a
(18:38):
few Conan novels back in the day, and it was
just a fun read.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It's just this dude walking around and just doing his
Conan things, and then all of a sudden a giant
demon snake which monster will show up and then he
has to kill it, makes money, goes to the tavern,
spends his money, is broken again, and then has to
find more work. Right, Like, it's it's a weird loop,
but it was a fun loop. And I enjoyed those books,
(19:04):
uh tremendously, you know. Pulpy Weird Goofy goodness and well
real written. I'm not sitting here when I say goofy,
I mean it's in an affectionate way. The movie Conan
and the Barbarian definitely was very influential as a kid, Like,
you know, it's cool seeing Arnold's swing that sword arone
and do his you know very I guess he's practicing
(19:26):
arm strength. That's why he spends it the run and
does this stuff. But you know, I was like, you
know what I mean, I got it. Yeah, that's cool. Okay,
all right, we can move on now you've been doing
this in the sunlight for a while. Okay, so Conan,
I guess we could also add in Krawl just kidding,
that was my joke choice. I loved Crawl as a kid.
(19:47):
But Cral is a good movie? Is it a good movie?
Is it? Is it? Probably not? But I haven't seen
it in many decades. But Krall has a soft but
in my heart, I always, you know, I think about
it from time the time, especially the scene where he
puts his hand. The people put their hand in the
thing to get Krull, and you know it happens to
those hands if you've seen Kral. But I'm jumping mediums here,
(20:10):
and I'm going to add Berserk is something that could
could have made me switch teams. But despite you know,
one might say it's horror. Yeah, it's horror as well.
It's just like you could say Gance for sci fi.
Dance is horror and sci fi. But yeah, Berserk talk
about that's not the world I want to live in.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Definitely horror.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, exactly. So Yeah, I mean, I guess i'd say
Conan and uh and and Berserk would be my thing,
and yours is Jurassic Park and there's game. Yeah, all right,
that's that's pretty good. What's what is that? Where where
we leave it? Like I wonder what the listeners think?
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Yeah, like who won?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I mean, is it about winning? Or is it just
about having a good discussion and seeing if any of
us learn something from the.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Other, good healthy discussion about genres?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, life, genres, fun facts, no fun facts. We'll see
you next time.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
You can listen to us on all podcast platforms.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
You can find us at payper Lab Studios on Instagram
or payperlab studios dot com, or just drop us a
line at design at paper lab studios dot.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Com and support us on Patreon at paper lab Studios.
Thank you for listening to.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
PA podcast A Mango Musica. Turn that music up look
Hi, I'm Nicky McCoy and I'm an illustrator, fashion designer,
and traditional artist.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Mervin McCoy, illustrator, storyteller and digital artists.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
For more than a decade, we've traveled in the convention
scene from coast to coast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We'd love to share what we've learned and are still
learning on our journey.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You're listening to paper Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You hear that music? She stole it off the internet.
Just kidding. It's spicy beats b E E T S
and he hates beats. Let's check you out that SoundCloud.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
All right, So here we are, and we're here to
talk about some interesting topics of which I have no
IDEA surprise topic.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, So today I think we're going to define some
genres and what some other pro and cons are or
I guess.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Like whose side we're on?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
But what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
So like, for example, you know, like sometimes you go
to the movies or you pick up a book and
it falls into a certain category you know, known as genres.
So specifically today I think we wanted to talk about
fantasy versus sci fi?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Why that topic?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I think that between the two of us, we're both
advocates for or we have very strong feelings for either one.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, what do you mean strong feelings? You know, why
would you even but there is such a thing. It
sounds like a fight.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Well, I think whenever given the chance, you know, you're
always pushing for sci fi and how superior it is.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I mean, I wouldn't say superior, it's just better better.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
How So.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Okay? So I mean, so are we starting? Does that mean?
Are you is that implying that you're taking a stand
that you have a preference before I even go on
to to admit the.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Truths Oh, the truth?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Okay, well, I think my default then I have to
go to the fantasy realm and defend it.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
But do you like sci fi'?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Oh yeah, I mean like I love sci fi as well.
I mean I love a lot of the genres, but
I definitely have a soft spot for fantasy.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Okay, And I guess you know from there that kind
of gives you, you know, the idea that how superior
sci fi is that even this fantasy fan can't deny
it's amazing. So I think I would in the argument period,
the fact that I'm not going to bad for fantasy.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
All right, Nothing to see here?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Done, folks, nothing to see here?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Well, let's like back up a little bit. How would
you define the sci fi genre?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
It's complicated because I will if I'm being honest, Both
fantasy and science fiction do share similarities depending on what
you're doing, but especially when you get the things like
Star Wars where the science isn't very close to anything
related to science. But for me, sci fi and I
don't have a definition here. I don't even have my phone,
(03:08):
I have no research materials other than what I'm recording on.
For me, sci fi well, as the term said, science
fiction right, and it's birth from the idea of a
more exaggerated reality and one matter, But that's fantasy as well,
But I disagree in that. Science fiction, especially I guess
(03:32):
hard sci fi is usually an extrapolation of what can
be you know you, and it doesn't have to be
spaceships and apocalypses. It could literally just be a concept,
an idea that that's based in some kind of science
or some kind of reality, you know what I mean,
that you can define by whatever, maybe more basic human
(03:52):
rules or you know, scientific rules, and then you kind
of just build on that. For example, there's a movie well,
Gatica is probably more hard to sci fi. Let's think
of something like There's Never Let Me Go or something
like that. I can't remember. It was a movie about
well it's spoiler if you haven't seen it, but it's
a movie about like clones, right, and and that's probably
(04:14):
the most science fiction in the movie. There's no flying
cars or anything. It's just the concept is about clones,
and you know that technology and what it could be
used for, and it's like a dystopian thing, you know
what I mean. And I feel sci fi usually not
that any genre can't do this, but sci fi, even
at its most basic, usually talks about real issues in
(04:37):
a more real sense, even if you have lasers or
you know, a tower to the moon, you know, in
in the in the concept thord the story.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So what you're saying is, even if it's science site
like sci science fiction, there's like some sort of scientific
basis behind the premise. Usually yes or yes, it's not
just I mean, well, I mean I'll go on to
define fantasy, which will probably help define it as well.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, So even if it's the far flom future, like
what was that the movie Contagion, it's not a science
science science fiction movie per se, but it could be
I think it could fall into that category. Like I
only say that because it's it involves something dangerous getting
out and then they had to use you know, crazy
ways in order to contain it and or you know,
(05:31):
or an outbreak. I don't know if you remember that movie.
I use that then as an example because it didn't
require anything that people would typically consider sci fi. And
this is where people would get into, like you know,
these debates where it's like, oh, you're taking movies from
other genres, and it's like, no, we're taking a concept.
It's like even how they solve the problem, it's a
it's they used science, science that probably doesn't exist or
(05:51):
doesn't work the way that you know it does in
real life to solve the problem. And I think that's
where the science and the fiction come together. People missed
the point a lot of times where you're thinking about
spaceships and whatnot, But the science is in the time,
it's in the name.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I would say on like the fantasy genre, which is
I think kind of rooted in magical and supernatural elements,
and a lot of times, like fantasy is like strictly fictional.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
So it's it's kind of like an impossibility.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It's like the stuff there could never quote unquote like
happen or have like a scientific basis in that way,
and so like things that are explained by you know,
like spells and magic and that sort of thing. I
feel also not to say that the sci fi genre
doesn't do it as well, but with fantasy, I think
it's particularly important to have a world building element. So
(06:51):
if you even are in like a fictional realm, that
there's still sort of like a set of like rules
and parameters that like are followed in the story itself.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Okay, So and that's it. That's that's as far as
you go.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Like I mean, like arguably, I think that it's also
important to like have some sort of like quest or
adventure that perhaps like the characters go on. That seems
to be common and like a lot of the more
popular like mainstream fantasy.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Okay, And you know, I would say a disclaimer is
no way are we saying that they don't crossover or
that you know, like you know, she just said that
world building is a big part of fantasy. It's not
that world building is not a part of sci fi.
I mean, Dune, Star Wars, you know, Alien whatever like that.
(07:43):
But here's the thing, multi genre we're just speaking about
like core elements, right, and so.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
So if you're like, ah, what have you made, that's
that's it's kind of central.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, But the point is this is supposed to be
like a debate, you know, and you know in debate
you're supposed to find the strength of your argument, so
you know, and at the end of the day, yes,
we know they can all be multi dimensional things, but
sci fi is still better anyway. The point is, but
(08:16):
the point even bringing that up is, you know, I
mentioned Star Wars and Doing, and I'd say, you know,
as much as Doing is considered the greatest sci fi
novel ever created, which arguable, Yeah, it's arguable.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I think it's that's just like your opinion.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Man. Yeah, well, and I would say, and this is
where I probably I am coming down a little bit
more towards your side. I would say, it's a very
important novel. You cannot take that away from it. It's important.
It has its place in time, it has its place
in history. If you read it in the context of
when it was made and whatnot, it's like yeah, you know,
(08:53):
that's like it's it's a great achievement, and that's important.
I don't think it's all like great. But the point
being why I'm saying at is because it feels more fantasy.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, well, I mean, like it's interesting that you kept
mentioning like some of like the biggest you know, properties
like Star Wars and Dune, because I would almost argue
that those are in a way like science like sci
fi fantasy, so like they kind of like, so is
there is there like a sci fi example that you
would say is like more strictly like grounded and sci fi.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Gotta I like, and what's the premise of that?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Goatica. It's a story, a story that takes place in
a world where genetic manipulation is like at it. You know,
that's that's how things function. So if you're rich, you
can then afford to buy a baby with the best
genes that are gonna be really you know, fit and
smart and you know they can excel in life. And
(09:52):
if you're poor, you're just born regular. I'm not seen
as gross got gross soul as a result life. Yeah right,
so what what I guess the story focuses on this
astronaut and his dreams of getting to a certain planet.
I'm like one and and one astronaut is uh, you know,
(10:15):
he's been born perfect whatever blah blah blah. And the
other one is not that great. He's a and I
think he's a janitor or something like that. And one's
one's uh, you know, doesn't have use of his legs.
The perfect one doesn't have use of his legs, and
hygiene sends you. But yeah, I love that movie back
(10:37):
in the day. It's a bit slow now, Like if
you play it now for maybe like a younger quote
unquote modern audience, they'd find it pretty like, oh man,
this is worse, you know, Okay, okay, but it's still
a really good movie. I'm trying to remember one of
my other well, Blade Runner is a nice like dance
(10:59):
between you know, like one could say fantastical elements, but
you look at it and it's like, got me in.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
It's pretty sci fi. Yeah, I would, I would, Uh,
I would put that out there. Dystopian.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, it's not super hard sci fi, but it's it's
it's hard enough.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
But what about you, like, well, I mean we can't
bring up fantasy series I think without mentioning like the
Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit trilogy.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Quote unquote, but.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Why did you bring up the trilogy?
Speaker 4 (11:30):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
I was super Oh I'm so embarrassed. That was so embarrassing,
I know, I know. So we're just gonna say the
Lord of the Rings trilogy and the Hobbit.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah. No, I think that like that kind of fills
all of like the niches for defining the fantasy genre.
There's plenty of like world building, the characters are certainly
on quests and adventures. There's tons of magical and supernatural
elements and the stories and I would say it's it's
pretty well known, you know, like well enough that they've
(12:07):
not only made uh I guess, like two trilogies at
this point, but also a TV series. I mean it
wasn't for me, but but no for anyone. I feel,
I feel arguably that the books are still pretty solid
and and you know, like I think that they're also
like a really cool parallel uh for just like storytelling,
(12:31):
Like like there it's a great metaphor as well, I
think for yeah, for what the also it features positive masculinity,
so that's always a win, right, No, and a lot
of the characters, you know.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
It's like they like respect each other.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
That's just normal masculinity. I mean, I like, I mean,
I'm just you know, just just offering a thought. Yeah,
well what karc in particular came to mind when you
thought that. When you said that, I'm just okay, yeah, yeah, okay,
(13:09):
it's like, oh, bro, it was a it was brotherhood,
literal brotherhood. It was like him give me leg yeah
and then borrow meror right. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Lord of the Rings definitely stands out for me. I'm
actually reading another book right now, The White Dragon, and
that's from Anne McCaffrey's The Dragons of Pearn series. I
feel like that's a really good uh staple I guess
of like the seventies and the eighties, because she builds
like this entire world about these dragon writers that have
(13:46):
to protect their planet from well, actually, I guess it's
in a way almost a sci fi fantasy because the
dragons are protecting the planet from like a substance that
is thread, but it's really destructive. So so what you
find out is that the ancestors of these people actually
(14:09):
like helped breed the dragons to like be able to
stand up to the thread.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
So I guess there's like a sci fi.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Element in it that I never ironically realized.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
That sci fi breeding. Yeah, well they're not real, so
I think it's fine to see.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Okay, so it's not like a real creature then, okay,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
That's just my take. I mean, I'm sure somebody there
can make an argument for it being sci fi somehow.
I mean, I just I don't me personally, I don't
see it. But but I'm Accaffrey's the one that does
the books about the dragons making out right, I.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Mean, like they do have mating flights.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
But yeah, a nating flight, okay, yeah, something they about
the dinner and stuff in the sky or something as
that happened, take me out watch movies.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, why add some coffee with the dragons, wine and
dine with the dragons. But yeah, I know that's another
pivotal series.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Your bad self, and is she alive?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
You know, I'm not. I'm a bad fan, I guess
of her books, and I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Okay, well we should do a podcast about that, because
I mean, I don't think you're a bad fan for
not being obsessed with a human being like that.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
To be honest, I don't really follow a lot of
the author since director's personal lives in that way. So yeah,
but I mean like it would be interesting to have
a follow up like where are they now.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Or just you know, talk about fandom and you know,
or different takes on it. But okay, so let me
ask you a question of coming out to this, since
you know we're on opposing sides of this, and you
know this could be a fight to a very bitter end.
What name name something sci fi that you like? I mean,
and you know it could be anything one or two things.
(15:59):
It's a to you, and I guess I'll do the
same after, But name something sci fi that you like?
Uh that could change you or turn you around on
fantasy and say.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Okay, oh, I'm super glad. I didn't like bring these
up earlier because I was like, I was going to
bring up to I think like sci fi titles that
I am a fan of.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
What I would say would be Jurassic Park.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Oh yeah, that's that's fi. That is actually the perfect
example of hard sci fi. Yeah, I I hard.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I grew up probably saw the movie way too young
when when I was little, but I fell in love
with it because it was amazing, yeah, if not terrifying,
And uh, when I got a little bit older, I
read the book by Michael Crichton, and it was great
because it went into it. It was able to go
over like all of like the kind of pseudoscience that
(16:54):
they you know, kind of only topically went over in
the movie because of time. And there were like a
couple of interactions too that weren't in the movie as well.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
So it was really cool to like read that.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
For me, that'ty.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I also love dinosaurs, so bonus, And I would say
the other that probably made a really big impact on
me would probably be Enders Game.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Mmm.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
The first time I read Enders Game, I mean, man,
like that ending was so shocking, like the reveal of
finding out that you know, it's like spoiler spoilers, oh yeaholer,
oh yeah, yeah, spoiler alert. But yeah, you find out
that the main character in his play play Battles was
actually marking aliens the entire time. So uh yeah, that
(17:44):
was wild.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, all that abuse and he was doling out the
abuse anyway. Uh No, that's pretty cool. Those are some
great choices. I didn't even think of him. That's that's
pretty good, pretty good, And I.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Mean, like I think like those choices too, Like it
just it just shows a great breath of the sci
fi genre. You know. You have like one that's like
a little bit more grounded and like could quote unquote
like happen talking about Dresk Park, that is, and then
one that's you know, in like the far long future
quote unquote that talks about like an alien war.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah that's pretty good. Okay, So I have well, I
mean I have two, but I have a I have
a wild card in there, Conan Conan, the Barbaria, oh yeah,
and even books. Yeah, Colnan is great. I read a
(18:38):
few Conan novels back in the day, and it was
just a fun read.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It's just this dude walking around and just doing his
Conan things, and then all of a sudden a giant
demon snake which monster will show up and then he
has to kill it, makes money, goes to the tavern,
spends his money, is broken again, and then has to
find more work. Right, Like, it's it's a weird loop,
but it was a fun loop. And I enjoyed those books,
(19:04):
uh tremendously, you know. Pulpy Weird Goofy goodness and well
real written. I'm not sitting here when I say goofy,
I mean it's in an affectionate way. The movie Conan
and the Barbarian definitely was very influential as a kid, Like,
you know, it's cool seeing Arnold's swing that sword arone
and do his you know very I guess he's practicing
(19:26):
arm strength. That's why he spends it the run and
does this stuff. But you know, I was like, you
know what I mean, I got it. Yeah, that's cool. Okay,
all right, we can move on now you've been doing
this in the sunlight for a while. Okay, so Conan,
I guess we could also add in Krawl just kidding,
that was my joke choice. I loved Crawl as a kid.
(19:47):
But Cral is a good movie? Is it a good movie?
Is it? Is it? Probably not? But I haven't seen
it in many decades. But Krall has a soft but
in my heart, I always, you know, I think about
it from time the time, especially the scene where he
puts his hand. The people put their hand in the
thing to get Krull, and you know it happens to
those hands if you've seen Kral. But I'm jumping mediums here,
(20:10):
and I'm going to add Berserk is something that could
could have made me switch teams. But despite you know,
one might say it's horror. Yeah, it's horror as well.
It's just like you could say Gance for sci fi.
Dance is horror and sci fi. But yeah, Berserk talk
about that's not the world I want to live in.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Definitely horror.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, exactly. So Yeah, I mean, I guess i'd say
Conan and uh and and Berserk would be my thing,
and yours is Jurassic Park and there's game. Yeah, all right,
that's that's pretty good. What's what is that? Where where
we leave it? Like I wonder what the listeners think?
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Yeah, like who won?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I mean, is it about winning? Or is it just
about having a good discussion and seeing if any of
us learn something from the.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Other, good healthy discussion about genres?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, life, genres, fun facts, no fun facts. We'll see
you next time.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
You can listen to us on all podcast platforms.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
You can find us at payper Lab Studios on Instagram
or payperlab studios dot com, or just drop us a
line at design at paper lab studios dot.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Com and support us on Patreon at paper lab Studios.
Thank you for listening to.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
PA podcast A Mango Musica. Turn that music up look
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